BiggerPockets Money Podcast - The Points Guy's Travel Hacking Tips to Fly for FREE in 2025

Starting point is 00:00:00 Are you traveling for free or are you leaving money on the table? In today's episode, we're joined by Brian Kelly, the points guy, the ultimate authority on point hacking to make sure you are traveling for $0 this year. Let's find out if you're missing out. And just for fun, I was on a plane the other day. I saw the points guy right there on the side of the plane. I was so excited. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money podcast.

Starting point is 00:00:26 My name is Mindy Jensen. And with me, as always, is my finally starting. to earn credit cards rewards points co-host Scott Trench. Thanks, Mindy. I'm really looking forward to redeeming myself with this podcast here. Bigger Pockets has a goal of creating 1 million millionaires. You're in the right place if you want to get your financial house in order because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone.

Starting point is 00:00:44 No matter when or where you're starting or how bad you've been with credit card point usage like me with 600, I think it's 750,000 to a million points that have unused for 10 years despite doing this for a living. All right. With that, Ryan, the Points Guy. We are super excited to have you on Bigger Pockets Money today. Can you teach us and me a little bit about this subject today? Well, first of all, this is now an intervention because you're what I call a points hoarder.

Starting point is 00:01:08 So this is a alert to everyone who does like you. You should use your points. It is financial malpractice to hoard points because they lose value over time. But that's a more advanced topic. But no, I'm super excited to share today. Everyone should be playing the points game. Even if you don't want to travel, the industry has evolved. much. It's ultra lucrative. So if you're not paying attention to points, hear me clearly,

Starting point is 00:01:32 you are throwing cash in a trash can. So hopefully this episode will help you get on the right track. What's better place to start, Brian? Should we start with if you have amassed a bunch of points because you signed up for one of these things 10 years ago after talking to some, you know, superstar expert on travel rewards and you never did anything with them, how do you begin using them? Or should we start with what's a baseline strategy for someone starting from zero, which is probably more common. Yeah, well, let's hook people, because I've had a lot of your listeners have a lot of points, and the answer is really easy. So over the last four years, there has been a proliferation of technology, these paid tools, which will actually tell you exactly how to use your points yourself.

Starting point is 00:02:12 So I highly recommend there's a app called point me, point dot me. It's basically like the Google flights for points. You can tell it what points you have. You can put in where you want to go, and it'll tell you how to use the points you have to get there. So simply put, you no longer have to go to 20 different airline websites and be an expert like me to get the most bang for your point. There's another tool called Seats. Arrow that will actually scan airline programs for up to a year. And to get the most value out of your points these days, it's being flexible and choosing to fly when the best seats are available.

Starting point is 00:02:45 So Seats.org will let you look at a year by airline. and you can sort by the cheapest tickets or by route and, you know, plan your vacation around when the best availability is. You said you can figure out where you want it to take you where you want to go. I'm paraphrasing here. What do you mean that literally or figuratively? Like should this be used on travel almost always? Is that the general guidance? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:03:09 And I guess the general guidance is if you have transferable points like Amex membership rewards, Chase Ultimate Rewards, and you have a credit card that certain credit cards, will allow you to transfer points to partners. And generally, that is where you're going to get the most value. Most people don't realize that. And when they go on and just search to redeem for any flight, the credit card company is going to give you like one to one and a half cents per point. But when you learn how to transfer to airlines, I'll just give an example. You know, like 50,000 chase points is about a $500 gift card to wherever you want.

Starting point is 00:03:43 Depending on your credit card, it might be $625 towards booking. So you might be able to fly coach to Europe. But you could transfer those 50,000 points to Air France and fly business class to Europe. So that's where the real vet. That's when I hope I get people's interests parked up, especially if you like flying in the front of the plane. Transferring your points is where that's where the excitement comes in because it's not pegged to the cost of the ticket. And in a perverse way, the more expensive the ticket is when you can get those points tickets. That's sort of expert mode.

Starting point is 00:04:13 And that's why the people in this industry hate when I teach other people how to do it. because it makes it harder for them, but hey, that's my job. It just seems like vacation is so much better when it's not being paid for with cash. Let the airlines and credit card companies pay for your trip so that you can, at least you're at your flights and hotels and you can spend the money on things that you love the most. And that's why like points are a financial tool. They are currency and they're not taxable. So you can get banks to give you free points that you will not be taxed on.

Starting point is 00:04:44 you can be smart about how you spend your money. And what I love about credit, as I'm sure you've talked about many times on the show, is when you actually pay your bills off in full every month, your credit score goes up. So winning at points is like winning at life. Because not only can you get the credit card companies and the airlines to fund your trips, but your credit score goes up as long as you're playing by the rules, like paying your bills off in full every month to avoid high interest. If you are going to have huge credit card bills, I do not recommend playing the points game.

