BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 180: 58 Deals by Age Twenty-Three with Devan McClish

Episode Date: June 23, 2016

What were you doing at 23 years old? Probably not building 17 houses like today’s guest! That’s right — our guest today on the BiggerPockets Podcast is Devan McClish, a real estate investor from Nashville who’s done nearly 60 deals in just the past couple years — using almost no money of his own. You’ll learn how Devan finds deals, raises money, works with contractors, and so much more. This show will go down as one of the greatest in BiggerPockets history — so don’t miss a second of it!   In This Episode We Cover: How Devan got started learning real estate when he was 18 How he convinced a mentor to teach him His first deal 3 years later How to avoid the shiny object syndrome How he landed deals through direct mail How he initially funded his deals Living on $15,000 for a year How to deal with peer pressure when you’re “going cheap” The worst mistake he’s made so far The biggest challenge in the beginning Why finding the deal is harder than finding the money How Devan finds deals Tips on driving for dollars His future goals And SO much more! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Job Opening BiggerPockets Events Advertise with BiggerPockets BiggerPockets Store Books Mentioned in this Show Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill How I Turned $1,000 into Five Million in Real Estate in My Spare Time by William Nickerson The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham Tweetable Topics: “While my friends are out drinking, I stay at home and try to find the next deal.” (Tweet This!) “Instead of spending $300/month on a brand new car, I’d rather spend that to get another 300 yellow letters out.” (Tweet This!) “Whenever they say you can’t do this, I say watch me do it.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Devan Devan’s BiggerPockets Profile Devan’s Facebook Profile Devan’s Twitter Profile Devan’s Landing Page Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show. 180. I'm 23 years old. 23 years old and you've done one deal, right? Crazy. No, I've done 42 deals just this year alone. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place.

Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from. BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorkin. Host to the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host, Daddy. Brandon Turner. What is going on?

Oh, life is so good. Life is so good right now. Yeah, man. It's like an hour of night, but it's amazing. I love it. Brandon, it is, today, it is June 21st. We are two days out from Father's Day. just passed, you are a new father. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, three weeks ago, my wife gave birth

the little rosy and four hours of labor for a first kid, which is crazy. That's ridiculous. Yeah, it was weird. Every woman listening is jealous. It was amazing, though. Oh, my gosh. It was amazing. So, yeah, being a dad is like the best thing I could have ever imagined. Now I know why you like talk about, you know, being so cool. My kids all the time. Yeah. It's the best thing ever. It is. It is definitely life-changing and we're very, very happy for you guys. And Rosie's the cutest. She's adorable. She's really cute.

And thank you for splashing Rosie all over my Facebook, Twitter, and everywhere else. It'll keep going for 18 years. Sorry. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. Nah, man, congrats, congrats, congrats. Thanks.

Yeah. What are you going out to? Traveling. Yeah. Yeah. We haven't actually taped a show in a few weeks here. Yeah. But yeah, I was up in Maine for a wedding.

I was in Boston for a bar mitzvah. Yeah, brought the family. We did. We never fat in a pack out and the have a dad. Yeah, traveling on the East Coast was amazing. Looking at the beaches and the lighthouses in Maine was just, it was so cool. And Boston, we just, we were a hardcore. We went, we saw Red Sox game,

was amazing, went to all the historic sites, and just getting to experience, like, you know, American history and seeing all these sites was, it was cool. You know, definitely took on some new meeting this year, and it was fantastic. And now we're back and back at it and plugging away. And, you know, man, BP, lots of changes, lots of things happening. We got new people coming on.

We got, you know, internal changes. It's been really excited. I mean, just watching this business grow. and take on a life of its own has been just a real honor. And of course, since I'm talking about this, we are hiring, by the way. You can go to biggerpockets.com slash jobs

if you are looking for a job. Right now, we're hiring developers, UI, UX, designer, and assistant for you still, right? Assistant slash office manager for me and the office here. So if you want to get Josh coffee and rub his shoulders,

he's got a job for you. All right. So today's show is absolutely incredible. Oh, my God. One of the best we've ever done. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it was phenomenal to use your word. If you listen, if you look at the title, you know, 58 deals by 23, I don't think it quite can sink in because this guy, our guest today is he's just, he's got his head on so straight.

And he is just all about trying to make it happen. And, you know, he does not take rejection. He does not take failure. He sits. He plots. He plans. And he executes. And it's incredible.

So, you know, don't be dissuade if you're 60 years old or if you're 80 years old or if you're 30 years old. We can all learn from this little S-H-I-T of a 23-year-old who is not that at all. He's unbelievable. He is unbelievable. I can't say it enough times. I'm like super excited for like our listeners to hear what we just heard like so good. Yeah, it's incredible. Before we do, why don't we get to today's quick tip?

All right, today's quick tip, really quick. All right, that was good. Moving on to it. All right, on to today's sponsor. Did you miss that? Sorry, I was really fast. It was too quick. All right, today's quick tip is you have that problem.

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Yeah, well, let's get to the show. So today's guest, Devin McClish, is a real estate investor from Nashville. And yes, that's right. He is 23 years young and has done 58 deals, which include rehabs. He's done buying home, new construction. I mean, you name it. And it's amazing.

And I don't know. Do you want to add anything before we bring in this guy? No. We've kept them in enough suspense. Let's do it. Let's do it. All right. Devin, welcome to the show, man.

It's good to have you here. I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me, guys. Yeah, this should be fun today. You might be our youngest guest we've had yet. I'm not sure if we've had anybody younger than you. How old are you? I'm 23 years old.

23 years old and you've done one deal, right? Freezy. No, I've done 42 deals just this year alone. Holy crap. All right. Wow. So that's like the end of the show. So we're going to rewind and go to the very beginning.

When did you start this when you were like six? I think he drops the mic and walks away. End of show. 23-year-old. Come on, man. That's just ridiculous. So how many decades have you been doing this? Half a decade.

So I started when I was 18 years old. Okay. So let's go back there and get your story from 18 on. You're basically high school age at that point, right? Just graduated or pre? Yeah, I had just graduated. I'd gone to college, you know, spent a lot of money doing that for no reason. Came back.

