BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 146: Buying 100+ Units Through Word of Mouth Marketing with Enrique Jevons

Episode Date: October 29, 2015

Finding deals can be tough in today’s real estate market, but one technique that works in every market is word of mouth marketing! In today’s show, Enrique Jevons shares his story of quitting a 21-year career to become his own boss and build a real estate empire. You’ll learn about finding deals, managing properties, getting your real estate license, and so much more! In This Episode We Cover: How Enrique got into real estate coming from the hotel industry How signing checks for the owner opened his mind The importance of buying properties at the right time and right price point How be obtained a 13-unit apartment complex as his first property What you should know about choosing between multi- and single-families How he found his first property despite being a newbie How to use a HELOC for investing His current portfolio of over 100 units Enrique’s experience managing 500+ units with his property management company How he became the “guy that closes deals” How to get leads through word of mouth marketing Where Enrique finds deals Tips on networking and meeting new investors How he finances his deals What you should know about presenting yourself to banks How he manages his business one problem at a time Thoughts on getting a real estate license Whether you should consider starting a property management business And SO much more! Links from the Show MeetUp.com LinkedIn QuickBooks GoogleDocs Books Mentioned in this Show Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki The Book on Real Estate Investing with No Money Down by Brandon Turner Tweetable Topics: “Get as many units as you possibly can under one roof.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Enrique Enrique’s BiggerPockets Profile Enrique’s Personal Website Linkedin Facebook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 146. And so here I am every week being reminded of, oh my goodness, I don't want to be me anymore. I want to be that guy. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned. and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online.

What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorkin, host to the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host, Mr. Brandon Turner. What is going on? What's up, Josh? Look at me at my standing desk. I know. Look at the whole new set. Well, hi, I'm Brandon Turner.

I've got a window with a beautiful view behind me. I'm actually standing in, I'm in my kitchen right now, like dining room. kitchen table and that's where I'm recording this because my office is still not set up but I'm not on the floor like last week or what's just skipping your grief because yeah yeah I got the next window out your window is ridiculous thank you donculus it's a that's a cool view but yeah you know cool how you've been doing what's new I'm great man doing really well you know we're we're plugging away got you got a whole lot of cool stuff super excited over at some point in the coming weeks maybe month give or take we are we are going to be doing a bit of a reaper hand with bigger pockets

We've been working on some, you know, a new look, feel, logo design. It's very, very exciting. I'm jazzed. So definitely looking forward to that. We have something else new as well, which leads us to today's quick tip. All right, guys, today's quick tip is we just at the time of conversation that we're having a couple days ago, launched our Bigger Pockets Android app. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I know. I hear the applause. Yes. guys have been

very pageant. I don't even know what word I just said. You guys have been very patient with us. And yeah, it's probably like 50-50 Apple Android. I'm just an Apple fanboy. Come on. Yeah, me too. But we finally released the Android app for bigger pockets.

So get on the Google Play Store, download it. We've got push notifications. We're going to continue to make this thing better and better. And check it out. So that's today's quick tip. Quick tip. There you go. You ever head out on a trip, lock your door, and think, cool, my most valuable asset is now doing absolutely nothing.

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These gaps surface only when filing claims. That's why investors work with NREG. They specialize exclusively in real estate investors, understanding portfolios, risk at scale, and cash flow protection. One claim can erase years of returns. If you own a rental property, Don't assume you're covered. Have NREG review your insurance with someone who gets investing at NREG.com slash BPPod. That's NR-E-I-G.com slash B-Pod. For decades, real estate has been a cornerstone of the world's largest portfolios. But it's also historically been sort of complex, time-consuming, and expensive. But imagine if real estate investing was suddenly easy, all the benefits of owning real, tangible assets without the complexity and expense.

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check out historical returns and start investing in just minutes. Carefully consider the investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses of the Fundrise Flagship Fund. Fundrise Funding fund before investing. This and other information can be found in the fund's prospectus at funrise.com slash flagship. This is a paid advertisement. Hey, really quick, please jump on iTunes if you guys have a second. Leave us a rating review. Those things help us out. They're great to read.

Brandon and I get a lot out of them. They keep us pumped. They keep us motivated. And frankly, they help other people find out about us. So please take a few minutes, jump on iTunes. leave us a rating review. If you haven't done that, Stitcher SoundCloud, other places, you can do that as well.

Thank you. All right, guys. And so for today's show, we've got Enrique Jevins. Enrique is a real estate investor who has scaled a pretty impressive business and investing business of his own properties

and has also scaled a pretty impressive management business. We talk all about it. We definitely get into word of mouth. How do you build a business through word of mouth? and it's fascinating. It's really cool stuff. Enrique's an amazing guy. We've got lots of great tips and let's get to this thing. All right. Enrique, welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah, glad to have you. Enrique, your name is Enrique was it Jevins. We just talked about this minute ago. That is a very Spanish first name and a very English last name. Is that

correct? Yeah, that's exactly it. So actually, yeah, I'm actually 100% bilingual. So I, maybe 95% Spanish. I want to do the entire show in Spanish. Okay, let's... Okay, let's say... I'm lost already. I don't know what the hell he said, but, you know, that sounded like a good idea at first.

It's actually been really helpful. So that was, in my previous career, in the hotel industry, it was really helpful because of all the housekeepers that we employed in California. But certainly now I have a pretty sizable chunk, maybe about 25% of the tenants that I have are Spanish speaking. Of them, maybe 15% are Spanish-only speaking.

And so it's actually helped out with my growth tremendously to be able to speak Spanish. I want to go there. I want to get into that. That sounds fascinating. I think it's super smart to focus on niches and particularly a niche that you can dominate on and being bilingual. That's a great way to do it. Let's get there before we do.

Let's take it back. You talked about the hotel business. talk about your journey from professional to becoming a real estate investor and manager. Yeah, I got a degree, got my bachelor's science, went into the hotel industry just because that was my original true passion. And so I was in there for a good 21 years. And I worked myself all the way up to becoming general manager of a Marriott Hotel. It was a Marriott residence in in Palo Alto, California. and so I thought that, I mean, that was my goal always was, you know.

