BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 187: Building Wealth Through Older Small Multifamily Properties with Dana Bull

Episode Date: August 11, 2016

In this episode of the BiggerPockets Podcast, we talk about a subject many investors debate about: investing in OLD properties. Today’s guest, Dana Bull, has filled her portfolio with properties over 100 years — and she dishes out the good, the bad, and the ugly details. You’ll also learn why Dana focuses on small multifamily properties and she offers some incredible insight into being an effective landlord — no matter your age or experience level. In This Episode We Cover: Why Dana and her boyfriend rented in Salem, the infamous place of witch trials How she bought a house from 1784 Things to note about buying old houses The numbers on their second property Why she wants to avoid inheriting tenants Why Dana seeks one bedrooms with smaller footprints The “stepping stone” property for young professionals Why lead-based paint is an issue Things she’s learned from being a landlord in her mid-twenties A discussion on open houses vs. individual showings How to deal with tenant issues How to know when it’s time to sell The importance of knowing the end goal and taking steps to get there How she managed to juggle full-time jobs and investing How many properties she has now and why she’s just hitting a “target” What she means by the “building years” How she manages her properties What it’s like being a woman investor And SO much more! Links from the Show Josh’s Twitter Account BP Podcast 099: 3 Personal Finance Bloggers & Their First Real Estate Investment with Scott, Lauren, and Philip BiggerPockets Webinar BiggerPockets Forums Books Mentioned in this Show Property Management Kit For Dummies by Robert S. Griswold The Book on Managing Rental Properties by Brandon and Heather Turner The EveryGirl’s Guide to Life by Maria Menounos Tweetable Topics: “All of our properties have some sort of story in them.” (Tweet This!) “If people want your time or if people want to live in your space, they need to respect you and your time.” (Tweet This!) “There are so many approaches you can take, and I think the key is to just start.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Dana Dana’s BiggerPockets Profile Dana’s Company Website Dana’s LinkedIn Profile Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 187. So I don't want to be the richest person. I don't want to be this real estate shark. I want to make $450,000 a year gross in real estate. And the way that I can do that by that age is... You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio. Simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place.

Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorkin host to the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host, Mr. Brandon Turner. What's up, sir? Hey, not a whole lot. What's up with you? I'm doing good, man.

Doing real good. Good. Has it been hot there in Denver like everyone else in the country? This has just been, let me, let me complain for a second. Do you want me to get my violin out? Yeah, hold on. You ready? It's been probably four to five weeks of 95 degree weather without a break. Wow.

This is horrible. It is very, very much unlike Denver and we're suffering pretty badly. So, yeah, we need a break. I don't do well above like 75. And so I'm pretty cranky right now. That's been pretty bad here too. It almost hit 70 yesterday. Yeah, that's pretty bad.

Hopefully the sun pokes out one of those days. Yeah, maybe it will. I don't know. I forgot what it looked like. Anyway. Yeah. But thanks are good, man. Things are going well.

And, you know, we're rocking and rolling here at Bigger Pockets, celebrating a two-year anniversary here of Scott Trench. Scott Trench. Yeah. It was on the Bigger Pockets podcast episode, I'm not sure, a long time ago. Not sure, but Scott's box. He was awesome. Yeah, we, you know, just everything's going on.

going really, really well. So excited. But we've got some cool stuff to talk about today. We've got a great guest with a pretty cool niche. And why don't we lead up to it? All right. So today's show is with a lady named Dana and she is awesome because she's doing this niche where she's in small multifamily properties. You guys are going to love that. But what I love most is like her whole like, she doesn't want to be, you know, have a 100 million property. She has a very specific goal, a very specific number she's trying to get to and a definite plan for getting there. You guys are going to love that part. So stay tuned for that. A very distinct number. Yeah, that's great. All right. Cool. Before we bring her in, why don't we go to today's quick tip?

All right, today's quick tip. Oh, you're taking it? Yeah, do it. All right. My quick tip for it to you guys today is when you're dealing with a contractor and for anything at all, spell it out in like stupid detail. Like, there's been like 10 times in the past week where I've dealt with contractors and I made assumptions and then they just made a guess and they were totally different than what I wanted. I just had like two grand for a fence built and they painted the whole thing white. I didn't want it white. I wanted it just wood fence. They painted it white. I don't know why. It's like I'd have to spell that out for him.

Don't paint the fence. Yep. There you go. Yeah, that is one of those annoying things is like, you know, you make assumptions like on the do not do stuff. Like you have to actually think about the things that somebody may possibly do when you say don't do anything. When you know, you don't spell it out, you got to spell it out. So how do you want it exactly spell it out? Yep, there you go. Yeah. That's your quick tip. Perfect. You've upgraded how to buy properties, but did your insurance get the memo?

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managing reservations, everything runs smoothly while you're off making memories. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. By the way, guys, this is show 187 of the Bigger Pockets podcast, and you can check out the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 187. Also, please do leave us a rating and review. If you have not yet done so already on iTunes, Stitcher, so on and so forth, all the various players out there, Google Play.

And of course, make sure to subscribe to the podcast. Don't just download it, but actually subscribe. And then you'll automatically get all the new shows when they come out. And if you do, let Josh know it on Twitter. At J.R. Dorkin. Nicely done. Nicely done. All right, guys.

I'm going to barge your Twitter. That's my goal in life. Let's get this show going. All right. Today's guest, Dana Bull, is a real estate investor in the Salem, Massachusetts area. And like Brandon said earlier, she got a great story. She's got a great goal. And it's an awesome show.

So let's bring her on. All right, Dana. Welcome to the show. It's good to have you here. Thanks, guys. It's great to be here. Yeah. This should be fun.

