BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 168: Building Hundreds of Homes to Sell or Rent with Cameron Skinner

Episode Date: March 31, 2016

Today we’re excited to bring you an interview with a savvy investor who’s done over 500 deals — Cameron Skinner. Cameron got his start with new construction spec builds in the late 1990s and due to the changing economy created an interesting twist that we know you guys are going to just love. This episode is packed with incredible, actionable advice that will leave you shouting, “I’m totally going to do that strategy!” In This Episode We Cover: How Cameron got started by partnering with someone Why he started with new construction Can anyone build to rent? How to calculate capex and why it’s important What exactly cost segregation is How to get tax benefits now How many deals Cameron has done so far His experience during the crash What you should know about how lease options work When to seek professional advice regarding the laws in your area How to know your market Downsides of the build-rent strategy Tricks for finding the best contractor How he completed so many deals without picking up a hammer How to keep an “investor mindset” to find the best deals The importance of finding out your skill set Why Cameron has no employees The cost of tearing down a property And SO much more! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Analysis BiggerPockets Calculators BiggerPockets Forums Keyword Alerts BiggerPockets Meet Tax, Legal Issues, Contracts, Self-Directed IRA Forum Category Books Mentioned in this Show The Book on Tax Strategies for the Savvy Real Estate Investor by Amanda Han and Matt MacFarland Brandon Turner’s The Book on Investing in Real Estate with No (and Low) Money Down The Richest Man in Babylon by George S. Clason Thou Shall Prosper by Rabbi Daniel Lapin Tweetable Topics: “I’m not worried about 20 years from now because I might be dead — so I want to take the tax benefits now.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Cameron Cameron’s BiggerPockets Profile Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 168. When you think about it, I build probably 500 homes now, and I've never picked up a hammer. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorkin.

House to the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host, Mr. Brandon Turner. What's up, man? Not a whole lot today. What's going on with you? No, not much, man. Let's get into the show. Yeah, guess what I did? I don't care.

Before we get in the show, I want to tell you what I did. You know what I did. I built myself a treadmill desk this week. Oh, yeah, that thing. Yeah, yesterday I sat and I walked for 90. Looks really safe. It is really safe. I worked for 90 minutes on it yesterday, editing the new audio book of the book on managing rental properties.

I was editing it. Yeah, I worked 90 minutes standing at my thing. I got 10,000 steps in. It was amazing. That's great. Why don't you tell everybody what really happened to you back on the treadmill back in the day? I think we talked about that once where I was running and it broke and I went flipping up several ways. I was up speed 11 or 12 and just, yeah, it was the worst experience of my life.

But speaking of worst. Speaking of worst experience of my life, let's get to today. Just kidding. Today's show was actually incredible. Today was one of those shows that like, when I got done, the first thing I said to Josh was,

I'm doing this. Like, this is my next strategy. It's my next. No, like I, I love this. Shiny, shiny object. No, this is not,

this is more than shiny object. This is my next strategy. I am telling you. So, I know I've said that before, but whatever. Before we get to that, though, let's get to today's quiz. Tip, tip. All right, today's quick tip is nice and easy.

We've said it before. We're going to say it again. If you do not currently have keyword alerts set up for your local city names. I highly recommend you do it. On bigger pockets. Yeah, last night I went to a meetup. 70 people showed up all from bigger pockets. So everybody but one guy who came with a friend.

And it was incredible. There was so much networking and dealmaking going on at that meetup. It was awesome. So if you're not doing that, you're missing out. So BiggerPockets.com slash alerts. Alerts. There you go. And put in your town.

in your zip code, putting the towns around there, put in the areas that you work in, and you'll get to meet people who invest in areas that you're interested in. So there you go. Most investors spend more time chasing deals than reviewing their insurance. But a quick coverage check can be fast, easy, and one of these smartest ways to protect and even improve your property's cash flow. As the months get colder, frozen pipes, icy walkways, and seasonal wear and tear can increase the likelihood of claims. And traditional insurance companies aren't always built to handle these claims quickly or smoothly. That's why more real estate investors are turning to steadily. They focus exclusively on landlords, whether it's a single-family rental,

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Legally, 100% IRS compliant. That's instant cash flow improvement. Cost segregation guys is the number one firm nationwide, specializing and identifying these faster depreciating assets in your property. They've completed tens of thousands of studies across all 50 states from remote, cabins to apartment complexes. So if you own investment property, this is a no-brainer. So visit costsegregationguise.com slash BP for your free proposal and find out how much you could save this tax season. For decades, real estate has been a cornerstone of the world's largest

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available to you. Visit fundrise.com slash BP Market to explore the fund's full portfolio, check out historical returns, and start investing in just minutes. Carefully consider the investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses of the Fundrise Flagship Fund before investing. This and other information can be found in the fund's prospectus at Fundrise.com slash flagship. This is a paid advertisement. Cool, cool, cool. All right, guys, we got a great show. Really, really excited. Let's get into this one. Our guest today is Cameron Skinner. Cameron's been in the game for 15, 16 years now has done hundreds. Yes, hundreds of deals.

And he's going to talk all about his strategy today, which is really focused on new construction. He does build to rent and has done a bit of new build and then sell, sale. I don't know, just new construction. I think that's what it's called. Spec building, spec building, yeah. Spec building. So, spec building. So, yeah, he's done a time of there's lots of great information on the show. So check it out. Let's tune in and bring him on. All right, Cameron, welcome to the show, man. It's good to have you here. I'm glad to be with you guys.

I feel like I know you guys because I keep hearing you on the podcast. Oh, nice. You listen to a lot of episodes, haven't you? Yeah, I've listened to most of them. Okay, that's awesome. What color underwear is, Brandon, wearing? We've never talked about that. Oh, okay.

I don't even know myself. I don't look at what I put on in the morning. What's underwear? What are you talking about? All right. All right. So, Cameron, we want to go back into your story. You've done a lot of deals.

Like I said before the show, So you're a rock star in this game. So I want to know how you, how did you get started with this whole real estate game? When did that begin for you? Well, right after college, I got my license to practice tax. I got my accounting degree. And I like to tell people, the only thing worse than doing accounting in college was actually doing accounting in real life.

So when I, you know, I did that for a while and it was, you know, it was just brutal. So I had a friend who was an old army buddy. And he had a tax problem. And since I was licensed to practice, and that's kind of what I did. I helped him out with it. And he was a superintendent for one of these big track builders who builds, you know, like hundreds of homes a year. And he would build like one house on the side as a spec house.