There was a guy, one of my good friends in high school, he was a big real estate attorney in the town that I'm from. He also owned a lot of real estate, and he always had a beach volleyball game every other week at his house. Really, really quick, maybe I'm a sundress. So this attorney guy is befriending the high school kids to go play beach volleyball. Sounds a little weird, like, hey, guys, take your shirt off and play volleyball in the sun. Pretty much. Yeah, there's a bunch of old guys and a bunch of young guys. His son was one of my really good friends in high school.

And so I just showed up one day and I was like, man, why do you have this big house, 100 acres, this beach volleyball court? What's going on, man? And he told me it was real estate. And he told me to come over that night in order to talk more about real estate. And so I brought over some pizza. And every other time that we played volleyball, he would tell me more and more about what he does. And that's kind of how I got started. That's cool.

So I want to talk about this guy. What made, what do you think made him excited to tell you about real estate? I mean, a lot of newbies that I talked to. They're like, well, you know, I want to approach this guy. I want to approach these local investors, but they would never deal with me. They don't want to waste their time talking to me. How did he talk to you? Like, why?

Well, he actually didn't want to talk to me. I actually had to be down his door. I had to keep asking him what he was doing. Why is he so successful? And there was actually one day where I went to his real estate office and I said, you're going to tell me how you're doing this. And then he gave me two books to go read, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and Think and Grow Rich and told me to read those. And then he'd sit down with me. And then from there, he just told me that I needed to get started in residential. He was a commercial

investor at the time. And then if I found a deal, he would help me with that deal. That's cool. That's cool. Okay. So you got connected with this guy. You started talking with him and teaching you what you do. What was your first deal like that way? And what happened next? The first deal actually didn't happen until last year, so I was 21. So I did the door knocking thing. I sent out letters, but I was very inconsistent. And if that's one thing that I would really press on new investors is stick to one thing. If I would have just stuck to the door knocking, the pre-foreclosures, I mean, I was changing from pre-foreclose leads to absentee owners to people who live in the house, to old people, the young people, to all different kinds of people I was trying to target.

and I never stayed consistent with it. And I learned that lesson over the three years. I never did a deal. I had deals fall apart at the closing table for one reason or another. I would go through Craigslist. I would send out mail. I would try the bandit signed thing. I would do flyers.

I would try to find bird dogs. Nothing worked, but I never stuck to anything. And so finally, after college, whenever I was working an $8 an hour job at Office Max, I was like, I'm tired of living like this. So we're just going to do this thing. and that's when I just decided I'm going to take all my money that I had, which is not a whole lot,

and put it all under direct mail, and that's where I am today. And I got my first deal, quadruplex, and then simultaneously I had a wholesale happen at the exact same time. That's awesome. It's such a good advice. Yeah,

I mean, it's so easy for the shiny object thing to happen for people. Like, oh, they're talking on the podcast about this, and they're talking about this, and I'm going to try this and this. And it's like, you know, focus, focus, focus. I mean, the people who put their head down and stick to one thing and get really good at it.

Once you've done that, then you can spread out, then go on to the next thing and the next thing. But, you know, win at one before you go to a million things. I ask people a lot like, you know, newbies that I'm talking to that are looking for help, whatever, they'll say, I can't find a deal. I'm like, well, what are you doing to find a deal? Well, you know, I hand wrote a couple of letters last week. And, you know, I drove for dollars a couple weeks ago. and then I, you know, I talked to an agent a couple of months, you know, last month and he sent me over a list. Like it's just, they just do a couple random things here and there.

Hap hazard. Yeah, haphazardly just kind of like throwing crap at the wall. And like, yeah, I love your approach. If you know, I'm done with this life. I'm done with $8 an hour. I'm going to do direct mail and I'm going to stick with it. And I'm just going to do it. Well, and even if you're not just finding direct mail, it all comes down to finding the deal.

You know, do everything you can to find the deal. There is one investor that I met with one time. He's a mentor to me now. and he told me that if I'm not analyzing and making an offer on a house per day, I'm not doing enough to last in this business. And I really took that to heart. And I do that now. I actually try to make two offers every single day. That's amazing. I was going to say, we just built this lead manager for bigger pockets. It hasn't officially been released yet, but it'll be out pretty soon if it's not out yet. But the basic idea is that you've got to make more offers. You've got to analyze more deals.

got to get out there and start doing this. So let's help you track that a little bit. So, I mean, that's definitely in Josh's heart, definitely in my heart. You've got to get out there and take action on this stuff and you can't just sit and wait for it. Oh, yeah. And just really quickly, you know, that's one of the things that Brandon talks about on the webinars that he does and we do those webinars once a week, you know, try to educate people, help them, teach them. People can find out more at at biggerpockets.com slash webinar to see what's coming up. But yeah, I mean, you know, being consistent, I think that's where a lot of the novices who never actually get that first deal, they fail. And as Brandon mentioned, that's why we're building this lead manager.

And we got some other cool stuff that we're working on, really just trying to help people stay motivated, stay on the bowl, and be more methodical about how they're managing and tracking things. Because once you did that, things changed, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So once I had everything down and I just decided this is what I'm going to do, I just put the pedal to the metal and I just said, you know, these are my goals. These are the goals that I need to reach this

year and there's no excuses to not make those goals for this year. And so I just sat down and said, all right, how many letters do I need to send to hit these goals? How many doors do I need to knock? How many wholesalers do I need to talk to? How many agents do I need to talk to? And the other thing is, is if you have local meetups that you can go to, there's no excuse for you not to go to those meetups. You know, 90% of the people you meet there probably aren't going to be worth your but the 10% that are, they're going to help you go a long way in this business. And if there's not a meetup, let's, you know, go go put on your own. Bigger pockets.

Yeah. Get a bigger pockets. Right, right. Just start one. I mean, there's no reason. Exactly. Biggerpockets.com slash events, our new event page. You can start one and, yeah, see who can come to your local event.

