BiggerPockets Money Podcast - The One Thing Most FIRE Chasers Get Wrong (and Later Regret in Retirement)

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

Why do so many in early retirement struggle with happiness? We know you’ve told yourself, “Once I hit FIRE, I’ll be living the dream! Every day will be like a vacation.” This is what Mindy was telling herself for years before becoming financially independent, and once she hit her goal, she realized life’s same problems still exist. If you’re FI already, this may sound familiar. So, how do you enjoy the path to early retirement so that when you reach your financial goal, the party doesn’t stop? Jordan Grumet, AKA Doc G, practiced full-time medicine for years but wasn’t completely satisfied, even with financial success. After reflecting on his “purpose,” he found that hospice medicine brought him true fulfillment. Through conversations with patients on their deathbeds, Jordan uncovered a common thread: most regrets stemmed from not living a purposeful life, regardless of financial achievement. In his new book, The Purpose Code, Jordan walks you through exercises that uncover your view on purpose, success, financial freedom, and what it means to truly “win” in life. His goal? Make sure you enjoy every day on the path to financial freedom so that when you get there, you know exactly how to live the life you love. If you want to reach FIRE happy, less stressed, and full of energy to live your early retirement life, we’ve got what the doctor ordered. In This Episode We Cover Why even the wealthiest people in the world are still so unhappy (and what they’re missing) Why money is NOT the only tool you can use to find lifelong happiness  The four “anchors” you can use to find your life’s purpose before it’s too late How to enjoy the path to financial freedom without burning out or pushing through unhappiness The number one thing in life that leads to humans being happy (it’s completely free) And So Much More! Links from the Show Mindy on BiggerPockets Scott on BiggerPockets Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Join BiggerPockets for FREE Email Mindy: [e-mail] Email Scott: [e-mail] BiggerPockets Money Facebook Group Jordan’s Website Land More Off-Market Deals with Crucial Property Owner Contact Information from DealMachine Buy “The Purpose Code” Find an Investor-Friendly Agent in Your Area The “Deathbed Toolkit” That Makes Building Wealth Much More Enjoyable w/Doc G (00:00) Intro (04:39) The Comparison Trap (06:38) You're Getting "Purpose" Wrong (10:16) How to Start Enjoying Life (14:07) The Reason So Many Aren't Happy (23:30) The Huge Impact of "Little" Purpose (29:10) Purpose Exercises (30:52) Finding Your Community (33:54) Connect with Jordan! (34:27) Find Purpose BEFORE FI! Check out more resources from this show on BiggerPockets.com and https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/money-601 Interested in learning more about today’s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jordan Grummet, also known as Doc G, wrote a book a few years ago called Taking Stock, which focused on looking inward and figuring out who you really are. His follow-up called The Purpose Code was written because once you figure out who you are, you then need to figure out what you're meant to do with your life. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen, and with me, as always, is my purposeful co-host, Scott Trench. Thanks, Mindy. Looking forward to a very intentional podcast with you.

in Doc G today. Bigger Pockets has a goal of creating one million millionaires and you are in the right place if you want to get your financial house in order and make it as meaningful as possible once you get there because we truly believe financial freedom and purpose are attainable for everyone no matter when or where you're starting. Today we're going to discuss how to combat the feeling that walking away from a job after reaching financial freedom is somehow a bad thing. And we're going to talk about how comparison is the thief of joy when it comes to finding your purpose. Doc G, we are super excited to have you on the Bigger Pockets Muddy podcast again today. How's it going and welcome back?

Thank you so much for having me. Scott and Mindy, two of my favorite people because we have these great conversations, so I'm just happy to be here. Okay, Jordan, all right. You are uniquely qualified as this kind of, I use the phrase life philosopher, I guess, is the way I would describe you in a way that very few people really have, you have credentials that really people don't get access to in a lot of ways. Could you just? just give us a quick overview of your background and how that is translated to your FI journey and what you think about and what you write about and talk about in a regular basis? I often laugh when I tell people I'm a hospice doctor who's also a personal finance expert,

two things that don't really go well together, but they actually do. So I had trained for and became a doctor and at some point got burned out and realized that this wasn't fitting me. It didn't fit my version of identity or purpose. and at that time I discovered the financial independence movement and pivoted. It took a number of years, but I eventually pulled back from medicine, kept the only thing that really felt purposeful, which was being a hospice doctor. I would do it even if I wasn't being paid for it.

