BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 217: How to Work Less and Earn More Using the 80/20 Rule with Perry Marshall

Episode Date: March 9, 2017

Every day, our lives are consumed by things that simply don’t amount to much. In fact, most of your successes will come from a very small percentage of your activities. That’s the basic concept of the 80/20 rule, and today’s guest is one of the world’s foremost experts on using the 80/20 rule in business! Today’s guest is Perry Marshall, author of 80/20 Sales and Marketing: The Definitive Guide to Working Less and Making MoreE, and on today’s fascinating show, Perry dives into how to use this principle to work less and achieve more. And don’t miss the fascinating discussion on how to make $10,000 an hour; if you’ve never heard this concept before, it’s about to blow your mind (and business) into the stratosphere! In This Episode We Cover: Perry’s background and how he got into marketing How he stumbled upon the 80/20 principle Why it’s alright to let go of tenants causing you issues The 80/20 inside the 80/20 How this affects investors with rental properties What we can learn from the “principle of the 2700 espresso machine“ The most important thing in direct mail marketing The 5 qualifiers you should know when selling What to consider about the concept of retargeting How to handle a bad response rate A tip to help you make $10,000 an hour Why you should say no to a lot more things How to differentiate the $10 an hour job from the $10,000 an hour job And SO much more! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums Upwork Books Mentioned in this Show 80/20 Sales and Marketing by Perry Marshall Ultimate Guide to Google AdWords by Perry Marshall Ultimate Guide to Facebook Advertising by Perry Marshall The 80/20 Principle by Richard Koch The Star Principle by Richard Koch The Book of Proverbs Tweetable Topics: “80/20 is everywhere.” (Tweet This!) “We can fix so many problems by doing so little.” (Tweet This!) “Half of what you are doing right now you shouldn’t be doing.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Perry Perry’s Personal Website Get his book 80/20 Curve Perry’s Twitter Profile Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 217. So if you own 100 properties, 20% of your income comes from 80 of them and 80% of your incomes comes from 20 of them. It's pretty much inevitable. It's like a law of physics. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing with, out all the hype. You're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on

everybody? This is Josh Dorkin, host of the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host, Mr. Brandon Turner. What's up, man? Hey, not a whole lot. You know, I lost a lot of weight in the last couple weeks. I can see, especially in your face. I did. So what are you going to make fun of now? Look at this clean, I have nothing to make fun of. I mean, look rugged and semi, semi clean cut. Yeah, you know, for those who don't quite as dirty as you were. Less homeless. That you removed all the homelessness from your face.

I did, I did. So I lost a good 20 pounds worth of facial hair over the last couple of days. Yeah, yeah. Welcome back. Thank you. You traveled the world by boats. On a boat. I did.

It was pretty awesome. So I'm glad to be home back in the saddle doing what I love doing. What was your favorite place on your little cruise? Oh, good question. I don't know. So my favorite place is actually before going on the cruise ship. I love Miami Beach, like South Beach. I just love that area.

I could live there. Yeah. I'm going to say probably Grand Turk. I just like that beach a lot in that island. Nice. Yeah. Never been, but one of these days. What about me?

You've been on Kirby and Cruise, too. What did you like best? I'm, you know, being on the Caribbean cruise where a phone doesn't work. That's pretty amazing. No internet access for a week. That was nice. Yeah. You know what's cool is I think I said this a couple weeks ago.

Maybe not. Maybe it was on a webinar. But I came home from this cruise and I was on two weeks. A week of that or 10 days was no cell phone, no internet, nothing, right? I get home and my checking account has a whole lot more money than when I left because rent came in and the systems that we have in place. So that's the beautiful thing about real estate. I think it like perfectly illustrates it is.

I mean, yes, it takes work. You have to maintain it, but it wasn't reliant on me, you know, working a number of hours. Like, that's the beauty of passive income. Well, and we talk about that in today's show, right? We do. We do. You know, you've got systems built so that you're doing 20% of the work now for 80% of the value and you've got other folks in there who are doing the rest of it.

And that's why today's show, I think, is so important. Yeah. Our guest today is not a real estate investor. He's a marketer and an author. And, you know, we cover just a really important topic as it pertains. to building and scaling a business, any kind of business really. But for those of you guys listening, who are active real estate investors, there's so much you can take away from the show and so many little things that if you sit and really think about what we get into, you can really slim down

all the stuff that you're doing and use that to add value to what your business is. That's true. Yeah, we talk about things like direct law marketing. We talk about some good practices for that, some of the ways to why testing matters so much. And the conversation towards the end of the interview where we talk about how to make $10,000 an hour. If you've never heard this concept, we'll blow your mind. So make sure you guys stay tuned for that. Yeah, for sure. Well, before we get into that, you guys, this is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 217. You can check out the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 217. If you have not yet already left us a rating review on iTunes, Stitch or SoundCloud, however you're listening, please do that. That really does help us.

And please do spread the word about the podcast. We do appreciate that. Before we go on, why don't we get to today's quick tip? All right, today's quick tip is something that we've talked about before, but I want to just reiterate it. First of all, your bigger pockets profile. Go take a look at it. What does it show? Does it show you as a professional person,

like you're somebody that people want to do business with? Or does it, you know, there's a picture of you with your shirt off doing like, you know, the peace sign or something stupid, right? Not just a picture. Is there a video? If you're a pro member, you can upload a video to your profile, which is awesome. If you, you know, do you have what your goals are, what people can help you with, what you're looking,

for what you have to offer. You know, really go fill that thing out in full because people do look at your profile. That's the best way to network. It's the best way to find possible partners, deals, opportunities, fill out the profile. And yeah, that's great. Awesome. All right. Most investors spend more time chasing deals than reviewing their insurance.

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Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Here's the thing about traveling. If you buy food at the airport, a burrito, salad, bag of peanuts, you start wondering if you should have opened a savings account for snacks. So wouldn't it be great if you could actually earn money while you're traveling?