Starting point is 00:05:13 you may want to get a 0% balance transfer card, but yeah, it's all about the points. So is it as simple? If there's one takeaway from this, if you have a ton of points, go to point.me and start poking around and the answers for how to travel using those points most effectively will present themselves, or what else? Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, well, point that me is this one.

Starting point is 00:05:34 And if you have an American Express card, if you go to point dot me slash amex, the tool is free. And you can, you'll put in, you know, New York to Miami or New York to, L.A., wherever you live, and it'll show you in real-time availability, hey, if you book this through the airline, it's going to cost you 500 bucks, 50,000 points, but here's how you transfer for 20,000. So it does all of the math, and it searches all of the different options for you. So that's why, you know, having this technology now can make anyone off the street become an expert almost immediately. So you're not in the first role position of having hundreds of thousands of points that you should have used years ago because they've lost value to inflation. It's been terrible

Starting point is 00:06:14 investment, relatively speaking, for this. And you've got to get into game with that. But you're starting over from scratch or you're trying to advance your game. What are some, how do we kind of basically frame the opportunity with credit card points for someone getting into it and then finding ways to travel for free? Yeah. There's three main flavors of rewards cards. Number one is cash back. Pretty simple. You spend, you know, you're generally going to get anywhere from one to two percent cash back. If you're going to get a cashback card today, city double cash is sort of like the standard 2% back, no annual fee as long as you pay your bill. So you want to look for like 2% back.

Starting point is 00:06:48 That's like pretty good. You can get a little bit higher than that with some specialty cards. Like if you have a brokerage account with Bank of America, et cetera. The second is that the co-brand cards. That's airline cards, hotel cards. They offer the currency you get is that airline. So the real value in these cards though is perks, free check bags, priority boarding, lounge access, elite status.

Starting point is 00:07:13 The third and best type of credit card, in my opinion, and I think most points experts, are the transferable points credit cards. So these are the bank currencies. You don't earn with United Airlines. You earn Chase Ultimate Rewards points. And the transferable points currencies are amazing because instead of earning one singular airline mile, you can earn one or more credit card points that can be transferred to 30 airlines. So you dramatically increase the utility of your points by having a ton more options.

Starting point is 00:07:45 Because the downside of getting just airline or hotel points is, you know, if you're accruing American Airlines miles on their co-brand, but say you want to go on your honeymoon to Dubai and your life, you know, you want to fly Emirates. You can't. You can't transfer it out. They're untransferable. You are in bed with that airline. And a lot of the airlines have been naughty and continuing to devalue their point. program. So when you have it with the bank, it's a much more valuable currency. The tradeoff is that you don't get as many perks with that airline. You're not going to get free check bags with a bank credit card.

Starting point is 00:08:20 So everything is just a calculation. The real goal is you want to get big sign-up bonuses for a new credit card. And you want to get credit cards that offer category bonuses. So that's on everyday spend. The Amex Gold card, for example, offers four points per dollar spent on dining and groceries, which are huge categories for most people. The built credit card is a transferable card that gives you points on rent with no fees. So if you are a renter, there is no reason not to get the built rewards card. Even if your landlord takes a check, you can pay with your built credit card. They get their direct deposit or check and you earn points for free with no annual fee. Does the bill card, if you recommend the built card to your tenants, do you get like a little spiff as a

Starting point is 00:09:07 landlord? I think they have a program, especially like with the big, big buildings. I mean, the big residential companies are investors in the company. So I'm sure that there's a, that's how they're getting all their new credit card members. But even if your landlord is just like a small landlord that you send a check to, you can still have them send a check or direct deposit and earn the points. So most people are like, well, built seems too good to be true. It's not. And the points are extraordinarily valuable. You can transfer them to United, Hyatt. At the points guy, we rank all the points currencies out there and built points and chase points are the most valuable. And that's a no annual fee card. So the goal is to look at every dollar you spend, your rent, which is most people's

Starting point is 00:09:46 biggest monthly purchase. You want to be getting points for that and not paying anything. You're dining, your Uber's, your travel. You know, the Chase Sapphire reserves, another great one. Triple points on travel and dining. But travel includes Uber, public transportation, parking, tolls, et cetera. So the goal is you want a big sign-up bonus and then you want to get a card or two that reward you bonuses where you spend the most money. We have to take a quick ad break, but while we are away, dear listeners, if you're not already doing so, please follow us on Instagram and Facebook on both platforms. We are bigger pockets money, all one word. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including

Starting point is 00:10:29 income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact. Because the goal isn't just to look backward, it's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your

Starting point is 00:11:00 Monarch subscription with the code Pockets. What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves in Edle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code Pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at Monarch.com code Pockets.

