BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 13 Rental Units with a “Rinse and Repeat” Investing Method

Starting point is 00:00:00 This investor bought a property worth $1.5 million in a great neighborhood in a major U.S. city with only $35,000 cash in 2024. It is actually possible. Hey, friends, welcome back to the Bigger Pockets podcast. I'm Dave Meyer, head of real estate investing here at Bigger Pockets. And today on the show, we're talking with Mike Johnson, an investor in Chicago. Mike started his investing journey with a $13,000 down payment on a duplex in 2021, and he has house hacked his way into 13 units in just four years. Now he's living in one of Chicago's most desirable neighborhoods with thousands of dollars in monthly cash flow and the potential for millions in appreciation over the next couple of years. And Mike isn't doing anything that the vast majority of people can't

Starting point is 00:00:54 do. He's found deals on the market. He's putting down as little as possible. He's done relatively hands-off renovation. And now he's sitting on this incredible portfolio just a couple of years later. Mike today is going to tell us how his deep analysis of investing options has led to real estate in the first place, how one of the more extreme problem tenants I've ever heard of led to a free rehab for him and why he's a fan of the extremely long clothes. So here we go. This is me talking with investor, Mike Johnson. Mike, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here. Nice to meet you, Dave. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. Yeah. So give us a little bit of background. What were you doing when you first got into real estate? And how long ago is that?

Starting point is 00:01:40 So I got into real estate four years ago during COVID in 2020. And I was a medical device sales rep that sold devices in the operating room. So once COVID happened, we were restricted access to hospitals, which was a major part of my day. Ironically, this was about the same time where I had no student debt anymore, and I had this nest egg that was building. So naturally, I started looking at investment vehicles on where do I park my money for the best return long term? And that's when I stumbled upon real estate and kind of started edging my way to my first deal. Great. Congrats on paying off your student debt, by the way. That's always a really good feeling and an important step on anyone's early retirement or financial freedom journey. So tell me a little bit about the type of.

Starting point is 00:02:23 of investments you're interested in because I think, you know, people get to this point where you have a little bit of capital. It's a great place to be. You could choose to go into flipping. You could do long-term rentals, short-term rentals. What appeal to you first about real estate? I know when some people invest in real estate, they use it as a means to an end to kind of get out of the daily grind, quit their W-2 and kind of do this full-time. I have the kind of contrary approach to that where I enjoy my W-2 job. So I am a long-term buy-and-hold investor. I've done four house hacks essentially at this point in my investment journey. So up to 13 units across four buildings.

Starting point is 00:02:59 And for me, it's really just to build that passive income. And it gives me security in my W-2 job so that I can take more career risks with positions to get new experiences that may entail a pay cut. Whereas if I didn't have this as a fallback, maybe I would be less prone to taking those risks in my W-2. We're long-term, I think that's going to pay dividends for higher-level roles that require that you have some diversified. experiences. And so it's actually helped progress me in my W-2 career. And I just, it's a fun side hustle. It's

Starting point is 00:03:29 your own business. It's yours. And it's fun to see it grow. So set the seed. Where do you live? And is that where you chose to invest as well? It is. So I was born and raised in Wisconsin, a small town of 5,000 people, but I moved to Chicago about seven and a half years ago. So I've been here ever since I took the medical device sales job. But interestingly enough, my first deal is actually in Milwaukee. You know, we can kind of get into the reason why I chose Milwaukee market, but then the other three deals have been in Chicago where I currently reside. All right.

Starting point is 00:03:59 Yeah, let's get into it. Because, I mean, if you listen to the show, you know, Henry has, I love the term he dubbed of Lake Effect cash flow, which is just that anywhere in the Great Lakes region, the Midwest, there is high potential for cash flow. I think Chicago falls into that. But Milwaukee is always kind of one of those standouts when you look at lists of places that do offer cash flow. Milwaukee's always up there. So is that why you targeted it? It is. So for me, actually, you know, once I got into the Bigger Pockets podcast, the books, did the free webinars on

Starting point is 00:04:28 how to underwrite. After I kind of took that in, I looked at the markets, right? A duplex two to four unit in Chicago versus Milwaukee, dramatic difference in the cash that you need to invest. So for me, in my geography for my medical device sales job, I covered Milwaukee a lot of rural, Illinois and parts of Chicago. So I could technically move and live in Milwaukee. So I could technically move and live in Milwaukee and still do my day job, but I would have to invest far less cash. And so for me, Milwaukee is one of the most heavily concentrated duplex cities in the country. And so there's a lot of options. And so that's why I decided that if there's any fires that I have to put out in person for some reason, I could drive there and be there in an hour 20. So just having that comfort of my