Was that where homeless engineers would spend their days because they couldn't afford to live anywhere else? You know, yeah, that's where they spend their days. And I tell you, they're plenty of money for them. So they're not homeless. But, well, yeah. It's a tough market. It's a crazy. Crazy world.

So, yeah, I thought, oh, this is great. I'm going to be Germancha. I'll be, you know, at the top. But then once I become Germanian, I realized that no, that I still had to answer to somebody. I mean, there's still the owner of the hotel. And then there's also, because Marriott's are predominantly franchised, and this one was, there's also Marriott Corporation, you know, that I'm answering to.

But it was really then with the rich dad, poor dad, reading the book. Nice. And there I am. Every week, I sign a check, signed all the checks. We do check runs weekly. And so once a week, I'm signing all these checks, and one of the checks, of course, is to the owner. And so here I am every week being reminded of,

oh my goodness, I don't want to be me anymore. I want to be that guy. Wait a second. I'm not at the top yet. I'm not near the top. And I'd only meet with the owner in the beginning. It was like once every three months, and then pretty soon it was once every six months.

And he had no knowledge really of the hotel industry. That wasn't his background. And so he's a developer. He's pretty much a retired developer because he did so well. And so, you know, he's making a ton of money for some very good investments. So obviously he took risk and now comes his reward. But I decided, you know, I'm just making a paycheck. And I would much rather, you know, go out on my own and be able to

to try and become that owner. Nice. So how did that transition happen? You were definitely in there for 21 years is forever. So stepping away couldn't have been easy. Did you just rip the cord or did you start doing stuff on the side? What was the part? Yeah, I ripped the cord, but it took a couple of years to get the guts up to actually,

yeah, pull the cord. What it was was every year we have some family in Yakima, Washington. So that's just, I mean, Brandon thinks he's in a small town, but at least he's got, you know, some normal, some humanity around him since he's. You just pissed off half-rata. Exactly. There's places he could go. All right.

You are a little more out there in the middle of a... This is just very rural agricultural town. But every year, we would fly up from the San Francisco Barian visit, and every year we'd talk about, with my wife's relatives about the cost of real estate. And I would just, every time I'm floored at how inexpensive housing is in a small town compared to a large urban area. And so I knew that I wasn't going to be able to buy rentals in the San Francisco Bay Area.

I mean, I was just completely priced out of the market there. So we decided to cash out. We had one rental, actually, and we had our own single family home. We'd had it for 15 years, and so we had a tremendous amount of equity built up in those 15 years. Yeah. So we cashed out, moved to Yakima, and then started buying property. And in the beginning, you know, it felt like monopoly money. And I was like, oh, my gosh, everything's on sale.

Well, oh, and I timed it right. Sorry. We moved in 2008. So we sold right at the peak. we sold in February of 2008. So I just truly hit the peak of the market in the Bay Area. And then everything tanked and I started buying up properties then in the summer of 2008. And so it really felt like everything was on sale.

When you say that just real quick, like what are we talking about price ranges here? What does a single family house sell for? Stuff like that. Okay, so, well, the first property that I purchased in Yakma was a 13-unit apartment complex, and I paid $380,000 for it. What? Okay. So, yeah, I put 25% down and got just $29,000 a unit. Yeah.

So I want to ask you, why did you start with a 13 unit? I mean, people ask that question a lot. Should I start with multifamily or single family? Well, so I had been researching it for a couple of years. So even though, like when I quit my job, I actually, well, I gave two hours notice. So after 21 years, two hours notice. And I was out the door. I jumped on an airplane and took off because I was closing all these deals.

I had deals lined up. So I was closing on them and everything. And so it needed to fly out immediately to take care of it all. But in deciding to go multifamily versus single family, it's because, essentially because I had the money, because I knew that to, and this particular property had just excellent cash flows. I mean, just the history of it. And it was just from an old couple who had had the property themselves for a good 20, 30 years. And the, but they, you know, they were at the end of their life.

As a matter of fact, the husband even passed away a few months later. So it was just something that they took it all the way to where they could no longer manage it. So it was a screaming deal, but multifamily just cash flows better, and there's just so many economies of scale. So my recommendation would be to anybody is get as many units as you possibly can under one roof. It spreads out the risk if one unit goes vacant, and that's only one 13th of the revenue is lost at that point versus 100% of your revenue if somebody in a single family home moves out. and then the insurance just, you know, the more units you got under one roof, the versus a single family home insurance-wise, it's more cost effective. So the economy is the scale just work out much, much better.

Right on, right on. All right. So, you know, this 13 unit, how did you find that? I mean, you said it's a screaming deal. Sounds, you know, I don't know what the rents are, but, you know, sounds pretty good. How did you go about finding it from this? couple. Yeah, for me it was the screaming deal. I mean, the cap rate was about 14% and I've been able to increase it from there.

So that's what I'm referring to is, yeah, it worked out is a great deal. I actually found this one by using an agent. So this was an MLS listed property and with an agent. But being

that in a real agricultural, small, or town, essentially, there's not a lot of investors with that kind of money and they had been approached many, many times about seller financed and they didn't want to sell or finance. But they wanted to use the cash from medical expenses and just cash out. They weren't going to be sticking around for another 20, 30 years to get paid off over time. So for them, it worked out better to get cashed out. For me, I had the cash available. So that right

there kind of knocked out a lot of the competition. Sure. Right on. Awesome. Can you kind of walk me through that, like, here you are as a full-time job, a career, like, where you had all that, and all of a sudden you're going to quit and then jump into that. Like, that's a scary prospect for most people. Like, what was your mind going through during that time? And before, really, really quick, I want to add one thing. I mean, presumably as a manager of a Marriott Hotel, you were making pretty good income. Yeah. I'm assuming off the $30,000 a door, you know, building here, you're not making close to what you were making. So, you know, You know how to...

Right. So let's talk about that as well. Sure. Yeah. So, yeah, a family of five. We've got three kids and, you know, I had spent my entire career, you know, earning a paycheck. And so it was not something I could do in the Bay Area because I needed to make, you know, mortgage payments there. However, because then moving to a smaller area, they were able to buy a house and then we bought it.