I didn't actually win last night. I went to one in Lakewood, Washington. I mean, like, 25 people. Got some really, really good advice. It was amazing. That's cool. All right, so let's talk about this quad deal. That was your first, I mean, you did a quad and a wholesale, but I'm curious. So what was it about this that kind of got you going? How did this turn out to be that first deal for you? Well, my long-term goal is to build passive income. And, you know, I looked at this quadruplex as something that could really kick off a lot of cash in order to provide more money to mail. Because that is ultimately what I wanted to do is I wanted to send out more. mail to get more deals in order to get towards those goals. So this quadruplex, it was a $105,000 purchase,

and I knew that it needed some rehab. So we ended up putting $40,000 into the rehab. We had an inherited tenant that we needed to kick out. So that was a learning experience. I had to sub-meter all the utilities because they were all connected to one master meter. But once we did that and we finally stabilized everything, it now brings in $2,800 a month. So, yeah, it's a cash cow and it's a good area that I really like and I'm going to hold on to it for the next five or ten years until I get rid of it, go on to the next thing. That's awesome. How did you finance that?

We actually paid cash for that and then I turned around and refinanced it with a local bank. So working at office, Max, you don't have a very good tax return to go in there. And seasoning was also another problem. So I had to walk into about 10 banks and I just decided I'm going to walk into every bank in Nashville and find one that's going to give me the money right after I purchased this thing. And I found one, and they ended up getting all my money back out and it worked out extremely well. So you were 21 years old. You didn't have $105,000 cash in your bank account, did you?

No, I actually brought my mom in on that deal. So my mom spent an investor on a couple of my deals. But if you don't have the money, you can always find a partner like her, you know. and we split the profits 50-50 because without her, I don't have the deal. So I'd rather have 50% of the deal than 100% of no deal. There you go. So, yeah. I love that.

I love that. And, you know, people are probably listening going, oh, well, yeah, his mom. Yeah, his mom, yeah. I don't have a rich mom. Yeah, my mom's not loaded. Well, like, the thing is I say this all the time, right? Like, everybody has an unfair advantage. Everybody has something in their life.

You know, like I had my parents help me on my first couple deals. Well, you had a rich mom too, Brian. Rich mom, poor mom. So they help me out on, you know, but at the same time, like, I know other people who have other advantages as well. And so like everything in your life, you have something that will work. It's just a matter of, do you have the mindset that's going to put those things together or not?

Exactly. Yeah. I like how you said that, you know, your intent was to take the cash flow from this and use that towards your marketing. So if you're doing that, you're 22, 21. what are you living off of? Are you living at home with your folks and kind of being, you know, living off the cheap? Or what are you doing? Yes. And while my friends are out drinking, I stay at home and I try to find the next deal. But I personally didn't take any of the cash flow to live off of.

And so that wholesale was actually something that allowed me to move forward and live off of. And I, you know, I'm able to live off of 15,000 a year and move forward. And move forward. because I know that if I can use the money from the deal to not live on, but to find the next two deals, it's going to generate a lot more money and live below my means, then I can grow my business to scale a lot faster. By the age of 25, I'd really like to take this to a whole new level. Devin, that's impossible. You can't live off 15K. It can't be done. Sorry. Yeah, sorry. How do you do that?

I mean, again, I think people are sitting here saying that's impossible. It can't be done. I mean, you have the advantage of living at home, yeah? Yes, yes. Okay, but I mean, beyond that, you're not going out drinking with your buddies. You're probably just being smart about your money, right? Yeah, I mean, you know, instead of going to see the newest, hottest X-Men that's in the theaters, why don't you wait until it comes out on Red Box and spend a dollar as opposed to $10, you know? It's just little things like that that you can be frugal in your lifestyle

and not spend a whole bunch of money on things that you, you know, you know, you're just little things that you don't need, you know, that's just the main thing. Don't accumulate a lot of debt. Don't go buy a new car and finance it. I would rather, instead of spending $300 a month on a brand new car, I'd rather spend that $300 a month to get another 300 yellow letters out. I love that. I love that.

That's awesome. So do you have a car? I do, and it's paid cash for it. So I refuse to finance any type of car. And, you know, I'm going to beat Brandon to get in the next Tesla. But that'll be down the road. I need to do another five deals before I can buy the next test. What's funny is I'm thinking that same thing lately.

Like I'm like, I really want a Tesla. And I also want a new truck. Like I just sold my trucks. I want like a good big truck. And I'm like, but man, if I got a truck payment, if I go have a $500 month truck payment or something or a Tesla payment, $800 a month or I'm like, that's mailing I can't send out. That's a property I can't buy.

Exactly. Yeah. I love that mentality. Man, you're an inspiration. It's awesome. I refuse to do that. And the people that around me that do that, I just cringe. I'm like, you know, you guys are throwing away so much money

that you could build your business and scale your business a lot faster if you just sat down and stopped spending money. Well, how do you deal with the peer pressure? Because surely your buddies are going to give you crap. I mean, I remember, you know, I've always been frugal and some may say really frigging cheap. I won't go there. I won't go there.

Everybody. Everybody. Can I tell a quick story? So the first time that when I first came on board here at Bigger Pockets. I'm still talking about it's living here. Hold on. When I first came on to Bigger Pockets. Josh set me to a conference.

He's like, hey, you should go to this conference in San Francisco. But I don't want to pay for a hotel room for you. So I'm going to find some random stranger for you to sleep in their bed. And so I said, no, I'll just sleep, stay at a hostel. And Josh's like, okay. So I paid for a hostel my first trip through Bigger Pockets. That's Josh. That's Josh.

That's Josh. Yeah. Team player, right. Wait a way to take one for the team. I was actually going to put you up in a nice... I know you were. I insisted on the hostel. And you did insist upon the hostel. Thank you very much. Because you got to stay in a room with three different women. Four British women. To the chagrin of your wife. Yeah, that was an interesting thing.

Let's really tell this story. All right, go on. All right, all right. But point being like, I used to get a lot of, you know, like it can feel uncomfortable if you do want to go out with your buddies. and everybody's buying drinks and you're there and you're like, yeah, I'm just going to get a soda or something. And, you know, for three bucks instead of ten bucks a drink or fifteen bucks. And, you know, how does, as a young 20-year-old, I mean, there's got to be some pressure there. Yeah, so all the way through college, I dealt with people who asked me what I wanted to do and they told me I was crazy.

