BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 136: Building an Incredible Real Estate Pipeline with Shawn Holsapple

Episode Date: August 20, 2015

Having trouble finding good deals? You won’t after this inspiring episode of the BiggerPockets Podcast! Today we bring you an interview with Shawn Holsapple, a real estate investor who is dominating his market, having done over 300 transactions in just the past several years. You’ll learn how Shawn is finding consistent deals and opportunities to keep his deal pipeline flowing! In This Episode We Cover: How Shawn got started investing out of the country The certain book and seminar that spurred him to begin How to overcome analysis paralysis Where he gets his active income What wholesaling and “wholetailing” are How many deals he is doing What his team consists of and how he maximizes the use of a VA How to best take advantage of HUDs and the MLS Tips for knowing what to offer when making a deal How Shawn uses online auctions How to figure out the cost of a fix up Shawn’s take on getting a real estate license What you should know about building your portfolio Why Shawn believes you don’t necessarily need a cash buyer’s list A glimpse into how he manages his business And SO much more! Links from the Show Brandon’s Disney’s video (on his Facebook) BiggerPockets SubForums BiggerPockets Forums Upwork BiggerPockets Webinar Auction.com Hudson and Marshall BiggerPockets Keyword Alerts BiggerPockets #AskBP Books Mentioned in this Show Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert T. Kiyosaki The 4-Hour Workweek by Timothy Ferriss The Book on Flipping Houses by J. Scott The E-Myth Revisited by Michael E. Gerber The 10X Rule by Grant Cardone Tweetable Topics: “You flip for quick cash so that you can buy the buy and holds.” (Tweet This!) “If you can’t sell your deal, then you don’t have a deal.” (Tweet This!) “If you’re not falling down and getting hurt then you are not trying hard enough.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Shawn Shawn’s BiggerPockets Profile Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast, show 136. I got buyers lined up that will take it as is. I don't even have to go to the city. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others

who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorkin, host to the Bigger Pockets podcast, here with my co-host, Mr. Disneyland himself, Brandon Turner. What's up? What's up, man?

How was your trip? How was Disney? It was good. It was good. It were long lines, but it was well worth it. You know, we used the fast pass a lot. Nice. And, yeah, I spent the last week at Disneyland.

And I got like 24,000 steps was my highest on my Fitbit. So I rocked last week for steps. It was like the first time I've ever actually seen you coming even close to beating me on a trip bit. Yeah, I actually walked last week. So it was amazing. Yeah, it was good. It was good.

I went on Pirates of the Caribbean like five times. Did you try when that waterfall drop happens? There's a little bit of tears happen. Okay, guys, I want you to go on Facebook and Twitter. I think they're just on Facebook. Go on Facebook and find Brandon and look at his pictures. There are some really funny pictures. The best picture, the best, maybe I'll try to upload it to the show notes page.

The best one was, we did the Tower of Terror, which is that drop, right? You dropped like, your wife. My wife. Yeah, Heather is so funny. But even more funny than her is the girl behind us. Like, I don't know if you notice this girl behind us, like it looks like she's being murdered. And like her scream, and I did slow motion on my phone. It's so funny.

I'll try to upload it to the show notes page at BiggerPockets.com slash show 136. Check it out. Awesome. Do you ever notice how every passive investment, somehow turns into a very active lifestyle. Active spreadsheets, active phone calls, active stress. Here's a better question. What if you could buy brand new construction homes,

10% below market value, in the best markets across the country, without making real estate your second job? That's exactly what rent-to-retirement does. They're a full-service, turnkey investment company, handling everything for you. In some cases, investors get 50 to 75% of our down payment back at closing,

plus interest rates as low as 3.75% They've partnered with Bigger Pockets for over a decade, helping thousands invest smarter. If you want to do the same, visit BiggerPockets.com slash retirement to learn more. Did you know your house gets bored when you leave? I can't actually prove that, but it probably misses out on the action, the footsteps, the late-night fridge raids. Yeah, when you're gone, your place is basically on unpaid leave. It's sitting there in the dark thinking, I could be contributing right now. Your side room wants a side hustle.

Even your Wi-Fi is like, we could be networking. You're on vacation, spending money like it's a sport, while your staircase at home is fully capable of sending your income upwards. Here's the twist. You can go on a trip and actually earn money. Airbnb makes that possible with the co-host network. If you're away for a while or have a secondary property, you can hire a vetted local co-host with real hosting experience to handle it all.

A co-host can handle guest communications. It can manage reservations and keep things running smoothly so you don't have to check your phone between beach days. That means less stress and more time enjoying your trip. You can relax, knowing guests are taking care of and your place is in good hands. You travel, your house works. Everyone wins.

If you're ready to host but could use some help, find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. A lot of property managers think their job is answering tenant emails and coordinating repairs. That's not the job. The job of a property manager is protecting and growing your operating income and earning your trust while they do it. And that comes down to three numbers, occupancy, delinquency, and net promoter score. If those numbers slip, your income slips and your trust slips too. And most PMs don't hold themselves to performance standards. They focus on activity, not outcomes. Mind is different. They obsess over the metrics that actually. actually grow your cash flow. Go to mine.co slash show me to see how mine performs and get a month of management for free. Because if you're going to hire a property manager, hire one that manages your investment like an investment. All right. So today we've got a really cool quick tip for

you. We're going to talk about a relatively new feature that we launched the end of last month, which are sub forums. So basically, we went and launched these forums for each state in the country. and then we've launched forums for each major metro in each state. So if you want to go and subscribe, you can now subscribe to the California Forum. You can subscribe to the Los Angeles Forum. You could subscribe to the Dallas Forum, the Des Moines Forum, whatever you want to do.

So you can go macro like state. You can really focus in and just do a city. Or I would personally recommend if you're in a city, I'd probably do the city and the state just to kind of see what kind of results start coming through. But definitely follow these forums, subscribe to your local city and state and other areas that you're interested in.

And, you know, we've got the keyword alerts already, but just having the state forums, I think it gives people more of this, you know, communal vibe where they can just say, oh, you know, I'm only going to connect with these people or people interested in this area. So jump in there, check out the subforums.

You can really, you can find them on their local networking forum, or if you go to the Bigger Pockets forum category, by BiggerPockets.com slash forums slash categories. You can find it. We'll link to it in the show notes and check it out. Get networking. Cool.

