BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 226: From D-Student to $400,000 in Annual Rental Property Cash Flow with David Osborn

Episode Date: May 11, 2017

What does true wealth look like? Is it simply money or something more? And how does one achieve that wealth? That’s the topic on today’s episode of The BiggerPockets Podcast, where we sit down with David Osborn, a highly successful real estate investor, agent, and New York Times Bestselling author from Austin, TX. This show is PACKED with incredible, life-changing knowledge, advice, and wisdom from someone who truly walks his talk. David covers everything from buying your first property, the exact “pass/fail” metrics he uses to evaluate potential deals, the importance of work/life balance, and SO much more! This is one episode you’ll want to listen to again and again! In This Episode We Cover: A little about David’s background How being lazy can actually work His rental portfolio How he’s managed to build his portfolio easily His advice to those who are still starting out The importance of hanging out with winners The three main things that he focuses on his life How he learns best The story behind “wealth can’t wait” A conversation on the definition of wealth What can be improved in the current curriculum How to know when enough is enough How to gain momentum in real estate David’s goals for the next 20 years And SO much more! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Instagram Account Josh’s Instagram Account Brandon’s Instagram Account Self Made Man Podcast with David as Guest BiggerPockets Podcast 108: Building a $350 Million Real Estate Empire Using the 10X Rule with Grant Cardone Carleton Sheets BiggerPockets Podcast 169: Using Hustle and Persistence to Build Wealth Through Real Estate with David Greene BiggerPockets Podcast 190: Building 61 Different Passive Streams of Income with Pat Hiban Gobundance Khan Academy Books Mentioned in this Show Set for Life by Scott Trench Wealth Can’t Wait by David Osborn Rich Dad’s CASHFLOW Quadrant by Robert Kiyosaki Real Estate Riches by Dolf de Roos Secrets of Power Negotiating by Roger Dawson The ONE Thing by Gary Keller and Jay Papasan As a Man Thinketh by James Allen Tweetable Topics: “It’s all about opportunity in life. So you won’t be ready for the opportunity unless you’re prepared.” (Tweet This!) “If you want to be a winner, you’ve got to hangout with winners.” (Tweet This!) “Wealth is not just really about money. It’s about an entire way of living. It’s a state of mind.” (Tweet This!) “The biggest risks in life is not taking risks.” (Tweet This!) Connect with David David’s Personal Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 226. But that's what I think wealth does for you too, man. It's just this journey of you earn it. You become a better person while you're earning it. You become stronger, more capable. And then you give it away. And then by giving it away, you become another person and you learn more and you move further along in life. We don't own any of stuff here on Earth that's just loan to us.

But the better steward we are of everything that's here while we're here, ultimately, I think, makes for a more interesting and fascinating life. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorkin House to the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host, Mr. Brandon Turner. What's up, man?

Josh Dorkin, how the heck are you? I am doing good, man. I'm doing really good. You know, I saw a picture of you on, what was it, Instagram the other day? You look like, you look like a GQ, like model. I don't know what that was. How much photoshopping did they have to do to get your face looking like that? I mean, they fixed a lot of the problems that are there.

Wow. You know, it's not bad. You looked, you look sharp. Thank you. Okay, you pulled the knife out of my back yourself. So I appreciate it. Yeah. By the way, follow me on Instagram or follow Bigger Pockets or follow Brandon.

We're all on Instagram. and it's fun to be there. But yeah, that was, did an interview for a local magazine here. Hopefully it's coming out. I don't want to name the magazine until I actually see it. I learned from my days in the entertainment business. You don't want to jinx it by telling everybody, go buy this when it comes out or go watch this and then you get cut.

And that happens all the time. Anyway, so it was for an article that's supposedly coming out about me in Bigger Pockets and the photographer was amazing. But yeah, yeah, it was pretty cool. Very cool. I looked okay. You looked okay? Not quite as, not quite as, as ugly as burly as you are, but, you know.

Did I just insult myself accidentally? Man, I knew when that happens. How's Hawaii? The trip's still going well? Everything's good. Everything's good. You know what hurts the most about surfing? Nobody talks about this.

Your nipples. Can I say that on the air? It's like, seriously, I get out from surfing and then I wore off. This is a family-friendly show. They're like, I'd have destroyed them. I even have a rash garden. I'm destroying them every day. Can you put on like, you know, doilies or whatever those are called?

I'm not even kidding. Yesterday when I went out, I took fabric tape and I like put like X's over both my eyeballs. Nicely done, Brandon. Nicely done. Yeah. I just don't like when a wave knocks me over and I'm underwater for, you know, 10 seconds. Like that fear of drowning is kind of scary.

It's kind of scary. But yeah, man, Newell, look, I'm glad things are going well. I'm off to have some. tomorrow on my hand finally. We talked about it last time. Thank you. I appreciate it. But, yeah, man, we got a cool show today. We definitely spend a little less time than normal on the fundamentals of real estate. But we really, really dive in on motivation and wealth. In general, like what is, what is it? It's not what is it. Yeah, it's not quite what people think it is. It's not quite what people think it is, at least in our guest, David, his definition. And I love his

definition of wealth. And I agree with it. I wholeheartedly. So we'll talk about that later. But before we do that, let's get to today's quick tip. All right, guys, today's quick tip. We recently updated Bigger Pocket so that you can do inline profile editing, which is really cool. So you don't have to go dig around to try and figure out how to update. All you do is go pull up your profile. And then there's little places where you can click edit and start to fill in the information about yourself.

This is really important because people on Bigger Pockets are looking for people like you. and if you do not have information about who you are, what you're looking for, what you've done, what you're trying to accomplish, they're not going to be able to network with you. And the whole point of building it, one of the keys to building a business in real estate is to build a strong network. And if you don't have a profile with all this information, you're completely missing out. So if you don't have one, jump on BiggerPockets today, biggerpockets.com, create a free account. If you do and you haven't filled it in, jump on the site and get that profile filled in. There are two kinds of real estate investors, those who have reviewed their insurance, and those who think that they have.

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That's nr-e-ig.com slash B-P-Pod. Most investors spend all their time talking about their high-level returns. But that's not the number that actually matters. What actually matters is what you keep after taxes, and that's where multifamily real estate quietly stands out. With built-in advantages like depreciation, the right deals can generate steady cash flow while reducing the tax drag. Bam Capital structures its multifamily investments around the

fundamentals, pairing tax efficiency with disciplined operators and a long-term approach. This isn't about chasing hype or guessing market timing. It's about building durable, tax-aware wealth over time. Learn more at biggerpockets.com slash bam. Do you ever notice how every passive investment somehow turns into a very active lifestyle, active spreadsheets, active phone calls, active stress? Here's a better question. What if you could buy brand-new construction homes, 10% below market value, and the best markets across the country, without making real estate your second job. That's exactly what rent to retirement does. They're a full-service, turnkey investment company, handling everything for you. In some cases, investors get 50 to 75%

of our down payment back at closing, plus interest rates as low as 3.75%. They've partnered with Bigger Pockets for over a decade, helping thousands invest smarter. If you want to do the same, visit BiggerPockets.com slash retirement to learn more. All right, guys, before we get into this thing, great show, as we talked about, This is show 226 of the Bigger Pockets podcast. You can check out the show notes of biggerpockets.com slash show 226. Otherwise, make sure if you're listening to the show and you love Bigger Pockets, you like it, you want to leave us a feedback, you want to leave a review.

Please do that on SoundCloud, Stitcher, on iTunes, wherever it is that you're listening. We really do appreciate all those ratings and reviews. With that said, let's get into today's show. Yeah, I know, Brandon, you've been talking about this guy for a while now. you've been talking about our guest. I know you guys have met up at an event and, you know, when you mentioned him and we, you know, I looked into who he was. I was, you know, blown away. I mean, this guy has done a lot, a lot, a lot. And, you know, not only has he done a lot, but his mindset, where he is in terms of kind of getting your head together, whether it be real

estate for business, you name it, just life in general. It's fantastic. He reminded me a lot of the show we did with Grant Cardone. I'm very, very, very motivating. And if you've listened to the podcast we did with Cardone, this show is, I think, on the level with that. Anyway, I know you wanted to bring him in, so go for it, man. All right. Well, so anyway, so like Josh said, David is somebody that I've looked up to for a long time now.

I've learned a lot from him, like a ton from him. He recently wrote a book called Wealth Can't Wait, and I read that. I thought it was fantastic. And again, we just had to get him here on the show. So anyway, David, David Osborne, won't we get him in the show? Josh, you want to actually welcome him in? All right, David. Welcome to the show, man.

It's good to have you here. Outstanding to be here, Josh. Thanks for having me. That's sure. Yeah, it should be fun. So, you know, David, you're somebody that I've looked up to quite a while. I actually listened to a podcast you did a couple years ago.

