BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 154: Finding Incredible Deals to Flip or Rent from 3,000 Miles Away with Bob Couture

Episode Date: December 24, 2015

Finding deals in your own backyard can be tough — but today we’re talking to a guest who finds incredible deals from across the country! Bob Couture joins us today to tell us his inspiring story of starting out with several “failed” flips, finding a partner, using crowdfunding, and much more. This show is jam packed with actionable tips and tricks for real estate investing, whether the deals are in your backyard or across the world! In This Episode We Cover: Where Bob is from and where he currently invests Why Bob’s strategy is investing at a distance The importance of a “boots on the ground” partnership How he got started investing in real estate The details of his first deal How he became an accidental landlord How to put properties under a blanket loan How a bad deal can end up a great flip! The number of flips he has done Things to know when investing with a partner How to set up a direct mail business Who he is targeting in his marketing campaigns Why you might hire people to do driving for dollars His take on getting a real estate license How to find people you can trust Tips for overcoming the fear of starting out How he inspects properties Tips for making deals over the phone How he finances deals A discussion on crowdfunding And SO much more! Links from the Show Be a Guest on the Podcast FundThatFlip.com Books Mentioned in this Show The Millionaire Real Estate Investor by Gary Keller The Book on Rental Property Investing by Brandon Turner Secrets of Closing the Sale by Zig Ziglar The Miracle Morning by Hal Elrod Connect with Bob Bob’s BiggerPockets Profile Bob’s Website Bob’s LinkedIn Email Bob Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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That's Indeed.com slash rookie. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 154. But I think that's the beauty of real estate, right? It is, I couldn't sell it, but I have other strategies, other exits to it. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio. simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com.

Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorkin host to the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host, Mr. Brandon Turner. And a very merry Christmas to you, Mr. Turner. Merry Christmas to you too, Mr. Josh Dorkin. How you don't? And how happy Hanukkah.

Oh, that's, I remember. But I know it's passed. I know. Belated. Belated. But, you know, in my own defense, it is currently several weeks before Christmas that we're recording this. So Hanukkah has not actually begun yet.

Am I correct? Wow. Am I doing it? Do whatever you can to dig yourself out. Take it. This is our third or fourth take of this. And, you know, we can't get it right. So.

I just become more. racist every time we're unbelievable. Hey, everybody, thank you for listening. We're really excited to have you here today. We've got a really cool show, and we're going to get to it in just a minute. Before we do, let's get to today's quick tip, tip, quick tip. Today's quick tip is, you guys, it's the holidays. Take a day off.

Enjoy the day with your family. And if you're listening to this one, it's not the holidays, I don't know, take the day off today. That's a good quick time. You know, we all got to take some kind of time off. I'm guilty of never doing it. So maybe I'll listen and actually follow my own direction. I know.

I heard a keynote speech this summer. It was by a guy named Grant Baldwin. And Grant was talking about, like, actually schedule time off for, like, you to take time off. Like, don't just assume I'm going to take some time off in the future. I need to have time off. He's like, go to your calendar right now, mark a big X, and say, I'm not doing anything that day. And then when somebody calls you up and said,

hey, hey, can we hang out on Saturday, be like, no, I can't. They're going to be like, well,

what are you doing? Oh, I'm not doing anything. They're like, well, can we hang out? No, I'm not doing anything.

Right. Yeah, like his point with, yeah, make time in your schedule to not do anything, to, you know, just be with your family

or even by yourself and just, you know, not work. So that's a good quick tip, Josh, wait to think on your feet. There you go. There you go.

On my toes, on my toes. Well, all right, guys, today we've got a great real estate investor to chat with. Before I move forward really, really quickly, we want to thank everybody, everybody for leaving us ratings and reviews. This is the last show of 2015, and we're super excited. All right, today's guest is Bob Couture. No, he's not related to the MMA fighter. Or Juicy. Or his good friend, Juicy. Bob is a real estate investor living in Southern California and investing in Massachusetts. And Bob's got some really cool processes that he uses to actually do that. He doesn't do any kind of turnkey stuff, but he's actually built a system that works for him.

It's great, and perhaps it'll work for you. So pay attention and let's bring on Bob. Welcome to the show, man. It's good to have you here. Great. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it should be fun today.

You are our most bald guest we've had yet, so that's exciting. All right. Wow, way to, wait a way to just start there. You know, I got to start there with the, yeah, you're also probably the most fit. I don't know. You look like you could take me in a fight. I might have to now after that. Yeah.

Okay, so his address is. So, Bob, how's it going? Yeah, how are you doing today? I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Yourself? Both, yeah. All well, all well.

Where are you in Washington and in Denver? That is correct. All well here, yeah. The winter's setting. Where are you located? Let's stop talking, Brian. I'm in Los Angeles. Oh, nice.

Nice. What part? Hermosa Beach. Really? Oh, Hermosa's awesome. Yeah, nice. So is that where you do your real estate? No.

I invest in the greater sprinkled area of Massachusetts. Oh, really? So let's talk about that. Are you from Mass or are you? How did all that come about? Yeah, I'm originally from West Springfield, Massachusetts. I moved out to California after college. But then when I decided to get into the real estate piece,

when I looked around and what I could do in Los Angeles, with the money I had, I said, well, I know Massachusetts. I had a good support network there. I grew up renovating houses and doing a painting, interior, exterior painting with my dad as a kid. And he was looking for some projects to do. So that's how it kind of all got started back there. Saw what I had and where I could do it.

And I understood Massachusetts. I understood that area. So I figured I'd go there and invest. There you go. Can you let us know a little bit about who you are? I mean, like, what do you do? What's your investment strategy? So people have an idea of what you're doing from a long distance.

Yeah, sure. I'm half of S&C homebuyer. So my other half, my partner is Justin Simmons. So he's the boots on the ground. So he lives in that area. He has his construction supervisors license. He manages the projects, gets the rehab numbers. Here out in Sunny, California, I burn up the phone and get the, get them fill up his calendar, get some leads there.