Cool. I like it. That's going to be really helpful. So I'm excited to be engaging in the Seattle and the Tacoma subforums. Yeah, for sure. For sure. All right. Cool.

Let's move on to, I want to read a rating and review from iTunes this week because I really like this one a lot. Awesome. Mainly because it started with Addicted from A. Lecier. I'm saying that last name right. I just joined the Bigger Pockets community a couple weeks ago and I've been listening to three hours of podcasts daily ever since. Yes.

Woohoo. Can't get enough of the excellent anecdotal information and insightful tips. So love that. Thank you so much, A. Lessewer for that five-star review in iTunes. So cool. Thank you. Yeah.

And if you guys are listening, please jump on iTunes and leave us a rating review. You can also leave us ratings and reviews on Stitcher and SoundCloud. You know, please get in there, help us out, help us get more visibility for the show. And subscribe. By doing that. And definitely subscribe. If you're not subscribing, you're missing out. You're missing out.

There you go. So, all right, let's get this thing going. Today's show is with Sean Holesappell. Hopefully I didn't butcher it too bad. That's right. Sean is a real estate investor focused on the Indianapolis, Indiana, real estate area. One of my favorite places on planet Earth. That would be the place where the guy threw a can of soda at me as I was stalled on the side of I-80 on the highway.

traveling to St. Louis for college one year in the middle of summer. Yeah, it was awful and not pleasant, not pleasant. But Sean hopefully was not that guy. Hopefully not. Hopefully not. So Sean is an active real estate wholesaler. He's busy doing lots and lots of deals. He does well over 100 transactions a year, you know, built kind of a cool business model. So, you know, pay attention, listen up and let's bring him on. Sean, welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you here. Good. Good. I've been here finally.

I've been waiting for a long time. Oh, okay. Us too. Yeah. Yeah. Forever. We sent you all these messages and you kept saying, you know, I'm too busy. I'm too busy.

Finally, here we are. Finally, here we are. Yeah. So today we're going to talk about a little bit of Monday. A bunch of stuff. Today is Monday. Today is about finding deals. I know I want to cover that because I hear you're one of the best at finding deals.

So that's the reputation. any way that you have. So I think we'll cover that today. He is in the Rust Belt, though. So, you know, let's just keep that in mind. Southern Rust Belt. Where are you from? Where are you at? I'm in Indianapolis, Indiana right now. I'm from Mitchell originally, which is a small farming community, the Lower South.

Okay. It's in the rural areas. Yeah. Notice, you know, picking on you. Yeah, yeah, make fun of me. All, Sean, let's talk about this. My notes, you know, We tried to switch this format up, and we have very limited notes so that we kind of come at you guys with fresher questions, hopefully. The bio I have is you lived out of the country before moving back to Indiana, and you started investing out of the country. Am I correct on that?

Is that how you got going? Yes, spent five years in Calgary, Alberta. Okay. And I got back to Indiana late 2010. Okay. So tell us about investing in the U.S. from Canada. What was that like? How did you get started?

So I picked up Rich Dad, of course, for the second time in late 2008 and picked up again and realized I've got to really do something with my life. I've been working 30-plus years with nothing to show for it, basically. And so happened. There was a three-day Rich Dead event there in Calgary, that same, run that same timeframe. So I went to that, my wife, actually drugged my wife. You drugged her? I mean. No, dragged.

Like Bill Cosby style. Yeah. No, not that kind of drugging. Okay. As I by the back of the hair and this kind of drug. And so finally got her there. And halfway through the second day, for her, it hit. The light ball went off.

She's like, okay, now I get while you're looking at houses all the time. Because up to that point is like, we can't even afford one while you're looking at more. Yeah. The usual stuff. So I went to that. Really opened my eyes on what to do or all the strategies. And one of those was getting creative with your. credit cards.

So while I was in Calgary, it's like West Coast U.S. there's just, you know, everything's very, very expensive. A shack there is 450 to 500, you know, and you can't touch a duplex less than six to 650 that rants for 1,200 aside, so there's no cash flow. So I was looking back home, looking at some smaller towns first, and we're seeing seeing duplexes in the 50, 60, 80,000 range. then I happened to come across one in Indy that was, you know, there were 30 and 40,

so that kind of got me looking at Indy because up at that point I figured at the larger city it would cost more. So I wouldn't even looking here. And one thing led to another and ended up looking at a little single family here in Indy. Of course, now this is two years later,

which I always kicked myself for waiting so long to do anything. I was making offers, but really conservative kind of scared to make too many offers always thinking, what if they say yes, that kind of stuff. And so there was one, what is on a, from another wholesaler. And I was on a list by then, of course, and came across. It was listed, I think, at 10, 5, which was rough, you know, to say the least.

But anyway, I offered 95 just to throw an offer. And they said, yes. And it scared of crap at them. I mean, now what, you know? So I was still in Canada, of course. and it was here in Indies, so I did everything remotely. The way I purchased it was I got a, had a line of credit at that point, a signature line of credit, a small one. And that was my first purchase, was just a line of credit, and then I bought it and got a property manager involved.

He said, yes, not too bad, so got it fixed up. Started renting it out at $5.50, and that was the very first one. Six months later, threw it on some website for sale. Someone in California bought it for $18,000, and I was like, wow, that was kind of, neat. Wow. Wow. Okay. That's pretty good, man. So you bought this. Was the original intent to buy and hold or was it to turn it like you did? Yes, hold was the original go. Even during that a three-day weekend event, he said for, you know, it should be you flip for quick cash to build up your, you know, so you can buy the buy and holds. Because if you don't, you're running out

my cash pretty quick. And I didn't want to flip at that point. So I thought, well, I'll skip that stage and just go right to the buy and hodes. Well, after two, I was broke and I was making a whopping $2.50 a month or something, you know, so that, so that wasn't going to work. So I had to get into something else besides that. But yes, that was the original plan was to have these rentals for passive income. Right on. Nice. Cool. So, all right, so I want to jump in here because you mentioned you took you a couple years to make your first offer. And a lot of people listen to the show right now are probably in that same spot. Two years ago, a year ago, three years ago, 10 years ago, they decided they want to get in real estate and they still haven't done it yet.

