BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 221: Buy and Hold Real Estate—What Works and What Doesn’t with Tim Shiner

Episode Date: April 6, 2017

A lot of people want to invest in rental properties, but a lot of people also fail when they jump in. Why? That’s the topic on today’s episode of the BiggerPockets Podcast, where we sit down with Tim Shiner to learn his story of going from zero to over 150 units and the lessons he picked up along the way. You’ll hear some incredible strategies for getting unicorn deals when there are multiple offers, the #1 most important characteristic Tim looks for when buying a property, and why he focuses primarily on “higher end” rental houses. You’ll love all the humor, wisdom, and knowledge Tim brings to the show, so sit down, relax, and be prepared to learn! In This Episode We Cover: How he got started buying quality real estate What makes his location special Why he doesn’t have a real estate license The importance of looking at the “horizon” and the end goal A discussion on diversification on investments The story of the “big white card board“ Why you should focus on what you are better at Tips for finding mentors The details on his 140 deals Insight into the debate on high-end vs. low-end properties Why he loves appreciation Tips for partnering with your significant other A discussion on buying your kid a property How he finds deals Why you should set a goal, achieve it, and reward yourself And SO much more! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Webinar Be a Guest to the Show School of Life Podcast Control Uber Books Mentioned in this Show Elon Musk by Ashlee Vance Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki Rich Dad’s CASHFLOW Quadrant by Robert Kiyosaki The 10X Rule by Grant Cardone 50 Things They Didn’t Teach You in School by Tim Shiner Tweetable Topics: “Nobody cares as much about your investments as much as you do.” (Tweet This!) “The goal is to get as many checks coming in the mail as possibly as you can.” (Tweet This!) “If you have a strong enough ‘why’ while you invest, that will plow your way.” (Tweet This!) “Set a goal, achieve it, and reward yourself.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Tim Tim’s BiggerPockets Profile Tim’s Company Profile Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show. I don't know. 221. Oh, okay. Is that what this is? Oh, yeah. That's why Josh says this all the time. I know.

That's why Josh does this. Okay. Let me try out again. Brandon doesn't know how to read. All right, we're going to do this. This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 221. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing,

without all the height, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everyone? This is Brandon with the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my lovely, wonderful co-host, Mindy Jensen. How you doing, Mindy?

I'm doing great, Brandon. How, not doing as well as you. Aloha, Brandon. Aloha. So, first of all, if my sound sucks, today. It's because I actually ordered a really nice microphone knowing I was going to be going to Hawaii for a while. And so I ordered this fancy microphone here and I get here and it doesn't work. So I'm, you know, I'm going to go figure that out later. But anyway, yeah, I'm here in Hawaii for a while.

I want to learn how to surf and stuff. So that's what I'm doing. How about you? What's Denver like? A little cold today. Today I thought of you, knowing that you were in Hawaii, I thought of you as I drove through three and a half inches of snow on the way into work that took me twice as long to get here. But I persevered because I knew I would get to talk to Mr. Brandon Turner, my favorite of the podcast hosts. Yes, I'm going to quote that, and I'm going to send that to Josh later. You could totally quote that. He doesn't listen anyway. He doesn't listen anyway.

So with that, I mean, we have an amazing show today. In fact, I would actually put today's show in my top five of all the Bigger Pockets podcast from the beginning. Wow. Yeah, it was amazing. So this guy is awesome. He is awesome. His name is Tim Shiner. he's from Texas. He's been investing since before dirt was invented and he's made a pretty penny doing it.

He has. And he's got a couple Lamborghinis, I think. And he's talked about like kind of the psychology behind why he has those. I think if there's one thing you guys take away from today's podcast, listen for that. Like the reason for rewarding yourself for doing amazing things in real estate. I love that kind of process or theory, whatever would call it. So, yes, big fan. He drops nuggets of wisdom. and truth, and I never thought of that all throughout the show. Yeah, the whole thing. So, but before we get to a show, we want to quickly cover today's quick tip. All right, today's quick tip is, I actually wanted to bring it up because, you know, I'm sitting here, and I rented like an Airbnb.

This is my humble bragging. And, you know, it's really hot out here, and the sun's hitting my face. It's really, you know, so here, here's the deal. Three or four months ago, or when was FinCon? I don't know, five months ago? September. September. Okay.

Me and Mindy went surfing together. actually. And while we were there, we met a guy named Doug and Doug Nordman. Is that how you say the last name? Doug Nordman. Doug Nordman. Nord's. And he taught us how to surf. Me and Mindy, we went surfing together. And I loved it so much. I said, someday, I want to take and just like spend a month learning how to surf. And I, you know how many times do we all do that, right? Someday I want to do that. Someday I want to do that. So my quick tip today is very simple. If there's something you want, go and make plans right now. So after I got home from FinCon, I went online on Airbnb and I booked out a entire month and, well, about a month here on Airbnb at a fantastic place out here in

Hawaii because I had no ability to back out. Like, I booked it. I scheduled. I paid the money and it's in. So anyway, I found my quick tip for today is there's something you want. Go schedule it today. Go make it happen today. And you can't back out.

That is an excellent tip. And it flows so well with the topics that we talk about today on today's show. It does. You should link to some of your. surfing pictures. I just might throw it up in the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 221. Do you ever notice how every passive investment somehow turns into a very active lifestyle,

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thousands invest smarter. If you want to do the same, visit BiggerPockets.com slash retirement to learn more. Here's the thing about traveling. If you buy food at the airport, a burrito, salad, bag of peanuts, you start wondering if you should have opened a savings account for snacks. So wouldn't it be great if you could actually earn money while you're, traveling. Well, you can. Airbnb has something called the co-host network. While you're away, you can hire a vetted local co-host with hosting experience to help take care of things, communicating with guests, preparing your space, managing reservations, everything runs smoothly while you're off making memories. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much

at Airbnb.com slash host. We all joke that rentals are passive, but if you're spending nights matching receipts or guessing what a property earned last month, that's not passive at all. Base lane fixes is that part of landlording, the financial chaos. Their banking and AI bookkeeping system automatically tags every transaction, updates cash flow insights in real time, and builds the reports you need for tax season. You can even automate transfers and move money around

without paying wire fees. It's just cleaner. Sign up at baselane.com slash BP and get a $100 bonus. Baselane is a financial technology company and not a bank. Banking services provided by Threadbank, member FDIC. Today's guest, as many said, is Tim Shiner, Shiner like the eye getting punched in the face. That's what he said.

And again, this show is just fantastic. I don't think we need to do any more intro because we already talked about him. So let's just bring him in. You want to welcome him into the show, Mindy? You bring him in. I would love to. Hey, Tim. Thanks for joining us.

Welcome to the show. Thank you, Mindy for having me. Thank you, Brandon. Smartest man on the world. Smartest man in the world. So let me give some preference what that means. Before we started recording this, apparently Mindy was bragging about me and said I was the smartest person in the world. Brandon, you know something.

I might. Well, think about it. He's in Hawaii. You got a blue wall and I've got a wall in Las Vegas behind me. So I think he is a smartest guy in the world right now. I must be, at least in this moment. This is pretty good. So, Tim, I don't know a whole lot about you.

I mean, I know you're a BP guy. I know I've seen your name around a lot, but I don't know a lot of your story. So why don't we just start with, you know, very, very beginning. How did you get into this real estate thing? So I've always been a huge goal setting type person. And my goal is to have a house before turned 20. And I did it at 19 and 10 months. That's a good news.

The bad news. is I got robbed twice. So, so, I grew up kind of middle class, kind of lower into middle class, like we had tough skins, but we didn't have Levi's, that type of middle class. And so I were toughkins. I don't know that is. Unfortunately, you're too young. They're the jeans you got at Kmart, which isn't around anymore.

So, so anyway, I always set goals for myself. My goal was to have a house before I turned 20. I got a little two-bedroom, one bath, one car garage on an acre in Fort Worth, Texas. I grew up some in Chicago, and I live now in Texas. I've been there for the vast majority of my life. But then I got broken into his little $45,000 house, 12% interest, you know, neat little deal. Got a roommate, so it was actually cheaper than living in an apartment because I had a house. And that got me in real estate.

But what it also taught me is real estate's great, but pick your problems. If you want to live in a lower-end area, if you want to have rent houses in lower-end, you're going to have lower-end people, which is fine. I mean, you can make money a lot of different ways. 10 dimes or $1, it turns out to be $1. So from that lesson, I decided to start buying quality real estate. I mean, I have stuff on the lower end. I got four apartment complexes.

They're on the lower end. But my niche and the reason why I think y'all ask me beyond here is I buy higher-end quality real estate and great school districts. That's awesome. And I want to talk about that. Actually, I just like not two hours ago, I had a conversation with a couple of guys. We're in like an online kind of mastermind group talking about real estate. And, you know, we talked to a lot of people when they get into real estate do this. I'm going to go buy this $30,000 house.

It's $50,000 house, the $80,000 house. And they don't realize, I mean, on paper, those numbers look really good. It looks really good when you buy that $40,000 house that rents for $800 a month. But it's not always that way. Can you explain why it might not always be that way? Why is it not always as good as it looks on paper? So, you know, one of my favorite sayings is watch out for the vice and advice, because anyone will give you advice.