We do a lot of direct mail. We also network with a lot of agents. So I try to get them in front of a lot of houses and then I'll do the negotiation. So my piece of it is the acquisitions and dispositions part. So bringing those deals to the. table and then and going from there. Okay. Cool. Let's take it back to the beginning. You had talked about you grew up renovating houses and doing painting and stuff with your dad. Was he a contractor? Painting contractor, yeah. And then went on to do some remodeling.

Okay. So you were kind of raised up through this culture. What kind of triggered it for you? Like, hey, I want to start doing this. I want to get into the business. I kind of joke that. I was the last one to know that I was supposed to get into real estate. I grew up in that industry on the contractor side. I think my father just expected me to kind of take on that business, but I went off to college, went on to do other things, worked in corporate America, did some time with the military. And then once I came back from a deployment,

went back to a nine to five job, and I just couldn't find myself. And I was trying to figure out, what do I want to do with my life? And my wife kept telling me real estate, her families in real estate, commercial real estate. And then I thought when they said, get into real estate, it was being an agent. And that didn't seem very appealing to me.

And then this world of real estate investing opened up and it's like, there it is. So how did that happen? Tell us about the beginnings. That was, I came back from a deployment from Afghanistan. I went back to my job at an aerospace and defense company. It was about six months into it. And I was like, I can't, this is not for me. This wasn't what I wanted to do.

anymore. And I was talking to my father and he's like, it was winter, so things are usually slow. He's like, well, let's do a project together. Let's look at a, you know, find a house and do something like that. It's something he always wanted to do. And then it was born from there. Nice. So what was that first project? What was the first deal? It was a colonial in Springfield Mass. It was, this house was, I think we got it for 120, 125, put about another. 25 into it and then tried to sell it at the 180 190 mark. And it sat on the market and sat on the market. It sat on the market.

And it never sold. I had that gone on to two other projects. You know, we started it too high. And then I became an accidental landlord from there. I decided, well, I'm not going to sell it for a loss. I think I can try to make it a rental. And we went from there. Beautiful house and everything.

But I learned some good lessons out of that one. Did you ultimately sell that property or do you have it in your portfolio? No, it's probably one of my best producing rentals right now. Oh, right on. All right. So you get in, you think you're going to flip this house and you get stuck with it. But you were able to hold on, obviously, and reap the benefits of the property long term. You said you did two projects thereafter.

Were those flips and were they successful or what happened with those? No, went on to another one and rehab that one. And again, that one wasn't selling. And then we were coming into the winter. And so am I going to hold it for another couple of months or get a renter in there? And so I was kind of doing a dual strategy, had it for sale and trying to do for rent and take whatever came first. Yep. Yeah.

So on the pricing, obviously you got the pricing wrong in the first one. Sounds like you got it wrong on the second one. I'm assuming at some point in time you realize, hey, I can't keep overpricing it. Or my comps are screwed or something's wrong here. Like, what am I doing wrong? What was this like aha moment that, you know, your pricing wasn't exactly correct? Well, on the first one was I was taking the advice of the real estate agent. And where I knew, I knew better.

But when I could be leaving $20,000 or $30,000 on the table, I'm like, well, that's the expert. I'm going to go with that. The second one, that was about, I thought I had the price right. It just, it was not the right neighborhood for it. So I think comps-wise, it was great. It was just the type of house. And so I learned from that. It was a sub-1,000 square foot house.

And just that was just not ideal. Great rental, but yeah, I screwed up on that one. And then I started becoming more and more conservative on those. I'm on my pricing on my ARV. Yeah. So in a way, what you kind of, I mean, you kind of became an accent on to a landlord, but you figured that stuff out. A lot of people I know they try to flip houses, especially if they don't sell.

I mean, I know people that just give up. They just say, you know what, I'm done. You know, I quit. I like the fact that you said, you know what, I'm going to figure this out. We'll make it a rental. Maybe we'll sell it something in the future. I mean, do you have plans for selling it when the market is better? I mean, the market's probably better now than it was then, am I right?

And how long are you going to hold that property for? Well, I've used both of those properties to put into a, a blanket loan to be able to invest in others. And so, so I'll have these for, for, for, uh, five years. Okay. Or I could go and sell them, but there, there's some penalties with that. But I think that's the beauty of real estate, right? It is, I couldn't sell it, but I have other strategies, other exits, uh, to it where if it was a stock, it's either sell it or hold and, and, and that's about it. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I love that you're, you know, your mind thinks that way. That's cool. I think that, you know, it's one of the traits that I think is most important for a

new investor is just that being able to figure it out. We talked about that last week or the week before on the podcast here, about just that trade of figuring it out when you're not sure what to do. So, you know, kudos to you on that. So your first few deals were those failed flips. I'm assuming you eventually got better at flipping. Am I right? No, no, we're still doing that. So why did we book you on the show? So tell us about your first successful flip. That happened to be the one that I did not want to flip at all. I got this house. I was doing another one at the Cape, so that's on the other side of the very end of the state. So I was kind of back and forth in Massachusetts.

I'm bouncing from Western Mass to Eastern Mass. And then I get this house from a website lead. And I didn't want to flip it. I was trying to wholesale it. And then no one was biting. It wasn't a great wholesale deal, but I know there was some room to do some work on it. And this is a house where I learned. about that you don't have to,

don't over rehab it. I did the, the least amount to it, and it was one offer, one sale, it was the quickest thing, and it was the past one to date. And the great thing out of this, too,

and, and, you know, great things happen from some bad experiences. This seemed to be like a really bad deal going in, and it ended up being a great flip, and I got to meet my business partner, because I tried to wholesaling him, him the deal.

And then we got to, talking and just, you know, found out that we're both like-minded guys and then, and then realized we were the pieces of each other's business that were, that we're missing. That's cool. That's cool. So how many flips have you done total now with your partner? With my partner, we're in our 12th one together. And then each of us did five, five each before partnering up.