Starting point is 00:05:07 first investment property, that's kind of all the reasons why I chose Milwaukee. Oh, cool. And did you house hack? Like, did you actually live there? So I did a 10% down owner occupancy loan. And it's kind of funny. So right around when we closed, my geography changed from they took away all my Wisconsin and they gave me Iowa. So I call my lender and I said, hey, I got to just be honest with you. Here's my geography and when it's shifting in the new fiscal year. I can't move Milwaukee, but like, what do I do? And he just said, you know, as long as you change your insurance, he's like, you had intent when we closed to live there, we're okay with it, but obviously confirm with us, write us a letter telling us what happened. And I had the documentation, right,

Starting point is 00:05:46 with my geography changes every year. And so I never ended up moving into that property, but I did do a 10% down owner-Akimsy loan. So that was November of 2020, and the duplex was $128,000 in Milwaukee to give some context. All right. Nice. $128,000. You put 10% down. So I assume with closing costs and everything somewhere around 17, 18, maybe up to 20 grand was kind of like what you needed to get into that deal. Yeah, $19,000 is essentially, you know, what I put into the deal itself had a 2.8% rate. So of course, we all know that the rates were very low at that point. Do you remember what it took to carry that? Like, what was your monthly expense all in? So my PITI, I mean, right now is it's 922. So principal insurance, taxes and interest. The

Starting point is 00:06:33 building's bringing in $1,700 a month. Wow. That's awesome. There's a nice spread on there. And I've had the same tenants all four years. Wow. Zero vacancy. They're happy to live there. You know, the units were recently redone when I bought the place. And so, it's a nice spread on. And so, It's been, yeah, very low lift to kind of maintain that property. That's amazing. Well, very cool. I just want to reemphasize what Mike just said to everyone listening is that Mike was able to get into his first duplex for under $20,000 total.

Starting point is 00:07:00 Of course, prices have changed. But this type of strategy where you're getting an owner-occupant loan with 10% down, even if that went up to $250, you know, maybe it goes from $19,000 to $25,000, but just demonstrates that these types of lower money down, options are still available. I love hearing that your PITI is under $1,000. Like that three-digit monthly payment is a rare thing, probably pretty hard to find these days. Hold on to that for dear life. Yeah, nothing's really come close to that sense of that. But it was a great first step into real estate investing and, and no regrets with the first property at all up to this point.

Starting point is 00:07:37 Why do you think that you've had tenants for four years? Like, is there anything you did in the screening, anything that you looked for, that you attribute that success to you. You know, because as we, as we all know, vacancy kills zeals. So for me, I just, you know, first and foremost, yes, I am the landlord, but I try to just be a human, right? So I have conversations with them. If there's any issues, I'd just say, just text me directly. They didn't have a very good property management company managing the building before. So, you know, I introduced myself and I just kind of talk to them and say, hey, you know,

Starting point is 00:08:06 is there anything that you basically want fixed right off the bat? Can we take care of that? And then anytime there's an issue, I get it taken care of right away. So they trust me. There's open communication. And so when it comes to resigning the lease, I've, I've increased rent two of the four years, but I always provide comps. I always give them undermarket rent.

Starting point is 00:08:25 And but then they have justification of, all right, if I move, I'm going to pay more per month. And then it's moving costs. And so they've just decided to stay every year. And so it's worked out. It's just funny because sometimes when you're looking at it into real estate investing, you think that there's all these special things you need to do. It's just you do the same things again and again.

Starting point is 00:08:43 you're a good person, you take care of issues when they occur. And most of the times, over time, the investment's going to work out just fine. I love your approach to this because I feel kind of the same way. I'm just like, don't overthink this. Like just be a good hearing being underwrite deals. It's going to work out. Be patient. I think patience is, yeah, another big one that some people have a challenge with.

Starting point is 00:09:05 But hopefully listening to this podcast, preaching to you. Real estate's a long game. Just be patient. It's going to work out. All right, we do have to take a quick break, but we'll be back with Mike right after this. What if I told you you could forget everything you know about investment property loans? Because host financial is rewriting the rulebook, tossing out those pesky DTI restrictions. They focus on your property's income potential.