They said I was taking all these risks. And in my opinion, you're the one taking all the risk. You know, you want to go to medical school and, you know, spend $100 grand into debt. doesn't generate any income, you know, but I'm the one that's taking all the risk. That's fine. And then all my friends now, I've really just, you just need to get rid of the people in your life that are very negative. I mean, I would say I have less than five real friends that I talk to you on a daily basis and all of them are doing what I'm doing. And as far as the peer pressure goes, I use that as fuel to do the next deal. And so whenever they say, you know, you can't do this.

and all I say is watch me do it and then I'll come back and show you that I did it and then maybe you'll finally stop doubting me but if you don't that's fine I love it man I love it been there done that that's amazing kudos how many people told you that you couldn't build bigger pockets

like I remember you telling these stories of like every single like VC and investor and mentor you should give up you should give up I had friends who would like call me and just give me crap they'd be like hey look I just found a penny on the street. Here, let me send it to you because, you know, help you, help you eat some food.

Yeah. You can't make a website and give away free information. It just doesn't work that way, Josh. Did you know that? Yeah. Yeah. You use that as fuel and just run with it. That's, I mean, that's what I did. All right. So you've got this, so you got the quad generating 28K a month. You're living to- 2800 a month. 2800, thank you. Yeah. I added a zero. Excuse me. You're living on 15,000. You only need 15,000 a year to live. You did this first wholesale deal. So what did that wholesale deal look like? Because obviously that kind of gave you a spark of cash to help you kind of live and not have to use the cash flow from the rental to pay for your living expenses.

This wholesale deal was the biggest nightmare of my life. So I got the lead. It was an absentee owner. She was from Detroit of all places. Yeah. And she gives me a call. We talk a little bit about the house. I give her a price and she accepts it right off the bat.

And I'm just thinking to myself, I should offer 10 grand less, but that's fine. And so she doesn't have an email. She doesn't have a cell phone. She's an old woman. So I had to mail this contract to her. She got it back to me. It was signed. And then I went to go do my inspection on the inside of the house and I brought my

end buyer with me that I found on Craigslist. We both showed up to the house, and she had not informed the family members that were living there for free for the past 10 years. They hadn't paid utility bills, property taxes, anything. And so I and the bad guy in the situation, I got to walk up and say, you have to leave. I'm sorry that you've been living here for free for 10 years. And this was not in a good area of town. And this woman was all up in my face telling me, calling me a bunch of names that I probably can't repeat. Pete on here. And my end buyer, luckily he was an experienced buyer and he just walks up and

mitigates the situation. And then the one mistake that I made was in the contract. I said that the house had to be vacant. Well, whenever they finally left a month later, they left all their stuff. And so the end buyer comes in and says the contract says the house has to be vacant. So I'm on the phone. I'm like, I don't have anybody to come pick the trash up. So I'm in there picking the trash up. I call 1-800 got junk to come out there and pick it up and they took care of it for about an hour and a half, but they forgot all the stuff in the attic. So I had to go back out there, clean everything out of the attic, and they apparently left their grandfather, his ashes, up in the attic. And me, I am in here with, with, I ended up having my sister come with me.

And I throw this urine down and the ashes get all over my sister. Oh, Jesus. And so, you know, that was an experience in and of itself. But she was the best free labor that I could have gotten in that situation. You know, but we ended up making $10,000 on that deal. And then I just plugged that all right back into what I was doing. That's fantastic. A quick question.

And then I know Brandon's got some stuff. You had said the end buyer mitigated the situation. I'm sure this is a situation that a lot of people face and some people will just say, okay, you know what, I'm done, turn around, walk away. Some people fight it, you know. How did this guy come in here and smooth everything over for you? Well, he just walked in and said, you know,

here's our contract with the seller. You know, here's her signature, here's our signature, here's when the closing date is, and you need to be out by this time. And that was one of the terms in the contract that they needed to be out 30 days after the signing of that contract. And we were going to close 30 days after that, just in case we had to extend everything.

But he walked in and said, you know, I'm a landlord. I know other landlords. I can help you find the next place. And so what he did is he said, Devin, you're going to help them find the next place. But he just promised them that he would help. And then I stepped in and I helped them find the next place. So I ended up getting in touch with one of their family members

that lived about 30 minutes away, and I said, hey, here's a situation. I don't want to put anybody on the street, but they have to leave. You know, can you take them in while we help them find the next place that they can rent out? Right on. And so that's not, that's not something that I thought about, but an experienced investor in that situation was, I mean, he's very quick-witted, and he knew exactly what to say. So, yeah. They're real estate's a lot about solving problems, right? And it's not just about your own problems or, you know, the seller's problems. It's everybody's problem. I love how you navigated through that.

Exactly. Yeah. Cool. All right. So you, I think you said, what, 42 deals by 23 years old? What are those deals? I mean, are we talking all the wholesale? What are they?

It's 42 deals just this year, Brandon. Oh, okay. But he's only been doing it. No, it's short-changing, man. So the 42 this year, I've got 10 wholesale, six rehabs, 17 new construction, and nine rental units. You slow down and say that again. 10 wholesale, six rehabs.

17 new construction houses and nine rental units. So, yeah, I'm, I'm, let me, let me have you repeat that again because you said in your first year doing this, you've got 17 new construction houses. I, I get the 10 wholesales. I get the six rehabs. I don't fully get the 17 new construction houses in the course of 12 months for somebody as, I'm not doubting you. I want to hear how this all happens. How do you do 17 new construction houses? Have you established a big team already? Or what does everything look like? No, so I don't have anything in house,

but I have, after going through some growing pains with some contractors in our first one or two rehabs, I finally found a really good contractor and my mentor actually turned into a GC on top of being an investor. So I use both of them. They're really well. They have really well-run businesses as contractors,

which investors out there need to find contractors with well-run businesses, not just good contractors, because that kind of shows who they are as a person. But the 17 new construction, again, it comes back to finding the deal. So I was finding a lot of deals, and it finally was an eye-opening thing to me whenever I wholesaled something to a builder for $5,000 profit. I didn't even know the builder.

I had to use another investor, so we split the wholesale fee. So I made $2,500. And this other wholesaler is a builder himself as well, but he didn't have the cash at the time. And I asked him to walk me through the numbers on how much they're actually going to make on the deal. And I found out that they were going to make,

and this is just all speculation. You know, they could have went down in price on their and product. or they could have spent a little more to build. But the rough estimate was about 130 grand. And so a light bulb went off and said, why am I accepting $2,500 whenever they're going out and making $130,000?