I think it was over on, maybe a self-made man, I think. Yeah, yeah, Mike Dillard. Yeah, Mike Dillard. And I was kind of blown away by that, by your story. And so ever since then, I've been like, man, we've got to get David on the podcast. And it's been, uh, yeah, it's been a while, but I'm super excited for this. So why don't we start very beginning of your story. He doesn't shut up about this for like three weeks.

I've been a little excited about this, right? I mean, you guys have a great following, and I've heard nothing but excellent things about deeper pockets. So what a great is one of the ones I've been looking forward to. All right. So let's do this thing. Bigger pockets, bigger pockets. Close enough.

We got to redo that. We can't have it. Sorry, sorry. We can't have them say that. Come on. All right. Well, you thinker pockets leads to deeper pockets. That does it.

Right. You know, like deeper pockets. Like there was a gangster that used to roll around with a roll. He had a deep pocket and he kept a roll of money. And I think his name was Al Capone. Like he had like $100, like thousands of $100 bills. And when you follow the Bigger Pockets podcast, eventually you'll have to have deeper pockets to keep all your money and you can walk around like a gangster. Well played, David.

And that's actually the genesis of the name Bigger Pockets because a buddy of mine did a movie. And he's reaching in for a big fat role and he's like, damn, I got to get some big. bigger pockets. So it all ties in Al Capone, my buddy, yeah, we're on there. We saved it. We're good. We're good. So let's go to the beginning of your story. I mean, your real estate, let's go real estate and then real estate investing. So you started as an agent. Is that correct? Correct. My mom was an agent. So I started off. I never thought I'd go into real estate. My mom was a real estate agent. I was broke because I had hacked around the world for two years. And I came back from that in debt. And she said, why did you come work for me? And I said, no, I don't want to go into real estate. But

You know, I got, well, then again, I got no money and I got a credit card dealt, so I better come work for you for a little bit. And next thing you know, a buddy of mine called me up, said, hey, I want to buy a house. I took them around. We drank some beer, looked at a bunch of houses, and I made $5,000. I'm like, wow, maybe this is a good career. Nice. That's all being a real estate entails, right? Agent entails. It's just driving. It's easy when you have a friend and someone you like. I mean, it becomes a grind as you get bigger, obviously. The hardest thing about real estate is finding the client. Serving the client's not that hard. It's just finding them. But after doing that for like three years, you begin to

see like, well, okay, I don't want to do this for another 40 years, right? I'd meet people that are, I've been a real estate agent for 50 years. Like, wow, that's really sad. I'm sorry. But some people love it. My mom's been doing it for entire life and she loves it, but it wouldn't work for me. You know, so like for me, I'm like, okay, where do you make the real money in real estate? That's by owning real estate. So I'd see these people that were semi-retired or working if they wanted to or not. And I'd say, well, how did you get there from the real estate side? And they'd say, well, I bought a bunch of rentals or I bought a multifamily or then I was pretty quickly tuned into the fact that owning real estate is way better than selling real estate.

So how long after being an agent did this, you know, whole thing come to you? You know, it's pretty quick. I was kind of always ambitiously lazy. So if you understand that personality type, that means you're willing to work really, really hard to get an outcome where you can be really lazy. I still haven't known a lazy. Yes, I'm super still kind of committed, but I always just want to be able to do what I want. So when you're asking the question, what does it take to be financially free?

and you're not Steve Jobs and you're not Bill Gates and you're not a surgeon and you're not, you know, somebody that's going to design the next great breakthrough for humanity. But you're in real estate, you're like, well, there's a lot of really, really rich people in real estate. In fact, there's more millionaires made in real estate than any other space in the universe. And how do they get there? They buy stuff, you know, so that's pretty quick. I remember I bought my first house in 95 and I still own it to this day. Um, 1999.

And it's been an incredible rental deal. I bought it for 77 grand. I moved into it for a while. And I refighted in 2000. took out 60 grand and bought three more houses with it. I still own all of those houses. And today that $20,000 I put down on that house has turned into $500,000 in equity and $2,800 net cash flow a month after that was 95. So what do we? Is that 20, 30 years now, 31 years? Wow. That's awesome.

20 years. 21 years, $20,000 into half a million in equity and $30,000 a year, say. By buying one house and all. And 30K, you said, a year. Yeah, yeah, it's 4,000 growth rental income, which nets out at about $2,800 a month because they're now debt-free. I put them all on 15-year notes. They're all paid for. I keep that as an example.

That's like a little pocket of what could be accomplished. Yeah. And it's 30,000-year passive income after 21 years on a $20,000 investment. And I calculated the ROI on that. It's basically not counting the cash flow, just the $20,000 into $500,000 is something like 17% a year. And if anyone said to me today, I'll give you 17% a year. year for the next 20 years, I'd take every dollar I own if it was guaranteed and put it into it. And that's

real estate. That's not even knowing what I was doing. That's just buying one house, living in it for a couple of years, deciding I wanted to go rent an apartment and renting it out, turning it into a rental from that day forward. One of them is in Austin, so I got lucky there. Obviously, Austin's appreciated, but the other three I bought her in Lubbock. So that's not a great place. They got flat appreciation. So it's a great example of overall blended. I mean, the ones I bought in Lubbock for 80 are probably worth 100 now. So it's 20 plus years later. Maybe they're worth 110. Now, the one I own in Austin, which I bought for 77, it's worth today probably 280. So, you know, that teaches the value of location.

If I were smart, I'd have just bought four in Austin instead of the three extra in Lovick, but I didn't. That's what I was going to ask you. I was going to ask you about that. Yeah, the, the markets. Like, how much do you look at markets when you look in real estate? I mean, you know, would you, do you still buy in areas like Lubbock or do you only buy an appreciating markets?

Look, I'm a, I told you, I'm ambitiously lazy. I was a D student. Like I got out of college with a 2.3. I'm not that bright. I'm street bright, but I'm not super intellectual. So for me, what makes the most sense is sort of C class properties, C plus, not C minus, if I could buy a place for 80 grand, rent it out for, say, 850 or 950 to a good, hard working blue collar family that never wants to own a house. To me, that's my sweet spot. And I have, today I have about 95 single family rentals. And I would say 90% of those are in blue collar neighborhoods, great rentals. And I bought on average for probably, I bought on average for probably 40 or 50 grand. today they're probably worth on average 80. And I did a lot of sweat equity where we rehab and we might buy something for 60, put 10 in it and then it's worth 90. You know, we're not killing it anymore.

We were killing it, obviously like everyone in 10, 11, 12, even up through 13. But the last four years has just been okay. It's not been great. But it's been overall, it's just a portfolio that generates me 400,000 free cash flow a year, whether I get out of bed in the morning or not. That's awesome. Got it. So overall, I was trying to kind of put all the numbers together. So you have a had that first deal that became all these other properties. You've obviously acquired lots of other properties throughout Texas. It sounds like potentially other places. So how many deals have you done from a buy and hold perspective? So buy and hold, the most I've had is what I have right now. I mean, I might have been up to 100, but it stays around 90 to 110, Josh. And the reason for that

is that I call the herd. So, you know, I still do, I did nine last year. My goal was 25. I'm going to try to do 25 this year. All of it's leveraged out through people. But for instance, I might have one I think was a killer deal in Indianapolis. I think I'm in about 10 states right now. But and then you own it and people keep tearing out the water heater. It just keeps breaking. And then you run the numbers at the end of the year. You're negative 10 grand.

I'm like, get rid of that one. Just shoot it in the head, please. So we call it, Cullen the herd. I love it. And that's why I can't get higher. I'm trying to end the year 125, but I'm also more practical in nature. And if they don't make sense, I get rid of them. So the most I've ever held is what I hold right now 100.

But, you know, I've always had three. I've had rental since 95. I've always owned some. And I only got really big into the space in the last crash. I mean, there was a point, I think 2011. I mean, I was late, but I looked at my buddy and I was like, dude, we could buy anything right now. Like, there's not a thing we could buy that's going to go bad. Yeah.

It was obvious to me around 10. So I went 11. So I went into all in and 12. And we actually did hundreds and hundreds of homes a year because we were on the bulk buying program from, oh, what was that? Now I've already forgotten it. Awkwin and different lists. We're selling huge. So we'd buy 20 at a time.

We'd sell 16 of them. and we'd keep four, stuff like that. Can you explain that a little bit? Because I, you know, 90 to 100 properties, 110 in the portfolio at any given time, but you're also talking about acquiring properties in bulk at, you know, 100 at a time, give or take. So what does that look like? Can you kind of clarify?

