BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 148: From 0 to 51 Units Despite Living in a Crazy Expensive Location with Nazz Wang

Episode Date: November 12, 2015

How do you build up a sizable real estate portfolio when you live in one of the most expensive cities in America? That’s the topic we dive into today on the BiggerPockets Podcast with guest Nazz Wang. Nazz has gone from 0 to 51 units in the past several years, both local in California and across the country. You’ll learn how Nazz overcame a bad first investing experience to find her niche in “lazy real estate investing” and how you can do the same! In This Episode We Cover: Who is Nazz and how she’s been investing for 10 years now How she got started through house hacking How she acquired the mindset of a landlord back in college Nazz’s first property — and her first big mistake How neglecting the cash flow analysis ended up costing her The issues surrounding owning condo units How to discover and thrive in your niche How many units she currently has The problem with HOAs How she bought in the Midwest to maximize cash flow A discussion about property appreciation (are there any indicators?) Speculation vs. buying things you can afford to keep How Nazz educated herself in real estate Her experience investing as a woman How she finds, finances, and manages properties outside of her area How to establish a pipeline to make investing easier The benefits of the BRRRR strategy How to manage property managers And SO much more! Links from the Show Turning “Weird” Properties Into Cash-Flowing Monsters with Johnny Youssef BRRRR Strategy Investing in Rental Properties When Your Local Area is Too Expensive With Mehran Kamari Building a $350 Million Real Estate Empire Using the 10X Rule with Grant Cardone 7 Ways to Find Incredible Real Estate Deals with Chad Carson Books Mentioned in this Show Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki Dune by Frank Herbert Tweetable Topics: “I would never pay money to lose money.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Nazz Nazz’ BiggerPockets Profile Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 148. That's kind of my goal. I've always liked to be lazy. So I wanted to find out how I can be lazy. That's why I don't do a 9 to 5 job. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing,

without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorkin. Host at the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host, Brandon Turner.

Hey, Josh. So let's talk about the World Series. Really? Because last week, you were really, really cocky about how good they were going to be. And who is they? The Mets. The Mets. You even called me Mr. Met.

And, you know. Yeah, the bobblehead. Yep. But at the end of the day, as everyone knows who listened to last weeks, you made a gigantic fool of yourself. I did not make a full. The Mets, on the other hand. They made a fool of themselves. Yeah.

They lost, man. Listen, at the end of the day, two pretty good teams going up against each other, great baseball games to watch, except if you're a Mett fan. You know, you can't make 10 errors in the World Series and expect to win. It's not going to happen. And so we lost, we lost. And that's it. So, you know, yeah, thanks. You know, salt in your eye.

I appreciate it. No problem. Let me give you a nice paper cut and pour some lemon juice on it while you're out. Yeah, let's do it. All right. Hey, so how are you doing? I'm actually doing really, really well. In the words of Dave Ramsey, better than I deserve.

Oh, very nice. That's his thing. That's great. How's your hand? Oh, yeah. So I'll show you it. I don't know. You can, there's the one wound and there's the other wound.

I took the bandit off today. Yeah, I was taking out. a laminate countertop out of my kitchen counters, going to put new counters in. So I was taking the laminate off because the company, I hired Lowe's to come in and do it, which is great. But then they're like, well, you have to demo the counter before we can come and measure. And anyway, end of the day, I had to pull it out myself and I cut my hand all up pretty deep. So that's fun.

Nice. Awesome. Awesome. What, why don't you ask me how I'm doing? So today's guest is NAS. Oh, Josh, how are you doing? What's new? I heard you got a new office and stuff. Yeah, I mean, come on. This is, this is big news. Yeah, we did.

We got a new office. It's very exciting. We actually will, by the time this airs, we will have just moved in at the time of this recording. I heard you got lost at IKEA yesterday for nine hours. We had a bit of an IKEA adventure, a few of us. And we left non-divorced. So, you know, the rumors aren't true. Although.

I or they found you crying underneath one of those, like, Swedish beds. and it was a sad moment. I was wanting and longing for my meatballs. I know you were. Yes. Yeah, it was great. We're very excited. And, you know, hopefully the next show will be recorded from our new studio.

So we'll see. But let's get to today's show. We've got an amazing show for you guys. And before we do, let's get today's quick tip. All right, guys, today's quick tip is we talked about this in previous shows, but I just want to make sure that you did not miss it. We have launched a BiggerPockets Android mobile app. You guys have been begging for this for years now,

and it's there, it's out. People are starting to use it. We're getting great feedback on it. We actually are also improving our Bigger Pocket's iOS app, adding some new features to that very shortly, if not already by the time you listen to this. Yeah, like the keyword alerts and instant messaging and all that, right? Private messaging.

Probably. Yeah, it's going to be pretty awesome. So if you have not yet downloaded the app on your iOS or Android device, go to the stores the Google Play or iOS App Store and download it. Check it out. That's today's quick tip. Quick tip. Have you ever lost a DSCR deal because the financing just took too long? Red flags popped up late. The lender needed more time. The deal fell apart. Well, our friends at Dominion Financial just launched a program to help prevent that with their new express rental loan, you can close in 10 days or less. And they still offer their price beat guarantee. So you can get great pricing and a timeline you can count on. Fast, simple, reliable. That's

Dominion financial. Check them out at biggerpockets.com slash dominion. That's biggerpockets.com slash dominion. Here's the thing about traveling. If you buy food at the airport, a burrito, salad, bag of peanuts, you start wondering if you should have opened a savings account for snacks. So wouldn't it be great if you could actually earn money while? you're traveling. Well, you can. Airbnb has something called the co-host network. While you're away, you can hire a vetted local co-host with hosting experience to help take care of things, communicating with guests, preparing your space, managing reservations, everything runs smoothly while you're off making memories. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much

at Airbnb.com slash host. A lot of property managers think their job is answering tenant emails and coordinating repairs. That's not the job. The job of a property manager, is protecting and growing your operating income and earning your trust while they do it. And that comes down to three numbers. Occupancy, delinquency, and net promoter score. If those numbers slip, your income slips. And your trust slips too.

And most PMs don't hold themselves to performance standards. They focus on activity, not outcomes. Mind is different. They obsess over the metrics that actually grow your cash flow. go to mind.co slash show me to see how mine performs and get a month of management for free. Because if you're going to hire a property manager, hire one that manages your investment like an investment. All right, guys, today's show, really, really cool show. This is, by the way, show 148 of the Bigger Pockets podcast.