98% of Americans won't ever have a net worth of a million dollars. So that means 98 out of 100 people that are in your ear, whether it's a relative, a parent, your co-worker, they're giving you a device on real estate. And what I've also found is think about it. Most people, you know, maybe they buy three, four, five houses in their entire lifetime in three, four, five different decades with three, four, five different circumstances. So their advice has a really, really good chance of not being accurate. So I would have real estate people going, hey, if you buy in this more affordable area, you're going to end up being positive 100 a month or 200 a month. But I have other businesses and being positive 100 or 200 months wasn't what got me interested.

What got me interested is appreciation because I've owned stuff that doesn't appreciate. If you think about it, there's really three ways in real estate. You buy it right, which only happens once. And then there's appreciation and then there's debt reduction. Well, debt reduction is going to take a long time, whether you're on a 15 or 30-year mortgage. So buying it right only occurs once. And then debt reduction is going to take a long, long time. So what's the one thing that can happen really fast or faster than the other two is appreciation.

So I started buying stuff in great school district because at the end of the day, I mean, Brandon, it's not you. It's not me. It's Mindy. It's the woman in the relationships that's going to choose where she's going to raise her two beautiful daughters in Mindy's case. And they're going to pick a great school district. So the great school districts are always going to appreciate better. That is so true. That is so true.

It is true. Beautiful daughters. Yeah. yesterday we had a test call and my girls are like, oh, let me see. Anytime they see Skype, they're like, oh, it's got to be all about me. Until I had kids, I did not care about school districts. And then once I had kids, I thought, oh, if I live across that street, they're going to be in a way better school district. I'm not going to go to look at houses over here anymore.

I'm only looking over there. And because the difference between an okay school district and a great school district may not be a lot. on the buy-in necessarily, but it is huge on the education level and the caring for your kids. And you're right. I'm going to be the boss in where we live. Absolutely. And so, so Brandon, what I started doing, there's a town in Texas called South Lake, Texas. So now we've got 100,000 viewers that are going to start buying there and be my competitors, but that's cool. But the cool thing about South Lake is really unique. Texas is kind of weird. Like Houston, Texas, there's no zoning. You could put a high rise

next to a house. But what South Lake did is they really restricted the zoning. house has to be on an acre lot. Now they've reduced it down to a half acre. So the dirt is super expensive. It's about 300,000 just for an empty lot nowadays in South Lake. But what they also did is they made it so that no multi-family, no apartments, there's not a duplex apartment, anything there. So I own 13 houses in that area, and I feel like my houses are basically the apartments of that area. So people get online that Google great school district, Dallas-Fort Worth, South Lake's about seven minutes from Dallas-Fort Worth Airport. So they Google great school districts in Texas. It's always top five.

They normally have a football team playing for the state championship. I mean, it's a neat, neat area. So what ends up happening is somebody from out of town, Colorado or Hawaii where you're at, you're coming in and you're going to decide to rent for a year. You don't really know anyone. You're going to rent one of my houses. And then the other thing that I've done is my wife is 24-7, 365, bubbly, sweet girl. She's a Southwest flight attendant that doesn't fly that much.

But imagine that type of. bubbly personality. Plus, she is a hardcore investor and really knows what she does. So what we end up doing is we end up lending them rent a house from us. And then we've got a little slogan, we say, buy for me, tear up your lease for free. So on Valentine's Day, you're getting a box of chocolate from my wife, buy for me, tarap your lease for free. We're constantly reminding them that they can get out of their lease if they buy a house from my wife. Because how I look at it, they're going to, they're going to, they're going to leave me one way or the other. So they can either leave me with my wife having a 3% real estate commission pop or they can just be gone. The other thing that happens

is now we communicate a lot better. The move out is a lot easier because we're not adversaries. We're helping them get to the next phase. But by having them in a lease, their best friend could be a real estate agent, but their best friend can't get them out of that contract. And to add one more thing to that, the other thing is, as you guys know, when you're renting a house, a real estate agent gets one quarter on the seller side and one quarter on the buyer side of that rent to rent the house. So let's say someone's running for $2,000. The real estate agent's only getting $500 on one side, $500 on the other while they could be selling a $500,000 house and making $15 grand. So how much does a real estate agent really care about my house being empty one more

month where I might have a mortgage of $18 to $2,000 and they don't have a sense of urgency? So we had to get somebody in the family to become a real estate agent. So my wife is, my daughter, Haley, 17, she'll be a real estate agent, which turns 18. And my son, Garrett, will be a real estate agent in three years when he turns 18 also. Well, let me ask you this then, because this is something in my own life, I've wondered and a lot of our listeners are as well. Why don't you have your license? You know, my wife and I keep talking, should she get it?

Should I get it? You know, and I know, Mindy, you have your license and your husband doesn't. So, like, how do you guys define who gets it in the relationship? Do you want to take that one? Yeah, in my case, I was a stay-at-home mom when I got it. And my husband had a 9-to-5. He was a computer programmer working for the Veterans Administration. So he didn't have time to get it. Colorado has one of the highest licensing education requirements at 168 hours of coursework. So it just made sense for me to get it. Okay. In my case, I always talk about conflicting goals. Like my wife has put on this earth to be a mom. Well, when you're flying three to four days a week on a Southwest jet, then that's conflicting goals. So by her having a real estate license and helping us with our other businesses, they lost her to stay home. And that's the thing I'd encourage.

a lot of people. If you have a goal of being the greatest parent, but yet you've got a job that takes you away from the home, try to figure out something that can keep you around. And so it's worked out great. I mean, she just does a fantastic job. And think about this. Nobody's going to care about your investments as much as you do. I view my real estate investment is my 401k, and I want to be in charge of my retirement and make sure that the person with the number one interest is watching over it. Okay. That makes perfect sense. And I think, like, yeah, we, A couple of things to point out. First of all, I love that idea.

I think my wife probably will be the one that gets the license, but, you know, we're still working through that. But I love the fact to go back to something you said earlier, the buy for me, tear up your lease for free, that thing. What I love about that, I never heard that before, but I like it for a couple of reasons. Obviously, the money is great. They're going to leave anyway. It's great.

You know, it might as well get them on the commission. But I also love the subtle reminder that they have a lease. You know, like, I feel like a lot of head. It's just, like, I mean, maybe my tent. It's like, yeah, I'm going to move. Well, you know you have a lease. oh, well, you know, I find another, I don't know. I like that subtle reminder that, like, you're in a leaf.

Don't, you know, you can't just leave. But if you want to leave, just work with me and we'll take care of it. And it's kind of a win, win, win in every way. I love that. You know, like most major changes in your life, you've got to have something painful happen so you can get off the middle ground and do something. So I had a guy that rented a house. I gave a below market value because he's in the, in another industry that I'm in,

and we worked kind of together. He's a customer in that industry. So I give him a favorable rate. Well, he ended up buying a house. house and it was because he didn't realize my wife was a real estate agent. He leased for me for eight years and said, hey, I would have much rather a bot from Crystal than anyone else. And so it took that. So then, you know, I actually am the one that's handing off on all of our porches, you know, the candy or the pumpkin for Halloween or, you know, Fourth of July flags with the buy from me

therapy lease for free. But to me, what it also does, which we all should be doing is, is now it forces me about six, seven times a year to go around to every one of my properties. Because next thing you know, you wake up to six months later and you haven't visited one of your properties. So it's a win like that too. I love anything that's like a win, win, win, win on goals. And dropping off that at the different holidays definitely does that. Yeah, that's awesome.

I love it. So, Tim, are you full-time real estate investor? You have mentioned that you have other companies or other things you're doing. Yeah, I've got a lot of stuff. be boring to the listeners, but I don't, but I'm going to explain this one part because it explains why I really became passionate about buying real estate. So I own a security rep firm. So I would never sell Brandon, you an alarm system. I would sell to the big, large companies that do. So I've got a line of motion detectors, fingerprint readers, you know, cameras, stuff like that. But what's bad about

that business is I'm on a 30-day contract with all my manufacturers. So they can break up with me or I can break up with them if I find a better product line. So I got about 35 different product lines and I've got a rep firm in four states and I bought another rep firm in four states. So it's great cash flow, but it's not a sellable business. So I use the cash flow from that business in case a hot water heater breaks or a down payment on a house. Because now I view it, I've got 153 total doors. And so I view it now is if I need to liquidate or borrow against, I can borrow, I can sell or borrow against a house. And that will take care of the rest of the herd. So in my mind,

I'm 51. So if I want to be done at 65, I view it as I've got 150 head of cattle that are doors that I own. And I'm trying to get it to market to slaughter. And if I've got to kill off three doors to get the 150 across the line, so be it. Or if I'm fortunate enough financially to expand the herd to 200 doors, then so be it. But that's how I look at it. You've got to think about what your end game is. And I've got a water ski analogy. When you water ski, you're looking in front of you, you're going to fall. but if you look at the shoreline, you're going to do good. And that's kind of what real estate is, is if you look at every hot water heater, leaky toilet, it's like water skiing and falling. So you just look at it as 153 doors, I'm trying to get to 65.

And if I got thin the herd or expand the herd, so be it. And that's kind of my philosophy on that. I like that a lot. Yeah, I think... Go ahead. Go ahead, Mindy. You go ahead. I was going to ask me about his portfolio. Okay.