I was able to actually get an interest-only loan on it, so then my payments were only $800 a month when I completely maxed out. What it was is it was a HELOC, a home equity line of credit in the first position, which is pretty unusual. But what it allowed me to do is because I didn't want to use all the money I had right away. I bought that house. So now I've got that with a line of credit. So sometimes my interest-only mortgage payments were only $300 a month,

Sometimes they'd go up to $800 a month when I use that full line. Then I purchased, you know, I had the 13 unit, and then very soon after I bought another eight unit, and then another eight unit very quickly all within about a year's time. It's because I had enough money also saved up that, because we, you know, planning for this, we'd saved up money. Because I had enough money saved up, I realized that it could actually go a whole year without needing a salary. So I knew that we could live for a year

without any income whatsoever, and that allowed us enough time to make these purchases, get some cash flow going. But then, yeah, it was still very scary because I knew that it was a one-way ticket. I mean, there was no going back. And so I knew that I was forced

to have to make it work. So thank goodness it did. But I guess my fallback plan would have been moved to Seattle or someplace. Well, Seattle's still expensive. Moved to someplace affordable and, you know, get another job in a hotel. I'm sure you would have had no problem finding one. Yeah.

So how many units do you currently own now? Yeah. So it's about 100, just over 100 units at the moment that I personally own. And then I manage another 500 for other owners, my property management company that have. That's significant. get 100 that you own just on your own. I mean, like, maybe you can kind of, are those single family?

Are they multi- Are they all multifamily? Do you have any single family? Like kind of what's been your strategy the past six, seven years? Most of them are multifamily, and that's what I like the best. But I do have some single-family homes. And actually, the ones I've purchased more recently have been the single families. But those have been just now that I've kind of established myself. And so now it's just much easier.

People oftentimes come to me just because I know that I can buy. So I have a couple of different lines of credit, and so I use these lines of credit to go and purchase. But when I get these calls, typically, it's, you know, they want to close the same day. I mean, I'll get a call from an attorney. He's got an estate that he just needs to settle. The individual is deceased. He doesn't want to have to have it on the market for six months. and which is in the area that I'm at, it takes that long oftentimes to sell a home.

So, hey, and Marike, quick question. So are these all located in Yakima, all the properties? Yeah, all the properties that I've got that I own are in Yakima. Now, I'm starting to branch out from there. So I just moved, you know, a few months ago now to a place called Issaquah, Washington. So another smaller area, but it's a suburb of Seattle. So essentially now I'm in the Seattle area. Okay.

And you had talked about, you know, the attorneys will call you up and ask for, you know, say, hey, can you close them one day? They know you can do that. So how did you become that guy, right? I mean, obviously you became that guy. You had the cash, you know, in the first properties and things like that. But, you know, how did you become known as that guy? It's one thing to go out and find a real estate agent broker who can, you know, source deals for you.

how do you kind of expand from there and all of a sudden people in Yakima know like hey this guy is the business this guy is going to close on deals how does that transition happen so in the beginning it was talking to a lot of different real estate agents so I was letting real estate agents know

that I'm a buyer and so because a lot of agents have pocket listings is what they refer to pocket listings are listings that agents know about but they are not on the MLS and sometimes they're owners, and I've got owners myself too, that we manage for, that tell me that, you know what, I really would like to sell this property. I don't want to have to go through the trouble of getting it on the MLS or anything else like that because I don't want to spook my tenant. But if you come across a buyer, I'll sell it.

Okay, so now I know. So I was talking to agents in the beginning, and then from there it was a lot of networking. So it was, for example, joining the landlord association, pretty much. every town has a landlord association, which is just a immensely wonderful resource. So it was going to those meetings and talking to people and letting people know, if you ever get tired of your rental, I'll be happy to buy it. And a lot of times people don't, you know, they're not thinking necessarily ahead of time they really want to sell, but sometimes when they just come across somebody who they get to know a little bit over time and they then find out that

yeah, this guy really has a lot. You know, it adds credibility having, you know, the more properties you can get, obviously the more credibility you can have to persuade, you know, owners that, hey, look, I can follow through. I can buy from you. Yeah. You know, I really like what you said, you know, about the pocket listing thing and talking to agents telling them what you want. You know, I never really, I'm like honestly, I never really realized in the past what, like, why in a person would have a pocket listing, right? I'm like, well, why not just list your properties? But now when I think about it, I have said those exact words to my agent multiple times is, hey, I don't want to go through the trouble of listing this. But if you happen to know anybody, I would definitely be willing to sell.

And so I've got, you know, a number of properties that my agent knows that I would sell. And, yeah, now, I mean, it was like one of those moments that clicks. The pocket listing. Yeah, it totally clicks now in my head, like, why that is. Anyway, that was cool. You are blonde, aren't you? I mean, by the way, I was not an agent. You guys are agents.

I don't know. Apologies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Isn't it an insult to you? Yeah, yeah. I've got one guy of a triplex, an owner of a triplex who I keep trying to tell him, it's been over a year now that, you know, he's really actually wants to sell this property.

But the problem is that he has, it's seller financed. and the relationship he has with the seller is such that he doesn't want to let on that he actually is essentially he needs to get rid of his property. And so that's another reason too for pocket listing. So they're out there if you talk to agents. Hey, Enrique, on the management side, though, you also have an advantage, right? So you manage properties, you've got 500 properties under management. surely you're hearing from tired landlords as well.

I mean, I'm sure you do a good job of managing. But at the end of the day, even if you do a great job, I mean, there's headaches that come up no matter what. So I'm assuming that's a good source of full pocket listings. Yeah, no, definitely. There's a lot of the owners that have got are actually, they don't actually want to own the property. This is with single family homes.

So there's a lot of people that have single family homes that have moved and they would have ideally liked to have sold the property just but because the market was bad at that particular time, they decided that they're just going to rent it out and wait it out until the market improves and then sell it. So I have a lot of properties that are like that as well that I haven't really talked so much about it, but I know because that's how I acquired the property from them that under management that they would actually like to, prefer to sell whenever the market gets better. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.

