BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 189: 500 Deals, the $100,000 Wholesale Paycheck, & the Systems That Make it Work with Tarl Yarber

Episode Date: August 25, 2016

Are you looking to ultimately work less, travel more, and life proactively rather than reactively? The key to this life is found in systems. And on today’s episode of the BiggerPockets Podcast, we are excited to introduce you to a guest who’s a master at building systems in his business. Tarl Yarber, an investor in the Pacific Northwest, shares his story of beginning with no money, making $100,000 on a single wholesale deal, and ultimately turning his love for real estate into a profitable business that has done 500 deals. This powerful show is sure to transform the way you run your business forever. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 189. It's make-believing your head until you actually do it. And then it becomes a reality and then you have that confidence that you need to be able to continue to go forward and go do more deals. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited. from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online.

What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorkin. Host to the Bigger Pockets podcast, here with my co-host, Brandon Turner. What's up, man? Hey, not a whole lot. What's going on with you? Busy, man. Busy, busy.

Like, last week of summer is here. This is it. Is it really? It's a rap, man. It's a rap. Weird. Weird. Yeah, it is weird.

It's, you know, trying to figure out what it's like to get back to a routine. And so, you know, all the parents out there listening, yeah, you know what I'm talking about. It's summer could be rough. Summer's fun, but, you know, it definitely could be rough with lots of kids out and about. You know what's rough? What's that? When your baby throws up in your mouth. Did you hear about that?

Yeah, right here. That happened? I've had it happen. I've got lots of throw-up stories. Should we go there? No, we shouldn't go there. But I'm just going to say, don't ever hold a baby three inches above your face and talk to it. Oh, yeah.

That's a bad idea. Bad idea. I learned that. Yeah, I've done that. Right down the throat. I mean, it was all the way to, I mean, it was. Yeah, I didn't swallow. Yeah, but it was projectile.

So anyway, so now we've lost all of our listeners today. Nicely done, Rosie. Yeah, yeah, thank you, Rosie. You've done something that we all long to do and see. So congratulations to you. You are today's big winner. Yeah, thanks, Rosie. All right, so with that, let's get to today's show.

But before we do today's show, why don't we cover today's quick tip. That was the not so quick tip. All right guys, today's quick tip. You know, bigger pockets has become somewhat of a important brand in the world of

real estate investing, I believe. No one's no one. Nobody's heard of it. Well, so here's the funny thing. We've all heard of it, yet you go on this thing. It's called Wikipedia. I don't know if anyone's heard of that. I've heard of that. Kind of heard of it.

Maybe I've been there once or twice. But we don't exist as far as Wikipedia is concerned. Apparently we're not important enough to be on Wikipedia. And it hurts our ego. It hurts our ego. Well, a little, a little bit. I mean, you know, we only have, what, top 10 business podcast, top 150 of all podcasts, a website with, you know, hundreds of thousands of members.

Yeah, I don't have to. Keep on. Keep on. Anyway, make us a Wikipedia page, somebody. Yeah, are you an editor? Are you an editor of Wikipedia? Are you a Wikipedia contributor? Like Bigger Pockets, I think at this point is well deserving of having our own page.

And we would love to get your help in doing that. We don't want to do it ourselves. So if you are one of those Wikipedia people, please help us out. All right. So let's get to today's show. Today's show is actually with a guy that I met at a local. It's awesome. It's a guy I met at a local BiggerPockets meetup, which, of course, you guys can find local

meetups in your areas at BiggerPockets.com, such events. Again, biggerpockets.com slash events. You can find unofficial, just get-together as members on the site. And this is where I met today's guest. And you guys are going to love his story. He's just crushing it. Flipping, rentals, wholesales, I mean, he had a $100,000 wholesale. And the way he gets his deals, we talk about that in the fire round towards the end of the show.

The way he gets his deals is amazing. Doesn't do any marketing for it whatsoever. Stay tuned for that. You guys will love it. That's awesome. Great guy. Great guy. Really quick.

This is the Bigger Pockets Podcast show, 189. you could get to the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 189 or check out all of our podcasts at biggerpockets.com slash podcast. Please, by the way, if you are a listener, subscribe, leave us a rating review, all those things do help us to get the word out and help us to attract more listeners. Most investors spend all their time talking about their high level returns. But that's not the number that actually matters. What actually matters is what you keep after taxes. And that's where multi-family real estate quietly stands out. With built-in advantages like depreciation, the right deals can generate steady cash flow while reducing the tax drag. Bam Capital structures its multifamily

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to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash rookie. Just go to Indeed.com. slash rookie right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's Indeed.com slash rookie. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. All right, guys. Today's guest is Tarle Yarber. That's a mouthful. And we're going to learn a little bit more about that in the second. But Tarle, as Brandon said, he's a great guy. He's an active real estate investor. Did you do that in purpose? That's a mouthful. Mouthful. Spit up baby. Remember? Oh, yeah, it's all about you, Brandon. Yeah, anyway, so Tarle Yarber, Tarle's done hundreds of deals.

Flips, wholesale. Brennan talked about buy and hold, and we, you know, like many of our great, great shows, we cover a whole lot of stuff. There's a ton to learn here, regardless of your level, your experience. So listen up.

Let's bring him in. All right, Tarle, welcome to the show, man. It's good to have you here. Hey, thanks for having us, or me. He speaks in us almost like he's, a legendary hero of the gore novels of the 1970s. That's funny that you say that.

What are you getting at there, Josh? I don't know. I mean, Tarle, that's an interesting name. That sounds like you read the book. No, but I did look you up on Urban Dictionary. Now, my dad was actually reading a book about a barbarian, and the barbarian ended up getting abducted by aliens,

and he immediately thought that would be the best name for his son. And so it's his turn. And for some reason, my mom went with it. And now I'm Tarrell always been. And I feel sorry for all the Carl's out there because they probably get confused with that name, too. So there's more than just that to the name, correct? Middle name.

Yeah, yeah. Like my dad's seen one that going to go see that whole Viking mythology stuff. So my middle name's actually Odin. And so I am a god on the weekends. Just don't piss me off too much. Good to know. Well, that explains how you're able to do so many flips. I mean, you and I met, I don't know, probably six months ago, maybe, I don't know,

somewhere of that. Yeah, I had a local bigger pockets, you know, unofficial bigger pockets meet up at the RAM up in Lakewood. And I remember of just being impressed that you were doing so much stuff in real estate. I remember just being blown away how much you were doing and just wanted to pick your brain while we were there. And then I met you again and I did it again. And I was like, man, this guy is doing crazy stuff.

So I need to get him on a bigger pockets podcast. So I guess that explains that you. That's how you do it all. You're a God. And that was a good interview. All right. You guys are ready to get out of here? Yeah. All right. Anger. Yeah. Yeah. Let's dig into this thing, Tarles. So I know nothing about you. I trust that brand. Not yet. What? Well, you know, I like to come in and learn a thing or two. So you're up in the Pacific Northwest and you're a real estate investor. That's what I got. And let's kind of go back to the beginning. What were you doing before? that and how did you get into real estate? Well, before real estate, I actually got in real estate 11 years ago. And prior to that, I was actually a college student. So when I was, I went to a real estate wealth expo back when I was 20 years old. And I had read this book, so you might have

ever heard of it. It's called Rich Dad, Poor Dad. And no, never heard of that one. Never heard of it. So I read it when I was 17 and it totally ruined my life and made me start, you know, finding ways to get out of the whole standard going to college and get a good job kind of a thing. And so I ended up still going to college. And I was going to do the military and then right afterwards I was doing ROTC. But I was still constantly trying to look for something else to be able to make money, do something different. And I went to a real estate wealth expo.

I bought a seminar on credit cards and immediately found out this thing called wholesaling. And I only bought it out of desperation because I actually bought a different seminar for self-development. and because it was all about taking risk and taking action, and I wanted to do something like that. Because every time, all of my entire life prior to this, I never took risk. I was a very safe person. My family's very safe, very broke too, but very safe.

And so I had this new debt because the seminar costs like two grand for the person development. And so I was like, how am I going to pay for this thing? And I saw this other seminar called How to Turn $10 into $10,000 and 30 days or less. And so I went to that and it talked about wholesaling. So I bought that on the credit card again and was like, how am I going to pay for this? And I better do what the seminar says. So immediately jumped into that.

And within three months, did my first deal. And then about another two months later after that did my third deal. And the third deal was $100,000 assignment fee and changed my life. Okay, we got to dig into that one. But before we dig into that one, I wanted to ask you about like, so you bought a. This is a family show, by the way. Oh, so don't say. Pretty much.