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Starting point is 00:13:30 It took me 12 years of spending on that across rental properties and personal to rack up all of those. They're very valuable. Those 700,000 points, if you have a Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you could redeem those for over $10,000 in travel. and I could teach you how to get even more value than that. You could probably get $20,000 worth when you start transferring to book business and first class flights through their partners like Air France, Air Canada.

Starting point is 00:13:58 That's a lot of great trips. You could fly numerous times round-trip business class, you know, to Europe, to Asia, you've got a lot of possibilities there. Now, just to answer your question, chase points are more valuable because if you have the Sapphire Reserve, they give you one and a half cents per point,

Starting point is 00:14:13 base level on all travel, basically. whether you book hotels or flights through them. Amex is only one cent. So Chase points are more valuable because they're base redemption level. And then also is just more valuable, you know, built at 1.25 cents. So there's like base levels of redemption. And then you can transfer them to partners and get many more, you know,

Starting point is 00:14:35 five cents per point in value potentially. I got to say like maybe 10 years ago, seven, 10 years ago, I heard that the Chase Sapphire preferred card was just like a great all around or credit card if you weren't sure what to do at that point. I don't know if that's currently the case, but I just use that, which is how they got me, of course, the credit card company. Should I change over the Chase Sapphire preferred card has a lower annual fee than the Chase Sapphire Reserve card? But because I have so many points, if I plan to redeem them, should I upgrade to that card?

Starting point is 00:15:06 So the Chase Sapphire preferred today, you only get 1.25 cents per point at base level. But if you had a reserve card, it would be one and a half. So you can still transfer the points either card. And I think you'll get more value transferring to Hyatt and to the airlines. But off the bat, you would be getting thousands more in value by having a reserve if you redeemed it for travel through Chase. Now, here's the trick. And this is what people need to know. So if it's been more than four years since you've had a Sapphire sign-up bonus, you'd actually be eligible to get the Sapphire reserve card as a new card and get the 60,000 point sign-up bonus. But there's a trick to it.

Starting point is 00:15:46 What you need to do is downgrade your Sapphire preferred to a Chase Freedom Unlimited card. That's going to be a no annual fee card with one and a half points on every dollar spent. And then you apply new for Chase Sapphire Reserve. Get the 60,000 points. And then all of your points become Sapphire Reserve points. So there's like new ones. If you were to call Chase today, they would let you upgrade, but give you

Starting point is 00:16:12 zero points. But knowing the trick of, because you can't apply for a reserve if you have a preferred, but you can downgrade preferred to a freedom, which is a separate product, and then apply fresh to get that 60,000 points, which are worth $900 just right there by applying new versus upgrading. That's super valuable. On an unrelated note, Mindy, I'm going to need you to ask the next 10 minutes worth of questions here. Well, you call up Chase, sure. Well, I have a lot of questions, a bunch that we have kind of touched on but not really touched on. Brian, you just said that this one has a lower annual fee, or Scott did. How do you evaluate annual fees for cards? Because some of them are quite eye-opening, if you haven't been involved in this before, I got one card that was like,

Starting point is 00:16:58 it's a $600 annual fee. Wow. Instantly, I would say no, but then if you dive a little deeper, you see that you get $300 instant credit on travel and, you know, all these other things. How do you evaluate the annual fee? In my book, How to Win a Travel, I have a whole chapter about, you need to evaluate the three sides of the coin are the earning of points. Generally, cards with higher annual fees offer richer rates of return on the card. So what you want to do is a quick valuation of, okay, so for example, the Chase Saffir Reserve has that $550 annual fee, but you're earning three X points on all travel and dining versus two. And that might seem nominal to you, but you spend 10,000 a year on travel and dining, it's 20,000 points versus 30. Those extra 10,000 chase points

Starting point is 00:17:48 are worth $150 right there in difference. So then when you add that 150, you'll earn more in points just from that one group of spend plus the $300 you get a year in travel rebates. You're now at $450 in value from getting that $550 card. So the Sapphire preferred is $95. So you've closed the gap right there off the bat. Plus, that Sapphire Reserve gets you into the stunningly beautiful Chase Sapphire lounges that are now expanding across the country. So that's what I want people to do the math is how much more in points will you earn? How much more of those points more valuable when you redeem? Because Sapphire Reserve is one and a half cents versus one in a quarter. And that starts to add up very quickly. And then the third side of the coin is perks. So by having a Sapphire Reserve card,

Starting point is 00:18:39 you actually get a ton of different perks like that lounge access, which if you live in Boston, LaGuardia, you know, wherever there are these Sapphire lounges, you might be using them once a month and getting a $50 meal that you would have had to buy in the airport. So then you start adding in all the perks. And the really premium credit cards, they have so many perks people don't realize, like purchase protection. You know, when you have one of those premium credit cards, something goes wrong with the credit, you know, an issue. the teams are much more enabled to handle disputes.