And so I was helping with his taxes. And he was making, I don't know, $35,000, you know, doing his regular job. And he made like $15,000 building the spec house. And I was like, hey, why don't you build 10 spec houses, you know, and quit your job, make $150,000 a year. And he's, he told me, he said, you know what, the bank won't loan me the money. And plus, I have to have some money to put down. So I was like, well, the bank loves to loan, you know, me money. And I've got some money, you know, is in savings. So let's partner up and, you know, I'll, I'll get the money and you build the house and we'll split the profits. And so that's

what got me down this road. That's cool. So you started by just partnering with somebody who can, who needed, I mean, like, so that's why I tell people all the time is, like, if you're trying to get started and you don't have the money, you can't get the loans, find somebody who can get the money, and then work with them. So essentially that's what you did, but the other side of the equation. Right, right. And I think the thing to do is, you know, you bring your skill set and then they bring theirs. Because what I also found out was the first deal we did, I said, okay, well, I'll just give you the money and you build the house like you've done in the past. And what I found out is builders are usually guys who are really good with their hands, tend to be really bad at bookkeeping and really bad at like doing numbers.

and stuff because they usually come up through the trades, you know, maybe they were a framer or a carpenter, and then they worked their way up to being a licensed contractor. So they're not real good at invoices and, you know, they double pay their bills and, you know, they just make a lot of mistakes. So what I did is on the next one, I said, hey, let me do all the, you know, all the accounting work, you know, cut all the checks and do all that and you build the houses. And what we found out was really great was he hated doing that. So it kind of took a lot off his plate, you know, because he didn't have to worry about, you know, what bills got paid and all of that. And then it was, then I was, you know, able to, to help him out. And he was able to help me out. And we found out we made more

money together than we would have a part. Yeah. That's great. I love that you said that. Because, I mean, that's that, that, the partnership thing, like two, you know, one and one doesn't equal two. It can equal five, 10, 15, 20. When you get the right people together, like each of you can do together far more than you would have done separately. I love that. Right. Yeah, very cool. Okay. So you went from that, when was that, by the way, was that? He was like 99, 2000, so right at 16 years ago when we did that first house. Okay. So you started with new construction.

Now, before we go any further, that is an odd thing. So most people don't start with new construction. Most people start with, you know, something very, very, you know, like, I'm going to buy a duplex or I'm going to buy a flip to do one little flip. Like, why new construction just because the friend was in it? Right. Just because my friend had the expertise in it, you know, and I, you know, back then, you know, there were no flip shows. I mean, I mean, I didn't really know anything about flipping or anything. And I was, and granted, I was really just treating this as a pure investment. You know, I was going to put up the money. He was going to do all the work, you know, and then we would split the profits. So I kind of just, you know, I just treated it as a pure investment. But then it grew from there. Nice. So, you know, I don't think we've actually talked about anyone who's done this before. So you guys are building a house from the ground up and then holding onto the property and running them out, correct?

Well, originally we just did specs. We built them and then we sold them. And then there was a little lull in the market, because it's about 2002, and we couldn't sell some of the homes. So then we decided that we would just hold on to them and rent them. And at that time, I just bought my business partner, my builder friend, I just bought him out. So I gave him some money, you know, what it would have sold for. And then I just kept it as a rental. Okay.

Nice. And does that financially work out? I mean, like, I always assumed somebody even asked me a few weeks ago, I was talking to a group of people. And somebody asked me, can you build the rent? And I said, I've never seen the numbers work out in my area. And then one of them came up after that talk. And he said, oh, actually, that's what I do. I've built to rent lots of things.

So did it work out for you or no? Oh, yeah. I mean, when I started renting, I was like, oh, this is great. So why don't I go buy some rentals? And so I have a few older rentals as well in my portfolio. And I've been doing this long enough. I have long streams of data. And I can tell you, if you go buy a 1980s house, well, yeah, it does good for the first two years, but then I got to replace the roof.

You know, and then I got to replace the HVAC, and then I got to place the water heater. And so you got to remember, even a house that was built, I don't know, in 2000, it's still 16 years old. So the roof is halfway through its useful life. I mean, the AC is on its last leg. I mean, you know, you've got all these things that are breaking down. When I bring on a new house, you know, it's basically maintenance free for five or six years. So when I look at the numbers over the long term, even though my cash flow might be a little bit less because I might have a little bit more into the properties. Overall, I tend to do better in the long term because I have less maintenance.

Right on, right on. You know, it's something I want to point out to any of the newbie landlords or wannabe landlords that are listening. what a lot of people get wrong is they fail to account for those capital expenditures, the CAPEX. And I think you nailed it. I mean, you know, a house from 2000 was just around the corner. That was 16 years ago, right? So, you know, there is a useful life to all of these things that you buy, whether it's a roof or appliances or ACHVAC. And so you got to keep that in mind when you're buying a rental property, you know, if you're not accounting for that and having to replace it down the line, you're going to get yourself in a lot of trouble.

And I think that's one of the things that novices particularly screw up is not including that. So I'm glad you mentioned it. Right. Well, and I don't want to get too much into the weeds on this, but when we're talking, you know, benefits of new construction, you can do what's called cost segregation. And this might help your flippers as well, because when you just buy a rental home, if I go in and just buy a rental home, I have to depreciate it over 27 and a half years. But if I build it brand new, I can take certain components of construction over five years.

So like my cabinets, my countertops, my electrical fixtures, my plumbing fixtures, you can depreciate those over five years. Your site improvements, you can depreciate over 15 years. So in other words, you're getting a huge tax benefit because you're able to bring all that depreciation forward. And so you get to write off a lot more much quick. And flippers can do that as well. As long as you, as long as you have the cost of whatever you did, you can actually do a cost segregation. And then your cat, say if you put in brand new cabinets and brand new floor coverings, you can actually depreciate those over five years instead of depreciating that over 27 and a half. So what does that look like for somebody who doesn't know what the heck you're talking about? What does that mean? Can you give us some kind of concrete example to explain it so like the child and me can understand it? Okay. Or for Brandon. Well, let's say if I had a house that was $100,000, okay, and I write it over 27 and a half years,

that basically means I can only depreciate one 27 and a half of it a year. So it ends up being a little over $3,000 a year that I can take as an expense. Okay. You know, we all talk about the tax benefit of real estate. That's a huge tax benefit because IRS, you know, assumes that any kind of equipment or houses go down in value. And so you are able to say, okay, well, the house is wearing out over time, and houses do wear out over time. And so they allow you to take one 27th of that product as it kind of wears out over time. But since you built it brand new, you can cost segregate it, and you can kind of pull forward all those components I told you about, and you can depreciate them over a much shorter time.

