BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 13: Buying Real Estate with Seller Financing and Speculating with Leon Yang

Episode Date: April 11, 2013

Traditional cash flow investing and bank loans are the most common methods used for buy-and-hold investors, but it’s not the only way. Today’s episode of the BiggerPockets Podcast looks at some alternative methods of real estate investing that we haven’t covered in great detail yet on the show, but may help you pick up new skills and ideas for your investing plan. On today’s show, we sit down with Leon Yang, a young investor from the Las Vegas area who fills us in on his strategy to buy homes using seller financing. We also learn how he closely watches the real estate market to ride the “speculation wave” to build wealth through appreciation and time. A BiggerPockets Podcast Milestone! Before we get to the show – we want to give a big thanks to everyone who has left us a review in iTunes– we are up to 175 five-star reviews and counting! Also – we have reached 100,000 downloads of the podcast since we started – which is really, really incredible! Thanks so much to everyone who has helped us reach this milestone and supported BiggerPockets on this journey! Read the transcript for episode 13 with Leon Yang here In This Show, We Cover: How to get started when living in a city with high prices Why Leon chose Las Vegas to invest in How to use seller financing to fund your purchases Leon’s primary source for finding seller financing. How to approach sellers and negotiate the best deal. Two things more important than “selling price” in a deal. Speculating in real estate: is it ever okay? Leon’s view on the future of inflation in the US. The first step for new investors. Why now is the best time to invest in real estate. Links from the Show How to Buy a Small MultiFamily Property: A Step by Step Case Study  Using BiggerPockets to Grow Your Business – Free eBook What is Your Real Estate Lifestyle? (Post by Leon Yang) BP Podcast 006: Investing While Holding a Full Time Job with Arthur Garcia How to Invest in Real Estate when Everything is Too Expensive The BiggerPockets Blog The BiggerPockets Forums Books Mentioned in the Show: Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey The Ultimate Beginner’s Guide to Real Estate Investing by BiggerPockets Investment Biker: Around the World with Jim Rogers Tweetable Topics “Seller financing is about relationships and trust. Build that before negotiating.” (Tweet This!) “Inflation is a borrower’s friend.” (Tweet This!) “To be successful, you have to get a good financial education.” (Tweet This!) “Strike a good balance between real estate and the rest of your life.” (Tweet This!) “It’s the experiences in life that make life interesting, not how much money you have.” (Tweet This!) Learn More about Leon Leon’s Blog: HardWorkingPenguin.com Leon’s Facebook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast, show 13. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. Hey, everybody. I'm Josh Dorkin, your host of the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-hosts. Brandon Turner. What's up, Brandon? Hey, Josh, not much. Things are pretty good.

I closed on a new property this week, so that makes me happy. Fantastic. Always exciting to close on yet another property. It is. I wrote about it over on the blog so people can check that out if they want to know the dirty details. But yeah, it's good. No, that's awesome, man. Well, you know what else is awesome, Brandon? What else is awesome? Speaking of awesome. Josh. Awesome is 100,000. Do you know why 100,000 is awesome?

Is that the amount of money that you're going to give me today? That is certainly not the amount of money I'm going to give you today. However, that is, no, not tomorrow either, Brandon. 100,000 is the number of times our podcast has been listened to up until now, up until at the time of this publication of this podcast two days ago. So we have eclipse the 100,000 listens milestone, which is, I think it's pretty cool. I mean, 12 shows and 100,000 listens, not bad.

That's not bad at all. That's great. I'm blown away by just the sheer number of people who listen to this show every week. Yeah, it's awesome. It's really, really refreshing to know that people like what we're doing. So I like being liked. That's a good thing. Yeah, well, they certainly don't like me.

I'll take all the credit for not our guests, Not you. It's all me. It's all. This is welcome to the Brandon podcast. Starring Brandon Turner with guest host, Brandon Turner and guests Brandon Turner. Yes. Speaking of guests, we have an awesome guest today, somebody that's fairly new at real estate investing. Leon Yang, he's from the Las Vegas area.

And Josh, once you tell us a little bit about Leon, you knew him before I did. Yeah, well, so Leon. Leon is an interesting guy from Brooklyn, New York, New York in the house, who was born in China, raised in Brooklyn, originally set out to go ahead and get an MBA, and Leon, I guess, decided that the best education he was going to get would be by just hitting the street and getting into real estate investing. So back in 2011, he started investing.

investing in Las Vegas. Pretty much, the market was pretty close to bottom. And he's been buying houses, flipping, and borrowing money from strangers ever since. He's definitely an interesting guy. He's got a perspective that we haven't yet seen on the site, and we'll get into that a little bit.

What's cool, I think, is exactly, he's a newer investor who's really, really savvy, who understands the economics of real estate. And, you know, we'll get into his strategies further on. Before we start, though, let's go and knock this thing out, man. We got today's quick tip. Quick tip. Today's quick tip is using bigger pockets for your business.

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So you definitely want to download this thing, check it out. And we will have the link in the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 13. there is a short link to it, which is biggerpockets.com slash biz, and that will be the quick link to the PDF, biggerpockets.com slash bI-Z. Did you know your house gets bored when you leave? I can't actually prove that, but it probably misses out on the action, the footsteps, the late-night fridge raids. Yeah, when you're gone, your place is basically on unpaid leave.

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Now is the perfect time to review your rates and coverage. Get a quote in minutes at biggerpockets.com slash landlord insurance. Steadily, landlord insurance designed for the modern investor. So, enough of brand, and the Brandon show and Josh as his cohort. Why don't we get to our guest, Mr. Leon. So welcome to the show, Leon. All right, thanks, Josh and Brandon.

Quite excited. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thank you. This is going to be great. For sure, for sure. All right, man. Well, let's just jump right into this thing. How did you become a real estate investor?