So I kept doing that, but then dove into a blog and eventually a podcast about personal finance. And on my podcast, I'd have people like you guys, these financial independence experts, these entrepreneurs, these really successful, people who would talk all about, how to accumulate wealth, but often when we started talking about things like, what does enough look like, or why do I want all this money, there are a lot of pauses. And strangely enough, I found that the people who had the answers to those type of questions weren't always my finance people. It was actually my dying patients who I was taking care of in hospice. They could sit back and say, boy, now I'm at the end of my life. I really regret that I didn't do XYZ.

And that sounded really purposeful to me. And so I started thinking about this with my first book, taking stock. Really the main premise is what the dying could teach us about money and life. And a big part of that was that we should be putting purpose identity and connections first. Now, little did I know that when I went to market that book, I would get angry. People would come up to me after my talks and say, you keep on telling me to find my purpose. And I don't know what my purpose is. And it's making me anxious. Please stop telling me to find my purpose. That obviously sent me down the rabbit hole, which eventually became my book, the purpose code. And really my goal, was think about this.

Financial independence used to be something no one understood, and then we had all these wonderful people like you guys who made it clear, like these are the steps, this is what you do. Real estate used to be something sort of a black box. We knew it was powerful, but we didn't know how to start. And then bigger pockets comes along and says, these are the steps, this is what you do. The problem is we're at that same inflection point with purpose.

We know purpose is important, but there's never really been someone who's kind of laid it out and said, this is how you develop a life of purpose. And so that was really my whole goal is to make it as obvious and straightforward as financial independence or real estate is. I wanted purpose to feel that way. Jordan, the purpose code really does feel like the logical next step after you read taking stock, you've done the homework. I don't think anybody should be reading either of these books in like one sitting. Just, whom, okay, now I'm done. What's next? I think they are, I say this very lovingly. They're. heavy reads. They're not your typical finance book. They really want you. You really are trying to

get people to look inward and see more of, you know, what makes them tick, what makes them happy. And one of the things that is, I'm starting to see a lot of articles popping up with social media and the negative impact that it has on children, on teens, on everybody. What impact do you think social media and the perfect Instagramed life has on finding your true purpose. I think it has everything to do with it and a big reason why we have so much anxiety. Look, exactly like you said, thinking about purpose is not straightforward and it is a little bit of the heavy lift. And a lot of us don't want to do that. And so we're sitting around thinking purpose is like this all or nothing thing that either we figure it out and we live a great life or we don't figure it out and everything

is lost. And since we don't know how to figure it out, what do we do? We go to Instagram, we go to TikTok, and we try to grab onto someone else's version of purpose. We can't figure out what ours is, but hey, those six-pack abs looks great. Maybe I need to be in the gym. Hey, that eight-figure business, I could have an eight-figure business. Let's get going. Or, hey, that person is a digital nomad, and they're traveling the world and going to a new country every week. Hey, I could do that.

Here's the problem. First of all, there's nothing unique in there for us. It's actually someone trying to sell us in either a product or to get more followers. So they're selling us on this ideal. They're trying to get us to co-opt their version of purpose. But a lot of times those things aren't even reachable for most of us. Like in order to run an eight-figure business, you have to be the right person at the right time saying the right things, have pretty good genetics and be really lucky.

And some of us just don't have either all of those things in place or don't have the energy or the real interest in doing that. So when we model ourselves after these people, we're saying, setting ourselves up to feel anxious and probably not succeed. And the worst thing about purpose is this idea that I could fail it and everything will be lost. It actually keeps us from even searching because it feels so heavy. Okay. So Jordan, how do you define purpose? Because simply having six-pack abs is not purpose. So here's the thing. Let me tell you how I don't define it. And then let me tell you how I do define it. Colloquially, basically people think of purpose as the why.

Like, why do we do what we do? But actually, I think purpose is simply doing action in the present and future that fills you up. So purpose is as simple as doing things we love to do. Why do I think defining it as our why is not so great? Because, again, it becomes really high stakes. It's like there's this one thing that should be my why, and either I find it and we're like totally happy or I don't find it and live a miserable life. It sets us up to feel bad and anxious. And I think it's a lot more simple than that.

It's just what could I really enjoy the process of doing? And let's start building that into our life. That's simple. In your book, you say, you've got this quote that I think is so, like, written directly at me. Thank you. You say, I had failed to realize that the destination is the way. And the path is more important than its culmination.