We're going to talk a lot about your story today. So why don't we just begin there. at the very beginning. How did you get into real estate? No, Josh. You know what? I don't need your lip today. Wow. Dana, I'm sorry. You're going to have to put up with them. No, I'm a dad now. This is going to be a long hour. This is going to be a long hour. I'm a dad now and so I get these like phrases like I don't want to hear that lip, right? My dad always said it to me. So you're like an old man now. I'm an old man now. Yeah. I'm working on it. So anyway, Dana, how did you

get started with real estate? It's about me. It's about you. All right. How did you get started? So I got started about a year after I graduated college. I wanted to move in with my boyfriend, and we couldn't afford to move to Boston. So we decided to move to Salem, Massachusetts, which... The which place, right? Yeah. Yep. So the Halloween capital... I have to interrupt. I did Halloween in Salem. Okay. That is the scariest place on planet Earth. That is so nutty. They're the craziest people. ever come out on Halloween. So if you're listening, I'm like, and in general. Oh my God, you want to do something? Like, go to Salem for Halloween. It's bananas. It's nuts. Bucket list. So, but we ended up there,

I didn't know anything about Salem. I had been there as a tourist maybe once or twice, but I was working in the downtown area. So it was an easy commute for me. And our rent was pretty affordable. So we ended up in Salem. And after renting for a year, we had to move out of our rental and we couldn't find anything to rent. So I had this idea. I was like, well, why don't we buy? And it was this like half-cooked idea. And I was like, I don't know why I said that. That's not going to work. But we crunched the numbers and we were like, hey, you know, we could actually do this. So we found a broker on the internet and we looked at two places and then we just bought the third place because it was sunny and it was cute.

That was the criteria back then, sunny and cute. So it was an old house built in 1784. 1784. 1784. Holy smokes. Wow. Yeah. So, you know, good thing we didn't know what the heck we were doing because if we had any

clue, we would have easily talked ourselves out of it. You know, did the inspection. It was just a disaster. But we had no benchmark to compare it. So again, it was sunny and cute. So we just move forward with it. Wow. So, yeah.

So that was our first real estate purchase. We were 23. This is my boyfriend and I. We're now married. But yeah, you know, not a lot of thought went into it. And things were really crazy at work. We just graduated and we were just working like dogs. And after about two years of that, we got totally derailed.

How so? So, you know, we started off on the right. foot where we were making the responsible choice to buy a property. And then after working so many hours, working 80, 100 hour work weeks, we just needed a release. And we, Brandon, we just bawled out. I mean, we, I don't know how else to describe it. Brandon did that this morning. It was kind of pathetic, but, you know. Go on. I did. No. I want to hear your story. Well, his face gets all red. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's kind of, it's weird. It's not come out of it.

It's ugly. It's pretty bad, you know. Josh makes fun of me after every show. That's how it ends. All right. Anyway, anyway, so going back to your story, how did you ball out? What does that mean? So we bought a boat.

Oh. And yep. Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah, good idea. Very good investment. And then we bought an outy. And yep, another really good investment. At 25.

Yeah. And then we decided to finally move to Boston. And we didn't just get some little shack. We rented a penthouse in Boston. And it was the best nine months of our lives. It was great. I mean, we were partying. We were going out to eat all the time.

And we were still working crazy hours. But after about nine months, we were just like, this needs to stop. You know, we've got to figure out what we're doing. So we called up our broker, the one that we've bought. bought the crazy condo from. And he kind of presented the options to us and laid it all out. He was like, all right, guys, you can keep doing what you're doing. And sure, that's fine. Or you could start buying multifamily properties and go down that path. So that was a light turned on. And that was the turning point where we kind of went from just kids that needed a place to live to actually

thinking like real estate investors. Interesting. Cool. Yeah. I want to go back for a second. So you bought this house that was built in 1784. My brother's got like a hundred-year-old house and it's just an absolute pain in the backside. A house from that long ago has got to be just chock full of issues.

Do you still own that house? Is that your primary? So we actually sold that last year to we made a good profit. of it when we sold, but we need the money to pay for our wedding and we wanted to invest it in something bigger. Okay. So yeah, I mean, the inspections are, it's like a joke, you know, the report, if you were to print it out, you would run out of ink.

They're so bad. It's everything that could potentially be wrong is just wrong. I think what helps is that Salem, when you think of Salem, you think of old, you think of historic. And so that's actually, those are the desirable properties. where we lived. Gotcha. But yeah, I mean,

an inspection report looks something like just the basement is bad. So old plumbing, like this is a report is like cast iron plumbing, expect repairs, potential structural issues,

rotted sill, expect repairs, knob and tube wiring, expect an overhaul. Structural issues consult a, professional, powder post beetle damage,

expect repair. Like every box that you could possibly You tick. You tick. So you decided you're going to become a real estate investor and invest in those kinds of properties, right? Yeah. Yeah. But again, going back to for me, so my profession is I'm in marketing and I'm all about the story, the story of these houses and they are old, but you know what? The thing was standing for, well, I can't do math, but 230 years, it's not going anywhere. And what they lack in kind of infrastructure updates, they make up for in charm.

So all of our properties have some sort of story and they have some sort of kind of wow factor about them, whether it's wide pine floors, exposed brick. And the tenants that we have really kind of appreciate that type of property. So, you know, if you want a new efficiency apartment, there are some in Salem. You can go live in them. They're new construction, but that's not our part of town or our neck of the woods. Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, older properties, there are definite benefits to them, but there are scary things as well.

So because of that, actually, we are having a webinar specifically on this topic next week here on BiggerPockets. So hopefully everybody here, listen to the podcast can come. It's going to be next week. And we're talking about how to invest in older rental properties without losing your shirt. You can sign up for that webinar at BiggerPockets.com forward slash webinar or by texting the word BP webinar to the number 33444 on your phone. Anyway, Josh. So you made this decision. You said, I'm going to become a real estate investor.

I'm done partying. I'm done buying outies and boats and things like that. By the way, it would have been really fun to hang out with you in that period of your life. Yeah, it was more fun. Yeah, having a boat in, we were living in Boston. And so Boston Harbor, that was great. But boats gone. Outie's gone.