Well, I do want to go there as well because you said the 100 and some units. But I was going to say, I like that thinking in terms of looking at the horizon because, you know, so many times we get caught up in the day-to-day minutia of running our real estate businesses. Like, I mean, yeah, everything from this tenant didn't pay rent or should I buy this one little house here? You know, like, but it's almost like, you know, a lot of newbies come to me and they're like, well, you know, what should I do? Should I turn my house into a rental? Or should I, you know, they kind of perseviate over these things for weeks or months or years. And like, lately I've just been in the mood. I've just been like, it doesn't matter.

Just do something because that's not the end goal. Like, just start, and I don't like, yeah, I don't want to tell people to do bad deals. But so, but just like do something because none of, no individual deal is going to make you rich or bankrupt you most likely. I mean, a really big deal done bad could, but. Brandon, you and I are talking about that sucks, same thing. So I was flying back from California over the weekend. I was sitting next to an American captain that was deadheading back. He's like, he's like, Tim, he goes, I'm just so conservative.

And I said, I said, can we just be candid? I'm like, let me walk you through this. You're a W-2 wage earner as a captain on a man. you are right in the crosshairs of taxation. And I said, you think you're being conservative by not investing in real estate, but you really are not being conservative because you have one oxygen lifeline, if you're scuba diving, called the check from American. Wouldn't it be better to have 100 oxygen tanks from different businesses,

real estate rent? I said, so who's really the one that's risky and who's the one that's conservative? So, you know, I look at real estate. My goal is to get as many checks coming in the mail as I possibly can every single. month. And I know that sounds obvious, but most people just have a job that pays you. So I've got 35 product lines. I've got 153 renters when we're full coming in and, you know, some inventions and some royalties and stuff like that and some notes I'm carrying from from properties that I own or finance. But that's how I look at it. I want as many checks as I possibly can from as many revenue

streams coming in every single month. I love that. I always said I wanted to be a millionaire in at least five different streams. You know, it's like real estate business, right, book writing, whatever. Because, yeah, one of them fails or something goes wrong, and I'm still going to be okay. I want to make sure that I'm not just wealthy or secure in one field, because that's not secure. I mean, because things happen all the time. In fact, I think I heard an interview with, I think Tony Robbins a few weeks ago talking about how, you know, like, no matter what, he talked about like the seven different investment types that are out there, real estate, stocks, whatever. And he showed how, like, in a given lifetime or given, what, 20-year period, every single one of them has crashed dramatically in, like, 70, 80 percent crash. like sure he's like so if you're in any of those and that you're all in one of them you're going to lose like the only way to survive is to and to thrive is to be in multiple ones and you know kind of ab and flow inside there so yeah

brandon and i have had a conversation about diversification we have that probably multiple conversations so my visualization for that is legs underneath the table like the table i'm i'm sitting in front of has one leg if that thing gets chopped out this thing's on the floor yeah but if you have a hundred likes underneath your table and you get a whack on 20% of them, so be it, your table's still standing. So that's always been my visual for revenue streams. I like that. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, I really, I really like the analogy. I've never heard that before. But to counterpoint that, I'll ask, what about like the one thing? You know, we love that book, the one thing by, you know, Gary Keller and J. Papel. And there's another book called The Essentialism. And we all know the value of focusing and stuff. So, you know, you've got a business, you've got all these things over there. I know you've written a book. You've done, you know, I've done a lot of things.

things and I've done kind of, you know, similar stuff, but isn't that just shooting ourselves in the leg on the thing that we could do really, really well? Why not focus on one thing and just do it and just crush it? You know, I'm probably the ADD investor, so it works for me. But the one thing that I have it, and it's back in my home in Texas, is I've got a big white cardboard, and it's what I did as a kid. When I was a kid, I don't know, I'll talk about it. You said a dumpster on fire? Yeah. Yeah, that almost happened. dumpster fire on his podcast. So here's the thing. So I started this when I was a kid and it worked so well. I stopped. So I've got this big cardboard, which I actively have 80 different projects I'm

working on. And every day I read it and every day that I do something, I put a little sharpy mark on it. So what it ends up allowing you to do is you see this one goal with a bunch of dots and you see this other goal with two. And then you just decide, I'm going to kill that goal. It's just obviously it's not working. But that other goal, you see all the dots. But what it does for you is we all know nothing happens quickly. People were like real estate, like I call it get rich slowly. You know, you know, buy something to fall asleep for 10 years and maybe you got a little bit of equity. It's not a quick thing. But by having all those dots on there, it ends up getting you to a point where you literally, I mean, I love coming home every day and putting dots

because I'm achieving something. So Brandon, I think I would say it's different for me. I love having a lot of things going on. I think it's what lies about. And maybe I could be better if I did just one thing, but I just really get energized by doing a lot of things. So that works for me. So maybe it's the ADD version of real estate investing is what I'm doing. Well, the way that I look at that, because I ask myself that question all the time, but am I doing too many things? And where I translate the one thing or that methodology is when I'm on something,

I try to focus one thing on that. So when I'm trying to buy a piece of real estate, like I'm present, I'm in that, I'm buying it, and I'm going to get that down as fast. efficient as possible. But then when I'm writing a book, I mean, when I wrote the book on rental property investing in the managing one, my wife and I wrote both those in a hundred day period, every single day for a hundred days, we wrote that book. Once it was done, it was done, right? And that's, that is, like, that's how I approach it. Like, I still do a ton of different things. But when I'm working on it, like, I mean, for listeners out there to translate this,

if you're like, I want to buy my first rental property, go buy your first rental property. Just go buy it. Like, it doesn't take six months or a year. Go buy it. In two months from now, you'll have it done. And then if you want to do something a little bit different, you want go sell on Amazon or buy Tupperware or something, I don't know. Like, go ahead and do that if that's what your passion is. But, like... Wren, I totally agree. The other thing that I try to tell people, when they get freaked out about buying their

first property, I said, you got to look at the Delta. So let's say you bought a $200,000 house and you end up screwing up. Maybe it cost you $10,000 or maybe you make $10,000. And I always say, are you stepping off a cliff or are you stepping off a curb? So if you bought a $200,000 house, you made the worst mistake in your life. Maybe take a 10% hit and lose $20,000. Well, I've lost $20,000 on some stock that I have no clue. clue what they do. So I don't have a problem. I'm not, I'm not risk-averse to making a mistake.

You just don't want to step off cliffs. You don't want to develop a brand-new apartment complex with no experience. That could be devastating. I bought, I bought some lane. I bought 2.7 acres on on the highest part. Texas is pretty flat. This lake has a super high part, and I dreamed about building negative pool, infinity pools off this cliff overlooking this lake. And then I realized I'm not a developer. So, so I literally could have made a million dollar mistake or maybe I could have made a million dollars, but my concern was how much time it would distract me. I'm not good at it. Know what you're good at and what you're not good at. I'll go try a lot of other things where it's stepping off a curb so I don't get slaughtered if I'm making a mistake. So, you know, I'm very

optimistic and very open to doing stuff. You just got to watch something that could just, you know, crater you because you're trying to do too much. So to your point, sometimes you've got to focus on what you're better at. Smart. Smart. Yeah. That's really smart. So I spend a lot of time in our forums at biggerpockets.com slash forums. And I see a lot of people posting in there. I want to buy a 55 unit apartment building. Great.

What kind of experience do you have? I've never purchased anything in my whole life. Well, I think you should start off slightly smaller. I'm not saying, I'm not trying to crush your dreams, but you do need to get some experience before you just jump over a cliff. Or have a mentor that can really hold your hand. And God, God, I've got a guy. that should be on one of your future podcasts.

His name's Matt. He's got 13 storage facilities, self-storage facilities. And every time he builds them, he gets between a million five and 2.5 million worth of equity. So I probably will build a storage facility, but it's one of my best friends that can hold my hand, and he's done it 13 times. And so now that's, you know, I'm interested in his story. And I know that he had helped me, so that isn't as much of a risk. I mean, think about it, that's probably going to be a $4 million endeavor.

but I'm not paralyzed or challenged by it because, you know, I've got a thing that I always say that mentors come before money just like it does in the dictionary. So you find the mentors, find the people that have done what you want to do, and befriend them and try to get them to help you. I love that. And by the way, if you want to let your friend know and anybody else, go to BiggerPockets.com slash guest and you can apply to be on the Bigger Pockets podcast. Put your information in there. You know what? I'm going to do one better. I'm going to send a film crew to him and film crew to my buddy Josh Randall and Kentucky.

and we'll get you video. We kind of like doing these videos like MTV Cribs to make Mindy's life a little bit easier. Let's talk about that. Mindy, tell us the story of how Tim actually got on the podcast. So Tim did go to BiggerPockets.com slash guest, and he told me a little bit about himself. He shared a video of himself.

And what he had done is he hired two high school kids from a town in Texas that actually my cousin, I actually thought my cousin went to high school with these kids, but it turns out there's, I guess, 100 high schools in this city. And he hired them to come in and film him because I will go out on the limb and say, Tim is not the most technologically advanced person on the planet. And he's got a pen and paper in front of him. I love it.

And these, but these kids know about how to take a video and how to, how to edit it. And he sent me three or four minutes of, hey, this is what I've done. I've got this experience. He paid these kids $100 to film it. So he didn't even like take advantage of these kids. Then he paid them $100 if they liked, if he liked it. And then he paid them $100. He said, I'm going to give them $100 if you choose me, which is not why I chose it because I like it.