Were you flipping those? I mean, what exactly did you do? Well, it's also starting from where people begin. And the thing, Josh, you know, as you know and Brandon is, it's all about opportunity in life, right? So you won't be ready for the opportunity unless you're prepared. And the way you're prepared is buying the single family home. So the reason I was prepared to buy 20, 30, 40 at a time, in fact, 350, I think in 2013, was because I'd done that one in 95 and then I bought the ones in Lubbock and I just kind of

built my portfolio over time. So coming into the crash, I might have had eight or nine properties, it was all. But I knew enough about how to buy a hold or flip real estate. I'd probably done at that point 20, 30 flips. Usually as a financier, but financing them and knowing. what's going on in the project at the same time. So I put in the money, but I don't do any of the work. And then I met a company and they wanted to invest my money and they promised me like a 20 plus percent return. And what were they doing? They were buying bulk homes. Like they bought 2,000 a

year. So they were buying tons. And so I put a million bucks with them. Now this is 2009-ish. So by then I'd made pretty good money because I'm also a broker owner, the largest broker owner inside Keller Williams. So we have a ton of real estate offices and they do really well. So we gave him like a million or two bucks and and they did what they said they gave me a good return it was like 20% in about a year something like that they were flipping all these homes so i said to them i want to buy a part of your company and they said okay we'll sell you 25% and then they started showing me all their numbers and what they hadn't disclosed to me is they owed somebody eight million bucks so i was like well that kills the whole deal and i also said to them i'd like to buy and hold let's not buy and flip that's

exhausting let's keep the best ones of all these homes were buying and they were like and then i realized why they couldn't because they owed $8 million. So they had to keep flipping to pay that mortgage. So I just said, screw it. I'll just get into it in a smaller way by myself. By now they had taught me kind of a lot of what they knew. So I went ahead and started buying bulk from basically from the government and the government agencies that were selling them, Fannie Mae, I guess.

And so you had to go through a whole process, sign affidavits, you know, all kinds of things to get into this pool. But then they just send you lists every month. And so that was back in the boom times and they'd send you out a list of maybe, I don't know, 10,000 properties or 1,000 properties, just all kinds of different lists. There's a lot of different vendors doing it. Ockwin was a big one back in the day, but now they got in trouble the other day. They were on the front of USA Today for illegally foreclosing. And we just analyzed the homes all across the country and we try to find good real estate relationships, good local people that

could tell us what was up with the property and we'd buy and there'd be a tape. So you could buy the northwest or the southwest or Florida and we'd buy 20, 30 at a time. And then we'd turn around and flip, you know, most of them and keep one, the ones that rented. Back then, I was looking for $2 in rent for every $100 in value, meaning if I bought something for $40,000, I wanted $800 a month in rental value. Can you get that today? Yeah, it was killer, man. It was killer. And sometimes you'd have to put $10,000 into them. But sometimes you get a house for $20,000 that would rent for $700. It was just unbelievable, right? So, and there was a lot of work, too, and don't, it wasn't easy. And you'd have a bunch of junk. You would lose money, too. So if you bought 20 homes, you'd

sell 10 pretty quick and make some really good money. You think, man, this is the best pool I ever bought. But then five of them would drag all your profits down because you know, just they'd be destroyed. And then somewhere in the middle, you'd find your keepers. So that was the process. But I wouldn't have able to do any of that if I hadn't been prepared. And the preparation part was being in rental space already, then investing, co-investing with a big company that was doing it. And then, of course, all the books I've read and podcasts I've listened to and just constantly educating yourself is really the key. And that's why the guys listen to this are smart and they're on track and even a dumb guy like me that was a D student could become massively successful and

financially free if you study what matters and what matters is how do you make money in real estate it's not rocket science just read the books and uh listen to the podcast and then take action man first of all you talk a thousand miles a minute which is awesome the energy is amazing and like you like it just oozes out of you which is fantastic let let's slow it down though a second yes let's go back to that first deal you bought the first deal you're an agency you generally knew what you were doing. You gave us the numbers earlier. How do you know now what to do on the second deal and the third deal and the fourth? How did you know when it was time to buy that next deal? You know, how did you know it was time to start to scale and move on and things like that?

Great question. So I studied basically. Again, you know, I was this terrible student, but then I learned, you know, I think what I didn't like about school was they teach you stuff that I didn't think made any sense. It wasn't useful for me to know how to dissect a frog, for instance. Like I'm never going to walk around. Hey, let's have a party in Dysak Frogs. But once I got in a business, I was like, wow, if I read this book by Carlton Sheets, I think, wrote that book. Was it trading wealth, residential real estate investments? And there was a bunch of junk in it, but there was some really good stuff too.

So I'm like, wow, I sucked all that up. And then, of course, cash flow quadrant, Kiyosaki, all those books. Dolph de Roos wrote a book. So I just started sucking up every book I could. So I've got that first rental. And my original strategy, Josh, was just to own 10 rentals and have them paid for free and clear. Like, you know, like that seemed logical to me. So I'll put them all on 15-year notes, which is why these four homes were on 15-year notes.

But then pursuing that pursuit of study, there was a guy teaching a seminar like a mastermind, Dr. Fred Gross. And there was a bunch of high net worth real estate people. So I went and signed up for that. And that was $8,000 or whatever a year, which to me back then seemed like a lot of money, but I did it anyway. And in that group, a guy taught me the power of leverage. And this guy from Pennsylvania, Bob Boland, I think his name was, actually from Michigan. He taught me the power of, he's like, no, you want leverage. You want leverage on your property.

You want to have positive leverage. And positive leverage is when by adding a loan, you make more money than you did without the loan. So in other words, if your rate of return with no loan was 10% on the property, and then you put 50% leverage, and now your rate of return on the cash still invested is 15%. That's way better than the 10%. So I learned all this from a seminar, from guys smarter than me that I was just willing to study under because now I was finally motivated. motivated to learn. And so once I got that, I kept that little subset of homes for an example, but then I started buying stuff and putting leverage on it. And then I went to where I'd do 30-year mortgage instead of the 15-year because I'd get a positive rate of return on my investment.

You know, so it really was I owned that home from 95. I don't think I refied it until 2000 or maybe 99. So that's when I was learning that stuff. So I went and took out money from it, bought the four more homes as a study on how to use positive leverage to increase my rate of return. And ultimately what you learn, Josh and Brandon, is your whole net worth is going to be determined by how much return you get on your assets, right? So if you're making 10%, your wealth doubles every 7.2 years. If you're making 15%, which is my target, your wealth doubles every 4.8 years. So if you have a million bucks and you make it, you know, five years later, if you're making 10%, you're worth 1 million 8. But if you're making 15%, you're already at 2 million.

And you compound that over a bunch of years, and it makes a huge difference. So again, you said, how was I ready? I just started studying. And the more, you know, people don't take action because they're fearful. And they don't take action when they're fearful because they don't know what to do. But if you study and read and you talk to people that are doing it, it becomes less fearful. And then it's easier to take action. People still get held back by a lack of action.

And that's probably the biggest hold up for people winning in life. But at the same time, with more knowledge, at least you have a greater likelihood of taking action. So you can just go out there and you soak it up. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Because, yeah, so when people, when people feel st. a lot of times. They don't know what to do next.

Like generally my advice is go read a book, right? And then like put that into action. Like nobody's, nobody's ever like confused that you know how to drive a car. I mean, if you're 30 years old and you've been driving for 15 years, not like you're, you're always, oh, I don't know how to turn. It's all natural.

It's all just some kind of going to think about it. He still hasn't figured it out. I am a good driver. But you know, like, when you know something just like internally, like you got it, like nobody questions it. You don't have fear. You have fear of things you don't understand. So if you have fear about something,

you're scared to jump into something. just learn more about it and you'll naturally will just be able to just do it. In fact, I was just talking with my buddy with David Green yesterday, who I know you and I both know. And we're talking about how like we make offers like driving down the phone like, you know, talking to Syria on our phone, we'll make an offer on a car. I mean, on a house like while like not even barely doing, I mean like while driving and while doing our, you know, whatever in the car singing to Madonna or something. Like it's so naturally it doesn't like take any work.

There's no fear involved. Well, you get that courage over time where you almost know when it's going to work. or not, but if you go back in time, if I was in my 20s or 30s, like I used to be, because now I'm in my 40s, but all I would do is listen to the bigger podcast, you know, podcast. That's what I would do, the bigger pockets podcast. And the reason I would do that is, like, it's so great today. It's better than it's ever been. Like, who even likes to read? I mean, I read because I know it's good for me, not because I love to read, right? And, and, but now with podcasts, you used to have to get cassette tape. So you guys that are younger, like in my day, I'd have to order from

Nightingale Conan, and they would send me a, you know, the Secrets of Power Negotiations, by Roger Dawson, I'd have to remember to bring it with me, stick it in my car and then listen to it over and over again, and never could go back to a good part. But now with podcasts, you can just listen to stuff constantly, and that's what I would do. And this day, I still listen to podcasts all the time. Not as much as I was when I was up and coming. I mean, I probably listened to at least once a week now, but back in the day, I'd listen to them once a day, maybe two or three times a day, because that's what it takes is that knowledge getting in you. And then you've got to be around people that take action because that's the next hurdle is the fear. And you said it's second nature.