You can check out the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 148. And if you're on iTunes, oh, by the way, Android is launching a podcast app. I don't know when it's going to happen, but we're in the new Android podcast marketplace, even though it hasn't yet launched. So if you also are an Android person, definitely download that app now or whenever it comes out and make sure to get our podcast and leave us ratings and reviews there, guys. Also do it on iTunes. That definitely helps us. And we're climbing up there in the rankings on the number of ratings and reviews we have. So keep them coming. Keep them coming. We definitely appreciate them and they help us out.

But today's show, guys, Naz Wang is our guest. She is a real estate investor from San Francisco. So for everybody listening who's thinking, hey, I live in New York, Miami, San Francisco, wherever the heck you are. And I can't invest because I'm in a big city. Please stay tuned because you will find out exactly how this wonderful woman is out there and making things happen. We're really excited.

Great show, great energy. And there's a whole lot of cool stuff to learn from her. So pay attention. And let's bring her on. All right, Naz, welcome to the show. It's great to have you. Great to be here. That was the first time Josh got your name correct.

And that was the, what, the third time we started this introduction? You know what? Can you blame me? Can you blame me? I can blame you, but that's okay. That's okay. You know, it's hard. NAS like jazz, right?

NAS like Jazz like Jazz. Jazz like Rasmataz. Exactly. So, Naz, welcome to the show. Who are you? What do you do? How'd you get into real estate? Let's start there. I am a human. Good.

Get that cleared up. I'm glad we didn't book the Android. Yes. There you go. I am from California and I've been in real estate for maybe about nine, ten years or so. Okay. Now, you're not just in California. You're in like San Francisco, right?

Like the most expensive city on planet Earth pretty much, right? I was trying not to bring that up so that people don't discriminate against me because apparently there's a reputation out there for people who live in San Francisco. Apparently there is. Yeah, I live in San Francisco. I do. Okay. Okay.

And that's why I want to talk to you today because so many people are always like, I can't invest in San Francisco. It's impossible. Or L.A., New York, Denver, whatever, right? Everyone's out there a reason why they can't invest because they live in a big city. So that's why. So I want to find out today. Today we're going to pick your brain to find out how the heck are you.

you investing even though you live in San Francisco. So what do we start though at the very beginning? What was your very first deal? Well, I want to go before that. Fine. Forget, forget her first deal. Like, why real estate? How did you actually, I'm taking over. I'm in charge. I don't want this. There you go. I can see who's wearing the pants. Yeah. Sorry, that was funny. That was funny. And the frightening thing is I think Brandon probably podcasts with no pants half the time. That's the irony. I got jeans on today. It's okay.

Oh, nice. Thank you. So what got you into real estate? Like, why invest in real estate? What was the impetus? I thought about this story for a long time yesterday, whether I should tell you or not, because my mom might be listening to this, you know, next week. So, hi, mom.

Try not to offend her. But, you know, my mom's a big entrepreneur. She owned this clothing factory in China. Actually, she ran it for decades, selling a lot of clothes all over the world. So she was one of those types who would just kind of earn a lot of money and spend a lot too. And, you know, at some point of a career, I kind of looked at her. I was about to go to college, 18 or something. And I thought, wow, like she does all this work.

She makes all this money. And the most reliable assets she has after 20 years of being in the business was two pieces of real estate and some cash in the bank account. So I'm like, well, okay, why, why all this work? Why don't I just start with real estate and cash in the bank account? Yeah, so that's kind of how I really wanted to get into it. It's kind of like, okay, well, just get to the end. And then, yeah, that's how I started. Cool.

That's awesome. So she, you know, through the course of her business, had picked up some property. Was that property in China or was it in the U.S.? It was actually in China, yeah. It was a primary residence that she had, which is like this high-end condo that she still owns. And then a vacation cabin somewhere in the country. Hey, Brandon, why did you book next? as and not her mom.

I don't really, you know what I mean? You should. More interesting. Yeah, yeah. Next show. All right, good. All right. So we got you.

You see your mom's doing all this stuff and you say, you know, how old were you? Were you in college? Were you just out of school? No, you were 18, you said. Yeah, I was going on to college. I was trying to pick a major, actually. That was kind of the college education, right? So I picked political science, of course.

That helps with race. I didn't finish up with that. Yeah. Nice. Cool. So how did that transition kind of get you to actually get started in the business? Well, at college, I ended up renting a house that was a four-bedroom house. And at the time, I hated my roommates. And I didn't have anyone to kind of move into besides, you know, one other guy.

So I said, well, you know, this house is a good deal. Let's rent it and figure out what to do after. So I ended up sort of supleasing all the rooms out and ended up paying almost nothing for, you know, a few years. just living in this huge house because I was sort of house hacking in a way. Yeah. And then I thought, whoa, great. That was easy doing nothing and kind of getting paid. So I want to be a landlord.

That's kind of how I get started. Nice. I actually did the same. In college, I rented a four-bedroom apartment. And I ended up living on the couch because I rented out all the bedrooms because I realized how awesome it was to be making money. And I'm in college so I could live on the couch. So, you know, that's acceptable then.

So couch surfing your own house. I did. Yeah. And I rented them all out. Oh, that's cool. That gave you the inspiration then. You said, I want to get, I want to be a landlord. So that's what you do, you are buy and hold investor.

Is that right? Yes, I am. Okay. Let's talk about your first deal then, then. How did you buy your first property of your own? Yeah, so that was like the biggest mistake I've ever made in my career. Good. That'll be fun to talk about.

Yeah, let's hear it. Freshly married, you know, out of college, he's got this great job, and husbands got this great job, getting all cocky. And what I'm in school, I'm a hundred a red, Let's see how much we can afford, right? So I ended up buying a condo in the college area that I went to school. Did you go to school, by the way? UC San Diego.

Okay, cool. Yeah, Beach Town. It's great, though. I love the condo while I lasted. Ended up there, we kind of pretty much went up to the top of our price range and bought a condo. And I hate condos. At this point, I've never bought a condo again. Oh, Josh loves condos.

They're Josh's favorite. Yeah. Not a fan. Not a fan. Not a fan. Might be for the same reasons. We'll find out, I guess, as you continue the story. If Brandon wouldn't keep interrupting.

I'm done. Zip. All right. So, great condos. Got a pool. How cool is that? And there's college students. So if I need to rent it out, I never have to worry about it.