So I guilted her into it. Yeah. This is a product of a payoff. Sorry you have to watch this today. But he didn't pay me off. He will take bribes. You're right. I will not take bribes in the form of...

You're right. It's the kids. And I'm throwing them out there. It's Kyle Ball and Evan Russo were the ones that did the video. That's awesome. Well, I love the hustle. Yeah, I love that hustle that goes into it. I mean, like, we want an awesome guest on the show.

So if you guys are listening to this and you want to come on the show, you know, go to BiggerPockets.com, I guess, and see if you can top what Tim did. So, moving on. Let's do this back on track. Back on track. And let's talk about your portfolio and what types of units and what types of units. deals. You have 153 doors. You said you have 13 high-end rentals in Texas. What are the other 140? Okay. I'm going to back up just a little bit. The stuff in South Lake, what's neat about is it appreciated 20% last

year, and I've got $5 million worth of real estate. So I made a million passively on that. And what I always look at it, let's say that somehow, I mean, I'm positive cash flow and all that because I've had it so long. Let's say I wasn't. And let's break down the numbers a little bit smaller. Let's say that you made $100,000 worth of appreciation, and it took $20,000, I call it, to feed the beast. You know, hot water heaters, empty stuff. Well, what you've got to look at it is if you've got other ways of making money. You'll look at your net, what did you make? What is your net worth on that?

So on that example, you would have made $80,000 because you made $100 on appreciation. It took $20 to feed the beast. My scenario was made a million, and it was positive only because I've had it for so long. So that's good. So the other stuff I did is in the middle of the recession, you could not get a resuscation. you could not get a residential loan anymore. So, you know, I thought I got to go faster. Kind of like you said, Mindy, you're going, hey, walk before you run.

And Brandon, you echo those sentiments. So I thought I was ready for multifamily. And so there's a rural area in Kentucky where I own other businesses. And I thought, I'm going to buy there because it's affordable. So I've got a 24 unit, a 27 unit, a 24 unit that has a trailer park and a 48 unit. And I got some houses and some buildings up there. But what's great about that on apartments is when you have, a house and you're empty, you're either 100% full or 100% empty.

When an apartment, you're a fraction of it. So let's take a 24 unit. Maybe I've got four empties. So now I'm 20 out of 24 full. So you're never 100% empty. And that's the kind of cool thing about multifamily. But the thing that is frustrating in my scenario is it's the caliber, what type of problems you want to have in life?

When you're going to do a business deal that could create a whole revenue stream of many, many thousands of dollars a month for a decade, and then you've got a renter that's renting an apartment for $400. you know, wreaking havoc. It's just, you know, pick, pick your problem type of deal. So quite honestly, I like high-end real estate because of the lack of problems. I mean, perfect example. My South Lake stuff, if I don't cash one of their checks, they call me, hey, Tim, you didn't cash our check. Up there, I'm chasing them. So, you know, kind of pick your problem. The people in my South Lake houses, they have 750, 800 beacon scores. They shouldn't be renting. They're renting because

they went through a divorce or keeping their kids in the district. They're renting because they're They moved from New Jersey and they want to give a lay for the land and not go buy a $900,000 house right out of the gate. So they're great quality people that most of my renters haven't rented since they were in college. I mean, you kind of got to remind them what you got to do and what they do because they just aren't there aren't serial renters. So but like I said before, I mean, you buy right, you have debt reduction, which takes time. But the big thing for me is appreciation. So I'm looking to buy in areas that are highly populated that are appreciated, that are appreciates. and that's what that area has been for me.

On that appreciation note, because this is a topic that's debated a lot and a lot of bar fights have been started over it, you know, appreciation versus cash flow. So, you know, when you're first starting,

I tend to recommend people buy things that, you know, you're trying to leave your job or whatever, that cash flow, right? Yeah. But at some point, it kind of shifts to appreciation. So where do you see like that,

where's that line? Where should somebody focus more on cash flow, more in appreciation? And isn't appreciation just gambling? I mean, that's what people say. I think it is, if you've got to market this,

this boom and bus. Texas, unfortunately, has the 47th worst property taxes in the U.S. We don't have a state income tax, but we have property taxes. And what that's done is it's kept investors from flooding Texas because 47th worst taxes, I mean, people are picking different areas to do it like Florida or something like that. So we've been real steady. We've grown like this. We haven't been like that ever. Even in the economic downturn, there wasn't many deals to be had in the area that I was buying. I bought a few and had to. have private money and pay 10% interest, but there were such deals that I couldn't pass it up. So I would say if your market's like this, then I'm not worried about appreciation.

If it's California, you're up, $200,000, you're down $200,000. That might be a different story. But for me, I was reading a Warren Buffett book when he was talking about Berkshire Hathaway, and what they did is they made thread and yarn and textile stuff, and it was super intensive to buy more machinery. But it threw off a decent little cash flow, but he was very much of a commodity. of the type product. You know, Brandon and Mindy, your threat wasn't better than Warren Buffett's threat.

It was all kind of the same. And so what I was thinking of the exact same time, I've got this rep firm that throws off good cash, but I can't sell it. So why not use the cash from that business to put it into something that's growing faster? Another thing I'll say about appreciation, I mean, the key that real estate has that most investments doesn't. So let's say you bought a dollar worth of stock. And you'd have to go make $1.40, get tax down to a dollar, invest.

a dollar and then the dollar worth of stock went up 20%, then you get taxed on the 20%. That's challenging, where if you look at real estate, you put 20% down, the bank puts 80% down, and then you end up getting all the appreciation. So let's take a simple example, $100,000 house. You put $20,000 down, the bank goes 80. Well, now that house goes up 20%. You just made 100% on your $20,000 you put down because now it's worth $120,000, so you just made 100%.

Let's say it took two years, five years, 10 years, whatever. 100%. Let's say it took 10 years. That's 10% a year. The other thing that's really helped that it's kind of, I've had two lucky things happen that I didn't intend on. One was I never really factored in depreciation. So now I think it's something like the first $250,000 I make every year is tax-free because

it's depreciation. You know, you get to depreciate those properties on 27 and a half years. Well, when you have one house, it's not much. Let's say you have a $275,000 house. You get to write off $10,000 worth of depreciation, your first $10,000 worth of income. But when you have a bunch, it starts being a really huge thing. The other thing I get lucky is oil and gas. They gave me a bunch of leases underneath my ground on oil and gas. I made about a quarter of a million dollars on that purely by accident. It's like being born rich.

That was just a fun little thing. And then they ended up never drilling. So the two byproducts that were kind of, the oil and gas thing was an anomaly. But the depreciation, once you start having a big portfolio, the depreciation is huge. Can I talk about one other thing I want to throw out. It's kind of real set. So I got a buddy, my buddy Josh, and hopefully we'll do a podcast later. But I'm always concerned about husbands and wives not having the same goals. And so the guy wants to be in the vestor, the girl wants to be an investor. And then the first time some bad happens, like a renter destroys your house, hot water here, leaky toilet on Thanksgiving. We had to go cook somebody's turkey on Thanksgiving because the oven went out of their rent house. Well, you got to do

whatever you got to do. But if you got a bad attitude, you don't have a plan, then it's like, great. just ruined our Thanksgiving. We've got to cook the turkey for someone else. So what my buddy Josh did is he's got four kids and his wife was like, why are we buying another rent house? Because she's a wonderful human being, but she just didn't see the long vision of it. And so he is the best dad and he takes them on these vacation. And in his living room, you have all these picture frames, the cheesiest picture frames you've ever seen with a family picture. They go to Atlantic City, there's shells on them. They go to Florida. There's dolphins on it. But They have a family picture.

I mean, he must have 200 of these things. So what I said to Josh said, why don't we combine a goal? He told me about a house he bought. It was a $50,000 house. And I said, would you have paid $55 for it? He goes, yeah, it's worth $80. I said, good. Factor in an extra $5,000 and take your family on a vacation every single time you buy a house.

So now it's not, oh, no, we bought another house. It's, oh, yeah, we get to go on another family vacation. So I'm all about these mind games and trying to combine goals so that one person isn't the obstacle in your wealth. And so that's what he does. Every time buys the house, takes his family on a vacation. So arguably, he probably has a better family life than anyone I know. And he has as good of a real estate portfolio as anyone I know. I really like that a lot.

Because, yeah, it is really hard to sometimes see progress when you're buying rental properties. Like, it's just, you pick up another one, it's another headache. Paint trying. Watch a paint dry. It's slow, man. It's like a snail race. Yep. I started giving him a few years ago, my wife and I kind of made an agreement that she would get to keep all

late fees and all, any kind of fees that we got application fees. She gets all that because it's a hassle deal of it. And it's like, oh, I got to deal with another, you know, person who paid late late. Now it's like, oh, good. They paid rent late. I get 60 bucks or 50 bucks or whatever, you know? Exactly. But you know what?

That's smart. You've just played it the right way. So I'm in Vegas right now. My deal with my wife because I like to gamble is when I win, I go buy you a Louis Vuitton. So it's the same type of thing. Now she does it give me a hard time for being at the grass table. So, but if you think about it, your wife, hopefully, is someone you're going to be with the rest of your life. So, and people that choose not to invest in real estate, you're picking your poison.