Wow, it's quite a long story. I mean, I've always, I'm very entrepreneurial. I grew up around an entrepreneurial family. So I always wanted to run my own business. And I did do that one time coming out of college, trying to help my family build their business. But it was quite challenging. So then at that point, I wanted to,

I kind of consider about going to get an MBA and wanted to maybe give up and go to a 95 job. But at one point I've come across, I read the book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and it got me really excited about real estate. and my family had a lot of experience in real estate too. So, you know, and this point, it was in 2011. So I thought it's a, you know, it's a quite interesting time to be in real estate. Once I started following the market and I thought, wow, you know, and I grew up in New York.

So I was looking at houses in New York where it cost $600,000 for two family, you know, small house built in the 1940s. And then I look at the, you know, I just look at the biggest foreclosure markets in the U.S., which at that time was Vegas, Orlando, Miami, and Phoenix. And I was seeing houses that were selling for less than 100 grand and condos that were selling for less than 30, 40 grand. And I just couldn't believe my eyes. You know, I thought either the computer was playing a trick or had to find out what's going on. So it was that really, you know, and I was looking at the rental rates, you know, the rents were pretty normal, you know, for a house, it would be about $1,000. And, you know, for condos, it was maybe about $600, $6.50. So I started kind of working the math, and it just seemed to make a lot of sense.

So in 2011 July, I just kind of flew down there to all three cities and just wanted to get started that way. Wow. So you hop on a plane out of Brooklyn. You hadn't quite gotten your MBA. Had you started or no? I actually got accepted to a couple of NBA schools, but at that point, I decided this was the better opportunity for me. It's an opportunity that I think wouldn't have lasted that long.

So I had to make a decision, so I decided to get into real estate. And how did your parents feel about that? I think they've been very supportive in what I want to do in terms of entrepreneurship. So, you know, they looked at the prices and they couldn't believe their eyes. They just say, well, this can't be true. Sure. And that point, my parents have invested in China too. So it's just the way they compare prices just night and day.

So my dad just say, okay, I'll hop along with you. let's go to all these cities and let's find out what's going on. You know, at that point, we didn't know what kind of, what the cities would be like. You know, it could be completely barren, you know, people would have left. They could have been looking like a zombie town. We just didn't know. So we had to kind of hit the streets and find out. Now, Vegas does look like a zombie town, you know, it depends on the time of day.

You know, all the people walking around, you know, drunk and broke after losing all their money gambling. But is that a story? I had the story coming on there, Josh. No, there's no story. But I had a story with the MBA question. I mean, you know, after school, you know, I got into the entertainment business. And my parents were definitely not happy about me making that decision. And so, you know, I just know that families, you know, certain decisions they approve of or they don't.

And it just kind of popped in my brain. But I was going to go to law. I was going to go to law school. Yeah, that's a similar story. My parents weren't real thrilled when I said, I'm going to invest in real estate instead of go to law school and make six figures. And look where you are now. And look where I am now on the Bigger Pockets podcast Show 13,

which you can get in the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 13. Do you like that? Yeah, that was a great plug. Good plug. All right. So you get on a plane. You hop down to Vegas, down to Miami, and Phoenix. How did you guys decide which of those markets that you liked the best and ultimately settling on Las Vegas?

It was the zombies. That was what we decided. In all seriousness, I just saw that Vegas was kind of, to me, was surprisingly diverse in terms of their economics. They have military bases. They have a lot of trade shows, conventions, a lot of distribution, very business-friendly, landlord-friendly. So it was surprising once you get out of the zombie town out of the strip into the different areas. And being that is close to California and I just thought that, you know, it's a better market there. And also I feel like no one really wants to go visit Phoenix or Miami, Orlando as much as Vegas.

So it was a little bit of, hey, Vegas is pretty exciting. It's close to California. I think it's a, and it has a good, diverse business all over town, and it was growing rapidly. So I thought it was a pretty good town to be in. All right, man, now that's great. So you decide, you go to Vegas, Vegas has all this opportunity. It's a great town. The market was, you know, in the absolute floor.

You decide to get into this. Tell us about your first deal. How did that go? What was it? how to go down. Yeah, it took me about probably a month before I found my first property. I wanted to buy a, buy a, buy a, buy a, uh, buy an whole property. And I had to get familiar with the town. So for quite a month, I was just driving to every street, trying to figure out what's a good neighborhood. I wanted a good rental. So I spoke to quite a few agents. I finally found one that

seems to they do a lot of rehabs as well so they buy for closed homes rehab and sell it to investors so i thought it was a good way for me to get exposure to that because i wanted to fix up broken homes and get a better deal that way instead of just buying straight off fixed up properties where i may be paying you know maybe 20 15 20 percent more so it was a good learning experience for me to get started so we bought a house. It was in a great neighborhood. It took quite a long time, but the first house I got, it was a cost about 107, $107,000, and we spent $7,000 to rehab it into a good rental condition, which we ended up renting it for $11.50 a month. So that was a pretty good return. But later on, I kind of realized that I've paid way more than what I should have in order to rehab the place. But I was

very inexperienced. So that was sort of my launching point to start learning more and get involved with every aspect of the real estate, you know, rehabbing, buying, renting. So that was my launching point. Gotcha. That's good. Okay. So now was that, that was a single family, yeah? Yes, a single family, three, bedroom, two and a half bath. And how did you end up financing that? Was that just through your family or was that something, how did you go about it? Yeah, through my family, that's why I did through the first couple of deals before I started getting financing on my own. So it was sort of a launching point for me to start. And then by 2012, I was just doing all of them private seller finance.

Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. So private seller finance, why don't we talk about that a little bit? What does that mean? You know, for the newer folks listening, how does that work? What does it mean? What is private seller financing? Sure. Well, let's just start from the beginning. All I wanted to start was I want to build a bigger portfolio. So I knew in order to do that, I have to find some sort of financing to really make that work.