Ever. You know, it's brilliant. And H.O. He takes care of myself. How great is that? So all those turns out to be negative points. College kids in the pool Oh, exactly, with the HOA members

So we lived in there for four years As a primary residence And then we moved on to the next condo I bought That was great while we lasted But then when we rented it out We realized oh wow, it doesn't cash flow So I forgot to do the cash flow and that us as part when I was, yeah.

Yeah. It was really stupid. So we're probably ended up losing about $1,000 a month, leasing that apartment. Wow. And we really didn't like that. But, you know, at the time we could afford it. So we kind of say, oh, you know, we just went to the next investment property.

Did it as a primary as well, a condo. And then we kind of just went from there. Okay. I got my hand up. I got a question. So your first condo, the pool one, and then you went and bought a second condo, which was the one that got the loss? Was it the first to the second one? It's the first one. Okay, so the first one. All right. So when you bought it, was your intention to buy it for investment purposes or was the intention to buy it to live in? That's my first question. So the intention was to buy it, to live in it, and then when we go out of it, we'll rent it out.

Okay, but you, so you weren't thinking long-term about the actual analysis when you bought it, which was certainly one mistake. You said you made a bunch of other big mistakes in there. I feel like there's a story with college kids jumping off a balcony into pools. Where's the fun part of this story? Well, the fun part of the story, do I really have to tell you? Yeah, of course. You're here on the air live with Brandon Turner and his minion, Josh Dorkin. Minion, I like it. Perfect. Well, you know, that condo was great. And we had a lot of fun having turnovers every single year because it was a transient population. So, I mean, it depends on what you're looking for. You know, students tend to be transient. They don't like their roommates. They move out and they don't really consider how much it is to change housing. So it cough a lot for me, as we all know, turnover is the most expensive thing you can have. So every single year, I was showing it and showing it. And the way just the condo was set up, it was really difficult to show because there's like four different gates and you have to go to the front gate they walk the people in to the second gate and it was just super duper secure. It was very difficult and there was a lot of work. And then there's a whole bunch of new housing that came up in the area by the school.

So it just dropped and it was just... Gotcha. So there's a few issues there. I mean, one, obviously we talked about, which is the whole, you know, if you're going to buy with any intention down the line to do some. kind of investment with it. You got to do the analysis, right? So we got that. Two, it seems like the difficulty of kind of accessing it was problematic. And I could see that certainly being a problem. The transient population, we actually just did a show last week, I think, or two weeks ago about college rentals. And, you know, I think if you take that in mind, like here's the, here's the

beauty of real estate. I think it's just kind of important to talk about, you know, that doesn't work for you. That wouldn't work for me. I wouldn't want that population either. But some people focus on that niche. They thrive in that niche and they rock it on that niche. And that's the coolest thing about this business is, you know, everyone's like, well, you know, I'm going to be a real estate investor. I'm going to be buy and hold. You've got to define it even more. You got to really narrow it down to exactly what you want to do within this business and figure out what's going to fit you and fit your long-term goals. So, you know, just because that didn't work for you, doesn't mean anything. You found obviously your niche later and we'll go there. You had really

quickly mentioned the HOA and it sounds like HOA was an issue for you with this and potentially the other property. Is that true or is that not at all? I want to circle back on your point. I actually thought that was a really great point that I wish I brought up because then I would seem more intelligent than I am now. It's true. See, the thing I like about real estate, say is that I got to choose who I deal with. So I'm kind of my own boss and depends on what you want to do. So the premise of this whole theory is that I'm a lazy person. I want to use my time really effectively.

So I want to do the minimum amount of work to make enough money so I don't want to be super duper rich and I'm not, I'm lazy, right? So for me, it was management intensive. So it didn't work out. And it's important for people to kind of think about, well, what do you really want to get out of it? Do you want to have a big cooperation and run a whole bunch of employees? and that's fine or just kind of hang out.

And I'm going to interrupt you on that again. Hold on because this is really fascinating to me. No, because a lot of people come in here with this dream like, hey, I'm getting to the business because I want to be filthy rich. I want to have everything. You know, it sounds like you don't, you don't care. I mean, and I'd love to know exactly what your goal is. It sounds like, you know, as you call yourself lazy, I'm just using your words. I'm not calling you lazy at all. but it sounds like you want to just kind of build a portfolio that kind of takes care of itself that you don't have to work too hard for and kind of live your life at that point you don't need to be a millionaire you just want to kind of live comfortably off your real estate is that

kind of where you're going exactly exactly that's that's kind of my goal I've always like to be lazy so I wanted to find out how I can be lazy that's why I don't do a 9 to 5 job because it's a lot to work you know I have to be there all the time do at the minimum I of time and just have enough. So my goal is... You are lazy as hell. That's why I'm a landlord, right? That's why... They don't do anything. They just collect a rent check and they go and sit on their martinis.

That's all I do. You're making a bad image for landlords. Yeah, a lot of people think that anyway. So, I don't know, I have the income that I want and I'm there. So I'm feeling pretty relaxed right now talking to you guys. That is awesome. That's good. How many units do you have now then? I have.

She does need to come back to the HOA thing. Oh yeah, yeah. We'll talk about how many units do you have? 51. 51 units. Are they all single family, multifamily, or what are they? A mixture. Mostly single families.

I've got a 10 unit. I've got a whole bunch of duplexes. Okay. Okay. And those are all in San Francisco, I'm guessing not? No. Some are in California. and some is in the Midwest and Wisconsin.

Oh, okay. Now, okay, we're going to get into that. So before we jump into that, because I want to talk about that, H-O-A's. Josh will yell at me if I don't go back to H-O-A's, right, Josh? Okay, so what is the problem with H-O-A's? Like, why do people struggle with H-O-A's, or why did you struggle with them or did you even? What's the issue with that? So many faucets.

Oh, my gosh. First of all, it's super expensive. Okay, yeah. My Uchay at the time was $485 And it went from $3.85 to $485.85 over the course of a couple of years, right? So, okay, $485,500 doesn't sound like that much, but what do you get out of it? You get landscaping. You get all this other stuff that I don't really care for.

You get a pool. You get a pool. You do get a pool and a chakoozy. It's a very expensive way. I mean, gym membership is much cheaper than that. Come on. Yeah. And you get a pool.