That's how we got a beeper. We got one of those cool classes. I don't know kids listen to this. So that's, I don't know. Hey, we try to motivate people to get up to real estate at a ripe young age. Yeah,

I'm on the Bigger Pockets podcast. I listened to that Grant Cardone podcast, so I thought that it was okay to cusses. Yeah, it's probably okay. We got the beeper. But I want to know about this court. So, you know, at bigger pockets, obviously, you know, Josh founded bigger pockets originally because this

guru industry that exists out there are people charging, you know, 20, 30, 50, $100,000 for education. And a lot of people that we know, I mean, there's countless stories of people who pay for some kind of education, then never use it. But for you, you bought something. You bought a course for a couple thousand dollars. And that actually ended up working. So what was the difference between you and all those people who maybe spent money and

never got anything out of it? Desperation. I don't know, ignorance, maybe. I didn't know any better. And I never had financial challenges until I bought the course. And so the meaning like I've never been in a situation where I stopped paying my credit cards. So I didn't have a way to pay for it. And for the payments because there was a charge card.

It was actually an American Express. And so, and I was 20 years old. And then I made a conscious decision that I had to make it work or else or what was the alternative. And so for me, I got into debt. I actually messed up my entire credit and stuff too because I knew I wasn't going to pay it. But I realized that it was the only, I guess it was just desperation more than anything. So I don't really know how I was to explain it at the time and just a huge desire to want to make a lot of money and not be like the rest of my family. Sure.

I think that was more than anything. And then I also didn't know any better. Like I said, there was actually a follow-up course three months later for that same wholesale seminar. And there was probably 300 people in there. And they had asked how many people had gone out and done their first deal. And I thought everybody had been doing it. So I raised my hand, and I was the only one that rose that raised their hand. And it blew me away, because this is back in 2004, 2005, when you had all the seminar junkies everywhere and seminar gurus.

And it was crazy. It was the first huge boom. And everywhere you went, everybody was getting real estate like now. Yes. Yeah. And so, like, you go anywhere. Everybody's a real estate investor. It's happening all the time up here in Seattle.

And so I just thought everybody was doing it. And I didn't realize nobody else was. So I met this one guy. He had probably 150 grand worth of seminars sitting on his bookshelf, and he never opened up any of them. Oh, man. And so I took some of them from them later. Hey, you know, it's interesting.

You know, you talk about like now. And I just read something. I forget the source, but it was kind of interesting. One of the smart guys in the world out there was talking about. the market feeling topy and there's a predictor. His predictor is how many people are getting the real estate licenses. I think I shared it with you, Brandon. Yeah, yeah. I thought it was fascinating. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of signals and signs about, you know, things are starting to feel a bit topish here nationally. But let's switch back to, you know, you specifically. So you went

through and you did that first wholesale deal. So tell us about that deal. How did that go? what was the experience? So my experience was that when they talked about this wholesale seminar, it totally made everything sound easy and everything was simple and everything was like, it doesn't cost any money.

You need 10 bucks to get a property under contract, right? I'm like, awesome, I have 10 bucks. This would be fantastic. So when you got into the seminar, I got to start, got it into the actual booklet. It talked about if you didn't have money, then you should go door knock. And I was terrified of that.

So I had a Mazda MX3. 1989 or 92 or something like that. I can remember. AC didn't work. I was in Sacramento. It was 110, 115 degrees in the summer. And I had my little tie on, and I would go to the counterrecorders and be 20 years old. I would go to the counter recorders, look up all the defaults and the NODs.

And then I didn't know which ones were good or which ones back because I had no idea how to comp a property. He didn't talk about anything about that. And I would just make the list and go knock on the door. And I had a little script that I said word for word for what the seminar said to do. And through doing that, through terrifying experience, and never knocking on doors at the beginning and just walking up and down the driveways and then leaving, getting back in my car, never even knocking on the door or walking around the block or whatever. Or I see a car in the driveway and I'm like, definitely don't knock on that one. But over the period of those, that time, I finally got somebody that wanted to listen to me and talk to me. And because I still didn't know what I was doing and the seminar didn't have enough info, I started networking with some of the local.

Rio groups. And I met a guy there who ran the Rio group. And I ended up calling him up immediately and say, hey, can you help me out with this? Because I don't know what I'm doing. And he took over the whole assignment and took over the whole contract. And then we split the assignment fee 50-50. And I made about $5,000 on that one. And he pretty much did everything. But I learned it all. That's awesome. That's awesome. So a few things. One, yeah. So you bought the seminar. The seminar got you off your butt. You went out. You did it. And you didn't know what the hell you were doing. a seminar didn't actually explain anything. I think that is oftentimes the case, which is why, you know, one of the many, many, many reasons

that I harp against seminars know what you're getting into. But beyond that, so, you know, one of the things that Brandon and I like to talk about is, you know, getting out there and taking action. So you did that. And you got out there and you realized that you kind of were at this point where you couldn't move forward without some help. And then you went out and you found somebody to help you out through your local RIA, which is obviously a great resource.

just like BP to bigger pockets to find people. I love that. Just for the audience, can you explain the NODs and the defaults? And now that you've been doing this for a little while, how does that work? And what do people need to know about that? That's a good question.

The main thing is you've got to know your area, what state you're in, what county you're in. I mean, a lot of that stuff changes state to state and county to county when it comes to an NOD. And an NOD is a notice of default. At the time that I had started this, I was in California, Sacramento. I know. And the, an NOD, they actually would follow the rules back then, which was if you, meaning the banks and everything and stuff, you didn't make your payment over a period of time. Typically, you would get a 90 day or a notice of default, late notice basically, saying, hey, you have to pay this in 90 days or you're going to go into an NTS, notice of trustee sale, which is foreclosure. And then after you got your notice of trustee sale back then, you'd have 21 days in California before you went into foreclosure and you're basically your, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, house went to auction. And so you had 111 days from the notice of default to auction. And almost like clockwork back in 2004, 2005, the banks actually followed all that. Right now, people, from my

experience, seeing here, you know, they make, they don't make payments for two, three, four years and they still get the stay in the houses. We've all seen that lately. Yeah. But that's the difference there. And so you would be able to go to the counterrecorders and you'd get, you'd be able to pull up a piece of paper that they'd have on the desk. It would say the 10, 15, 20, 40, 60, whatever, 100 names on that list, that would be the current NODs, I'd look it up on their little pieces of paper, I mean, sorry, their computers that they had there, and then I would go find their addresses and go knock on their doors. Now you can get those with what intent, by the way? I mean, obviously you're trying to buy those properties, right? So from the perspective, this is a bit of like,

you know, foreclosure investing 101, right? Yeah, yeah. From the purpose of an investor, you wanted to get this as a deal, you know, before it becomes an REO or goes to auction, right? So how would somebody, how would you have actually acquired that property? What would you have done if somebody had this NOD was in financial trouble, not paying their note? What kind of process would you need to take at that point to actually acquire that property? Well, back then, I would have immediately tried to get it under contract. And for purposes, you've got to find out, you know, how much do they owe? What are they, what's their arrears, which is what's their back. whether they actually owe to the banks and so forth, to make up for their missing payments. And that would help also find out what your actual purchase price is going to be.

But when I was doing it then, I didn't know most of that. So I would just try to figure out what they wanted to sell the house for and then hopefully get under contract and go from there. But if I were doing it again back then, then I'd be using a lot more

than negotiation skills that I have now and being able to get them down as conveniently, as possible. Right on. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. That's cool.

So one thing you mentioned a minute ago was that the first deal, you didn't really know what you were doing. And so you went to somebody who, you know, the head of the area and you said, hey, we walk through this with me and do this with me and I'll split it with you. I mean, that's a tip that I tell people all the time. Josh tells people all the time. I hear it on the blog. Very few people actually ever do it.

But I just want to point out of that you did, I mean, exactly what I recommend people do is if you don't know what you're doing, it's better to get 50% of a great deal than 100% of no deal, right? So partner with somebody and have them walk you through it. Oh, hands down. Everybody I talk to you out there that's new is they're trying to do that, they're trying to make all their money on their first deal, right? At least from my experience, BNC it.

I was trying to at first too until I realized they didn't know what I was doing. I couldn't make anyone. So it's like 100% of nothing is nothing. So it's why not split it or why not go to somebody? Then you learn it all. And then you basically are paying for your education, but you're just making money on it. Yeah. And of course, I think the thing that sets it apart, though, is you came with the deal.

I mean, people message me a lot. Big difference. Hey, Brandon, will you teach me everything you know? And I'll split my first deal with you 50-50. You won't. No, I'm not going to do that. But you come to a deal with you come to me with a deal and then we'll talk. You know, if it's a good deal, then maybe we'll split it.

But yeah, the big difference between having the deal and not having the deal. Oh, if he comes with the deal, maybe we'll split. Look at this guy. Maybe. Maybe. You're not good enough for me. Yeah. They got to pass a test.