I love that concept of using your network and finding deals through your network. We've heard that theme a lot lately here on the podcast. A lot of our guests have been saying that their leads are coming from their network and people that they know because they just let people know. So maybe I'll just challenge everyone of the listeners today. Really, really easy way and free that everybody can go and let everyone you know that you want to buy property. Go right on your Facebook today.

Go put a Facebook status. Say, hey, if anybody knows anybody looking to sell a house, I'm looking to buy a something in this town. And you know, you got hundreds of Facebook friends, everyone does. And so there's a very good chance somebody will know somebody who might be wanted to sell. And it might give you a good deal. I mean, it takes two seconds. That's a great challenge. Thank you. Nicely done, Brandon. Nicely done. Let me. Let me up this challenge. I'm going to up this challenge. So if you guys do that, I want you guys to go in the comment section on the show notes page, which is at biggerpockets.com slash show 146. I want you to do just in the comment section,

leave a comment. And then in that comment somewhere, you know, we ask a question or leave a comment for Enrique, but also just say, and I did the Facebook challenge. And we're going to pick one person and I'll give them a copy of the new book on rental property investing that should be out any time now. A couple of weeks still, I think it's coming out. But I'll give you an early copy as soon as it's published for free. So that's my challenge. Yeah.

So anybody who does the Facebook challenge is let me know in the comment section. You like that, Enrique? I do. I do. Go right on. All right. I paid for your last book, so I figured. Thank you for paying for the last book.

Yes, thank you for paying for the book on Invested in Real Estate with no and low money down, which people can get at biggerpockets.com slash no money. We got you, you bought it? What do you think? It's pretty good book. No, it's an awesome book. Thank you. It truly is because it's so just factual nuts and bolts.

There's a lot of books out there that are more kind of trying to get you motivated, the motivational books, but don't really tell you kind of step by step or, you know, what are the different things involved and different ideas. Whereas, you know, oh my goodness, yeah, it's a great book.

Thanks. Yeah, I'm going to put that on the sales page. It's a great book. Enrique Jepens. Yeah, a manager of hundreds of people. Yeah. All right. Enrique, let's get back to you and away from Brandon and his super overly inflated ego.

It's a level ego. It's a level. Oh, it's far from level, my friend. Far from level. All right. So, you know, some of these deals you had talked about the MLS. Is that where you find the bulk of your deals? I mean, you're finding pocket listings.

Are there other sources that are you doing any kind of marketing to find deals? That's how I think I, well, that's how I did find things initially. Now, things are coming more often to myself. I'm spending definitely much less time and time is definitely an issue for me. So I'm spending less time actually searching because it does take a long time to be searching, searching, searching.

I'm in a position now where I don't have to buy, so I'm fine if I go a few months, two, three, four, five, six months without buying something, I'm okay. I start getting a little antsy, but... A little shaky, right? But I'm okay. So I'm in that fortunate position.

Things do snowball. So that's definitely the nice thing is that over time, the business definitely snowballs. I mean, right now, too, as far as acquiring new properties to manage, in the beginning, you know, it was really, you know, a lot of pounding the pavement, a lot of, you know, going out there and trying to seek out owners to try and. see if they'll allow me to manage their property for them. Whereas now it's all coming my way. It's all referral business coming my way.

That's great. So we talked about the word of mouth through the networking, and you've established the same thing through your management business. Are there any tips that you have for the listeners to expedite the transition from an active marketing to a more passive word of mouth growth business? model. Yeah, it's really having to put yourself out there then. So it's some of the key locations for sure is going to be bigger pockets because, you know,

the network is so huge on bigger pockets now that truly there are people, you know, members of bigger pockets. I've got to say everywhere throughout the United States and certainly now in many other countries as well. So that's a huge resource. Meetup.com. Meetup.com is a great resource too, where there's a lot. It's a way to find real estate groups in your area.

If there are none, then it's an easy way to start one up yourself. Then, of course, LinkedIn is just a way to kind of add credibility to what you do. So you have to use all these online resources to put yourself out there and make sure it's up to date, make sure people can find you. but also the different RIA groups, the real estate investment groups, there's always real estate investment groups in every town. And even, you know, I'm going to the courthouse steps. Okay, so typically every Friday morning in most every town on county courthouse steps,

they have the real estate owned bank-owned auctioning off of properties. So the process takes a while. So what do you do when you're standing around? just start chit-chatting with everybody. And those are all buyers. And those are all people in the business. Buyers and sellers both. And so that's a way to start to meet all the local investors in your area, too.

Yeah. I love that. Great tips. Yeah, I love it. Cool. I want to go over to the financing real quick. And how are you actually, I mean, these are loans? Are they seller finance?

How are you getting them? So personally, for me, I like lower interest rate. So in the end, I always end up with a conventional loan. And so in the end, I've always got 20, 25% equity in. But as far as how I go about purchasing them, it's either typically now it's using a line of credit that I've got established. And I have a couple of different lines of credit. One line is on my personal residence. Another is just a line of credit I was able to establish for the business.

another line of credit is backed by properties that I own outright. And these are little, I've got a bunch of little single family homes that one of them, for example, doesn't have a foundation. And so a bank isn't going to lend on it. A couple of others, the price, they're in the $30,000 to $50,000 range, actually several of them that I've had are in that price range. It's just not worth it to a bank. Banks oftentimes don't want to lend out typically less than $40,000. And the closing costs involved in closing on, you know, even a $40,000, $50,000 loan, you know, kind of add up. I mean, for them it's the same amount of paperwork for a bank to close a $40,000 loan than to close a $1,000, $3 million loan.

So obviously they're going to prefer the higher loans. So on those ones, I was able to get a line of equity without. having to go through the appraisal process because what we agreed on with the bank was just to go ahead and use the county assessor's price. So typically a county assessor

price is a little bit on the low side. So they're comfortable with using that number. I was fine with it because I've got enough. I'm not trying to milk out every nickel and dime. So what I've said is, okay, every time I take on a property that I own, that I purchase outright, these little bitty ones,

then they just keep upping my line of credit by that much. So if I buy a $30,000 one, they will give me 80% of that $30,000. They just added onto my line of credit. No closing costs, no appraisals. It's just a piece of paper. So they're not charging me. Yeah, they're not charging me at one point or anything else like that. That's cool.