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Starting point is 00:12:33 Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Bigger Pockets podcast. I'm here with investor Mike Johnson. All right. So that was your first deal. What came next for you? Actually, I closed on the next house hack in Chicago and north side of the city. This was my FHA loan that I used, so three and a half percent down. It was a $750,000 four unit brick building, which is great. Oh, wow. I got a 2.75% rate on this building. And the cash I invested who acquired the building was only 27,000. Oh, okay. Because I was about to say that you really must have gone up in, in, in

Starting point is 00:13:08 pocket expenses because you paid $19,000 out of pocket for the first one. Yeah. You know, if you put 25% down on a $750,000, you know, you're talking something closer to $200 grand. How did you pull that one off? Yeah. So this one, you know, inherently with the 3.5% down, you're not putting a lot of cash into the deal for a $750,000 four unit.

Starting point is 00:13:30 But, you know, I always try to maximize seller credits. So maybe they're willing to do the repairs beforehand. Sure. You're capped out. I believe for a two to four units. the 3% of the purchase price is how much seller credit you can do. So I always try to advise that, try to maximize that that can bring your cash to close as low as possible. And that helps push up your return metrics. So I always try to do that. I don't know if this is common in

Starting point is 00:13:52 every state, but here in Illinois, we pay taxes and arrears for property tax. So if I close six months into the year, you get six months of the prorated tax amount at closing. So if you pay, you know, 20,000 in annual taxes, you're going to get $10,000 credit. And you don't actually feel that until you sell the building. So you get all the benefits of lower money down. Oh, that's awesome. Time value of money and getting a return on that money, all just because they haven't paid the current year's tax bill. And so you just address that. So that all those things combined, you know, and ended up me bringing only $27,000 to the table. And there's some very interesting stories with this building. And I had some rehabs I also did along the way. But yeah, all in all,

Starting point is 00:14:34 it's performing well, you to date. Is that one of the reasons you chose to invest in Chicago rather than Milwaukee? Or were you just living there? Why switch markets? So for me, it's comfortable with real estate investing at this point. I kind of got my feet wet in Milwaukee. I understand this. I've had some tenant interactions.

Starting point is 00:14:52 It's not the first time anymore. And so now, you know, I think for me, I don't like to do out-of-state investing. I like to do to my backyard, house hacking. Money is finite, right? So for me, I only have so much of it. So I want to maximize and extend my money. And even when I did the FHA loan, I always try to go to the maximum loan limit for the So the building that I have, the units are huge.

Starting point is 00:15:13 They're four bed, two bath, 1800s square feet. Cool. So a little bit harder to place tenants, but you can ration higher rents. And so for a four unit, you're maximizing the rental income, right? And a reason why I chose Chicago or just the Midwest in general is I was kind of use an analogy with the stock market. So you have the tech stocks. If you invest in Colorado, California, some of these may be sexier,

Starting point is 00:15:33 States appreciation-wise. I think of that as like a tech stock, right? You're going to get a lot of appreciation, but cash flow is hard. In the Midwest, I feel like it's a bit of both. It's like a dividend stock, a little bit of cash flow, maybe a lot, but it's Chicago. You're paying more for the property. But you get a mix. You get a little bit of appreciation. I've had cash flow in all my properties. And so I've had success here. And I live here. So if there's any issues, I have eyes on the property. I have all the contacts for, you know, maintenance, repairs. and it makes it a pretty seamless transition from one property to the next. What about tenants?

Starting point is 00:16:05 Have you had similar ability to retain tenants in the same way we did in Milwaukee? Interesting enough. So kind of ran into some issues at closing, and this was a hard lesson learned. But essentially for this building, I did my final walk through the day before closing, and the top floor tenants were all moving out, right? Does burial anything in the unit? The seller's agents there, again, I see them physically moving things out. I believe the best in people.

Starting point is 00:16:30 Good to go. They did the repairs. They said that we're going to do. Fast forward. I close the next day. I come back and the door is locked. Like, well, this is, this door shouldn't be locked. So I try to open it.