So, I mean, do you have any good tips for them on like how do you overcome that, whether it's fear or analysis, paralysis or whatever it is? Like, what do you tell people today to, you know, get over that hump? I just tell them to get off the fence because I was really a bad thing. about looking at, well, one thing when I went to that three-day event, there was about 35 different strategies that he talked about, which completely just, you know, melded in my brain and I had no idea. So I was so caught up in all these different ways to do something, then getting the spreadsheets out and looking and looking and throwing in numbers and saying what if. And, you know, now looking back, I should just bought it, you know, especially at that

price. Here, you know, in our area, it's easy to pick up. something less than a used car. So I tell people it's less than a used car. Even if you lose it all, it's still less than a guru, you know, big $40,000 training camp. Yep. And which you won't lose at all. So I tell them just to buy a little $15, $20,000 beater, go through a simple rehab with the pain of the contractors and, and, you know, which is a huge deal, which I think it is everywhere. And just get that into your belt and you'll learn so much. And, Just don't, you know, don't be so scared. When I go to meetings here and networking events, I see the same people month after month, year after year.

And I talk to them, I'm like, we're still looking or we're thinking about maybe in six months, doing that some banit signs or that yellow letter thing. I'm like, what do you mean in six months? You should do it yesterday. Yeah. You know, and I like that. I like the, you know, you can't really apply that in every market. So if you're in, if you're in, if you're in,

Algari. Obviously, where a duplex is 600K, you have to be a little more careful. But, you know, I guess in an area where you can pick up properties for so cheap, I guess it kind of becomes a little easier and your risk is obviously a lot less on a per property basis. I mean, what's the most you can lose is the 10K you got in the property and hopefully, you know, you haven't screwed too much up and you have insurance to make sure, you know, you don't get sued and so on and so forth. But yeah, that's, I mean, I like that. You know, get a lot. You know, get a lot. get off the fence, stop sitting around, and, you know, when you can't screw up as much, you know, it should be, it should be easier, I guess, right?

Definitely. Yeah. Now, what exactly is your main strategy today then? I mean, you bought that first rental. Are you flipping wholesaling? What do you do? Do a lot of wholesale, but it's not the typical assignment. I do the hoteling, I guess you call it, or we're actually buying clothes.

Okay. And then turn around and offered out to my buyer's list. That's my active income. That's my J-O-B. Okay. So let's take that back a little bit. For people who have no idea what that means, they've never heard a wholesaling before,

I mean, maybe can you kind of just give us a big, big picture of what the entire process means? Well, what is wholesaling? And what is wholesaling? Sure. Just kind of clarify those. So a typical wholesale would be you find a property

either through bandit signs, direct mail, friends, whatever. And then you get that property under contract. and then you would assign it to someone that's going to buy it so you're actually going to assign that contract to someone like me it's going to buy and then we close. Versus hoteling is, I don't worry about getting under, I still get under contract, but I actually am going to close

versus wholesaling, you can still walk away. If you don't ever find a buyer, you can just walk away. There's usually no earnest money involved versus what I do. There is earnest money. It's, you know, I always close. say I'm going to buy it, I'll buy it no matter what, just to keep my name out there as someone that will close. And then once I close, I usually have 20, 30 days before closing because I do a lot of HUDs and step off the MLS, which we can talk about in a minute. And so that gives me time

to do the marketing. And I try to have it sold before I close on it, then I'll do a double closing. That's awesome. So how long do you typically own the properties for then? anywhere from, you know, just a few hours for double closing out to, you know, 30 days max usually. Okay. Okay. And are you always selling them to cash buyers or are you selling them to retail buyers ever? Like just, you know, homeowners? For the most part, it's other investors, cash buyers. Once in a while, you know, a owner occupant will see my ad on Craigslist or wherever and they'll want to buy it. And sometimes they have cash or they or have financing lined up where it's a fit and I'll do that. So why do that? You know, why you sell to a cash buyer when you can potentially sell to a retail buyer, presumably for more money? Is it, you know, you don't want to pay the commission to the agent? Would that make the difference in the sale price? Do you think you'll sell it quicker for cash? Why sell to an investor where presumably you're selling it somewhat of a discount to what you could get retail?

Sure. I could probably go through the pains of getting it up to retail value and ready for the market. And that could be 30 days worth of rehab plus another 30 to 9 days on the market to make 5 to 10,000 more, maybe 15,000 more versus selling it right now at a smaller profit. But it's all about volume for me. I'd rather take a quick nickel right now versus a slow dime in the future. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. That's great. So how many deals are you doing? I mean, you obviously got a volume business. What do you do in a typical year now? I did 155 closings last year. That's it. That's all.

I'm a little disappointed, Sean. I mean, I was thinking you were in the big boy club doing maybe like, you know, 175. Now, that's closing. So, you know, that could be the same property twice. when you buy the chest. But still, you know, 70 to 5 to 100 actual separate properties. Out of that, I'll cherry pick a few to keep from my own portfolio. Nice. And the rest, I just, so. So I'm going to jump in. I'm taking this one. I got this. You probably have the same question.

Okay. Is the business just you? Are you the only one? Or do you have somebody else helping you out? Well, the most part, it's me. I have my wife involved. She spends three to four hours every day doing some HUD offers and just taking care of all the paperwork that I tend to generate, which is a lot sometimes. I got a VA works 10 to 15 hours per week,

which helps out on tracking some stuff and some offers. VA means what? Virtual assistant. Perfect. She's a college grad from the Philippines at three bucks an hour. Yeah, there you go.

There you go. The economies of scale. Yes. I used to always think that was for a CEO or some big expensive organization. And when I finally got around to doing or getting a VA involved, it was super easy and very, very helpful. Yeah. How did you find that VA?

That was through Odesk, which I think they've changed their name now, but you can still look up Odesk. Yeah, upwork, it's called now. Yes, right. Upwork. And the way that works is they get a commission of, I think, 11% on every hour. So the three bucks, you're actually spending $3.33 per hour. and Odestkets.

It's kind of tough, but I try to pay it for it. Some weeks are about $16, and it's a little hard to give up that coffee. So what is the VAD? Hold on, and we joke here, but I mean, I think it's an important thing because some people might be listening being like, you know, Sean's a jerk, you know, he's ripping this person off. That $3 an hour to this girl in the Philippines that you're paying, she's probably pretty happy with that amount of money. Yes, because from what I'm telling, in average, for a day wage, there's about five bucks

all day, and she's making three bucks an hour. And holidays, you know, I'll throw her, you know, $20 bonus, which is huge to her. It would be like us getting a 40% raise one week as a bonus. You just got to put it, you know, just add the extra zeros there. And then it kind of hits home, like, you know, what they're actually making. Yeah. I love the idea. I mean, I read this first, the whole concept back in the four-hour work week of hiring a VA.