Well, you can. Airbnb has something called the co-host network. While you're away, you can hire a vetted local co-host with hosting experience to help take care of things, communicating with guests, preparing your space, managing reservations, everything runs smoothly while you're off making memories. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. Today's guest is Perry Marshall, author of 80-20 sales and marketing, how to work less and earn more, and the title couldn't be more apropos. Let's bring him in. All right, Perry, welcome. to the show, man. It's good to have you here. It's great to be in bigger pockets. Thank you for having me

today. It's great. Awesome. Yeah. Well, so as, yeah, as we mentioned a little bit, probably doing the intro, and I'll say it here live to you, like 80-20 sales of marketing that book. When I read that, actually, I got on an audible and I listened to it. And it's one of the very few books in my life I've ever listened to over and over and over. I think I listened to it like 10 times. Because every time I was like, if I could just master this, this, everything else in my life would be better. It's almost like I took the 80-20 rule too in terms of a book, right? And 80 times on the podcast, before the podcast, he'd be like, Josh, got to write this book. This book's amazing. Oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God. And it's fantastic. The concepts are great. So we're pumped.

We are. So why don't we, for those who have not read the book, and even if you have, why don't we just start at the very beginning? I mean, who are you? Where'd you come from? How'd you get into the business world? And then we'll go into what 80-20 means. So I'm Perry Marshall, and I live in Chicago. I got a family of six, four regular kids to adopt. kids, wife, car, mortgage, all that stuff. 20 years ago, I was an engineer, and I got laid off, and my wife was three months pregnant, and I had two choices either move away from Chicago and find an engineering job somewhere else or go into sales.

So I went into sales, and I ate bologna sandwiches and ramen soup for a couple years. It was pretty thin, okay? Or baked potatoes and salsa, that's another cheap. food that you can get. That is. And my life finally started to turn around when I discovered direct marketing, which back then it was like the redheaded stepchild. Now it's everywhere. Now it's websites and you know, everybody measures things and everybody tests things. But that was pretty new back then. And it really propelled me forward and fast forward a few years. I worked at a company. The company got sold. I got some stock options. And basically I said, wow.

What if I really got good at this? And so I just completely immersed myself in mastering marketing. Like, I'm going to get really, really, really good at this. Well, about six months after I hung out my shingle, Google AdWords came out. And I learned about it pretty early. And I had enough background to realize, hey, wait a minute, this is like caveman discovers fire. This is friggin amazing. How come nobody's talking about this?

how come they're not shutting it from the rooftops, but the world was just not there yet. Well, to make a long story short, I ended up writing the world's best-selling book on Internet advertising, which is Ultimate Guide to Google AdWords, and also I'm known for another book called Ultimate Guide to Facebook Advertising.

And so lots of people in the marketing space knew who I am, like all the pay-per-click kind of guys, they know who I am, and people in Google AdWords, and to lesser extent, Facebook. Well, the thing was about a year after I discovered AdWords, I picked up Richard Kosh's book, The 80-20 Principle. And I read this book.

And I got to page 14, and he made this offhand remark that he never really expanded on later, but it set my mind on fire. He kind of sent me tumbling down a rabbit trail. And here's what it was. It was that 80-20, the 80-20 principle. which says that 20% of what you do gets you 80% of your results, and 80% of what you do only gives you 20%. What I realized was this was deeply connected to something that people in science called chaos theory.

And chaos theory is actually this very well-developed science, and it's like how windshield cracks, like a crack spreads through your windshield, or how avalanches work or how weather works. How the Bigger Pockets podcast works. Chaos. How the branching patterns of trees and what I suddenly realized was, wait a second. There's an 80-20 inside every 80-20. There's another one and there's another one and there's another one.

Now, Richard didn't really talk about that, but I realized that this was true. And also, you know, Richard's book, it totally changed my life because I had thought that 80-20 was just this little business rule of thumb. that happens to be true for some strange reason. Like, I remember when I first heard about it, maybe five years before, and I printed out a sales report, and I'm like, I'll be darned. It's true.

But then I stopped there. I didn't go any further. It was just like, oh, yeah, whatever. But what I realized, no, this is a master formula of cause and effect. It affects everything. And so not only is it, it's like a master formula that it's like, MC Escher like there's a pattern inside a pattern inside a pattern. It actually gets kind of

trippy. And what I did was I realized that, hey, wait a minute. So I was trying to figure out Google AdWords, right? It was this weird new beast and it didn't really make a lot of sense to a lot of people. A lot of people spend a lot of money. I realized that everything in Google AdWords that you did that worked, works because of 8020. In fact, 8020 was the master formula. You've got all these college. You got impressions and clicks and cost per click and all these different ad groups. All of it was 8020. And the secret was finding the 8020 levers. So in a Google AdWords account, you could spend weeks optimizing stuff that basically would amount to polishing turds. Or you could spend a few minutes every day doing, okay, do this, do this, do this. Okay, and guess what? Right there,

at minute 20, you just passed the point of diminishing returns. So stop. and go do something else and come back tomorrow. And it totally revolutionized my life. Well, about five years ago, the AdWord book is out, the 8020 book is out. I'm a fairly famous marketing consultant. I'm speaking all over the world. I said, you know what? You know, being sort of like being the spokesman for Google AdWords is getting less and

less fun because Google, you know why they say don't be evil? Why? Because they're evil. Oh, come on. Come on. And I said, you know what? I wonder, I don't know if this will work or not, but I wonder if I could create a whole identity around 80-20,

because this is really the secret sauce. Like, if I could teach the world 80-20, it would be like teaching a man to fish instead of giving them a fish. Hey, Harry, really quick before you go on, because you're going to keep going, and I got a whirl-y-ad, man, you're like a whirlwind. I love this really quickly. For people who don't know, Google AdWords,

those are the ads on the side and top of your Google search results for those folks that are unaware of Facebook ads. Facebook has their own little ads within there as well. Can you dive in a little bit more on the 80-20 within the 80-20? I think it's fascinating. And I do think most people get the basic premise of 80-20% results in 80% of the results. Can you give us like a concrete example of that kind of inner chaos? Yes. Okay. So if you, um, own 100 properties, 20% of your income comes from 80 of them, and 80% of your incomes comes from 20 of them. It's pretty much inevitable. It's like a law of physics. If you hire 100 salespeople, 20 of them will make 80% of the sales and the other 80 will make 20% of sales, which means the 20 good

salespeople are 16 times better at selling than the other 80. It's not 4x. It's 16. It's 16. Okay. So like winners really win big and losers really lose big and there's a lot more losers than winners. And it's it's it's kind of binary. Okay. Well, and this is true just everything I said, it's true everywhere. It's true of the sap running through the tree outside in your front yard it's the traffic on the roads in your town 20% of the traffic runs on 80% of the roads 80% of the traffic runs on 20% of the roads 80% of the traffic in your house and the dirt on your carpets is on you know 20% of the carpets and it goes on and on and here's the 8020 inside the 80 20 so I've got I've got 100 apartment buildings and 80% of my income comes from 20% of them 80% of 80% of

the 80% comes from 20% of the 20%, which means 4% make you 64%. But then it's true again, 80 of the 80 of the 80 comes from 20 or the 20 of the 20. Well, if you do the math, it's actually 50% of your results comes from 1% of what you do or 1% of what you own. Wow. You can also flip it upside down and you can go, well, instead of look, look, look, at profits, let's look at losses, or less look at product returns, or let's look at product defects, or let's look at people who are late on their rent, or people who default on loans. It's like whether you're looking at the good end of stuff or the bad end of stuff, 80-20 is true.