Right on. Right on. All right. So you're going to get into real estate. What was the approach? What was the first investment deal that you actually did? So we bought a two family that was built. in 1800. Wow. That was the, yeah. So when we were in the penthouse in Boston, we were kind of getting

our feet wet with becoming landlords because we rented out that condo. And then we were like, you know, this isn't so bad. We had like a minor mouse infestation. It took care of it, had a few little things. But we're like, yeah, I mean, compared to our office jobs, this is a walk in the park. So there was, this was 2013. So nothing was on the market. Everyone was holding on to their stuff, hoping property continued to, you know, get back to where it was. And working with our broker, he was able to link us up with an investor that was selling the two family, and we did an off-market deal. Okay. Got it. So what did that look like? What did you buy it for? So we bought it for 3.30. Again, very old. It was, it was good, though. It was, it's a good property. It needed a new roof. It needed an exterior

paint job. The windows are really old. We actually bought it. with the tenants in it because that was the only way that we could actually acquire the property. Looking back on it, it worked out, but that's kind of one of my big rules now is if it can be avoided, don't adopt tenants. Yeah. I guess the reason is just it's always better to walk into a property and you know more about it than the people living there. And that's not the case if you just continue to have the same lease as the tenants already occupying

the space. Can I dig in a little bit more on that? Yeah. What other issues come up when you inherit tenants? I mean, they know about it, but, you know, why wouldn't it be desirable? I had an inherited tenant trying to shoot me once or tell me they were going to shoot me once. You did? I did. Did they wrote me a note and said, I'm going to shoot you?

Not as bad as actually getting shot, but. There's some hostility, I think, A, around the home sale, there's some tension there, what's going to happen to me and they're all tense. A lot of times they're under market value because the numbers for the previous owner worked out differently than the numbers for the new buyers. And I also just this sense of entitlement that tenants often have where, well, we've been living here for three years, so it's more ours than yours. And overall, we haven't had any major issues with that. We have purchased a few properties with tenants in them, but it's always kind of on our roadmap to figure out how to

get in new fresh vibes. So you paid 330K for this 18002 family. What do they rent for? How much, obviously you had to put a new roof, paint windows. I mean, you had to spend a bit of money, it sounds like. What did the deal look like kind of all in numbers-wise? So they could rent for about 15 to 1,600. They're both one bedrooms, which is another criteria that I like. I like the smaller footprints because I find them to be more manageable. We usually just have a couple or either a single person living there.

That's an interesting point about how, you know, what you like in a property is what I don't like. I don't know if you like what you like, Josh. But, like, right? Like, I hate one bedrooms because I get, like, just deadbeat people that stay there for a month and they're gone. But in an area like yours, it's completely different. You might get young urban professional. Yeah. Yeah, interesting. There's a college. There's a university in Salem. And it's also a great commuting town. Yes, yeah. Hogwarts. Hogwarts.

So, we get a lot of young professionals, and it's kind of a stepping stone property for them. And we, well, actually, I'll be honest with you. One of the years, one of the years, issues that we have with old homes is lead paint. So it's not that we're opposed to making a property lead safe. I'd just rather not if I don't have to. And so by buying two or three bedrooms, while the numbers might work a little bit better for rent, there's an added headache. The more, you know, bodies that you put in a rental, the more wear and tear, all that kind of stuff. And there's not a huge difference in Salem between the rent you can get for a one bedroom versus a two or three. You're kind of going to land in between that 14 to 1800 range. Sure. And obviously,

like, you know, we're not discriminating. What I'm about to say, I'm not discriminating against kids, but when you have fewer bedrooms, you have fewer kids. It tends to be less difficult on the properties. So again, like, it's not discriminated against them, but there is a benefit to having fewer bedrooms in some areas. It might not get destroyed and people aren't eating the pain chips as much. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Well, so those people who are unfamiliar with that, Can you just talk about that for a second, but what are we talking about lead-based paint? Why is that an issue?

Sure. So it's in Massachusetts in particular. There are laws about lead paint. And if you're a landlord, you're liable. They test for lead paint in schools now for children under the age of six. And so as a landlord, you're required to make your property lead safe. And to do that, it requires bringing in a third party that's going to test your property, give you a formal report.

And then you need to bring in a remediation crew to, remove the molding or anything that has lead or to scrape it or to cover it encapsulate it. So it's a big process. And with most of the homes being built before the 1900s, they contain lead paint. And it becomes an issue with any property that was built prior to. I think it's 1980 or 1978. And the big issue here is that, you know, light is dangerous. And, you know, if you have lead paint, you could result in a child that turns out like Brandon. I had a lot of paint chips when I was a kid. We don't want that.

Yes. No, lead-based paint is, I mean, it is a serious issue that, you know, my state's not as, like, they don't force us to make them lead safe, but there are a lot of federal guidelines. If you have a house built prior to 1978, I mean, you can't disturb lead-based paint over a certain size and you have to get remediation companies in there. And yeah, it can get spendy.

So it's something that people should look into if they're going to buy an old house. Make sure you know that, you know, make sure you get tested if you're going to go that route. And yeah. Are there other issues but beyond the lead paint that tend to come up with older houses? I mean, obviously your inspection reports, as you've already mentioned, you know, showed lots of issues, right? I mean, old windows and old wiring. But is there anything that's kind of, that's pretty common that wouldn't be so obvious that comes with an older house? Plumbing.

Plumbing. Every day. It's always plumbing. So we have a great plumber who's 24 hours a day, seven days a week, so we can call them whenever there's an issue. But between backup, small backups in the drains to major backups in the sewage. So the plumbing is unpleasant. And that's really the only thing that bothers me with the old homes is it's such a process to upgrade and replace when buildings are ranted out. And you just got to deal with it and you kind of have to band-aid and fight it.

until you can get to a point where you can go in and really upgrade everything. Yeah, very true. Yeah, I know. I hate plumbing. I despise it. I once went to Home Depot nine times in one day trying to fix plumbing. Oh, I believe it. Yeah.