I can't tell you how seen I feel by that comment because I did not enjoy the path. I was solely focused on the destination. I think the fire movement, especially the early fire movement, really gets this wrong. What advice would you give for someone who is in the middle or near the end of their journey and just discovering this too? So look, I think winning the game is spending as much time as you can doing things that light you up and that are exciting and getting rid of things you loathe. So if you are like one of those old fire people, right, someone who's like, I'm going to grind. it out. I'm going to work really hard. I don't like my job, but I can make the most money this way in order to get to a goal. Here's the problem. You're going to spend 95% of your time doing something

you don't like. And so all that time, and remember, you know, time passes no matter what you do. So you can't buy it, you can't sell it, you can't trade it. Time just passes. And so if you're filling all that time up with things you don't like doing, a few things can happen. One, you could be like my father who died at 40, which means you might die before you ever actually get to the pot of gold. That's the first problem. The second problem is we all know that when you get to that goal, you generally aren't happy that long. So when you finally hit fire and you're like, I have enough money and I can quit this job I don't like, you tend to habituate back down to your baseline level of happiness fairly quickly. It might be a few days. It might be a few weeks. But then you find that basically you're

still not where you want to be. So the key here is that if we kind of set ourselves on these goals, once you reach the goal, once you habituate down to your baseline level happiness, you have to like set another bigger goal. And that sets us off doing the same thing all over again and then not enjoying 95% of what we do to hit that bigger goal. And then the same thing happens. And if you think this doesn't happen, I mean, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Donald Trump, I mean, you can name all these people.

Basically, there are tons of people in pop culture who've achieved amazing, awesome, cool things. They've made tons and tons of money. And yet we look at them and you're like, boy, you don't look particularly. happy. Yeah, no, none of those people you just listed off seem like they're having a great time at life, even though they have a lot of money. And they're supremely successful. Not just money, but they've actually achieved amazing things. But it doesn't seem to fill them up. After a quick break, we're going to get into the differences in purpose and how this can impact your fire journey

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30-day trial at audible.com slash BP money. All right, we're jumping back in with Jordan Grummet. You said, stop, basically paraphrasing, do less of the things you hate and more of the things you love as as and that sounds like a guiding principle that we're going to dive into here can you give us like a way to maybe begin begin practically implementing that here's the thing and i get hit with this question all the time well that's a privilege thing for you to say you're a doctor you're financially independent of course you can do more of what you love and less of what you hate but i'm 22 years old i can barely make enough money to you know get food on the table

that's not an option for me okay so here's what i say to those people I think we look at money as the most important tool, and it is a very important tool in living the life we want, but it's only one of many tools, and we have other tools in our tool belt. And so we have our relationships, our passions, our youth, our energy, our skills. Those are all tools, too. And so if we look at winning the game is basically improving the things we love that feel purposeful and getting rid of the things we loathe, what we can toggle between is trying to fill up that time. I call them time slots, right? We're talking about months, years, days, whatever they are. Fill up our different time slots with as meaningful activity as possible and get rid of the

stuff we don't like. So we use these tools to do this. So money is a great tool. If I have money and I don't like cleaning my house on Saturday, I could hire someone else to do it, and then I can fill that time with something more meaningful. That's obvious. That's money. But we also have these other tools and these other levers that we can use.

So what do I mean by that? Well, if you're 22 years old and you hate your job, but at 22 as opposed to me who's 51, you're not married. You don't have kids. You don't have a mortgage. So you can work 50, 60 hours a week and still have some energy and some time to do something on the weekend. Maybe you add in some purposeful activity.

Maybe you do something that lights you up a little bit. Maybe try to turn into side hustle, but you don't have to. If all you do is add in three more purposeful hours a week, you're still winning the game because you've used the joy of addition to add in more purposeful activities in your life, even if you haven't changed your job. But let's say after six months of doing that, you also happen to make a little bit of money. Maybe it becomes a side hustle. And that gives you a touch of margin so you can start doing your job four days a week instead of five days a week.

Now you've used the art of subtraction to get rid of something you don't like, and you've added in something you do like. And what you're doing is you're continuously refining to win the game more and more. And we all can do this. The tools we talked about, there's tons of them. The levers are the joy of addition, the art of subtraction and substitution. So let's look at this practically. So you're not adding in any joyful activity because you don't know what to do outside of work. And you look at your job and you're like, I don't like my job.