And so there end up being there's huge levers in these tiny little areas where, wow, we can fix so many problems by doing so little. So a couple quick examples in my life that I've seen to this. First of all, like the 80-20 with the property, totally true. Right. I've read that. And then I started looking at my properties and I realized, yeah, very, like I have 50 some units right now. And the vast majority of my income comes from the same 10 units. Like I've got a fiveplex and I've got, I'd say the three-plex and another three-plex. Like those properties give me them more income than all the other ones combined. And I realized, I mean, one, it's because I was smarter when I bought those and the

early ones I didn't know what I was doing. But they just, they happened to work better. in my area. So what I've been doing since figuring that out is I've only been buying those type of properties that I recognized were doing really, really well. And I stopped buying the ones that weren't. For example, single family houses and, you know, junky little $30,000 single family houses, they weren't giving me an income, though. They were taking 80% of my time, though, but they weren't giving me the 80% income, right? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for accepting and realizing this. Yeah. So I stopped buying in Detroit. But that was a huge one. Another way, I look at my tenants, And I realized 80% or 20% of my tenants gave me 80% of my headache.

And it was, I mean, even more severe, I'd say it was like 1% of my, right, 1% of my tenants were giving me, you know, 50 or 75% of my headaches. And so what we started doing was, we got in the practice of firing tenants. We would just like, like not renew their lease or if they were on a month a month, we'd just be like, all right, well, sorry, it's, you know, it's been a good run. See you later. And we've been doing that consistently. And it freed up so much mental bandwidth in our life.

Like, I don't need them. Like, absolutely. and see, it's true of tenants. And I get lots of these podcast interviews with marketers and, you know, retailers and entrepreneurs. And I say, it's never occurred to most people that you can fire customers and you can fire clients. Like, there's no rule that if you're a consultant, there's no rule that says you have to keep

working with this client or like a bunch of CPAs. I gave a talk to a bunch of CPAs. And I said, how many of you, you know, you've got these clients and their tax returns are just awful, right? And the people aren't even nice to you. I said, I said, I give you all permission. You paid all this money to come to this seminar and you got an airplane. I, Perry Marshall, officially give you permission to fire. I said, how many of you know who it is that you need to fire? And like, all these hands, kind of, they're like, uh, yeah. Yes, it's okay. And like, you don't have to be mean about it. You can be really nice. Maybe you can even help hand them off to somebody else,

but like good rents. Yeah, we lose money on these. We have a rule here with our sponsorships. It's the same thing. I mean, back in the day, we had to fire a few advertisers for the same thing. It's like, these guys are drama. They're creating problems. There's always issues, and you're spending the vast majority of your time on one or two people.

Get rid of them. Drama free. All right. You know, okay, so you're giving up some money. Well, you know, fill it with somebody else who's going to give you the money without the headache. Same thing for a landlord. Get rid of the.

the drama tenants, get the tenants without drama. I mean, people, you know, services are replaceable. And so it's worked very well for us. And I think it's a fantastic theory that anybody and everybody listening should figure out how does this apply to my business, to my real estate life, to my personal life. It's really important. It applies everywhere. And one of the things that I talk about in 80, 20 sales and marketing is that people are

very, very conditioned to think that they're just supposed to be business. all the time. And there are problem customers and problem clients and problem properties and problem projects. They chew up our time and they keep us busy and they make us feel productive. Let's take this a little deeper. I've got this friend named Len Bertane. He's got this thing called the 2120 rule. Listen very closely because this is really clever and it's really true. 20% of what you sell or 20% of your properties. So in real estate, 20% of your properties make 120% of your profit and then the properties on the other end of this spectrum suck up 20% of your profit and bring it 120 down to 100.

Interesting. This is true of product lines in a company too. Most companies are losing money on 20% of everything they sell and they don't know it. Most of your subscribers are losing 20% of their profits on property. that actually lose money, but they don't know they are losing money. It's buried in the data somewhere. It's in the noise. They haven't figured it out.

But if you can figure it out, like, guess what? If you sold that building at a loss, even if you lost $10,000, you would actually make more money. But again, they don't know it. Yeah. It's very easy to lose those numbers. I mean, there's been, yeah, multiple times, whether it's on a flip, on a rental, whatever, where years could go by and I'm losing money.

But you can kind of hide it, especially with things like tax benefits and all those other things. And hey, maybe it'll appreciate and all this stuff. But yeah, I totally say that in my business as well. So what do you say to somebody who finds that, right? Hey, okay. I mean, you know, if this is a general rule of the universe, so to speak, you know, how can we identify these losers and get rid of them? I mean, obviously that's kind of, you know, just having a fact that, oh, there's a rule is meaningless. It's actually taking action once you've identified it, right?

So it starts with knowing that it's almost dead certainty that it's true. Like, okay, once in a while there might be an exception, but pretty much you can count on. I give you several ways to use this. So if I say, if you've never done a really thorough vetting of all these numbers, I pretty much guarantee you that 20% of what you're doing is losing you money. And you go, no, I don't really think so. It's like, no, go back and check again because I guarantee you it's true. Okay.

Go find it. Now, this is hugely liberating if you realize, like, okay, let's say that for whatever reason, bad economy or bad circumstances or whatever, you're having a bad year and you're losing money. One of the most comforting things that you could possibly know is that you could make probably 70% as much money as you're making with 30% as much work. Or that if you just know, if you got rid of the right 20% of customers or the right 20% of tenants or the right 20% of properties, you would go from in the red to in the black overnight. And your amount of work would go down. the number of checks and bills coming in and out of your checking account would go down, right?

But you just don't know this. Here's a different version. I call it the principal of a $2,700 espresso machine. And this definitely applies to real estate, okay? And here's what it is. If you have 1,000 people every week or every day, you know, going through Starbucks. And let's say you got a Starbucks store. and every day a thousand people buy at least a $3 coffee.