I mean, if you don't have a plan for wealth in your life and you're hoping that someone else is going to take care of it, then you're really putting it at risk. So if you get with your spouse and you say, here's what we're going to do, here's why we're going to do it, and combine your goals, then you've got a great partner. I hear it all the time where people like the husband can't buy rent house because the wife doesn't want to or vice versa, and they never get in it because they didn't figure out the why. I'll toss one more out to you. So, you know, I always go to people, I go, hey, man, I figured out a way for your newborn child to go to college for free. And if it's 200,000, it's 200,000. And they're like, okay, what is it? I said, and you're going to teach your kids in education.

I said, go buy a rent house that is, let's say 200,000. Put it on a 15-year note. And now it's going to be free and clear by the time they're 15 years old. But you're also going to teach your kid, hey, we're pulling weeds, we're fixing out water here, is we're doing all that other. But what's also great is, let's say that $200,000. house 15 years later. Let's just say it's modestly worth 250. It didn't really kill it. 250. Well, instead of selling it and having a taxable event, refinancing it now is free and cleared. You just pulled out 200,000 because you're in, you know, an 80% loan to value ratio.

And now you have 200,000 free for your kids to go to college. Or, and I always say, my plan might not be the plan, but tell me what your plan is. Everyone else's plan is work hard, get tax on the money, invest it, get tax on the money, and then pull it out. And you got nothing. But what's great about this plan is she just, I always view it as shearing the sheep. We didn't kill the sheep. We just sheared off 200 grand and we still have the sheep so it can grow more wool. Sheeps have wool, right? Yeah, I think.

Do they? I think so. That's where wool comes from. My wife and I just did that exact strategy. Like we bought a year ago, my little girl was born. And so we bought her a fourplex, five days after she was born, we closed on a fourplex, putting on a 15-year mortgage. And so not only, I think it'll be worth almost exactly the number you said.

Between two and 250, maybe three then. And it's probably worth 150 to 2 right now. And the beautiful part is a couple things. One, it's going to pay for her entire college. Or if she didn't want to go to college, like, she's going to get an amazing education. Because like you said, pulling weeds. She'll be, like, as soon as she understands what a rental is, like how that works, she'll be trained from the time now until then.

If she wants to use it to buy real estate when she's 18, I don't care. If she wants to use it for a business, I don't care. Like, it's her money. But I'm going to refinance it so that the equity is hers. It's still my property. Absolutely. It's cash. Property is going to cash full like almost $1,000 a month from now until whenever.

I get to keep that. That's my money as well. It's her college education. My tenants are paying for it. I'm doing what I call the Burr strategy where you buy it, rehab it, rent it out, refinance it, and then repeat the process. So I'm getting all my cash back that I have into the deal. So I'll have nothing invested in the deal at the end of the day, hopefully, as long as the appraisal comes back good enough.

And it covers her entire college. Every single kid. If I have lots of kids, I don't know. I love having kids, though. The first one was great. I'll probably do it again. If I have more kids, every kid is going to get one of those. And I tell everyone the same thing.

Like, buy your kid a property. And who cares? Leverage it, you know, as much as you want because let the tenants pay it off. I totally agree. But, you know, I always say find the why. If you have a strong enough why while you're doing it, that's the thing that's going to plow you through a tough time. So my why is retirement horizon 65.

And that's my why. And I've got a herd of properties. You know, your why is on that fourplex is for your daughter. education. So find the why and then apply real estate to that challenge or opportunity or problem. But yeah, find the why and make sure that your spouse is on board. That way it doesn't become combative. I know I keep saying that my wife is phenomenal and super supportive, but I hear it all the time from other people are going, you know what? We just, you know, my wife doesn't want to deal with leaky toilets or my husband's not handy and all that. There's a million reasons not to do

something. But, you know, there's a, I mean, I say this. My work has made me, I, I've made a great living pretty much all my life. But the modest amount of wealth I have is from real estate. And so I look at folks that have done kind of the similar things I have. And I look at the difference in our net worth. And it's all because of real estate. I mean, think about South Lake a million dollars with appreciation last year. You know how hard it is to make a million dollars?

And to have, you'd have to make a million four or a million five to tax it down to a million. It's just, it's crazy. And then what if that job took you away from your home 200 nights a year? That's terrible, too. Fully agree. I fully agree. Unless you're in Hawaii like you, Brandon. Unless you're here.

So, all right. So I want to shift gears here, and I know I say that phrase a lot, but it's my favorite phrase. I actually learned that from a guy named Sreeny, who had the School of Life podcast back in the day. Used to always say, we're going to shift gears now. So we're going to shift gears now, and head over to a newer segment of our show. We just started introducing them recently, and that is called our Random Five. It's Time for. It's Time for. It's Time for.

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They've been trusted partners with BiggerPockets for over a decade, and if you want to learn more, visit BiggerPockets.com slash retirement. Wouldn't it be great if your houseplants paid rent while you were out of town? I mean, they've got the whole place to themselves, lots of sunlight, zero responsibilities. But no, they just sit there waiting for someone to spray them with some cool mist, like a bunch of leafy loafers. But guess what?

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slash bigger pockets and get $100 bonus. Base lane is a financial technology company and is not an FDIC insured bank. Banking services provided by Threadbank, member FDIC. All right, the random five. These are five random questions just to help us get to know you a little bit better, Tim. So number one, if you had to pick, besides your family,

if you had to pick three people to be on a desert island with you, I'm kind of tweaking the question a little bit. deserted desert desert island three people not your family who would you pick with anybody alive dead people you know celebrities doesn't matter Warren Buffett for sure he's kind of old though he wouldn't be very helpful on a deserted island yeah

I don't think I'm allowed to bring a girl my wife wouldn't give me a hall pass on that we got to rule out all the women I don't know I have a lot of respect for a lot of people I respect for entrepreneurs. I mean, you can stick Mark Cuban on there. I mean, he probably talks as much as I do. But I have a lot of respect for him. I like how he thinks.

I don't know. I mean, I've read so many books like Cardona, like him, I, Kiyosaki. That's more than three. I don't really know because I've got a lot of hero because I read a ton of books. So like whatever book I'm reading, like I'm reading Elon's must book right now. I probably look, Kim, because you can figure out how to get us off that. But whoever's book I'm reading, they're my hero for the next, you know, 10, 10, 20 days. So sorry, I did a horrible job answering that.

That's all right. Elon Musk and Thomas Edison. Yeah, they'd get the two of them together. I've thought about writing a book except I'm not sci-fi. But can you imagine the two of those guys partnering up like with technology today? Oh, my goodness, the things they would invent. I'm sorry, go ahead, Brandon. No, you're next one.

Which one do you want? Do you tan or do you burn? I burn. I burn too much Irish blood in me. Brandon, are you Irish? because you're redhead. I am partially very smaller. It's more Norwegian.

Okay. All right. Next question. If you had a yacht, maybe you do have a yacht, but if you had a yacht, what would you name it? Ooh. Oh, my God. Man, I wish you guys would have gave me these beforehand. The bigger pocket yacht.

Probably big goals. Big goals. All right. Everything's a goal in my life. So probably big goal. That's a good one. All right. Mindy, what do you got?

That was three, right? Five apps. What are five apps you need on your cell phone? Am I allowed to do a shameless plug here on one? Sure. Do it. So I invented an app called Card Dart. And what it is, is normally when you get someone's contact information, it's like Mindy Jensen, her phone number, email, it's pretty vanilla. So what Card Dart is, you do a little video of yourself, it's free, it's in the Apple. You do a little video of yourself, and it has your information.

So now if you're trying to get someone to sell you a property, you have a little bit of flavor about yourself. So my wife had a listing and all these California investors were calling on it. And she was just texting her vanilla V card. Well, my wife is 5'1, Fireball, Blonde, Peppy, an investor. So why would she not send a card dart going, I'm an investor, you're an investor. I think like an investor, call me with her V card. So it's card dart. That's one of my favorite apps.

Uber, I can't live without. I mean, you know, Uber, God bless Uber. Another app is probably Control 4, which does all the automation of my house. What else I have in here? The bigger pockets app? Since we're doing shameless plugs, yeah. Speaking of shameless plugs. I don't know, Twitter.

So I like to bet on sports. It might be a sports betting app on there too. All right. All right. Did you pick Enzi or Gonzaga last night? North Carolina, thank you. I got slaughtered on blackjack table while I was watching the game, but it did extremely well on North Carolina.

I picked Gonzaga to go the whole way, and I am so mad that they didn't win. I don't actually care. I'm about 1,500 reasons why I'm happy that they did your team lost. Okay, fair enough. All right. Last question of the random five. Would you rather work for the FBI or NASA?

That's a good question. FBI. All right. Why? Why? I mean, what's NASA done in the last 30 years? Elon Musk's crushing them. That's true.

But you might find out stuff that you have no clues going on. I think it would be extremely interesting. Every day would be different. All right. All right, cool. Well, that was our random five. Just kind of a little part of the show to shake up things a little bit. Now, let's get back to real estate.