Okay. Okay. So you're figuring the stuff out. That's cool. I want to dive a little bit into this idea of finding the deals before we go too much further. We talk about finding, financing, all that. but you mentioned direct mail.

And we haven't talked about that on the show here in a while. It's been a lot of episodes since we talked about that. So can we dive into your direct mail business a little bit, especially because of the fact that you live across the country from where you're actually doing the work. So it shows that people who are living in L.A. or San Francisco or whatever could potentially partner with somebody in another area that does the boots on the groundwork. Hold on.

Sure. And before you go into that, Bob, I'm just curious. if you didn't have that that personal knowledge of Western Mass yourself, would you feel comfortable investing there with your partner or not? No. No, not on the offset because when we first partner up, we didn't know each other. So, I mean, I rely on him a great deal about his knowledge of that area. But, you know, that relationship has taken a while and that trust is developing. So, no, I'd probably have a lot of trouble with that. Right on, right on. Yeah, and so that's something that would just come over time.

And I guess the real quick question is, if you're looking to, you know, for the listeners, yeah, I don't want to lead people to think like, hey, you just need to find a partner who's an expert in an area and get into bed with them. Because, you know, it's kind of hard. There's like a romance that comes before getting into bed with people. So, you know, I guess my personal belief is you should not just jump into bed with somebody and expect them to be the expert. You have to feel them out. Make sure you kind of feel comfortable with the area and with them before you do that. Would you agree? Oh, absolutely.

And I'll add on to, I still go back. I go to Massachusetts once a month. One, two, I think it's important to be on the ground there to visit with my partner, also to network with our, our, our, our, bankers, our private lenders, and, you know, it's not, shouldn't just be that guy out in California. I want to be on the ground and meet the contractors too and our A team. And, um, and so I think that part is really important. The beauty of it for me is my family is over there. So I, I get to go back for my business and I get to, you know, be with my parents and my sisters and, and visit everyone. So I try to create my lifestyle around, around this business. And so it's right out great.

Cool. Cool. Cool. I like, I, I like, Let's get to the direct mail stuff. Yeah. So, yeah, I just want to know, I mean, like, what are you doing for direct mail? What does it look like? What kind of letters are you sending out? Is it postcards? I mean, what kind of, what's the specifics look like?

Yeah, now we're, it's much more branded on our mail campaign. I think if you had on, in the past, Tucker Merri Hugh, and he's got the, like, the deal finders academy. And so we've kind of styled it after some of those things. We've done some of our own. We've tested a lot of different things from postcards to branded mail to the yellow letters. And we're continuing to test and measure those things to see what works out. I find the branded pieces are better for us because the phone may not ring as much,

but when they do, we're all on the same sheet of music. You know, we know they know that I'm a home buying company and I want to buy their house. It's not Bob Couture wants to move his family into your house and trying to offer you something. And so I think that that's been working out for us. So you're not sending a piece of yellow lined paper that just says, you know, I wants to buy your houses or something like that. You know, you're actually sending like something nicer, like a letter. Yeah, absolutely.

Handwritten letter. And then we'll go through some different sequences. We'll send out a postcard just in case that if that gets returned to sender, that's less expensive for us. That's a good tip. Yeah. Then the second one will be a handwritten letter. and then we kind of move on from there.

There might be a printed letter as we go through, and then the last touch might be a postcard as well. I don't think, I don't know if it just never occurred to me, but that's a fantastic tip. I feel like it was just kind of casual for you, but I don't know, I never heard that before. Send out postcards first, and then you get to see who's going to be undeliverable,

and then you don't have to send to them the letters. Again, I don't know, I like that idea a lot. I just realized that about a week or two ago, as we're trying to figure out 2016 and doing the plan, And so that just came to me just recently. So what do you put in the letter? Well, forget what do you put in the letters? Who do you market to?

Who are you actually targeting with your campaigns? A lot of driving for dollar leads. And we'll also target absentee owners. I know that that's a very popular one. So we got most of our competition there. How do you mail driving for dollars people? I don't fully understand. Are you driving and then finding them

and then mailing them, or are you finding some list of... So we have some bird dogs, some interns that are driving, and then we'll mail those out. So they'll identify houses in some form of distress, take those addresses down. They'll do some research on the owner and the mailing address, and then we handle the mailing from here. Okay. Yeah.

All right, so, Bob, I have a question about this whole... I want to dive into the topic of having... other people do your driving for dollars. Because we talk a lot about driving for dollars. I mean, it's one of my favorite strategies. And, you know, but it takes time to do that. Obviously, if I'm going to go get in my car, that's not very scalable. I can't be, you know, analyzing deals if I'm driving for dollars.

I can't be doing a lot of things if I'm driving for dollars. So you mentioned you have other people doing this for you. How does that work? You know, do you pay them to do that? Do they get a commission? Do they wholesale it to you? Or how does that all work? So we have a set up in a couple of different tiers.

One, it's not paid by the hour. We're kind of exchanging services. So one is they're driving for dollars, creating that list that we're mailing out. So it doesn't cost them anything other than their time and their gas and all that. And then in return, we're offering them to take them on to walkthroughs on properties and showing them rehab costs of that. So they'll walk through with my partner, Justin.

He'll kind of take them through that piece because that's the part where we're finding newbies or new wholesalers don't understand those construction costs or those rehab costs. So that we think is a really good tradeoff. And then if that leak comes in, then there's a flat fee of, if I'm negotiating the sale, then we'll give them a referral fee. Or if it comes in and they feel like they're ready to kind of take on that negotiation, then they tell me what they want. They'll wholesale it back.

So we have the marketing piece in place. And then when it comes in, they decide which way they want to go. Are they ready to kind of take on that negotiation? If so, they create their own fee. If not, then there's a flat reform. That's cool. I love that for a couple reasons. One, I mean, it obviously frees up your time, so you don't have to be out there driving for dollars. And all those people that, I mean, every day I get emails from people that are like, how do I get started in real estate? How do I know what this stuff is?