And that is kind of, would I be correct in assuming that's the commercial loan department at that bank? How's that work? Yeah, there are different banks that do differently. So a lot of the larger, so this, I use now just all smaller banks. So I have loans at several different smaller banks because what I found is that when you go to the bigger banks, you know, Wells Fargo Bank America Chase and all them, they are much more stringent and they are definitely looking for large, you know, large loans. Yeah. But the smaller banks, I've got typically do consider, you know, one to four units as being a residential loan and five plus a commercial loan.

Five plus actually has to be a commercial loan regardless. Sure. But there are some banks that will also treat the one to four units as a commercial loan. So I have a, there's a particular credit union in my area that treats them that way. The interest rate is a little bit higher on commercial loans. typically runs one point higher, commercial versus a residential loan. It's been a very experience. But at least they qualify, and I used them always in the beginning

because they would qualify the loan based on the cash flow of the property, not based upon my debt to income ratio. My debt to income ratio was holding me back. I had good credit, but because I didn't have a paycheck in the beginning, that's what was holding me back. But now I've got enough years of, you know, tax returns that I can show my income. And now my debt to income ratio is much better and it allows me to get some residential loans. But this line of credit with the houses, it's at four and a half percent.

It floats. It's a two-point margin. So now it's at four and a half percent. But it could float upwards if interest rates did go up. and it's only $50 a year is the maintenance fee on it. So it's a great loan. Yeah, that's great. Now, let me ask you, did you go to the bank and say,

hey, this is the kind of loan I'm looking for? Or did you go to them and say, I want to work with you, what can we work out? I went and said, I want to work with you, what can we work out? Cool. It was, and I found that just talking to the branch manager, and I started out in the beginning, you know, they would put me in touch with a banker. And I start my relationships with, always with them first,

but I then very quickly got to know the branch manager. And so getting to know the branch manager really, in my opinion, helps out tremendously. And it was, you know, a matter of I came in. I came in fully prepared. So, you know, I had tax returns. I had my, you know, financial statement and both my personal financial statement, my business financial statement. They could see everything, my profit and loss statements.

So, you know, bring that in. show that this is who I am and I started working out, you know, tell me what, what's available, what can you do? And then I would start to run ideas past them. So it was definitely kind of both ways. That's cool. And that just kind of illustrates how flexible, especially like commercial lending or small banks, those like, it, it isn't like a fanning me, Freddie Mac alone. It's not like, this is what we'll do for you, A, B, C, D, and you have to have E, F, G, whatever, right? So, like, they move around. I got a friend who's kind of one of my mentors that we're going to get here on the show pretty soon, I think. But he has this awesome loan where they, I mean, they customize

it just for him and his business models. He goes and buys properties with a huge line of credit. And then as soon as he buys them, they transfer it to a fixed rate mortgage through that bank as well. And he just buys. He basically doing that burr strategy, right, the buy rehab, rent, refinance, repeat. And it's all within this one loan package through a local lender. It's awesome. It's awesome, right? I need him to like introduce me to his guy who did the that for him and have them do it for me because it's just yeah it's amazing how much banks can actually do i mean it they don't have to do just one loan on one property they can do one loan on multiple properties and they can you know of course do the the line of equities they also one of the things

i didn't i had no idea but i just assumed you know in the beginning that they would have to send out an appraiser i had no idea that they would just base it upon the uh county assessor's side. It's like, I've not heard of that, but it makes, you know, they can do it. They were going to do it. Different banks. And what I noticed, too, is, you know, so banks have at sometimes they're, they're cash heavy and they need to make loans. And other times then, you know, they're, and you'll notice this, that sometimes they're advertising, really pushing, trying to open up new accounts. And so they're giving out, you know, oh, you know, give you $50 if you open a new account, that sort of thing. So then you know the bank actually needs cash. All right. So that's probably

the time not to necessarily start approaching them for loans. Interesting. Yeah, it's a great. But when they start advertising auto loans and here's our rates and stuff, okay, now you know they're flush with cash. And so they go back and forth, this balancing act for them. And so that's the times you want to hit them up. And so definitely it's advantageous to work with multiple banks for that reason to. Smart guy.

Yeah, I never heard that before. Yeah, that's awesome. I like that. So I got a quick question, take us back a little bit. and want to continue to go to move forward here. You quit your job. I'm sure you were doing pretty well when you quit your job. And you said, hey, I'm going to have a year where I can survive.

When you bought that first property and then the subsequent properties that followed, what did you do with the revenue generated from the property? Did you put everything back into the portfolio or did you start to take money out as a salary? How did you do that? I've never actually taken his salary. So I've only, yeah. I, you know, some people do. They pay themselves as specific salary.

I don't. I just, I try and live as meager as I possibly can. And I then try and reinvest everything that I possibly can. So in the beginning, I went and I was scrubbing the toilets, you know, when the tenants moved out, and I was the one who was doing all the work. I was the one who was sheetrocking and painting and doing all that. Because in the very beginning, I had that time of. available. Now, over time, then, as soon as I bought then the next property, okay, now I have a little bit less time. So then I figured out, what's the thing that I really don't, you know, dislike, don't want to do? Okay, the toilets. So I always falls back to the toilet. So I hire, you know, the housekeeper. So I have the housekeeper help me out. And, you know, it's just on an on-call hourly basis. And then pretty soon it's the maintenance, you know, becomes a little cumbersome. And so now I'm hiring,

out the maintenance. And then after that, I needed somebody just to help me out with answering a phone call, admin type of works. And so then I hired my first admin. And then so little by little, now I have five full-time staff members in my office, and I have two virtual assistants that I'm using. That's awesome. That's great. There are two kinds of real estate investors, those who have reviewed their insurance and those who think that they have. Most don't realize their coverage wasn't built for how they actually invest. Vacancy periods, rehabs, short-term rentals, or LLC-held properties. These gaps surface only when filing claims. That's why investors work with NREG. They specialize exclusively in real estate investors, understanding portfolios, risk at scale, and cash flow