So now maybe I'm taking my cabinets, six grand worth of cabinets, and I don't only have to depreciate those over five years. So you're able to take a much bigger expense. in the year you put it into service. That makes sense. And my CPA has been telling me that for a couple of years now. She wants to do a, Amanda Hahn, wants to do a cost segregation on my apartment complex. Because I know apartment complex owners can do that as well. I don't know what the rules are for how and when and who you can.

But she said basically the same thing is we'll be able to divide out all my things like carpet, cabinets, things like that. Right. And when you have a large product or a large property, it's worth it to do a cost segregation analysis. Okay. Because IRS requires you to do a, it's called an engineering study on if you just buy the property. But the great thing about it is if you build it, they allow you to use what's called the cost approach because you have all your cost when you build it. Or if you built, you know,

or when you flip it, but when you say you buy a derelict house and you fix it up and rent it, you have those numbers. You know, you have your numbers for your floor coverings. You have your numbers. So then you just break them out. You give them to your CPA broken out and they'll be able to, you know, depreciate them for you at a much quicker rate. So you'll get a much better tax benefit. There's kind of an old saying that economists think in the long term and accountants think in the short term. So we want to maximize a tax benefit in the short term because we're all dead in the long term. So I'm not worried about 20 years from now because, you know, I might be dead. So I want to take the tax benefit now. And now you do have to, correct me if I'm wrong,

you do have to pay that back eventually with deep, what's called the recapture of depreciation, correct? Yes. When you do sell the property, you do have to recapture the depreciation. But this is the great thing about, this is another great thing about real estate, the tax advantages. If you just hold on to it forever, and, you know, that's my plan, is on my rentals. I hold on to them, and then I'm going to die, and then they're going to go to my kids. We get called stepped up basis. They will never have to recapture that depreciation. Yeah, that's cool. And people do want to know more about that. There's a little, there's a good chunk of the book on tax strategies for savvy real estate investors that we just launched about a month ago by Amanda Hahn. And we do talk about that in there. Amanda talks about it and Matt. So anyway, just to plug that there and get it at bigot pockets.com slash tax book.

Well, and people really need to pick up that book and read it. I tell people your biggest expense is your tax bill. You know, when you get in this business and you start growing it and stuff, I mean, you've got a business partner that takes 30% of your income, you know, and add you no value. You know, so you need to make sure that you're paying as little tax as possible because that's 30% you can't roll into your next deal. Yep.

Yep. That's great. Hey, so how many deals have you done so far? I would guess about 500 properties that I've built. You know, I've sold most of them, of course, and then I've kept a, I've got about 100 doors currently. So, oh, that's awesome. So, that's significant, nice job.

Are you the guy that when I'm driving, I mean, let's say, okay, so I live out in Western Washington, Olympia, Washington is like the biggest city to me. So I go to Olympia to go to Costco, and I drive by these huge developments, which have, like, you know, 200 fancy houses and there's a guy out there with a sign waving it in the street, you know, like open house today? Right. Is that you, I mean, you're not the guy with a sign, but are you guys building that, or are you doing one-offs?

No, I mean, we do a lot of one-offs because, you know, of course, we're, you know, of course we'll go in. The big developers, the guys who are much bigger than me, of course, they can go in and they can buy 40, 50 lots at a time. And we can't do that. You know, the most we could probably do is 20 lots at a time. So during the, you know, the biggest development I ever did was probably 100 unit development. And that was a conversion from a trailer park to a single family home development. But that's the biggest I've ever done. And that was during the boom when I could get money to do it. Now you just cannot get the financing to do, you know, much more probably 10 at a time, 10, 15 at a time.

So you've experienced, I mean, you were doing this back pre-crash and then you went through the crash and now you're, well, we're not at a crash again, but you know, you've kind of gone through the full cycle and then again, or soon to be then again. Can you talk a little bit about that? I mean, how did that affect your business? How did that affect you as a builder, as somebody, you know, were you stuck holding on to properties that you thought you were going to be able to sell at that point or had the strategy flipped around 2008, 2009 when things got bad? Walk me through that a little bit. Well, what's interesting is before pre-crash, I'd only had about a dozen rental properties.

You know, the vast majority of the business was building spec homes and selling them. And literally, they were selling as fast as we could build them, you know, because it was in the boom. Money was easy. You know, people could get financing so easy that they were buying the houses when we were pouring the slabs, you know, or putting them under contract where we pouring the slabs. And we were, I mean, we got so sloppy. I mean, it would be like, oh, we forgot to put a master closet in this one. Oh, it'll sell anyway. You know, oh, we forgot to put a toilet in the bathroom.

Oh, it'll sell anyway. Anything would sell. I mean, it was amazing. I'm kidding. I mean, we didn't do that bad. But, I mean, it was, I mean, things were, you know, things were so, we're going so quick. And, you know, we built a huge business. And I think in 2005, 2005 or 2006, we built almost 100 homes that year.

Wow. And, you know, I had 12 employees at the time. You know, and then when it stopped, it stopped. I mean, and I believe it was the December of 2006. We had like 12 contracts fall through and then just nothing sold. I mean, we couldn't give houses away for the property taxes. I mean, there was just nothing was moving at all. Wow.

So what did you have to do? I mean, you're stuck with these properties. How did you survive? We're about five months, you know, away from being bankrupt. I mean, literally, we just, there's no way we could have carried all the properties that we had at the time. And so what we did is we just, we went and we met with all the banks, you know, tried to do workouts with any local banks, any community banks to give us some time.

And then we went and we started doing lease options, you know, to try and get people to at least cover the rental properties, you know, cover the loan amounts. So, I mean, we just did, we did whatever we could. And interesting enough is, you know, of course, because the values were inflated at the time, we were putting the lease options at those amounts. And then, so of course, no one exercised those lease options. So I, that's where the biggest portion of my portfolio came from and rental properties is all those lease options that I picked up after the crash. And now they're, they're all doing well, very profitable. I was able to term those out and refinance them. So I was like, I kind of learned that, hey, this isn't such a bad thing.