How do I find a mentor? How do I do all these things? Like, it's such a good way for them to be able to learn as well. So it's like such a perfect, I guess, I know you can call it partnership or whatever, like symbiotic relationship or whatever you want to call it. I don't know. I think that's fantastic. So, yeah, I mean, and that's, is that you're like, you're, like, primary way do you think you're finding deals or is it more from the the list that you're buying or what would you say i think on that the on the driving for dollars it's taken a while so it's not the it's not the primary or our mailing is not the primary uh it's about a third of where our deals are coming from okay uh and then the driving for dollars piece is probably half of half of that

as well okay okay and then what else is the mLS is getting stuff with agents still or where would the rest of them come from oh for sure it's uh um is a piece, but specifically on the MLS, it's the REOs and short sales. And then our network is probably the other third. Referrals or with

attorneys or agents, things like that. Okay. Great. And you're a real estate agent, right? I do have my license. So use it to sell our properties. Got it. Got it. Do you find that helpful? Do you recommend other people do that? Do you get their license?

I think absolutely. For us, it works out great. One, it is the power of the MLS and having access to that. So we don't have to kind of wait around for an agent to view a property. So yeah, it works out great. And also it helps us, too, on the back end, on the disposition of the property that sale to keep a little bit of that commission in-house too. Okay. So here's a question about that driving for dollars. I know we're jumping all over the place a little bit, but going back to the people that are working with you, If somebody's listening to this show right now and they're new and they're a newbie and they want to do that kind of a job for somebody. They want to get out there and meet a guy like you.

How should they approach somebody like you? How are you going to take them seriously and actually want to help them find you deals? You know, how do you think they should approach you? I think it's our very first one was Matt Scott. And Matt was really good about, hey, I want to take you out for coffee, learn a little bit about the business. And he offered, I want an intern. And I want to learn what can I do for your business to help you? And he's kind of really kind of the catalyst to that whole internship program.

And he's still with us and kind of growing as our business grows too. So that's been really great. That's an exciting story. But for others, we've probably gone through about 20, 30 people that said that they wanted to do this. And then when they actually have to go out and drive or do something, they just fall off the face of the earth. thing. It's like, oh, this doesn't just happen or you're just not going to pay me to go and learn in this industry. So we've got a couple really quality folks now that are really trying to learn and grow their business and understand. But I think it starts off with that, but knowing that

you've got to give a little bit. And I think we might be at a point where we're going to ask for X amount of leads before we start investing some other time. And it sounds like a little cold, But when you go through about 20 or 30 people that want to learn and then they fall off the face of the earth and you're spending this time with them, it's tough. I want to give back. We want to give back. We started the real estate investing association to give back. But there's only so many hours in the day. And then you've got to filter through those that are serious and those that are not. Yeah.

Yeah. It's so true. So of the 20 or 30, how many actually ended up coming through and doing what they said they were going to do? three. Wow. Yeah. Well, 10%. I did a webinar last night and I said this exact thing.

I said out of everyone here, there's like, I don't know, there's like a thousand people there. I said out of a thousand people here, 90% of you will never take action on anything that we're talking about. You'll never buy a property. You'll never get out there. You're going to be too afraid. I was like 10% of you will actually do anything.

I find it on bigger pockets. I find it everywhere you go. It's like 10% of people actually do stuff. Even listen to this podcast. I bet 90% of people here are not going to invest in real estate. I hope to change that. I hope it's, you know, 80%, you know, 90% do. But, you know, that's just the fact that most people let fear or whatever it is stop them from actually taking action. So, you know, listen to Bob here. There's something else that this was kind of an informal kind of research on it. But I started polling some folks that got into real estate investing and actually did a deal. And I asked them to kind of think back, how long ago was it before you decided you were going to do this, then, then. then when you took action.

And almost all of them, it was about a year. So if I find someone that I just said, I just started, I decided, I think I'm going to start telling them, well, let me know how things go in six months or a year and I can help you from there. And if they're still around at that point, and I'll help them get to wherever they want to go. But I think the year mark is it. I think it takes that year to overcome that fear for whatever reason or get the ducks in a row

to be able to move on. Yeah. So in terms of somebody who's serious, right? Okay, you're saying it's a year, but I don't buy that. No offense to you. I think that's, you know, I get that that's how it's worked out, but there's got to be some other signs that somebody's serious than they've been around or they've thought about it for a year. So are there other traits that these people have shown? Have they done something in that year? What's going to happen in that time period? I don't think it's time alone, but what exactly has occurred for those users, those people in that time period, that makes them any different than the other ones. Can you think of anything? Yeah, a plan. Those that said, I'm going to buy a property by this date. This property looks like this. This is how I'm going to pay for it or finance. Those are the ones that you know are going to go. And then for us, on the intern shot side, it's those that are actually are producing the driving for dollars.

they have gone on to buy property, have gone on to do something else because they're interested in learning and getting there. But I think those that have that plan forward are the ones that are really interested. And you learn pretty quick. So what do you want to buy? Why are you interested in this industry? And when they're not too sure about that answer yet, or if that's not clear, it's going to take them a year for that picture to get clearer. So what's in that plan? I mean, you mentioned, I think you used the different words. but you mentioned criteria. I think the types of properties they want to buy,

you know, too bad, two bad, you know, between X and Y price, yada, yada. What else would somebody want to or need to have in this plan that they're putting together? Their support team in terms of knowing that they have maybe an attorney that in Massachusetts we use, attorneys not escrow agents, so having an attorney. So that support team.

an agent, the attorney, their contractors, the understanding their finances, what they want to buy and what that looks like. It's not, some say, I just want to buy, but then they're thinking of, well, I'll go into multifamily or I'll be a landlord or I want to flip. So understanding which flavor of real estate investing are they looking for. I think those pieces go into the plan.