I don't do my own plumbing anymore for that very reason. No. All right. So before we get back to your story, I want to continue on it, well, all the stuff you've done. But I want to talk about getting started being a landlord. Because here you are, like, you were fairly young at this time when you bought the duplex and you had the other one, the house or was that a condo or a house or boat. I mean, it was a condo. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah, the original 17 whatever condo. And yeah, now you're a landlord and you're in your mid-20s. Right. What does that like? I mean, can you kind of talk about the experience there? What did you learn? What were the struggles you had?

I think at first I was a little bit too nice. And that definitely came into play when I was trying to find tenants. I would kind of bend over backwards for people. I would put up my ad on Craigslist and Zillow, which would go to Trulia and hot pads and everything. and someone would respond with some like, hi, when can I see it? And I would call them up and I would be like really proactive about, oh, when can you see it?

When I can make myself available at any time? And I do not do it that way. I've got a much better system. And yeah, I think in general I was just a little bit too nice and I would let people take advantage of my time. So why shouldn't people do that? Why shouldn't new landlords, you know, jump and show the property anytime a tenant wants to see it?

I think you want to just set the, you want to preface with you have the control. You have the keys, literally. So if people want your time or if people want to live in your space, they need to respect you and they need to respect your time. So now when I do showings, when I need to fill a vacancy, I put up a couple ads on a Wednesday. And I only leave my email. I say, contact me by email. And then if someone's interested, I only respond to,

people, if they send an introduction, if they're polite, have good communication skills. And then I'll say, okay, great, thanks for reaching out. Here's my number. Give me a call between this time and this time. And if they call back, great. If they don't, whatever. And then I actually don't even do individual showings. I do open houses for our rentals and kind of create demand. And sorry, if you can't make it on Sunday, not my problem. So that's been here. So that's been That's great. Yeah, you're right. It puts you in the driver's seat. You're not running around like a crazy person. You set the time. You set the tone and you're controlling the process. And that's exactly what you should be doing. So, yeah, that's great. Unfortunately, again,

a lot of new landlords, you know, think they have to jump anytime something comes in. Right. It leads to other issues if you do that. And then also, because I worked in a startup environment for my professional job, I'm very responsive. and I don't like to put things off. And I've actually had to train myself now when dealing with tenants is, yes, I got their email. Yes, I got the text. But I'm going to give it a few hours instead of just responding right away. And I've had to train myself to do that because it actually goes against how I usually function.

Well, because then they're training you that you're going to jump whenever that they say to jump. Right, right. Yeah, right on. All right. So we've got this first property. Let's go back. You've got the property, two family, paid $3.30, rented out $1,500 each side. You had to put some money into it.

What happened next? You guys were ecstatic. You guys were just like, oh, this has been a pain in the butt. I mean, what was kind of the process from there? Well, honestly, it was a great experience. It was so good that we went off and bought more. Interestingly, it is currently on the market. I put it on Sunday.

Nice. Why? The reason, well, we want to get threes and fours. So we've kind of outgrown the property. But because we bought it in 2013, that was actually a very good price. And we put some money into it to clean it up, did the exterior, and shined up the units by just some simple cosmetic things. And then we got the rents up. So it's now an attractive option for the next investor or owner occupied to come into it.

So we'd like to get rid of it just so that we can buy, you know, move up. But yeah, overall, it worked out really well. We had some plumbing, small plumbing. small plumbing issues. We only owned it for two years, so it wasn't a long run. But a good experience, the tenants were, actually, we had some issues that the tenant on the top floor for a while was complaining about the tenants on the first floor having sex too loud. So that happened. And I was like, okay, what do you want me to do with that information?

I don't live there. I'm going to go bang on the door in the middle of this. Yeah, I was like, sorry, the floorboards are old. Like, I don't know. That was one of the we're more of the we're complaints that we've received. How do you deal with stuff like that with tenant drama between tenants at properties? That's a great question. We haven't had a lot. That was, that was definitely the most bizarre. And I kind of just, I put it back to her. And I was like, what do you want me to do? Like, what is the solution that you're looking for? I think that's kind of how to frame the conversation. Okay, what would be an idea?

deal situation. How can I help? She just wanted to be invited. Nothing. I just want to, I just want to tell you that it's going on. I'm like, okay, I don't know, you know. Well, I think I love that. I love that approach, too, is asking them, well, what do you want to do? Because then a lot, it makes them go, oh, wait, I guess there isn't really anything. I'm just complaining because I'm a complainer. Okay. And we, for the most part, that's, that's key for us is having tenants that actually

want to live in our houses. I don't want to keep people just to keep people because they signed a lease. When they become unhappy or when they become agitated about whatever, you know what, just leave. But I don't care. I'm going to fill it in like 24 hours. Just leave. It's not worth the headache. It's not worth the hassle. And at the end of the day, that's an option, you know, if they become difficult enough.

But we haven't crossed that bridge yet. Right on, right on. So, and no, that wasn't me. That was my look like or something. Yes, yeah. So you said that you're selling it because it's time to move up. When does somebody know that it's time to move up? And I'm assuming it's going to be different for different people.

But for you guys, what was that determination? Hey, we're ready to move up. And how would somebody else go about figuring that out for themselves as well? I think, you know, when you're just starting out, you take everyone. Everyone has a different approach, but our approach was kind of stepping stone. and when we compared managing a property to our full-time jobs, it felt like a walk in the park. So it just was like, you know, we can handle more, we can take on more, let's do it. And the numbers work better, obviously, with the more units that you have under one roof.