Next question is, how do you find deals today? I mean, what are you doing that's working today to find good properties? Well, I mean, the one thing, anything in my criteria, I get emailed automatically. any real estate agent can do that. My wife does it for me. And so I view it as I've got to see it as soon as anyone, as soon as anyone possibly can. The other thing I do is, is I always make, these are a couple trick moves I do. So always offer cash. And I always have a line of credit to buy it because I feel really sorry for the, you know, the Jack and Jill Barry that are trying with the two kids trying to, trying to buy a house with a 80% 20% down 80% deal compared to a deal compared to a, you know, an investor that can just cash it and slaughter it. The other thing that I do, if you think about it, I always tell people when they're writing a contract, don't freak out until the last hour of option period. Write contracts like crazy.

You can always pull out before options. So lots of times people are like, oh, I don't know, I don't know. I'm like, that I don't know, you're going to lose the deal. Write it. Lose $100 bucks, lose $500, whatever it takes if you pull away from the deal. So the other thing I do is to do super high earnest. So let's say it's a $200,000 house. I'll put $100,000 earnest check.

and I'll do a shorter option time so that they'll pick me. The earnest is really kind of a trick because it doesn't hit until the deal's done. So writing $100,000 earnest check on a $200,000 house. And like the last one I did, they had 11 offers. And so I promise you, no one had $100,000 earnest. No one had a seven-day close. No one had any of that stuff. So I feel sorry for the folks that were trying to buy a nice little house because, you know,

it just crushed it. So the high earnest, the high earnest is, It's not even real. It seems real, but it isn't real. But you think about that person's maybe sold a house once every 10 years, they see that this guy is putting $100,000 down. Oh, man, he must be for real. So that's a little move that I've learned.

I love that. I've read about that in the forums. I don't want to put down $100,000 of earnest money personally because I don't want to lose it. But like you said, it doesn't matter if you put down Brandon's favorite amount is a dollar. That's only with like private. at sellers. MLS, yeah, I'll jack that up all the way. That's funny. Brandon wrote an article about how he put a dollar down.

Yeah, my fourplex for Rosie. That was a dollar down, that fourplex. Yeah, the one that he wants to finance his child's education. He invested a whole dollar in her. I'll be sure to tell her that when she's older, Brandon. But yes, the psychological block of, oh, my God, this is $100,000. And if I don't go through with the contract, then I'm going to lose this money. how many times do you keep the earnest money if the deal falls through?

It happens almost never. I had dinner with a guy. You got option. Think about the earnest is at the title company, and you've got a contract. And so let's say you have the seven-day option. You've got till six days and 23 hours, because that's how many are in a day now, before you really have to do anything. Can you explain that real quick?

For those people who are brand new, I have no idea what you mean by option and all, can you explain what that process is and why you're not? not losing your earnest money. Okay. So you write a contract and you have an option period. The option period is to allow you to get inspections and, you know, just see what's right or wrong. Typically, option is seven to ten days. And so you give the seller typically $100 or $500, depending on how much the house is. So you give them an option check for, let's say $100. So you give them an option check for $100. Let's say it's a $200,000 house. I'm going to offer all cash and I'm going write the title company a $100,000 earnest check. So that $100,000 doesn't kick in until the last

day of option. When options expired, then you have a deal. You've got to go through with it. So for seven days, I'm figuring out whether I really want to buy this. But what I love for $100, I tied up that property for seven days. I'm in the first position. You can't, you can't do anything around me, which is great. So all I'm saying is, when you're out of contact, don't freak out until you're out of option because that's really when it's executed and that's really when you have to go through. So many people get caught up on that. Well, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. And then they lose properties.

And then they end up getting another property that wasn't as good as the first one. And now they feel like they got the bridesmaid and not the bride on the deal. You know, in my, in my area, we don't have, I mean, we don't have like, it's a little bit different in that we don't have like the option necessarily. We don't pay $100 and like that. We just like, when I do an, when I make an offer, I do a seven-day inspection period. and I give my earnest money to the title company. And I've never actually put down money in an option.

I wonder if that's your area specific or if it's just my area is not specific. Yeah, that's Texas. Okay, yeah, maybe. But it's the same principle basically applies. I don't have to even spend the hundred bucks though. Good for you, man. It's just super competitive. It's super competitive in our area.

Like that last house is 11 offers. So you've got to, you know, if you're not a competitive situation, then, you know, put a buck down. But if you are, try to figure an angle where your deal's going to be accepted. Because, you know, 10 people lost and I won on that deal. And lots of times I do lose. But I went on that one just because I used the hammer to kill an aunt. I mean, I just threw it all at it.

Yep. And I think that's what you got to do. Now, what about somebody who doesn't have cash right now to go and buy a property? What do they do? That's funny. I've got a kid that's interned for me out in Lubbock. And he's in the exact same scenario. So I always say, watch off for the vice and vice.

Find the smartest person you know. I've got a mortgage broker that's just absolutely awesome. 73 years old brings his dogs to work, smokes and cuss. He couldn't be on your podcast because it would be da-da-da-da-da-da-be. His name's Mike Anderson. He's a sweetheart. So Justin, he's 21 years old. He's a senior at Texas Tech, and he's trying to buy a house.

So we called the smartest person we knew, Mike, and said, what can we do? Well, what Mike found is if you're within, if you're an agricultural area, they've got a deal where it's 100% financing when you're a little bit further out. And Lubbock is one of these towns that you get rural rural, real quick, about 20 miles outside of town. So here's a scenario. He's got a good credit score. He's got like 770 beacon, and he could potentially get in a house for no money down because of this ag deal.

So I think what I would do is try to find the smartest mortgage person you know and go to them. And he also found two other products, one's with 3% down and once with 5% down. So I literally went through this exact same scenario last Saturday. That's awesome. And, you know, it's a cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason when they say where there's a will, there's a way. If you want something bad enough, you're going to figure it out. And the biggest way I know is, yeah, talk to somebody else who figured it out. Absolutely.

Talk to somebody who's smart. They know this stuff. Think about what you guys know. Think about what you guys know in real estate now versus when you first started. I mean, it's just, you know, I feel like I got an MBA in real estate. And I made a lot of mistakes, too. But compared to me, you know, when I was 19, I bought my first house, man, I just learned a ton. So if you could tap a 51-year-old guy that's made some mistakes and done some things successful, go to him.

and have them help you out, that's a much better way for, you know, a 21-year-old kid to go first just trying to figure it out on his own. Okay. And one more question on that kind of, I like to always ask finding and funding together. So you find them a lot, sounds like you do a lot of MLS stuff, like with the real estate agents. How are you funding them though? How do you, I mean, you buy them for cash, but are you leaving your cash in there? What do you do? So here's what I just recently did. So I've never taken money out. And I just, we bought a, we bought a big house and I spent a fortune doing some stuff on it. So what I recently did is I just, I just threw about, I think 15 properties, lumped them together, refinanced it. There were $5 million. I took a $2.1 million loan on it,

but I pulled out a little over $300,000 tax-free. So it would have been a million-eight loan, but because I decided to shear that sheep a little. So I took $300 of it, but I didn't bring it to Vegas, thank God, and rewarded myself for my investments. And now what I have is a $500,000 line of credit that anytime I go to put a cash offer, I'd submit that $500,000 line of credit. And this just all transpired about six weeks ago. So I haven't actually bought a house since. So put that line of credit down.

Let's say the house is $250,000. Then they're going to toss that house onto my permanent line. So now my $2.1 million loan will be $2.35. And then they'll refresh my line of credit. The reason why I can do that is think about it. Let's make numbers easier. $5 million and $2 million alone. I mean, the LTV loan to value on that is astronomical.

You know, they've got, what am I, 40%, 40%, they've got 60% equity. So I can keep buying houses and not have to put anything down because my down is coming from that a massive amount of equity that I have. So my goal is to buy 10 houses in the next two years, 10 quality houses that are between 2 and 350,000. So that's a goal in the next two years. All right. And to kind of circle back to what we have, we started this conversation,

kind of last question before we go to the fire round. When you're buying these really, really nice houses, do you care about cash flow at all? I mean, what if it loses money? Would you still buy a really nice house if it lost money? Yeah, I would. But that's my particular situation. I think I would tell a young investor that needs – you know, there's a lot of books to talk about alligators.

When you have a house is negative. It's like having an alligator coming at you. So I've got enough other things going on that I'm fine with that. The demographics on the South Lake is just astronomical. I mean, the median income is like 175,000. You know, the average house is like 900,000. It's just there's just a pocket of three different affordable areas within the city, and that's it. And so I just look at, let's take Beverly Hills.

Somebody thought that a house was too much in 1970, Beverly Hills in 1980, 1990. We've got another area in Dallas called Highland Park where Jerry Jones and, you know, super elite, rich people live. And I promise you, people thought whatever they paid for it was too much. whenever they did it throughout all the years. I just think the iconic areas that have the right zoning, the right school districts, and are always going to go up. The other thing I love about South Lake, I feel like it should run for mayor. But the other thing I love about South Lake is think about it.

In the United States, in the middle of the United States, you got Chicago, Denver, and Dallas, that if you were a regional salesperson, you had to cover the whole U.S. And you don't want to be flying from L.A. to Boston or Boston in L.A. And of those three areas, Mindy lives in Colorado, but it snows. Chicago, I used to live there, it snows. Dallas doesn't snow that often. So if you're a type of guy that can live anywhere because you're always on an airplane, you're probably going to pick Dallas.