what area. I've had one guy who he was kind of bouncing back and forth from from Boston area to the Western Mass area. And it's like, you mean, you got to pick one. Yeah. Cool. I like that. Cool. Cool. Yeah. I mean, to go back to the year thing, I mean, I know exactly what you're talking about in that, you know, there's so many people that, you know, maybe want to, like, they tell me they take me up for coffee. I used to go out to coffee with everybody who asked, like everybody, because I've like, yeah, sure, no more problem. And out of all the people I've ever gone to coffee with, I can think of like two people who ever bought a property. You know, like, and everybody else is still thinking about it or they're no longer in it anymore. And so I know

what you're saying. Like I kind of wanted to say, come back to me in a year. And if you're still interested, then I know you're serious. Because there's so many things in this life, right, that are exciting for a few weeks. I mean, for a while I wanted to do, you know, start this business or be part of this, or join this MLM. I didn't want to join an MLM. But, you know, people are always want to join these like things for like a few weeks or a month maybe. And then they get bored or they realize it's more work than they thought and they go on to something else. I want to, I don't want to like interact too deeply with people until after they're past the honeymoon phase, so that makes sense. Well, the shiny object portion. Yeah. So that makes perfect sense. All right. So you're doing

direct mail. You're marketing these letters. You get the phone call. You're the one answering the phone. So I want to talk about this a little bit because I'm selfish and I'm, you know, going to pick your brain because I want to do this. So I'm working with actually funny. My little brother's moving out to the Boston area. And so we've talked about whether or not we want to work together on real estate. He might want to flip a house. And so I said, well, maybe we can work together. You know, I'm on the East coast or West Coast. He's on the east. How do you guys work that? I mean, you answer phones, obviously. Does then, do you do all the negotiation until the end? And then you send in your partner to go inspect the property? Or how does that work between the two of you?

So I'm trying to get down to seeing what the least amount that they're going to accept for the property, the homeowner. And getting an understanding of what level of repair it may need. And then based on that, if we can find ourselves in the realm of, you know, 50 to 60, 70% of ARV, then it's about that that's the right time to deploy him to go to that house and walk through. Now, sometimes people aren't going to give that number. And if it's in a desirable area, he'll go out. And so, yeah, we really, I guys really try to filter that down to something that it seems like a good lead to send him out to those houses because of taking in quite a number. of phone calls and he'd be out there all the time. And actually that was happening in the beginning.

I said, you know, get a phone call. And before even really knowing where we are, go go get the rehab numbers. And that wasn't working out so great. Yeah. Because I mean, so what I want to do, you know, is have my brother probably answer phone calls and have the flip out in my area. That's probably what I ended up doing. And as I was afraid of is, he's going to get these phone calls from direct mail marketing and be calling me every day. Like, okay, go look at this property. Go look at this property. Go look at this one. And that would just drive me nuts. I don't have to time. to go look at, you know, dozens of properties a day because I'm here hanging out with you guys on bigger pockets, right? So I need to simplify, like, I need to make it the time makes sense. So when you're

on the phone with those people, do you tell them that you are, you know, you're across the country? Do you not let them, you know, not let them know that? Do you say your partner is going to come look at it? How does that work? So I have a Google voice number that is for that area. And then if it does come come up, I'll let them know that I'm in Los Angeles. And there's often I might go back once a month, so I may be in town and be able to view. But then I always say the person that's going to come view the property as my partner, he's going to do the numbers, and then I'll be calling you back. And people never put up any kind of weirdness about that at all?

Like they never say, oh, because you know, you're building the trust with them, and then your partner is going to actually kind of almost close the deal in a way, right? Do people have a problem with that ever? No, because he's going there really, not to close, well, he's there to build a rapport with them, but get the rehab numbers. I'll be closing. that negotiation with them. And you just do that over the phone primarily.

Yeah. Nice. Very cool. Yeah, this is good because like I said, I really wanted to do this stuff. And I know a lot of other people live in expensive areas and maybe that's a job that they can do if they have a brother or sister, cousin, aunt, whatever, in an area that's more prime for investing. You know, this is a really good strategy.

If you can find the right partner, like we talked about not just anybody's going to do, but if you can find the right person to work with. And you know the area. And you know the area. And you know the area. And can I give you one tip on, on, on. the mailing is have that mailing go out postmarked

somewhere locally. So I had hired a mailing service and it was out of Texas and every question came up. This is a scam. It's coming out of Texas. You're from Massachusetts. So we're mailing everything out of Massachusetts now just to avoid that question.

And then when I started too, I was selling sending stuff from California. So or if I'm calling from the California number, sometimes I make an error and I'll call from my cell phone and they're like, what's this California number. You tell them that's where I am, but it just, it's, it's something that you could avoid or or you've, you've already built this layer of distrust when it's coming from somewhere else

and you've got to kind of peel away from that. If you're mailing it from that area, you won't have to deal with that at all. That's awesome. Yeah, I love that. I love that. I love it. So what are your, what are your letters say? I mean, you know, you don't have to give us the exact content, but, you know,

what's kind of the gist of what you're putting in there? You got the postcard, what is the process and what is the flow of the content of the mailings? Sure. So that's just more of a, you know, we buy houses. We're looking to buy houses in your area. It could be, you know, any level of either from just some minor repairs to, you know, a major renovation. We'll buy the house for cash. We'll close quickly.

A lot of the standard language. and then that will handle the closing costs. You won't have to deal with commissions and agent stuff, but it's a branded as well. So it has S&C homebuyers. They know they're buying from a home buying company wants to buy from them, and we go from there. Okay.

And do you happen to track your numbers precisely? And if you don't want to show it, it's all right too. But, like, you know, out of everybody who calls you, you know, how many of those do you end up actually going to looking at or approximately or how many do you end up closing of those phone calls? Yeah, we are overall, and this is not just from the mailing, but it takes us about 30 offers to close on one house. Okay. Okay.