You know, Brendan, it's second nature to me. But I remember when it wasn't. I remember, like, sweating out and being nervous. Now I buy stuff side unseen. Just like, I get a P&A, I get a numbers. I look at it. Do I trust the guy that sent it to me? Yes, yes.

Boom, buy it if it meets my numbers. But back in the day, man, you'd buy a rental. You're like, oh, my gosh, I'm so nervous. This could go wrong and you're terrified. I could lose $10,000, whatever it is. But as you take more and more action, become second nature to you. All right. So, David, what do you recommend for people who are just getting started out that are struggling

to get that first deal? But besides just learning, you know, reading more books and listening, any actionable tips on people, you know, just getting out there and doing your first deal. You got to learn and then you got to be around people that take action. The biggest thing, you know, Eagles don't fly with ducks and pigeons, right? So if you want to be around winters, you got to be around winners. You got to find a way to be in a circle of people that take action. And the only way you get in there is you earn your way in there. So it's not okay just to be like in there and not doing anything.

You got to be around people where taking action is second nature. Today, I wasn't even that, you know, I wasn't much of an athlete in the school either. I was average, you know, people wouldn't pick me first. They'd pick me in the middle. But today I hang around with a bunch of athletic people, and I work out harder and do more stuff than I've ever done before because that's just what the people I hang out with do. And then deals, it's the same way.

You want to hang out with people that do deals. David Green's a great example. Here's a guy that comes, you know, has every reason not to take action, got a steady job, making good money, doesn't need anything. And yet he gets out there and takes massive action he achieves. If you hang out with a guy like David or Cush or just different guys like I did, I hung out with these real estate people from this mastermind. mind and everyone with them was doing stuff. So if you get together with them on a regular basis,

they're like, yeah, I did a deal. I did a deal. And you're like, I still didn't do a deal. Eventually, you're either going to do a deal or get out of that group and drop out. Sometimes that's painful. You've got to shed some friends. You got to shed some people that aren't up to stuff and it can be difficult. And I had a few difficult situations myself where people are like, you treat me like, I'm not important to you anymore. I'm like, it's not that at all, man. You are very important to me, but I'm choosing to live a big. And if you're not choosing big, then it's going to be hard for me to spend a lot of time with you because I'm trying to hang out with people that are also choosing big.

Yeah. Well, let's talk about that real quick. Yeah, I was going to say, what do you mean by big? So, I mean, like, you and I are both part of that, you know, the Gobundance thing. Like, you're actually one of the founders, right, of Go Abundance. But one of the themes of that is live life big, right? Grab life big. What does that mean in terms of, like, tangible things?

Like, how does somebody do that? So, you know, you just got to be around people that have chosen a mission. You know, you guys have the bigger pockets podcast. You're killing it. You're changing lives. Nicely done. And that's what you want. want to do. I mean, it's that simple. I'm not, I mean, you want to be around like when I was in

Keller Williams. I got in early. I started hanging out with all the guys that were winning at the highest level. I started hanging out with the guys that were open in offices. And if you open up an office and you failed, I didn't have anything to learn from you. So I go hang out with a guy that was open up an office and doing better than me. And then the same in real estate. So how did I find that? I went to this mastermind. There was a guy Pat Hybin there. At that time, Pat Hybin was on his way to doing six million a year in GCI sales. That's a lot of real estate. He sold a billion dollars worth of real estate. And I locked into that guy and I chose him to be my brother from another mother. And today we're still best buds.

And he bought a bunch of real estate. He's retired. He makes 40 plus thousand a month. And he's got all these different 40 plus streams of income that he created while he was generating all that cash flow. Latched onto the guys that were making stuff happen. And that's what you need to do. Now, what you have to understand about latching on to people is they'll only let you latch on if you bring value. And the way you bring value and to this day, like I called a mastermind here in Austin of seven people worth over 100 million.

And the people in the room were average net worth over 100 million. So how do you pull those people together where you create incredible value? So I thought, what could create value for these people that they'd be willing to spend four hours with me, mastermining? And I found a unique tax opportunity and an investment opportunity, something called conservation easements. And I had a brilliant tax attorney that I'd all listened to twice who'd explained it to me. And I said, you know, I called him first, hey, would you be willing to come to Austin? Does this date work? And then I emailed everybody, hey, if you've ever wanted to learn about conservation easements, I'd like to get together, will you spend the first two hours,

I was listening to Chris Graham talk about conservation easements and then two hours masterminding. I emailed nine people, seven showed up, right? So you can't just latch on to people and not add value. It's all about adding tremendous value to people's lives and then they'll want to be around you. So that's what I showed up for for Pat early in my career. And that's how I started getting mentoring and teaching from other people.

I love that. Yeah, it's great. It's great. We had Pat on the show. It was show 190 and we've talked about David Green a couple times. he was here on show 169. Anyone wants to listen to those. Go to Biggerpockets.com slash show 190 or Biggerpockets.com slash show 169. So yeah, this is great. I mean, we're really diving in on mindset here. And I think it's super, super important. I just want to go back to some tactical stuff before we're going to continue onward.

What are you looking for in deals today? You know, are you still buying those $80,000 properties? or are you buying multis, you buying bigger, you buying commercial? What are you focused on? Yes, all of the above. I have three main things I do with my life. I look at opportunity, talent, and I create a vision for my life. So to the deals specifically, so that's one of the three, is I look at deals. I just looked at one a minute ago for an anytime fitness franchise.

A guy wants to borrow some money for me to buy four franchises. What I look for is I have my number. So my number is 15 percent, Josh. So I'm trying to make 15 percent on all my deals. Now, do I always? Absolutely not. I fall short of that number, but that's the number I've got to. engraved in my target sites. So my target is 15%. That's what I'm looking for. And if it's a

commercial deal, if it's a, now the one thing I would say is that's on my holds. On my flips, I target 25%. So when I'm funding these flippers or when I'm flipping my own properties, I'm looking at making 25% cash on cash. And if I'm getting a hold, I'm looking to make 15%. So what would change my mindset on that? Well, here, here's one way I've massively changed my mindset. So I have a flipper that I really trust here in Austin. They build homes from the ground up. His name's Corey Older. He's a great kid. And recently I decided I want more exposure to Austin real estate, right? So we were building a fourplex to flip. And we'd just done a duplex. We'd made 20% cash on cash on an, you know, annually over 18 months. So obviously I'd fallen short of

my goal. But instead of paying the taxes, we decided to 1030 want it into a fourplex. And I told Corey, I want to hold that fourplex. Now, when you run the numbers on that fourplex, it's terrible. I mean, it's like a one or two percent cash on cash. But if Austin keeps appreciating it a half percent a month, which is six percent a year, which is done for the last three to four years, that property will actually total return 16 percent with the kind of 75 percent leverage we're putting on it. So my goal is to build more exposure to Austin real estate. Ultimately, flipping is just a job.

It's just cash flow to fund your bills. And you should flip to make money to fund your deals. But holding is where all the net worth is. If you go look at the 400 billionaires on the Forbes 400, or maybe it's 500, they all own stuff. They all own assets. The only reason they got on that list is owning stuff. So flipping is not enough. You've got to buy and hold assets.

So I'm going to keep this fourplex. I'm going to bank on some appreciation. I can live on the 1% to 2% return. And in 20 years, I think that thing's going to do incredible. In one or two or three years, if we have a downturn, I might regret it. But I think I have the staying power to hang in there. And I'm not going to over leverage it. So therefore, I could sustain.

stay in a downturn. And if everything looked like it was falling apart, I could probably get out with a 10 or 15% loss. Now, the meet of 20 years ago would never have looked at that deal. But the media today is trying to find places to hold value for the long term. I think Austin, Texas is an incredible place to do it. And so that's why I'm doing that deal with them. And we're doing also a sixplex development that has two lots out front. We're going to flip out of the lots and keep the sixplex. So I just kind of added that one in recently. I made the decision 48 hours ago that that was a green light go. So that's the kind of thing I'm doing. now as I'm increasing and adding value. So I look at deals on if I'm buying in Mississippi,

we own a bunch of properties. I'm not going to bet on any appreciation. So it has to purely make my 15% on cash flow. And understand to all the listeners, if I say 15%, I might hit 11 sometimes. I may hit 7. I might hit negative. You never really hit your target, but I'm obsessed with that target. So it gives me a standard to evaluate businesses by. And even this this anytime fitness franchise I looked at just before this call, this podcast, I could run the numbers. I was like, I'm a 12% man, I can't, I can't see this working. It's too high risk. There's not a lot of collateral unless you can figure out a way to get me up to 15,

then I might be interested. That's awesome. So it gives me a way of saying no without just saying no, I don't like you. I'm out. It's like it's a target. Well, criteria are so important for anything that you do, right? I mean, that's just as essential, especially for new people, right? I mean, it's easy for somebody who's been doing it as long as you have,

your emotions don't really guide you that much. But for somebody who's getting started, there's this massive emotional component that comes along with the first few deals. And so by having that criteria, by setting it and saying, hey, these are the numbers. I'm sticking to these. It makes you not overbid for stuff. It makes you not overpay for contractors. It makes you, you know, keeps you accountable to your numbers. Even though you may lose that on deals, you know, you're less like an F up, right?