Okay? Well, 8020 tells you that 20% of those would spend four times as much money and 20% of those would spend four times as much money and 20% of those would spend four times as as much money, which means there's actually a fixed number of people that for every thousand people that spend $2.70 on a cup of coffee. there's like one person or 10 people that would buy a $2,700 espresso machine. Actually, it's about one person. Okay?

Pretty much guarantee that every thousand people that buy a cup of coffee, one will buy a $2,700 espresso machine. Why? Because the laws of the universe, the laws of cause and effect say that there is bound to be people with that much money that's burning a hole in their pocket, and they want to scratch the coffee itch. So they will buy their $5.60. Latte and their Miles Davis CD and whatever else they get there.

And they will take home a $2,700 espresso machine. And they'll put it on the counter and then they'll come back tomorrow and they'll buy another latte. Even though they have an espresso machine at home, it's gleaming. They may never use it. They may use it every day. They may give it to their mother. law who uses it every day or doesn't use it. But like the math, it's, it's pretty much guaranteed. Well, it's also, it's also true in real estate. So like in the, in the book, I show how you could take a

stadium. You could say, I've got 63,000 seats in the stadium and a game sells for like a hundred bucks a seat. You can figure out exactly how many people will buy $250,000 skyboxes in the same stadium in 80-20 will tell you pretty much dead on how many there are. It's spooky. It is absolutely spooky. But then you suddenly realize, wow, okay, so I've got this. So I went to a hotel. I spoke to this hotel group. And of course, you know, those guys are selling real estate. They're just selling it one night at a time. And I told them, well, you know, for every $89 room that you sell, you know, there's somebody that'll buy the $1,200 a night suite. And I said, you know what you guys should do?

I said, I bet none of you had done this. If you had an entire floor where every room had like five video screens, all the families with kids that play Minecraft, they would take that room and they would hook all their iPads and their computers up to the screens and their kids would like do gaming. And you could charge like $300 a night for a special gaming room. And I guarantee you that money is there. like for the mass says for every certain number of $89 hotel rooms there is a person who had spent 300 yeah so who are they and what do they want that's great that's a lot of sense well okay i'm

going to shift gears a little bit here because we like we'll spend four hours talking on the stuff so i'm going to go specifically to direct mail marketing as a direct marketer uh you've probably been involved somewhat with males so this is something that a lot of real estate okay good so you get you get where we're coming from a lot of real estate investment We'll use that. Now, the interesting part about real estate is that we are not, a lot of people listen to the show right now might be thinking, well, I'm not selling anything. I'm buying. I'm a buyer. I'm a, but at the end of the day, like, we are sending out letters trying to sell ourselves or our service to them. Like, we are salespeople, which is why I wanted to have you on the show and why me and Josh wanted to have you here. Because we are sellers. I mean, we're salespeople. So I wanted you to. Brandon takes all the credit. I do. I added you. Come on. So. Let's talk about direct-mo marketing. What works? I mean, what are some general best practices?

What have you seen work well? What do you people know before they get into that? So the most important thing is the list. Okay? The list is all important in marketing. And this actually brings me to my friend John Paul Madoche came up with this called the five power disqualifiers. There are five things that are always true every time anybody sells something

and you want these five things to be true of the people on a list if you're going to, if you're going to mail. So here's what they are. Number one, they have the money, okay? Or they have the property or they have the property that's worth the money, right? Okay. Number two, they have a bleeding neck. Now, that comes from the emergency room.

If you go to the emergency room and your arm is broken, you think you're having this massive, massive crisis and the lady's like, okay, so take a magazine, a clipboard and sit down over there, right? And you sit there for two hours with a broken arm, right? But if you, if you walk into the emergency room and blood is squirting out of your aorta, they won't make you fill out the clipboard, right? Because their definition of emergency is different than yours, right? Well, well, people spend money or sell property or whatever because they have a bleeding neck. I mean, this is, this is a huge thing. Whether you're buying businesses or buying properties or whatever, you have to realize

that people sell properties and businesses and cars or even get out of marriages or whatever for very emotional reasons that often don't have anything to do with the immediate thing, right? There was a divorce or there was a massive change in the family or the kids got to go to college or they have this sudden need for some money or something, or they got a new job and they're moving to Denver to go hang out with Josh or whatever. And like they got to get rid of this thing, right? So that's bleeding neck. The third one is they buy into your unique selling proposition,

which as a buyer, you know, it's like one person wants to tear the thing down and the other person wants to renovate it and they would never ever want it torn down. so they resonate with your renovate story, right? That's your unique selling proposition. Okay, they have the ability to say yes. Tons of people, salespeople, we go. We try to do deals with people that can say no, but they can't say yes. We're talking to the spouse, but we're not talking to the real decision maker.

And then the last one is it fits their overall plans. Okay, some other direct mail things. You can hire companies that will hand address mail for you. You can send out a thousand hand address. letters and a hand-dressed letter with an actual stamp on is much more likely to get opened. Another one is a personal like, hi, my name is Brandon. Hi, my name is Josh. Hi, my name is Perry.

And like, let me, you know, tell you a little bit about myself. The headline, of course, is extremely important. And then you start getting into things like, well, do I make them? what's the call to action? Do I want them to call? Do I want them to go to a website? Well, lately, what it seems to work, and we didn't premeditate this and, you know, I didn't discuss this with you, but I know a lot of real estate people, what works is custom URLs, personalized URLs, where you are then retargeting the person on using Facebook or Google or other platforms where they visited your site, they want to see what you're doing, but now your ads kind of follow them around,

so you have more than one shot at them. It's actually very easy to do this on Facebook. So there's a few things for direct mail, and I love direct mail. Like direct mail is not going away. That guy in a blue suit that comes to your house and delivers letters, he's going to keep doing that, like until the end of time probably. It's super useful. That's cool. And I... Really valuable. It is. Yeah. I never thought about the retargeting thing.

I mean, retargeting is very popular with web business. I mean, bigger pockets. We do some retargeting where if you, you might come to our website, and then later we might hit on Facebook, like, hey, you might like this webinar. You might like this book, right? It's very common. But in real estate, I never thought about that,

sending people to my house buying website. And if they go there, put them on a list and retarget them forever, right? Because then every time they're on Facebook, or every few times on Facebook, they happen to see this little ad for, you know, Brandon's house buying service. eventually when they have that neck, when that neck splits open and it's bleeding, they're going to call me because they've been seeing me for the last three months on Facebook.