Starting point is 00:19:11 They'll take charges off your credit card or even flight delays and cancellations. This is a perk most people don't know about, but when you book the flights with your credit card, a Sapphire Reserve, for example, if your flight's delayed and you need to spend a night in a hotel, you're going to spend an hour in line trying to get a Motel 6 from the airline. They may or may not give it to you. Anyone with the Chase Sapphire Reserve knows, oh, I booked this with my reserve. Chase will reimburse $500 per person on your reservation in reasonable fees. So you can book yourself in a beautiful suite at the Weston at the airport and know that your

Starting point is 00:19:44 credit card company is going to reimburse you. The airlines these days are really cheap. So the credit card companies now have all these perks that make that 550 all the sudden, that's a no-brainer when you know you're protected, you can go to the lounge, you're getting more points, you're redeeming more points. And so frankly, cheap is expensive. People are losing sight over, you know, the value they could be getting. The piece that I can redeem my points for, what is that, 15% more, a buck 50 instead of a

Starting point is 00:20:14 buck 25 on there, that is, that takes the value of my points, which you said, we're summer in the ballpark of $10,000, if I'm reasonably intelligent about it, to 1150. So at least in the year I plan to redeem a bunch of points. The Chase Sapphire Reserve makes a lot of sense just for that alone. and before you get to the other benefits you talked about. Absolutely. You would make up the annual fee difference for several years, just right there, just in how much more valuable they make the points.

Starting point is 00:20:41 This is not me. I'm learning this on the spot. I did not know this beforehand. We don't have any financial affiliation with Chase or any of these things. This just happens to be my situation. Isn't why I anyone listening? I want to know what Brian's wallet looks like right now. Brian, what's in your wallet?

Starting point is 00:20:54 I don't remember what ad that is. Yeah, that's Capital One, I think. And funny enough, so my goal in life is to earn more than one point per dollar in every purchase. So I actually have the Capital One Venture X is a competitor to the Chase Saffire Reserve, but you earn 2x on everything. So that's the card I use when I'm at the vet. You know, there's no credit card out there that gives 4x points on vets or, you know, even online shopping. You know, I pay a contractor to do something in my house, go shop at a store. That goes on the 2x. So everything I earn minimum 2X. I have the built credit card. I do pay

Starting point is 00:21:32 rent and that gets up to 100,000 points a year just on paying rent, which I had to do anyway. And then Amex Gold. So a lot of people get the Amex Platinum, which is good for lounge access and perks, but you only earn one point per dollar on most purchases. It's 5x on airfare. So I will put my airfare on an Amex Platinum for 5X,x. But the Amex Gold card, you get 4x on dining and groceries. And I've got two kids.

Starting point is 00:22:00 So groceries includes Instacar. and grocery shopping. So I want people to look at all the major categories in which they spend money. There are certain credit cards for pharmacies, streaming, cell phone. And as a small business owner, I do a lot of Google advertising, Google, Facebook advertising. So for anyone out there who does that, the Amex business gold gives four points per dollar on internet advertising, which I know a lot of small businesses that spend a lot because you know, my company reimburses me for that spend. So, and it's up to $150,000 a year. So I get

Starting point is 00:22:36 600,000 valuable annex points for using that business gold card. So also small business credit cards are a huge way to unlock even more points. Okay. You are now touching on the reason that I have a Capital One Venturex and a Hyatt card and a Southwest card and that's it because I can't keep track of all of this. And I'm so thankful because Denver is my home airport and the Capital One Venture X card allows you into that lounge. And there's another one in a different concourse, but it's a really great lounge. So for that, I would say if anybody's listening and, you know, if you travel a lot or even if you just travel a little bit, find out what lounge is in your area and use that because not all cards are the same. I have a Venture X, which I guess is like the

Starting point is 00:23:23 highest level of Capital One Venture whatever's. And there's other venture. And there's other venture levels, I will jump the line to get into the lounge because I have a quote unquote better card. And I feel kind of bad about that, except my kids are sitting there and they're hungry and they're like, can we please just get in the lounge? And I'm like, oh, we just jumped in front of everybody. But I feel, you know, I still feel a little bit bad. Yeah, the normal venture card, I think, is $95. But the venture X is $3.95, but it comes with a $300 credit. So there's really no reason not to get the venture X, in my opinion, even if you visit one lounge a year, plus all the other perks are so much higher. I think for you, if you like flying, if you like Hyatt and Southwest