But at that point, I don't have a job. I don't have the W-2s to go to a bank and say, hey, I want to get a bank loan. So my idea was really it came out of actually attending the bigger pocket conference in Denver. And it got me to start. Yeah, it was great. I mean, I started learning all this about private seller financing, which is really going to the seller of the house who actually finance my purchase of their home. So if, say, for example, if Josh has a house and it's worth $100,000, you know, he may be

willing to say, you know what, Leon, if you put $10,000 down, I will sell it to you for 120, but I will give you the loan. So for a hundred, I'll finance you that $110,000 part, you know, at whatever interest rate I wanted to be maybe 5%, maybe 6%, and then, you know, I'll let you, you know, I'll give you a loan like a bank, maybe for 15 years, maybe for 30 years. So this is where we start negotiating, you know, so that Josh, on one hand, gets, you know, an income for selling their house. And for me, I could get a financing and I could put very little money down to buy a property. That's great.

No, that's a good tactic that certainly a lot of people use. And is that what you're using today as your primary source of financing? Are you pretty much focusing on scooping up those seller finance deals? Yeah, I'm really, that's really what I want to do now because it allows me to really quickly expand my portfolio because with bank loans, sometimes you might hit a limit of 10 properties and then you're stuck and you have to figure out another way to finance it. So for me, I'm able to do this with a limited number of houses and I can put sometimes I've put as little as $5,000 down for a house before. So it's all about trying to put as little money down, get as much financing as I can

and I think it's just a good opportunity. And given my circumstances, it works well for me. So how do you find those sellers? I mean, you can't, not everybody can just carry a loan, right? Yeah. Well, actually, I've been finding them on Craigslist, surprisingly. Oh, that's cool. It's like, look for ads out there.

You know, if it says, I'll type in keywords like seller financing, owner will carry OWC, 15-year, 20-year down payment, And keywords like that actually allows me to refine, you know, different sellers who are looking to sell via financing. And most of these sellers I do find, they typically tend to be older people who have multiple properties. They either they have it all paid for free and clear or they have it, you know, they have some sort of financing on their own. But these are the type of investors who are just, they got tired of man-lording. They just didn't want to manage anymore. and they just wanted a consistent income.

So that's how we get our conversation started. And they more or less know what's going on with their financing, how to finance it. So they're typically a bit more experience. And it works. So we are able to work a lot easier that way, simply because they know a bit more. No, that's great. Can you walk me through? All right.

I'm a brand new investor. I say, hey, this is a great idea. I want to buy these owner finance properties as well. I go on Craigslist and I type in some of that stuff, some of those keywords, and I find something that looks like a potentially good deal. You know, you get on the phone and you call these guys up. How does that conversation go? And, you know, I mean, what's the whole process of setting this thing up?

Sure. I do have sort of a specific strategy. Really, when I start, I don't go into saying, hey, I found your house on Craigslist. I want to buy it. What's the price right now? Let's negotiate. The point is the first to get to know them.

Why are they selling? What are they wants? What are they looking for? You have to sort of get to know them first. You have to build that report so that, you know, this is going to be for all seller finance deals. This is a long partnership where you're lending me money for 20, 30 years.

So there's a trust, and there has to be that kind of trust built into it. So we have to get to know each other better. So if I were to call you and try to buy your house, you know, I'm just, my first questions are going to be like, hey, Josh, you know, why are you selling, you know, what do you do? You know, what's going on in your life? We just get to know each other first.

So I do that usually typically about two or three conversations before we get into, you know, how to buy it. So I would approach it as my strategy is usually how much less I can put down because the less money I can put down, the higher leverage I can get. And some of my requirements is that if I have to make a monthly payment, including all the expenses and such, I would like to make sure I could get a rental income similar to that. So it sort of breaks even. Obviously, I could get more rental income compared to my expenses. That would be great. but I try to maintain that so I don't go too negative

because if I have to fill in money every month, it gets tough because there's only so many problems you can do before you have to shout out lots of money. So my focus is really payments and my down payment. Price, ultimate selling price, I'm a little bit more flexible because you have to remember that this is a long-term investment. So if you're going, you know,

what's the really big difference between $120,000, $140,000, that's something you worry about way far into the future. But what's important now is what you have to pay right now and what you can afford to pay monthly right now. So that's the type of approach I go with when negotiating for with a seller finance property owner. So are you are you looking for because you had said that that you know, cash flow for you you know, you're okay with I guess those break-even numbers when you're picking these things up, is that because you're focusing somewhat on the potential for appreciation? Or, you know, why would you? For me, you know, if I, on, you know, any type of income property, I'm always going to be looking for some minimum number

on income after every expense, after, you know, after my note, after taxes, insurance. I know some people say, hey, break-even's good because if I hold this property for a number of years, then suddenly I've got my equity built up. What's your strategy on that? I would say I'm a huge speculator. From when I first look into the market in Vegas, well, this is for me specifically. I knew that homes were selling for $300,000 in 2006. That's dropped below $100,000 in 2011. So I'm looking at it as well, the market is going to rebound.

You know, that's definitely going to happen. I don't know how long it might take. It might take five years. It might take seven years. But as far as I'm concerned, I believe that the market will go back up to 300. So how I would look at it is to say, well, I'd rather own a property that I'll have to break even. If I could get one more, every additional property works really well. I have been buying them between 120 to 150.

So if it ever goes up to 300 again, I stand to gain a lot more. So I'm really speculating, but I'm watching out for my monthly payments to make sure that I can do it. But I would definitely take a deal with his break even just because I want to add an extra one to my portfolio. So your strategy then is build a sizable portfolio of discounted properties that at the minimum break-even and in the event that we see the turnaround that a lot of markets are seeing right now. In fact, the big news today is Washington, D.C. are seeing the highest prices ever. I know here in Denver prices are skyrocketing again. And your hope is let's just see that appreciate.