And the worst part for me is that you actually have to work with other people to do stuff, you know, modification to your own house. For instance, if you were doing plumbing, oh, while every other Wednesday is the plumbing day and water gets turned off for the whole building, because the way this building is a lot, are the plumbing setup, you have to shut off the whole building to do any work in any individual units. So it's a huge collaboration between me and the plumber and the tenants and the building, HOA person. So it's a lot of work. Yeah. I don't do it anywhere. It adds an extra layer, right? I mean, it's just, you know, it's enough work to actually manage your tenants and your property,

but now you have to manage this group of people who are in charge of the HOA. And it adds a layer of complexity to something and that it puts part of the business out of your control is, I think, the biggest issue. That's probably how I would phrase it. You know, there's a bit of a loss. And so, you know, one of the reasons that we all go into real estate is so we can actually have more control than, say, stocks. you buy a stock, you have no control over what the board does or the company or the CEO. You know, now you've got this HOA that's unpredictable. They may vote for something, decide to spend money here, you know, whatever it is. And, you know, suddenly your financials look very different, right?

Absolutely. And then even just back to the control, the second counter I bought, the HAA board actually decided that they don't want anybody to rent out any units for less than two years. So those are things that directly affects your financials. Because the common lease is one year. So things like that is why I don't work with Asia Ways. Yeah.

Yeah. That's the other way to tell people too, is that somebody else is making your financial decision and it can be dangerous. Oh, yeah. All right. All right. So you've got 51 units now,

mostly single family. I mean, how does that happen when you live in San Francisco and you live in an area where a single family house costs more than like, I don't know, my entire town? Like, how does that happen?

It's a long story. So we got time. Oh, we get tons of time. We go to get in the morning. Yeah, Josh doesn't. He's going to sleep. I got time. Well, you know, so we bought this condo.

We rented it out and we just kept buying houses or condo. Or the second deal was a condo. The third deal was a single family home. It's been single family homes and duplexes ever since. Okay. So at the time, we bought four different properties in California. and that's pretty close to the bottom of the market back in what 2010, 11, 12-ish. Okay.

So those properties were kind of my anchor properties because those are pretty much bought with a minimal cash flow. And my standard at the time was if it's less than $200 negative a month, I'm buying it, which is really rare in California because I thought, oh, well, red appreciation. That's how you make money. And then those houses really appreciate it. So we kind of took out the equity for our existing holdings, and we used that to buy cheaper properties in the Midwest that cash flow really well. And we've bought most of our portfolio in 2014 and 15.

Okay. So here's an interesting, I had a conversation with a friend the other day who lives in Southern California, and he was looking at a duplex that he wanted to buy. And this thing was like $500,000 and it rented out for a total like $2,200 a month. And I ran the numbers and I showed them, and it was negative $700 a month in cash flow. And I showed to him and he's like, okay, well, that's not bad. I think I might do it. And I was like, what? And then the longer we talked about it, though, like this guy who doesn't even know that much about real estate, he was on to something.

And this was kind of the philosophy that we talked about. And I'm not saying you should go do this. It's not what I'm saying. But here's his philosophy. He's like, I don't need cash flow. I've got more cash that I know what to do with right now. What I want is long term wealth. He's like, so the cash flow is going to be offset by the loan being paid down.

every month. So those are going to cancel each other out over the long run. The mortgage being paid down and the cash flow will cancel out. So it's almost like I'm just putting money into a savings account. But I'm buying in a great area of Southern California that I believe is going to go up in value. Again, that's playing the appreciation game. I'm not suggesting people to do that. But it's an interesting philosophy, right? Like he doesn't need the cash flow. He makes a ton of money at his job or his business. I don't know. So what do you think of that philosophy? I mean, is that is that smart? is that really bad idea to bet on that appreciation, hoping that's the only thing going to bail you out long term

is California prices doubling every year. I mean, and I'm going to add something. I mean, $700 versus, you know, 200 or less loss. Not an insignificant difference there. But, yeah, what's your take on that? I mean, why would I ever spend money to lose money? There's a business decision. Like, I'm going to spend money to lose money.

that's a no for me apparently. It's crazy. Yeah, I would not do it, but. I mean, oh, well, getting back to the negative 200, I always underwrite my properties with just way too many rules, and usually I'm way overshoot for things. So in actuality, we'll make about $2,000 a property on those negative 200 a month.

So it's actually positive, yeah. So I really overshoot. So really, I would never pay money to lose money, again, ever. Yeah. So here's the question, because I think a lot of people, let's call them, well, some people, they call themselves investors, but let's call them speculators, because that's what they are. A lot of speculators or want to be speculators hear about how, oh, you know, California is up, you know, 12% per year, 15, 18, 23%, whatever it is.

You know, Denver is up, you know, 18% last year. Cool, I'm going to buy some property and get those gains and it's okay if I lose a little bit of money just because something increased in the past does not necessarily indicate that it's going to continue to go up. But you're somebody who actually said, even though you're making money on these and you're not losing the 200,

you're willing to lose the 200 because you believe that you're going to get appreciation. So we don't really push the button on this a lot, and since I have you and you're willing to do that, I want to ask, what is going to be an indicator for you that prices are going to go up? What are you actually gambling on?

Because you are doing a bit of speculation here. You're doing smarter speculation than probably the guy that Brandon was talking to and other folks. But calculating that negative 200 just because you're going to make money over time with spec with appreciation. What do you want? What do you look for in an area? What's an indicator to you that you're going to keep going up? See, at the time, appreciation wasn't even part of my plan. to be honest, it kind of just worked out that way. It worked out well for me, but I was thinking

that rent is going to go up with, you know, inflation. So I know at exactly what point, that that was my thinking. It's not what happened. But rent was going to go up with inflation, which is what, 3.5, 4% a year. And I know exactly when I'm going to start making money. And with the cash flow, I will eventually have all these rentals that makes money. And to, to have a break even in my underwriting procedures, I've never seen prices like that. So the best I could do was negative 200. And that is actually not a correct assumption.

But that was, at the time, that was my thinking. And it turns out that appreciation, just because of the negative 200 guideline, that pretty much kind of puts me at the bottom of the market or close to, you know, the bottom. And it worked out okay for me. But I guess I never planned to work on the appreciation approach. Yeah, so your strategy wasn't like my friends who specifically went into it or he's trying to go into it knowing he's going to lose a ton of money.

But yours was more of like you just went into because you didn't know any better and you bought him and got it. Okay, okay, cool. I thought it was more intentional. So sorry. I wasn't that smart. Sorry. I didn't play that far ahead of time. No, it worked for you, right?