No, but I mean, you know, and we, you know, we. You said 50%. I mean, if you walk away with 25% and you've gone through the deal and you've learned the deal and they've done all the work, you know, it's still a great deal. It's still a great opportunity for a new investor because, I mean, frankly, the hardest thing about doing it is just doing it. I mean, it's that fear. It's overcoming the hurdle of getting that first deal done. So you do a deal, you get a tiny piece. You break even or make nothing. You've got that in your pocket. You know, go ahead and do your next deal and you'll make more money. fantastic. Well, it makes it real. It makes it real. So all this right now, I mean, if you're on bigger pockets on the forums and reading what everybody else is doing, it could be, it's make-believing your head until you actually do it. And then it becomes a reality. And then you have that confidence that you need to be able to continue to go forward and go do more deals. So what happened from there? You did this first deal, partner with the guy, then what? Second deal was very similar, very small. I think I made like 2,500 bucks on that one. But then

And the third deal that I did actually changed everything for me, my entire life, financially, everything. And through networking, I found actually at the same time I was starting to get my financial licensing. I was going to become a financial planner. I'd already dropped out of college by then. And I dropped out of college about two months after buying the seminar. And then we found this property. It was 40 acres. And it was in Smith River, California.

and a buddy of mine who I was working with, it was his girlfriend's property from her divorce. And so it was the last property that they had together and they couldn't get rid of it. So we ended up for whatever reason able to tie it up for $225,000. It appraised at $500,000 at a current status. And so we ended up having a long-term contract with them and we wholesaled it to somebody for $325,000 all the way in Kansas. And so they wanted a property on the West Coast. We made $100,000 on the deal. We ended up doing a double close, which you can't really do very much right now.

And I don't know if you guys are familiar with that. No, please, if you want to explain that. Double closes were a lot easier prior to the crash, but that's where you would do a double escrow. You'd have two purchase and sales agreements. So we had one for $225,000 on this property. And then we would submit that to escrow. And then we submitted another contract for $325,000 through us, as if we're the sellers, from the end buyer and submitted that into that's the same escrow.

And then the escrow agent would technically close on the 325 one and then use the funds to pay for the 225 one for us. And the difference that gets left behind would be the 100 grand or after closing costs. So you're basically using the cash from the cash buyer to fund the original purchase at your buying. So almost like just using their money for a short time without giving them anything for it. Yeah. Apparently they frown on that now because. Technically, you don't own the property when you goes to sell it. So they're giving you $325,000 when you don't even own it to go buy it then.

And so that's not something that's very well practiced in the U.S. anymore. So instead of double closing, then, what do you do or what do you call it when you're doing a wholesale deal today? Like, what would you do instead of that? You do an assignment contract. And so you would just assign it instead. It's a little bit easier to do. Back then, when you were getting $100,000 assignment through escrow as a double close, most of the reason why you did that because you didn't want people to know you were making $100,000.

and it was easier to withhold that information with a double escrow versus not everybody's happy to see a $100,000 assignment fee when you're the buyer. Yeah, that makes sense. I want to ask about the property itself. So you said you found the property. What kind of property was it and how did you actually find it? Well, it was I found it because this guy, Brett, who I worked with, it was his exes, sorry, his girlfriend's exes and their property. So just through talking to him and telling him what I was doing, and everybody I talked to, I was saying, hey, if you find a no property, if you see something that's distressed or whatever situation, send it to me and I'll pay you a referral fee. And if I end up buying it.

So I told that to everybody I knew. And one time I was telling him at that lunch, he then said he might have something. And we looked into it. So it was 40 acres. And it was in Smith River, California, which is just basically the border of Oregon and California. And that was about six and a half hours from us. And after looking at it, doing all the research, we got an appraisal on it, after we just tied it up, because that's all we, we just immediately tied it up for 225.

And because that's what they wanted. Doing all the research, it took some time for us to end up selling it because we didn't really, it's not very easy to sell 40 acres on the border of California and Oregon to just, you're not going to sell to the locals because they already have their properties. So we had to start marketing it out of state. And we just put together packages, you know, explaining what they could do to it. It already had septic on it. It already had well system on it.

And eventually, just through websites, somebody hit us up, and they flew themselves out there. We met them, walked their property, got it under contract with them, and closed about a month later. And it was great. That's awesome. That was a grand. Yeah, that was almost 11 years ago. So that was a while ago. Yeah.

So you've just been living on that eating ramen noodles for the last 11 years, right? Yeah. Yeah. So we can live. I'm rich, baby. I'm rich. Awesome. No, that's really cool.

So let's fast forward. Where are you today? Are you still wholesaling $100,000 deals all the time? What are you doing? No, we flip $100,000 deals now. So our niche is actually fix and flip, and that's kind of how talking to Brandon, how I got to know me a bit.

And right now we do pretty high volume, and for Seattle, at least high volume, fix and flip. And most of the houses we do are very old, and they're full remodels. They're not just cosmetics or anything. So what we would consider a cosmetic, most people would consider a full remodel. Can you explain? Give us a difference.

What typically are you doing on these things? So a lot of the houses we do, like a lot of people look at cosmetics as just a carpet, paint, you know, fix up, maybe update the kitchen a bit and throw it back on the market. Seattle's a little bit more challenging for that and the surrounding area. I mean, Brandy, know this. A lot of these houses here are 1912, 1940, like the newest house I think I ever bought was like 1987. but the average house, I looked it up before the podcast. I think our average age on all our houses in the last two years was like 1943. And so, yeah, so they're pretty old here.

And so it's kind of hard to just do a quick cosmetic. Because everything's broken on these things. I mean, like a lot of times when you're buying these, they're pretty messed up here. You can do some pretty cool cosmetics in the right areas, but Seattle's, to get the value, you actually need to do full remodels on these things. So our difference is we're almost always adding a bad. We're almost always updating to plumbing into the electrical. We're almost always putting on new roofs.

We're almost always doing all new windows. Pretty much when we're done with these houses, they look like brand new houses. Okay. That's awesome. What's your average cost on a rehab? We fluctuate a bit. We have one right now that we're at $240,000 on. And then I had another one.

We just finished that we were at $30,000. So Washington is a little different than the rest of the U.S. I've been fortunate enough to be in multiple states before, so we've gotten to see what the different contractors are in different states. And my unbiased opinion is that Washington has very, very expensive and not the best contractors that are out there. So we end up paying a lot more than what we would pay in other parts to the U.S. So our $30,000 remodel here might only cost $15 to $18 grand in different states. So, yeah, $55, $65,000 is probably what we average if I had to throw it out there. All right. So, I mean, you're typically spending, like you said, anywhere between 30. So, I mean, up 240, whatever thousand. Let's go through like a typical, what do you buy it for? What do you rehab it, like on average? What do you sell it for? What's your minimum profit you try to shoot for on a project?

So those are good questions. Purchase price, they're a little hard to answer here because we go from right now, currently, we go all the way from up to Seattle, all the way down to Portland. And so we're all over the place. And our purchase prices, you know, we're. We just bought one for 80 grand, but then I'm buying one next week for close to 500. And then we also just bought one for last month, actually three months ago for about 600. But then we bought another one for 200. And so they're a little over all over a way. What about like just what kind of profit do you look for? I mean, is it depend on the deal or do you just have a flat I make this much? No, we have a very strict guidelines for our ROIs, our rate of returns.

or return on investment and our criteria. So one of the things I see that a lot of people, as I'm talking to other investors out there, they don't always have the best criteria or they don't have any criteria. They just want to make money. They say, oh, I can make $20,000 on this, or I can make $10,000. But if you're putting out a ton of cash or a lot of risk on that property,

that's not really worth it. So our criteria is we based everything on a cash on cash basis. So what that means is that if I were to buy the entire property for cash, and also put in all the rehab for cash. What is the rate of return on that? And our goal is 15% based on that. It used to be 20. I always want everybody, I always want 100%.

But we've just lowered our standards maybe about, I don't know, about a year ago because things got more complicated and more competition. I did too when I took on my host here. But. So example of that might be just correct me if I'm wrong. So let's say a project was 200 grand and you had to put 100,000 into it. Now you got 300 grand into it. You're going to look for $45,000 in profit.

Yeah, that's 15%. So that's roughly, right? Yeah, that's right. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. There's one. Yeah, we're 45 grand. But that would be, that's just to measure the risk.

So that doesn't mean I'm buying it cash. I might still finance it. But I know at 15% with our construction experience and what we can do here. and it's good for my measure to know that even if I financed it, we still will make the return that we're looking for. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. I mean, I totally agree with it.

You're saying about a lot of people just say, I want to make money. I just want something. But when you have a specific goal, it gives you a benchmark to measure, I'm like, it's not arbitrary anymore. It's not just like, I feel good about this property. Is this going to give me the return I want? Well, if you tie up, you know, $600,000 in cash, you know, between purchase, repairs, things like that, and you end up with 20 grand. You know, I don't know. That's, you know, it's, you know, a little nervous, right? I mean, so, you know, just saying, hey, I want to profit from a flip. I like setting that minimum standard and, you know, that 15% works for you. You said you used to do 20. Why did, why did you drop it from 20 to 15? Because I want to be able to buy any properties. So it opened up the door to do more.

Yeah, the big, I mean, as the competition got higher and higher here, there's more and more people that were jumping into the market that maybe they got, maybe they're just, you know, better investors or maybe they just don't have to make as much of a margin to make it worth their risk. Or maybe they don't know what they're doing. So they're buying the properties at a higher value than they should. And so we were getting outbeat by a lot of other investors at times when we could have been buying great properties. And so some of these numbers that some of these guys were coming back with just didn't make any sense. but maybe they only need to make five grand or ten grand on a $500,000 flip or something to be able to make it happen, or maybe they didn't know better. So a lot of the guys have been getting saved by the market. And based on my opinion, meaning that the appreciation's been ridiculous and it's great when you're selling it.