You know, maybe I should just now build houses and rent them, you know, not wait for something bad to happen, just to kind of build them as a rental. Yeah. Now, there's a couple things I want to talk about in there. But first of all, for those people who don't know what a lease option is, can you explain that real quick? Well, a lease option, anyway, what used to be a lease option is how we did them anyway. There's an infinite number of ways to do them. But what I used to do was, say a house would normally rent for $1,400 a month, I would say, okay, you'll rent it from us for $1,500 a month, okay? And then $50 a month goes towards the future purchase of the house. And then so what would happen? So they would kind of build up some equity, not much, but they would build up some equity towards the future purchase. And it would kind of lock in what they would buy it for. So if the market went up, they were locked in at today's dollars. So a lot of people would do that because, again, it gave them time to rebuild their credit. And then plus it gave them a little bit of a down payment when they were ready to go get their financing. Yeah, that makes sense.

And when the market goes down, what's the result? Well, when the market goes down, then, of course, they just usually, you know, give you the keys or they just continue to rent. You know, I still have a few lease options from that, you know, from the crash, you know, that are still out there. Mine say they expire in three years, you know, but, you know, or they expire in such that, then I can raise the price on them. I'll still give them the money that they built up, but, you know, I'm allowed to raise it. to current market value. So I still got a couple of people who are still paying on lease options, you know, hoping, you know, might have some tax liens. They're still trying to clear up, you know, hoping one day to buy the house. Yeah. I like the idea of lease options a lot.

I mean, I've struggled with making them really work well in my area. And I know some people just rock at them. And my area just, I've struggled with it. So I'm glad that you've had some good experience, but also they didn't buy them generally didn't buy them off you either. That's why you got the rentals. And I hear that a lot about lease options. And that's like, I know there's been a lot of drama with like the Dodd-Frank laws that came out recently, like, over the past few years with some people consider lease options, like, not violating them, but the way that they're structured has changed a lot. So anyway, people want to look into them, look into them, just make sure you do your research on it before you get too far into that,

just FYI. And I also talk about lease options, as I say, in the book on investing in real estate with no and low money down. Like that, and, yeah, that's great. And you could get that at bigger pockets.com slash no money, but what I was going to say is, is, you know, this applies for anyone who doesn't know what they're doing in a certain strategy. There is a reason that we recommend you have a lawyer and an accountant when you're getting into this business. You need to understand what the laws are in your area, whether it be a landlord-tenant law or, you know, what's allowed regarding wholesaling or lease options or whatever it is. So, you know, make sure you're not going cheap on the professional advice if you're just getting

into the business because that's where you could get yourself in a lot of trouble. Yeah, and I was about to warn that's how we used to do them. But after 2014, because of Dodd-Frank, you can't structure them that way anymore. They're automatically considered a loan. You can still do lease options. You just need to make sure that you set them up in such a way. And the great thing about bigger pockets is there's several, you know, there's several posts on this subject where you can kind of learn and get you going in the right direction. But like you said, I mean, you should really have an attorney drop your lease option. Yeah.

Yeah. Right on. Sure. Sure. Well, cool. Well, hey, let's talk about, so after the crash, after the crash, you started building these properties to rent out for the most part. You still selling them or just all doing build a rent?

Yeah, we still sell many of them. So, and then again, we do build, you know, some of them, you know, we build and we build and we build and we build. If we rent them great, we do that. And then there's some we build strictly for rental. So. Got it. Got it.

Nice. Go ahead, Brandon. I was going to say, like, I want to talk about financing this, because this is something I would love to get into. I love the idea of building a property to rent it out because, again, like, one of the, I mean, one of the basic expenses you deal with is like the constant repair and upkeep and the new roof and all that. So I love that idea of not having a lot of that. So how are you financing those properties? Are they on mortgages, paying cash form, or what do you do? Well, I mean, it's the easiest thing to do, especially on a new property, it's very easy to get what's called a construction perm loan, which basically that means that they will give you.

draws during the construction process during certain points of construction. So when you're like 20% done, you get 20% of the money. And then so the construction perm loan, then it goes, the perm part is then it goes to permanent financing at the end of it. So you just need to go to it, but you really got to go to a local community bank. If you go to a big bank, they just don't know how to do these deals. And you've got to go to the commercial loan guy in a community bank, someone that's just got a couple of branches. Okay. So Cameron, on that, the, uh, construction perm loan. If somebody is using this kind of loan, and let's say you get that 20% draw after 20% of the project's done, do you get anything up front or is that 20, you get your

first 20% after you actually get some work done? And you have to kind of front your own cash to cover the first, you know, a few payments from materials and things like that. Yeah, you usually have to front the first part of it, but that's usually as part of the lot. So in other words, if I pay, you know, usually it's about 10%. They want skin in the game, I call it. So they want 10%. So if you buy a lot for 20,000 and you're going to be all in 100,000, they might give you 10,000 at closing and you've got to come up with the other 10 for the lot.

And then when you, and the great thing about construction is, is most of your professional construction guys, your concrete bill doesn't come until well after you've gotten your draw. You know, there's a few guys who've got their hands out on Friday, but most of your professional guys, you know, they can wait a couple of weeks to get paid and they're used to waiting for that draw until they get paid. That makes sense. Got it. So you're saying like typically you might have to have 10% into the deal. So essentially like a 10% down payment even though it's not quite a down payment. Like you're saying like is that sound pretty typical? Yes. Yeah. It's usually in a construction perm if you've got, you know, it's about 10% normal. Okay. Okay. Very cool. And do you,

because you're working with the commercial department and does it turn into a then, like, like a Fannie Mae, you know, normal loan? Does it stay a portfolio loan in their commercial department? Does it turn into a 30-year fixed? How does that happen afterwards? Those are normally portfolio loans. And if you get a small community bank, they're going to hold a certain amount of commercial paper in their, you know, in their own portfolio. Now, the one thing I will warn is, is almost all of them, they're going to be a five-year balloon.

Okay. So they're going to, you're going to have to read, you're going to have to, they're going to have to check you out, make sure you're still financially solid in five years, get all your financials and everything. and then they'll usually, you know, they'll usually extend the loan. And they're usually only 20 years too. So you've got to be real careful and make sure your cash flow still work at a 20-year amortization. Okay. That's great info.