And then what then do you sell out? Do you refi and pick up more properties? What's the decision at that point? Well, it really depends on the market. If it gets up to, say, 300 again or when it gets a little crazy, I would rather pull out equity out of it, refi, if possible. Because that's money taken out. that's not taxable. It's not taxed. So if I were to sell everything, then I would have to pay a capital

gains tax and that could end up in a huge amount. So with that, I can pull out and I could also still keep the property. Who knows, it might go up again. So that's kind of a strategy. So what if, what if in five years or 10 years or 15 years, it hasn't, you know, what if it hasn't gone up and you're still sitting on these properties that are break-even. What do you do then? Well, I will have to say that in five, 10, 15 years, the rents aren't going to be the same. It will probably go up. If you look back at what you pay for rent 10, 15 years ago, it's a lot different than what you're

paying now. However, all my debts are fixed. So the payments are going to be fixed. So in 10, 15 years, those payments are actually going to worth a lot less. And also because of the benefits of paying down the debt, in 10, 15 years, my debts are going to be a lot lower than what I have now. So even if it doesn't appreciate, I can still gain the benefits of higher rent, fixed payments, and things like that. So it's kind of a win, win, win, no matter what happens. I mean, even if the worst happens and you break even for the next 20 years, you're still not.

I'm going to go bankrupt and run out, you know. It's not that bad. It's definitely an interesting, you know, strategy. It's different than what a lot of people do and different what I do. But that's why I love talking to different investors here on the podcast, because everyone has their own kind of own method of investing. And, yeah, it's not a bad idea. I know I couldn't do that.

Like, I wouldn't do that in my area because I don't have any appreciation in my area. We don't swing like the rest of the country does as much. But Las Vegas, I know you guys go up and. down quite a bit in places like that. I used to be a stock trader. So we would, you know, we would look for, you know, we would chart and set up, you know, look at different things. I mean, I remember I used to, I used to trade, you know, certain stocks and I'd watch

for that thing to be between a certain range. And basically, you knew the low, you knew the high and you'd just kind of watch it. You'd try and jump in at the low and, you know, pop out when it was starting to get to the top of that range that it was consistently selling at. The market changed. it stopped doing that and my strategy didn't work anymore for me. But, you know, obviously, you know, there's definitely, as Brandon said, I mean, there's certainly various strategies.

It wouldn't be one that I would do. But like he said, I mean, I think it's, it's cool to hear, you know, that there are so many different paths that other people will take. And we can all learn from each other with these things. So it's great. Now, what are some of the dangers? What are some of the negatives to seller financing? Is there a downside to it?

Yeah, there are definitely some downsides to that. With every additional property you borrow from, even say if you're cash flow positive or break even, you're taking additional risk because you could have that one extra property having vacancy or major repairs. And if the more you have, the more likely, that several of them are going to happen at once. And so with that happening, say if you had 20 houses and five of them go vacant, you know,

that's huge hit on your cash flow as opposed to if you had five houses and one of them goes vacant. So then you make sure that you have to have a huge cash reserve in the back just in case any of these things happen. And if you have that cash reserve and you get used it up and you can't replenish it, then you really know that you actually over leverage yourself and you're putting yourself into a lot of danger. With that being said, a lot of these seller finance properties are done on a one-to-one basis. So, you know, if things doesn't work out, you can't let one go. You won't lose it all at once as opposed to say maybe if you have a bank loan and you go to fall and, you know, you might have to, you know, you could lose them all.

But, you know, so those are dangers that come with borrowing too much. So, and I know I'm harping on this. I have friends who will buy properties without cash flow, and it frustrates me. Because I am, I'm, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I might have done the speculation thing. I can't do it today. I can't rep my head around it because to me it's way too risky. If you can find these deals and these opportunities that break even, you know, Can you also then not just hold on a little bit, you know, to hold out for maybe deals that do cash flow?

Or, I mean, it just, you know, to you, it just doesn't matter because the other strategies, the other exits are in play. And it just, you know, it works. Well, yeah. And really, that sort of depends on the market as in the market in Vegas. And I'm sure in a lot of different places, there are really no inventories right now. And because of that, you sometimes have to, you know, chase for chase a little harder. Definitely when I first started it, I was able to find some of the better deals where I could be a bit more cash flow positive. But with the run-up in the market, with no inventories, sellers who carries tend to have a bit more say. You know, they could actually demand a bit more than what I can get.

So I have to make some of the tradeoffs. With that being said, you know, the reason I'm willing to speculate is, because in Vegas, you can't build a house at the prices I have been buying for. So I knew that there's no way prices will stay that way. Otherwise, no house will ever get built again in that city. So I knew that eventually it would go up. And another interesting thing is I looked at my insurance policy and I see my property coverage, you know, exceeds the price I pay for the house several times sometimes.

So when I asked them why they do that, they say, well, this is, what it will cost us to build, rebuild you the house. So I knew that there was a room there to grow and, you know, given what's been happening in the Vegas market ever since I started, it has already jumped, you know, 30 to 50 percent. And I think it will only go up higher, but it may take a bit longer time. Got it. Now, now in a market like Vegas, I see that making sense, you know, buying for less than the replacement cost of the property itself. But then you, you can say, hey well why not I can do that let me go to Detroit where I can buy a house for four dollars and you know I I wouldn't be caught dead doing that you know you can give me a

five dollar Detroit house because I don't want it you know and and you know you know the replacement cost is certainly more than the five or five thousand or ten thousand dollars you can pay to get a house so your strategy may work in a place like Vegas where um the the city is growing, the city's still doing well, but you want to be careful to avoid a place a city that's kind of dying like a Detroit. Right, exactly. I agree. And that's why you have to go see the city, you know, go see every block, see what the stores are doing,

see how the people are, see what the economy is like. You have to do that kind of research in the market you want to invest in before you come up with your investing strategy. So you have to definitely visit the city first. Yeah. I just wanted to make the first. I just wanted to make that point because, you know, I worry that somebody listening might say, oh, well, I could get cheap properties, you know, in Detroit.