Starting point is 00:16:40 I see a piece of paper on the door. And it's a signed eviction moratorium. So during COVID, you couldn't evict. And long story short, it wasn't even one of the tenants that was on the lease. It was a guy that was paying them a few bucks a month to crash on their couch. He's who ended up squatting in the unit. And it took me nine months to go. through eviction court. I actually lost the case, by the way, did everything by the books. I lost

Starting point is 00:17:03 the case, professional tenant. And moral stories, he ended up vacating on his own accord, thank the Lord, but he completely vandalized the unit. He painted everything purple, hardwood floors, tiles, cabinets, appliances, broken windows, crazy vandalism. And at this point, I'm like, I'm just happy to give the unit back, but I haven't gotten the rental income for nine months. and now I see the whole unit's trash. And like I mentioned, this is an 1800 square foot four bed two bath unit. So it's not like a two one rehab. It's everything.

Starting point is 00:17:36 So that was a wonderful experience. It was covered by insurance. Oh, my God. Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I have a couple questions because I do think when people think about investing in real estate and get nervous about it, it's exactly this that people get nervous about. So can you just tell us a little bit like how this happened? Like did you interact with this person at any point and talk to them about what their intentions were or how did this whole unfortunate situation unfold?

Starting point is 00:18:07 Yeah. So I mean in retrospect, don't ever close unless you verify the tenants are out, right? That's a hard lesson learned. You know, in retrospect, is 2020. But once we got to the point where somebody's living in the unit, I don't know who it is. At this point, I eventually reach out to the. to the previous owner of the building. And I said, hey, like, do you have any idea?

Starting point is 00:18:27 Can you, like, reach out to the tenants and see who's maybe still staying there? Do you have any insights? And it was through actually the seller and the seller's agent where I found out that it was somebody that was paying the previous tenants to crash there, essentially. And so I found it his name. I got his contact information. And so I made contact. You know, and of course, you want to, you want to try to solve things without involving

Starting point is 00:18:48 attorney. So I tried, you know, offering him cash to move. I try to find him subsidized housing. I talked to people in Chicago and is there any place that we can help kind of relocate him. I even offered money to the previous tenants to see if I could pay them to have them move in with them for a few months. He wasn't interested, you know, in any of this. And that's when I kind of decided that I'm going to have to go the legal route. And so you were just going back and forth with him being like, what about this? What about this? And he was just like, no, I'm cool. I'm staying here.

Starting point is 00:19:15 Yeah. Like I even offered to say, hey, you can't afford to live here alone. It's a four-bedroom unit. But what can you afford? And so I even offered, I will place tenants in the other bedrooms so that you can stay there. You don't have to move. You can afford it. And then, you know, it's rented by the bedroom. I'm getting the full rental income. And I thought that was maybe a good solution. Just wasn't interested. He kind of, he led me along to make it seem like he was thinking about it. But, you know, I found out at the end of the day, this isn't the first time this guy's done this. It's funny how they can afford a really good attorney, but they can't, They can't afford any of the rent.

Starting point is 00:19:49 From what I'm hearing, you were clearly sort of the victim in a situation. How did you lose that case? So accepting money was the first mistake. He said, hey, I can afford to pay you partially right now. I accepted the partial payment. But the moment you accept money from him, it's no longer a squatter. He's a paid tenant, right, regardless of if they're paid in full or not. Essentially, I did everything with serving him the notice, given the court date, et cetera,

Starting point is 00:20:13 correct, did everything correctly. The reason why I lost the case is because he had a good attorney. that brought up case law. That is rough. Eventually, in my mind, I'm like, well, this is vandalism. It's not really covered under my policy. But since it was so bad, obviously, it was more than just wear and tear. So they ended up covering the entire rehab, which was around $55,000. Now the unit, I pretty much replaced everything. So now I'm getting $750 more a month in rent. I get better tenants because it's completely rehab. And those tenants have been there for two years now. And so it was a crazy experience. It worked out in the end. But not knowing if it was going to work out

Starting point is 00:20:47 that was probably one of the most stressful times in my life, to be honest. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. That's crazy. Well, I'm glad it worked out long term. You know, I always ask people this because inevitably, every real estate investor has, maybe not to this extreme, but a story where they lost money, something unfortunate happened. It was a pain in the butt. And oftentimes it happens earlier in your career because you're still learning like this.

Starting point is 00:21:13 So were you ever considering giving up or sort of thrown in the towel? It crossed my mind because once I lost the eviction case, that's where it kind of started us thinking that this could be another nine months. And with COVID, nobody really knew at this point what it was and how long it was going to last, how infectious things were. And so in my mind, I'm like, if this drags in another nine months, I mean, I'm paying out of the pocket for stuff, you know, but retrospect, it's my most profitable building now at this point, you know, where the PITI, I think, is 5300 a month and it's bringing in 9150 a month. Oh my God, 9150.