Since you mentioned cash flow, maybe we can talk about that real quick. What does a typical build to rent sort of deal look like in terms of what do you buy in the land for typically? What do you, you know, how much is it costing you to fix up the house? What are you renting it for? What's the value after you're done? Well, normally in our local market, and of course, every market is different. And what is it?

Really quick. Yeah, what market is it? I'm in Panama City, Florida. Okay. And we're right in the middle of spring break, too. Nice. Yeah, you might hear something in the background. But I tell you what, after the crash, it was great for me because I was able to pick up lots because no one was very few people were building.

I was picking up lots for, you know, $10 or $15,000 in nice, nice neighborhoods. Because, you know, there was a lot of foreclosures. And then, you know, there was a lot of guys playing in the market buying REOs in homes and fixing them up, but there was no one buying lots. So I was basically out there by myself buying these spot lots. That sense changed and it's a lot harder to get lots. So now you can probably buy a lot in a nice neighborhood for about $30,000. And then you can put a nice, modest 1,300 square foot house on it for about $100,000. So you have about $130,000 all in on the house.

And then my rule of thumb is I want that. If I got $130,000 into the house, I want it to rent for at least $1,300 a month. Now, I usually get a little bit more than that, but that's my minimum. I won't even go into the deal unless I know that I can rent it for, you know, I just do that 1%. Yep. If I can deal, if I rent it for that, then, and I know you guys always talk about the 2% rule, but don't forget, I've got no maintenance. Yes.

So it kind of works for me. And that just shows why those rules of thumb, they're only rules of thumb, right? Like, I mean, even in my area, sometimes 2%'s not good enough. Sometimes 1% is good enough. Like it just, it really depends on the deal itself. Oh, yeah, definitely. How would somebody who doesn't know what they're doing know if 1% is good enough or 2% isn't good enough? I mean, you know, it's a great point, Brandon, and you're right.

But how would somebody know that? Well, I mean, it's one of those things where, I mean, you really just have to, you know, know your market. And I always tell people who are buying, you know, people who are just maybe buying a rental. I tell them, I mean, you need to look at 100 deals to buy one. Yeah. You know, I mean, literally, I mean, you need to go through and run the numbers on 100 properties. Now, that might be, you know, your first wave might be, you know, internet, you know, and Zillow and, you know, those type things. Property appraiser, you know, those information and kind of get your numbers on that.

And then your next wave might be you look at 10 of them and then you might make offers on five. And then, you know, you just keep narrowing it down. but you've really got to look at a bunch of houses before you, you know, you get to that one diamond in the rough. Yeah. And that's why also I just recommend, I mean, do the full numbers. Like, don't just rely on a rule of thumb. Like I say that over and over and over all time. Never buy a property based on a rule of thumb, whether it's a 70% rule, 50% or any of that. The rule of thumb is just so that if it just, it's a nice way of saying, okay, I can buy this lot, say that lot is $40,000 now and it's $100,000 to build, but I know it only rent for $1,300 a month. I'll have a hundred. 140 all in, I don't even look at the deal any further. Yep. Does that make, yeah, so really that rule of done is just to say, yeah, quick screening to like,

and you wouldn't believe there, there's a lot of deals that I don't even look at, you know, because it's like it doesn't meet my rule of thumb. So I don't even, I don't even try to run the numbers because I don't waste my time on it. Yep. What I think of real estate, I think of, you know, largely in terms of a funnel, right? So you have all the leads come in the top. And the very first filter I put things, well, the first filter I put all the leads through is location.

If it's in a bad location, period, I won't buy it. But secondly, I look at the rules of thumb. If I think by the rule of thumb, it might make sense, then I'll actually maybe go and dive deeper. I'll drive by it or I'll make an offer or I'll do a really in-depth analysis or whatever. So it's nice to hear that you kind of do the same thing, which is nice because you're a rock star at this. So that's awesome. All right. So once you got the property built, let's say again, use those numbers, buy the lot for 30, put in 100.

You got 130 into it. What could you at that point sell it for if you wanted to? I mean, let's say you didn't want to rent it. Like what kind of equity do you build into those properties? Well, I mean, that house, if I was to guess, that house would probably sell for maybe $180,000. Okay. But don't forget, then you have closing cost on it. So I might net out $170 on it.

Okay. So, you know, I might have the room in that if the market changed, if it started to drop 10%, you'd be okay. Right. And that's smart. And I'll back up a minute. Usually the banks will, will make you, they're going to make you have 10%, you know, of your hard money in the deal or, you know, usually, you know, 70% loan to value. Okay, so you've got to also have that value built in as well.

Okay, yeah. And the great thing about it is, and again, I'm a tax guy. You know, I started out in tax. And so if you think about it, if I sell the house, I've got to pay income tax, ordinary income tax on $30,000, right? But if I keep it, I pay zero tax. Yep. Think about that for a second.

I still made the $30,000 because I made it when I completed the house. It's just is an asset, not in cash. So it's kind of interesting that, hey, I just made $30,000 and I don't pay any tax on it. And this is another beautiful thing is if I rent it for a year and sell it, then I pay capital gains tax. I don't pay ordinary income tax. Long-term capital gains, that's awesome. It's one of the, like, when you compare somebody who flips houses or wholesales to, like, their tax bill to a buy and hold investor, it's like shockingly different. I mean, there's ways to offset income when you're a flipper or wholesaler.

But at the end of the day, like, yeah, the government really seems to like, or the tax, IRS seems to really like buy and hold investors better. Right. Yeah. Oh, definitely. And it's just, it's geared towards, you know,

that long-term investor, you know, and I think, you know, I think one reason why I've been successful at this is because I've been just, you know, I don't,

I don't try and pull money out of every single deal. You know what I'm saying? I've tried, you know, I've kept as many as I've could because I'm trying to think long-term wealth creation, not, hey,

can I put more money in my bank account to go out and buy a Ferrari? You know, I was like, I'd rather have that money in that house, working for me and growing and building even more wealth. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I love that. So what are the downsides to this whole build-rent thing?

I mean, why, like, this sounds awesome to me. I mean, like, you're dealing with higher-end contractors. You're not dealing with, you know. Brandon, this isn't tinker toy, so you can't build it. I can build it. So how do you do that? I mean, like, what are the downsides of this? Like, this sounds perfect to me.