And so that's kind of where the light bulb went off in my head. And I said, you know, this is something that I really want to do. And so I sat down with every major builder that would take my phone call, my email. I'd be down their door, just like I did that attorney. and I said, teach me how to do this. And so before I actually did the first deal, I knew exactly what the process was like.

They walked me through all the documentation. They walked me through the whole process. You know, you need this person, this person, this person, to do this. And so whenever an opportunity presented itself, I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. And then I went out and found the money for each one of these. Because I obviously didn't have the money to do any of these. I only have my money in one new construction. project right now. So I've been able to find money partners because the deals have been that good

that they can step in. I give them most of the profit. But again, it's all about scalability. There's no way that I could do 17 new construction on my own without other investors help. So yeah. And I want to talk about that a little bit about you know, there's a lot of stuff I want to cover in the last like two minutes of what you said there. But specifically, you're talking about raising money from private investors. You're using private money to fund these deals, but you're 23 years old. I hear that excuse all the time from younger people who says, well, you know, I can't raise money. I'm too young or I don't have the experience. I don't have all this, you know, I don't have years and years of, how do you do that? How are you able to raise money when you're young? So people actually want to help young investors

out, especially older experienced investors. They kind of see themselves where they were 20 years ago and they say, I want to help this guy get to where I am. But it has been a challenge. primarily with sellers when I walk in and I say, you know, I can give you 160 grand for this lot. They look at me and say, yeah, okay. But, you know, it hasn't been that big of a challenge. The biggest challenge in the beginning was experience. When I walked into banks and talked to other private investors, they would say, how many of you done?

And I would say, well, I haven't done any, but look how good the deal is, you know? So you just focus on the deal. And then you focus on the process and say, I know this is what needs to be. be done, this needs to be done, this needs to be done, this needs to be done. Oh, and by the way, since I don't have a whole, you know, 25 houses going on, I'll be on job site as much as you need me to be there. And so they can count on me. They can also count on my builder. My builder is an experienced builder. He's been doing this for 30 years. So they kind of piggyback off of his experience as well. But as long as the deal is good and the numbers are true of what you're saying,

and they run their own due diligence and it matches your numbers, they almost can't say no to the deal, especially when you're offering 60, 65, 70% of the deal to these guys. Wow, that's awesome. I love that. That is great. Again, because a couple of things you said there, the idea older investors love to help younger investors.

I found that so incredibly true in my life. And it's not, I mean, you don't have to be 23. I mean, you could be 40 and 60-year-old. New investors, not young. Yeah, not so young, but yeah, people, older people, older and more experienced love to help younger, when there's passion there, right? I mean, like, not, I don't want to waste my time helping somebody who's not passionate. Well, he's knocking down doors. Yeah, you're knocking down doors.

Yeah, I mean, it's just, I don't know, there's so much good advice on that what you just said there. So anybody listening who's new, who's inexperienced, like, take this to heart, listen to the show a couple times. You'll learn so much just from your, from what you said. I was going to say really quick, I think the biggest thing that, you know, that, I take away from you, Devin, is that you know, you're all hustle all the time. And, you know, you don't have to be all hustle all the time. I mean, you can enjoy your life too. But, you know, if you want to demonstrate to those potential mentors, to potential money partners, things like that, that you're somebody that could be trusted will prove it. Get out there and work your butt off.

Get out there and work your butt off. You know, you'll earn that through hard work. And that's the difference. And a lot of people, you know, we're like, yeah, well, you know, I don't know. I got a lot of other things going on. Well, then you're not going to have those opportunities. You either have resources or you have hustle, you have grit. You have something, as Brandon says, your unfair advantage. Yours is that you bust your butt. Yeah. Well, and raising money is actually not as scary as people might think. Okay. I would actually say finding the deal is harder than finding the money. There's a bunch of money out there. I'm pushing around a lot of money right now. And I've got investors texting me saying, hey, I've got this much, you know, since we just closed this deal.

Do you have anything else? You know, so if they question your experience as somebody who hasn't done a whole lot, what you just do is you turn the conversation around on them and say, yeah, but if you give me $100,000 for this, or my average new construction is, I would say about $180,000 all in from them. And I turn around and I'm going to give you $80,000 return on your money. So you get your $180 plus another $80. How do you say no to that?

You know, and that's what I tell them is, is this the kind of return? that you're looking for because this is what you're going to get. And even if I'm wrong, even if the deal slides 20 grand or 30 grand, you're still getting a fantastic return on your investment. And so that's what I tell them. How do you mitigate for the market turning? So you're in, I mean, you're in a pretty stable market down there. But, you know, let's say the economy hits the boot or something happens on those new construction projects. How do you, how do you, mitigate potential loss there? Well, first of all, you don't run your numbers based on being the biggest house and the most

expensive house in the neighborhood. I actually don't even like to be the middle-sized or in the mid-mid-priced house. So just to give you an example, one of our new construction projects, actually I've got nine in this one specific area. We're building smaller than everybody in the neighborhood, and we're also asking less than everybody in the neighborhood. So that's one way to mitigate your loss. Now, yes, you've got to make up for that on buying it even more right on the front end,

buying it at a cheaper price. But when the market turns, they're going to buy my cheaper house before they buy your more expensive house. That's one thing. Yes, the market can turn. That's very possible. But we have enough room in all of our investments that we can slide the deal. 50, sometimes 60, on one of them, we could probably go 70,000 down on each. each house and still break even.

So there's a lot of room in there. And when it all came down to it, me being the listing agent on every single one of these, if I had to cut my commission to zero to make sure my investor still makes money, I will do that. You forgot to mention that part. Which part? You're also a listing agent?

Yes. Yes, I am. Oh, so you're licensed? Yes, I am. You know, you're not hustling hard enough, Kevin. I think you got to do some other stuff here. Are you buying the land, just raw land, or are you actually tearing down houses? Both.