Absolutely. That's it. You got to be cold with your, with you, if I found in the past when I allowed emotional, to get involved, I made a lot of mistakes. The minute I put my criteria, my targets that I'm not willing to bend on into my digital analysis, I started making great decisions. So you've got to have that. That takes all the emotion out of it.

I love that. I know when I'm looking at rental properties, I say this on the, I do a webinar once a week here on bigger pockets and I teach people kind of what I've been doing. Anyway, I have the numbers. I want 12% cash on cash, but I also want at least $100 per month per unit and I want 20% equity because I know at the end of the day, that should give me more than 15% or around there, right? So I have those three metrics. Yeah, if I follow those three metrics, it takes the emotion out, like you said. Well, it's brilliant about it. And the simplicity of what

you said is you've got that so ingrained in you, you don't even have to question it. It's all right there. And that's what your listeners need to do early on. They need to have their rules and stick by those rules. And then whatever comes across their desk, oh, this works out at 8% next. You move on. Don't fall in love with a deal, man. Never love anything that doesn't love you back. And deals don't love you back. So I like it. I like that. Yeah. Well, cool. Hey, let's shift, Let's shift gears a little bit here, and we're going to get to talking about wealth building in general, talking about your book a little bit. Before we get there, I want to hit today's random five. It's time for it.

It's time. It's time. It's time. The random five. All right, question number one in the random five. Let's see, what foreign language would you most like to learn and why? That's a great question. I think Spanish, I'm actually all my goal set to learn Spanish this year, and it's just so darn useful.

I mean, I'm right here in Texas. and my guy that cuts my yard talks to me all the time. I don't know what he says. The nanny looks after my kids, talks to me. I don't really understand what she says. So Spanish is the most practical for me. If I was younger, I'd have said Russian because that's where the pretty girls are, but I'm not younger, so that's off.

All right. Next question. Do you listen to the voicemail or do you just call the person back? I never listen to the voicemail. It's annoying for me when they leave me messages. I don't listen to voicemails ever. I think, Josh, if I call you, you and you see I called, you know I wanted to talk to you. That's enough. Yeah, it's pretty much it.

Nice. How do you learn best? Listening, watching, reading, doing. Doing, absolutely doing. Secondly, listening. He's a D student. He doesn't learn at all. Yeah, exactly. So true. Let's see. Who would you fire? A poor performer, that's a great person or a great performing that you disliked as a person. If it's just whether I like it or not, I definitely keep the great performer. I don't need to like you. In fact, one of the mistakes people make is they hire people they like and that's a huge mistake.

But if they had poor values and they were untrustworthy, low integrity and I couldn't count on their truth, even if they were an incredible performer, I'd fire them immediately. So in answer to that, you should hire people you don't like. Because, you know, if you hire people you like, we're outgoing people. We're driven. If I hired my person to manage my books, who's somebody who's out there and super social they probably aren't going to be able to do my books because bookkeepers got to sit there and be silent and kind of focused and we might consider that boring they probably don't but that's

you know the mistake people make is they only hire people they like and then their business in their life becomes a disaster because they got a bunch of people can do the same thing there you go that's exactly why josh and i work so well together all right well that's across guys good good number number five you're the best buddy thanks josh and now you're talking all right number four five of the random five. What job in your company or in your business could somebody not pay you enough to do? Like you just wouldn't. Oh my gosh. We just talked about it. Votekeeping. I can't, you know, bookkeeping. All right, how about this? Being the guy that reads all the legal documents, that drives me crazy. I have a general counsel. I give them everything and I never read anything.

And they send it back to me with edits and I still don't read it. So I just, I hate reading legal documents and I hate adding up all the books, paying the bills, all that stuff. I leave that to other people smarter than me. But I do get reports on a regular maces. That's one of my criteria. And I look at my financial reports religiously. And I have them on Google Drive, which is probably not safe from a hacker point of view, but from a point of view of me waking up at 3 o'clock in the morning

saying what's going on with that property that we owned in Indianapolis, I can go look it up and see that they've got it on the market because the guy keeps tearing the copper out of the wall and at least we're trying to sell it. We're only going to lose 30 grand on it. So that's the, I have all of that available to me 24 hours a day unless it hasn't been updated.

There we go. All right. As well, I was going to shift gears however over the talking about wealth building in general right real estate's a great way to build wealth but it's not necessarily the only way but it just in general uh you publish a book called wealth can't wait which i know you've been writing for a number of years now to you tell us what you mean by that term wealth can't wait and what's this book about it's been the hardest thing i've ever done it really has been hard so i wrote this book uh when my dad was dying of cancer my dad was a soldier green beret and he got cancer and it killed him over three years and i was sitting with him one day thinking to myself you know he's going to take a lot of stories with him and he was a good storyteller

much, much better than me, but I said to myself, I'm not going to get these stories back. Like, what I remember is all I'll have of him. So I thought, well, what happened if something happened to me? I got a young daughter at the time. Now I've got a young daughter and a young son. What would they know of me? So that's where I began the process of writing this book. And it sounds easy, right? I'm going to write a book. But oh, my Lord, it is hard. It's not the writing that's that hard. It's the editing it and putting it all together and making it make sense. So here I am eight years later. We just hit New York Times bestseller list number four. Nice.

And I'm super proud of it. it and it's been a massive journey. But I'm proud of the book. And what I didn't want to put out was crap. So when we were editing it and re-editing it, and I was reading it for the 12th or 13th time. Now, keep in mind, I'm a D student. Imagine having to read the same book 12 times, even if you wrote it. But finally they put it together. I'm like, you know, I'm proud of that. That's a good book. It would teach people. It would teach my son. It would teach my daughter what it takes to be successful. And wealth, as you guys both know, I'm sure, is not really just money. It's about an entire way of living. It's a state of mind. It's physical health. It's having the

right mindset as being a can do purse, it's not being a problem bringer, but being a solution bringer. And there's a lot of traps to wealth when we discuss all that in the book. But really, anyone could pick up this book and it would take them further on their career. That's awesome. That's awesome. We actually just released a book as we are speaking to you this week called Set for Life by Scott Trench who works for us. And it's very similar. It's all about, you know, taking people who are working a nine to five job and teaching them steps to take to build wealth. And I love the topic. This is something that is a passion for me because I really feel like, you know,

the education system is really broken down and does not do a good job of helping people. Not even building wealth. I mean, how do I buy a house? How do I open a bank account? I mean, little things that we all have to do, but we could sit there and figure out, you know, geometry all day long, which, you know, certainly is going to help certain people. but I think learning what money is and how it works should probably be prioritized. I'll order set for life and I'll go further and totally agree with you.

I think our education system, not in all cases, but in many cases is disgraceful. It doesn't prepare people for the world that it is today. Now there's a lot of great schools. There's a lot of great teachers. I don't want to throw everyone on the bus. But people aren't taught about wealth. They're not talk about mindset. They're not talk about initiative.

And you can't come out and get a factory-based job anymore. You've got to have initiative. You've got to have put spot. You've got to have like willingness to get after. it and it's not that hard. In fact, it makes life more fun when you live life that way, and they don't teach any of it, which is probably why I got thrown out of three high schools. And that's the stuff you need to be successful in real estate too. I mean, in particular, I mean, it is very much an entrepreneurial endeavor no matter what you're doing.