That's, uh, yeah, that's not, that's not, that's not terrible. I mean, I like having those numbers because like my mind thinks like a funnel. You know, I like to think of how many offers can I, you know, or how many deals can I look at it on my desk? How many can I analyze of those? Of those I analyze, how many can I make an offer on, of those I offer on how many will get accepted? And of those I get accepted, how many will get closed, you know, the end of the day. And I was going to ask what that is. So you said, of those offers, right? So you make, 30 offers. How many of those are you actually hearing back? Are you getting a response to how many

are actually going into negotiation to lead to that actual one final deal? That's a tough one, because I would say about a third where we get into the negotiations. About 20 of those will get ignored. And, you know, 10, we get into negotiation. And then, And then others, we're finally, you know, six months or a year later, they're like, hey, I still got that offer from you is you still want to talk. Okay. Yeah. So people come back and, you know, no doesn't necessarily mean no forever.

It could just mean momentarily. So what do you say? I mean, when you're making an offer, and this is something that I'll admit that I'm not very good at. I feel weird making offers. You know, I've been doing this for a long time, but I still am not very good at it, I feel like. So what do you say when you make an offer? Do you tell them, hey, I'm going to fax something over, email something over, mail something something over?

Or do you just tell them right on the phone? you know, I'll give you $50,000. How's that sound? Like, what's your process look like? it's a little both so when i come back onto the phone with them we start to kind of feel them out for for what what the offer is we're almost kind of talking about what that offer would be and then and then i all already know what that that number is going to be if if if it works now i say hey i'm i'm going to send you i'm going to email you this offer right now even if it doesn't work if that number doesn't work for them i'll still send them that offer and say hey keep keep it around Keep us as a plan B, or I'll follow up with you in a couple months and see if things change.

Okay. Cool. So you typically, you're kind of doing it over the phone, but you're also emailing them the offer. Do you ask for their email address somewhere in that process, I'm assuming then? Yeah. Okay. And if I don't get that or if they don't have one, I'll put it in postal mail. Okay.

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All right. So moving on from that area, let's talk about... Let's talk about the deals themselves. Yeah, yeah. I was going to say, let's talk about like you get the deal, you buy the deal.

First of all, how do you finance it? Okay. So we've done it a number of different ways. So we were really learning out through this year because our partnership started December last year. So we're a year in.

And so we're trying to kind of merge these two companies and two different ways of doing business into one. So one way of financing is we had cash. We were buying houses with cash and then and then trying to refinance with the bank because we couldn't really find the bank to be there in time to be able to close. So we'd have to close twice and get refinanced.

And we were having some trouble with bank financing too. It was just taking such a long time, you know, 60 days, 90 days. We were getting through, we got through two flips by the time the bank came back on the first one. You're not have to change the address. We're three houses in. So we've been working out the relationship with the banks. So that was one way. And then another was crowdfunding.

So we use that. And that's been really good. We've done two deals using crowdfunding. And that's great. That gives us a really good confidence that someone's going to be there if the bank's not there or if we don't have the cash at the time. And we know if it's a good deal or not because if they don't fund it, then it wasn't really that that great of a deal.

Can we talk about that for a little bit? Because we've never had a guest on who's used crowdfunding. I don't think anyway. I'm not sure. I don't think so. So, first of all, people who don't know what that is, what do you mean by you use crowdfunding? Well, the funding source that I use is fund that flip. And it was a crowdfunding is it was an online, you know, you just go online, request your

criteria. They fund the deal, but then they go back out to accredited investors that backfill that funding, if that made any sense. Say that again. Okay, so they'll fund the deal. We need $150,000. So that crowdfunding source will fund the deal, and then they go back to their investors to backfill that fund.

I get it. Okay. So it's a little different than like the portals where you put a deal in and then, you know, the accredited investors can come in and, you know, they see it and they decide if they want to put up X amount of dollars to. be a part of it. I mean, this is all managed by this fund the flip guys. Right. If I had to wait

for the other credit investors to go in, we never know when that'll happen. So it could be a week, it could be a month. So, yeah, they'll fund it up front and then they make that offer back out to the investors. And then you can watch it get funded by the credit investors. Hey, you're at 50%

funding, you're at 100. But that didn't really, I mean, it matters in the long run, but for me to get my deal and get working, I've already got the money to go and go do that. That's cool. Oh, so, okay, so they'll look at it, the company themselves, they'll vet the deal, and they'll say, okay, this is a good deal. We're going to, we're going to finance you. They go out, they find other people to, as you called it, backfill or give them the money that they spent to finance the deal to you. Presumably, they come up with some kind of rate on that, and that's it. Okay, interesting.

Yeah, I'd not heard of that strategy. Yeah, I hadn't neither. So how does that compare with like hard money? If you're going to go with a hard money lender who's charging, let's say, I don't know, 12% interest, 13, 14% interest. How is that? You don't have to tell us necessarily. I don't know if you can tell us exactly what interest you got, but like how does that typically compare? To me, I found it's like the goldie locks of funding because on the hard money side, it was fast, but very expensive.

So where we were, they were talking 15, 16% with points. on the bank side we're at like 5%, but it's taking 60, 90 days. So, you know, good rates, but really slow. They are at around 12% with three points and I get the money in about a week. So it was just in the sweet spot for us. Definitely help us keep the momentum going. And yeah, it worked out really, really good. Okay.

And for those people who don't know, what is a point? What are we talking about when you say there's three points or something like that? A percent interest on the overall deal. Okay. So like a $200,000 deal, one point would be $2,000. Does that sound right? Yeah, yeah. Big down, yeah.

Okay, make sure I did my path right there. All right. So crowdfunding, kind of cool. And there's a lot of companies out there that do it. You know, I've read about them. I've, you know, talked to some of them, but I've never actually done it because I just, you know, I don't know. It makes me like, it's like a new thing.