Like five years ago, I would have said that somebody would be crazy for buying a bunch of California real estate only, you know, count on appreciation. but let's be honest, that person who bought a bunch of properties losing a few, you know, five years ago in California made a lot more money than I did, right? So were they really that stupid or were they lucky? I mean, I don't know. I mean, that's a, but that's why I asked the question on what do you look for? Because, you know, frankly, I don't know. I think if somebody knows the answer to buying appreciation, I'd like to know it. You know, it's the same answer as, you know, what's the answer to buying and winning money with stocks? I mean, I think it's long-term play.

Over time, it should. The speculation brings up to you have to time the market, right? So I don't time the market. What I do is I buy things that I can afford to keep. So does that make sense? So it has to cash flow positive with margin in case poop happens, right? And I can't afford to keep it. So it doesn't matter where I buy it in the market as long as rent doesn't plummet.

I can't afford to keep this property. And over the long run, you always have appreciation in real estate. Like if you keep it with 30 years, most likely it will appreciate. So that's my goal now. Do you calculate a reduction in potential reduction in rent in your formulas? And this is a question. I don't think either of us, Brandon, has asked anybody. Is that something that you include?

Like, hey, rent might go down by 10, 20, 30% over the next couple of years. So maybe I shouldn't buy this. don't, but I do buy single family homes, which I think is a niche to protect myself from volatile red up and downs. So I think what, in my perspective, if you buy a single

family home, you know, there's only so much of them. And suburbia development, you know, it takes a lot to develop a whole suburbia and you only have so many single family homes. But if you have condos, you've got competitors and people can, you know, build those up in like 12 months.

So that's kind of, if somebody is willing to rent a house. Like, I've got to tell that, you know, it's a mom, and she has two sons and a granddaughter, and she has to stay a single family home. She's get grandkids. You know, she wants a yard to play with. So she's never going to move, right?

I've got another family who has four kids, and the kids are, you know, in elementary school. They're going to stay forever. So you have a niche, and you have people who are staying there for a while, and people are actually competing to get into a property. That's kind of my thing. So, you know, you can go on vacation and actually earn money?

Because while you're out exploring new horizons, your home is sitting there, dark, silent, and wildly underemployed. And it could be making you extra cash. And Airbnb makes that possible with something called the co-host network. If you're away for a while, or you live far from your place,

you can hire a vetted local co-host with real hosting experience to help take care of everything. They handle guest messages. They prep your space, manage reservations, and they keep things running smoothly so you don't have to constantly check your phone between activities. That means fewer logistics, less stress,

and more time actually enjoying your trip, instead of thinking about what's happening back home. You can relax, knowing guests are taking care of, and your place is in good hands. So instead of your home just existing in the dark, it can be quietly earning its keep while you're off making memories somewhere else. You travel, your house works, everyone's happy.

Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. Wouldn't it be great if your house? house plants paid rent while you were out of town? I mean, they've got the whole place to themselves, lots of sunlight, zero responsibilities. But no, they just sit there waiting for someone to spray them with some cool mist like a bunch of leafy loafers.

But guess what? Your home actually could be earning you money while you're not there. Airbnb has a great feature called the co-host network, which makes hosting your home so easy. If you live far from your property or are away for extended periods, you can hire a local co-host to take care of the hosting for you. These co-hosts are vetted locals who already have experience hosting on Airbnb.

A co-host can handle all the details like messaging guests, creating your host space, and managing reservations. So everything runs smoothly. It's a practical way to earn a little extra money, maybe even some cash toward your next trip. Plus, you get to share your place with someone traveling to your area while you're off making memories somewhere else. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. Managing properties can feel like a full-on circus. You're juggling vendors, tracking payments, chasing approvals across multiple properties,

and maybe a few HOAs, all while trying to keep tenants happy and owners confident. One delay can throw everything off, and suddenly your day is all clean up, no progress. That's why hundreds of property managers rely on bill to streamline their finances. Bill for property management lets you add all your properties, assign permissions, pay bills, and receive payments quickly and efficiently without the usual bottlenecks. It syncs with platforms like QuickBooks, Zero, NetSuite, and Sage Intact, so your accounting stays aligned. You can automate bulk payments across properties and HOAs.

Choose flexible payment methods like same-day ACH, international wires, card or check, and set custom roles in approval policies. There's even a dedicated bill inbox for each property to keep everything organized. Ready to simplify your workflow, book your free demo at bill.com slash bigger pockets, and get a $100 Amazon gift card. That's bill.com slash bigger pockets.

Well, yeah, I was going to say, why don't we go to the, I want to know how you're investing out of the area. Because, right, if we started this talking about the, if you live in an expensive area, it's hard to invest. I mean, there is the appreciation play you can get into. But how, I mean, how did you get into Wisconsin? I mean, what made you say, I'm going to go invest over in Wisconsin? I mean, how's that happen?

I actually, I listened to your show with Moran and also with British Schmidt. And they're the ones who actually gave me the idea of Midwest in the general area. Okay. My parents live in Chicago. So I was thinking, okay, what is feasible for me in the Midwest? I got to have somebody who's kind of on the ground to help me with this whole thing. And I just kind of drew a two-hour driving radius around where my parents' property is. And I said, I'm going to look at any city in this two-hour radius so that they can help me out with it.

And so I did spot about four or five different cities that I was looking into. and I did a whole bunch of groundwork in the beginning, kind of contacting realtors, learning about markets. So I narrowed it down to a few different cities. And then I made a trip out there to see my parents. And we drove to every single town and spent a consider around the time there doing research. And Milwaukee just happens to work for me. Cool. So I love that that you did that, right?

That you got on a plane, you flew to Chicago, you went and visited those cities. You did the boots on the groundwork needed. It wasn't just like, I'm going to pick this random city because somebody on a podcast told me it was a good idea. and now I'm going to go buy a bunch of property side on the scene because I heard somebody said that they're, you know, making money there. I mean, it was a good podcast. Don't get me. That bigger pocket show is pretty decent, but you know. Indeed. Indeed. It's fun to go to Midwest. It's so different in California. And they talk so cute. They said a boat. A boat. It was so cute. You should hear my mom talk. My mom's in Minnesota. My whole family's in Minnesota. So, you know, they all have

the cute little Swedish accents. Oh, that's cute. Yeah, it's cute. Yeah. So you're investing overseas, quote unquote, you're investing at a distance in Wisconsin. It might as well be overseas, right? Might as well be. There's Wisconsinites. No, I don't know. I have nothing

bad to say about them. I have a lot bad to say about Packer fans, but we're not going to go there today. That's fine. That's not my thing. Although, you know, this is the show following the World Series. Yeah. And it would, it would, I've got to say

my Mets lost. They did. Congratulations to the Kansas City Royals. They emerged victorious. They did not win. We lost. But anyway, we referenced it last show, and I've got to bring it back up.