And so what I say is, you know what, write out all the roles and responsibilities, all 20 things you have to do on a weekly basis. Take a pencil and scratch out everything you don't like and see if there's anything left. And a lot of times there'll be one or two things you actually do like. And then the question becomes, can you start doing more of those at work and less of the other things? perfect example I give this all the time is let's see you work at a restaurant and you hate working at the counter because you don't like taking you know people's orders and things like that but you like doing stock room every Thursday for two hours when you have to restock the restaurant well if your manager happens to manage four different restaurants could you say look I will stock every restaurant I'll go to each restaurant each day and I'll do the stock room for a few hours because I really like that and I'm going to spend less time at the counter helping customers boom right there, you've actually done less things you don't like. You started doing more things you do like, and you're slowly winning the game. And our goal really is to continue doing this throughout our

career throughout our lives until one day we look at our schedule and realize everything there is something we put there that we want to do that lights us up. And there are very few things on that schedule that we don't want to do. I think that that restaurant analogy really registers. We have this concept of at work figuring out how to find purpose. One of the things that I think comes up often on the bigger pockets money show here is the concept of financial independence and what do we do once we leave work or retire early at that future point and what are some tools that you'd have for developing maybe more meaning past that right because I can think of things I like doing that excite me and those types of things but I also I'm I'm financially

independent because I am a good long-term planner because I have I have I'm a good long-term planner because I have I can commit to something for a decade and grind it out and move those things. And there are big goals that feel like they should be purposeful in here. How do I kind of move into that direction? Because I do think, I don't know, but I do think that on my deathbed, there will be some, there will be some things that I'll be wanting to, the accomplishments or work that I'll have wanted to put out in my life that I'll want to have completed in that pine. How do I find that and discover that?

So let me first talk about the difference between big P purpose and little P purpose, Because as we said, purpose can be anxiety-provoking, and I think Big P-Purpose is very anxiety-provoking, and little P-Purpose actually is much less anxiety-provoking, and it probably is associated with what the studies show, which is longevity, health, and happiness. So let's talk about the difference of what those are, and then we can talk about how you build the life of purpose around them. So Big P-Purpose is much more goal-oriented. It's usually all or nothing, and because in America, we think if you can think it, you can build it, we tend to go for really big achievements, like becoming a billionaire, or having those

six-pack abs or running that eight-figure business or becoming president. The problem with those type of goals as the version of purpose is they're really hard to achieve. They're very easy to fail. And usually they're all or nothing. You either get there or you don't. And so a lot of times this leaves people very anxious when they aren't the right person at the right time with a lot of luck and the right genetics. They don't really have agency.

Little P. Purpose, on the other hand, is purpose associated with process and not goals. So what we're really talking about is doing things that light you up as you do. them instead of being all or nothing, they're all or all because they're incredibly abundant. There are a million things you can enjoy the process of doing, whereas Big P purpose is a little bit more scarce because you either get there or you don't, and there's a lot of people fighting to get to the top of the mountain. So the bigger question then is, well, how do you develop a life of purpose? And I said develop, right?

Because I don't think we find our purpose. We build or create it. But it is true that we have to have these anchors or these inklings, these things that light us up, that we want to then build a life of purpose around. And so the better question is, well, how do we figure out what our purpose anchors are? And in the book, I talk about three or four different ways we can do that. My dying patients taught me about regret. So regret and a dying person is really sad and frustrating because they can't do anything about it.

But if you can think today about what you would regret if you died next week, you can then take that and turn it into a purpose anchor. For me, that was writing a book in traditionally publishing. If I had died five years ago, I would have really regretted that I never, got into the arena and tried to write that book and traditionally publish it. And so I knew that five years ago, so I could turn that into a purpose anchor and build a life of purpose around it, which became taking stock and now the purpose code. That's a really easy way.

Look at regrets. Another way we already talked about this a little bit is the artist subtraction. Look at work. Get rid of everything you don't like. Is there something you love? If so, build a life of purpose around that. For me, that was hospice. When I got rid of everything I didn't like about being a doctor, I did love doing

hospice medicine. I would do it even if I wasn't being paid for it. So that was a great way to find purpose anchors. Another one is joys of childhood. Think back about what your childhood room look like. What were the trophies? What were the pictures? What were the paintings?