It's a new that hasn't been around for a long time. So, I mean, do you recommend other investors should go out there and try that? Should they wait until they're more experience to try it? Or do you think it's worth looking at it right away? I think you need to be more experience. And I know for fun that flip, they want to make sure that you've done a deal or there's extenuating circumstances, you know, either that you're a contractor or something that you have some kind of experience before the lend. I vetted them. I was a little nervous about it because here's this online site.

And I believe it was Jay Scott was on the board. So I went on to bigger pockets to say, hey, what is this crowdfunding site? And, you know, it gave me a little bit more confidence of who they are. So, yeah, worked out great. Cool. Cool. So what price ranges are we talking about for these houses that you're buying? So we're buying in around 75 to 150, 200,000 range, and then resale at the 2 to 350. Okay.

This might just showcase my ignorance here, but I didn't think, like, Massachusetts, when I think of property is there, I would just imagine, like, 800,000. He's a Western mass. Big difference. Okay. Big difference. I didn't even know that we're at Western. It's rural out there. A little bit different out there.

Okay. There is a casino going into Springfield, so it's going to be on the map here soon. You're going to... Okay. And there's something like about basketball over there. I don't know. A guy named James Naismitz. Was that the guy?

That's right. That's right. Basketball, all the fame. Yeah. And volleyball in that area, too. So big, big area. Okay. Yeah.

All right. Cool. All right. So you're buying these properties for you said like the 75 to 150. You're selling them in the two, would you say two to 250 or something like that range? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

about three, 350. Okay, yeah, yeah. So those are good numbers. How much are you put into those kind of deals? How much work do they need?

40 to 60,000. Oh, 40 to 60,000. On the higher end is when we have a septic system. So on the higher end, when you have to deal with septic, you're going to be looking at a higher rehab costs. But yeah,

for the most part, that's about where we're going to be. All right, all right, very cool. So let me ask you this kind of last question about the process. Your partner is like,

the boots on the ground. And he's a, you said he was like a general contractor. Is that right? Or something like that. Right. All right. So does he do the work himself? Is he hiring it out? Subs, how does the actual work had done? It's hired out. So, uh, and so this was kind of a learning piece for him too, because he did all his deals by doing all the work himself. But there's, it's, it's really hard to go and continue to look at rehabs and it would just crush the flow of it. So yeah, he, he's, he's been hiring all that out. And he's, he's on a great job of pulling together our A team of subcontractors here to get these houses done. Okay, okay, very cool.

That's awesome. Josh. No, I was going to say, you know, I mean, it sounds like you've kind of put together a pretty cool process. I mean, running this company from 3,000 miles away, can't be easy. How many times a year are you going out again to visit? I go eight to about eight times a year. Eight times a year.

Okay, so, I mean, that's a substantial amount. I mean, and your goal beyond. meeting with your partner. Are you scouting areas? Are you looking for new potential places to invest, new markets, new farms, or what's kind of the idea there? Outside of Massachusetts or that particular area? And where you're investing? We're looking to expand to another county and then just pushing in a little bit into Connecticut as well. So, yeah. And what is your long-term goal? Like, where are you planning heading with this business? You want to buy more rental properties of

or is just to flip and make a ton of cash? Or what's the long-term goal? For us, so the flipping business is to make the cash, and then we each have our portfolio of rentals. And so we want to build that for ourselves, our respective families to have those there. So hopefully there's not too many of the failed flips that have to kind of fall into the fact of that category.

But yeah, that's where we see ourselves. This year is going to be really focused on getting a lot of our systems down and perfecting the single family flip. And then the following years will be developing a rental portfolio for that company there. Okay. Gotcha. Cool. Got you.

Hey, my last question, Bob, so your license is in Massachusetts, correct? That's right. Okay. And you were able to get your license in Massachusetts despite living in California? Correct. Did you need a physical address to do that? Is that just? I used my parents address in Massachusetts.

Okay. And then, but I did take the one in California first, and then they had like a semi-reciprocal program over there. You still had to take the test, but you didn't have to take the education part. Okay. Gotcha. Oh, perfect. Cool.

Cool. Well, this has been super, super informative. I mean, like, again, I really want to do a lot of what you're doing. I want to pick up my flipping in the coming years. And so, and I know I can't do it all myself. So I know I'm going to have to bring on my partner. and most likely it'll be my little brother because we work really well together. So it's been good.

But before we get out of here, let's move over to the world famous Fire Round. It's time for the Fire Round. Fire round. These questions come direct out of the Bigger Pockets Forum. So we're going to throw them at you. Number one. Let's see. This is kind of a rental one.

So I'm looking to buy a single family with a renter already in it. I have requested the payment records and the lease agreement. What else should I be looking for when I'm buying it? Look at the records of any improvements that were done over there. You know, if anything on the mechanicals, the heating system, any of the upgrades that were done to that property, I think taking a look at that. Yeah, on the rental side, I would just say that. I think that's missed actually a lot of times. I think people just, they kind of walk around.

They maybe do their own inspection, but they don't ever find out, you know, what exactly the history of what's been going on here? What have you done the last few years? maintenance records. Yeah. I mean, not a lot of people, not everyone's going to keep them, but if you can get that, like, oh, the furnace was updated two years ago or, hey, the furnace hasn't been updated in 35 years. You know, like, those are pretty important to know for long-term planning for a rental

especially. So great. Cool. What should somebody look for when trying to find a partner to do deals with? So if you, you know, knowing what you know today, if you were to start looking for a new partner to work with, what would you look for? Well, what worked out for Justin and me is that we were the pieces that each other were missing. So when we look back at our businesses, we were finding ourselves going through this pattern of hustling, hustling to find a house.

Then you find a house. Then you're hustling, hustling, and get that thing out on the market. And then you're done. And now, like, oh, crap, now you've got to restart that marketing machine again and going. So for us, the way it worked out was I wasn't, I didn't have that expertise on the rehab side, but I felt that it was a pretty strong marker. I can keep that marketing machine moving all the way through as he's focusing on getting the houses to market, getting those rehab. So if you're going to look for a partner, don't look for someone that has the same skills as you do. Look for those missing skills.