And, you know, I've hired several since then. In fact, we've been working with a guy named Dave in the Philippines. Dave is one of my favorite people in the world. He actually edits these podcasts. So Dave, what's up, man? Dave's the man, right? And Dave lives in the Philippines. And Dave is making a lot more than three bucks an hour.

Dave is. Because we like him so much. Like, we really like him. I mean, he does awesome work. And so, like, yeah, I love the idea of hiring, you know, outsourcing the little things. Even this is the point they made in four-hour work week, which I don't think people talk about enough, but just the idea of hiring somebody, even if they don't make you money, the learning how to manage an employee, if you're not good at that, that alone was worth the, I mean, worth the cost for me when I started,

like, hiring people because I had no idea what I was doing. And I'm not going to go hire a $30 an hour American to learn how to be a manager. You know, you can start a lot cheaper that way. So what are they doing for you? And what is this VA actually doing for you in your business? The biggest thing is every day I have the HUD home store forwarded her all the new listings in our area. And then she puts those on a shared, a Google Doc that we all share. And then I go in and put the offer price of what I think that property is worth.

Then my wife comes in the afternoon and she puts the offer in. That's her main thing. I have her do other little spreadsheet things, odds and ends. She made my Facebook page for my company. she charged me $2.20. I give her five. I could have stopped and took the hour to do it, but that hour I could be doing a deal that makes thousands versus $2.

That's why I look at everything now. That's great. So, I mean, it sounds like you're starting to rely on her to really run back end for you. Are there other things that you think that you could probably pony off and haven't yet done and you're just kind of working it little by little? Probably. When I first started, the first two failed miserably because I had too much on their plate all at once,

which I found out after reading the 4-a-workly, you're supposed to start slow and work them up. And so since then I've did that. But yeah, she could be making HUD offers maybe or some other, you know, I could have her doing some follow-up with marketing, but I don't do a whole lot of marketing anymore. But yeah, there's all kinds of stuff you could have someone do. Right on.

Right on. So you don't do marketing and you're a whole, well, your hothelor, not a wholesaler. But like a lot of people would say, well, to be a wholesale, you've got, I mean, you've got to constantly be marketing. You're getting, it sounds like the bulk of your deals on MLS and HUD, right, HUD Home Store. Right. Okay. At the online auctions too. Okay, cool. So let's talk about HUD. You know, what's the upside? What's the downside of HUD? HUD is, the website is, it's online, it's, it's real easy to make an offer. Once you get it automated, which I've got, I can do an offer in 45 seconds, and it just,

you just plow through it. And the downside is, once they say yes, you have, you've got 24 hours to get them, the documents. It's actually 48 to the end, but you have to get it mailed in 24 hours. So you got to stop what you're doing, print the 20 plus pages, sign it in blue ink. you know, everything. Yes. And very difficult. They're really, they have a lot of little quirks that has to be done.

But in the end, you still get a good property. Yeah. And so that's, and then like other markets, you know, a lot of people say you can buy HUD at 88% or 82%. I mean, I bought stuff at 15% or 20% before. Wow. So I actually make an offer on everything and the central part of the state. These are retail properties, right?

these are foreclosed properties. And some are nice and some are ugly and some are hideous. But you have to offer accordingly. And I just offer on everything. If it's something I'm not sure about and it looks like in a rough area, I'll usually offer like 20 or 30% of the list. And sometimes they still say yes. And you're not shying away from rough areas then it sounds like.

So you'll buy anything anywhere as long as you can get a discount. Absolutely. Right on. What's the max that you would pay on a property? I mean, as far as a discount, do you not have one? Yeah, I mean, once in a while, we'll have one on the nice side of town that it's, you know, 600,000 and it's worth a million. You know, I'll still offer on that. Yeah.

That's cool. I mean, so let me ask you this. Do you know, do you happen to know about what your ratio is of like how many offers you make versus the ones that get accepted? I don't know if you track that, but you just have a guess on what that would be? it's low. I mean, we, we, we tend to offer whatever it is available. Right now there's about 65 in our area on HUD at least, and we offer on every one of those. And we'll close one or two a month. So you offer on 65 properties closed on one or two. Next month, you'll probably offer another 65 close on one or two. Right. I've been stressing this thing a lot lately on the bigger pockets webinars that I do every week. And I think I mentioned it last week or the week before here on the podcast. the idea that people complain a lot, like, I just can't find any deals. And what I always say to them now with like my new line is, okay, how many offers did you make this week?

And the answer is always, uh, none. Well, how many deals did you analyze this week? Uh, none. You know, so I'm like, in a way, like, how are you ever going to get an offer accepted if you don't make the offer in the first place? How are you going to make the offer if you don't analyze the deal? How are you going to analyze the deal if you don't find the deal across your desk? Like, just work backwards and then start working forwards from that, from that point. Just start throwing out, you know, like, yeah, I mean, exactly what you're doing.

It's kind of a largely a numbers game, and you seem to figure that out. Right. And I'll have people come to me, want to me to make offers for them because I'm a broker, and they'll have one property. You'll make one offer, and they'll wait. I mean, you've got to make 10 or 15 or 20, especially now. We're in a seller's market. I have been for about a year, and inventory is very tight.

It's very competitive here, and you have to really be on it. So you have to make multiple offers just to hope to get one. It's halfway close. Yeah. I mean, you're basically building this pipeline of deals that consistently are coming in. I mean, would that be a right way to describe that? Yeah. And there's sometimes, you know, there's been times where I'll get five or six, you know, on the same day accepted.

And I'm like, holy crap. And the first, you know, first few times that happened, it was a little scary. But now I know I can do something with it. You know, I've got enough private money to work with that they're always happy to do whatever. And so we just go. Nice. So basically, you've built this business where, you know, you can deal with the things that you can't plan for, right? I mean, you can't plan to get, you're not planning to have six offers, get accepted in a day.