Typical. You're looking for the bloody neck people. That's all I'm looking for. No, it's great. They're the ones with the need, right? And you can do this, you can do this on Facebook and you can do it on Google and you can do it on YouTube all at the same time. And so it's like a 360. And look, if you do this, you will be ahead of 99% of the real. And you will be ahead of 99% of estate people because they haven't caught up with the internet marketers. And by the way, this isn't very hard to do. You put a little piece of code on your website and you have like five YouTube videos. They could be shot on your cell phone. Okay. But, you know, and, you know, if you got some tips or you want to just have a conversation with buyers, you get several different kinds of conversations,

you put those up there. You can run little banner ads and you can adjust like, are you you bombarding them or you're just kind of showing up every couple days. You get to decide all that. You get to decide how long it is. But retargeting lists are very powerful. And if you've been, you know, putting stuff out there for months and months and months, you can accumulate a sizable retargeting list. And then all of a sudden something new comes up and you can push that out to a bunch of people. And it shows up in their Facebook feed literally 10 minutes from now. It's very powerful. That's awesome. That's great. So in terms of the tech, testing on the mail. How important is that? And if somebody isn't getting a great response,

what would you recommend they do? Testing is hugely important. So 8020 says, so in my 8020 sales and marketing book, or you can go to 8020 curve.com, which is one of my websites, you'll see that if you put 8020 on a curve, it looks like, it looks like this exponential graph. And well happen, if you test 10 different letters, two of them

will get 60 to 80% of the response. So the more things that you test, the more likely you will get an outlier that's significantly better than all of the others. And a huge mistake that people

make is they don't test enough and they don't try enough different kinds of things. So we did this with not a real estate example, but when we did a, we launched the book on rental property investing that I wrote, we had a dozen titles that we came up with. And we went on Facebook and kind of did the Tim Ferriss method of, I did Facebook ads for different book titles. Some of those book titles were getting, you know, 0.5% click rate. And one of them got like a 3.5% click rate. So of course, the one that got the high click rate was called the book on rental property investing. That's why we chose that title. That's seven X. Yeah. Yeah. It was huge.

Yes. Right. So had. we not done that testing, we may have just gone with the initial, like, hey, I just, my gut reactions go with this title and it would have been seven times less effective. And the same thing is true, I suppose, with, I mean, with any of that stuff, like the direct mail, you might have a terrible piece of mail because you went with your gut. You guys, I am a, I have 20 years of professional marketing experience. And my guess is like, sometimes at marketing seminars will have these, well, guess which one won, did A win or did B one? You know what my average score is?

What's that? Terrible. 50%. Like, I am no better than guessing. And I'm like, like, you do not know what those people out there will actually respond to. Those other humans in the world are weird. This is too. That's awesome.

Very cool. Yeah. Again, I think, you know, for direct mail marketing, just kind of to wrap up that conversation, like, I think the most, I mean, the most important thing you do is just start. If you're trying to get into it, just start. worry about, you know, like spend the next 10 years of life testing. Get out there and start it. Get it going. Then you at least get a baseline. Would you agree with that? And then you can start making little tweaks at that point. That's right. And you should test wildly different ideas and then get a few

really good ones and then refine them. You don't start by refining. You start by just scattershotting a whole bunch of different things. You know, one uses fear and the other one uses desire and the one has beautiful pictures and the other one has ugly pictures and you just go kind of crazy with that. Yeah. And then you narrowed down. Yeah. That's great. If you own a short-term rental, here's something worth knowing.

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if not any book I've read in the past few years, it is this one concept. I mean, and I can explain why after you explain, but what does that mean to earn $10,000 an hour? How can people do that? What does that mean? Okay, so 8020 is driven by power law. And it says that everything is exponential. It's not addition. It's multiplication.

And so there's the value of your time is not $10, $20, $30, $40 an hour. It's $10,000, $10,000. And there's a thousand times more $10 an hour silly stuff than there is $1,000 an hour stuff. And so, you know, things like running errands and stuff. like that, that's $10 an hour work. Okay. Then there's $100 an hour work, which is, you know, like working with an important potential client or something like that, you know, $1,000 an hour work could be like picking the right property and researching it properly and eliminating the bad stuff and that's easily

$1,000 an hour stuff. And then there's, there's $10,000 an hour like a negotiation that's easily $10,000 an hour work. In fact, it could be $100,000 in five seconds, okay? But you have to realize that most work is very low value. And then there's a few bits and pieces throughout your day, your week, your month, that are hugely valuable. So like, I'll bet you guys, if you guys went back and you look at last year, I bet if we sat together, I could probably prove to you that you made half of your money

last year in three days. Wow. And you made the other... If you add up your hours throughout the week, add it up the three days you're saying? And I'm, yeah, yeah. And like, yeah, maybe not three of the same days, but I'm just saying that if you looked at what you really got done last year, half of what you actually accomplished last year, you accomplished literally in 72 hours of time.

Okay. And it was like you talked about that that certain property you have that makes a whole lot more money. Well, it was like whatever, like whatever time you did getting that property, that that time was worth 10, 20, 50 times more than all this other stuff that you did. Right. What you recommend is using assistance and things like that. You know, since, since Brandon brought you to my world, to me, you know, I began to see it.

And I began to see the time that I spent on bigger pockets on the business. And, you know, I was, well, this was even before Brandon, but, you know, I realized everything I was doing was in the business. And I wasn't doing enough on the business. And so it's, you know, this applies to real estate investors. This applies to business owners. This applies to everybody. I see it constantly.

Once I saw it, I woke up and I was like, oh my God. The average person running a business or building a portfolio, whatever it is, I mean, you're just so in the details. Doing all the mundane every day-to-day tasks, the goal is to find a way then to offshoot those tasks to other people so you can focus and find that 72 hours and find those tasks that are going to be the most valuable. Now, obviously, there's no easy way to say, hey, well, if I look a year ahead, I'm going to know the 72 hours worth of stuff that I need to do that's going to produce it. I mean, that's impossible. But by looking overall and breaking down what it is that you do on a regular basis. So say you're a real estate investor. Well, you're running around doing errands.

You're doing this. You're looking at properties. You know, just in the past couple months, Brandon, you know, Brandon now has three full-time employees on his real estate business. because he's decided I don't want to buy the single family houses. I don't want to bang my hammer against the windows anymore. I want to start offloading more and more of the low value tasks. And so that's what we encourage people to do and think about. Now, obviously not everybody's going to be able to do that at first.