Well, I mean, there are some downsides because, you know, in construction, I mean, Either one, you have to partner with a builder, you know, so that you have to deal with contractors. And if you're not dealing with subcontractors, then you, I mean, if you are building it yourself, subbing it out yourself, you are dealing with subcontractors, which can be very difficult, you know, because you've got to go through every element of construction and you're a superintendent. So you basically got yourself a full-time job. Yeah. So there's definitely a downside to it.

And then plus two, don't forget, you've got your capital, you know, for several months during construction, you're making no income. You know, so you've got a bill, you know, if I can just go and buy a rental, in a month, I've got income coming off of it. You know, this one, I'm paying on a construction perm or I'm paying, you know, paying on the use of my money during the whole construction period. Makes sense. Make sense.

Let's talk about construction. I mean, you know, typically contractors tend to be the guys next to tenants that get people the most problems, the biggest headaches. So obviously you've done pretty well for yourself building hundreds and hundreds of of homes, are you using the same contractors you've used for the past 10, 15 years? Have you had to shift a lot? How does somebody go about finding great contractors? Well, I think I've just been really lucky. I've had a couple of different partners over the years. Now, usually what I found is I try and find a guy who's a little bit hungry, I guess, you know, because if you've got a pre-Madonna builder,

I call him, you know, he's going to want to make as much profit as he can on the job. You get a hungry guy. you can make a little bit better deals with them. And then I tell them, I was like, oh, we'll split profits. You know, we'll do a percentage of profits. And then when we sell the house, we get a percentage of profit. But I'll always put in there, hey, look, if I decide to keep this or I can't sell it, I'll buy you out at X amount, whatever that is. You know, a fair buyout would be like $8,000 or $9,000.

So then I, so that's what I, that's what I found that works really well for me. On the percentage of profits, I don't know if you'd be willing to share what percent would you offer out to somebody potentially? Oh, we, I always do 50-50 because I wanted them to feel like, you know, hey, they're in, you know, we're in this together. So, and like I said before, I mean, what I found out is the builders usually, after they work with me a few times, they would lot rather, even though they can make 100% if they do a spec themselves, a lot of times they like to do, because I'm handling all the bookkeeping. And they notoriously hate to handle that part of the business and deal with the banks and deal with the financing and deal with all that. And since my

accounting background. It's like it just, you know, they like to focus on the building and let me focus on the paperwork and it just makes their life so much easier because the fun part's built in the house. You know, the miserable part's doing the paperwork. So I take that from him. So, and I'll tell you what, I told my, one of my sons one time, you know, hey, you know, he's like, what do you dad? I was like, well, I build houses. Well, he went to go watch me build houses. You know, so I took, you know, he's thinking Bob the builder. He was so disappointed when he saw that I was like, well, you know, this is what I do to build houses. You know, I kind of, you know, I kind of, you know, I look at spreadsheets and this is how I build them.

You know, when you think about it, I build, you know, probably 500 homes now and I've never picked up a hammer. That's awesome. And I literally never drove in a nail. So, I think the way that I've been able to grow my business and be able to have 100 doors is because I haven't done that. You know, I'm really trying to take it from, I'm an investor. You know, I'm going to invest in this. I'm going to let other people do the labor part of it. And I'm going to worry about finding the best deal I can and max up.

the profit on each individual deal. I love that. I said that before that that was my downfall in scaling the first number of years of my, you know, investing because I knew how to do it. I knew how to swing a hammer and it hurt me. And so, yeah, people out there listening don't know how to swing a hammer. Don't think that's a problem. Think that that's an asset you have.

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I'm not really sure. I mean, they'd have to kind of figure out their skill set. You know, usually, I mean, there's a lot of ways to plug in because there's been times where maybe we have a really big project. And of course, I don't have the capital to do that. Maybe we get in a third partner and we split things three ways. And then I do all the accounting that the builder builds the houses and the third partner provides the money, you know, or it gets the financing. So, I mean, there's ways to plug in, you know, I think in any deal, you just need to figure

out what you bring, you know, what value you bring and then try to use that skill set, you know, whatever you have in your past. You know, what if it's your real estate agent and you find the deal, you know, and put it together that way. I mean, there's always a way to bring your expertise into the deal. Yeah, right on.

Cool. So how many employees do you have today? Like, I know you said you had 14 or whatever it was or 12 or 14 at the peak of the market. What do you have today? I have actually zero employees now. Really? So,

yes. And you're still doing lots of these things. Right. And I'll tell you what happened was after the market collapse, I tell you, I decided when I got on the opposite end of the market craft, that I was going to learn how to scale my business again without having any employees. Because at the time, you know, I had, you know, I had a project manager, superintendents.

My business partner, you know, was the licensed builder. And we had office staff. We had, you know, a full-time maintenance person. We had a property manager. I mean, we had all these people. And when the market collapsed, I mean, you know, we had to lend a lot of those people go. And then also, too, before the crash, I mean, I wasn't real happy with what I was doing because I was, I was an owner operator. I was managing people. You know, I was doing all, I was, you know, I was doing all the

management of this. So it, it wasn't, it wasn't passive income at that point. So I decided, well, hey, when I do this again, you know, I'm going to scale it, you know, I'm going to be a complete investor. So what I've learned, what I can do is, is just about any element. My property management is all, I hire a property manager for that. You know, I have a real estate agent who finds the lots. The builders, I, like I mentioned before, I partner with the builders, you know, so I don't, I don't need any employees. My wife comes in and cuts all the checks for, you know, what I told you that we, the part we do. But we've been able to, we've been able to scale extremely nicely without having to have any employees.

That's great. And it just shows that like there's definitely, you can be successful and highly successful without having a huge team. You don't have to build up 20, 30, 50 employees. And, you know, you can just rock at it anyway. So that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that's the thing. I mean, sometimes some people need to make that decision. Do they want to be an owner-operator, you know, and, like, operate their business and have a bunch of employees and manage them, you know, and at this point in my life, I'm trying, I was like, well, I want to grow this and I want to take the investment route. You know, I'm going to be purely investor. I'm using my own personal capital and my knowledge base of how to put these houses together and put these deals together. And I'm just in, you know, I put the deals together and invest in them and then bring on the people to actually do all the work. And then they get it, they get a nice piece of it, you know, so they're happy. Like I said, they're, they're happy as they can be because they'll make, they'll make more money doing it my way than if I just paid them a salary. Yeah, that makes sense. I love it. So you said that the agent finds the lots for you.