And it was just the feeling of we can handle it. And we also, exit strategy for me is key. And that's why I don't have a desire to buy a 10 unit. complex because I want the flexibility to kind of use the houses almost as like playing chess and having the pawns and being able to move them around or dump them or you know to use the word dump but just I want that flexibility I'm 27 I really like real estate right now but I mean who knows I could be 32 and decide you know what that was that was cool about lasted but I think I'm done I want to get out of this right that could happen it's time for boat I mean obviously

yeah yeah we need a yacht so That makes sense. No, I think that makes a lot of sense. And again, for the listeners, that's going to be different for everybody. What's right for Dana isn't right for everybody that's listening. And, you know, the fact that you like those smaller units and don't want the 10 unit complex, a lot of people would be like, well, that doesn't make sense. You're supposed to shift up and that's up. But there is no supposed to anything. It's... There's no supposed to, yeah. You build what works for you, for your lifestyle, for your goals, for where you are today and where you want to be tomorrow. And if you don't know where you want to be, you want something that's going to give you more flexibility, which is what you're dealing with. Right. I think what helped us and I think what would help anyone listening to this is coming up with an end goal and working your way backwards. You know, you don't need to be able to see the whole stairway, but you need to know what you want the top to look like and you need to be able to take. steps to get there. So once we, the light turned on and we decided we were going to be investors,

we came up with a dollar amount that we wanted to make by the time. We just put an arbitrary age to it, but we said 35. Where do we want to be when we're 35? And how do we get there? And there are a lot of different paths, but we decided we're just going to do small multifamily properties in this specific niche and really know that niche. Right on. Right on. Are you guys? Are you guys working or are you doing the real estate exclusively? Oh, yeah. Okay, so you are. Okay, so you're still working a full-time job.

Are you still working in the crazy hours probably or is it toned down a little bit? So what I've done, when we first started, we bought, we probably had about six units under our belt. And I was working 80 hours a week, my full-time job. And then I've actually always worked two jobs since graduating. I've always had a consulting gig. once I got engaged, I couldn't add planning a big wedding onto the workload. So I cut out the crazy 80-hour, totally all-consuming job. I now work a consulting job between 20 and 30 hours, and I'm also a realtor.

So I decided to get my license to complement what we're doing. And then I have some, like, I've got my other hustles, you know. Yeah, sure. Okay. So do you have any tips for people who are the same way that in your shoes? They're trying to build their business. to grow their real estate. They got a full-time job potentially. They got side hustlers. They got all this stuff going on. Yep. How do you do it? She's a hustler. So I think I think you've got to,

well, you need what everyone wants, right? You need time and money. So how are you going to make that work? The way that we've done it and we've made it work is my husband grinds. He works, sales-based job, making commission, and he just grinds it out. I also have worked I have a solid job. I don't make as much money, but I make good money, and I have flexibility, which is really important to me. I decided to get my real estate license as a good compliment. Like, for instance, I have some tenants rolling off, and now they're using me to buy houses. So that channel has been helpful, but I think you just do it until you can't do it.

And then you might need to reframe some pieces of your life to make it work. I was interviewing at my dream job at my dream company, and I turned it down because I wanted to have flexibility. And I couldn't, maybe I could have, but I wanted to stay sane. And so I decided to keep the job that was a little bit more flexible and have time. I love that. I mean, you know, one thing, people are always saying they want to quit their job and they want to get into real estate because they hate their job. And I think that's a great idea. I mean, real estate can help you out. But you don't have to necessarily have real estate be your save, your favorite. from your job. You could find another job that's more flexible, you know, that gives you the

ability, like you did, right? You dropped the 80-hour week job. You found something that's more flexible. I recommend people all the time, become a real estate agent. Like, that's a flexible job that if you hustle and grind at, you can make decent money at. So again, I love that you did that and you said that. So very cool. Yeah. Yeah. There are two kinds of real estate investors, those who have reviewed their insurance and those who think that they have. Most don't realize their coverage wasn't built for how they actually invest. Vacancy periods, rehabs, short-term rentals or LLC held properties. These gaps surface only when filing claims.

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how many total properties do you have now? So we have 13 units. So it's five. We have five properties, five small multifamilies. And how many are you aiming for? And do you have an ultimate number of units you want? We want 21 units by the time we're 29. And then we'll work on paying those off by the time we're 35. Oh, so that's the goal is buy them and then pay them off. Yep. So I don't want to be the richest person. I don't want to be this real estate shark. I want to make $450,000 a year gross in real estate. And the way that I can do that by that age is keeping it controlled and not getting swept up in how big can we grow this thing. Because you know what? I love real estate. and maybe there's some other channels that I could explore with real estate, but I really want to keep my job.

I really want to keep all the other pieces. And I know that if I almost got to, I know I'm going to have to reel myself in because once we finish buying the 21 units, I'll be like, oh, what about the next one? And I think, I think just sticking with the plan, being open to opportunity, but sticking with the plan. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Again, and I think we've had a lot of people similar mindset lately, but I always, like to reiterate it for the listeners. A lot of people think like, hey, you know, if I'm going to go into real estate, all these people, you know, they just keep going and going and going and

they don't know what to stop and, you know, I don't want that to happen. Well, you know, you just said it. Figure out your plan. What are you looking to do real estate for? Like if you want to just keep going and going, going and seeing how much you can make, okay, that works, do that. There's nothing wrong with that. If you want to set a goal like you did 450K, that's great. That's an awesome goal. Now you have a goal. You know what you're shooting for. When you get there, you know, you can move on. You can do find another hobby. Find something else to do. You've, you've, supplanted your income in the way that you wanted to supplant your income, right? I mean, that's why you're doing this, correct? Exactly. Yeah. I don't want to leave my job. I'm not

miserable with working. I like working. I mean, I've been, I started working under the table at age 12. I like having money, but I really like having flexibility. My, in addition to the monetary goal. I really want to be able to get rid of my cell phone. I hate having a phone. I hate being connected. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just, you know, and I get right now, these are the building years. And it's, it takes a lot of hard work and dedication and just get up, get it done. But yeah, ultimately, I want to have a house phone. You can contact me by email. I'll get back to you when it's, when I can. I don't want to feel obligated to always be accessible. That's just, it's like, a ball and chain, you know?