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Yeah, because I like cat people. So I have under my LLC, I have essentially two businesses going. I have my property management business, and then I also have my real estate business. I have five real estate agents that work under my license. They're doing traditional representing the buyers and sellers. One of them specifically is pretty much just multifamily only. So then I'm able to, it definitely works out well

because even though I don't consider myself a traditional agent, I have bought and sold many times, but it's not the career path I wanted. I was actually very reluctant to become an agent. I was kind of really in the beginning fighting with Department of Licensing, saying, you know, come on, I don't want to have to get my license. I want to manage for others, but, you know, they required in the state of Washington, and pretty much most states require that you actually,

have a real estate license to manage for others, which I think is kind of crazy too. I do too. You can manage thousands of your own properties. But I have a salesperson license in order to manage my neighbors. And the salesperson license doesn't actually educate you

on how to get tenants or investing in real estate or anything else. Yeah. No, I totally agree with it. But yeah, but to manage one, you know, your next door neighbor's property, you want to manage that property, you have to have a license for it.

So I had to get a license. Now, having gotten the license then, I just, I had agents approach me and they said, oh, you know, how much would you take? Well, I figured, you know what? I'm just going to take a very small cut. And so as a result, what I've gotten is established agents because I'm not in the position to be out there training new agents, but I've gotten established agents who just want to have a, a smaller percentage taken from them.

And so now I've got five that are working under me. So that's actually worked out really well. It's kind of really more of a side business for me as a result of having the license. Yeah, that's awesome. I've never really thought about that. It's just, you know, I've been where you are, or I am where you were in that I struggle. I battle with should I get my license or not. You know, and I go back and forth and I took the test.

I mean, I took the class once and never took the test. That was probably a mistake. But now I don't want to go to 90 hours and go redo it. And I'm like, I don't know. It's kind of a cool idea just to get my license, at least then I can become a broker later on. I think what you have to do two years or something like that. Yeah. So state of Washington is three years, which is pretty typical.

I'm pretty sure that most states are the same thing, where you have to be licensed under somebody else for three years. The whole idea is that it's kind of like an internship where you're actually learning from an experienced broker on what does it? take? And so it actually is a very good thing. So as a managing broker, it just means also that you're responsible, though, for every single transaction. So every single transaction that these five agents are doing, believe me, I spend a lot of time on the paperwork reviewing it to make sure that it's absolutely 100% correct. And if not, I kick it back to make sure that, you know, because I am ultimately responsible. So as an agent, yes, Brandon, definitely, you got to get your license, get it now, because it does take three years to then go out on your own.

right? And so the thing is, is that if let's say, you know, this next month, you decide, hey, I really do want to follow through and make my wife go, you know, start up a property management company, then, you know, you're going to be kicking yourself. Make my wife start a property management company. I don't know about you guys. I can't make my wife do anything. There's a backstory here. Isn't that what this is all about? I thought the only reason I came off is, you know. I know back. I know back. I know backstores. story. So you brought it up. You can't make any. I mean, like, I, listen, honey, if you're listening,

I would never try to make you do anything. I love you. And I don't know about Brandon. I can try. It doesn't mean I'll succeed. You know, I can. No, okay. So this is the backstory, right? So we'll go there next because you brought it up. So me and Enrique actually met at a bigger pockets get together a meetup. There's probably 40 or 50 people there. And at one point, everybody went around the big, huge table. We were at the RAM restaurant up in Lakewood. Everyone around said what they did. And we got to Enrique, and he's like, I, you know, I'm not much. I just have 100 properties and manage 500. And I'm like, that guy, I got to go talk to him, right? Because when you go to those meetups, you go and talk to people you want to become like. Like, I'm a big believer in that. Find the

person at the next level and go, and so Enrique is at the next level. And so I'm like, I got to go, so I went and cornered them and like, we got to talk. And so in that conversation, you do like the corners. I do like the corners. So we started talking. And I just asked him like, you know, my wife and I been thinking of starting a property management business, should we do it? And that's what kicked this whole thing off. So I'm going to go ahead and ask you that again, Enrique, should me and my wife start a property management business. Yeah, so you definitely should. You really should. So that's the thing is that there's so many economies of scale. And there's so many things that if you're managing a few properties of your own to begin with, that it just makes sense to take it to the next level.

and that is managing for other owners. So if you're in the very beginning, I was using Excel spreadsheets, and then I was using QuickBooks, and then I used Google Docs online to be able to create online applications, and I fed that all in to Google Docs. I eventually then got over to a property management software company, and so it allows me to manage all the maintenance aspect of things,

as well as the accounting portion and the rental applications. and also if you're going to go to the trouble of you know i would i would actually need all that stuff anyway just to manage a hundred units anyway so since i already am paying for all those things i already have that set up and now with a hundred units too i needed an office space so that people can come you know to actually have a location whereas in the you know in the very beginning i was just working out of my house like you know so many other people start out and so if you you have that all already, it just makes sense why not manage for other people. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

It's worked out well. That makes sense. Makes sense. Well, cool. I think we probably will at some point open a property management company. I heard about, I will do it. I'm actually hoping to get my license probably this winter. I know I've been saying that here on the podcast for like a year, but when things slow down a little bit this winter, I'm going to get my license.

At least because, like, for the reason you said, slow down post, post book launch. Yeah, post a book launch. Yeah. But yeah, because like you said, three years from now we might want it. Now, there isn't a rule, and I don't know the whole rule, maybe you know it. If you've been involved in real estate for a number of years, I think it's like three years, but not been an agent, you can take like the test and become a property manager still. Have you heard that? There's some weird exception. Okay, so there is. There's a waiver. You can contact the department of licensing and request a waiver for the number of years. And so it is possible to do. I did. didn't do that. I just was a good boy and followed the steps. But if you want to be a rebel and you just want to, you know, do things your way, then yes, I would suggest contacting the department in licensing and ask them how much of my experience can count towards that three years experience. Yeah, I'm going to do that. I think I'll probably look into it. So anyway, very, very cool. I will get my lessons. I promise you. I promise everybody this. I'm going to do it at least some point.