And sorry, Detroit, I am going to pick on you. But, you know, hey, I could get these cheap properties there. Maybe that strategy will work for me. And I would personally say, do not do this, period. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's all about knowing your market. Yeah, definitely. Well, cool.

So I guess we talked about borrowing money a little bit. So let's go back to real basic. Some people are totally opposed to borrowing money. And I wanted to get your thoughts on that, because I know you've talked about that a little bit on the blog and stuff. But I guess fundamentally, why do we borrow money? I mean, what's the idea behind that? Well, fundamentally, I think the borrowing money is really to get you to the ability

to do something that you normally wouldn't be able to do. If you had to buy the house with all your money, you're spanning a huge amount of capital, which not everybody have. I mean, you could be, you know, for a $100,000 house, you know, if you could pay $10,000 to get it, it's a lot different than just paying $100,000 all cash. So it's about being able to do something that you can't do normally. That's the first reason. And then the second one, I think right now, given the low interest rates, I mean, interest rates have never been this low before.

And if you could get a 30-year fixed loan on this kind of interest rate, just think about, you know, what happens if ever interest rate would go up. You know, people might be, if you look at the past history, people have paid 18% interest rates before, you know. And here you are paying what, three to four percent. That's huge. And then you have to look at the economy as a whole. You have to sort of study the economy. And right now, I think we'll be hitting a lot of inflation. because Bernanke just likes to throw money out of helicopters.

So when I study the market, I've seen what happens when he throws money out because U.S. dollar is traded all over the world. You start to see inflation going all over different countries with dollars flowing into them. And you can see what happens is that inflation kind of destroys a lot of things. But one thing that inflation doesn't destroy is the very very. that, you know, it's a value of your debt. You know, if you owe $100,000 and inflation went up 100%, in reality, you're really owe $50,000 now.

So that's a huge trend that I think we'll be seeing in the next three or five years with inflation coming back around to the U.S. And if you have debt, that means your debt is just going to go lower and lower. So with a 30-year, 3 to 4% interest rate kind of debt that gets devalued even more. I mean, that's, it's almost like a no-branded. you have to borrow money if you can right now. No, no, that makes sense. I mean, yeah, interest rates, I just got a loan for, I think, three and a half percent.

And that's not a primary residence. But, yeah, still, I mean, that's ridiculously cheap. So definitely I'm one of those. I like to play that math game, you know, if I can borrow it at three and a half and I can, you know, make 15 or 20 or 30. Obviously, that works out. I mean, there's a part of me, though, that still tries to, you know, I'm a big fan of Dave Ramsey and, you know, paying off debt and getting out of debt no matter what. You know, I'm very split. I have kind of a dual personality. So I kind of treat my business

with playing the math game and I try to run my personal life with get out of debt as fast as possible and lower expenses. So, no, I definitely, I hear you there. Did you know your house gets bored when you leave? I can't actually prove that, but it probably misses out on the action, the footsteps, the late night fridge raids. Yeah. When you're gone, your place is basically on unpaid leave. It's sitting there in the dark thinking, I could be contributing right now. Your side room wants a side hustle. Even your Wi-Fi is like, we could be networking.

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with a DSCR price beat guarantee. That means faster closing, the best terms, zero guesswork. That's Dominion financial. Check them out at biggerpockets.com slash dominion. Again, that's biggerpockets.com slash dominion. Let's go over to a little bit. Let's talk about people who want to get into real estate investing because you're fairly new at this. So you have a little bit, I think, fresher insight on what you got to do to get started. So maybe like what are what are some skills that you think are really important to succeed in real estate? Well, I think the first part I would say is education. You have to get a good financial education. You have to understand things like the time value of money,

amortization, budgeting, interest rates, inflation, banking, all of those really plays a huge role all around real estate as much as you don't usually think about it. But as you can see, what we spoke before, I didn't come up with my investing strategy without having a long-term understanding of what the market could be,

what I can do with that, and things like that, which are very important to building a good, successful real estate business. It's not just about being a good landlord or finding a great deal. You have to look at a lot of things long term. So that's the first one. The second one, I think, is very important

is the people skills. Real estate is really a people business. It's not about just say, hey, let me find an agent. They would go through MLS and find all I need. I just need to look at the numbers. You have to talk to people. You'll be talking to sellers.

You'll be talking to other investors. And it's like bigger pockets. It's a community you have to get involved with to help each other out. And that's where you learn the tips and tricks. You learn the good strategies, a lot of insights, none of which you will be able to get if you're not a people person. So it's all about you have to build good rapport. You have to come across as an honest person.

You have to be trustworthy. The reputation, as Josh always used to say, is extremely important. So you have to have a good reputation. You know, you have to keep to your word. And, you know, as long as you do all those things, you know, deals will come. People will come to you. You'll get help. You'll be able to help others.

So that will really build your success. And I've seen that happen, you know, thanks to me really starting to get involved, attending bigger pockets, reaching out to other investors and really learning how to communicate better with people, that really built my business in 2012 and really allowed me to expand my business. I've never thought I could do it. But that was really tremendous. So those are the two kind of the two main things you have to have, I feel. Now, that's great. You know, the, and I still think reputation is important. And I still think credibility is important. It's amazing that I think most people don't realize how important it is.

And what kills me is when I see new people come onto our website and they start off their careers by lying. And that just frustrates me to no end because, you know, I can't tell you, I mean, I know almost every guest we've had on the show has talked about credibility or reputation. I know the people that I know and respect the most all talk about it. And the people who are successful, they focus on that. And so, you know, if you start by lying and, you know, manipulating and just, you know, pretending to be things that you're not, it's such a dangerous path to take. Hey, I've got deals in 50 cities. Yeah.