A lot of times kids pursue purpose without fears and without worrying about what they're going to become for a living. But we abandon those as we get older. For me, that was baseball cards. I loved baseball cards as a kid. If I ever feel like I need to build more purpose in my life, I could go back to collecting baseball cards. Last but at least is the spaghetti method.

And Scott, I've heard you talk about this. like sign up for stuff you normally don't do. Hang out with people you normally don't hang out with, throw a bunch of spaghetti against the wall and see what sticks. And if you find that you like something, you can start building purpose around that. So those are some ways to find purpose anchors. Now, a big part of your question is, look, I do better

when I have these big goals and achievement is important to me. What I tell people is you can pursue little P purpose, do something you enjoy the process of doing. You can still set big goals. But the key is you don't want your happy. or your version of achievement to only rely on meeting or not meeting those goals. You want to really enjoy what you are doing. And so if you're financially independent and you're like, well, I don't want to just sit

around, think about what would light you up. And then if you want to make some big goals around it, I think that's great. But make sure that you still love the process of doing what you're doing regardless of whether you hit the goals or not. Because if you start hating what you're doing in retirement, because you're like, I need to hit this goal because that'll mean that life is good. You're going to spend a lot of time doing things you don't like the process of doing just for possibly hitting that goal, which you might or might not hit. And even if you do hit, you're going to be looking for that next goal right after you do.

Really powerful advice there. Lots of good tips and tricks. I think for me, I have a huge, I don't know if this is the case, but maybe you could coach me on this, actually. I have a big list of lifetime goals in a bunch of different categories, right? family, relationships, lifestyle, fitness, mental, business, financial around there. And my belief right now is that I'll regret not having completed many of those, or as many of those as is reasonable around there. How close will I be in your experience with the people who have actually ended, you know, that ended up there and reflecting in these positions?

So here's the thing. I believe you have what's called a meaning process. as opposed to a purpose problem. Many people in your situation think they have a purpose problem, and often they come to me for coaching for that. So let me explain what the difference is. I think happiness is a mix of two things, meaning and purpose, and meaning and purpose are not the same thing, although lots of people think they are. Meaning is how we cognitively think about our past.

It's the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, and it's a journey to feeling enough. Let me explain. Happy people tend to tell themselves. a heroic story about themselves. They see their hardships and their traumas and their things in their past and they say, I was enough on some level and that's where I got to where I am today

and I'll continue to be enough in the present and future because I was in the past. That's happy people. Unhappy people tend to tell themselves a victim story. They say, I had these traumas, I had these difficult times and I was thwarted and I'll continue to be thwarted and that's why I am where I am now

and they see the present and future is also a place where they won't be able to get what they want to get. They see themselves as not enough. The problem with a lot of people is they have a meaning issue. They don't feel enough inside, and they try to solve it with purpose. Purpose is not about the past and it's not about the thoughts. It's about the present and future, and it's about actions. It's doing the things we like to do that light us up. If you're struggling with meaning and you skip that part, you don't go to therapy,

you don't rewrite some of those narratives about your childhood. You don't address them. If you just skip that and you try to go to purpose, that's where we get the Steve Jobs and the Elon Musk and these kind of people who they keep on trying to purpose their way to happiness, they try to purpose their way to enough. And what that looks like is if I just achieve these things, I'll be able to check the box and say, I'm good enough.

If I just make it to a billion, I'm good enough. If I just build the business, I'm good enough. The problem is it doesn't work. Because you achieve these things. If you're lucky, right, if you really push and you really grind, you achieve these things. But it doesn't solve the problem. And so you have to double down and achieve even more. Listen, I walked this path.

When my dad died at seven, I was a little kid and I saw the world through the lens of, I must be responsible. So I decided the way I was going to cosmically fix this is to become a doctor. That became what I would call my big P purpose. and I worked hard and I grinded it out and I'm like, if I just become a doctor, it's going to solve this thing that happened to me as a kid and guess what? I got there and it didn't solve anything. I was just a doctor who still felt bad about my dad's death.

The way to fix that was not to save more people or to become the head of medicine or to become a super doctor. The way to deal with that is I had to go back and rewrite that story and realize my dad died because he died and I was just a good kid who went through this trauma and I can let myself off the hook and realize I was good enough back then. I'm good enough now. I don't have to prove anything with my sense of purpose. I can just joyfully walk into purpose and do the things that I really love doing. And that's enough. All right. After a quick break, we will be back again with Jordans. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their

full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code Pockets.

What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves in Edle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code Pockts at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at Monarch.com code pockets. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday.