But it also makes a lot of false expectations of what your next flip might look like if you're not careful. Sure. That makes sense. That makes sense. All right. So you mentioned also this idea that you invest in. in both or you flip in both Portland and in Seattle. Now, for those people unfamiliar with the Northwest, those are not neighboring cities.

That's not like they're next door to each other. I mean, those are, what, three hours away? Probably, is that right? Three hours? Is that a good driving? Yeah, that's three to half. All right. Because I'm kind of like, I'm like halfway in between the two, so it's like equal drive

to both. So why are you flipping at a three, three and a half hour difference? And that seems like a long way is to flip away from you. All right. So, I mean, the reason why we go to Portland is because we were struggling a little bit at one time about a year ago in finding more volume because we had all the funding to be able to do it and the competition was getting stronger in Seattle. And my past is everything I overdid was always out of state and all the systems that we've been able to create were originally created so that

way we don't ever have to really be at these houses very often. And so Portland was just the next best thing to kind of test can I do full rehabs and full scale rehabs from afar? And it was more of a challenge for myself and my team to see if we can do it. Because when we used to do stuff in the past, we had larger teams. I used to work with a company that we used to be able to do multiple states and multiple properties. And so for Portland, I just figured, okay, if we go over there and we find a house that just makes a lot of sense, we'll just have a higher criteria, we'll hire the best GCs that we could find for the value that we can get it for. And we'll just use our systems that we've created up in Seattle and just plug it into Portland and see if it works. And it's been working for

us pretty well. And I actually wish I could focus down there a lot more. We've just been so busy up here that it's taking us away a little bit from Portland recently. And I mean, you've been doing this for a number of years now. So like you have those systems in place, which I want to talk about systems here in a minute. But do you recommend newbies flipping from that distance? If they're on their first, second, third flip. Should they be flipping at a three hour distance? No, only if it makes sense, though. And it just depends on the numbers on the property and what's their past experience. do they understand rehab enough, right, to be able to do that? I think buying holds are a little bit easier further away because you can always hire a property manager

and you can always, you know, just have boots on the ground to be able to do that. But if somebody's, you know, got family or if somebody has people that they know that are very local and that they trust a lot, then maybe if they have the right systems, they can flip from afar. But if they don't know what, you know, how to do any rehab whatsoever. And if a contractor is, you know, jerking them around or, If they actually know what things should cost or anything like that, then they probably shouldn't flip from afar. Yeah.

Yeah. Makes sense. All right. So just so we get an idea, how many total deals have you done so far? In my career? Yeah. Probably close around 500. Wow.

Yeah. So that's over 11 years, though. And a huge bulk of that, though, was over the last four and a half, five years. Okay. And so how many are you doing per year now? Last year, we did 38 full rehab. and then a handful of wholesales. This year right now, we've already done 22 full-scale rehabs that we've sold,

and we currently have 16 houses right now that out of those 16, they're all at various stages. A handful of them are already in escrow to be sold, and then a bunch of them are still in rehab. So I want to ask about that because, you know, you clearly are managing lots of things at once. So I've got two questions here. One, how do you make a decision on what you're going to wholesale

and what you're going to flip. You did talk about having access to cash, so I do question why wholesale when you could go and flip it. And then the second is, you said you have 16 properties at various stages. That's not an inconsequential amount of property that are being worked on, so to speak.

How big is your team? There's three of us. It's me and two other people right now. Got it. All right. So back to the first question. Okay. The, what was the first question?

Wholesale versus. Oh, okay. That's true. Actually, when we, I actually don't wholesale very much at all anymore. And it's more just of an opportunistic thing. Like, we get a property sent to us that just maybe just doesn't fit my criteria. And we might send it to a few other people. Just real quick.

Say, you're interested. If you are, just, you know, pass us a few bucks, like kind of a thing. But it used to be when I was getting more actively into flips more and more and more. And people started knowing me more as the flip guy. And we would wholesale. People would question. why I was wholesaling it. They were like, wait a second,

if you're not buying this thing, why the hell should I buy it? And I'm like, no, trust me, it's good. So that, honestly, almost every house that we look at now is based on can we flip it or can we keep it. And the wholesales now are just more of a, hey, this just doesn't fit our criteria because maybe it's a bigger rehab or it's a tear down

or it's a land deal and we just don't do new builds or anything like that. And there's plenty of guys here that do that. And we just flip the. to them instead. Got it. Got it. And just one more thing, and I know Brandon is dying to jump in here.

Dying. Dying. So you said something to the effective. We had all the funding we needed to do more deals. That sounds pretty good. I mean, since you are Odin, you can just generate cash, you know, on your own here, obviously. Fear by wrath.

Yeah, for us mere mortals, how does one get access to all the funding you need to do more. In other words, how'd you get the funding? Good question. That's actually, I'll give me the short answer. Like, is really the majority of my success all comes back down to just networking and networking, networking, networking, and just being very direct and very honest with people about what we got going on, who we are, you know, just always doing what's right for on a deal. Like if it's protecting the investor, protecting the person that's investing with us always first. So that way we have that reputation that if somebody invest with us, then they're going to be taken care of. So back, there's a lot of stories here, so I'll just try to keep it simple.

About three years ago, close to three years ago, two and a half years ago or so, I had a business partnership fail, and we had been doing a lot of value, a lot of properties together across the U.S., and it totally devastated me. But during that, prior to that failure, we had developed a lot of lenders throughout the U.S. and people that just knew us from our ability to be able to do volume and be able to buy houses and be able to basically funnel properties to other investors and so forth. And my role during that whole business was that I flew around. I met lots of people.

I networked with everybody. I built all the relationships with everybody. So I was pretty much the point of contact all the time. So when the partnership failed and a few months later, I got a call from one of the people that used to fund us and they wanted to start buying in Washington again. and they wanted to buy it with me. So they basically gave me a pocket, like a checkbook for $5 million roughly. And so go ahead and let's partner.

And we all split the profits on that. What was their name? And you know of this? Yeah, right. Well, I don't partner with them anymore. That only lasted a few, like about six months because I was then doing that partnership was good. It just got me into position to where I was doing all the work for only a third of the profit.

And the, because we were splitting it three ways. So it just didn't really match for me. And funding is actually a lot less expensive than two-thirds of the profit if you know what you're doing. By the way, really, really quick on that, we in the beginning of the show talked about, you know, it's great to give away a piece of the deal when you're just getting started and you don't know what you're doing. Obviously, the opposite applies as well. When you know what you're doing, you want to give away far less when you're doing all the work. Yeah.

Yeah. And the deal made sense at the time because we were going to grow into multiple states again and we were going to be, and I'll have less of an active role. But then it ended up being where I was doing 100% of everything. And all the other group was doing was writing a check. And that's why it only lasted about five, six months of actually actively doing it because then all the expansions never happened. The growth never happened. It all stayed in Washington and it all stayed on my shoulders. And so I just said, all right, I'm done with this.

And then it just started going off on my own again. Cool. You mind me asking, like, today when you work with private lenders, what kind of ranges are we talking about? What do you pay typically for private lending from these people? That's a good question. I don't do equity splits very much anymore. So the difference between paying like a rate of return versus paying an equity share or profit share is you have your normal lenders out there that you could pay 6, 8, 10, 12, 14 percent annualized, right? Which is like a hard money loan or a private lender.

And then you just got equity share. Say, hey, I'll split it 50-50 or 60-40 or 70-30 or whatever. And most of the deals I do, I do with just private lenders, which are just individuals that I pay, like my favorite guy I pay 10% to. And I could probably get somebody for less, but he's just the easiest to deal with. And I prefer simplicity over complications. And from my experience, there's always cheaper money. It's just what's the real cost of that money? And does it mean I have to report to somebody every single day?

Is it hard to get the money? Do they need two weeks to analyze it? Or can I just make a phone call? and they wire the money, like, what's the easiest way to do it? And I'd prefer that more than anything. I love it. That's awesome. But that doesn't happen overnight, right? I mean, being able to get on the phone and have somebody send you cash, I mean, you have to establish and prove yourself. So, for somebody who's maybe not very, very, very beginning, but, you know, somebody who's been growing their business, how do they do that? How do they demonstrate and prove to potential private

lenders that, you know, they can be trusted that, you know, you don't have to scrutinize every single thing anymore. No, I think that's, that's an excellent question because I think most investors don't keep track of what they even do. And so they just are winging it most of the time. And they're buying, they're investing, but they don't take pictures of their houses, right? Or they don't keep, or they don't keep them, right? They just have them somewhere in their cell phone.

And they don't. I'm really guilty of that. You really go look at that? Terrible of that, yeah. I keep telling myself, I need to get organized with pictures. Yeah, I can show you how to do that. But they don't have a portfolio or they don't have, they can't sit there and pull up on their their drop box.