And I think that's what works great. And then someone you get along with. I mean, it was Rockefeller that had that quota. It's friendship founded in businesses better than a business founded on friendship. And we've developed our friendship through the business. it's been because we were like-minded, but brought different skills, complementary skills. Yeah, I love that. It's gold.

All right. What are some tips you would give someone who's trying to buy a property outside of their state? Boots on the ground. Having someone definitely there that gets to really, really know that area. So go there, go travel there. Go and buy that plane ticket, drive those streets. Definitely something that you want to do. Perfect. Cool. Cool. What's the best type of neighborhood? What are the best types of neighborhoods to look for when looking for purchases? And that's really a tough question to answer. I'd say, what are the kinds of neighborhoods that you specifically look for in your buying criteria? School districts. When it's got a good school district, I think that that's where we want to be anyways. So that's what we look for. Good school districts, good communities. You know,

low crime and I think the good school districts and low crime are going to come together. So that's where we want to be. Awesome. Cool. Awesome. I love it. You know, I actually never really cared about school districts much until, I don't know, was it four or five months ago?

We had something in the podcast talking about that because I never even thought about it. I don't have kids or I don't have kids yet. And so like I never really thought it was a big deal. And then, yeah, we interviewed someone in the podcast. I was like, you know, that is a pretty big deal. People care about that kind of thing, apparently. So anyway, I did a ton of research in it. And now, like, that's one of the main things I look for.

People will move a block away to be in a good school district versus where they are. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. That's huge. All right. Well, cool. Well, hey, let's move on and wrap this thing up with the famous four. Famous for these questions are asked of every single guest, every single week.

So you probably know what's coming. But number one, what is your favorite real estate related book? Millionaire real estate investor, Gary Keller. Awesome. Just finished that one a little while ago, and that really kind of helped bring things into focus. And it was timely for me because it's, as we're doing our 2016 operating plan, that kind of brought really helped me figure out the pieces that I need to put in place and kind of forecast. And that was a great, great book. Okay.

All right on. What about business books? Is their favorite business book? Yeah. The, on the business book. So for 2015, for me, I was really focused on, doing the direct mail and sales and negotiation. So I was looking for sales and negotiation books.

And Zig Zigler's, what was it is, secrets in closing the sale was great. One, I think Zig Zigler is fantastic. I remember it was just about the kind of ethically based selling and looking for those win-wins. And, you know, so that was a fantastic book for me. And if I can add another one on like the self-help or productivity side, I really enjoyed a miracle morning. And that's really how to help me develop, you know, get up early now and get my professional development set. And I'm feeling I'm much more productive these days.

We've actually got Hal Elrod, the author, scheduled to come on a bigger pockets podcast in like a month or two from now, something like that. So it's on the schedule. So we've been communicating. So, yeah, we'll get him on the show and talk about more about that. that's a good one because yeah i love that book too i love the book changed a lot of stuff for me so cool all right uh let's see next question josh all right bob so what are your hobbies what do you do for fun so i've got two young kids so for us it's uh it's family and travel so uh i think that's fun i mean i used to have hobbies like golf and skiing and all that stuff but the uh you know

to try to carve out five or six hours uh to go golf and that doesn't go uh very well over here so So, yeah, traveling with the family. Last year we did the cross-country trip with the kids and off to Massachusetts. This past summer, we went off to Russia for a number of weeks. And so that's been a lot of fun. So, yeah, doing stuff with the family. Cool. Cool.

All right, my final question of the day, what do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from those who give up, fail, or never get started? I'll put it into the not having the proper, roadmap and I use the roadmap as a as an acronym MAP so one them mindset just not having the proper mindset you're touching on this earlier of those that are not thinking about how they can do something like you know they quit on it so I had a colonel that you said don't tell me what I can't do tell me how I can do it and so having that mindset in this industry you've got to

practically will things to happen and then creating that environment for yourself having being around supportive people. I've got a wildly supportive family. I've got a great business partner. I surround myself with positive people that can get things done. So that's one. Abundance is the other, the A part of it and just kind of giving back and wanting to give back and helping others. We've done that with our RIA that we started. And actually that was that was born out of bigger pockets. It was on a forum and people were like, where's there, where's there a meetup, for real estate investors in Western Mass, and there wasn't one. So I answered that guy, let's start one ourselves.

And it went from there. So that was pretty cool. Yeah. And then perseverance, you got to stick with it. And particularly with the like direct mail. And a good example of that is last summer I started a mail campaign. It started in June. This lady received four letters from us.

And it took her until November before she responded. Get there in November, do the negotiation. took another three months before she decided, three months and a giant snowstorm before she decided, like, hey, I'm done. I'm ready to sell. You know, you got to hang in there. That was good, what, eight months, nine months before that came to fruition. And I think a lot of people would have quit by then. So I think those are the three pieces. That's the roadmap. Cool. I like that. I've never heard that. Yeah. Cool. All right. Great. Josh. Last question. Yeah, where can people find out more about you? You're on.

bigger pockets. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. You can find me on bigger pockets, LinkedIn, or Bob at SC-homebuyers.com. Perfect. Well, Bob, thank you so much for coming on, man. We really do appreciate it and lots of luck as you continue to build out your business. I think. It's a real honor to be here and I like being here with you guys today. Thanks. Awesome. We'll see around. Bye. All right, guys, big thanks to Bob for coming on the show. We really do appreciate it. Merry, Merry Christmas to you. Go be with your family. Get out of here. I'm Josh Dorkin. Signing off. Signing off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio. Simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the height, you're in the right place.

Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. We wish you a Merry Christmas. We wish you a Merry Christmas. We wish. Merry Christmas. We're sure that's not copyrighted. So bring us some piggy pudding and bring it right here. Isn't that what the song goes? It's a demanding song. I don't know.

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