But what would you recommend kind of that first task for people who are thinking about it who may not have a ton of money who are saying, you know what, I should focus. This makes a lot of sense. I should focus on the important stuff. How do they go back doing that? Well, it starts with realizing that you have to say no to a lot more things than you currently say no to. We're all conditioned and trained by everything to say, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I can do this. I can do that.

And like half of what you're doing right now, you shouldn't be doing. Why are you doing this, right? And like you make your to-do list at the beginning of the day, okay, how much? How much can I cross off? And then if you have a little bit of money, and now remember, if you hire an assistant, you don't have to pay them for two weeks, okay? And you might only hire them for like five hours a week,

like five hours a week, $10 an hour, two weeks, that's $100. Okay, so if you can figure out how two weeks from now, I have to come up with $100, but this is going to give me the ability to push an hour a day of stuff on to somebody else. Who wants the job? There's always people that want a $10 an hour job. Right?

Then you got two weeks to clear some stuff off your plate, move from $10 an hour stuff, just to $100 an hour stuff. Like real actual $100 an hour. There's a lot of that laying around, not to mention the $1,000 and the $10,000, but you'll actually be surprised. There's surprisingly a lot of $1,000 an hour work that it gets pushed off, it gets procrastinated.

Most of us do $10 an hour work to procrastinate the $1,000 stuff. True. That's true. That's true. Yeah, so here's a tangible example. And when I say that this book changed my life in a lot of ways, I mean, here's one example of it. So last year, I hired an assistant. After reading this book, I was like, okay, I'm getting an assistant.

So I went and got an assistant and searched wide and far from this amazing lady who took over a lot of the stuff that I just wasn't, I mean, even like some of what she's doing, might be even $100 hour task. I mean, for example, she started printing all my direct mail letters and started sending them out and kind of be in charge of that side of things because I just wasn't doing a very good job of it. So another thing she was doing was answering phone calls, which I also don't like doing, it wasn't doing a good job up.

So one of these phone calls came in. Somebody called. They saw an ad on a website, and I think maybe we hit them with a letter as well. And they called and they talked to her about wanting to sell their house. She went and looked at the property. She toured it. She built a relationship. I showed up for one hour to look at the property, negotiate.

I negotiated right there, and I closed the deal. Then I brought in a partner who helped manage the entire process. I showed up maybe four times just to check things out, so maybe two hours of work, right? At the end of the day, I signed papers at the title company. I made $25,000 personally on that flip. I maybe had five hours into the entire thing. That was a $5,000 an hour job. I was able to do what I do best, and that's in the negotiation, run the numbers, and sign paperwork.

Like, it's like, and, and I mean, that's not to say like, I mean, every day's not like that. I'm still terrible at it. I struggle with it. But that's just one good tangible example of because I let go and let other people do their job, the $100 an hour or $5 or $10 an hour tasks, it enabled me to do more. And Josh, I know you have to tell them, but a billion stories at Bigger Pockets. I mean, bigger pockets up to how many employees now? Like, I don't know, a ton.

We're, I mean, 21 people in Denver alone. Yeah. And so, and every one of those are doing jobs that you used to do by yourself, which is crazy, which is why is Bigger Pockets blown up over the last few years? Because Josh Dorkin now can do his $100,000 an hour tasks if he wants to because that's what he does as CEO. And like, I just think it's a perfect example of that.

So, yeah. And so you, why am I on this podcast with you guys? I don't know. This is a $5 an hour task, Josh. That's what I get paid to do this podcast. No, not with Perry here. Okay. Seven.

Really, this is what every. investor and entrepreneur should aspire to do is get rid of their jobs. Get rid of, you should, you should, you should try as soon as possible to get rid of 80% of your job and just do the 20% that's really valuable. And guess what? You'll find out there's another 20% because there's a 20% inside every 20% and you just keep climbing that thing and you'd be really surprised at how much money you can actually make with not huge amounts of time. And to add on that, one thing that you mentioned in the book as well that had made a huge impact on me is you said.

And, you know, if you could free up 80% of your day, yes, you could fill the rest with work and more money, but more importantly, you could fill that up with time with your kids or with your family or vacation or what you love to do, right? You don't have to fill that time with. Yes. And for the workaholics out there who bristle when you say that, because they do. Okay. All right.

I want to, I went to really plant something important in your mind is that you cannot be your entrepreneurial best. You cannot do your best thinking. You cannot be as insightful as you need to be. You can't be as resourceful as you need to be. When your time is constantly crammed with all of this stuff. Yeah.

The $10 an hour stuff kills the $10,000 an hour stuff. Yes. You will get some of your best ideas when you're pushing your kid on the swing. Absolutely. Or riding your bike or swimming or whatever it is that you loved or going to a rock concert. Like there is a period in most entrepreneurs' lives where you got to do the 14 hours a day for like a year or two. This should not be your whole life. Yeah.

You should not be burning the candle at both ends for years and years. if you are, if you are, if you've been doing that, you're doing 80, 20 all wrong. I guarantee you. Yeah. And I did that. I was the guy guilty of that because I didn't know. I was so stuck that I couldn't pull out. And that happens to a lot of people. It happens to a lot of people. It's interesting. I started, speaking of 8020, I started taking my Wednesdays off. Yeah. So that's, that's, you know, 80, 20% of my week. I no longer come into the office anymore. And it's funny because everybody here is like, Josh, you know, they try to book me on Wednesdays. They try and schedule meetings.

And I'm like, no, I'm not going to do it. You can't take that time because that's the time I'm using for deep thinking. It's the time for outside networking. It's the bigger activities that I know that if I come into the office, no matter what, even if I have the day blocked off completely, I'm not going to be able to devote myself to those activities in the same way that if I just say, you know what, I'm not coming in. I'm still going to work, obviously, but I'm going to focus on those big picture things. It makes a huge difference, huge difference.

Yes, it does. It does. So, like, just kind of you really, you really have to train yourself to get rid of this. Oh, I got to be busy. I got to be doing something. I got to be an action. How about some space? okay how about like sit in front of the river on the park bench with your cup of coffee and with your dog or whatever in the morning and go okay so what am i really going to do today

not be on your cell phone not be on your computer not not be doing deals like that's the key right there by the way is is getting rid of those devices too i mean getting that stuff a way to to think you know go on walks just that's big yes yeah for sure awesome i went on a walk today i did twice Nice. One last thing I mentioned before we head on to the end of the show, just kind of a funny anecdote. But after reading your book, I don't know if I helped my marriage or made it kind of funny. But in terms of, and I'm sure you've probably heard this before, every time my wife now asked me, I stopped mowing the lawn at that point. I stopped doing the dishes for the most part. I stopped, right? So I tell my, every time I was like, hey, right. I did the same thing and it was your fault, by the way.