So cool. All right, well, we got to get out here pretty soon. But before we do, I wanted to kind of wrap up with one final question before the fire round, and that is, do you think, do you recommend every investor should get their real estate license? Yes, I think so. The thing of it is that there are also, when you get your license, you know, the first few years, you got to hang it under somebody. However, that being said, there are, you really got to shop around for a managing broker because the fees very wildly. If you go work for a large franchise, you know, remax, Windermere, or one of these larger ones like that, of course, they're going to have some pretty high fees involved.

But usually an individual doesn't charge nearly so much. And if you just need a place to hang it oftentimes, you can even sometimes just get him to hang it for free and just say that. And as a matter of fact, yeah, one of the agents that I've got, he might do one a year. And so I don't charge him anything. I just do a cut, a percentage when he actually sells something. And that's just because he just wants to have it on the side because he really wants to be able to look on the MLS directly himself.

See all the private notes. There is a private notes section in the MLS that only agents can see. There's two boxes of public remarks and private remarks. And so the private remarks can get you a lot of information that you can't get just by looking online. So there are definite advantages to becoming an agent. and the cost isn't really that much, in my opinion. Yeah, okay. You convince me.

I want to know that private stuff. Cool. Well, why don't we move on? Right before we do get to the fire round, let's have our sponsor of the fire round. All right, today's sponsor is Fresh Books. So if you are a real estate hustler, you probably end up billing people for stuff quite often,

like late rent, contracting work, et cetera. I know that I do, which is why I am a huge fan of Fresh Books, and I recommend them all the time. FreshBooks is an incredibly easy to use invoice and software designed to help entrepreneurs get organized, save time invoicing, and get paid faster. You can also use it to keep track of your employees' hours, track expenses, and generate awesome reports. So Bill, like a boss, try FreshBooks free for 30 days. Just go to FreshBooks.com slash Bigger Pockets and enter Bigger Pockets in the How Did You Hear About us section when signing up. It's time for the fire round.

All right, this is the world famous fire around. These questions come direct out of the Bigger Pockets Forum. So let's get to it. Number one, user asked, I'm looking to buy a property for under $45,000 as a cash flowing property. From your experience, as a first property, should I buy an apartment like a condo or a single family house? Okay. So, my opinion is get as many units as you possibly can under one roof. That's just been my personal experience as worked out.

cash flow better. Okay, but they've only got 45 grand. So if they can't find a duplex, what do they choose? Condo or how? They could get like a 30plex. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, if you've got 45 grand, well, then maybe you network and meet with somebody and then you go in.

You know, maybe somebody else has another 45 grand. And you put your two 45s together and there you go. You've got a lot more purchasing power. Cool. And 45 grand is not a terrible down payment on a property in a rural. The rural area. All right. What kind of education is needed to build a successful property management business?

Yeah, so that's the first thing you need to do is just know what you're doing. I mean, and so you can go about it a couple of ways. I mean, yeah, you can start buying your own properties and then you just kind of, you know, hard knocks, figure it out. You can also then just go work for another management company. So that's where I would definitely steer somebody if they don't have a lot of money to start with is go work for another property management company because there you will get paid to, you know, may not be very much, but you'll get paid to learn. Cool.

Cool. Awesome. All right. Next one. Should I hire a property management company to manage my triplex if I'm living in it? So I'm living in one unit, renting there too. Should I hire somebody to take care of it? No. So, yeah, my experience has been

live-in managers, and so I've had a few over the years. They start out great. No, I don't think she's asking about hiring a living manager. She lives in one of the units, and instead of actually managing the two other units in her own building, she wants to hire somebody or is wondering if she should. No, I don't think it's worth, I mean, if you're living next door, if you're in a duplex, a triplex and you're living there,

it's going to drive you crazy, I think, to have to go through somebody else. I would just say, no, just be the landlord yourself and now manage it yourself. If you're not a confrontational person, which is, you know, people are afraid to ask for the rent or they're afraid to say no, you can't pay late, you've got to pay on time, then you need to, well, if you're going to continue in the business, you need to get a little time. Then you can get somebody to help you with that specific thing, but don't hire management company for a few of them.

Fair enough. There you. All right. Last question of the fire round. What questions should I ask when interviewing a property management company? So give me your top three questions to ask a property manager during an interview. Oh, well, actually, just go on bigger. pockets because it's been talked about so many times you got to see. Oh, don't cop out though,

Enrique, what are your favorites? Yeah, which is yes, management company. All right, so you got to ask them all their fees because there are a lot of different fees that different companies charge. We just charge a percentage of rents collected, but a lot of other people will charge a lease of fee in addition to that. They will charge an annual inspection fee. They will charge a fee. They will charge a fee for when the tenant moves out. I think there's, oh my goodness, there's so many fees that you can charge. So that has to be really clear. That's probably the very first thing.

Secondly is get references. I'm always shocked at how many people do not. It's actually pretty infrequent that I get asked for references, and I always think that you should. Just like if you're going to hire an employee, you want to check their job references. You should, and if you're hiring, you know, getting a tenant, you should check their previous landlord references. You should do the same with the management company. Thirdly, you should take a look actually at how they're advertising their properties. And so what I mean by

that is, you know, take a look at the quality of their website, the quality of the photographs that they're using to advertise versus somebody else. So now, we're large enough, we actually use, for example, a professional photographer. And that was easy enough. I went on Craig's list, and I posted an ad for a photographer, and I got tons of people. Yeah, it just said part-time, freelance photographer needed. And I got tons of replies. I went through all their pictures,

and it was really easy to hire a professional photographer, but not that many management companies use one. It's a good idea. How would they advertise? What does that cost, by the way? On average, what does it cost to photograph a unit? Okay, hopefully my poor guy is not listening, right? So I'm actually paying him only $25 per apartment and $50 for a house.