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automatic. They never sell your data and all services are handled in-house because privacy by default is their pledge to all customers. Visit Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free. Thanks for sticking with us. Let's get back into it. It's very powerful what you're saying here. And I'm also, you know, my brain doesn't really doesn't really work in the same way with that, right? I don't know, like, I don't know, like, if I, I don't know if I struggle with a meaning or whatever issue there. I think what I'm hearing

you say is these big goals. You said it was like this American concept, you know, of big goals there is, is big purpose. And then little purpose is really what it's all about, replacing the things that are making you unhappy with the things that do make you happy. I guess help me with the quintessential fire. American goal setting mentality here, how do I translate what you're saying there with a little P into something that I can action against if, for example, I'm not struggling with the meaning component? So here's the point. If you're no longer trying to prove your worthiness with goals, you can still have goals. In fact, you can still have big audacious goals. But the point is

that the activities you do to get to those goals are things you deeply love and excite you and light you up. And you almost become goal agnostic. It's like you can set that goal. But the truth of the matter is you like what you're doing so much. If you reach that goal, great. And if you don't reach that goal, you enjoyed what you're doing. So I give you a perfect example. For me, it's podcasting. I love podcasting. From the moment I get behind the mic and I'm going to interview someone to the hour until it's done, I love every second of that. That to me is little purpose. Now, I could set a goal of having a million downloads a week or a million downloads a month, and that could be a big audacious version of purpose, as long as I still love getting

in front of the microphone, regardless of anyone listens or not, having that goal doesn't detract from it. On the other hand, if I start seeing that goal of having a million downloads a week or month, and I'm like, okay, well, to get there, I'm going to have to start doing social media. I'm going to have to start doing TikTok videos and Instagram videos. Guess what? I hate doing that. And so if I spend an hour doing this thing I love recording the podcast, but then I spend the next

seven hours on social media doing things I hate in service of this goal, I've kind of already lost the game, even if I make it to the goal. Because you know once I make it to a million downloads a week, I'll be happy for like a second, and then I'm going to want two million downloads a week, which means I'm going to have to double down and spend even more time on social media, which I hate, or more time marketing myself, which I hate, or whatever it is. And so I don't mind the goal, but when you start twisting your daily activities, not to do things you love or enjoy, but to do them because you think they're going to get you there and it makes you unhappy, that's when you lose. And isn't that the point of financial independence so that we can

stop doing things we don't like doing? I love it. That makes perfect sense. It's about, it's not about the workout moving you towards this fitness goal or whatever. It's about I like doing, I did a workout today because I like doing workouts. And I got it done. And now, the goal is to do workouts that you love, not to get to the fitness plateau. So this is a helpful distinction for me on this, and I think that that means that we need to rebrand to happy pockets. Well, here's the thing. It's a happy side effect, but a lot of times you actually reach heights and goals you

didn't think you would reach. Because when you do things that light you up, other people are attracted to you. Like a moth to a flame, people want to collaborate with you. If they have something to teach you, they want to teach you. And if they have something to learn from you, they want to be your student. And when you do these things that light you up, a lot of times your impact and legacy, believe it or not, grows. You think, boy, little people sounds a little selfish and I want impact. I want to change the world.

But I'm here to tell you, some of the people who made the biggest changes in the world aren't people who did it because they wanted to change the world. They did it because it was deeply important for them to do these things. and once you do them and it lights you up, you can't help but change the people around you. And unlike making a billion dollars, we know what happens to a billion dollars, from shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations.

Generally, by the third generation, they've lost your money. But when you build a life of purpose and your kids and grandkids see you and model that behavior and they build the life of purpose also, that stuff lasts. So let's forget changing the world for a second here. and I just want to selfishly ask for some help with my goals, because I'm setting the 20, 25 goals here with this. And I'm learning here. This is super valuable and a really powerful concept here.

I have a goal here that reads, for fitness, regularly participate in a variety of sports. I play with friends throughout my adult life. That's a good, that's a little purpose goal. Yes, that is a process-oriented goal, which I love. And then my other goal right next to it in fitness is way no more than 180 pounds by March 31st, run this time for the mile, and PR my FTP test on the bike. That is a big purpose goal that is like I have them right next to each other as a dichotomy there. Yeah. But it doesn't have to be.