So most of the stuff is infill new construction, but there are a few parcels that we have bought that have been vacant land. Can you explain infill for those people who don't know what that means? I have no idea. Infill is where you have an existing house and you tear it down and you basically build back in where that house was. you tap into the existing sewer, water, gas line that was used for that house. Right on. Cool. And I just want to go back a second. You had talked about finding contractors with well-run businesses versus finding the best contractor.

I think it was a pretty important distinction there. How can somebody tell if a contractor runs their business well versus just a good contractor? Well, first of all, are they doing everything themselves? I mean, that's my first question. Do you have subs? Not only do you have subs, but do you have three to five subs in every category? So when I was interviewing contractors and somebody told me I only have one plumber, one electrician, well, what happens if he gets hit by a bus and you're in the middle of my project?

Does my project slow down for two or three weeks? To me, that's not acceptable. You know, so that's one thing to look for. Are the invoices, the bids, the timeline, is everything really specific? You know, are you just telling me that the foundation is going to cost 20 grand? Are you going into blocks, piers, excavation of the land? Are you going into all that? The one thing that my contractor does that I really love is he actually goes down to the nearest penny on each item.

Okay. And then he signs that scope of work. I sign that scope of work. And then he also provides a detailed timeline that says this is when plumbing is going to get done. when electrical is going to be done. This is when framing's going to get done. And the other thing is, will your contractor work on the weekends? Okay, so if your project falls behind, and I tell you, you need to be out there on Saturday and Sunday, is it going to be caught up by Monday? Because if it's not, I have a problem. And so I found a contractor where if we fall behind,

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That's Indeed.com. slash rookie terms and conditions apply hiring indeed is all you need so yeah you mentioned that you know one of the things if the market turns you've got enough equity in these properties to be able to get out you can sacrifice a lot but in order to do that you have to buy them right so I want to touch on this idea of buying properties when you're finding deals are you still just in direct mail have you expanded that now or what's your main strategies for finding deals and a competitive market because Nashville is very competitive, I hear. Yeah.

It's crazy there. So 80% of how I find deals is from mailing. The other 20%, I would say, is just constantly following up with agents, wholesalers, other people in the market. The one good thing about being a listing agent is buyers call my signs whenever I stick them in the yard. Well, they usually have to sell something before they can buy the next house. One of my best deals came from a business. a buyer calling my realtor sign and I said, you know, is there a house you need to sell before

you can buy this? And she said, yes. And so I ended up getting that house. So you just asking more questions, asking people who they know, what they know, who they know that needs to sell, that's very important. When I do go out with friends and I meet people at bars, they're like, you know, what do you do? I'm like, you know, I invest in real estate. Do you know anybody that might need to sell? I love it. Always on the job. Hey, really quick, who do you mail to since 80% comes from mailing? What's your kind of mailing target there? Well, for me, I stay away from absentee owners. I don't like them. I think it's over flooded. I think there's too many investors that are hitting that list. I actually like

owner occupants. Those are primarily where my best deals have come from. They're usually people with a problem that needs to be solved that can't be solved by an agent. I like buying from people that are older, I've never bought a house from somebody under the age of 45. Driving for dollars, I've actually drove around the entire city of Nashville within five miles of the urban core, and I've found every crappy house that there is in Nashville. So if it's out there, I already know it's out there. I've written them all down. I've got a list of driving for dollars of over 2,500 names.

So that's one big thing. Can we dive into that just real quick? Hold your thought of where we're going next. Again, he's really not working hard enough here. I know. I want to talk about driving for dollars because this is a technique that people can do if they don't have a lot of money, they don't have a lot of experience. So what is driving for dollars and how do you do it exactly? Like, what's your process look like? Well, you just drive around the city and you look for a house that might be run down or you look for signs that the house is in distress or the owner is in distress. So what I do is I just, I pick a day or two days or three days out of the week, depending on how much time I have for that week. And I say, this is the area that I'm going to drive. and I'm going to hit every street. So what I do is I personally take a map with me and I color in the streets as I hit the streets.

That way I know I hit all the streets. And what I do is I just look for houses that are old. For me, it's a little different too because I'm looking for smaller houses. I want houses that are 800 square feet, 900 square feet, 1,000 square feet because they're not going to be able to sell that for more than what the land is worth now here in Nashville. So I know that the land is worth more than that house that's that 800 square foot

house is sitting there. So that's one thing I look for. Shingles missing, overstuffed mailbox, grass is too high. I always look for really old windows and window units. So every time I've seen a house that has window units, the inside of the house has always been really bad. I've never seen a house that didn't have, that had window units that the inside is not beat up.

When you say window units, are you talking about like air conditioning units? AC. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Because that tells me that tells me that they haven't taken the time or the money or they don't have the money to put a central unit in there. So they're accepting the lower standard of living, which tells me that the inside of that house is also not updated. That's clever.

I like that. Very smart. Yeah. Cool. Okay. So driving for dollars. Love it. So you drive down.

And you write all that stuff down and you now have a big monster. or the lead list of houses that you can now start mailing. Yeah, do you mail them next? Is that the next? Yeah, and so what I do is I mail them. I never stop mailing these people. So people say, you know, mail them six times and then you're good. No, I have mailed the same people for the past 19 months that I've been doing direct mail.

And the reason I've done that is they, I've had phone calls from sellers to say, all right, Devin, you sent me more mail than anybody combined has ever sent me, you know. So I'm finally ready to sell my house. I've had sellers call me and say, you sent me 11 yellow letters. I know you're serious. So that's why I called you first. So, and that seller has actually sold me three houses already. Wow.

So what are you sending them? Yellow letters you mentioned, right? I mean, are handwriting them? Are you printed them on your computer? How are you doing that? Well, when I first started, I didn't have the money to hire a company, so I hand-wrote all of them. But now I do yellow letters, zip letters, professional letters, postcards. Each mail piece sticks with a different type of person.

So I like to send out a variety of mail. Okay. How about postcards? Do you say that? Yeah, I send those out. I'm not a big fan of those. I've actually never gotten a deal from a postcard. Okay.