Yeah. I think broad generalization, but it feels like, like, we went one way and people are now starting to move back towards what you're talking about because I have the exact same mentality. Like, I can't stand being like on demand all the time. It's very annoying. But I get it. I get it. All right, cool.

So, you know, a few more questions before we move on to the next segment of the show. How are you financing your properties? So that is a good question. and I wish I had exciting tips or tricks, but it's been super vanilla and basically all brute force. So all of our properties are 30-year fixed mortgages. When we first started, the rules were a little bit tighter, and at the time, we thought we could only have like three or four. So we were thinking back then, oh, we're going to have to get creative and figure something out. But for now, we're able to acquire 10 properties doing the 30-year fixed mortgage.

and we don't plan on having the mortgage for all 30 years because we want to pay them off sooner. So we want with 30 instead of 15 just because we want the cash flow to work a little bit better in the short term. But basically how we're doing the down payments is straight up brute force working. We're animals. We're just constantly working and trying to have some fun here or there. But working, saving, being scrappy where possible, not buying boats, not buying cars, just we live in a three family. We've lived in our, we've lived in a three family for the past few years. And, you know, we live mortgage-free. So you're like house hacking right now.

Yeah. Actually, so right now, I really did love living in Boston. So in April, we've been watching the market for years and we randomly found this three family on the MLS. It was a great deal. We bought it. We're in Charlestown. I don't know if you've seen the movie The Town with Ben Affleck. That's where we're perched up right now. And so we're actually doing a massive remodel of the house, living in one of the units. We have one of them rented out. And yeah, so a house hack, though. And I like the idea of just living in a multifamily in the city.

It makes sense. And that's what we're doing. That's cool. And you said you were basically living rent-free. You mean like the tenants are paying for your mortgage or how does that, or is that the goal? Or what does that look like? Oh yeah. So our old three family that we lived in in Salem, the tenants, their rent covered our mortgage. And then we made like on top of that usually $1,500 a month. So of course, you know, we're, again, it's the building year. So I don't even care if we make any money for the next few years. I want to just get all the properties up and running. The truth is we have made money. We've made good money, but that's not my main goal right now. It's just getting everything to be humming along. Well, everyone's got different. I mean, again, like we talk about this all the time.

Everyone's got different kind of goals and you live in different areas that have different, you know, whatever agendas that you're trying to do. So, again, if your goal is to quit your job next year, your strategy might not work. But if your goal is to quit your job in 15 years, 10 years and, you know, keep working or whatever, you know, it can be a fantastic opportunity. So again, I just, I love the perspective, like just differences that we all do. Yeah. And it's also more about scaling up, you know, kind of keeping it like this and then 30, boom. And kind of holding out and just staying the course and knowing that that's what the trajectory looks like is what keeps me motivated. Yeah. Awesome.

All right. My next question, do you manage them all still? I do. And going back to that goal of not having a cell phone, ultimately, I don't want to. But right now to keep costs low. And also, I don't get that many calls. I've never had a call in the middle of the night. The way I always...

What's your phone number? Cute. No. Actually, you'll probably find it online if you wanted to do some stocking. Yeah, that's like my nightmare, getting calls in the middle of the night. I think, again, going back to setting the expectation with tenants during the move-in process is walking through with them what to do in case there's an emergency. And even spelling it out so clearly as to say, if there is an emergency, call 911.

Okay. Next level. If this happens or this happens, call me. Most of the things that might come up is an email. Please don't text me. And that definitely helps. I know that if a tenant's calling me now, there's something. And I get a call maybe once every three months. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you get properties that are in decent shape or you fix them up before you rent them out or whatever, I mean, maintenance concerns don't happen as much as I think people think they do. Right. That's always a scary, you know, my uncle had a rental property who's over there every night in the middle of the night dealing with a, you know, toilet, whatever. Right, right. That stuff doesn't happen that often. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I do toilet and you don't have to deal with that toilet anymore. So it's not usually that actually that big of a deal. So I think people get scared. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Last question, I think before we move on to the world famous fire round is what is it like being a woman investor? I know it's stupid that we even have to ask the question. But I, you know, unfortunately, I think we just. have to ask the question. You know, it's, you know, it's a niche that's dominated by guys. And so, you know, for us, obviously our goal is to spread the wisdom and wealth of real estate investing to everybody. And, you know, I think it's just going to take time before it becomes more accepted, so to speak, that there's women in the space.

Obviously, I think it's perfectly amazing that you're doing this. So, but what would you tell the other women? Is there any difference that you see or do you ever get treated in a way that you think is like, oh, if this were a guy, they completely act differently? Yeah, I think sometimes I get pushed around a little bit. And, you know, because I'm in the weeds. I handle all the maintenance. I handle all the tenants. I handle even just going and searching for new properties.

And I'll get pushed around a little bit. I do get, you know, people, you know, honey, sweetie, a little condescending. But, you know, I think don't get worked up about it. In fact, use it to your advantage. Like, they might look at you as, oh, this little, you know, who's this little chick? And then you just go in and you go in, you put an offer that blows them out of the water. I mean, I think you've got to have fun with it. And there are men that you're going to work with in the field that are receptive to that

and, you know, kind of like that type of relationship. and I think, you know, just don't get worked up about it. The one thing is to be careful. So I've had to fire contractors. One of the other things, lessons learned, is as humans, I think we want to give people the benefit of the doubt. And don't do that. No one deserves the benefit of the doubt, especially if they need to prove it to you. And if they screw up, I've made the mistake of giving people a second chance and they always hose you every time.