Hey, here's what we did. Here's our profit and loss sheet. Here's our numbers on it. Here's the rehab. Here's the before photos. Here's the during photos. Here's the after. You know, being able to show, hey, you're a professional business that knows what they're doing

is something that almost no investors do. So if they come up to somebody that's a successful, wealthy individual, that's already made their money and they're willing to then lend it. And they go, hey, just trust me. I do really cool houses and give me your money. You know, that's kind of hard to get somebody to trust them that much unless maybe it's a family member. Makes sense. Makes sense. Here's the truth about passive investing. If the strategy isn't right on day one, the returns won't save it. Multi-family real estate offers structural advantages. Many investors are overlooking, including depreciation that can help offset taxable income while cash flow continues.

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We have a thing called a portfolio tracker. It's not very popular. I mean, like we never really broadcasted that wide and large. I don't really know why we didn't. But anyway, it's kind of a cool little app. We just built a very, not app on a phone, but a cool little program. If you go to bigger pockets.com slash portfolio, you can actually enter in your portfolio. You kind of keep track of what you've got going, what you currently own, especially if you're doing rentals or, you know, flips.

You can kind of keep track of that. So again, go to biggerpockets.com slash portfolio, check it out. And it's kind of a cool little thing that we built. So anyway. It's a very basic, that's cool. E1 beta version, by the way, which, you know, if people start to use it and love it and want it to do more, we're happy to do that. Yeah. Yeah, there's so many tools out there.

I mean, like Bigger Pockets, you guys have lots and lots of tools that I think are underutilized probably from a lot of people that are members. And, I mean, I didn't even know that one existed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We do a lot of, like, soft launches on stuff. we like we have people try it out, test it out and play with things. And if people like it, then if people like it more, we make it better and better. And it's kind of our, our process.

So let's go back to you. Josh, Josh, you should probably hire a marketer, like, or somebody that's like the face of your business to be able to, like, tell people about products. I heard Snoopy was looking for a job. I heard Snoopy was, you could hire Snoopy. And, you know, the dog, he could come on and, you know, do your, anyway, moving on. All right, so I want to talk about. We market the things that are ready to market. Slow on the things that we want to be slow on and diligent. It's all part of the plan.

It's all intentional. Thanks, Carl. Yeah, you're a good man. All right. So you've been doing, you had 38 flips last year. You're done 22 right now. You got 16. So my guess is that you are probably swinging the hammer.

You're at the house every single day. You're doing all the hands on work, right? I mean, like, you know, obviously. Okay, obviously. So I don't sleep. You don't sleep. Yeah, I mean, come on. I mean, you're tarl, right?

Like Odin, right? You don't need to sleep. You're a mythological god. So instead of that, for those people, again, who are mere mortals, we have to have systems in place. And I know you're a systems guy. So first of all, I want to start out this conversation about systems with what does that even mean? What do I mean when I say you're a systems guy and you like systems? I like developing processes to where we don't have to consistently continue to do meticulous, mundane activities.

So that when you're flipping these houses, you know, why pick 16 different faucets? Why not just have one, right? And have it written down somewhere with the skew number and the how much it costs so that you can hand it to the contractor. And also include a picture so that you don't have to get any confusion later. And why not choose that before you even talk to the contractor? Just things like that that just helps condense these timeframes and then having it stored somewhere. Like we have our own systems to be able to do that, but having it actually a, process, a process in your flip business or in your buying hold business or whatever it is

that you're doing out there, just have a process for it and follow it and not just wing it all the time and react, always constantly reacting. Okay. So, and I love that. I love systems, a lot of processes. Where would you say, like, where do you keep your system? I mean, are you just uploading Google Drive? Do you got it on an Evernote?

I mean, how do you keep your systems together and document things? So Google Drive is great. And I know I have some friends that use that. We use Dropbox for a lot of stuff, and we also use a program called Basecamp. And Basecamp is what we use for our project management and what we use to be able to communicate as a team and with everybody involved in it. And then Dropbox we use as a file storage. And every property we have is set up the exact same way. So that way, anybody can pick it up and know exactly what's going on with it at any time.

That's cool. I've not used Basecamp. I use Trello in my business. I don't know if you guys use Trello at all. But it's a simpler, it sounds like a much simpler version of Base Camp. But yeah, we keep track of all of our projects in there. We move things over across as they're getting done. And totally made business like real estate less of a headache and less stressful.

How would somebody, again, I think it's great. I think there's probably countless, quote, sophisticated investors who are not systematizing their businesses who are using pencil and paper and their brains to manage. and maintain it. How would somebody go about starting to systematize their business? Did you find a book on just processes? Was it just like one thing at a time, hey, you know what? Okay, this makes sense. What Charles talking about is great.

You know what? We're going to start figuring this out. Fossets. We're going to first do faucets and we'll take a picture. We'll get the skew and we'll put it somewhere. And then we're going to do countertops. And then we're going to do sinks and then just kind of work through it. Is it as simple as that?

It is now, but I can tell you right now how I got into it was we, I don't want to, I was going to cuss, but we screwed up so much stuff in the past that I just got tired of making the same mistakes all the time. And that's been, and the thing that I could give the advice to anybody that's new out there is that you don't have to make all the mistakes. Like, you shouldn't. Like, please don't make all the same mistakes and stuff. There's plenty of people on bigger pockets that have already made those mistakes that you could just copy what we did and or copy what we do, not what we did, because that would be the mistakes. Yeah.

But I mean, something as simple as, like, people can just start by just taking photos of your properties. I mean, that's a huge thing for me. And on our Dropbox, we have a, every single property has a rehab picks folder, right? So it has before photos. And we know, we're not talking about 10 photos. We're talking, we take on average between 60 to 110 photos every single time we walk these properties.

And the reason for that is we want every angle of the property. it only takes a few minutes to do it. If you just run through the property real quick with your cell phone, you can take 60, 80, 100 photos pretty quickly and take the photos like you're walking a house, right? And so that way you can refer back to them if, let's say that, you haven't been to the house in a week, and you've had two other contractors go there.

And one of them's blaming the other contractor that they broke, you know, sorry, damage some drywall, or you just refinished your heart, this happened to us. We just refinished your hardwoods, and then a contractor goes in there and does drywall without waiting for the clear coat to dry, and then there's drywall just gone in there. Everybody blames everybody else for what actually happened,

but we have photos. We can go back because we have photos that show, hey, there was nothing there after the hardwoods were done, and then the drywall guy showed up too early because he came earlier. Are you going through after every X period and then retaking those photos? So are you doing photos in process? Yes.

You know, oh, you are? Okay, so how often are you doing that, you know? A minimum of once a week. week, every property is we get photos of. Probably two to three times a week is more realistic for us because we're just, we're driving them. And so the, I'm not always driving them, but other people are. And then the, they upload them automatically into Dropbox. So while they're at the property, we take the photos and whoever's there just puts it right onto their phone and uploads it into Dropbox. And it's just more of a habit now. So that way we just have records. And this

has protected us from litigation. I mean, there's all sorts of stuff that just that little simple thing It could also build a portfolio to show to private money lenders, but it could also show protect you from other things. I love that. So take the example of the drywall guy and the flooring guy. It sounds like the drywall guy, you know, started too soon. So how did you bring the photos in to kind of prove that? Well, it's because we already had photos and the drywall guy is disputing that, you know, he didn't do that, that was already there before you started. Right after the hardwoods were done, it just so happened that we were already at the property.

we were able to take photos through it. Drywall guy was supposed to cover the floors before he started doing any of his. It was just, you're talking, we probably should have done the drywall before we even did the hardwoods, right? That would be the normal construction 101 thing. But this was a unique situation based on repair. We didn't realize we needed. And we had to open up the wall and so forth.

Ultimately, that guy was supposed to cover the floors up. And we can prove when the drywall guy was saying, hey, I didn't do the, I didn't hurt your floors. They were already that way, right? We showed Hardwood guy was done. Here are the photos. You were the only other guy to show up afterwards, and here's the photos after you were done. Right. So here's proof.

So he ended up having a cover. Yeah, he ended up having to rebuff the floors and stuff and pay for it. Because he never covered up the floors. And we got tons of tons of stories like that. Something as simple as a drywaller covering up an outlet for an electrical outlet. And we're like, why is the electrical not working in the room? Because there's one outlet that never got figured out. And then you're like, well, where is it?

Does anybody remember? And then you look up all the photos and you can see, oh, the outlet's right there. And so without having to cut tons of sheetrock trying to find a stupid outlet. That's awesome. I love it. I love it. Yeah, that's great. I bet you the vast majority of people are not doing this.

I fully agree. I'm going to start doing this right now. It's simple. That's what allowed us to invest out of state multiple times in the past was that And that's what created this habit for me and my team is when we'd go to a different city or different city or even in Portland, I immediately would network with five, six, seven different realtors and a bunch of realtors and a bunch of contractors. But when we would buy a house, I would ask people the wholesalers and realtors at favors that wanted to work with us, hey, do me a favor. Can you go buy that house and take some photos from me and send them to me, right? And they were then checking on the contractors for me.