So, nice. Awesome. This is crazy. I think people are going to be shocked by the amount of value that they're getting from this. And the fact that you're not like a 45-year-old, but, you know, little pipsqueak over here is awesome. It's amazing. It's amazing, man. I mean, really, really unbelievable. But before we, you know, start to kind of move on to the next section, you know, Brandon had a good question here that I thought we should ask, which was, you know, what have been the biggest struggles that you face beyond? You know, you had talked about some ageism. You had talked about some other stuff. But, you know, what have been the things that really stick to you? So this is not a game that you can do within the first six months. And I realized that. It took me six months of mail.

It took me six months of meeting people for people to actually take me seriously. So it took me a while to get going. And that was one of the biggest struggles that I had is just coming home at night and saying, oh, this isn't working, but I need to keep doing this. And so that's been one of the biggest problems. The other problem that I've run into is reliable people in this business. You know, you'd be surprised how many agents don't call you back, you know, how many contractors try to screw you ever. I mean, the list goes on and on.

For me, it's surveyors not getting me building envelopes within 14 days. You know, it's legal documents not being filed whenever you say you're going to get them filed. And, you know, at that point, you just need to be able. to put your foot down on these people and say, look, if you're not going to get it done, there's plenty of other people in this town that will get it done. And I've had to fire, I don't have anybody in house, but I've had to fire people I'm using and just go on to the next person. And that can be a challenge in it of itself because you're in the middle of trying to do something. You borrow this money from this investor. You said,

this is the timeline. You've got to figure out how to get it done. So you just need to figure stuff out, you know. Dealing with neighbors has been another challenge for me, but, but we're getting better at it. I've had neighbors call me, and I always put my sign in the yard, and I always walk up to the neighbors and say, hey, this is going to be going on in the next couple of days. So if you have a problem, here's my number,

and we can figure it out. You know, if you do that, they won't call the city and start a war with you. Yeah. You know, so it's great. Very good, man. Very good. All right.

So why don't we, I mean, there's so much we could probably talk about, but we probably should begin wrapping this up slowly. Kind of a last question before we get to the fire round. What are your long-term plans? Like, where are you, what's your goal here? Okay, so my yearly goal is $500,000 in income, and that's what I want to hit this year.

By the age of 25, I want to be worth a million dollars. Whether that's assets or in cash, I don't really care. By the age of 30, I want to have multiple employees in-house doing a big-scale operation. And so what I want to do is year over year, I want to double this business. You know, this year we've done 42 deals. I'm expecting to do at least 50 by the end of the year. So I want to do 100 next year. I just want to create a lifestyle and a business, you know, that I can effectively try to change the world with, you know.

And so that's kind of where I want to get to. And I want to get to $200,000 a year in passive income. Hey, a quick question on top of that. So if that's the goal, what's the reach goal? Yeah. It's good stuff. And I love the fact that when I asked you that question, you were like, you knew. Oh, yeah. Like, you've thought about this clearly.

Like, this wasn't like, oh, I don't know. What should I be doing next? Well, you got a goal. About eight months ago, I didn't know. And I met with somebody that I really looked up to. And she ripped my business to shreds. And she said, you know, you don't, you don't know these numbers. You don't have these goals.

so where are you going with this? You know, you don't even know. So if you don't know, how are you supposed to promise other people what you're doing? And I was like, that's very true. So I came home, sat down. I said, you know, these are the goals that I want to meet. And if I fall short of it, who cares, you know? Awesome.

I love it. Cool. All right. Let's do this. Let's do it. Let's move over to the world famous fire round. It's time for the fire round. All right, the world famous fire round.

This question's come direct out of the bigger pockets forum. These are real life questions that our members on BiggerPockets.com are asking. And of course, if our listeners have questions, they can jump on the forums anytime for free and ask your questions. And there's people like Devin, you know, hanging out, they can answer them. So number one, what is your best advice for a newbie real estate investor? It's your number one best advice. I would say go find somebody that you can get in touch with. It'll teach you everything.

When I first got started, is I got on Google and I typed in 20 biggest developers in Nashville, and only one of them responded, but I've been with him forever. Go find a deal. Take it to these people. They will be more likely to help you, you know, and they will be more likely to come back and help you in the future. If you can make them money, they will teach you as much as you want to learn. Awesome. All right. Next question. I'm a wholesaler, and I just got a deal under contract. Now what? Well, send it to the title company so they can start to title search. But now is the time to search for your N buyer. If you don't have any buyers, posted on Craigslist. You don't need 150,000 people on your buyer's list to find a buyer.

Take it to your Wren group. You know, call people that's doing deals in your area. If you don't know, go on the tax map and see where people paid cash for stuff. So there's, I would say, find your buyer, get it to the title company, find a good title company that's going to be able to walk you through the process because you are going to stumble through the process and have them help you get to the end stage. Perfect. All right.

I don't have any money for marketing at all. What do I do to find deals? Partner with people that have money. So more than half of my mailing list, I send out 5,000 pieces a month right now. 3,000 a month come from other investors. So there's two other investors who actually give me a monthly marketing budget. I take all the phone calls. I go meet with the sellers.

I follow up with the sellers. I do the contract work. I meet with the title company. I find the buyers. And we split the wholesale fee 50-50. Or if we decide to do the deal together, then we split the deal 50-50 on the back end. So if you don't have money to market,

to me, that's just an excuse. Go find somebody that has money in order for you to market. Dude, I love that. That's amazing. Yeah. This guy's hardcore. Yeah, I love it. All right.

This person, this user is actually going to show you up a little bit. I'm 15 years old. What did I do now to set myself up for the future? If you're that young, I would just stick to educating yourself, getting to know people in the market. I would probably go get a job for three years with somebody that's actually doing it so you can see it firsthand. And then whenever you become legal age, then start doing deals on your own. or what you can do is you can work something out with the person that you're trying to mentor under and say, hey, if I find this deal, will you split the deal with me and walk me through the deal?

By the way, that kid's goal for his net worth at $20 was a million. So, you know, you're not like that goal, Devin. I need to get to know this guy, you know. Yeah. All right. Last question of the fire round. A guru wants to charge $20,000 for a course on hold. wholesaling. I've only got $22,000 in my checking account. Am I crazy to be considering this?