So if you see a problem, cut them loose and move on. And I think maybe a generalizing here, but a lot of women are like, it's okay. Like, we'll make it, you know, we'll figure it out, but kind of stand your ground. But also if you're going into a conversation that's going to be confrontational, you know, I'll shoot my husband attacks saying, look, I've got to have this conversation with this guy. I've got to fire this guy. Call me in 15 minutes. Make sure I'm alive. You know what I mean? So be careful, but don't get taken advantage. Even if you need to just smooth things out while you're in the situation and then come back to it, do it that way. Yeah. Now, what about safety? You know, showing units to people by yourself or, I don't know,

like you said, firing somebody. I mean, you know, hey, honey, I'm going to check in in 15 minutes is one thing. Do you think it's necessary or do you think it makes sense at certain times? have somebody else there with you that you know and trust. Yeah, if it were to be a very difficult conversation, I think just a general safety and numbers thing, if you can outnumber people, that's a good rule of thumb. But also part of my approach in doing this is we chose Salem, we have an investment in Boston, and these are relatively nice towns and in the nice area of these towns. and there are seedy towns that we could get a better, the numbers could work a little bit better

for, but I don't have the stomach for it. And I'm not, I'm not the right profile, honestly. It just, it wouldn't be a good place for me to be investing and for me to be managing. I would need to get a property manager. I would need to have some sort of buffer. So this just works for me. Gotcha. No, that's great. That's great. And I bring it up just because, you know, you do hear from time to time safety things. And it's not just on females, by the way. There's, I mean, you know, I think for anybody, you know, always be aware.

You know, if you're going to open houses or you're at, you know, having people in an open house, just be smart. And, you know, make sure people know where you are. And, you know, I think, unfortunately, there's a lot of crazies out there. And crazy things do happen from time to time. And so, yeah, just be smart. I mean, that's probably the best piece of advice. Yeah, there's definitely some crazes and definitely some crazies in Salem. I didn't even mention about the property that we almost bought.

And it was a weird house. It didn't really fit the type of house that I like to buy, but it was cheap. And I was kind of starting to sway. But during the inspection, we found this like weird door hidden behind a tapestry. We're like, oh, cool, bonus room. And we go into it. No. Well, no.

Actually, the nice thing was it was cleaner than any of the other rooms in the house. And it was because it was where they were practicing Santeria. Oh, nice. Which is, people are not familiar. I had to look it up. And it's where they sacrifice animals. So they have to keep it very clean. But it was just like, you know what?

This probably isn't a good, yeah. Not a good place. Yeah, yeah. There you go. Right on. I don't know what we're talking about. But by the way, on weird stories, here's one of my fun, you know, Halloween stories from driving into Salem with some of my roommates.

I had three female roommates at the time. And we're going down the street. That doesn't surprise me at all. Yeah. And three female roommates, three female kids. We got the windows open. And people are, you know, running around being, you know, being silly. A dude in a.

It's selling to the lamb's mask and a straight jacket runs and like dives his body into our car, like into the open window. And we're like, what, does he? You know. Was he drunk? It was crazy. Had to be. Yeah.

Fits out and jumps on the top of our car and then starts jumping on top of all the other cars. Like, you know, really? When was this? Yeah. Not to age you. Crazy. Crazy people. That was a while ago.

Dana's wondering if it was her. She's like, that was that a couple years ago? Is that what's going on here? Wait, what did I say? I said, you were wondering if it was you. Oh, yeah, I could have been. Yeah, oh, about that Halloween costume. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

All right. All right, cool. Well, moving on, let's go over to our world famous fire round. It's time for the fire round. All right, the world famous fire round. These questions come direct out of the bigger pockets forums, which, of course, you can get to by going to bigger pockets. dot com for slash forums.

Number one, very, very, I guess related to what we've been talking about today. For someone looking to buy their very first multifamily property, should I buy an old house that needs a lot of updating? I think you need to think about the location. And if it's in a town with a lot of new construction, probably not. Because what's your exit strategy? People who move to those towns want new construction. and they don't want an antique.

However, if it's in a location where older properties are actually viewed as little gems, then, yeah, it might not be a bad investment if you have a good plan for what you're going to tackle and how you're going to tackle it. Right on. Cool. All right. Do you have any tips for investors who are trying to manage their lifestyle and invest in the market at the same time? I think just mentally prepare yourself to buckle up.

I think stay the course, especially if there are any, millennials listening. After you graduate college, there's definitely this poll, like, you know, this is such a prime opportunity in my life that I should go and travel and I can explore and find myself or whatever people say. And sure, that's one approach. And that might work for you, but you can also consider the option of what if I just bunker down, work like a maniac and put in the time now. And it's going to be really hard. So just prepare for that. There's some quote about being an entrepreneur and I kind of feel like being a real estate investor is being an entrepreneur. And it's something like you have to live the life that people won't so that you can live the life

that people can't. And did I, did I butcher that? That sounds right. I think that sounds good. Yeah, but kind of like, you know, yeah, it's about the mindset. Suck it up and then and then figure out how you can make it work. There's a solution. It might be taking a job that isn't your dream job, but it's a good job. Right on. Cool. Cool. All right. Number three, what types of charm should somebody look for when purchasing an older home? Have you found something specific that interest renters more? Yeah, I think people are always blown away by the wide pine floors. You can't install those new and have them look like they do in the old homes. That's definitely, it gives any property a wow factor. The crown molding, any exposed brick, whether it's a lot of the houses in Salem and the surrounding areas, they have those really cool kitchens that have the old brick fireplaces that they actually used to cook in.

So anything like that and just making it the focal point of the room. Cool. Great advice. Great advice. All right. Last question. What have you found the most important repairs to do or to check when you buy a rental property? I think, well, one of the things that I look for is separately metered utilities, and maybe that's obvious, but it can be kind of a headache, especially if you buy a three family and they have like a small water heater that's shared for the whole house. You're going to get complaints about that. Again, I don't think you should ever not buy a property because of these certain rules of thumb. Like, people are like, don't buy a property that has an oven tube. I don't agree with that. Look at what the whole house has to offer. figure out if the knob and tube is something that you can handle. And yeah, I think for me, though, if you're buying a property and you can't get it delivered vacant, just having a plan for how you're going to, if you're okay with the numbers, with the

utilities shared. And if not, what's your plan for getting them separated out? Makes sense. Yeah, right on. All right. Well, moving on to the last segment of the show, let's get to our world famous. Famous for. All right.