Starting point is 00:24:03 points, I would recommend to you to get a Sapphire card because you could be earning 3x on travel and dining and you can transfer one to one to Southwest and Hyatt. So it wouldn't make sense for you to use a high, unless you're trying to get Hyatt status or Southwest Airlines status because you'd want to get chase points instead so you can transfer to either of those plus 10 other really valuable partners. But that also, I think, synergizes really well if you can pick a favorite airline and a favorite hotel chain. Yes, you want to take that trip to Dubai or whatever and use an airline, but that's not probably most people are going to be fairly, are going to get the maximum benefit, I think, from using something like Chase that is universally applicable and one of these big

Starting point is 00:24:47 hotel chains or airlines. Do you have a recommendation for where to start if you don't really know and you're not really kind of rude to figuring that out about how to work. There's some good choices you won't regret. Yeah, like if you fly Delta, for example, I would say instead of, you can get a Delta credit card that gives you free check bags, all the perks, right? The airline cards are good just for perks, but don't spend all your money on them because you don't want to get one Delta mile when you could have had one Amex point because an Amex point transfers to Delta plus 30 other options.

Starting point is 00:25:15 So by choosing to accrue one piece when you could have a much more valuable point, that's where people go wrong. They say, I fly Delta, I'm going to get a Delta card. Well, you can fly Delta. It's great airline, but get more valuable points and a points currency that transfers to Delta plus a million other options. I'd also say you could have a Sapphire Reserve and still fly Delta because if you have a Chase Sapphire Reserve, those points you can redeem on buying any Delta flight in the world for one and a half cents apiece. In general, Delta miles are worth about one cent a piece. So even if you want to redeem for Delta flights, you could still use your Sapphire points, of which you're getting three on travel and dining, and let's do the math there,

Starting point is 00:25:57 at three points per dollar on travel and dining, and they're worth one and a half cents each, you're getting a 4.5% return per dollar spent in those categories towards Delta, whereas if you got one delta mile, that's worth one cent each, you're getting 1% by spending on a Delta co-brand. So you can get almost 5x more value by spending on a Chase Sapphire and then redeeming on Delta than if you got one Delta mile. You're on your path to fire and you're giving your expenses low. What credit card is best for you if you don't have high spending and don't want to shell out

Starting point is 00:26:30 a thousand plus on three ultimate credit cards? We'll find out when we're back. Tax season is one of the only times all year when most people actually look at their full financial picture, including income, spending, savings, investments, the whole thing. And if you're like most folks, it can be a little eye-opening. That's why I like Monarch. It helps you see exactly where your money is going, and more importantly, where your tax refund can make the biggest impact.

Starting point is 00:26:52 Because the goal isn't just to look backward. It's to actually make progress. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, including budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season

Starting point is 00:27:10 and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code, What I personally like is that Monarch keeps you focused on achieving, not just tracking. You can see your budgets, debt payoff, savings goals, and net worth all in one place. So every decision actually moves the needle. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use the code pockets at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at Monarch.com code pockets. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday.

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Starting point is 00:29:30 Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at Northwest Registeredagent.com slash money-free. Thanks for sticking with us. Let me ask a more advanced layer question to this. because if I have a favorite airline and I fly there a lot and I get status, that synergizes in a, like for bigger pockets, right? And probably many people listening, you know, you travel for work. Maybe it's three times a year. Maybe it's five times a year.

Starting point is 00:29:53 For me, it's 10 to 20 times a year on that, right? So my point, like something that synergizes with Southwest is much more valuable. And I imagine that if I pick one hotel chain, which I have not been super good about, that that will also start to begin synergizing. So how do I make that decision about like, hey, if I'm going to, I'm going to travel for work. I should always go with this hotel chain or this airline because it will give me the most flexibility or most optionality later.

Starting point is 00:30:17 Do you have any advice for somebody that's kind of thinking through? How do I reset that in 2025? In general, elite status, let me just tell you. When I started the points guy in 2010, in general, Delta was upgrading 80% of the first class cabin was free elite upgrades. It was crazy. Even if you had low, mid-tier status, you're getting free upgrades. So I would do whatever it took to get status because I could calculate, well, flying first class for

Starting point is 00:30:39 free was a huge value. Fast forward 15 years. In 2025, airlines now, people pay 80% of those first class cabins paid off the bat. So only 20% are going to those upgrades, which means you're really only getting upgraded if you're a top tier passenger. What I tell people is that, yeah, if you're an old top tier passenger and you're getting great customer service and you're getting real tangible perks, like getting rebooked when there's a storm and you're the last one, you know, you get that one spot left to go home and you see that value all the time. What's been happening is people who have like mid-tier status are not seeing those perks anymore.

Starting point is 00:31:16 So you're being sold to promise of goods. And now the airlines are now saying, well, you have to spend all your money on our co-brand to get the status. My push to everyone is look hard and deep and say how much did that status get me in real value this past year. If it's, you're still getting upgrades and they're treating you like a king, by all means, it might make sense to forego getting the more valuable points to get the perks that come with status and spending for it. But in many cases now, people are realizing, I'm on this hamster wheel to get elite status.