And I've got somewhere between $500,000 and $10 billion to lend you, Brandon. Well, I work with a network of investors. I do have a network of investors myself that I tend to work with from time to time. Yeah. So, no, listen, I mean, the credibility thing is really important. And, no, I'm really glad that, you mentioned that. Now, so you're, you know, what's interesting about you to me and one of the reasons we want to have you on the show is, you know, you haven't been doing this for 10 years. You know, you're a pretty new investor.

You're a very smart guy and you bring a pretty interesting perspective. But so you haven't been doing it for too long. That said, you know, we all have our little emotions when we do things. And, you know, I love bigger pockets every day except that one day that it drives me nuts and I fall out of love with it. And then the next day, Brandon, you know, smacks me around and suddenly I'm back in on it. But what about you in real estate? You know, have you ever fallen out of love with real estate? Yeah, I've definitely had fallen out of love before.

And it all started at one point early in 2012 when I was doing a lot of deals trying to buy several houses a month, finding tenants, doing the rehab, running around town. I was doing more than 12 hours a day on the field. And when I get home, I was on the computer looking for different deals, several hours. I just talk real estate all day. I was just at one point, you know, my ex-girlfriend was just like, you're boring the crap out of me. And I think it's that kind of thing where, you know, I had no time for anything else. Wait, is she your ex-girlfriend because of real estate because of the 12 hours a day? No.

Oh, okay. Okay, we'll move on. Maybe. Real estate and relationships don't go together. Yeah, it's challenging, definitely. For people who could do it as a couple, I have a lot of respect for that. But yeah, I mean, I was driving all day. You know, I was grabbing whatever I can eat.

You know, I really think there's a, you know, a positive correlation between real estate, hard work, and the size of your belly. Like, it was just like, you know, it was a healthy lifestyle. I was starting to hate it. You know, I was just saying there was a lot of stress. there's a lot of stuff to do and my mind was all over the place. So it took me a while before I realized, you know, I do need to find balance as much as I would, I love real estate. I have to strike a good balance between real estate and personal life.

You know, I started kind of changing that concept because I realized, yeah, you could chase that extra dollar, but at what cost? You know, you might be have to sacrifice a lot more to take your ticket to a new level, but you have to strike that balance. Otherwise, it's too difficult. So I kind of start taking a little bit of a step off, trying to get a good balance. I started eating better, exercising more,

doing some traveling and pursuing my other hobbies or interests. And that kind of makes me feel better. It's, you know, at the end of the day, while you're doing all this, if real estate fails, at least I had a good time, you know, doing it. That's kind of you want to, I feel like it's good to approach it that way. And real estate is a long-term game. You'll be doing this for 10, 20, 30 years.

You don't want to burn out at the third year or the fifth year. You have to last until the end. You have to cross that finish line. And if you run too fast, you might just end up burning out and get out of the game before you really, truly get all the benefits. So 80 hours a week of work isn't healthy? No. Well, you look pretty healthy right now.

so I guess all of us can do it. It's not healthy. Trust me. It's not healthy. Well, I want to point out real quick that there was an article you wrote that you talked all about this on the Bigger Pockets blog. It was called What is your real estate lifestyle? It was actually probably my favorite blog post has come out in months.

I really liked it because you talked about all this stuff that, you know, there is a place for hustle and there's a place when you're starting out and you're working a full-time job. I mean, you got to work. And you got to work at you. Yeah, you got to hustle. But there's also a place for, like you said, live in a balanced life. And I, you know, I'm like you. I tend to obsess.

And I like go in and I'll work 80 hours on my real estate. And, yeah, it's not healthy. So I really like that post. That actually, like, at that point, I showed to my wife, I said, I need to follow this guy's advice. And I need to like, I need to be content sometimes, I think, with, you know, just following the system. I mean, real estate can be kind of boring sometimes. I mean, it's exciting and fun, but at the same time, buying, hold investing isn't, I mean, it's a pretty, like, standard thing. You buy property that is going to go up in value and that has cash flow.

And, I mean, that's, yeah. So, anyway, very, very good article. And we will link to that in the Bigger Pockets show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 13. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely, you know, yeah, that balance is important. I think you have to enjoy it, right? Like you said, you have to keep loving real estate.

If you just give up, you hustle too hard. Yeah, you burn out and that's it. You know, you give up the game way too early. And that's the hard part. Yeah, but like you said, you have to hustle when you start. Yeah. Well, and I'll say, listen, I mean, for me, as I always like to say to everybody, I mean, family for me is the most important thing, you know,

and Brandon knows he and I are on the, you know, the computer on Skype every day. You know, if my kids need me, I'm going to deal with my kids. You know, I mean, and so I think, you know, there's one thing to go out and build, you know, this is a philosophy, right? You can agree or tell me I'm an idiot. I don't care. But, you know, my philosophy is, listen, I mean, I'm doing what I do for my family, period, right? And so if you work so hard that, you know, unfortunately, you know, maybe you lose your girlfriend, but you learn your perspective how to kind of create that balance so it doesn't happen again. the future, you've now learned that lesson so that you don't make, you know, the mistake again,

and now you kind of find a balance. Or you find somebody who, you know, works within the, mentality that you have, right? And so I think, you know, I think it's just important that we all kind of find our own balance and our own centers and we all figure out what works best for us. But I think if you just work non-stop and, you know, yeah, you're rich, but, you know, are you rich in money or are you rich in life? And I always say be rich in life instead of rich in money. So, you know, that's just kind of my take on it all. Yeah, I definitely agree with you in that aspect.

Yeah, I think it's the experiences in life that really makes what life interesting. It's not about how much money you have. Yeah, that's great. Well, how about your investing, have you considered investing elsewhere? Have you considered looking at different markets, for example, or do you have other types of focus in real estate? Or, you know, let's talk about that a little bit. Well, yeah, I have definitely considered that. I've looked at many different cities over the U.S., just different markets.