If you're buying one house and that's all you want to do or if you want to go crazy and buy thousands of them, you know, it doesn't matter. I mean, you have to have that mindset. And the mindset is not taught. It's not taught. You know, the teachers, how are the teachers going to teach? it, man. They got that job in many cases, you know, for safety, for security to maybe, you know, help raise kids or whatever their reasons are. They're not in it because they made massive success in life about, and they're financially free. In fact, they're probably scared of success. So on that, no, what would you do? Let's say you are the secretary of what do, what do they call it, like, education, right? Like, what would you do? Shoot me in the head. Okay, let's say you just had

all the power to create a curriculum for a school, right, that you were in charge of this high school and you were going to create the curriculum. What would you do? My kid is in a school called Acton Academy run by Jeff Sandifer and you can look it up. And the whole concept of this school is the kids are self-paced. She's elementary kid. She's seven years old. They have a certain number of things they have to look at on Khan Academy. They have to do their own projects. They have to get all this stuff done. And they get five Eagle bucks a week. If they don't get the five Eagle bucks, they got to sit at a desk all week the following week. Otherwise, they can go sit on a beanbag. They can work anywhere. They're not told what subjects to work on.

they just got to get the work done by the end of the semester. So I'm putting my money where my mouth is with my kids and I'm putting them in an environment. So that's what I would create more of a self-responsibility environment, not sitting in a classroom for an hour. They call them desk schools. Like, desk schools are where the kids have to sit at a desk and learn a certain subject for an hour. How natural is that? Like, life's not like that unless you want to be a drone. You know, life is about using your wits to figure out what you want to do and then learning the material you need to learn to get you where you want to go.

that's what they should be teaching kids from age seven. Imagine if kids were taught that from seven and what the kind of contribution they could make to the world, they'd come out on fire. One of them might be a hairstylist, one of them might be a surgeon, one of them might be an entrepreneur, but they would have already had this deeply ingrained concept

of if it's going to be, it's up to me, and I need to get after it. And they wouldn't be victims. They wouldn't be blaming everybody for all the problems in the world. They just get after their problems and solve them. And that's what we need in the world, and that's what I think.

So if I had a school system, I just free it up. man, I'd open it up. Make chaos with order. Very cool. There are two kinds of real estate investors, those who have reviewed their insurance, and those who think that they have.

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and support our show by saying you heard. heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's Indeed.com slash rookie. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, Indeed is all you need. I dig it too. Let's go back to the wealth topic. You know, your definition of wealth encompasses not just money. It's life. It's quality of life. It's things like that. Why is that important? I mean, you know, a lot of people are just like, hey, you know, I got a good safe job. I'll work here for the next, you know, 30, 40 years, this or the next, you know, not realizing, obviously, that the average person now changes jobs every, what, three to five years or something like that. Why not just do that and kind of live your life,

kind of like how we've been taught to do it for the past, you know, 50, 75 years? Well, from my point of view, having wealth equals having a great life. Wealth is health. Wealth originally came from the 15th century and people would say, well, he be with you and wealth be with you. And it meant like, have a great day. I hope you're doing well. And so from my point of view, and I think there are people that should have a regular job and should do steady work. I mean, God bless them, right? That's just not me. So if you have a desire for something more, then wealth ties into this whole thing. Money effectively is just energy, right? So everything you do to increase yourself, your energy is going to make you more successful in life. That includes

looking after your body, working out, going to the gym. That's what Richard Branson told me when I met him. He said, you know, the one thing you can do to increase, I said, what's one thing you do to tell a young man to increase their wealth? He said, work out. And the second thing you can do is love your Like being a better dad, I think makes me a better business person. I'm trying to be the best father I possibly can right now. And I know I'm going to fail at it, but I'm doing the best I can. Being a great husband, I'm trying to be a great husband to my wife. All of these things factor into business.

So that's why to me the journey of wealth building is the journey of all of these things and mastering them all. And the better you master them, they all feed into one another. Life is, it's not an isolated thing. I don't like the guy that's just driven by money and that's all they care about and they screw around on their wife or they, you know, aren't a good dad or they're never, for their kids or they're out of shape. I'm like, you've got to have all of that working out.

There's no point making $100 million and then dying of a heart attack at 50. You know, divorce is the biggest cost of people's wealth in life. And the worst thing is when you, like, grow up with a bunch of kids that are just not got their act together because you never spend any time with them. I mean, so, and it's going to be hard. And I understand that I could have all those problems anyway. I could be out of shape. My kids could be a mess.

But I'm just doing my best to participate in them coming out good and me being in shape. And I think all of that ties back to wealth. So, you know, I know when I work out on a regular basis, I feel great when I go make a pitch or I analyze a deal, I'm that much sharper, I'm that much more aware, and I'm that much of a better presenter. So I think to me, the journey of wealth, you may as well say, do you want to live a great life? I mean, it's the same thing. Wealth and life aren't that far apart. I love it. I love it. Yeah, that's really great. Hey, so, I mean, you've got what sounds like a fairly large enterprise. I mean, you know, from your, your realty office to your personal investments,

you know, sounds like you're a wealthy guy, which is great, you know. One is enough enough. It's oftentimes the question that comes up and people always ask that. Like, when do you stop? Are you doing it because you're greedy? Are you doing it because it's exciting? That's the work that you love doing. Why do you continue working if you could probably just stop and not have to worry about it at all? So it's a great question.

I'll give you two answers. First off, when my dad died, when he was dying, I took like a year where I worked very little and tried to be there for him. I went to MD Anderson with him with my mom. just try to kind of shut it down. I probably worked 20 hours a week instead of my normal 40 to 50. And man, I got bored out of my gourd. Like when I was with my dad, I loved it.

But literally, I got an experience of what shutting life down looks like. And it was not satisfying to me. And then secondly, I think the beautiful life from my point of view is when you give it away at the end. If you watch it Bill Gates and he's taking all his energy and he's trying to cure disease in the third world country, when I had that group of $100 million people that came together, like every one of them was in, to some cause. And some of them were really deep into it, like water wells in Africa for one of them, affordable housing in Austin for another, getting all the homeless street, people off the street, Dell Children's Hospital here in Austin. Every one of these guys is using the skills they built

building wealth to serve a cause of significance. And by the way, I gave to every one of their causes. And from my point of view, that's part of the journey too. Like you make it, you earn it, you build it, and then you give it away. And I think that's awesome. And the giving pledge where people agree to give away more than 50% of their wealth. Even telling my kids, like, you're living this lifestyle right now because what I've done, you may have to figure out how you're going to live based on your actions because I may not give you any money. I mean, I may just give it all away to people that need it. And I think all that ties into it, Josh. So when you ask like, what's the meaning of it, why would you ever stop making a difference if you can? And that's really

what I think wealth gives the opportunity to do. It gives you an opportunity to make a difference for your family, but it also gives you the opportunity to make a difference in many, many other families. So I give away 250 grand a year. That's my motto for myself right now. I'm trying to figure out a way to go deeper into that, like a cause that I just love. I have a friend that goes Ethiopia all the time, and her deal is wells, hospitals, and schools in Ethiopia through glimmer of hope. And I'm going to go next year. I've been invited every year, but I committed to go in March of next year and just see the difference you're making these people's lives. And I funded seven water wells and changed the destiny. I mean, you know, help bring clean water to 1,200 people. That's awesome. I don't have a connection

with it yet because I haven't been out there. But that's what I think wealth does for you too, man. It's just this journey of you earn it. You become a better person while you're earning it. You become stronger, more capable. And then you give it away. And then by giving it away, you become another person and you learn more and you move further along in life. We don't own any of stuff here on Earth. It's just loan to us. But the better steward we are of everything that's here while we're here ultimately, I think makes for a more interesting and fascinating life. Bring me your big problems because that's what I'm gearing up to solve. It's like I'm trying to make a difference while I'm here, carve my initials on the, on the, on the, on the tree of life.

And then I'm going to be gone and it'll all fade away, but I'm going to make a difference while I'm here. And by doing so, I have a more fulfilled life. I love it. I love it. It's, it's interesting because, you know, as a society, we're trained to look down to wealthy people. And, and, you know, I think there's a line. And I don't know where the line is, because you get to a point where, in my understanding is you get to a point you're, you're doing well. And you kind of want to keep it. But then you get to that next point, it's like, oh, I don't need any more than this. Now I could start giving it away. And I don't think that applies to everyone, but I will tell you every person that I have met that I consider wealthy spends a considerable amount of their time

dedicated to giving their money away for causes that are well above and beyond who they are. And that, I don't know, I mean, it's really something special. And it's a, it really is. It really is a shame, I think, that that's not out there enough. I think as public as Bill and Melinda are with what they're doing, I think that only helps. But it really is a shame that we're trained to look at wealthy people with such disdain as a society, because truly those are the biggest benefactors of all the most downtrodden people across the planet. I think people say that rich people are greedy so that they don't have to make the effort to do what many of those rich people did to be successful. And I know multiple people that say the same thing you do, Josh. I've got a family member who's

like really down on rich people and just sits around playing video games in a dark room all the time. I'm like, wow, that like really, I totally agree with you. I've met some rich jerks, but I've met even the jerks are usually up to some form of contribution and giving back in a way that that lazy person that's not doing anything that criticizes all rich people couldn't even dream of. They couldn't even be capable of, you know, making a difference like some of these people are doing because they have it in them, but they've chosen instead of getting after it and becoming that person to just so, oh, all rich people are jerk. So I'm just going to sit here, eat popcorn and watch TV. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't incredible people that don't have money, but what I am saying is those people that criticize rich people, they just don't get it. In my opinion, I'm like you, I've seen more awesome wealthy people that are really making a difference in life than people that are just greedy guts trying to screw everybody out of everything. Awesome. Awesome. I love it. So, you know, we talked about motivating yourself to continue to build wealth. Obviously, there's a reason, right? And that cause is really what drives you, which, and, you know, you said you haven't necessarily defined the one thing, that one cause that really is getting you, but the idea of giving