Starting point is 00:31:49 What am I getting? I could just get the airline co-branded card, which gets me priority boarding, free check bags. And the airlines now, you know, I'm not going to get the upgrade anyway. So that's what I want people. And in the book, I go through the how to assess where to spend your money because you can fly on an airline, but just make sure that loyalty goes both ways, that if you're going to give them all your spend on all your credit cards, you better be getting more value than the points that you're losing by not spending on a better card. So you're, you know, I want people to understand the tradeoff that they make by

Starting point is 00:32:21 spending on an airline card. Even at the next level, but that's an awesome answer. You're saying, you're saying, don't be loyal to Southwest or to United unless you're really going to be fly a dozen plus times a year or more on that airline because you're not going to get the benefits anymore of doing that. Just shop around the best price and use the best transfer on that and rack up all the points in these categories and figure out how to use them the best. Maybe get that one airline credit card and can spend the minimum. And people are blown. I want to empower people to earn so many points that instead of flying blindly loyal, let's say with Delta, and then praying and hoping for an upgrade, fighting your teeth, maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't. You're on an upgrade wait list.

Starting point is 00:33:01 Have so many points that you book the first class flight with your points. And that's what people don't realize they can do. That's the eye-opening moment. Why was I chasing status to maybe get a freebie when I could have just spent on really rich credit cards and booked whatever the heck I wanted and taken all the stress out of it? That sounds a lot more interesting than trying to jump through hoop after hoop because the airlines keep changing these programs. And usually, you know, the spread of the value has been diminishing for a majority of elite travelers. I know there's an article in the Wall Street journal today about, you know, people are now becoming more loyal to their credit cards than they are to their airlines. And myself, that's 100% the case. Okay. So going back to your big wallet,

Starting point is 00:33:47 what's in your wallet, how do you keep this all sorted? How do you keep track of this one is for groceries and this one is for gasoline and this one is for, you know, travel? It's confusing. And I would tell people just get a couple cards that, you know, for example, the Amex Gold I keep going back to that, dining and grocery, which is what a lot of people spend on, just know that you always use that card for that. You know, have, and then everything else, you should be spending on your venture X card, in my opinion, because you're getting, unless you really need high at points, you know, then I would also just say, well, if you're really looking to get high points, you get your account to a level

Starting point is 00:34:23 where you can spend a week in Maui, then you might want to work to that. Otherwise, when you look at the math, you know, a high at point is worth one and a half cents. A southwest point is like 1.2. Your chase or your capital 1 points are worth 1, but you're earning 2 for every purchase. You're getting 2 cents in value minimum back. So you would never want to earn one Southwest point because it's way less than one capital 1 point. You'd never want to even get one high at point because with your capital 1 points, you can just book high at hotels and pay for that.

Starting point is 00:34:58 You can't transfer to Hyatt, but you could just pay for it. But in general, that 2% back is very, very rich. It's, you know, unless you have a, you know, you're trying to spend on the Hyatt card to get elite status or something, you generally, I don't think those cards are worth spending on. Okay. That's good to know. No, I've got tons of Hyatt points. I don't think I'm ever going to pay for a hotel again. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:35:18 So then I would just put everything in your Capital One Venture X at this point. I mean, that's 2x on everything. Those points can be redeemed for pretty much anything. and they also do have some really interesting transfer partners as well. Okay, but I'm listening to this podcast, right? And I'm hearing Brian the points guy. Come on and tell me all this. But there's no world where someone listening to this podcast is going to open up the

Starting point is 00:35:40 MX Gold and the Chase Sapphire Reserve and the Venture X one as was a podcast and spend the $1,000 or whatever in season. So which one is the first move that I should make? So to your point, whenever you're going to do, new credit card, you need to spend a certain amount within a certain time period, like three to six thousand within three to four months usually. So I would never recommend someone biting off more than they can chew. That being said, I have a case, I mean, I think most points experts, having those three credit cards, even though the annual fees will be over $1,000, you're easily

Starting point is 00:36:16 getting recouping that back. Anyone who travels and knows how to use the travel credit, you're easily recouping that back. You could get all. three in one day if you do spend a lot and could do that. It's not going to, and in fact, many people in the industry experts will get three credit cards in one day. There's actually, you get higher approval rates because the banks may not see the other, you know, approval or, you know, the application. But I think if you spend on traveling or if you spend on dining and groceries, I think like most families do, like having an amex gold is a no-brainer. If you have a friend who has one of any of these credit cards, you could ask them to refer you. They'll get like