I want to circle back to a really obvious fact. You are female, correct? Last time I checked, yes. So, no, I mean, listen, we try to get. We try to be as balanced as we can. Like guys, gals, you know, we have a hard time getting gals, ladies, women to come on the show. I don't know why.

But I think it's super important to talk to you guys because when we look at our demographics on bigger pockets, when you can look at the overall demographic of the real estate investor, it's very, very heavily weighed in favor of guys, of men. So, you know, I would not be doing my job if I were not to ask you about investing. as a woman, you know, if you have run across or run into any situations where, you know, you face challenges because of your sex. I did not expect to go there, to be honest, the whole gender issue and the feminism kind of thing. But I guess, yeah, I mean, I'm a stay-at-home mom. Well, okay, technically I'm a real estate professional for tax purposes, but I stay home with my kids, right? I've

get to a little ones. Right. Just the cutest kids in the world, pretty much, ever. They sound it. Did you hear that? Anyway, so I have young kids. They're under five, and I'm busy, you know, with just taking care of kids. And buying 51 units.

Yeah. Exactly, exactly. As a female, I guess just the arrangement we have in our family kind of enables us to have somebody who, well, myself, dedicated full time to doing this thing that we want to achieve. And husband works for a tech company down in Silicon Valley. I used to be an engineer myself. That was kind of my profession by training. And I quit when I got babies.

And I stayed home and we're doing this full time. Well, I was doing this full time. So it worked out okay. A lot of the people do ask me about it. I'm actually kind of working on that pitch. You know, people ask me, what do you do? I don't know what to say sometimes. I don't know.

A real estate investor. I would say, yeah. I said, oh, are you an agent then? My wife says the same thing. She really struggles with that question. Well, what do you do? Because she doesn't have a, you know, she doesn't go to Starbucks anymore. She used to work at Starbucks.

You know, she manages their rental properties. But she's not an official property manager. She's a landlord, right? She really struggles with that every time somebody asks her what she does. It's like, uh, well, I have rentals and, you know, I don't know. It's weird. Like, she's working on that pitch as well. Yeah.

The landlord question doesn't get good answers though, usually. It doesn't get good responses. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you're a landlord. And that's the problem. That is the problem. That's why we do what we do.

That is one of the reasons the bigger pockets exists. Like, we want to change that perception. I mean, you're a stay-at-home mom that's buying rental properties to take care of your family. I mean, oh, clearly you're a horrible person, landlord. I mean, it's so silly. It's so silly. All right. So back to this female thing.

I mean, beyond being a stay-at-home mom and, you know, the actual ability to answer that question, Have you faced any issues, challenges, or it's just kind of part for the course. This is what I do. And the reason I ask these questions is this. There are a lot of women who listen to this show. And at the end of the day, I think we need more female role models in this industry. And so you being a successful real estate investor who's running the portfolio, not your husband. He's not doing it.

He's out, you know, gallivanting at the Silicon Valley. Yeah, so you're busy doing this. I mean, so you are a role model. And so, you know, we've got you on the show. There's tens of thousands of thousands of people and thousands of them are women listening to the show. What would you say to the women who are on the fence saying, you know, this is a man's world?

I don't think that's true. I think it depends on the personality, right? Yeah. I think one of the biggest things I think is important in this industry is that you have to be good at math. and you've got to do your cash flow analysis. That's like the first thing that you need to learn how you make your money. And you can be a woman or a man to do that.

And I really haven't faced any challenges, not predominant ones anyway as a woman. But I mean, I'll get talked down to every once in a while by the old timers. You know, you don't know anything. Get your husband on the phone or something like that. I'm like, well, I am the husband. This is my government. So you work with me, okay? So I've had that a couple times.

But it's really not a big issue these days. I've noticed there's predominantly male hosts or guests on your podcast. I counted them actually the other day. I think it was less than 10 women. We honestly asked equal numbers. We just get shot down by a lot more women. It's like high school again. So I don't know. Speak to yourself because I didn't have the nerve to even ask. Okay. That's yeah. Yeah, you know, we just pretend. All right. So let's go back to your out of the area investing because, again, there's a lot of people listening who want to do that. I got just a few questions to ask you like the basic. How do you find them when you live out of the area? How do you finance them and how do you manage them? Like those, the three questions, I guess, I'll fire all three at one time to you.

So I fly out to my properties quarterly. So every three, four months or so, I mean, I do a family trip too, right? My parents haven't to live there. But I do go look at it. them and I do want to make sure that everything's going the right direction. So did you look for the yeah, do you go there? Do you look for properties while you're there in person to go buy or do you buy them all online? I buy them all through.

I have a pipeline set up. You know, it took a few iterations to get the right people to work for me. So I have realtors and a property management company that I really like to work with. Actually, they're a husband and wife team too that I just kind of ended up, happened that way. But we went through, went through like both and bowls of realtors before before we find the right ones that works for us.

Yeah. And we find rehabbers or people who are contractors who does our work for rehabbing. I, we constantly kind of have little meetings kind of autocorrect what's going on and make sure we're on the same page. As I answer your question. No, that was good. What about financing? I mean, that's kind of how you manage. That's how you do the contractor stuff.

And you know, how you have realtors. So you're obviously buying on the MLS, correct? Yes. And then what about financing? Are you just doing typical bank loans? I mean, people always say you get shot down after 10 loans. You can't get any more. What are you doing?

Well, we had equity and we had savings. We are kind of, we save a lot. We save about 75% for our income. Nice. So we have, you know, we're ready for it for when once the opportunity is there. And then after we use all that up, we do the burr and we did that for a few times with portfolio lenders. So we bundled up, you know, a few properties together to kind of. took some equity out.

And then after that, I actually, I am currently working with private lender, a particularly investor who was interested in investing with me. I didn't really look for it as family, but it kind of just worked out that way. Nice. And so it was great. For those who don't know what you're talking about, the Burr strategy, just in case you've never listened to the show before, and you haven't heard me talking about that. That's where you buy a property, you rehab it, you rent it out, and then you refinanced it.