These questions are the same four questions we ask every guest, every guest, every guest. week and so we're excited to see what. Do you realize there's five now? No, it's famous four and then you ask your famous one. Oh, is that right? Four plus. Exactly. Four plus. The famous, the famous four plus. All right, number one, what is your favorite real estate book? That's a good question. So last summer, I went on a huge Amazon tear and I bought all these books with the intention of actually reading them, put them in the basement, and we had a huge sewage backup, so all my books got destroyed. But I was able to read Landlording for Dummies, which it kind of laid everything out there. It had some good little pointers that I hadn't thought about. It's just a good book for a lot of information presented

in a very linear format. Nice. Right on, right on. Another good book on landlording is the book I'm managing rental properties. Wow. And the book on how's that? Did you author that? That was the one. Yeah, my wife and I wrote that one together, which you can get a bigger pockets.com slash rental book or on on or Audible now. Thanks, Josh. Good luck. Good luck. You know, I don't know.

I just felt like Brandon wasn't on his plugging today. So there you go. All right. Favorite business book. My mom recommended that I read, okay, well, it's not really a business book. I guess it's a lifestyle book. Super girly. It's actually called the Girl's Guide.

What is it called? I wrote it down. Oh, no, I didn't write it down. It's by Maria Meninos, who she does e-news and stuff like that. And it's just like little tips, but it's called the Girl's. Girls Guide to Life. There you go. Brandon, totally up your alley.

I'm going to pick that one up. That's what I'm talking about, Dana. You got this. You got this. All right, what do you guys? I know you guys are in this hunker down phase and I know, so I don't know what the answer is going to be, but hobbies, what do you guys do for fun outside of hunkering down and working and that stuff?

So, yeah. So it's pretty busy, but I recently got a new job, a part-time, little job working at a boutique in downtown. And I sell women's lingerie. Yeah, so I do bra fittings. And it's a weird hobby, but I actually have done it off and on for about seven years. So I kind of like working at a boutique because I can help other people spend money as opposed to spending my own money. Gotcha. Nice. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah, I was thinking about being a bra fitter at some point. They didn't hire you? I got the profile. Yeah. All right. My last question of the day and the last of the famous four before Josh just his famous one.

What do you believe? Dana, what do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from those who give up, fail, or never get started? I think what, that's a good one. I mean, obviously, like the obvious answer is motivation. But I think it's, there are two types of people. So there's people that are looking for the right answer and it almost stops them from making progress. and there really is no right answer. I mean, that's why you guys have this podcast because there's so many different approaches you can take. And I think the key is to just start, just make some noise, just get out there.

And once you have a place to start, you can move in a direction. So, yeah, the difference would be people constantly searching for the right answer versus people that are just getting out there. Right on. That's awesome. That's awesome. Dana, sounds like you're doing some great things.

I love the plan. I love that. you're doing what's right for you and what's best for you. And it's working out. So congratulations on all that. Before we let you go, where can people find out more about you? Don't call me. Her phone number is. 617. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, actually, that was close. I have a, I think the best place, so I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me there. I'm on bigger pockets. But I think the best place would probably be my

real estate website, just because it goes straight to my email, dana bullrealtor.com. Cool. Cool. Perfect. All right, Dana. Well, thank you so much. Lots of luck to you. And maybe some of our listeners will come hang out with you and your crazy costume. Halloween time. Yeah. Thanks, guys. Be good. Take care. Thank you. Bye. All right, everybody. That was Dana Bull. Big thanks to Dana. Lots of cool info. I definitively don't have the Constitution to buy 250-year-old houses. Yeah, that is, that's intense. My oldest property is 1902, I think. So like, and that's pretty old for me. I mean, it blew my mind when she said the 1700s.

I forget that the East Coast has that. Yep. Do you know when Washington was like, when was the Lewis and Clark thing going on? I don't know. Are there like, is that like an app, Lewis and Clark? I know. Probably later than that. But I'm like, there weren't even like civilization out here.

I don't think much when she was like when that house was built. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know my history good enough. I'm a history major. and I don't know my history. Yeah, it's kind of pathetic. I'm a pathetic kind of guy.

Oh, you're not. You're a good guy. It's not true what we say about you. It's not true. Yeah. No, but seriously, yeah, it's just, I think it really requires a specialty in order to do that, or at least a willingness to kind of learn those properties. And, you know, really, at the end of the day, why would it be any different than anything

else? Yeah, it's a niche. You've got to learn any kind of niche. You've got to learn any kind of property. That's a niche. And as I said earlier in the show, we actually have a webinar, this coming week on this very, very topic because of the show. We recorded the show and I thought, man, I should do a webinar on this topic. So we're actually doing a webinar and it is titled, what did I call it?

It's called How to Invest in Older Rental Properties without losing your shirts. We're going to talk about how do you deal with all those things like lead-based paint and the wiring issues and the foundations? How do you deal with all that and still make money in older properties? Because there's definitely people that buy older properties. I mean, my newest property is like 1978. And so everything is older that I own. Yeah. Right on. Cool. All right, guys, thank you so much for listening. Obviously, you can... I didn't say where they should go. Go to BiggerPock's dot com slash webinar to sign up for the webinar

or text BP webinar to 33444 and you'll get signed up. Nicely done. Nicely done. All right, guys, thank you so much for listening. Make sure to jump on bigger pockets. Get out there, get networking, find some deals, find opportunities. There's a whole lot of stuff going on on BiggerPockets. And you could create an account for free today at www.biggerpockets.com With that said, until next week, I'm Josh Dorkin. Sign in off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place.

Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K. Copywriting is by Calicoe content, and editing is by Exodus Media.

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