Starting point is 00:36:55 30,000 points too, which is always nice, especially if you have a spouse. That's what people, you know, if you're married couples need to know too, you could refer each other and each get the sign up bonus. That's what we call two player mode is you get your spouse involved too. And then you're all of a sudden you're referring each other for credit cards. You're each maximizing. That's when it gets really compelling and you can start raking in the points every year. Some of our listeners come on and they spend remarkably little money. They live in a low cost living area. And I'm talking like $2,000, $3,000 a month in household expenses. And they don't travel that frequently, you know, maybe a trip or two, you know, a year kind of deal. At that level of

Starting point is 00:37:35 spending, does the math change? Would you then tell people to shy away from all three of those credit cards? If you're not going to travel, you just want to get a cash back credit card, two percent back on all your spend every year. If you're paying rent, you have to get a built credit card. The bill credit card also offers double on travel 3x on dining. So I would say to someone who wants one credit card, no annual fee and who pays rent and travels and dines, the built is a no-brainer. No questions asked. There's literally not a, if you're paying rent today and you're not getting free super valuable points, once again, back, you're you're throwing money in the trash can because and not only that, built records your rent payment on the credit rails. So you actually get your

Starting point is 00:38:17 credit increases. It shows your credit responsibility as long as you pay it off in full every month. So yeah, the bill for like low spenders or who have rent and, you know, might eat out. I think the built card's the absolute winner there. Okay. So you would literally suggest, though, for most people, go out there. And today, if you're just getting started, go get the MX Gold, the Chase Sapphire Reserve and the Capital One Venturex and pay in the ballpark a little in excess of $1,000 in fees, if not all at once over the next couple of months, presuming you can actually hit the minimum spend limits on those. And you will see the reward.

Starting point is 00:38:57 And if you use them for the appropriate categories of spend that they give the maximum point benefits in, you'll recoup that $1,000 in fees easily and more every year. Absolutely. Each card has a bunch of different part. And then the sign-up bonuses alone will pay for the card. You know, let's, you know, Capital One Venture X, I believe. $395. You're getting $300 a year. So really, it's a $95 a year card. And you're going to get 60. I don't know the sign-up bonus off top of my head. Let's say it's $60,000, which is low for that card.

Starting point is 00:39:31 You know, that's $600 right there. So if you're paying $95 a year, that's six years of the annual fee just paid for just by the first sign-up bonus alone. You know what I mean? Like the economics are not hard to get in your advantage because you're getting the huge sign-up bonus. And then every year you're getting the category bonuses because you're using these cards for the 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x categories, which helps you sustain the points coming in beyond that signup bonus. I saw a post from my friend Jenny Roselle, who's an estate attorney just the other day, and she said, don't forget about your loyalty points and rewards in your estate plan. Is that a thing?

Starting point is 00:40:09 Absolutely. And in my book, I interviewed an attorney. So also in divorce, points will be split up by the court. It is communal property. It's something that people do not realize. Even though you're not taxed on points in miles and it's very tough to put evaluation, they clearly have value and you should account for them. When you pass, unfortunately, I see this all the time.

Starting point is 00:40:33 People do not, I recommend everyone put your frequent flyer passwords in your estate so that your next of kin can come in and redeem those points. And they don't have to go through all the paperwork of trying to beg the airline to transfer them to you. Many airline and hotel programs will expire your points when you expire because you technically don't own them. But if you're next of kin have your information and can log into your accounts, they can redeem the points for tickets for themselves or hotels. So yeah, it's something most people don't think about, but it is good to always have that in your estate. Because some people have millions of points and they go, they're next of kin can't get access. And most programs will say, sorry, they might make an exception if you send in tons and tons and tons of papers. paperwork, but who wants to do that when dealing with someone's passing?

Starting point is 00:41:19 Right. So you just don't tell the airline and you just keep using the points until they're all gone. Exactly because you're allowed to do that. I'm allowed to book points for whoever I want. So my next of Kim would come in and just log into my accounts and just book tickets for themselves, run them down to zero, call it a day. Instead of losing the thousands in value because you forgot to put your password in your estate. Okay. My last question is, let's say I've got these four cards and I don't know which one is the best. for which type of purchase. How do I go in and find out what is the best, like which card gives me the most on groceries or whatever?

Starting point is 00:41:56 I mean, at the points guy, we have, you know, a huge editorial team. So if you want to look for the best credit card for gas, groceries, dieting, etc. I would just say Google it or just put in the points guy at the end. Our team of experts, we narrow this down. In my book, I actually have a list of all the top categories and the top credit cards. And if you have a credit card, you're like, I wonder what card this earns me. Everyone today, go through your wallet, look at your credit card, just Google, earning Chase Freedom Unlimited. And it'll take you probably do a points guide post.

Starting point is 00:42:28 We usually rank higher than the banks. And just make sure you then use that card for that purchase. Some credit cards have rotating categories. I find them annoying, but it can be more value, you know, staying on top. Sometimes you have to activate them. But most credit cards, if there's a bonus category, you just need to make sure you use it at that merchant, you automatically will get the extra points. Okay. And Brian, you have mentioned how to win a travel a couple of times. Tell us about this book.