And then you could have three, four people a week driving these houses for you because they want to work with you. and you're not paying them anything, and they're sending you photos, and they're checking on the, and they're unbiased because they're not getting paid by the, they're not the contractor, they're not the realtor that's listing that house. And you can also have the realtor that's listing that house, take the photos for you too. And now you'd never have to go to it, and you're always constantly seeing what's going on with the property. It's pretty simple. That's great.

That's cool. Simple, simple, simple. And I love, like you said, you know, a lot of, like, a lot of the systems that we have in our business were built off of the mistakes we've made or frustrations, right? So I wrote a blog post like a year ago on this exact thing. I said, I think it was called, if you're frustrated, your system's broke. It's basically like, I mean, a good example of that. The other day, we couldn't find the picture. I mean, it was actually a picture thing. So the other day, we could not find pictures of the inside of a house. We're trying to get funding, working with a private lender. And I want, he asked for some

pictures inside. I looked on like, I seriously have like seven hard drives, like portable hard drives around my office. I looked on every single one. I spent like seven hours looking for stupid pictures, never could find them. I know there's somewhere. I don't know where. And I was like, okay, so if I'm frustrated, if I'm irritated, my system's broken. And so we're like, okay, so we go to Google, so we're building it in Google Drive now, which is similar to Dropbox. We're just making folders of property. And then we're, yeah.

So if you're frustrated, if you're angry, if you're irritated, if you're stressed, something's not right in your system. So ask yourself, how do we fix that and then do it? Yeah, correct. It makes it. So now all of a sudden you're running around with your head cut off and trying to, you know, drive to this property or drive over there. Look for photos all day like you just said versus if you already had it in place and you just did that little bit of extra work up front, then it saves you a tremendous amount of

challenges later, and frustrations later. I love that. It's getting organized is just, it's, it's so important as we've been scaling bigger pockets. You know, we've realized like, you know, hey, how do we transform? How do I go from doing everything to getting other people to do it? You have to put the processes in place for them to be able to take over. So, you know, you, you, for example, have built a business that's scalable now, right? So you, you have theoretically could step out of the business, go away for a few weeks, and here's how it works. Here's the manual. Here's the process.

Done. It's funny that you just brought that back up. I brought that up, sorry. I just got back last night from my honeymoon. And I've been gone. Congrats. I've been, thank you. I've been gone for two weeks.

And with zero cell phone signal, zero communication, I completely went off the grid. And I only turned my phone on last night. So and made a quick conference call with my team just to see, make sure the houses weren't burnt down and that they still worked with me. And yeah, everything went pretty good. I mean, there was challenges, of course, while I was gone. But because of what we put in place, they were able to rely on those processes and continue to move things forward. And pretty much everything's on track. What it would have been even if I was here.

It probably worked better because I was gone and out of the way. Yeah. And I'm guilty in the past of not taking vacations and not doing that. And a lot of the reason was a lack of systems, a lack of processes, a lack of people too. But, you know, yeah, so for folks who are listening, you know, you don't have to actually be tied down. You don't have to be tied to your business. But in order to get out, you have to figure out how to create their systems and processes for sure. I know here.

Go ahead. No, you go ahead. You are. Oh, you go ahead. So the, no, I mean, it's, it's the whole vacation thing for me is a new, new concept as well, but it's because I didn't, I've spent the last two years not taking a vacation. So this was actually the first one for me in two years where I completely disconnected. And it's opened my eyes to be like, I need to keep working on my systems even more because I can't keep going the pace I was going prior to this. Mine was nine years, by the way.

Just saying, not that we're competing with anything. By the way, that's a. sign of stupidity. The fact that I went nine years with an actual, legit off-the-grid vacation. Well, you've been doing a good job lately, Josh. I mean, Josh has been having every, I mean, where there's 20-some people at bigger pockets now.

Everybody's making these like manuals on what we do and like this step-by-step processes. So like I've got like a 20 or 30-page document on exactly how I do webinars because like Josh wants to make sure that we have a system for everything. And speaking of webinars, like that transition. Oh, there you go. coming up this next week. We're talking about five things to know before about a rental property.

Seriously, these five things are vital. And hopefully you guys can all make it. You can sign up at biggerpockets.com slash webinar and hope to see you there. You like that transition? Wasn't that smooth? Which, by the way, speaking of rental properties, Tarle, you doing any rental properties? That was a lot. That happened.

Yeah. Trash and transitioned right back. Before we handle that transition, I just want to make sure, Brandon, that you're a little careful with all those manuals that Josh is making you make because that, That might be telling you something about the future. Yep, making me a little bit. A little bit. What's the word replaceable?

That's exactly what it is. Everybody should be replaceable, including me. I fully agree. I fully agree. That's pretty much, I think, how you want to run a business. I mean, you can't have a place in your business where if X, Y, and Z happens, you're screwed. I mean, it just can't happen. And obviously when you're first getting started, that is you.

But as you start to scale it up and build a team, that changes. And again, obviously not everybody wants to do that. Not everybody wants to build a big real estate business. In this case, you have done that you are doing that. But there's lots of people who just, hey, I want to own a couple properties just on the side. That's great. You don't have to worry about it. You still want to have processes to kind of cover yourself.

You still want to be organized. But you don't necessarily have to do it with the intent of, you know, hey, how are we going to keep flipping houses when I go away for two weeks off the grid to where by the way? Oh, we went to the Galapagos Islands. Wow. That's cool. Yeah. Very nice. Swam with all the turtles, sharks. That's awesome. To add a little bit to that, like, you don't also have to have a massive business flipping 30 houses a year or run a, you know, bigger pockets to have systems. I mean, when I think about like any business, I mean, think about what if you got hit by a bus and your husband or wife had to take over the business? Like, would you be hurting them for the next 10,

years of your life because you left them with a mess. You know, would you be hearing your kids with your parents? Like wherever you are, even if you have one rental property, you should have that systematized in case something happens to you so that somebody else could take over. Yeah. It just runs better that way. I mean, we did, we got to, I got to speak a couple weeks ago to one of the local Ria's here.

And what they wanted me to speak on was like showing that how do we do the volume that we do, but condense it all the way down to one house, right? If you're only doing one property and that's it. And if you just follow, if you. you follow your systems, then that property should be running 10 times better if you have a system to begin with. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. And, you know, to Brandon's point, we actually did, it was our fifth show. It was BiggerPockets podcast slash show, biggerpockets.com slash show five. What was it? Yeah, show five or five. I think it was show five. Neil Frankel,

and the show was called Dealing with Death. And I, if you have not listened to that show, I think it's probably one of the single most important shows that we've ever done. done here on the podcast. It's relevant to absolutely everybody. And it's really all about just organizing yourself for your spouse or your family, things like that, how to plan, how to prepare yourself for your own death, which is obviously morbid, but absolutely essential. So, you know, I definitely recommend if you have not listened, go ahead and do that, BiggerPockets.com slash show five. And apologies if we sucked back then. We probably still sucked that. That was a long time ago. It was a long time ago. We didn't know what we were doing.

But, you know. I mean, yeah, but Tarle never answered the rental property. question today. Oh, yeah. Are you doing rentals? So I do, I do the burr. As I say it, burr. Yeah, burr. You got to do like a shiver with it. Burr. What is burr? Buy it, rehab it, refinance it, rent it. But we do the rent it, then refinance. Yeah, rent it, refinance. Yeah, that's what I do it. Whatever way it's supposed to do it. So the, I don't know if I'm doing it right. The, and it's actually challenging here in the Pacific Northwest to find properties that cash flow. And this is a high appreciation market on our part. And so, like, Like for instance, we just sold a house that was just a four-bedroom two-bath, two thousand square-foot Rambler, right, in Bellevue.

And a Rambler is like a rancher, depending on where you're from. We sold for 700,000. There's no way I could rent that thing out and make any kind of profit on it, right? And so it's a little bit challenged to do that here if you want cash flow. So we do keep the ones that are opportunistically, they work well, but they're almost always just destroyed trashed houses that are in area. Like in our area, it would be Pierce County, which would be Tacoma area, and to where we can rent them out to make a profit. So we just did a house where we bought it for 80 grand, and we put 32 into it, refinanced it.

And so we was able to get everything out of it. And then, but it rents for $1,400 a month. And it's, it cash flows almost $600 a month doing it that way. And so for, but I just, if I flipped it, this is what's hard, right? So if you do the numbers here, that $600 a month was just a little exciting. but if I would have flipped it, I would have made about $38,000 flipping it. And so that's kept me away from buying holds for a long time because I go like, well, 38 grand now or $600.

That's going to take me, I don't know, five, six, seven, eight years to make the same amount of money. And that is tough. That is tough, right? Trying to transition out of the business of flipping or any kind of business where you make a lot of money and trying to put in the longer term investments. It's tough to know that. But you are headed that direction, it sounds like.