Yeah, my wife's like, hey, can you take the trash out? Hey, that's like a $10 an hour job. Like, right? And I, but on that note, I tell her the same thing. I'm like, you shouldn't be doing that either necessarily. Like, she's running our rental business. She's managing 50-some tenants. Like, her best effort is not spent doing our dishes. So my assistant who does also my lead acquisition stuff, she comes over several times a

week sometimes if we have a problem, like, hey, can you just do these dishes? Like, and I feel kind of stupid doing that. And I used to make fun of people for that all the time. Like, oh, the rich hoity tooty rich guy hiring something to do his lawn care. like it doesn't know work ethic, right? I had it all wrong. Like, because of those things, I mean, I quadrupled my income and work half as much last year because of these choices I specifically made in my life.

Well, the easiest thing to outsource is stuff like that, okay? If you're going to outsource Google AdWords or if you're going to outsource, you know, looking for really great properties, that's like a super high. dollar per hour high skill job okay pounding nails in the wall to hang a picture mowing a lawn shoveling snow doing dishes but the best four hundred dollars a month i spend is on the cleaning ladies who come on thursday and and make my wife happy yeah yeah the house the house is clean and my wife is happy right and somebody wants that job. Now, there is a fine line because, like, if you become a prima donna and you're not willing to, like, take out the trash, that's bad.

I am not advocating that. Of course. But you can easily take two hours off of tons of people's life by somebody does laundry, somebody cooks, somebody shops, somebody goes to the grocery store, somebody takes your car to the mechanic, somebody changes the furnace. filters. You can make a big long list of stuff like that and it's gone. Yep. Oh my goodness. I will say the, the, your 14 hour day. It's back, right? You got it. You got the time to do whatever it is you want to do. Yeah. And you need to read. You need to, you need to spend time with your kids. You need to educate yourself. You need to take a day off every week. People need to take a day off. You know, Sabbath's been around for 4,000 years, okay?

You know, it's a really good idea. Yeah, I got rid of most of my tasks. The one I kept is the mowing the lawn, not the mowing the lawn, but the shoveling, the snow. And I'm still torn on it. I like doing it because I don't like going to the gym. I hate going to the gym. I don't want to be around sweaty people and going to the gym.

This is like, you know, the once every two weeks that I can, you know, build up my muscles without throwing my kids around, that's shoveling snow. It's my workout. I love it. If you like it, that's fine. Because, you know, for most people, there's not that many things like that that they actually do like, right? And they're not good for you, right? Yep.

No, but get rid of all the junk. Exactly. And don't listen to Brandon, by the way. Do not tell your wife you're not going to do the dishes. That is $10,000 an hour work because if you say that, she's going to divorce you, take half, and it's going to cost you. This is your first. I will say the caveat there is I will always do them before I make her do them, right? I mean, she might just volunteer to do them, but like I'll do them before she does because, and here's why she's raising a baby.

I mean, we're both raising a baby girl, right? But she is the mom. Like she's there. So every minute she's doing dishes where my little girl is in the other room, my wife is an infinity or an infinite like dollar per hour, right? Like she's missing out on. Like if we miss out on her first steps, like what is that value per hour? And we were doing dishes, right?

Right. And you can buy yourself a lot of sanity. And for $50 a month, $100 a month, $200 a month, for these various kind of people, you can buy yourself a lot of space and a lot of sanity and your stress level goes down and you're able to think. And then now all of a sudden, oh, what is that 20% of my portfolio that's losing this money? Now you have time. to figure that out. Yep. Yeah. I love that.

And I love that. And one thing you just kind of, and this is, you mentioned the book, if, if only everybody that was in these sales or leadership positions did that, we fixed the unemployment problem overnight, right? Yes. Yes. There are people who need those jobs. Yes.

Literally, if, if I figured this out, if everybody who makes over $100,000 a year went and got themselves a personal assistant, you would get rid of like a third of the unemployment or something like that. That's awesome. the numbers one day. It's something, somewhere in that vicinity. It's, it's crazy. Yeah, I love it. Awesome. Love it. All right. Well, hey, let's move on to the last segment of the show. Now, normally we have a fire round here, which are questions taken direct from the bigger pockets for us, but because this is not a real estate focus show, we're going to just skip that move right on to the fire, to the, to the famous

four. Let's do this, Josh. You ready, Josh? Let's do it. All right, this is the famous four. All right. These are the questions from the famous four. We ask the same four questions every week to every single guest. And so we're going to throw them at you right now. The first question, though, may or may not relate to you. I don't know if you'll have a good answer to this one, but you know, never know. Do you have a favorite real estate book? And we'll alter a little bit, like a personal development book. Real estate book. Well, let me give you a couple different answers for that. Personal development book, I think the best one ever written is the book of Proverbs in the Bible. That That saved my bacon more times than anything.

I think one of the biggest insights that I ever had about real estate is real estate and Google ads and the most important real estate in a Google ad is the domain name. Okay. Agreed. And domain names are real estate. And the domain name that you choose affects the click through rate of your ads. hugely. And if you test different domain names, it's just like testing different headlines. You get a seven to one difference. So for me, it's the real estate of domain names. It is kind of my answer. Cool. All right. Next question. What is your favorite business book?

My favorite business book. Not yours. Yeah, no. It's probably the story. Star Principle by Richard Koch. And he also wrote the 80-20 book. But Richard grew his wealth as a private equity investor from $4 million to $400 million. Pretty good. In 25 years. Okay. So, I mean, he's worth close to half a billion dollars now.

And that is his formula for doing it. And it's fairly straightforward. In fact, Richard and I have a website, StarPrincipal.com, where you can take any business and you can score it. But that is a phenomenal book. It's the most underrated business book. Awesome. Cool.

I have to check it out. What about hobbies? What do you do for fun when you're not marketing and figuring out all this cool stuff? I build stereo equipment. In fact, I've got a set of speakers in here that I made. And I find that when I work on my little passion projects, that there's this funny way

that insights about the other stuff I'm working, like stuff works itself out when I'm doing what I love. And like I think if you don't have a hobby that you can really like just feel super awesome about, you need to resolve that somehow. That makes sense. I love it.