But if they do, you know, you got the private buyers, you got money, you got whatever you have. You've got a lot of different exits that you can potentially take. So actually knowing and understanding what the possibilities are for somebody who's listening, who's new, is going to really, help you out when you come into these situations. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. People love to call real estate passive income, which is interesting because most of the investors I know are very busy. Busy finding deals, busy managing teams, busy worrying they pick the wrong market. Rent to retirement flips that model. They help investors buy turnkey new construction homes, often 10% below market value in top rental markets across the country. Their local teams handle the

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are you buying just REOs or are you buying, you know, market price properties as well? Probably 80% are REOs, but there's still that, those few people that are motivated. I just bought one last week. She'd lived her for 30 years. It's in a kind of rougher part of town. She was in at the age that she needed to move into a home. So her family came in and they put it on the market, it was listed at 39. I offered 20 and they said yes. And we closed in a week. Everybody's happy. So that happens on occasion. But for the most part, it's REOs. Okay. Right on. And obviously in the rest belt, there's opportunities like this. I mean, there's definitely a lot of, a lot more inexpensive properties available. Yes.

And by this year, I really quick to clarify, because this is where we all get caught up with me, is this cheap and then there's inexpensive, right? So inexpensive, meaning you can get a discount on what the value of the properties. They are also cheap. But, you know, and by cheap, I mean, you don't have to spend $150,000, $500,000 to buy a property. You can buy them for $20, $30, $50. But, you know, a lot of people, especially new people are like, oh, let me go buy, you know, this house because it's $10,000. dollars, maybe 10,000, but it might need 90,000 in repairs.

You know, cheap doesn't mean it's a good deal. Absolutely. You know, we have places here in town that I've actually got paid to take a house because they had some liens from the city or it was in the war zone. And they'll hear, you know, here's three grand, please take it. I don't want to deal with it anymore. Nice. And so that's a cheap house.

So what's the most you've ever been paid to, like, yeah, what's the most you've ever been paid to take a house over? That one was probably about three or four thousand on a really nasty house that had maybe 10,000 worth of city liens, but we can go to the city and ask them for help, and they'll usually knock it down. So that $10,000 lien might be $1,200. All right. So let's take that property.

I mean, I don't know if you remember it, but you got paid. I mean, like, that's crazy. Hey, I'm going to give you money to take this house. You got paid. there was, I'm assuming there were a bunch of liens on it. Was that $10,000 in liens on that one? Yes, it was a lot. It was actually over 10.

Actually, there's just, I just went recently that I'm working on that it's going to, you know, they're going to end up giving me close to $3,000 at closing. It's got over $10,000 worth of liens. I know we can go to the city and probably get that knocked down to $12 to $1,500. I got buyers lined up that will take it as is. I don't even have to go to the city. Okay. I'll sell it for $3,000 or $4,000.

So, you know, I can still make a few thousand. They're still buying it where they need to be. And they'll put the effort into going to the city, getting it fixed up. And then they'll get it to a rent-ready place. And they'll sell it, you know, as a turnkey, maybe for 30 or 40,000 that rents for $6.15. Everybody's happy. There you go. Yeah.

That's awesome. That's awesome. I have a question on that, you know, maybe going back a little bit. You mentioned making lots of offers like this, whether it's on the, the MLS, whether it's the HUD one or the auction, which we haven't really talked about yet, but we'll get to. Basically, I hear, how do you know how much to offer? I mean, like, is it just because you know your city inside and out?

I mean, this is a struggle a lot of people have. I want to go put a lot of offers in. I have no idea what's the offer. Like, how do you know that? If it's a rental, I've got a cheat sheet of a large turnkey provider in town. So he's told us the head of time. If it's $6.50 rent, I'll pay $33 all in, for example. Okay.

So I know he's the lowest, he's the cheapest person in town. That's spending it nicely, but he's, you know, if you'll pay that, I know, if I can get it to fit those numbers, then I can get to fit anybody's numbers. So he's, that's my, where I start. If I can hit his numbers, then I know. That's a great idea. It's good to go. So that's what I use for rental. If it's an area that I know really well, which is still where is, then I know, or we know what it's worth.

and so I can do that. If it's something for retail, I'll just do some quick comps and see what they're assigned for. I try to use the 65% rule, 65% of the actual ARV, which is after repair value minus the rehab, is where we try to be. And then I can still wholesale that because everybody around here is using 70 to 78% because it's so hard to find a deal. I can still wholesale that and still make a little bit of a spread there in the middle. Okay. I mean, do you have a minimum profit that you want to make on a deal? Like, do you say a thousand bucks is my minimum, or is it just, you know, as much as you can get?

For the most part, you know, it's when I first got started, I was happy just to make a few hundred bucks. Yep. And then, of course, with all the books I've read and I see how things are going. I shoot for 10,000. Okay. And I, you know, I easily settle for two or three. It was, you know, kind of 10x thing. Yeah.

Yeah, I was just going to say it's very much like the grand. Cardone 10x, like, yeah, increase your goals by 10 times. And then if you fall short, at least you're way further than you were to begin with. So, very cool. All right, well, let's go back to auctions. You know, we've talked about HUD store, talked about MLS. What do you mean by online auctions? What is that and how does that work?

So there's auction.com. There's Hudson and Marshall, which just emerged with Genesis. And there's a couple of others. But probably the biggest one I work with is auction.com. So they have listings. And it was nice about them. probably 60 to 70% of their auction properties aren't on the MLS for some reason, which doesn't make sense.

But anyway, the competition is a lot less. And so I can find those through the auction.com. When you first get started, they're going to charge you $2,500 per property to make an offer. Then if you don't win that property, they're going on, of course, give that back. Once you close 6 to 10. You said they do give them. Yes, they'll give it back to you if you don't win. Of course.

Once you have a few under your... your belt, then you can be part of the VIP program, and then they'll give you your own personal office in their office to help you head to get the pre-auction deals and send you out a list that fits your needs, and they'll help you. And what the biggest thing is, you don't have to do the $2,500 anymore. So it's zero. Interesting. So this like HUD, with the search is we register for everything in my area. And that could be 60 to 100 homes on auction.com, and I'll make offers on all of them and just, you know, I see what sticks. Yeah.

Nice. Cool. That's great. Yeah, that's awesome. So what percentage of those do you think you're? It's a bit higher. And I think I've closed about 45 this year with auction.com. Oh, wow.