Yeah, definitely. The big thing is I don't want to keep having to work for every single one of these properties. And so it's been a transition for me mentally to go, hey, I sell that house. That's the last time I'm making a dollar on that house ever. And it's, this is a full, when you flip houses full time, it's a job. It's a, there's no passive income stream on that. It's very challenging to systematize and pull yourself away from a 100% flip business. And versus if you're buying and holding and doing more passive.

real estate, then eventually you can take yourself out of the business a little bit easier. And so I'm working towards transitioning to that quite a bit. That's cool. Well, if people want to know more about the Burr strategy, we wrote up an e-book on that strategy is totally free, no opt-in or nothing. I mean, you just go and download it's at biggerpockets.com slash burr, B-R-R-R-R-R, so four-Rs. And you can also actually analyze properties using our Burr calculator, which is probably one of my favorite tools in the entire world.

I use it every single day because I love the Burr Straters. So check that out at biggerpock.com slash kelk. All right. So kind of to wrap up the whole systems conversation, one thing you said at the very, very beginning, we just glossed over it, but I love that you said it. Systems allow you to live, stop living reactively and start living proactively. You said something like that. And I love that.

That's like perfectly sums up why we have systems, checklist processes, things like that. It's not because we love TPS reports and we like to be office space and, you know, where's my stipular? But like we do these things because they help us to define what we want out of life, not just to constant react. Correct. I love that. I love that.

No, that's the biggest thing. Because it's when we buy these houses and you're three, four, five weeks later having this huge issue and you look back and you realize, well, if I would have just spent an extra hour planning this thing, then I wouldn't be running around trying to figure. Now, this is a huge problem. That's going to cost thousands of extra dollars because we didn't take the time to deal with it before. You do enough of those problems. Eventually, you start figuring out how to not keep repeating those same mistakes. Love it. Love it.

So what's next for you? Continue to improve systems. But for us, right now, I'm actually looking to go out of state even more and take what we've developed and just buying different markets. Because I know that we're in a unique situation where we are because we're doing a lot of hardcore rehabs that if we took the same system, we had created here and moved it to a different state, we'd be able to do it even better, in my opinion, with less work. I think it's actually easier to be out of state than in-state. Because when it's in-state, I drive these properties, right?

When it's out of state, I can't drive the property. So it ends up like this. Me being gone for the last two weeks is open my eyes that I've got to stop driving properties like personally. That's what other people are for. And the, because I'm always in my car and everything takes forever to get anywhere. So I'm going to end up partnering with, I'm going to bring on another partner.

into the business. And the two of us, because he's got some unique skills that I don't have, the two of us combined, we think we can definitely take over a couple different states out there and build more freedom in our lives by doing that. And that's what I'm working towards. Awesome. Cool. Hey, before we move on to the fire round, I do have one question.

Just in the conversation you had with our kind of producer, Hillary, you mentioned to her something about the idea of you interviewed 67 general contractors in three days. Can you tell us that story real quick? I was like, I knew if it didn't come up in our conversation, I had to be. I'd ask you about at the end. Okay, so that's good. So one of the, about, was it, 2011, I partnered up with a company called Charter Home Alliance out of Arizona.

And I became, I was a consultant for them. And I helped opening them up into different states for, they were a Fannie Mae construction company. So they worked with Fannie Mae. Fannie Mae gave them the REOs, the real estate owned properties. And they would fix them up, right? So, but they did it all from area. This is where I learned some of my systems.

They did it all from Scottsdale, Arizona. And at the time that the two of us partnered, they were just opening up in Washington. So I took over Washington for them. Through the course of 2011, 2012, and 2013, we went to seven different states. And that also led to a bunch of different networking. And that's how we got into flips, multiple states too. But we opened up into Chicago. And so we literally had one week to start Chicago.

And Fannie Mae said, hey, we need you in Chicago. Go out there. I didn't know anybody in Chicago. I never been to Chicago. And probably the biggest missing piece that most people have to networking is that they don't utilize their title agents and their escrow agents out there. So I immediately, I have a partnership locally with Fidelity. So I called up Fidelity here. And then they introduced me to their sales managers in Chicago.

I told them what we were doing. And I said, hey, does anybody in your team know contractors? And they then proceeded to set up through my direction and my coordination with them to set up group meetings. with contractors in multiple different places in Chicago. All this happened within a week. I fly out to Chicago the next week and in three days went to five different group meetings with 67 GCs and they all feel like and just interviewed all of them and just went to the town on it.

But that's, but I didn't set up a single one of those meetings. I had my title agents locally in Chicago did that for me. Wow. And that's leverage. That's being able to work with people. And the reason why they want to do that is because they know that we'll provide business for them and be able to get them more business. And so I think there's a lot of missing opportunities for people out there to how can they

provide more value to other investors, to other, even just to title agents, to escrow agents, to mortgage brokers, to realtors, whatever, and share business with each other and then help each other out and build a, build a company. I love it. That's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. All right. Well, hey, let's shift gears here and head over to the world famous fire.

It's time for the fire round. These come direct out of the Bigger Pockets forums. And of course, everybody listening to this should be engaged there 24-7. Just kidding. But at least try to jump in every couple days over at biggerpockets.com slash forums. Number one, should newbies flip a house without seeing the property? Newbies, that's really tough. Unless they really understand rehab and they can get a whole bunch of photos and even better yet,

a bunch of photos and a video. and they can analyze the properties or have somebody in their partnership or team that can analyze the rehab part of it, depending on where you are. And I say this coming from the Pacific Northwest where you can have an entire house with knob and tube, electrical, and not know it

just by looking at pictures. Or having faulty, or the house can be completely crooked to where six inches in a 10 foot space, it drops it down six inches, right? That never happened, right? That is never happened. And you wouldn't know unless you were there.

So unless you're in an area that has a lot of newer houses, I would totally avoid that as a newbie, unless you have background and being able to do stuff like that. Perfect. All right. How do you find the bulk of your deals? So the bulk of my deals come from wholesalers. So we probably 99% of them right now come from wholesalers out there. And that's through us networking and working with wholesalers, teaching some of them how to find the deals. And we do zero marketing right now as a team.

it's all networking 100%. Anything on market doesn't make sense. Unless it's maybe a short sale, that's somebody had tied up, and then we just buy the LLC from them. And then the, or almost everything else is from wholesalers signing assignment contracts off market. That's awesome. So you get your deals about marketing.

Somebody else handles all the marketing. They handle all the dealing with the motivated sellers. They handle all that. You guys just pick up the deals and go and run with it. I love that. They need some more wholesalers in my area. Yeah. I mean, it's having the reputation of no,

No bull shit. No messing around. Just if it's a good deal or not, you know, that we are going to close. We'll treat them fair. Everybody gets paid and keeping it simple. Yeah. Fantastic. No problem. I love it. All right. Number three, I'm struggling to decide what path to take. Should I flip? Should I wholesale? Should I do rental properties? Depends how much money do you have? How much time do you have to put into whatever, you know, avenue you choose? What's your goals? What's your end goals? What's your, do you want a whole bunch of cash at once? Or do you want it spread out? Do you want the leverage abilities of the buying a hold? What's your local market like? So these are all things that people need to really self-analyze and figure out, was it just because

they, you know, see HDTV and they think it's really cool that everybody flips on there and makes a bunch of money, or they like decorating and they want to do a flip? Or do they just want the cash flow of a rental? So if they can figure that part out first and analyze their local market to see what's the better fit for it, then that would help them make their decision. All right on. Last question. I'm going to tweak this a bit. The question was, what's the best market in the country, in your opinion, to flip houses? I'm assuming you don't know every market in the country. So how would I go about determining if my market was a good market to flip houses? How about that? I've never been asked that question. So that's good. I would definitely, one, is you can go network with your local investors and talk to them too. So go to your local Rias, go to whatever local network group, bigger pockets for sure, and ask other investors. that way. What are they investing in? If you talk to everybody in your local RIA and they're all buying old guys, that might give you an idea pretty quick. Also, when you're analyzing your deals,

if you know from your personal house that, you know, there's not a lot of appreciation and it's more of a slow appreciation, maybe like the middle of the United States, that might tell you a thing or two as well. But I've never been asked that. So that's a pretty interesting to think that way. Well, I mean, I think, like you said networking. I mean, I kind of think if people are doing it, then it probably works. You can find a lot of people that are making money. I think that's a bad. That's really a bad way to.

No, I mean, well, think about it. The average guy doesn't know their head from their backside in terms of real estate investing. Yeah, sophisticated investors do. But like, you know, just because somebody's buying property and calling themselves an investor doesn't mean they're an educated investor. No, I'm saying if you see TARL in Seattle,

I can assume Seattle's probably a market you can make money flipping. Absolutely. You find some who's succeeding at it already, then it obviously works there. If, like, you know, John, your neighbor is like, I've been flipping houses. Good, John. That's great. Yeah, that doesn't mean anything. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, I'll do that. Yeah, and like what you said they're branded too is that it's, it's, be careful who you're listening to and who you're taking advice, like what Josh said. And because there's a lot of, the more networking you do out there locally, you'll meet a lot of talkers, a lot of people that might sound like they know what they're doing. but they really don't do anything. And it's just kind of see if the proofs in the pudding, maybe go walk one of their houses, see if they even have a house. And, yeah, that might give it a little bit more credibility too.