And the next thing you're going to do is you're probably making good money, and you're probably married and you have kids. So this little pocket is right next to the Dallas-Fort Worth Airport, and it's got every single thing of a wealthy, affluent family would want. And the best thing it has is super, super tight restrictions on zoning. I always joke that I've got 30,000 housewives fighting my fights for me every time in South Lake. So if they want to put up, they want to put a new Walmart. Oh, my God.

Everyone went crazy. So I have 30,000 stay-at-home moms battling my battle. So I don't have to worry about whether that town's going backwards. That makes perfect sense to me. That really does. Those women will fight your fight for you. Totally. You know, they think the land behind their house should be a forest forever.

They don't realize some investors got a couple million tied up. And so now you want to convert it to something. they lose their mind. I'm like, if you got a problem with it, keep it for us. But there's some dude that has a lot of money tied up and they aren't wants an equity moment. There you go. There you go.

All right. And of course, that advice, I think, like you said, it's going to be different for you than maybe somebody else. If you're brand new, that might have no money whatsoever, that might be different about buying a house that loses some money or, you know, whatever. Like, all these things depend a little bit, but I don't know. I love your trying to, the way you think about this stuff. Because it's like the next level of where, like, I'm trying to get to and where I know

a lot of our lessons they're trying to get to is how do it. How do we start thinking bigger? How do we take advantage of that appreciation, take advantage of these unique better deals? So very, very cool. Sure. So let's head over to the next segment of the show, which we lovingly refer to as our fire round. It's time for the fire round. Now let's get to the fire round.

These questions come direct out of the Bigger Pockets forums, and we're going to fire them right at you, Tim. You ready for this? Yes. All right. Number one. I love this question. Why do you property managers suck? Oh, boy.

They do suck. It's, you know, I spoke about goals throughout this whole deal. I don't like anyone that has a conflicting goal with me. I mean, they're running that way. I'm running this way. Let's think about a property manager. So really what a property manager does, they get a phone call from a tenant that has a problem.

So they're really just a go-between. They're going to call you and figure out what you want to do about it. And you're probably going to say, well, call a plumber. Well, they're probably going to call a plumber. or that they're getting a little something back on because they refer so many jobs to them. So that's a little bit of a conflict of interest. The other thing I really, really don't like about property managers is think about how they get paid.

They get paid on your turnover. So if someone's there for a year and then they leave, they kind of want them to leave because then they can get somebody in their new and get a brand new fee on it. So it's a conflict of interest. And again, you know, you got to, you know, I worked in restaurants when I was younger. I washed dishes. I cooked. I bus tables, I bartended.

I did all of it. So I think I have a very good understanding of what it takes to run a restaurant. And if you're a real estate investor and you hand off all the dirty work, what have you ever learned? You haven't learned anything. So I think you need to learn it. And maybe when your portfolio gets large enough and you finally find a great property manager, hand it off.

But I don't see myself ever handing it off because I think it's very, very important. And then with our deal, buy for me, tear up your lease for free. We want to take care of them right away. We want to get that problem solved. and my property is kind of my 401k of life. It's my retirement. So if there's something wrong in my retirement, like a leaky toilet or leaky faucet, I want to fix it because I don't want to flood my retirement.

So property management, no way, ever. Can I ask you, expand on that a little bit? I know this is a fire round, but when you're managing properties, I mean, what does your team look like? I mean, how much are you doing personally? I mean, you got a business, you got all this stuff. And who do you have in your employee? Maybe this is why I love it so much. My wife takes care of all of it.

There you go. Maybe that's why I love it. And she is just a taskmaster and she'll kill you with kindness. And so up in Kentucky, we've got three people up there for all that multifamily stuff. But my wife takes care of it. And she is just, I call her a hummingbird. She just never stops, man. She's just this constant motion.

And here's the funny thing. You know, garbage disposals are really easy to fix with a little Allen wrench. So they'll call over. She'll get down there with an Allen wrench. She's got a tool bag. So you see this petite little cute thing fixing it. One time there was something wrong. on a roof. She gets a ladder goals on the roof. Well, that guy feels so ridiculous asking her

to come fix his roof or his garbage disposal. They just stopped calling. So it works. me. They would have me back and I would screw it up. I'm not very handy. Yeah, that's probably why I like it because my lovely wife takes care of all of it. You know who we need to get on the show, Mindy? We need to get Tim's wife on the show. Yeah. All right. We're going to make that happen. You tell Crystal we're coming for her. All right. So next question, Mindy, take it. How specific should your goals be? Like, how detailed do you get in your goals? Thank you for asking that.

Because my thought is extremely detailed because activity is the only way the goals get done. So I'm always like on my board, putting dots on it. I'm very specific on it. There's an old saying that's been around for forever and I always talk about it. How do you eat a cow? You eat a cow one steak at a time. So someone looks at this thing and says, hey, I want to take. million dollar portfolio of real estate that could be overwhelming that could stop you from even

getting out of the gates but if you say i'm going to chop it up into a little 250 000 steak and another 200 steak and start adding up you're good to go and speaking of goals so so my goal was to have 10 houses when i was 40 brandon i heard you're 30 and you're killing it and you're your way ahead of where i was at that time but what i i'm always about rewarding yourself like if you're going to go work out for a year then you can eat a chocolate sunday so my chocolate sunday was If I had 10 houses, if my refirm was doing a certain amount, my promotional products like logo business doing a certain amount, then at 40, I allowed myself to buy a Lamborghini Giardo.

And I bought it used and had a thousand miles on it. So I got it for like, I don't know at the time, 20 grand less than what they normally was. But I always say that I'm extravagantly conservative. So even when I got those 10, I went to the dealership and man, I'm like, I don't know, I think it was a $150,000 car at the time. I'm like, I don't know if I can do it. And then I kept saying, if I don't do it, then that little sales manager in my head that's been telling me that if I did that, I could get a Lambo, then he's a liar if I don't do it.

So I did it. And I'm so happy I did it because at 50, I had 153 doors. So I went from 0 to 40, took me 10 to, I got 10. In 40 years, I got 10. But from 40 to 50, I got 153 doors. And so then I bought a red Lamborghini hurricane when I turned 50 as a celebration. for that. But here's the thing. Think about it. Most people want to go on a vacation, put it on a credit card, and figure out how they're going to pay it off at 18%. My deal is set a goal, achieve it, reward yourself. Set a goal, achieve it, reward yourself. And that way, you're excited about achieving your goals. And it goes back to what I said earlier in the podcast. Find the why. Why are you doing this? What's important to you and reward yourself when you do the right behavior? I love that. I love that. People should like rewind that last like two minutes and listen to it like five times a day. Get rid of the whole weather. Oh, yeah, who cares? All right.

Next question. My market prices are so high. Can it just keep going up? I guess we get this question a lot, actually. People worried about. Are we at the peak? I mean, how high can this stuff go? All right.

So here's my answer on that. You said earlier in the podcast you like making babies. So the only thing. I like baby. Okay, I like making babies and I like babies. All right. So how I look at it is if people keep making babies, you fall down over their Mindy, if people keep making babies, our population is going to keep growing, and people are going to

keep needing houses. So unless people stop making babies, I think we're going to be all right. Now, as far as the market price, the other thing I say is, is do you think bricks and sticks and labors are going to go down? Is all of a sudden a guy that's making $20 an hour to lay bricks? Is he going to all of a sudden take a cut to 10? So as long as bricks and sticks and labor continue to go up, the houses are going to appreciate. And I think some would say that we're printing money like crazy so it's devaluing the dollar so a house it was 200 grand it's now 300 grand just because the dollar doesn't buy as much in my book i show what inflation has done i mean i remember when when it's a kid i'm a lot older in y'all but a candy bar was five cents and then it went to 10 now

now it's a dollar 39 so i mean i don't want to be one of these guys is saying that oh it'll go on for forever but as long as people are having babies as long as labor keeps getting more expensive as long as bricks and sticks go up, I don't see houses going down. Yeah. I mean, have you priced new construction versus existing? New construction in my area is selling for about $350,3.80 a square foot, while you can still buy houses sub-200 a square foot. Somehow that has got to even out.

Yeah. So I think existing homes keep going. I think even if we do see a decline, I mean, I think long term, I mean, 20 years from now is that house that you bought in, what's the area called, whatever, Lake, South Lake or whatever? South Lake. Yeah. Like, is that house going to be worth. more or less than what it is today in 20 years. I think all of us would agree it's going to be worth

way more, like way more. Exactly. Right? So like, I mean, even if the little absent flow is like I mean, I mean, exactly what we were talking about earlier, things might go up and down, but if you keep your eye on the horizon, you're going to be fine. So I love that. And I'm an optimistic person. So, you know, whoever out there's looking at pessimistically, you probably have some valid points, but I'm a long-term investor. I hope to never sell any of my properties. I hope to hand them off to the kids. And I hope to every three to five years to shear off between two and $500,000 off of it and just keep shearing, shearing, shearing. And so that's that's my philosophy on it. Love it. Love it. Love it. It's wool, right? It's wool. It's wool. That is true.