But personally, I think what's most important is invest in your own home market just because you get to, you know the city inside out. It's very easy for you to get to the place, very easy to manage. Whereas if you were to say, oh, I want to invest in Houston, I want to invest in inland empire. I want to invest in, you know, let's say not Detroit, but, you know, if you keep going over the place all over, you just end up wasting airfare time. You know, you have a lot of risk because you have to build a team you could trust in those places. And you really, your way to spread out. You know, with that being said, I think it's important to know what your home market is, right? If you live in Detroit, I'll suggest you invest elsewhere.

But, you know, it really depends on how your home market is. And also, you know, on the other hand, if you live in New York, L.A., San Francisco, you're paying $500,000, $600,000, you might only be able to rent enough for maybe $1,500 to $2,000. So you're getting a very low return as opposed to, say, a market in Vegas where you're getting 7%. And if you compare a 2% return and a 7% return and you compound it over 15, 20 years, you know, as Warren Buffett would say, you know, that's the power of compounding is extremely huge. You know, you're earning a much greater return at a market where you don't have to spend as much to invest in. And I think a big part of that, too, is, I mean, even a city like Detroit, there are probably a lot of areas around there that you could have. invest and it would make sense. Same with New York. There's probably places. I mean, I know L.A. is insane. And, you know, my good buddy, Arthur Garcia, who we had on podcast at number six,

he talks about, you know, where he lives. I mean, every property is, you know, $6,000, $800,000, but he drives two hours to invest in his area. And so he's a little inconvenient. He has to go out there, you know, every couple weeks or whatever to drive a few hours. But, you know, it works out for because there's always somewhere you can go usually within two or three hours driving that you can invest in. So if you're located in an area like that, just look around, you don't have to invest in the city.

Yeah, and, you know, we're beating up on Detroit here. And, you know, I mean, for a good reason, you know, I will say, you know, I've personally been the victim of declining areas, right? And so, you know, it's, you know, you might be able to pick up a property in Detroit for five, 10,000 bucks, and you might be able to find a tenant. But if the jobs all go away, which is kind of the path that, you know, a lot of these

Rust Belt cities are experiencing, unfortunately, and hopefully some of the politicians can figure out how to turn things around up there, you know, it's a really risky bet. It's a really risky bet. And, you know, I think there's a difference between speculating, informed speculating, and just flat out speculating, right? I could go and say, hey, I got, I got, you know, I got a ton of money. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to just buy up 50 houses in Detroit on the hope that, you know, I'm going to get cash flow and whatever happens. But they might raise all those properties.

I mean, they might, you know, knock them down, you know, because they can't maintain them anymore because they don't have now infrastructure and, you know, police and fire to take care. So, you know, cities are shrinking. So, you know, there's that risk. And I know we're beating up on Detroit here. but, you know, it's time for any politicians who are listening to get their act together and figure out how to fix things. I mean, it frustrates me to know when I'm going to just keep going on, so you better interrupt me. I'm going to go on a rant here, guys. You better cut me off. No, I agree with you. It's definitely the fundamentals of right.

You can't, and that's why I go back about studying markets long-term, having a long-term planning, because if you just go into Detroit and just looking at right now, yeah, they're completely cheap. But, you know, yeah, like you said, what's the city going to look like in 10, 15 years? If they don't get their act together, then you're essentially taking a huge risk. So it's really about, you know, you have to study everything when it comes to real estate. No, that's great, Leon. That's awesome. So I want to go to one more thing before we kind of start wrapping things up. In a lot of your blog posts, you mentioned that now is the good time to invest in real estate.

You've said it a few times that now is a great time. So can you expand on that? And why do you think now is such a good time to invest? Yeah, sure. First, home prices have been depressed for quite a while now. I mean, sure, they're starting to go back up. And it might start going faster and faster. Who knows?

But right now at this point, with the low interest rates, with the low home prices, a lot of homes are affordable. And there haven't been that many times when it's cheaper to buy a house than to rent. You know, rent hasn't felt as much as home prices. So you're getting, you're still getting a good return on your money. And especially with the economy right now, think about people like pension plans, retirees, I mean, savers. They're getting what, like, 0.5% money on their bank? Yeah.

You know, they're getting like, what, 2% on a government bond? I mean, that doesn't even go above inflation. If you just leave your money lying around there, you're losing it all. And, you know, so what are the other options? You know, you invest in the hedge fund and a stock market. You know, those are extremely volatile markets, as Josh will probably tell you. So it's that kind of, you know, you have to look for a safer investment. And I think real estate at this point, it's extremely safe given that even if you do a, you get a loan, you leverage your deal, you're still getting a good rental income compared to the payments you have to make.

at three or four percent is never going to happen again. And personally, again, I think inflation will hit the U.S. within three or five years. You know, we already see that, you know, like, you know, little things like gas prices are. We're seeing it, man. Inflation has definitely been here over the past, you know, a bunch of years. I mean, groceries, yeah, you name it. I mean, it's here.

It's here. Yeah, Big Macs. They're, what, tiny sliders now? you can't even eat on the airplane you know it's things like that you know there's not enough alcohol content in your drinks now you know they're cutting that's the cutting it that way you know there's one way where they you know prices go on one way quality gets worse but it's all about you know that's going to hit us and if we don't own anything that's real which could be houses you know a barrel of oil you know gold if you don't own those things you know paper is going to

work a lot less over time. So you want to own something. I think real estate having a home, you know, two important things, right, you need food and shelter. So I think shelter is one of those things. You know, I don't think anyone, you know, can all buy a farm and grow their own food, but they can buy a house and that will protect their value of their asset, you know, whatever money they had at that point. You know, real estate always goes up with inflation. Nice. Well, it doesn't always go up. It doesn't always. We get the wiggle wobble, yeah, for sure, for sure.