Starting point is 00:21:45 Very nice spreads. Okay, that's awesome. And I rehabbed one other unit where I put $50,000 into a unit. So one year I didn't buy a property. And so I, you know, nothing penciled out. So I spent $50,000 on a rehab for one of the units. But now I have all newly rehab units, slow repairs, great tenants. And the spread is really nice.

Starting point is 00:22:05 Okay. Wow. Well, you mentioned at the beginning of the episode that you had four deals. We've talked about two at Duplex in Milwaukee. and next we talked about your fourplex in Chicago. We do have to take a quick break, but I want to hear about what you've been up to more recently right after this. People love to call real estate passive income,

Starting point is 00:22:26 which is interesting because most of the investors I know are very busy. Busy finding deals, busy managing teams, busy worrying they pick the wrong market. Rent to retirement flips that model. They help investors buy turnkey new construction homes, often 10% below market value in top rental markets across. the country. Their local teams handle the build, the property management, and the details, so you don't have to. In some cases, investors even receive 50 to 75% of their down payment back

Starting point is 00:22:54 at closing, and there are interest rates as low as 3.75%. They've been trusted partners with BiggerPockets for over a decade, and if you want to learn more, visit BiggerPockets.com slash retirement. For decades, real estate has been a cornerstone of the world's largest portfolios, but it's also historically been sort of complex, time-consuming, and expensive. But a Imagine if real estate investing was suddenly easy, all the benefits of owning real, tangible assets without the complexity and expense. That's the power of the Fundrise flagship fund. Now you can invest in a $1.1 billion portfolio of real estate, starting with as little as $10. The portfolio features 4,700 single-family rental homes spread across the booming sunbelt.

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Starting point is 00:25:59 That's Indeed.com slash rookie. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Bigger Pocket. podcast. I'm here with investor Mike Johnson talking about his portfolio between Milwaukee and Chicago. We've talked about two of the deals so far. But the third one, what did you do after that four unit with the unfortunate squatter situation? So at this point, you know, I had the bug and,

Starting point is 00:26:32 you know, I'm into real estate investing and want a house hack again. I'm starting to look at different neighborhoods. And so I end up landing on a three-unit property in a west side neighborhood of Chicago. So this one wasn't a brick building, but ultimately ended up doing a 10% down loan owner occupancy. I moved into the top floor unit and I got a 3.87% rate. So rates are starting to go up at this point, right? Still competitive market. And for this deal, I ended up putting about $51,000 into this deal. Okay. So by far the most, you know, I've put into a deal at this point. But, you know, I better understand underwriting kind of the little tricks you can do to minimize cash to close. And so that was deal number three. Nice. Okay. And how's it

Starting point is 00:27:08 worked out? Hopefully no squatters. No squatters. But I will tell you there's been, there's been tenant issues. Oh, gosh. I had a litigial. tenant, fake some injuries. Whoa. It was making threats. And so at that point, I said, I am not well equipped and suited for this. I don't want to make any errors. And so I just decided to hire a property management company that is well known in the

Starting point is 00:27:28 Chicagoland area. Him and his team has done a great job. And they have attorneys. They have people that are going to do things the correct way and document things. And so ever since they took over, the relationship is good, right? There's no issues. But I think they see a private landlord and they think that they kind of take advantage of the situation. And I was living in the unit, right? So they could gain access to me at any point

Starting point is 00:27:49 they see me. And so one thing that, yeah, I just wanted to do was to separate myself from the tenants. I don't want to interact and I don't want to say or do anything incorrectly that's going to affect me in the court of law in Chicago. And so I can still self-manage. The other properties, they can have good tenants, very low vacancy. And so it doesn't really require much work in my part, but very happy that I offloaded this one property. So the reason, And the reason yourself managing the other ones, though, is because you're not living there. And it's just like you have sort of that, like, physical separation from tenants that makes you better able to manage. Right. I'm not quite ready to forego the 7, 8% of gross income. And I've also, I used to do all the showings myself, but now I use an agent. So I don't pay property management, but I will pay an agent to do the showings for me. So my portfolio is honestly very, very hands off, a couple hours a month maybe, you know, but I have contractors that I trust, plumbers, maintenance people. So that search is over, right? In the beginning, you're trying to find like a reliable person and that's stressful. But now that I have a team, it's very low stress.