Versus probably 15 or 20 last year. So I really picked up the pace with. And it's probably a 30, you know, between 30 and 40% closing. Are there fees or anything like that that you have to pay beyond the money that you put up? sometimes there's there's a fee it's between two and five percent of the selling price but for the most part you know I'd say 80 percent of these there is no fee which is nice yeah yeah that's great cool awesome say I should ask this question earlier and I know we're kind of jumping around but that's what

we do and we don't you know that's what conversations do so you mentioned earlier about when you're analyzing deals you know like looking at that other guy who's the cheapest in your area and that's kind of how you figure it out. But you need to know rehab costs in order to do that. Like you have to know about what it's going to cost to figure that. I mean, how do you know that? And how does a new person coming into real estate figure that kind of stuff out, how much is going to cost to fix up? Right. You can use a square footage number. But that comes with experience too. For me, it was just getting out there and doing a few rehabs.

So for rental, for example, I know what, you know, 10,000 will get me now or 15,000 or 20,000. So I can usually walk in or just see the picture. for the most part and NRA know it's going to take 10 or 12,000 to get this rent ready. Yep. Right on. Yeah. So it's, I mean, it kind of becomes this second nature, doesn't it? I mean, and I think a lot of people don't, especially the new folks, don't necessarily get it.

And by the way, we've got a great book. I'm sure you probably saw it or have checked it out, the Jay Scott's book, the ultimate. The book on, oh man. Yeah, the book on, I'm so used to ultimate. I know. Yes. the book on estimating rehab costs. But I think all this stuff, I mean, just like pricing a property, you know, what's this property worth? If you've gone and seen 100 properties of similar type,

you pretty much know what a property is worth. I mean, that's what agents do. That's what sophisticated investors do. It's the more you see, the more you do, the more you know, right? Absolutely. And that's actually how I got my start. I was acquisitions manager for a little company that was a turnkey company. So I was looking at between 40 and 50 homes per week, taking 100 pictures each, doing a little spreadsheet for rehab on each. And after you do that for a few weeks, you see lots and lots of homes and start get a good feel on what's going on. Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. And so for new folks, I mean, you know, you haven't heard it a hundred times yet. You haven't heard it enough. You know, get out there and go look at properties,

right? I mean, go see what's in your area. Go see what's available. Go see what's for sale. And by your area, I mean, your farm. And by farm, I mean, the place that you're actually. looking to buy a property and just look at property after property after property until you know them. You'll know them cold. Yep. Absolutely. That's the way to do it. Yeah. Cool. Say, do you do any like, you know, I know a lot of wholesalers do this. Do you do any like JVs? Do you work with other wholesalers, other investors to do deals together or are you just always by yourself? No, I do it. You know, I like to call myself a transaction coordinator. Really? If there's, if there's an opportunity to be had, I'll, you know, I'll get in the middle

of that. Okay. So explain how that would work. I mean, like, again, because I know there's a lot of different ways that JV could work,

but what kind of typically do you see happen? One way is, you know, someone who has a house, they have under contract, and they'll bring it to me, and they're having trouble selling it, and since I have a large buyer's list,

I can send that out. I have to be careful how that's worded because I'm an agent. And so, and it's not listed. So there's some stuff there I have to be really careful with. But otherwise, you know,

I'll actually buy it from them maybe, and then install it myself. Then, you know, On the back end of that, you know, tried to give them a split of the profit. And there's all kinds of different ways to make it happen. Okay. And you are an agent, you are a broker.

Do you recommend other wholesalers or investors in general, but specifically wholesalers, should they get their license? I think so. I know it's a question asked a lot on BP. And for me, it's the only way, you know, I'd ever do it again because I have access to the MLS. Yeah. And since I make some of me offers, you know, if I came to myself as an agent wanting to make all these offers, I'll tell them there's no way I want to make all these offers for you. Yep.

So you have to do it yourself. It's not worth your time as an agent if somebody's making that many offers because the success rate is so low. Right. So, you know, it makes sense for somebody to go get their own license and go do it. Now, that's not to say that, you know, all investors do that. But, you know, because we talk to agents too, right? There's agents that are listening to this. And some of them might be like, oh, my God, that's crazy.

I'm not, you know, why the hell would I ever want to work with investors? well, because there's a lot of investors who are doing buy and hold through agents that are, you know, turning around property left and right and you're going to stack your commissions up. You know, instead of going and hunting for, you know, one client, you know, at a time, you get a good investor like a guy like Brandon and, well, he's not that active. But, you know, you get an active flipper or you get an active, you know, more active person. And, you know, you're going to do a bunch of deals a year and you don't even have to look for new clients if I'm one or two great investors.

Sure. Yeah. Yep. Cool. That's great. You mentioned cash buyers a second ago. You know, you have a large cash buyers list. And, you know, when I talk to wholesalers on BP, a lot of times they, that's the first thing

they say is, I got to build my cash buyers list. And it's such like a thing that they feel like that's the number one thing they have to do before finding a deal before doing anything. Do you agree with that? I mean, where does a cash buyer's list come into play? And how does somebody build that? No, I don't think you have to have that at all. I think if you can't sell, you.

your deal, then you don't have a deal. Ooh, I like that. It's because if it's a deal right there. You know, if you have a truly a good opportunity, then they'll find you somehow because there's always people looking. So that's the first thing is to get the good deal. I hate to use the word deal so much. That's used car term.

I know. I say that all the time too. And I'm like, I need to be a better way for what we always talk about. Yeah. Opportunity. Sure, there you go. The good opportunity comes along, you'll sell it. and so don't focus on building your website or building your buyers list or getting this

get out there and get something. Yep. Get something under contract, throw it on the web and see what happens. Yeah. It's amazing how people spend so much time doing things that they think are helping them, but they're really just, I mean, just wasting time. I mean, like, because it makes them feel like they're doing work. They got this pretty website and they got this pretty, you know, whatever.

I don't think that's why. I don't think that's why. I think it's like back to my buddies, the guru. I think it's because the gurus sell that. They teach them that that's what you have to do. And they also offer the product. So they've got the websites. They've got the materials.