Clearly you're a bright guy and you get it. And this is really interesting stuff. And we can kind of sit here and banter about what the market's doing and where it's going. I think, you know, ultimately it's important, you know, kind of the message here is people need to understand markets and people have to have knowledge of the fundamentals. because it is important, you know, just knowing the price of a single house is, isn't necessarily enough. You know, and I know, again, I fell, I fell victim to this. And when I had property whose properties around it started to become dilapidated and started to become vacant and problem

properties. And suddenly I found myself in a situation where I couldn't, I couldn't keep tenants and I couldn't sell the darn property. And I had, you know, I was, I was in trouble. I was in trouble. And it was because I was not paying close enough attention to what the market was doing. And so that's, I think it's so, so important for people to really pay attention and understand that. But with that, we're starting to get to the end here of show 13, biggerpockets.com slash show 13 on the show notes. So let's get to our famous final questions here.

Let's start with our favorite real estate book. What's your favorite? Favorite real estate book, huh? Well, I would say it's the Bigger Pockets, Beginners Guide. Yeah. Yeah. The ultimate beginners guys. Nice.

And BiggerPockets.com slash UBG for those of you. who want to check out the Ultimate Beginners Guide. And it's free. It is a free book. But Leon, come on, man. Give us another book besides ours. Although, we'll certainly let you plug our book

all you want. Well, I read too many real estate books. But, you know, I'll just say I have to give it up to Rich Dad, for that that's what got me started. Not the greatest book in the world, but still got me started. And that was what launched,

where I am today. So I thought that was really helpful and kind of understanding the concept between being a worker and being a investor. Got it. Cool. Got it.

Got it. All right. How about your favorite non-real estate business book? Oh, man. Investment biker by Jim Rogers. He does a lot of traveling. You know, the way we talk about markets,

he went to everywhere, you know, just to seeing what different countries are like and I thought that was really interesting as he was able to predict a lot of things that's happening 10 years in the future and he was able to see you know how countries are doing so that kind of inspired me to hopefully when they do the same travel everywhere to you know maybe hopefully you know provide that kind of insights to other people you know if I can and what is the significance of a penguin that's uh this is what happens when you have to make up a name in the middle of the night.

It's, all right, well, the story goes to back in the days when I was going to, when I was in high school in New York, we had the phase where we're really baggy pants. And you don't have belts, so you kind of have to waddle a little bit as you walk. That's where one of the, it called Penguin for that. Leon, the Baggy Pant Penguin. That's awesome. Yeah, that is often. And of course, that, that.

relates to your website, which is... Okay, hardworking penguin.com. Just one penguin. No two, just one. Hardworking. Not really, but, you know, do make a visit, you know, read the finance stuff, the real estate stuff.

I do try to, you know, again, it's about getting a well-rounded education. I think that really helps everyone to become a better investor, you know, better with their money, things like that. What about hobbies, Leon? What do you do for fun? I know you travel, but... I like to travel and I like to eat.

I like to eat a lot of different things. I was born in China, so we're taught to eat everything that moves. That's kind of cool. You know, I try different cuisines. I really enjoy investing. I enjoy writing. You know, I... Besides real estate, one day in the future, maybe I would look to invest in different markets.

Again, it's... I enjoy reading and getting a lot of knowledge. and that helps me become a better investor. So do try to tell jokes, but I don't think that's going well. Well, okay, the last question. It is the one that I ask everybody. And what do you think that sets apart the new investors who come and they succeed and they do well

from those who come and disappear? What is it that sets apart the successful ones? Well, I think it's the successful ones are the ones who jump into it and do it right away. You know, they get right down to it. I think a lot of new investors,

they might get scared by, you know, what if this doesn't work out? You know, have I done enough research? You know, maybe it's not the right time yet. There's a lot of paralysis with,

I think, the new investors who don't succeed. And, you know, you can't get it right the first time. You know, everyone's going to make mistakes, but you have to learn from those mistakes. And I think a lot of the successful ones

are probably the one that jump right into it and then figure it out as they go along, you know, put themselves at risk, but just to make it happen. At least that's how I felt like when I first jumped in. So maybe I can't really call myself successful yet, but I do notice that if I were to say, oh, I haven't done enough research, I have to do this, I have to wait, you know, maybe I need to talk to somebody, maybe this market is way too scary for me, then I would have never been here today talking to you guys. Yeah, for sure, for sure.

All right, Leon, so listen, where else can people find you? Obviously, I can find you on the draggy pant website, the hardworking penguin. No, the site is an informative, valuable website, which is where we found. I see Brandon falling out of his chair. But they can find you on bigger pockets, obviously, and we'll link to that in the show notes. Are you on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, anything else? Can people connect with you there? Yeah, I am on Facebook.

Leon Yang, my name. There's a lot of them. So just try to find my face. We'll link to it, fortunately. I have Twitter, I think. It's Hard W. Penguin. And LinkedIn, my name, again, look for Vegas. You should be able to find me.

Nice. And we'll link to that stuff. Well, listen, man, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on board. And of course, thanks for continuing to contribute really great content, great articles to the Bigger Pockets blog. We appreciate having you on the show. Yeah, I really appreciate you guys giving me an opportunity. And definitely, Bigger Pockets is so great.

It just taught me so much and gave me access to a lot of really good investors. So, you know, I learned so much from it. So whatever I can do to give back, I'll do my best. and this is a really awesome site. Oh, thanks, man. Thank you. Thank you, Leon. All right, everybody, that was show 13 of the Bigger Pockets podcast.

Hopefully you guys found it to be valuable as we have, as valuable as we have. We want to thank, of course, our guest, Leon Yang, for being here. And, you know, I just want to thank everybody for listening. For those of you who are new to the show, if you found it valuable, we ask that you please go to iTunes to leave us a review. These reviews are really helpful

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thank you for listening. Again, BiggerPockets.com. Podcast 13. And we'll see you next time. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio. Simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you're in the right place.

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