is really what's driving you. I wanted to ask, you know, you're somebody who does both business and investing. What are your thoughts on each of them? What's more important for building wealth? You know, building business, real estate investing, are they both necessary? Can you do? You one or the other. And on top of that, you know, I'm a study of the, recently I've been studying the Bloomberg 500, I think it's like the Bloomberg 6 or 800, whatever it is, list. And I study it not from the perspective of, oh, I want to be a billionaire because, you know, that's maybe one day, but, you know, I have no ambitions to be a billionaire. I do it because I'm fascinated by the wealth building process. And what I've found is, you know, at least the first few hundred, the vast majority of

them built their wealth through business. They may own assets, real estate assets, but the vast majority of the top, top elite billionaires all made it in some kind of business. So just kind of keeping that in mind, I'd love your thoughts on business versus real estate. Sure. It's a great question. So the biggest risk in life is not taking risk, right? So the biggest risk is not taking risk. Now, if you want to be comfortable and you're a fireman or a policeman and you want to buy rental property, that will take you from just social security and a pension to actually wealthy. But the biggest money is absolutely an opening and starting businesses. There's no question about it, but there's also much bigger risk. So you can become a master of buying single family homes and

flipping them and keeping them as rentals. And your success rate's probably 70%, maybe 80, right? There are 21 out of five guys are like, yeah, I invested in real estate. It was a disaster and I'll never do it again. But four out of five are like, yeah, I've done pretty good with my real estate. But business is a totally different story, Josh, and you know this, right? Like, it's one out of ten, make it. So the challenge with business is you're going to fail in nine times out of 10. But absolutely, I mean, my wealth for my businesses is 70%, 80%. The real estate's a place for me now to park wealth, a thousand a month coming in just by doing single family homes. But if you want to hit 100 million or more, you got to open a business. And that is a whole other

level of skill, a whole other level of risk, but also a whole other level of adventure. And even what I did is I bought franchises, right? So I had a parent or a guy, you know, Gary Keller's a brilliant man. He's a billionaire, you know, for sure, if not now will be. And he was my mentor early on. But he provided a framework for me to be successful. And you'll make even more success if you, you know, more money if you don't have that framework. So I chose the framework. I took more risk than 99% of people. And there's still a part of me that knows if I had just gone that one step further and done it without that framework,

that's where you win. But of course, the failure rate is like much, much higher. And what is it, like nine out of ten businesses fail in the first year and nine out of ten fail in the next. You know, it's just a much higher risk. Yeah. So, you know, I know that within the book, you, you, you, you talk about momentum and the importance of momentum.

And truth, truth be told, I have not read the book. That's right. You do talk about, I haven't read it yet. Can you explain what you're talking about there with momentum? Yeah, so like everything is about momentum. Think about when you go to the gym, right?

You start going to the gym. It hurts at first. Then you get momentum and you're going all the time and it feels good. Not when I go, man. You love it all the time? No, I just don't. I just don't go. He just doesn't go.

I don't think I've walked in a gym in 10 plus years. So momentum shows up what do you do to exercise or you just rely on your jeans? I look good, man. I just look good. You do look good. I'm looking at you right now. You don't look out of shape. Anyway, so let's move on.

So momentum is something easily established. It's difficult to establish, but it's easy to disrupt. So like I said to you earlier, I look at more deals in a year now than I did in my entire 30s. That's because I have momentum. And momentum has been created because I've done so many deals. I have such a high comfort level with them. And more importantly, I've pulled the trigger with a lot of guys that know I'm willing to pull the trigger. So people bring me deals because they're like, you know, bring it to David because he'll not only do the deal,

he'll take care of the people that bring him the deals. All of that is the example of momentum. And I call that flow. And that's business flow. And so like the flow state, they all talk about Peter Diamantis and all those guys. To me, that's like this Anytime Fitness deal I just looked at. A guy called me like last week. I got a deal.

Do you want to look at it? Sure, I'll look at it. We happen to be at a meeting today. And one of my masterminds, Tiger 21, which is a high net worth investing group. He organized to have the guy come. We stepped out of the meeting. We had coffee with him for 30 minutes, looked at the deal. Right, that's an example. This is very easy. Didn't have to chase it. It came to me. And it came to me because I have a reputation of, you know, following through on my word, and I have a reputation of having capital. And there was a deal out there. So real estate is the same way. We have realtors all around the country that send this deals because they know we'll do the deal if we like it. and then we'll make sure they get paid. Like that's very important to me, the people get paid.

Like if you bring me a deal, you got to get paid. I never try to save my commission. I'm not trying to save $1,000 or $5,000. I want you to get paid. So that's an example of flow in that area. An example of flow is I play a ultimate pickup game, ultimate Frisbee pickup game twice a week. And I'll tell you what, when we've got it going twice a week on a regular basis,

everyone shows up. And then as soon as like it gets cold or windy, everyone goes away and then you try to reinstate it. And guess what? Four people show up. So then you're playing two on two, which is exhausting. It's terrible.

but that's because we broke our momentum and it didn't follow forward. Another example is spending time with my kid. When I'm with it and I'm on with my kid, it's like regular. And when I don't do it, I miss it. But then if I get caught into like a week worth of intense, you know, 12, 14 hour days, maybe something's blowing up or something new is happening that I got to work on. Then I got to reset myself and drop all that business energy and get back into the flow of family energy. So we talk about the importance of momentum and a lot of tricks and techniques you can use to establish momentum in many areas of your life.

And you guys know how that works. Oh, yeah. because of your podcast, right? When it's going well, it's all in a flow. And then, you know, if it freezes like it does, all of a sudden we're thrown out of our momentum and we got to reset. Well, it's funny as you know, and then we get deeper pockets and that's weird.

Yeah, that's a freaking great way to start. That is awesome. I'll be thinking about that at 4 o'clock in the morning. Yeah, you will. I'll make sure of it. And here's another way you can affect flow and momentum is by who you hang out with. Your environment is so important. So you've got to be around winners.

You got to be around a great. You know, I have a lot of healthy food in my house and I don't allow a lot of junk in my house because I have no willpower. So if there's like a bag of lays potato chips, I'll eat those chips. But if I'm hungry on Sunday and I'm watching a little college football or Saturday and there's no potato chips, then guess what? I'm going to eat some almonds or some carrots and hummus. Because that's all I allow myself to have in my environment, which creates momentum, which creates health, which creates energy, which creates wealth. I love that. I mean, you have to create a framework that works for you.

because you're not alone in that. I mean, I think anyone I've met who has willpower, and that's a small percentage, tends to be successful. Those of us who don't have willpower have to create systems to enforce that lack of willpower that we have. And I do the exact same thing with you. I mean, I only allow my wife to have one or two bags of cookies because otherwise I'll scarf them all, whatever it is.

Yeah. So, Josh, I've also found in that same area, like we talked about the gym. Ideally, I would go to the gym more often, but honestly, I don't really like it. So I've got this personal trainer, and I pay her, and I got it on my calendar. I woke up this morning. I didn't want to, it was the last thing I wanted to go to the gym. I played ultimate yesterday.

I'm kind of story. I saw 8 a.m. gym. I'm like, holy crap, I got to go straight to the gym. And I did it. And I got there and I felt sluggish, and I fought my way through it. And I got it done. But the system I've created is that I have an incredible trainer.

I don't want to disappoint her. She's an amazing woman. And it's all my schedule. So what am I going to do? Like be a wimp and not go. No, I'm going to show up even when I don't want to. And by the way, if it had just been me going to the gym, if that had been the appointment, I'd been like, ah, forget that.

There's no chance I would have gone to the gym this morning if I hadn't had the trainer there waiting on me. I love it. And yeah, I'll be a wimp. I don't like gyms. I'll do a personal trainer in my house. I just, I don't like working out around other people. I don't know. Something about it.

Oh, this is a private gym. So it's just me. Oh, oh, okay. Nice. That's better. Yeah, I'll do that. That I would do. That sounds awesome.

I'm not a big fan of all those people around that make me look like a dwarf, you know, like those big... I don't think you smile at and she scowls at you. I agree with you. I don't like those big gym environments. They don't suit me. So I always try to find things to do that, like how can I incorporate the gym into something fun, right? Like something like Ultimate Frisbee, I play that every Saturday.