Starting point is 00:28:56 You know, and so I'm willing to pay a little bit more the cash flow. And so I'm happy to pay the price to be hands off and focus my attention elsewhere. That's great. I mean, I just want everyone to hear how this just methodical approach Mike is taking can build a portfolio that's super exciting. Like, I mean no offense by this, Mike, but you're not doing anything super flashy. You know, it's like you bought a duplex. You placed great tenants. You have no vacancy. You bought a fourplex. You bought a fourplex. You dealt. You dealt. with a lot of the headache. Now you're generating amazing cash flow. You had another one where you learn to adapt and rather than dealing it with yourself, you're sort of offloading the stuff you don't want to do. And now that's going to cash flow. And this is over the course of what, three or four years at this point? Yeah, I mean, in less than four years I acquired, I think it's valued at $3.4 million in properties. And yeah, I think it was in three years in like nine months. So it's not like this took me a long time to do. And to your point, it's rinse and repeat the same

Starting point is 00:29:54 house hacking method. And as you gain experience, you know, and rates go up, my most recent deals a few months ago and I had a 6.5% rate. Yeah. But I still was able to close in an A-class neighborhood. And so it's just kind of funny following the investment journey, right? You know, it's like, okay, COVID interest rates, everything, pencils. And then as rates go up, it's, I've still managed to make things work. And I haven't done anything to your point, really outside the box. I just want to point out to everyone that these types of deals that Mike's doing do still work today. Like the numbers might be a little different. I don't know if you're going to make the same exact level of cash flow. But if you're trying to inherently just improve your financial position,

Starting point is 00:30:32 these types of house hacking strategies where you move from one to the other, this is just a time tested thing that works in pretty much every type of investment environment. Just a couple weeks ago on the show, we were talking to an investor who started doing this in 2005 and did it through the 2010s during a totally different type of environment. This is just one of those. types of approaches to real estate investing that works no matter where you're coming from. So just want to encourage people, even if you're thinking, hey, yeah, these were low interest rate environments, that this is still something that's possible. And it sounds like, Mike, you can tell us about how it's still possible with a deal you recently did within the last year or so.

Starting point is 00:31:11 Yeah, within a few months ago. So it closed on this one in August of 2024. This deal was a little bit different. This was a $1.5 million four unit brick building, three units in the front with a brick coach house in the back. But it's in Wicker Park, which if you know anything about Chicago, this is a very nice neighborhood. So it's an A-class neighborhood, very nice buildings, very walkable. And I used the new Fannie Freddie 5% down loan. So very highly levered, but conventional loan. And so I got a 6.5% rate. But this one I had to get very creative because I only ended up putting $38,000 into this $1.5 million building, which is kind of crazy when you think about that. That's less than I put in a building that I paid.

Starting point is 00:31:52 $694, which was the three unit. Wow. So for this one, again, with 5% down, of course, you know, you have that. Again, maximize seller credits. So 3% on about $1.5 is around $43,000 in seller credits I got. On top of that, I think this is another popular real estate strategy that people use. But I always close in the first or second of the month. Oh, I love this, yes.

Starting point is 00:32:14 Because this building brings in almost $13,000 a month in income. So if you have two months without a payment, you have a $26,000 cushion for future. repairs, anything that maybe you need to do, and it's lower cash to close. And just the last thing was the tax proration, right? Expensive building, pay a lot of taxes, closed the middle of the year. So I got all that tax credit as well that lowered my cash to close, which I only had to bring, I think, $12,000, I think, the closing table, but my all-in with earnest money was, was 38 on this building. Wow. Unbelievable. That's super cool. I just wanted to explain the thing you said about doing the closing on the first or second of the month, because this is just such an easy

Starting point is 00:32:52 way to build a cash reserve and lower your expenses. But basically, when you take out a traditional mortgage, let's say you close on May 1st. You're not going to pay for May. You're also not going to pay for June. Your first payment will be due July 1st. And that might not sound like a lot, but like Mike said, if he's generating 13 grand a month in May and June, that's $26,000 he has without his biggest expense. You're still going to have other expenses. You're still going to have other expenses, you're going to probably still have financing. And depending on the state of the building, you might have some turnover costs or upgrades that you want to make. But you're basically taking that profit that you're just sending to the bank and never going to see again. And you're pushing