When does it become bad? It's great if you meet that 180 pound goal by hanging out with friends and exercising and cooking good meals with your family and all the stuff that. lights you up. If you meet that 180 pound goal by going on a horrible, horrendous diet that isn't good for you and skipping meals and doing things that aren't healthy, that's when it becomes bad. So again, we're really talking about process. Goals aren't bad. They're only bad when they twist kind of what you do from day to day into something you don't like doing or something that's unhealthy for you. So I don't think the goals are bad. You just have to make sure you enjoy the process of doing those things. That's all. This is awesome advice. Thank you. I'm going to, I have

homework to do follow in this episode. Scott, as you go through this book at the end of every chapter, there are homework assignments. Audits is what Doc G calls them. I'm sorry, audits is what Jordan calls them. And they are not easy. Jordan, how long do you think somebody should take to go through this book? I mean, it's not just to flip right through it and you're done kind of read. You know, it's funny. The text without the exercises is meant to be a very fast, clear read. The exercises are meant to be a little more difficult. Here's the reason why.

This is a highly philosophical conversation. But if all we do is the philosophy, it's really hard to get your hands around how we carry this out in real life. And so I wanted the text to be the philosophy, and then the exercises to be the hands-on real life things you can do to move the ball forward. And so the reading of the text, I expect, will be fairly quick. The exercises, I say marinate in them. Do it for a week or two. Do it.

I would tell people, don't do it for more than an hour at a time, maybe a little more, but then put it down and pick it up the next day or the next week. These are things you can really kind of slowly move through. And the idea is they start sparking your brain about how you, A, interpret the world, around you, how you look for purpose as opposed to create it, and how you could change that into creating more purpose in your life and looking at that schedule and saying, boy, I spend a lot of time doing things I don't want to do. How can we make this better? Because you don't want to spend your whole life doing things you don't want to do. I love that. Jordan, another thing

I really like is that you talk about community and building communities of purpose. My community is so important to me. And I truly believe that in-person, five events are super important for anybody on the path to financial independence, just so you've got these connections with people who are all across the country, all across the world, who are doing the same thing that you're doing. So how do you suggest someone go about finding a community or creating a community of purpose? Well, here's the great thing. You don't actually have to go out and find it at all. Just do things you love and you will automatically connect to people. Again, when you are lit up, people are attracted to you. And we all know this because when we all started doing things we

loved, all the sudden, we started making friends. Look, I spent a lot of my childhood and early adulthood becoming a doctor and it didn't light me up at all. And guess what? I had very few communities. I spent all my time with doctors, but I didn't get to know them really deeply. I hated hanging out in the doctor's lounge it never felt good to me the minute i discovered personal finance and started doing more communicating that's the podcasting and the blogging etc i went to some of the same personal finance conferences you do and i connected with people on a deeper level than some of the doctors i had known for decades just within minutes the point is when you start doing things that really light you up you can't but help find communities people are drawn to you and you're drawn to

them and this is really where happiness lies. So the Harvard adult developmental health study started in the 1900s and they pretty much tracked first Harvard students, then their families, then people in the greater Boston area's controls. And they started by doing questionnaires every two years. But as technology improved, they started doing blood tests, MRIs, EEGs, and they started tracking what makes people happy. And after 80 years of data, they found that it wasn't money. It wasn't your job. It wasn't achievements. What it was was interpersonal connections. It's communities. It's the people you're connected to. Now, I would argue a main argument of my book is if you pursue little P-purpose, it's a great conduit to communities. Jordan, that is just about the most perfect

place to end this conversation. I think we, the surface level covered a lot of what you cover in the book. And I really enjoyed reading it. I haven't done any of the homework yet. But I am gearing up to dive into that homework. And I feel like in the beginning, it's going to be a little heavy. And near the end, it's going to be this like, oh, I have this epiphany of what I want to do, as opposed to this slog to get the homework done. And, oh, great, now I've got another assignment. Like, I think each homework assignment is, like you said, meant to make you really think.

And I've been so focused on my goal that I haven't sat down and just thought about my purpose. So I'm super excited to dive into this book. For people who don't have the advanced reader copy, where can they find it? Easiest place to go is Jordan Grummet.com. That's J-O-R-D-A-N-G-R-U-M-E-T.com. There you can find links to both of my books, taking stock and the purpose code, as well as all the places I create content today, including the Earned In-A-V-S podcast and the Purpose Code substack.

That's Jordangromit.com. Awesome. Thank you, Jordan. And we will link to that in our show notes. I really, really appreciate your time today, Jordan. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great conversation. Yeah, this is super awesome.