Okay. Last question. I'm 20 years old. I am. Not a lot of money or experience. And we're in a great market. Is it a good time to get started? Yeah, every time's a good time to get started. I mean, even, I mean, you know, I've got the saying called Beautiful Barber, and it's a story I write about that how I was dreaming and scheming about buying an acre next to some land I had. And I thought about it for a year and a half. And I'm a sales guy by nature and a go-getter and optimistic person.

I wasted a year and a half dreaming and scheming. Well, what I offered her wasn't remotely close to what she thought it was worth. So I look back now, whenever I catch myself daydreaming, I'm like, stop beautiful barber and just do it. I mean, just make the offer, figure it out, go right now. I mean, the other thing is if you're 20 years old, if you do it now instead of 30, it's just going to change your trajectory. I mean, I mean, things are going to keep going up, I think, and do it now.

And even if you make a mistake, learn from it. I mean, there's no perfect – you know, one of my favorite things I say is people want – they don't want to drive to wherever they're going unless they know all the lights are green. You can't do that. You've got to go. And if you hit a red light and if you've got to stop and you got to do all that stuff, just do it. Just get going on it right away. But I mean, you're going to make mistakes.

You can't avoid them. And hopefully they're just not too terrible. That's a great. That's a great quote. You're going to make mistakes. You can't avoid them. I got a chapter in my book. I got a chapter in my books that says mistakes and failure is mandatory.

And if you think about it, every successful person we know, the reason why we know their name is they've overcome more problems and challenges. I hate the word problem, challenges than we have. The reason why we know people that are more famous, well, Mindy, you're pretty famous. but they're really famous is because they overcame more than we have. So just realize everyone has problems. Just how are you going to overcome them? I love it.

I love it. All right, let's get over to the last one of the show, which we lovingly call our Famous Four. All right, The Famous Four, these are the same four questions we ask every guest every week. We're going to find out what you've got to say about them, Tim.

Number one, what is your favorite real estate-related book besides your own? Thank you. It's got to be Kiyosaki. It changed my life. I first read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and I'm telling you, I needed a fork and a knife. I was going through it, and it was just really difficult for me. And I got through it, but I really didn't get it.

But then I read Cash Flow Quadrant. And what I would suggest, if you're getting a Kiyosaki book, start with Cash Flow Quadrant. Because once I read Casflow Quadrant, I went back to Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and it made perfect sense to me. So it absolutely changed my life. There you go. Me too. That's one of the most popular. answers to that question.

Oh, really? It's such a good book. It's what I said too online. So, yeah, I mean, it's great. Anyway, number two. Number two, what is your favorite business book in non-real estate? And not mine again, right?

We'll say not yours. We'll give you a... We'll find out what yours is in a minute. I'm just teasing y'all. So, man, I love Grant Cardone. And the reason why I love him is he just puts a foot in your tail side. You know, he just is right up. He's like the doctor Phil of, of,

business. So his latest book, Be Obsessed or Be Average. I read it. My wife's reading it now. And what I love about it, it sounds bad because, man, I'll help anybody with anything. I mean, I really feel like if you're a step above on the ladder, you've got to grab someone and bring them up a rung. But when you start doing pretty well, some people resent it because they feel like, because you're going better, they're falling behind. But I didn't do anything to hurt them. I'm just having high goals for myself. And so what be obsessed or be average from Cardone, he just basically said, hey, too bad that those people are hating on it. And you know what you had to do and what all three of us have had to do and in bigger pocket nation, what we've had to do to get ahead. It hadn't been easy.

So be obsessed about it and don't feel bad if someone begrudges your success. And that's really been a neat message because I'm the type of guy that will help anybody. And I don't understand why people aren't happy for others. Yeah, cool. I have not read that one of Grant Cardones, but I love the 10x rule, and it's on my list to read. So I try to get to a lot here. Yeah, great books. All right, cool.

Number three, Mindy. What are your hobbies? That's funny because I really don't have any. I love working. I love working so much. Real estate really is my hobby and probably sports cars. I've got the 59 Tesla ever made, which I thought was a good thing, like having a 60-night, 64-and-a-half Mustang. But Elon's a madman.

He keeps inventing more. more stuff. So I just, I just ordered the biggest, baddest one they got, that P100D, 778 horsepower, and 060 in like under three seconds. So probably sports cars, working, and real estate's my hobby. And gambling. Vegas. And gambling. Yeah. If I am purses if I win. All right. Last question from me. Number four of the famous four, what do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from all those others who give up, They fail or they never get started. Again, watch out for the vice and advice.

I mean, there's so many people that just, I mean, they'll just blabber on about anything that they have no expertise in. So what I would say to the Bigger Pocket Nation is go to someone that's doing better than you and try to emulate what they're doing. And all these other people that are the white noise out there don't listen to them. I mean, literally, 98% of people will know. never have a net worth of a million dollars. So that means out of 100 people, 98 people that are giving you advice are basing it on nothing.

So you almost have to do contrarian things and look for a mentor, look for someone that's someone that's where you want to be. And you always joke, mow their lawn, wash their car, do whatever you can do to bring value to them so they'll let you linger around and get some knowledge. Fantastic. So smart. Such a great answer. All right.

Mindy, you want to take us out the last question. Is that it? Are we almost over? We got one more. We got one more for you. We have one last question. I'm going to push that table for all of me. Where can people find out more about you, Tim?

Thank you for asking. Timshiner.com. Shiner like a black guy or like Shinerbach beer. Just Timshiner.com. There's a lot of free stuff on there. I've got a poster, 25 habits of a future millionaire. And it's my goal to have young people have that on their wall. And it's basically a breakdown of my book, 50 things they didn't teach you.

in school. And that post- That book. And it's funny, because if you weren't going to shamelessly plug me, I was going to do it. It's on Amazon.

Here's what's great about it. I'm not making a nickel off it. 100% of proceeds, 100% of profit is going to a food bank in Keller, Texas, called Community Storehouse. And what I write in the last page of the book is if this book gave you more knowledge

than you paid for it, then make a donation. And it's good information, too. They don't teach anything about financial education in high schools today. And that's just preparing our kids to fail. So there's a lot of really great stories in this book. Kiyosaki's preached it all along. And, you know, when you grow up scrappy, you know, where are you going to get your advice from?

So this thing's an ADD person's dream. The chapters are quick. There's a picture on every chapter. And we hit a lot of different things like write thank you notes, follow up, you know, things like that. Be charitable. So it's a lot of, we touch on a lot of different. things in there. It's doing really well. I encourage people to get it. I'm going to read it while here and that's it. That's it. That's it. Tim. Is there any like boom or is there anything fun coming?

Wow. Yay. You know, that's about it. This is typically where Josh will say, I'll take Josh's roll here. Well, Tim, thanks so much for being on the podcast. We really enjoyed having you. That's about it. All right, guys. Thank you all both. Thanks. Thanks for having me on. And I really appreciate you both y'all. Thank you very much. Tim, thank you. Thank you for coming on the show. Yes. Yes. Good luck for the blackjack table.

I appreciate that. Thank you so much. Bye, all. Bye. Bye. All right. And that was our show with Tim Shiner. Fantastic.

Did it live up to the hype, Mindy? I hyped it up a lot because I love this show. Oh, my goodness. I was so excited to talk to Tim. And you ask him a question and just blam. 20 minutes later, you get to ask another question. He has so much information in his head. And he's so willing to share it.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. He's one of the guys. I want to like jump on a plane, not today because I'm in Hawaii. But, you know, Norm, if I was in like, you know, Grace Harbor, Washington, I'd get on a plane and go just visit him because I want to learn what he's doing. I want to become more like him. I love kind of his mindset and it's kind of, you know, message of like, you know, put a why behind what you do. Like set those goals, like, you know, things like buying your kid a property when they're born to, you know, for the college thing. You know, everybody knows I love doing that.

And I don't know, just the Lamborghini. I don't want a Lamborghini, but I want a house and Hawaii. So maybe I got to set myself a goal of like when I buy X amount of properties, I can buy a house in Hawaii. I'm going to do it. I will come. I will selflessly volunteer to come and house it for you once you get that house in Hawaii. You are a selfish. I mean, selfless person.

All right. With that, I mean, that's pretty much our show. So as usual, guys, we would love if you'd leave us a rating and or review over in iTunes. Or if you're listening to Stitcher or even if you're on YouTube, give a thumbs up to this video if you're watching this on video. And you don't mind my shiny face. I mean like the, like when I started the recording today, I was in the shade. And then the sun came out. And now it's like, I actually am going to get sunburned because like for the last half hour of the interview today, like I just feel my skin like melting in the heat.

I'm like, oh, I should have put sunscreen on? Anyway, so I'm going to. Yes. Have you been a redhead your whole life? Because my dad's a redhead and he burns like crazy. Yeah. I've been a strawberry blonde most of my life. And then it turned brownie.

So now I'm like a strawberry brownie. Is that a thing? I don't know. All right. So let's get out of here. Mindy, you want to take us out? You got to say, The Bigger Fockets podcast,

this is Mindy signing off. That's what you have to say. But go ahead, what? Yes, I know. I listen. I want to thank you for letting me step into Josh's shoes today. Anytime. Josh, we'll be back next week.

He will be. He will be. So, well, take us out, Mindy. For the Bigger Pockets podcast, this is Mindy Jensen, signing off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to live. learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you're in the right place. Be sure to join

the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K. Copywriting is by Calicoe Content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included involves

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