Starting point is 00:33:35 it off for two months. And of course, you're still going to have to pay that money back. That's how a loan works. But just the mechanics of running a business, this is a really fortunate way to do it. So anytime you have the option or some flexibility about when to close on a property, just do it as earliest in the month that you can. First is great. Second is good. Even the first week, you're really going to give yourself a big benefit there. Obviously, when you close, it's the same amount of capital, but you won't need to, for example, set as much aside for a cash reserve. And the tenants here are, you know, people that are like working professionals, good jobs, high income, and just no issues, right? I mean, so the tenant pool is great. I love it. You deserve it, man. After two rough

Starting point is 00:34:17 ones with tenant situations that weren't really of your own making. Good to hear that you got a relatively calm one. But it sounds like, honestly, this kind of deal, you did a lot of creative stuff and kudos to you for doing your research. You learn the tricks. You learn some of the little hustles that you could do on each deal to sort of reduce the amount of money that you're putting into it. But realistically, like, this kind of deal, you know, people could do this deal, right? Like this is, this I think serves as a model for people listening of a great deal that you could execute on today. 100%. And there's two good things too. So with an FHA, you have the self-sufficiency test, which makes it really hard sometimes to have enough rental income to pass that test and even do an FHA loan. The nice thing about this 5% down Fannie Freddie loan is it's double the rate limit. So you can buy twice as expensive of a property. And there's no self-sufficiency test.

Starting point is 00:35:08 So all of a sudden, you can afford to buying these A-class neighborhoods like where I'm in, whereas an FHA loan would never pass here because the buildings are just too expensive. So it actually opened up the neighborhoods that I was coming to because I think a lot of people don't want a house hack and they're like, I don't want to live in that neighborhood, which is very, it's valid, right? It's personal preference. But this new Fannie Freddie 5% down loan, it gets you into the A-class neighborhoods in most cities, right? And so, yeah, I was able to capitalize on that pretty much right as that loan package came out.

Starting point is 00:35:36 So maybe not as common knowledge and there wasn't as many people utilizing it yet. But it's a great option. That's a great tip. Yeah, I didn't even realize that about that they don't have the self-sufficiency test. That's a really cool tip. Yeah, it's really nice. Awesome. So what's next for you, Mike?

Starting point is 00:35:49 It seems like you're sort of doing this like methodically or you're just going to keep trying to do these kind of small multifamilies every year, every two years. So the thing about me maximizing my leverage on these properties is my DTI is pretty capped out right now. Yeah. So I may need to cool it for a year or so. So one of two things. I think I may do like the live and flip strategy where I buy like a condo kind of buy the lake in

Starting point is 00:36:11 Chicago and then, you know, I live there two to the five years, do a rehab. And then, you know, you can sell that within five and not pay taxes on it. So still kind of use the tax advantage method of real estate that I'm familiar with or look into maybe just renting, you know, because this unit that I'm in rents for more than what I'd be willing to live in myself. This is a three bed, two bath. So I'm by myself. Yeah. So I'll probably like move into a smaller unit, rent this out. and then I could maybe get into like a five plus multifamily and kind of start maybe scaling up a little bit, doing some larger deals. Awesome, man.

Starting point is 00:36:43 Well, congratulations. And just want to reiterate, this is the example I always give where people say, like, is your primary residence and investment? Clearly, you've shown us, Mike, that yes, it can be. You've managed to acquire millions of dollars worth of real estate just by using your primary residence. And even going forward, I love your thinking because, yes, at some point, almost every investor's career, your debt to income ratio becomes a challenge. You have to cool off. And that's okay. It's totally fine. I've gone years without buying deals for sure. But also, Mike, thinking of good ways to do it too. Like, I love that you're flexible enough to think about

Starting point is 00:37:20 renting. I've also done that. When you do the math, sometimes it just makes sense to rent or do a live and flip. That's what I'm doing right now. It's just another good way to make money. All right. I think that's all we got for today. Mike, thanks so much for joining us. on all your success and for navigating some pretty tricky tenant situations. We appreciate you being here. Thanks for having me. This was fun. It really was. And Everett, remember, we are always looking for more investors like Mike to feature on the show. If you'd like to tell your real estate story to the BiggerPockets audience, you can apply at BiggerPockets.com slash guest. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next time. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast.

Starting point is 00:38:00 Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform, our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K, copywriting is by Calico content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing

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BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 13 Rental Units with a “Rinse and Repeat” Investing Method

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