Yes, take the $22,000 and send out 22,000 pieces of mail. You'll be surprised how many deals you'll get. I guarantee you you'll you'll make over 200 grand by spending $22,000 a mail. If I had $22,000 in mailing right now, I'd be setting the world on fire, you know? I don't, I just, I don't understand the whole guru thing. You know, you want to spend 20 grand to get a course, you know, spend the 20 grand on trying to find deals because that's what ultimately makes you money. Gurus don't make you money. There you go. There you go. You're a man after Josh's heart. I love this guy. I love this guy. All right. Let's take this to famous for. All right. These questions are asked every week to every single guest. And according to you,

You've listened to every show like three times. So you know exactly what's coming, right? Okay. Exactly. Before I have new answers for you. Oh, good, good. All right, but before I get to the four questions, let me ask you this. How many total deals have you done like in the 19 months or whatever you've been?

I mean, total number. 58. Okay. Because that show title is probably going to be like 58, you know, deals by 23 or whatever. Yeah, it's crazy. All right. So, famous four. Number one.

real estate related book. I actually like the turn $1,000 into a million. I just like yeah, I really like how he gets into the fundamentals of investing. You know, he, he doesn't speculate on anything and he really delves into all the details of a deal. I think everyone should read that book. Favorite business book. I'm going to go a different direction on this too. I actually like intelligent investor and security analysis by Ben Graham. Now, those are stock books, but people should read them again for the fundamentals of investing, because that's what it all comes down to. He gets into the difference between an investor and a speculator. And I think if you're a rehabber, if you're a new construction,

if you're somebody that's in here trying to buy something, force appreciation, and then resell it, are you a speculator or are you an investor? You know, I think that's a question that you need to ask yourself. Right on. That's great. That's great. 23-year-old doing 42 deals in 12 months. Surely you have lots of hobbies.

I was a facet. No. I'm a big sports guy. You know, I'm a huge Cleveland fan, so I'm ecstatic about what just happened. Oh, man, I was born there. I watch them play. I watch them have, you know, be really crappy for the past 100 years. You know, I'm a big TV show person.

I love to play guitar. I love to write songs. And eventually I'll travel. But it's really hard for me to justify spending $2,000 on travel when I could spend it on mail. So, yeah, there you go. Someday, someday. Yeah. Right on.

Cool, cool, man. All right. My last question. What do you believe sets apart success? real estate investors from those who give up, fail, or never get started? I think it's just people that don't make excuses. I mean, it's people who refuse to accept failure. You know, if you accept failure, then that means that you never had a plan for success.

And if you want to be successful at this, you'll find a way to do it. I mean, I've walked into a room of investors, like I said, on an $8 an hour job. And, you know, now I'm running 17 new construction projects. I just said to myself, this is what I'm going to do, and I'm going to do it. And if you're in my way, I'm sorry. But you know, you just got to walk into a room and say, I'm going to be better than everybody in this room at doing real estate investing. I love it.

Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. Cool. Well, before we let you go, where can people find out more about you? Connect with you. I'm on every social media. I'm on Twitter. I'm on Facebook.

I'm on Instagram. You can go to Nashville house buyers. org. BP is probably one of the best ways to find me. I'm always on there. I'm always trying to help new people get started. So if you send me a message on BP, I'll respond to you. Awesome. Awesome. Ironically, a lot of people who've been added as long as you have would call themselves new. And look at you, you're a salty old dog with 50 plus deals in the year and a half at the ripe old age of 23. My man, very, very impressive. I bow down to you. I mean, It's amazing.

It's amazing, really. And so I hope people really take to heart everything you've had to say because I really do believe of all the 179 shows that we've previously done. This is probably, I think, one of the most powerful because it's so rare to see somebody at your age as mature and as hardcore as you are. And I love it. So kudos to you. Thanks, guys. Thank you. All right, guys, that was Devin McClish.

Devin. Wow. Awesome. Amazing show. Unbelievable. There were so much in there. This is one of the shows I mean, you have to go back and listen to again, at least twice, if not more. Because there's so much to soak up in there. And I love learning from people that are younger than me because I'm just like, I feel inspired.

Like, oh, well, if he can do it. Yeah, I can do it. Like, yeah, I got this better. So, cool stuff. That was an age joke. You missed it. You were too busy. No.

Yeah. Thanks. You're making fun of my age. You're like 65. Yeah. No, he was great. Again, like, you know, this 23-year-old with things that you and I had never heard of, like ideas and, you know, thoughts that were just like, oh, that's a great idea.

Why didn't I think of that? Yep. Love it. That's kind of the spirit of the bigger pockets community, right? We're all learning from each other, whether or not you're 100 or 23. You know, we can learn from each other and everyone has their own little take on real estate. Exactly. Exactly.

Well, listen, man, great show. Again, congratulations, as we say, Mazel to have to you and the family on little Rosie. and for those of you who want to see her, she's out there. Just look up Brandon and you'll find her. Instagram, Brandon Turner underscore official. There you go. Nice.

Because I'm the official. Oh, yeah. Well, it's because there's a skateboarder named Brandon Turner. So I got to distinguish myself. I'm the real one. Josh Dorkin. Official. Well, there's only one Josh Dorkin, you know.

You're not cool enough to have a skateboarding. There can be only one. Yeah. All right. All right. Cool, man. Let's get out of here. Hey, go Golden State.

Oh, wait, no, they lost to Cleveland. That's why he was so happy. Sorry. All right. I'm not actually a fan of Golden State. I don't care about either team much. Yeah, that's all good. I did want to see them win, though, because I heard they had a good season.

Yeah, it was great. Well, things happen. Things happen. I mean, let's get out here. Until next time, guys, check out the next show. Show 181 on the Bigger Pockets podcast next week. And otherwise, please. if you have not yet already done so

leave us ratings and reviews on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, anywhere else that you're listening to us that really helps us. Just take two minutes and say, hey, I love the show, I hate the show, whatever it is that you actually feel. And of course, we would certainly prefer those higher ratings

because we think we do a good job. Yeah. It's not bad. Five stars. That's what we want. Yeah, we want them. We want them. Also, we want them on Amazon. So if you've not left a review, the book on rental property investing, managing rental properties. No and low money down, flipping houses.

House and flipping houses. Tax strategies. Five-star reviews. We love them. We love them. All right, guys, get out of here. I'm Josh Dorkin. Signing off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio.

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