And we'll talk to you soon. All right. That was Doc BigG or Jordan with a Big J. I thought the most powerful part of that discussion was purpose with a little or big P. Mindy, can you tell us, I would love to hear your reflection on the fire journey that you went through, which I think started as a Big P. And you might, if you could go back in time, put a little bit. more little p in there but that's a guess what's your reaction to that and today's our show well it's a

pretty spot on guess scott uh i had no little p and all big p we were going to reach this goal and we were hell bent on getting there and it was this like forceful straight on like i don't know if you can see this if you're watching on youtube like just let's get there as fast as we possibly can as opposed to enjoying the journey. And Carl and I have talked about this frequently. We wish we would have done things differently and it was not an enjoyable experience. If Jordan would have written this book 15 years ago, thanks Jordan for the delay in your publication. If you would have written this 15 years ago and I would have done the research and, you know, taken the homework and the quizzes and the audits that he has at the end of each book or at the end of each chapter,

I really believe I would have had a different experience. I would be a different person than I am today. And I'm excited, nervously excited to go in and start doing this work. I know it's going to be a lot of work, but you're never too old to start changing your life. How about you, Scott? How would your journey have changed? You know, I'm not so sure I would have changed as much on the, journey. I still, you know, as much as I admire and appreciate Jordan and think he's spot on,

I think that part of the reflection about Little P in a capitalist society has, comes once you cross the snowball, once the snowball begins turning from a wealth building angle to a certain degree to a little bit. It's a privilege to be able to have that conversation. I don't think you need to get all the way to fire, right? Like, I think, I think if you're waiting, if you're waiting for some several million dollar number way down the line, that's too much, right? You're going to, you're going to, you don't have an you uh you're not going to have enough little p but i think that getting over this hump amassing maybe the first hundred or a couple hundred thousand dollars in wealth especially early in life like i do feel like that enables folks to then have these con these conversations

or thought processes about about that that other those other purposes there and it's just it's it's it is important to get the ball rolling on some of those things so my first couple years in my 20s i house hacked i saved i biked to work i still played rugby i still i still froliced heavily on the weekends and those types of things. But I got the snowball going down the other side of the mountain on that front. And I think I loosened up and let up before fire came and, you know, I certainly have now on the other side of fire. But I think, I don't know. I just want to be mindful of that and wonder if there's a privileged component to being able to have some of these discussions that money really does help enable.

to a certain degree. What do you think about that, Mindy? Oh, there absolutely is privilege. I'm wondering if because your fire journey started after mine, I'm wondering if you learned from other people's mistakes. Because I'm not the only person who had a similar journey to my journey and then got to the other side and was like, wow, I wish I would have taken a little more time to do that and enjoyed it a little bit more. So I'm wondering if that had an impact on your journey. Yeah, I think, I think that I had the privilege of kind of coming in in 2013 and seeing Mr. Money Mustache, for example. And, okay, here's the playbook. Like, this is how you do it and get ahead without having to earn a crazy amount of income or whatever. You can just

do it through frugality and boring, old-fashioned index fund style investing. And then over the years on Big Puckets money, I've kind of learned, oh, there's different stages here, right? Like, this all out intense big P purpose driven approach is really necessary to get out of debt for example right to grind it out to side hustle and get and get out of debt and into a position of stability with an emergency fund or whatever and what is unhealthy is when people crank on on that grind for five or 10 years beyond what is really necessary to accumulate enough in in life and there's a there's flip there's switches that need to flip at certain points right it should a lifetime of accumulation of money is a waste, but a failure to get ahead on the journey

will not give you the options, maybe to pursue some of these other interests. And maybe that's where I'm trying to get to. I think that's really interesting, Scott. I wonder how many people have already had their journey changed or altered just by all of the stories that we've been sharing. Yeah, I hope that they find some little P purpose as part of that. So that's what it's all about, right? I think it's just a new way of articulating it from Jordan, who is, again, a master philosopher in the space.

And I'm glad we have had, I think this is the third, fourth conversation we've had with him in the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. And I'm sure there will be more in the future as well. Yep. He's awesome. I love hearing from him. And I am excited about this book. So check out the purpose code wherever you buy your books. All right, Scott, should we get out of here?

Let's do it. That wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is the Scott Trench. I am Indy Jensen, saying, until then, Fountain Pen.