They've got all this crap. You know, hey, learn out about a buyer's list. You know, okay, all this nonsense. It's irrelevant. Find a deal. Pirobs. Find a deal. Once you start doing deals and business, then you could start worrying about scaling up

and kind of, you know, figuring the rest of the details. But, you know, you got to first figure out how to get a deal. Right. That actually just happened to one of the guys here in the area last year. He spent months and months with the website and all these cool automated, you know, when he wants to send a letter, he pushes one button and it creates it through, you know, three different steps and all these outsourcing and had it all, you know, the really high-tech polished for the back office, but he still wasn't doing deals.

Yeah. And he finally had to stop, about nine months into it, actually stop and do a full reboot and start all over. And now he's starting to do a few deals. But that first, because he got so tied up in that mentality, and I'm telling him, said, what are you doing? You're not making any money with the website. Right. Yeah, and it's not, like you said, it's not just the website.

It's the automation tools and all this stuff. And there's lots of promises out there of like this system. And I don't mean just like the educational system. I mean like this software system is going to, you know, do it for you. It's going to automate your whole business. No, it's not going to automate your business. Josh and I get those emails all the time from people that are like, what do you think about this software?

They said that it will send deals to my doorstep and help me close them and find me cash buyers to do it and I can just sit and do nothing. What do you think about that? And every time I just shake my head and I'm like, you have no idea what you're doing. Like, you know, like, yeah, it just drives me nuts. But anyway, it's good to see that you're putting in the hard work that it actually, because it is, you mentioned earlier.

You said this is your J-O-B. Like wholesaling, finding deals, doing this game. It is a full-time job. Are you at this 40 hours a week? Yes. I'd say for the acquisition side of things, you know, 40, 45 hours easily a week. Right on. And so what's your goal?

I mean, do you want to be doing this? You know, and by this, I mean, you know, the, the, wholetailing, you know, for the next X number of years. Or obviously you're keeping a bunch of these properties for yourself. So presumably you're building a portfolio and at some point you'll have enough in your portfolio that it's, you know, building you that passive income to help you kind of tune down. Is that kind of the plan? Right. Because, you know, I don't think I'll ever quit sales.

I don't care if it's selling cars or selling houses or selling bubble gum. I love sales. So I can see slung down a lot and doing a few large deals a year. and then just living off the cash flow. Right on. Cool. That's great. Hey, before we move on to the next section,

got a question here, which is what is on your business card? Do you have business card? What's on it? Yes, it says, yes, I really do buy houses. Right on. And it's big letters. It's really bold.

And I've seen that recently, and I thought that was nice. So I just got some made that says that. Then on the flip side, and fine printed, it talks about how we, We put people into homes without the use of a bank. And so we do a lot of lease to owns with our personal properties.

And then we use private money to do that. So we talk about how to help the in person, the end user, own a home without a bank, plus how to help someone like with an IRA, self-directed, making more than 0.06% in the CD or 2% on Walmart, or Wall Street. Yeah. So you've got a pretty big, I mean, it's like a pretty fully integrated. business that you've built now. I mean, you're, you've got lots of strategies that are kind of simultaneously working. How do you track it all? How do you manage it all? We just use a,

so the tracking side is quickbooks online. We just switched to online version recently. And then we have a really good accountant, which is key, very aggressive. When it comes to accounting, I'm all about it's, it's not what you make, it's what you keep. And a strong accountant can, can help you that. he's actually on BP, so yeah. Nice. And then just a few spreadsheets, really.

It's nothing exotic. I don't have a big, you know, some, one of those software packages you were talking about, and I guess that's about it. Cool. Yeah, right on. Cool.

All right. Why don't we move on to the world famous fire round? It's time for the fire round. Fire round, these questions come directly out of Bigger Pockets Forum. So number one, I am new to wholesaling and I'm asking for proof of funds before showing deals. What is a good way if it's a cash buyer? Let me re-say that. So I'm new to wholesaling. And I think it's, I'm being asked for proof of funds before, I don't know. I don't know if I like that question. Let me think of exactly

well, I actually think it's a good question. I'm wondering how they're phrased it. Yeah, I'm asking for proof of funds before showing deals. What is a good way if it's a cash buyer? Okay, I think what he's saying is so I'm a wholesaler and when I'm going to sell a deal to somebody, I'm asking the buyer for proof of funds. What's the best way to get that proof of funds from the cash buyer? Does that make sure to ask? Yeah, this asks for it. I mean, if it's the first time you've worked with someone and, you know, they're going to see it. They want to, you know, they're going to do all this, all this, waste your time. But, you know, it's so instead of wasting your time, so that's the first thing I ask is, for sure, is a PLF. Isn't really worth of

paper it's written on because you can find them on the web for free. But anyway, it's a starting point. But yeah, just ask for it. Okay. Right on. And that is literally just somebody saying, hey, I've got money in the bank that I can potentially close on this deal. Yeah. Right on. All right. I'm just starting out as an investor and really have an interest in rehabbing properties. What are the best properties to look for? Something simple at first. I don't, you know, I don't like to do the really old historic stuff. You get in a room, you know, you've got a little paint, you've got historic societies to deal with, you've got plaster. So something simple, just a little 3-1 ranch or 3-2 ranch on a slab in an older part

of town that's still halfway decent. Just get that, do a little, you know, do paint carpet, do a kitchen, and do that first, just go through that. And then once you get that experience, then you start to expand. Okay, okay, cool. Number three, as an investor, have you found it easy to obtain a small business credit card or a traditional line of credit in your business? You mentioned very briefly earlier credit cards, but do you use them or do you recommend people use them? Yes. You have to get those in your

personal name usually because they won't give you anything in an LLC or corp for two to three years of seasoning. So just get one in your personal name. When I first came back from Canada, we had horrible credit because we was gone. And you actually, it's worse to have zero credit versus is bad credit. So we couldn't get a loan hardly for anything. But for some reason, they would give me a signature line of credit, which was silly. They wouldn't give me anything else. Anyway, long story short, that's what you use. And then, you know, so get that credit card as soon as you can, you know, try to use it every month, pay it off. After a few months, ask for more, and this keep on getting a higher limit. And then you can start using that to buy houses with. Right on, right on.