And you pull your cash back out. So you were basically, you would buy properties, get it rented out, get it fixed up, looking good. and then you can get your money back so you can go and do it again. And you're using a portfolio lender to do that. That's correct. And what are the portfolio lender for those who don't know? Profile lender is pretty much banks that manage their own portfolio, which means their own cash reserves.

Instead of going to Fannie Mae or Ferdimac, which is the federal reserve for their mortgage funding source, they actually use their own money, which means that they're a lot more lenient on how they want to structure their loans. Okay. Okay. And you, I want to ask you one more thing about managing the manager, managing the property manager. That seems like it would be different. I mean, I have a property manager who's terrible who lives in my area. I've just had terrible experiences with my rental properties with her. By the way, really quickly, you're going to make fun of me for not firing her yet? A and B, it's astounding to me that you have not yet had your property manager listen to the podcast. And I think maybe she does. I think you haven't because you're definitely afraid that she's going to find out how much trash you talk about her.

I do talk about it. I know. I know. I don't want her to listen. No, I mean, like, it's tough to manage your property manager.

I mean, granted, I gave her two properties. One of them burned, so it's not even rented anymore. We're dealing with insurance on it. So it's 50-fifty right now and, you know,

I'll take care of the rest later, which I got more fun stories, but I'm not going to go into them. But, yeah, how do you manage your property manager? What do you do? Do you call them all the time?

Do they just do things right the first times? you don't need to bug them? I used to call them every day. You know, now I talk to them probably like once every two, three days because we're still buying, you know, gradually. But yeah, so I guess there's a huge trust factor there too. I've gone through a lot of property managers too, and they were just, you know, they charged a lot and they didn't do the job.

I was hired a property manager that took a month to rent out something that was totally rent already, a month, a month. So it was unacceptable. But this particular company I'm working, They're doing funny faces for those people who can't see it. I can't concentrate. Anyway, so these people are great, though. I really love my property managers.

So I talk to a lot of people on the phone. So it doesn't just come easier. It's not like I'm lucky or anything. I probably talked to like 100 property managers on the phone. Yeah. Before I found the one who was just like, you know what? You're it. What stood out for that one that was it?

was the one thing that stood out for them that made you say okay because you know a hundred people that's a lot well okay this needs to come with some background i used to be a engineering sales that sells heavy whatever equipment right so i'm pretty good at telling apart bullshit with truth and these people didn't lie to me on the phone that was honestly the reason when when i hear lies i can detect them and these people don't lie to me on the phone they were very honest they were straightforward and they weren't the cheapest one, actually. They weren't. But I believe that to have a good team, you need to feed them. Well, sounds bad. But you need to make it a win-win situation. Everyone's got to make money in this thing. And you get what you pay for. So that's kind of my thing. I heard them. I'm like,

you're it. That's great. Trust is huge. I love it. That is. Well, cool. Well, hey, let's shift gears real quick. I know we could probably talk to you forever. But I think we could. I know. Let's shift gears. and we're going to move over to the world famous fire round. It's time for the fire round. All right, the fire round. These questions come direct out of the bigger pockets forums, and we're going to fire them right at you. Number one, what are the pros and cons of buying a short sale?

Somebody asked, what are the pros and cons of buying a short sale? I'm not sure if you've done short sales, but that was one of the questions we grabbed. So what are the pros and cons of buying a short sale? I've made offers on short sales. and they never really kind of come back timely. It takes forever. You can get a really great deal every once in a while,

but they do take a very long time typically. But sometimes it takes a couple of months, and I've had ones that has been lingering, still lingering, and it made off in 2012. Yeah, I got one of those two, right? Every like six months they're like, are you still interested? I'm like, yeah, I'm still here. Yeah, exactly.

All right. Cool. That's good. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. Next, next question. How much, and I think you kind of answered this, but how much cash flow? No, you answered it back in the day. Today, how much cash flow for rental property would make it worthwhile to you? So what is your criteria as far as cash flow is concerned today? 15% return on investment. Okay. Okay. Got it. Actually, 15% net. So if you finance it, your return investment is more closer to 40, maybe. Nice. And I don't buy anything under 15. Okay. So 15, if buy an al cash.

Yes. Okay. Got it. So essentially sort of like, I know. 15 cap, but you don't use cap for single family houses, but same kind of concept. All right. Yeah. Cool.

Okay. And which is, of course, you can get more easily in the Midwest and you're going to find in San Francisco. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Cool. All right.

Next one. Are homes built in 1900 worth investing in? Should I even consider a house built in 1900? Like over a hundred years old? Yeah. I personally wouldn't just because it's probably on some sort of historic registry or something like that and they cost a lot more to remodel them. But in my portfolio, I personally like wrenches built in the 1950s.

It's just they've treated me well and that's kind of my niche. So I'm not going to, I don't personally. I think my oldest one is 1894. I think my oldest property. 1894. I think I think my fiveplex is 1894, I think. but yeah I mean it's just a nice old house but yeah I mean was it any difference in like

the amount of maintenance you have to do in terms of if that one is 1894 which I'm thinking it is there's like no maintenance on that one but it's been cared for over the years and that's what really matters I think more than anything is whether it was cared for over those hundred years and that's hard to tell so I yeah I generally don't advise people buying them that old but you can you can do it so all right Josh

yeah my brother's got a 100 plus year old house that apparently the Underground Railroad kind of went through it or around it. I think they've got tunnels under the home. It's on the historic register, and it's an absolute nightmare. It's like the money pit, if you guys remember that Tom Hanks movie. But yeah, anyway, all right, last question in the fire round. How can I find out what the differential is between the value of a distressed property and the retail value of SFRs in a particular area?

So basically, you know, if I find out, if I find out, find a distressed property, how do I know it's distressed versus SFR versus just a standard retail property? I think it's kind of an obvious question. So I'll just throw that home run to you. How do I know it's distressed? To me, it doesn't matter. I mean, I'm looking for 15 cap. So 15 cap. If you know me 15 cap, I don't care if it's your grandma selling it or the bank. To me, it doesn't make a difference. Well, real quick, on that 15%, I want to run back to that real quickly. When you say that, Let's just say, for example, you find a property that you could buy for $10,000, right? But it needs $20,000 with a work.

So now you got 30 into it. That's the number you're basing your 15% return on. Is that 30, right? Not the 10. Total, yeah. Total investment, not just the purchase price. Okay, perfect. That's what I thought.