Cool. All right. Last question from me anyway. What do you believe, sets apart successful, I'll say real estate investors, entrepreneurs, whatever, from those who give up or they fail or they just never get started? I think it's, there's always a point in every entrepreneur's career where they figure out that they have to say no to something that's holding them back. They have to quit something even though they thought the persistence was the most

important thing in the world or they have to say goodbye to a relationship, even though relationships were the most important thing in the world, or they have to get rid of their baby, even though their baby, you know, their pet project or whatever. It's letting go of something that's keeping you tethered to how things used to be. That's deep. That's deep. That's deep. Yeah. I'm, I'm, in here and just pondering it right now. Wow. Okay, you're going to have me thinking about this one. All right. Before we let you go, Perry, where can people find out more about you? And I know you've got the website and the books and everything. So take a minute to plug away. So you can get 80, 20 sales in marketing on Amazon for about 16 bucks. Or you can actually get it for a penny plus shipping,

which will make it seven bucks in the United States. If you go to Perry Marshall. dot com slash 8020. And we actually, I literally almost like tape dollar bills to these books to send them out. And the reason is is because it gets people in my funnel. And if you do that, you'll get into my funnel. And you'll see how we do marketing. We do some very clever things. And I've had, like, I've got testimonials all over my website where marketers say,

I have learned so much about marketing by watching how you do emails and how you market to your own audience because you eat your own dog food. You'll see a spectacular example of 8020 sales in marketing if you buy 8020 sales and marketing for seven bucks. So you can go to perrymarshal.com slash 8020 and you can get that. Cool. Perfect. Awesome. Well, Perry, thank you so much for coming on the show. We really do appreciate it.

And folks, if you want to reach out to Perry, you can go check out his website. You're also on Twitter, right? Yeah. Yeah, I am. And it was a really pleasure to have you both on. And it really, it's delightful to me when somebody takes this book and they change their life. I mean, there's nothing an author likes more than when somebody gets it. Like, it's not about selling a book.

It's about what happened to brand. And that's what gets me out of bed in the morning. I love it. I love it. Well, thanks so much, Perry. We'll see you around. Good to see you. Thanks for having me on.

Take care. All right, guys, that was Perry Marshall. Big thanks again to Perry. You know, I know why you're so passionate about this guy. You know, I learned all about him through you and the principles and applied them to bigger pockets, applied them to my own life. And, you know, it was a pleasure getting to meet him. and talk to him and actually being able to share this with our audience because I think it's so important.

So many of our people are out there, you know, focused and wasting their time on those activities that really aren't bringing them the value that it should be. And so I'm just pumped. That was fantastic. Yeah. And I like that he said, you know, he didn't, he did imply like or say, you know, like, yeah, every entrepreneur might have to put in a year or two of that really hard work. You know, at the beginning, we all did, right? I think the question is like, if you're, if you're listening to the show right now and you're in that mood or you're in that mode, where you're just doing everything. You don't have to make changes overnight, but just pick one.

I mean, I'll just challenge you guys. I mean, right now, pick one thing that you're doing and find somebody else, is your lowest dollar per hour task that you don't like doing and get someone else to do it. I know for me,

one thing that made a big impact was hiring somebody just to answer phones because I hated talking to tenants. So I don't talk to them anymore. I hire somebody who answers them and then they go to me and then I go back to them

and then they call the tenant back. Like, I just do not want to talk to tenants. It doesn't cost me very much money, but it's something that alleviated hours of week of time so I could focus on things. that made more money. So pick one thing in your business this week and find a way to outsource it. Yeah. And a quick tip on that would be using virtual assistance. You can use the site like Upwork, which is a fantastic marketplace of people looking for tasks to do. And so, you know, if it's answering

phone, can you go in Upwork and look for somebody who does phone answering? There's people who do that. There's people who do pretty much anything you could think of for money, frighteningly enough with some of those things. But go check out Upwork. I've been using that site for years and years and years. And it's a remarkable way to start offloading a lot of the little things that you don't necessarily want to be doing or may not even be good at doing. Yep. So check it out.

Cool. Well, it's good to be back. Good to have you back. And I'm going to be seeing you this week, huh? Yeah, I'm going to come hang out with you. In fact, yeah, we're going to have some good conversations about some secret projects you and I are working on. So, fancy, fancy.

I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. Yeah. Cool, guys. Well, thank you so much for listening. Brandon, good times. And thank you for getting Perry. That was great.

And we'll look forward to seeing you next week. All right. Take us out of here. All right. Don't mind if I do. For BiggerPockets.com, this is Josh Dorkin and Brandon Turner. Signing off.

Signing off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio. Simplifying Real Estate for Investors Large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. All right, for those of you who weren't paying attention last week here on the Bigger Pockets podcast,

we decided to introduce a little, just as a kind of a fun little ploy for a couple little episodes here, this little Easter egg here where we're going to call it the Random Five. Do you like that, Josh? Random Five. Random Five. All right. So we're going to ask Perry Five. quick questions that are completely random.

See what he's got to say about it. So number one, if you could have T with one fictional character, who would it be? One fictional character, yeah. Character, Gandalf. Oh, good choice. Oh, yeah. Okay, okay. What do you value most, free time, recognition, or money?

I value my time, definitely. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And I like space, you know. I need space. Excellent. All right. What is one thing you're deeply proud of, but you would never put on a resume? Never put on a resume. Like your skating trip? I'm proud that my wife and I fought our way through some really nasty marriage stuff. I don't think you would put that on a resume, but not everybody gets through that unscathed.

And, oh, and, you know, wealth tip, like, probably top 10 is don't get divorced. There you go. Awesome. Awesome. All right. Is that my question or yours? I got this. What is the title of your future memoir?

Oh, man. how we triggered the second renaissance. Ooh. Fancy. Last question. Brandon. I got to ask what is the second Renaissance? What is that?

I got to know. Well, the first one was 500 years ago and the second one's long overdue. All right. And it hasn't started yet. All right. People need to wake up. I think if we get 1% of the people to wake up, we could have one. It would be pretty exciting.

I like it. It will be pretty exciting. How's that? There you go. Much better. All right. Last question. What are you most grateful for right now in this moment? I'm grateful for God, love, and wisdom, which are all the same thing. Awesome.

And if there's anything you should pursue in your life, there you go. That's it. I love it. All right. Thanks, Perry. Thanks. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer.

The show is produced by Ian K. Copywriting is by Calicoe content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.biggerpockets.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk. So use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing.

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