Are you guys buying just raw land or are you guys also buying properties that require tear down? We sometimes buy, we sometimes buy tear downs. We do that, some infill properties. And then since I've been around long enough that some of the developers will come to me and say, hey, I've got 10 lots. or do you want to buy into this development? You know, so I do get something that way.

But the vast majority of lots, I would say, that we do get are just, you know, MLS lots or, you know, lots that, you know, I do send out some letters. Sometimes if I drive by a lot, you know, that I like and I'll send out a letter and say, hey, are you interested in selling? Nice. Just for, you know, the sanctity of curiosity, I'm guessing a lot of people wonder, what does it cost to actually tear down a property? say a $1, $1,500 square foot property and clear it out. What's that going to run about? I'll tell you, it's pretty expensive. I mean, I think every market would be different because, I mean, it depends on where you

could take the, you know, there's what's called clean fill. Like if you, like, clear a lot, it's real cheap to throw that because you can put that in a borrower pit. Like, if you pull dirt out, you can put debris back in from like tree stumps and things like that, but houses have like, you know, contaminants in them and stuff, so they have to take them to a different pit. So, I mean, it could be as high as, I would say, 10 or 15,000 dollars. So I've seen some properties that maybe the lot's only worth 10 and it's going to cost you $15,000 to tear down. I mean, that lot, you mean, even if they gave you the lot, it wouldn't

be a good value. So you need to be very careful when you buy houses that, you know, or buy houses that are tear downs. Exactly. Exactly. Great, great, great. Awesome information. Thank you so much. Yeah, I love it. Well, hey, why don't we shift gears here and move over to the world famous the fire round. It's time for the fire round. All right,

the world famous fire round. These questions come direct from the Bigger Pockets Forum. So we're going to fire them right at you, Cameron. Are you ready for it? I'm ready. Okay.

You don't have a choice, so we're throwing a match anyway. Number one. What type of building should a new investor consider constructing to make the safest money? Is there a safe

type of new construction. I would say just from my experience, because I have built commercial, like commercial, and I have built multifamily. But I would say your safest bet would be, you know, a modest single family home. Because when you get into commercial and multifamily, you have to sell that to another investor. Whereas when you get into a modest single family home, if you get into a pinch, that, you know, you can sell that all day long to, just a family or you can sell it to another investor. You have both options available to you. Awesome advice. That's great. All right. All right. If I'm looking to build a spec home, what makes a good lot?

You know, location, location, location. I mean, you need to, you know, we really look at schools, you know, make sure they're in a good school districts. And then we also try and get nicer, newer communities. You don't want to have a brand new house next to, you know, an older development where all the houses are kind of in bad shape. Cool. Make sense. I like it. Next question.

If I'm brand new to a city and brand new to real estate, what are my, my first steps I should do. If I want to get involved in real estate and I'm brand new to a city. Oh, that's a tough one. I mean, if there's a local RIA, I mean, you could get involved in that. See, like, here, we don't have a local RIA. So if I was in an area that didn't, I would probably try to meet with other successful real estate people. And everyone says, how do you find them? We'll just go on Craigslist. You know, and if you see the same name over and over again, that's the guy you want to talk to, you know, or like a rental. You look in the rental, and you see, hey, this guy has several different rental properties, then try and reach out to him and, you know, talk to him. I've got another way to do it.

Do you? Oh, yes, I do. What's that, Josh? Go on bigger pockets. Oh, yes. There's a couple things you could do. One, if there's no local meetup group in your area, you can go on bigger pockets and say, hey, I'm looking at a creative meetup group or group, you know, in Pensacola.

Cool. Now, everybody who's got a keyword alert set up for Pensacola is going to see it, and they're going to jump in. Also, obviously, you want to set a keyword alerts. On that note, I went to a meetup last night up here in the south of Tacoma, Washington. It's like 70 people showed up because they all had keyword alerts. Oh, wow. Yeah, 70 people at a local meetup. We had at a RAM restaurant, and it was amazing.

Yeah. So, you know, set up keyword alerts for your city, for your zip code, things like that. And then if you go to biggerpockets.com slash meet, you can do it. search and find local folks. So we've got all these cool tools to help people find other people, other successful investors in their area and get together. Sorry for the plug and sorry to interrupting the fire round, but I got to do what I got to do. Good job. All right. Last question on the fire round. Should I pay off my mortgage or reinvest my inheritance? And this comes from somebody who inherited about $200,000. So would you pay off your mortgage or reinvest

that inheritance. I really think it depends on your goals. You know, I mean, if you, and the other thing, too, is, I mean, I struggle with this all the time because I have, you know, people at church or people who know me in the community know I do a lot of investing, you know, they'll come into me and they'll say, oh, I want to, you know, I want to get a rental property. Well, if you're just going to get one rental property, I mean, it's really tough. I mean, because you're, you almost need a portfolio of rental properties because when you do have that tenant that wrecks the property, then that's spread out over several rentals. Yeah.

You know, and then also, too, some people, I've had other people get rentals and they can't sleep at night. You know, the tenant doesn't pay them. And, I mean, they literally makes them sick, you know, so, I mean, it's just, you kind of got to see if that, if, I tell people put your pinky toe in, you know, and see if it's for you, you know, before you go and spend your whole inheritance, I'm buying this huge portfolio of rentals and make sure that it's something that, you know, which fits your skill set, also something that you can deal with, because some people just cannot be

landlords. That is so true. Very true. Yeah, very cool. All right, well, let's move on. But before we go to the famous four, I do want to ask you the question that I'm asking people every week now because I like this question. How many hours a week do you work? Let's see.

I probably, this time of year, because I still do a little bit of tax work. So this time of year, I probably work 45, 50 hours a week. And that includes tax work. Yeah, that includes tax work. How about just on your real estate? Real estate, it's tough to say because, I mean, some of it's just fun. You know, like, you know, looking through Craigslist and kind of, you know, looking at, you know, looking at, I'm playing a little bit in Deltona, Florida.

You know, I'm buying some rentals down there. So I'm kind of, which is central Florida. So about six hours away. So I've kind of been, you know, looking at different markets and stuff. And I guess it's work, but I mean, that kind of stuff's more fun to me. So I don't really count that as work. So, okay. Right on.