Cool. Okay. Well, that is the end of the fire round. So why don't we close the thing up by heading over to our world famous. Famous Four. All right. The Famous Four, these questions. questions are asked of every guest, and I'd love to know your thoughts. And I know you listen

to our show, so you probably know what's coming. Number one, what is your favorite real estate-related book? I don't read about real estate. That's the truth. I thought about it. I wanted to sound smart, but I don't read real estate. I like to re-sci-fi fiction. So what happens is the husband reads it, and he gives me like a Reader's Digest. So your husband who doesn't do any real estate is reading the real estate books while you're reading Larry Niven and other fun things. Yes, I like to read the Martians and stuff like that. But I do want to mention that the biggest, the most influential idea I got from, you know, wealth management, real estate book is probably Kiyosaki's book,

where one part he mentioned that there's two types of, oh, there's two ways to spend money. You can either buy a liability or you can buy investments. So liability is things that you spend money on, that you have to spend more money to maintain it or investment, which means you spend money and it gives you money in return. So that has really kind of shaped my spending habits. Nice. And that's Rich Dad Porta had the book, correct? Yes, correct. Perfect.

What's the best sci-fi book, by the way, just to add to our famous four. We'll stack it because you're a sci-fi fan and I am too. Dune. I tried to read it. I couldn't get into it. Yeah, I couldn't read that book. I'll try it again. I saw the movie when I was a kid, never fully watched it.

The David Lynch one? You know, the scary one with the big giant worm that goes and like... Yeah. Well, yeah, the first three quarters of the book is hard to get into, but then the next six books is just fabulous. Maybe I'll keep trying. I'll keep trying. All right.

You don't read real estate. What about business? Do you read business books at all? No, I read the Bigger Pockets Forum a lot. Nice. That's a good business book. Yeah, it is. It's interesting to see people's ideas.

They got tons of good stuff on there. Fair enough. Fair enough. What about hobbies? What do you do for fun? You got your two little rug rats running around? What do you guys do? We go to parks a lot and then wait around a lot for the kids to kind of finish what they're doing.

Sounds very exciting. Yeah, I, I don't know, sounds weird. I like to do math, mathematical analysis. That's just my thing. I love math. I do. And it sounds really nerdy. Nerd alert.

We should have T-shirts, Josh, to say something like, I love math. I love math. Really? Yeah, real estate investors are math nerds mostly. Or science. You know, I like to read science magazines, like Discovery or Scientific America or something like that. Fantastic.

Cool. All right. My last question of the day, NAS, like Jazz, what do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from those who give up, fail, or never get started? I think doing the ground work is obviously one of the prerequisites, but also, you know, as real estate investors, things are difficult. Nothing was going to be easy, but it's all about how you can figure out a way to make it happen, right? So the people who are actually trying to think of it in a way to make what they want happen happen are the successful. And then the ones who are just like, oh, you know, when it's too difficult or, you know, it's impossible.

I don't want to do it. There's always a way to do it, and you kind of just have to get in there, spend the time, and, you know, get on with it. Cool. Hey, can I ask you one more quick question? I know it's not part of the famous four. I just popped in my head and I want to ask you. When did you, you said you listened to the Bigger Pockets podcast, that one with Mayeron, where he talked about invested in Milwaukee. How many properties did you have before that?

And then how many have you bought since that? Uh, were you just at the four before that? No, I probably had a couple in Milwaukee. And I think I bought something like probably 10, 10 doors in 2014 and the rest in 2015. So this year's been a big year for us. Okay. So you had a few beforehand. And then when you heard that podcast, that's what really made you commit to more.

That's true. I don't want breaking rights. I can be like, yeah. So what you're trying to say here is Bigger Pockets is responsible for you having this kick-ass portfolio. Entirety. And for me and my children's future. There we go. Wow, put the pressure on.

You guys are doing great stuff up here. You know, I really enjoy the shows. Oh, that's great. Hey, Naz, where can people find out more about you? Where can they find you? Bigger Pockets is probably the biggest place. Perfect. Perfect.

Awesome. All right. Well, listen, it's absolutely been a pleasure, a whole heck of a lot of fun. And we definitely appreciate having you coming on our show. I can't even say things correctly. But we're definitely glad you decided to join us. and we will look forward to seeing you on the site. Glad to be here.

All right. Thank you, Naz. Bye. Take care. Take care. Bye. All right, guys, that was Nas Wang. Big thanks to Naz.

She's awesome. She is rocking it, man. She is. She is doing really, really well. She's definitely passed me up. And pretty soon she's going to pass up like surge and the rest of the world. Oh, challenge. I know.

Yeah, but she doesn't want, I mean, that's the coolest thing. That is cool, right? She doesn't want to. She doesn't need to. she's not in it for any kind of like, hey, I want to be the biggest. I want to be the best. I mean, she's building a portfolio exactly for her own purpose, which is to just kind of have enough property to live off.

That's fantastic. Yep. I love it. I love it. So, yeah, definitely. You know, it's something I've been thinking a lot more about lately. You know, like we talk about to guys like Grant Cardone, who's like, you know, 10x your stuff and get a million properties and make millions of dollars.

And then this is kind of the other end of the skills, you don't necessarily need that. You know, I was talking with Chad Carson, who was on the podcast a few weeks ago, but me and him were just talking the other day about this concept that, you know, we all get into real estate investing for financial freedom. But then most people that get into real estate end up just like getting back into this race to achieve something. And then, you know, 50 years down the road, they're like, what the heck did I just waste 50 years of my life doing? Like, and then they remember, oh, yeah, when I was a kid, I just want a financial freedom.

And so, like, why not remember that right now? And yeah, I thought that was just kind of cool philosophy. Yeah, I think it's awesome. Cool. All right, guys. Well, listen, thanks so much for listening. Obviously, this is the Bigger Pockets podcast. Obviously.

Hopefully you guys enjoyed it. Show 148. Check out the show notes of BiggerPockets.com slash show 148. And if you have any questions for NAS, I'll leave them for her there. Otherwise, thanks for listening. Please spread the word. Let people know about the Bigger Pockets podcast. Let them know about the Bigger Pockets website.

Tell people, share us on Facebook, Twitter, Gplus, LinkedIn, whatever social networks you use. Share our content. Share the site. Invite your friends to join you on the site. Build your network on Bigger Pockets. It's a great place to be. Thanks for being a part of our world, and we'll see next week at show 149. I'm Josh Dorkin. Sign it off.

You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer.

The show is produced by Ian K, copywriting is by Calico content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free news letter, please visit www.biggerpockets.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk. So use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. Bigger Pocket's LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential, or other

damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.