Love that. Love it. Cool. All right, cool. Well, hey, let's shift gears over to the end of the show, which we lovingly call our Famous for. All right, these are the same questions we ask every guest every week,

so we're going to throw them at you right now. Number one, what is your favorite real estate-related book? Well, everybody on your podcast, podcast says rich dad poor dad poor dad did change my life when i was 17 but believe or not i don't read a lot of real estate books i read like almost none but i did probably the best one i read over the last couple years that changed my business was actually one of your guys's bigger pockets books um it's actually the one that j scott wrote on how to estimate rehab yeah and and i think people don't use that book correctly based on the people that i've talked to locally they think that they're going to learn

everything there is about rehab and how to bid a house based on just reading it. I see I found it for me because I used to have a partnership where the ex-partner was the rehab guy, not me. I didn't know anything about rehab. And I would buy the houses and run the numbers, but I would literally sit in the house and let the G.C. and the realtor box the whole time why I played on my phone, and I wouldn't pay attention to anything. And so with that partnership failed, I had to start learning rehab. And it was actually Jay Scott's book that helped me be able to have a conversation with a contractor and know what a ledger board is and know what the things are on these houses. And then also what I think people could do is they could take the ranges of what he provides in that book.

So that way, if they don't know anything about rehab and they get bids back and they see that, hey, you know, it should cost between X and X based on what Jay Scott wrote, then that should give them a good idea if they're right around where they need to be. And so I don't know if any of that makes sense, but that helped me have a lot on my business when I went off my own. And you could pick that up at biggerpockets.com slash flipping book. We sell it along with the book on flipping houses, or you can just buy it direct on Amazon. Or on bigger pockets. Forget the, I think bigger pockets slash store. Yeah, slash store.

Yeah, you can buy it individually. Cool. All right, good deal. Yeah. I'll get a plug that book too. It was awesome book. And I agree. A lot of people just think if they get that book, it's going to tell them this is how much a roof costs.

But it doesn't. I mean, it says this is a range. It's different everywhere. But here's how you estimate it. And that's the real value is it works everywhere because it doesn't tell you a number. it tells you how to figure out the number on your own. Yeah, and it tells you the process of construction. It tells you that, hey, do this before that, like that kind of, and it's, it just makes

you sound smarter to the contractors. That's probably the biggest thing. If you're new out there and you don't know how to talk to a contractor, then you should probably read that book and look at it. And if they tell you something, just pick it up as a reference. And so that way you can actually like sound like it. And the more you sound like you know what you're doing, the less you'll get screwed by contractors.

Yeah. There you go. All right. How about favorite business book? Non-real estate. That by hands down is four-hour work week, if you call that a business book. Sure. By Timothy Ferris, that entire, everything in that book, I'm trying, it's like my new Bible.

I'm just doing everything I can to work towards everything it says to do. And it's definitely, the other book, too, would be the one thing. Yep. And that book totally changed my business a couple years ago as well. Awesome. Yeah, those are two of my favorite business books as well. Both good books. We need to get Tim Ferriss on the book.

For those listeners, it took us a while. It took me a while to read the first. And the one thing, we're actually friends now with Jay, who's been on our show, Jay Papazon. So, yeah, great, great, great, great books. Definitely recommend everybody. Check it out. Hobbies. What do we do for fun?

Oh, yeah. That's why I'm reading the four-hour work week so I can do that. I absolutely love to scuba dive. And I also, and I do that here in the Puget Sound, wear a dry suit. It's very cold. You don't know how cold it is. It's about between 40 and 50 degrees, depending on what time of year. You're insane.

Yeah, I love it. When we're in the Galapagos, we had close to about 50 Galapagos sharks all in a school, swim right by us as we were scuba diving. It was awesome. The other thing, I actually ski patrol during the winter. I love to snowboard. I like emergency medicine stuff. A lot of things outdoors, but it's really more scuba. snowboard, skydive, that kind of thing.

So it's a lot of fun. I actually have a question on your dry suit situation there. So you're going in 40-degree water. I'm assuming you're not like going in your skivis, right? I mean, are you like wearing a coat in there? Because you're still like, the temperature transfer still got to be there. Yes, absolutely. Oh, yeah, you definitely freeze your ass off.

So you wear, there is a undergarmament that you wear like it's a full-body fleece or down that you wear. It's actually specific for dry suits because it's. It traps air so you stay warm. And then the air in your dry suit that you fill up actually heats up with your body temperature and that gets trapped in your fleece. So if you don't have anything on underneath there, yeah, you'd definitely feel the cool. You'd be just as cold. It just wouldn't be wet.

Right, right. Got it. Cool. Cool. All right. My last question of the day, Taral, what do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from those who give up, fail, or never even get started? So I thought about that one because I've heard enough of your podcast to know about that one. I can talk for hours about this type of stuff.

But the one that I think is more unique that I was just really trying to figure out was I think a lot of guys, a lot of people don't self-analyze themselves enough to figure out what they're, what's holding them back from actually doing whatever it is they need to do in their real estate business. And a lot of people aren't honest with themselves. Like really figuring out what is that they want. What is it that's making them fail if something's not working? Maybe it's not their system. Maybe it's them. Right. So, and if people would consistently, even a monthly, yearly, whatever, daily basis, really look at themselves and their business and be direct with themselves saying, I'm not getting what I want because of X and taking personal responsibility for it, that everything's your fault, good and bad. And really owning up to that, I think it will change a lot of people's business life, especially in real estate. Because if you're marketing out there and you've sent, I've sent 10,000 letters and not getting a call, well, or I sent 10,000 letters and I haven't gotten a deal, but I get a lot of phone calls.

Well, maybe you suck on the phone, right? So there's, it's figure out that part. Or maybe your letter sucks and you're not willing to admit it, right? Who knows? But something you have to change. You have to look at yourself as much as possible and figure that out. And the better you become, better everything else becomes. Be introspective.

I love it. I love it. I love it. All right, man, before we let you go, where can people find out more about you? Where can they look you up, reach out and connect? So bigger pockets for sure. You know, just type in Tarle. I'll be the only one on there.

And then the... But recently, actually, I spent a lot of years in this business where we've never had a website. We've never had anything. Like, because we never really cared to have the public even know what I was doing or what we were doing. But recently, I got involved with this site. It's called... Hold on. I wrote it down.

Facebook, right? Yeah. I've heard of that. Never heard that one before. Everybody heard of that. So we have a Facebook site, and it's just Facebook. you know, dot com

forward slash fixated F-I-X-A-T-E that's our company. And so you can friend us on that. Also,

our website that we have as a company that you can see some more portfolio is www. www.

www. F-A-X-A-T-R-E. dot com. And you can look us up there. But if you want to actually get in touch with me,

then bigger pockets is going to be your best bet. Perfect. Well, Tarl, thanks so much for coming on the

show, man. We really do appreciate it. Lots of luck going forward with the business. And, hopefully you and I can both get out there and take some more vacations.

That would be fantastic. I'd like to go scuba diving with you. That'd be awesome. That'd be cool. I'll show you a new world. It'd be awesome. Yeah. Cool.

Thanks for having me. Thank you. Thank you. See around. Bye. All right, guys, that was Tarle Yarber. Again, a big thanks to Tarle for coming on the show. Man, that was awesome.

Yeah. There were so many good points that I would want to write down. I should have taken some notes while we were doing it. I'll have to listen to this again later. But, I mean, just like his idea of like networking, like how important networking is to him. And it is like every bigger pocket's local. That's where he gets his money. He gets his money.

He finds deals. He's, I mean, like networking is key to him. And, you know, he posts on the bigger pockets forums and he, you know, builds relationships that way as well. So, yeah, I mean, that, if that's one thing you guys can take away from this is get out there and network. I also love his story about like how afraid he was to like knock on doors. Oh, yeah. I've totally been there. Yeah.

That was awesome. And I think. most people are going to love the photo tip. I mean, the fact that that thing has saved him multiple times is just proof to how important something like that is. So, again, processes and systems, right? Totally convicted me on. I mean, I need to spend some time and work on my photo. Convicted you?

Convicted me to the heart of how crappy I do with that. So with that, yeah, no, good show. People, hopefully, you know, you can go like, let's do it again or connect with Tarle, BiggerPockets.com forward slash 180. Was it show 189? Show 189. Yes. And if you found it as enjoyable as I did to learn about Rosie vomiting in Brandon's mouth, please feel free to let Brandon know via Twitter at Brandon at BP.

And, you know, just clown him a little bit. That'd be fun. Send him some vomit pictures and things. That would be great. I can't wait to look at my Twitter feed. All right, guys. Well, listen, it's been fun. I am Josh Dorkin host of the Bigger Pockets podcast.

And until next time, we'll look forward to serving you on the Bigger Pockets site. We hope you keep listening to the podcast and please spread the word. I'm Josh Dorkin. Sign it off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio. Simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited

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