Cool. I like that. That's the sign of a good work then, you know, a good job. Because you like it. Yeah, of course. Right. Cool. All right.

Well, hey, let's close this thing up with the world famous. Famous for All right, these questions are asked of every guest every week And I know you've listened to our show many times Maybe most of them So you know exactly what's coming Number one Right

What is your favorite real estate related book Okay now I had to think really hard about this Because I really tried to come up with something That not everyone has said So but it's not directly at real estate But I really suggest a lot of people read this It's an easy read It's a very small book

It's called The Richest Man in Babylon I don't know if you heard of it, heard of it. I think it's by Claustin. Yep. Right. So, and it's, you know, it kind of changes your mindset, you know, how, okay, you know, how to become an investor instead of, you know, working, you know, working day and night, you know, the rest of your life. Great trust. Yeah.

What about business books? My favorite business book is Thou Shall Prosper by Rabbi Daniel Lapton. I think somebody else mentioned that on an early show, because I remember that name. Right. It is a great book. I mean, if you're, if you're in any kind of business, you get the audio book or read the book. But in, you know, I know, Josh, you've mentioned before that it kind of comes from that spiritual side of, you know, hey, you know, building wealth is, I don't know, there's, there's been in the media. They've kind of make it out like, oh, you're the bad guy, you know, the one percenters, you know, you're, you know, building wealth is, you know, you're almost the villain. But that kind of comes from, hey, we're kind of obligated to build wealth because, you know, not only are, you know, Is it great because, you know, hey, we can, you know, my family supports orphanages in India. You know, that's kind of, you know, what we do. We couldn't do that if we hadn't built wealth, you know. And not only that, my family will never have any need of charity.

Because of that, we don't have to take resources from someone else. So it frees up even more resources to even more people. I mean, so it kind of goes through the spiritual aspect. Okay, you're, you know, it's moral to try and build and create and sustain wealth. Cool. Yep. Yeah, I'm going to add that to my list because, Yeah, you're the second person that's told me to read that.

So I'm going to read that now. Cool. Yeah, great book. Hobbies. Hobbies. What do you do for fun? Well, I mean, you're not going to believe this, but I got five kids. So, they keep me really, really busy.

Brandon, four more to go on top of this one. Yeah, you need to catch up, Brandon. I need to get going. I'll work on that. I'll work on it right away. Number four. What do you believe sets apart successful investors from those? who give up, fail, or never get started.

You know, I've heard this question before, and this, you know, it's a difficult question because it's hard to put your finger on it. I think it goes back to, it's kind of hard from, you know, our point of view and probably most of the listeners right now point of view, you know, we kind of want people to think like us. My dad's, my dad always said,

there's people who signed the front of checks, there's people who sign the back of checks, you know, never the two shall meet. So in other words, some people, they're God just designed to work nine to five. So sometimes we're like, oh, they should be doing what we're doing, building all these houses or, you know, building all these rental properties. There's this huge portfolio and everything, you know, but if that's not their design, you know, they're not going to be successful at it. So, I mean, so I'm thinking, you know, if people are listening to this podcast or watching us on YouTube, I mean, you've already taken that first step. You're probably the person who's going to be signing the front of checks. So, you know, you need to, you know, build as much, you know, as much knowledge base as you can, you know, listening to the podcast. going on the blogs, trying to learn as much as you can, and that's what will make you successful. That's great. Yeah.

I love that quote, by the way. On the front of the back of checks, that's cool. We're going to probably do something with that. Well, Cameron, it's been a pleasure. Where can people find out more about you? Where can they find you online? Well, the easiest way to find me is on Bicker Pockets. I usually hang around the accounting and tax, you know, and answer questions people.

So I feel like I answer the same question over and over again, but I do try to answer people's questions on the accounting and tax section. But yeah, just, you know, send me a private message on bigger pockets. I try to answer everyone who sends me a private message. That's awesome. Well, we appreciate your help on that too. I mean, it's great to have just experienced guys. I mean, this is, there's people like Cameron in the forums answering questions who have done hundreds of deals and they're just volunteering their time to help out other people. I love it. So thank you, Cameron. That's great. That's great. Cam, thank you so much for coming on the show. We really do appreciate it. And we'll see you background on the forums. All right. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you.

All right, guys, that was Cameron Skinner. Big thanks again to Cameron for coming on the show for obviously all of his help in the forums to everybody who's got those accounting and other questions. And of course, for sharing his story, fascinating, fascinating stuff. And I know Brandon is super excited to go get his new construction on. I'm going to build a new house this year. I don't know if I could do it in my area. I really like maybe that's a limiting belief. But I see so many like empty lots that builders just are still trying to sell.

I mean, like, and even new houses, people. And even build the house in my town since like 1930. And you'll be that guy. I mean, you'll be the guy that destroys all the historic buildings and turns it over for new construction trash. That's what I'm going to do. We don't have a problem with land out here. We live in the middle of nowhere. I don't have to tear down nothing for land.

Yeah. Nah. I mean, you know, look up, look. Do the math, right? And if you can find the property, the land for cheap enough, make it happen. Come on. I'm excited. Yeah.

I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. Maybe I'll do it an Olympia. We've talked about this. I think it's time for you to stretch out of your own little farm there and, you know, move out of the boonies. Maybe I will do it in Olympia. That's about 40 miles, 30 miles from my house. So I can do that. Yeah. That's big area. It's a capital. People have jobs there. You know, that's huge. There's like, what, 600 people there. And a lot less meth. All right. So let's get out of here. Do you want to take us out? Thanks, guys. We definitely appreciate you listening. Please jump on iTunes. Leave us a rating and review. Jump all the forums. Great in account. get involved in the biggest and best social network online for real estate investors. Facebook? And Facebook. For real estate investors. Facebook's better for real estate investors? I don't say better. I just, you know, just throwing that out there.

I don't know. Really? I'm confused. And anyway, yeah, spread the word. Share the podcast with your friends, with your family, with your colleagues, with your coworkers, let people know that there is an option out there for them to build wealth besides sitting behind a desk at a cubicle in misery. Not that you are all doing that, but lots of people are caught up in that.

And real estate investing is an option to get out and Baker Pockets is here to help you guys do that. So thank you for listening. We'll see you next time. I'm Josh Dorkin. Signing off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio. Simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype,

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