Cool. What about my last question in the fire round is, you know, staging. Do you stage your own rentals, flips, or wholesale deals with furniture or knick-knacks, you know, full stages, half-stage, semi-stage, or not at all? We do a little bit. We'll do something in the kitchen. It's a nice call for plates, some little candle stuff, some little knick-knack. Do the same thing in the bath. And then in the family room, I've got a, like a 55-inch plasma prop TV that I bought that I stood in there

just to give the illusion of, you know, this could potentially be the man cave or this could be where the TV goes just to give it. But that's about it. I don't, I don't really do any of furniture anything. Okay. Cool, cool. Right on, right on. All right. All right. Let's go to the world famous. Also world famous. Famous for. All right. Number one, what is your favorite real estate book, Sean? Oh, you've heard it so many times. That's all right. These are rich dad, poor dad. That's what really was profound and got me started on the real estate path. So I have to say that.

Cool. Awesome. Awesome. What about business book? Any favorites? I like the EMeth. I used that back when we, for other businesses we've had and that really helped get the structure.

You get the job descriptions and stuff like that written out. So that helped a lot. Cool. Excellent. Awesome. Awesome. And hobbies, what do you do for fun, man? Surely not just real estate.

Lots of work. work. I used to play a lot of Call of Duty. Nice. Just recently after finishing the 10X rule, I'd acquit that because I was wasting too much time. Nice. So we like to still travel quite a bit, you know, and try to gather with my family. Right on. Cool.

Cool, cool, cool. Well, yeah, I, too, was a video game addict for a long, long time. Do they have video games back then? Like Pong? Was that your game? I did play Pong. Thank you for the veiled insult, your son of them. Oh, that was supposed to be veiled.

I don't know. That was... Yeah, well, anyway, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, it's really easy to get caught up. And whether it's like Call of Duty or like a little game on your phone, I mean, you just get sucked in. So a good way to find time is to get rid of them all. Yeah. Actually, I have an Xbox one that, I don't play very often.

So I lent it to my buddy for the last three months while I was working. on my book, which is, I'm not going to talk about that, but there's a new book coming out sometime soon. Anyway, so while I was finishing that, I gave it to my buddy because I just, I would, I would not write the book if I was playing video games. So yeah, if you're somebody at home, you're playing too much video games, lend it to your friend for a few months. It's amazing what you'll get done. Oh, yeah. So, all right, my final question, what do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from those who give up, fail, or never get started? Just keep pushing forward. I mean, you've heard it over and over again, and that's what I tell

people still. When you fall down, get back up. If you're not falling down and getting hurt, then you're not trying hard enough. I hate to see people just sit around and they say they're trying, but they're not, or they're always negative. The sky is falling. Loa is me. You know, that's average. Just get up and try something. I'd rather follow my face a few times versus set at home and think about, you know, what if, what if and what if. Nice. Yeah, that's great. I love it. Hey, before I ask my last question, you're pretty active on BP and have been, you've been around for years. You've got 847 posts.

You know, why do you do it? Actually, it's what got me started. I think the whole thing moving forward was there when I, for the first six months, I started when I went full time. And I was doing very little. And we had some savings, thank goodness. So I was kind of sitting around and not knowing what to do or how to make it. So I started doing my own wholesale. versus trying to be an agent for other buyers.

But one thing someone suggested was to get on BP and just going there to say hi. And so I started, you know, so I did a search for the keywords. And so I, you know, I spend maybe two hours per week now when I first got started for the first three months. You know, after three months, I started getting calls. People saying, hey, I see what you said.

And, you know, we're in California, you want to buy something in your area, can you help us? And now, again, I only spend, you know, one to two hours a week. But I get, you know, I've got private lenders for BP, you know, where they find me. I don't ask for it. Where they come to me, I probably sell one or two properties per month because of BP. I don't really, I don't use the advertising that much. Does people call that they're out of town and they want to come to town,

they want to see what's going on, I show them around. and so absolutely I would I'd recommend you know start getting on there and spending an hour or so a week at the very minimum and it'll you'll start seeing results for sure that's great that's awesome man awesome all right so Sean where can people find you I know we talked about not needing a website but you know surely you've got one now and you're out there so where can people find you online for the most part just it's there on BP you can find me there I have a website I haven't updated in probably two years so I don't even use it. Right on. And so just go to BP and I'll be glad to help out in the way I can. I'll link to that in the show notes. And the direct link to Sean's profile is real easy.

BiggerPockets.com slash users slash h-h-s. All right, Sean, well listen, man, it's been great. Definitely pleasure talking to you. Congrats on all the success and building this pretty solid business you got there. And thanks

for sharing with everybody and we'll look forward to seeing you around on Bigger Pockets. Great. Thank you. Awesome. See around. All right, guys. That was Sean Hullsappel. Hopefully you guys enjoyed the show.

Hopefully you heed his advice and get out there and make offers and stop sitting around and waiting for things to come to you. Stop wasting your time and energy on all-in-one systems that are going to solve the world's problems for you. They're not going to. You have to do it. You have to get out there and make things happen. So get out there and make offers. I mean, I'm not sure. if you guys got this up. But for me, I mean, hearing Sean, you know, he's got his sources,

right? He's got the MLS. He's got auctions and he's got HUD. And he's just working it and working it and working it and focused on it. And obviously it's yielding incredible results. The guy's not even marketing, you know, to hear a wholesaler, a wholesaler, who's not doing any marketing, I think a lot of people would be shocked to hear that. And so I think it's a great model. And, you know, want to encourage other people to try. ride out. Yeah. Yeah, very cool. I'm very like motivated now to go get my license and start making more offers. Make moves. Make moves. Awesome. All right, guys, well, listen, this is show 136 of the Bigger Pockets podcast. We definitely appreciate you listening. Please check out the show notes and you can interact

and ask Sean any questions you want at biggerpockets.com slash show 136. Also, make sure to follow us on Instagram and Pinterest and Facebook and LinkedIn. We're all over the place. Check us out. Check us out. get involved in Bigger Pockets itself. Jump on our forums today at biggerpockets.com slash forums. If you don't have an account, get in there and make one and start connecting with guys like this. This is how we make things happen. We interact and meet people and build our network. So get out there and do it.

Otherwise, I don't know. Brandon, the picture of the light above your head makes it look like you've got one of those napkin hats on your head. It's actually pretty funny. I do. That's my movie studio set up behind me. I'm going to go film a couple Ask BP videos today, which people should be checking out at BiggerPockets.com slash AskBP.

That is the other podcast we run here at Bigger Pockets. Yes, yes, yes. Well, listen, then, welcome back. We are glad to have you. All right, guys, let's get out of here. I'm Josh Dorkin. Signing off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small.

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