Starting point is 00:42:53 So this is for anyone who's like, this is so confusing. You know, how to win a travel is my guide to helping people who want to just be better travelers. I mean, I see all day in the airports people melting down. They don't know the rules. And so often, you need to understand how travel works to get what you want. I see people screaming at the 8.000. agents at the airport. And I'm like, you're doing it all wrong because if you were nice to that person and knew what to ask for, you're going home tonight. But because you don't understand how the system works, you're screaming at this poor employee who wants you out of here. So the book, it's 15 chapters of how to budget. You know, if you're 22 years old and you want to start traveling, but,

Starting point is 00:43:37 you know, on social media nowadays, everything is take the trip, do this. But how do you actually set yourself up, where do you go? How do you stay safe? I interviewed a lot of really interesting people. So the three core chapters are earning points, redeeming points and perks, but I also like highlight jet lag, how to beat jet lag, which I learned a ton about circadian science while writing the book. So even if you're an expert traveler, an expert points person, this book is a great gift for anyone who wants to be a traveler or is a frequent traveler. And also fear of flying. I'm always shocked how many people have a fear of flying. And I dove deep into that, interviewed Whoopi Goldberg,

Starting point is 00:44:17 who used to not be able to even get on planes. Now she flies across the Atlantic by herself. So how to come with that, basically just how to become a better traveler. So you wrote this book for me, essentially. Thank you. For you, and so that I can enjoy dinner parties again, because I am always the most popular dinner party guests. And I just need to give my voice a break.

Starting point is 00:44:36 So I'm just going to carry this book around with me wherever I go and say, read for yourself. Awesome. Well, Brian, I really appreciate your time today. This was a lot of fun. I learned a ton, and apparently I now have a bunch of credit cards to go open up before. I learned a ton, too. You probably made me $1,500 just on this conversation of your first two minutes. So I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, guys for having me. Yeah, thank you, Brian. And we will talk to you soon. All right, that was the points guy. And Scott, I have to tell you, I learned so much. I was really looking forward to this interview the entire time that it was on the calendar. I kept waiting for the day. we got to talk to him because I had so many questions. I really feel like I got some good answers. He gave some really great credit card suggestions that are like all encompassing credit cards, like the Capital One Venture X, American Express Gold, Chase Sapphire Reserve. I think those are

Starting point is 00:45:27 great starters for people who like me just don't have the mental bandwidth to hang on to this. But if you're not like me, Brian's got a new book where you can dive deep into all of this stuff. And I'm so excited. I had such a great time talking to him. How about you Scott? Look, you know, there's that like framework of, you know, you got to spend your time on, you know, you start out spending your time on a $10 an hour activity in high school. And then you try to get to $25 or $100 activity.

Starting point is 00:45:52 And then as an entrepreneur, you try to find a thousand or $500 activity. Well, this is, I think that if I spend five hours actually doing this stuff now that we've interviewed all of the biggest names in the point space and I've never followed their advice other than getting a Chase Sapphire preferred kind of. I finally now, after talking to the. points guy and he just told me exactly how to make $1,500 in incremental value on my points. Like, I don't do that. What am I doing here? Like, this is a super valuable thing. And I think that for folks who have ignored this for a long time, if you're like me at all, you know,

Starting point is 00:46:23 spending four or five hours going down the rabbit hole, setting the system up and then actually spending the points that you've accumulated probably has five-ish plus thousand dollars, maybe per year in benefit for you. So it's something I've been missing. I have been missing it two. I've been accruing them at a not nearly high rate as you have, but now I'm excited to start accruing them even more. I'm not kidding, Scott, we're buying a house or we're building a house and the builder said that we could pay for all of the materials up front instead of them doing it. And I'm like, yes, please. Mine include my rental properties and include the signing bonuses I got for these things years ago. And I did a couple of the travel hacks and forgot about it. I'm sure

Starting point is 00:47:04 that's the case for a lot of people in the community. You know, you just lose. track of it after a couple of years and the fourth credit card you sign up after you get going down the rabbit hole. But I think it's just like sustaining that and using it and putting a few hours of work is thousands of dollars in value if you're actually going to put it in. So that's my big takeaway. And I'm very grateful for the free consultation I got from The Points Guy on my own personal situation. That was great. Yeah, that was awesome. I am so excited for his book. All right, Scott should we get out of here? Let's do it. All right, that wraps up this excellent travel episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. He is the Scott Trench.

Starting point is 00:47:37 I am Indy Jensen saying, take care, little bear.

BiggerPockets Money Podcast - The Points Guy's Travel Hacking Tips to Fly for FREE in 2025

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