Okay. If there's travel time involved, you know, he's got to go a long ways, then I'll pay him for mileage as well. But 25 bucks to me, that's worth it. I get awesome pictures as a result. And he's awesome, and his name is, no. Yeah, well, he's got another job where he's actually making money. Right on, man, right on. Cool.

Oh, well, thank you for those, and I think it's time for something else. What is it time for? The Famous Four. The Famous Four, which we ask every single guest, so why don't we jump to it? Number one, what is your favorite real estate-related book? Well, it was, okay, actually, okay, now my favorite real estate book is yours, because you guys are the bigger pocket's real estate. And I don't even have notes in front of me to be able to read off the incredibly long name

that you picked for it. The book on investing in a real estate with no and low money down. So, okay. Thank you. I can barely get it right. I don't think you've ever gotten it right, Josh. Oh, come on. Let's try it right now.

Let's put Josh on the spot. Josh, what's the title of my last book? The book on investing in real estate with no money whatsoever. Good try. Good try. All right. So that's become my new favorite. In the beginning, it was rich dad, poor dad, which is not specifically.

Actually, it's not even real estate. to the first one that I read, but that's what really made me go for it. I would have loved to have jumped in and bought hotels, but that's a whole lot of money needed to do that. Let me ask you, are you going to eventually do that? Are you going to buy hotels now that you've been in the industry? I would love to get back to that if ever it got to the point, but it would have to be a nice hotel.

So, yeah, that would be awesome, but I don't know. You could come to Denver. There's a street called Colfax. and there's like a strip of like 50 motels. I don't know that you'd want to go there without a biohazard suit, but I'm sure you could probably pick one up for about $20,000. Sounds good. Sounds good.

Yeah. Right on. All right. Next question. What is your favorite business book? Yeah. And so business book is the rich debt. And so then I started reading pretty much most of his books.

Now, I'm also one to say, you know what, go to the library. I went and got them all from the library. They're all available. And then I just started reading, you know, like crazy all sorts of books from the library on, you know, on real estate, on business, and listening to audio tapes then. And now for me, you know, podcast, the last several years have been, you know, the big thing. There's all sorts of different, you know, books that you can get on podcast as well. So the Rich Dad and Poor Dad series was what really kind of shifted my, in a way of thinking, which it did for so many people.

Brandon, do you know what a tape is? I've heard of such things. I used to sit and record radio songs on a tape and listen to them later. Just checking. Just checking. There you go. There you go. All right, Enrique, back to you.

Hobbies. Thank you for fun. Yeah, well, now. It really is all my time is definitely spent on real estate and researching real estate and managing the business. But I do enjoy mountain biking. I was big into mountain biking at one point for one year when I was a very young, worked for a mountain bike manufacturer and I felt like I was on vacation the whole year. But there was no money in it.

So I finally had to get back to work. So mountain biking and skiing are just things that I really enjoyed. doing and they're skiing right close by to where I live too. So that's great. Right on. Cool. Cool. All right. My final question. What do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from those who give up, fail, or never get started? So a lot of these meetup groups and RIA groups that I attend and go to, and I go to them, you know, always religiously, you always see the person who shows up just once. And they always say, say, oh yeah, and I want to get into real estate, and then you never see them again,

anywhere, ever. And so it seems to me that it's just, it's perseverance. You got to stick with it. It's not something that happens overnight. So if you want to become, you know, a property manager, you want to get property management company going, it takes a long time. And so it's not that you can immediately start work and immediately earn a paycheck. You're, you know, over time, you're going to be able to really create a lot of wealth for yourself, but it just doesn't happen overnight. You've got to persevere. I love it.

That's great. All right. Where can people find out more about you? Where can we find you? So my website is jevonsproperties.com. So it's J-E-V-O-N-S Properties.com. And so I have a tremendous amount of information there. I do have my bio and stuff up on bigger pockets.

And so it can definitely reach me there as well and LinkedIn and Facebook. So I try to put myself out there. Cool. Hey, I have a quick question for you. I'm going to put you on the spot here. So we've got a book launch coming out. We've got the book on rental property investing and the book on managing rental properties. Names might shift a little bit from when they come out.

But when we released that, we're releasing some bonus content with it. And I would love to sit down with you and pick your brain on the landlording side. I think we didn't even hardly touch on that today. but how you actually manage property? Are you willing to sit down with me for a little while and we'll put it in the bonus content? Oh, if he's not, you know, 60,000 plus people are going to know about it. Yeah, so he better. He just trapped him.

I did, right? I did. You like that? You know what? I'm like every other landlord. Landlords love talking about problems. We do, right? I mean, every time I go to a landlord association meeting, oh, my goodness, you can't get people to set up their properties.

No, I am always happy. to talk about my properties. We'll schedule time in the next week or so, and we'll sit down and we'll talk and then we'll put it in the bonus content. So there you go. Enrique, well, listen,

thanks so much for being on the show. We definitely appreciate it. Lots of great stuff. And we will certainly look forward to seeing around bigger pockets. Thank you, guys. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

That was fun. We'll see around. Great. Thanks. Bye. All right, guys, thanks so much for listening to the show. Enrique,

thank you for being here. That was just fantastic. I mean, really good guy. Yeah. Like I said in the show, you know, like he's definitely like, you know, the next level where I want to get to very much so. So it was fun to pick his brain both in person a few weeks ago when I met him and then today. And just to bring back that what I talked about earlier, I mean, go to those local meetups, meet with people that you want to become like, like, is this so cool.

And people are so willing to share. I mean, not just Enrique here, but I mean, there's a hundred thousand Enrique's or a million Enriquez or more in America that you can just go meet with and talk with and learn from. So, hey, hey, get out there. go meet somebody like Enrique and take your business to a new level. Do it, do it. All right, guys. Well, thanks so much for listening. This is show 146 of the Bigger Pockets podcast.

You can check out the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 146. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week. I'm Josh Dorkin. Sign on it off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio. Simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate,

investing without all the hype, you're in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian Copywriting is by Calicoe Content, and editing is by Exodus Media.

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