And the exact same thing is true for us, too. When we're on, every Saturday we play. And then as soon as we start, the rains picks up, and we'll go a month without playing. But then it's every week again when we get on. I'm right with you there. My last question before I head to the fire round. of the show. How do you balance work, play, family, you know, in your life? How do you balance all that stuff? So it's way easier now than it was. And so I would be lying to you if I didn't say

I did the 20 years in 10. I call it the 20 and 10. When you work, I work for 10 years, 20 years worth to work. So I don't think you, I don't know how to get there without doing that. But, you know, I don't know how. But today, because I have resources, what I think's crazy is when you see people that are like worth $100 million, they're working 90 hours a week. They're never seeing their kids. They're never seeing their family. And they're out of shape. So I just book everything into my calendar. One thing I do at the beginning of years, I book four killer vacations with my family. So we're going to Cabo this weekend with another family.

We'll play golf. We'll hang out. We'll be on the beach. We'll go swim with dolphins. I book all that stuff in for a quarter and one epic trip every year. So it's like locked in. There's no way out of it. And then I'll book getaway weekends.

I'll book, you know, I just book things in with the gym. So I use my calendar to kind of control my life. I'm one of those undisciplined people that wants a great life. My willpower is low. But I found when I have the system locked in, into my calendar, that's how I live. So I used to think having a calendar took away freedom, but today I've come to the conclusion that by having a well-regmented camera calendar

has actually increased my level of freedom. Because it would be stupid to go to Cabo and be thinking about work all the time. So I just shut it down. I go there. I'm there at the moment. And a lot of therapy and a lot of working with a lot of people. But my balance works and it works really well now. I'm really pleased with it.

It's probably one of the things I'm proudest of is how I've built that balance in my life. Awesome. Awesome. And before I let us go on to the fire round, my final question is, you know, what's next for you? Obviously, you know, you're not going to stop, man. You're just like you're a wind-up toy. We wound you up and this guy's going to just keep going. So what do you see for the next, you know, you're in your 40s?

What do you see the next 20 years looking like? So my goal is to spend my 50s and 60s figuring out how to give away money. I want to find a cause that I'm crazy and passionate about. I'd like the majority of my time to be in that cause. It could be education like we talked about earlier. It could be helping people in Africa. I'm not sure which, but education is really big to me. So ultimately, I want to take all the skills I develop building wealth

and apply it to making a difference in the universe. But of course, I'll still do 30% of my time on money and I'll still make a ton of money. I'm not giving up on that stuff. So really that's where I'm headed, Josh. And I want to also say to the listeners, like, I got to be clear, I started off as a goofy, misguided, unfocused, procrastinating kid. So you hear me and you talk about how I'm an energizer bunny and I'm laser-like focus, but it's because I've done so much work on managing my energy, designing the systems,

putting the criteria around me that gives me a tremendous amount of energy. But I wasn't like that. In college, if you met me, you'd be like, man, this guy is probably the least likely to succeed because I didn't have the focus and the commitment that I have now. So I don't want you to sound like, I don't want to sound like I was just born this way. I fell out of bed and I was like massively successful. It's been a long grueling study. But the main thing I've done is focus on my way of approaching life, managing my energy,

shepherding my energy, being around winners, et cetera, et cetera. I don't know where that relevance is in, but I just think it's important people hear that. I love it. I love it. All right. Let's head over to our world famous fire round. It's time for the fire round. All right, the world famous fire round.

These questions come direct out of the Bigger Pockets forums, which of course our listeners can get to by going to biggerpockets.com forward slash forums. So question number one, when do you think the market's going to crash next? And what's that going to look like? I don't care because there's always deals to be done. And the deals, you can find deals in an up market and a down market. and in a down market. I will tell you my philosophy when you're in a market that's been rising like a long time like it has. I'm much tougher on my criteria and I'm much more cautious. And when

the market crashes, what sucks about a good market is every day you're in a good market, you're one day closer to a bad market. What's great about a bad market is every day you're in a bad market, you're one day closer to a good market. I can't wait for the next bad market. I'm going to make more money in the bad market than I ever made in this good market unless, of course, I'm stupid and I overdeploy and I get reckless with my cash. So I don't care what the market is, and I expect to have a down market in the next two to three years probably. Yeah, love it. There you go.

Okay, next question. My spouse has no interest in real estate. How do I convince them to get on the bus? I don't. I let my wife be her and I be me and this is work for me. I don't know if it would work for everyone. But I tried early on to try to make her an OCD, goal-driven, super ambitious person like myself.

And it didn't. What I found works best in relationship is to be non-critical, be extremely supportive. And if you have a need you have to talk real estate, go find somebody that loves real estate and talk with them. Don't try to make your wife into what she's not. And this has worked really well for me. I did it all wrong at first and I was critical.

And now if I want the house kept a certain way, I hire a house cleaner. It's not my job's wife's just to clean the house. My wife's job is not to make me happy. Her job is to be the best woman she can chooses to be and my job is to support her in that. I've given up on trying to make my wife what I want her to be and I've decided to just accept her as she is

and love her as much as I possibly can. Fantastic. Awesome. Yeah. Number three, How do I find a mentor to help me in my local area? Like, how do I find somebody local that wants to actually take me under their wing? You reach out to somebody successful in your space.

You got to find them. And if you don't know how they are, you ask successful people who's successful in my space, whether whatever it is running a business or doing real estate. And then you email them and say, could I please have breakfast with you? And then when you show up to that breakfast, and if they say no, you email them again, you send them a gift. Hey, I read this book. I thought it might be relevant to you.

Hey, I found this. I thought it might be relevant to you. You try to add massive value to that person's life. And then when they finally give you that breakfast, you take avid notes. You take action on what they tell you, and then you send them an email back saying, thank you so much for sharing with me that I should do my three most important things every day. I've been doing that and my life has changed. I really, really appreciate it.

And if you shine and treat people that way and you treat them really, really well, they'll want to help you. My experience of wealthy people like we talked about earlier is they're incredibly generous with people that show up like that. The only reason they feel like they're not is because if you say, hey, I want to coach with you and then you don't do anything. They don't want to hang out with you. The one difference between wealthy people and non-wealthy people is how purposeful they are. people are extremely purposeful. So if you get with them and you don't do anything and you don't follow up and you're lame about it, yeah, they're going to avoid you and shun you because you're lame. Instead, show up with massive value, massive gratitude. And I think you'll find you'll have

a mentor for as long as you need them. That's great. That's the best answer I've ever heard to that question. I've asked that to a lot of people, but I love that. That is a good answer. And the best place to start that I would say would be bigger pockets, jump on the forums. We've got 750,000 plus members. So it's a good place to live. look locally. All right. Last question of the fire round. Should I get an LLC before buying my first deal? This is one of the most commonly asked questions on bigger pockets. Like not a day goes by where somebody is not asking that question. So should I get an LLC before buying my first deal? You know, it's kind of, here's my answer. It's irrelevant. Just do the freaking deal. Like if you do

the deal with an LLC, it's probably slightly smarter. But the reality is if getting an LLC slows you down at all, just do the dang deal. The only reason you need LLC is if you have any money. If you have no money, It's not relevant whether you have an LLC. You're just trying to protect yourself from lawsuits. So just do the damn deal. That's what my answer would be. I love it. Great answer.

Great answer. All right. Last section of the show, we call our famous four. Famous for. All right, these are the four questions that we ask every guest every week. And we're going to end the show with that. Number one, what is your favorite, not counting your own, but what is your favorite real estate specifically related book?

You know, I'm just such a huge fan of Robert Kiyosaki. He told me that coffee. The cash flow quadrant just taught me. Rich Dad's guy to investing, the importance of being an inside investor. He just got some really good stuff. And I know he repeats himself at every darn book. I really do. I get that, but still read him anyway.

So I'd have to give Robert Kiyosaki's book, you know, that book. I think the one thing is an amazing book also. But, you know, cash flow quadrant is number one. Right. Right. And there's no bias there with Keller Williams. No, no, no, no. That is my favorite business book.

It's a great book. The one thing. Anyway. Yeah. And Jay's an amazing guy. as well. He's an amazing guy. Our favorite business book,

non-real estate, feel free to say the one thing if you want to. I think what the one thing does is it teach you to prioritize and focus in. But my famous book of all time, I think is as a man thinketh,

it's written in the 1800s. It's a short little read and it just teaches you the importance of managing the garden of your mind, pulling out the bad thoughts and putting in the good thoughts. And that book is one I,

you know, I just think as a man thinketh. And if you're a woman, I apologize, don't take it as sexist. They were all sexist back then. Just read the damn book and get some value out of. There's incredible value in that book because everything in life is a reflection of how you think. Everything.

Whether you get along with your wife, whether you're a good dad, whether you're in shape, whether you're rich. And if you can manage your mind, things will go really, really well for you. If you can't manage your mind, you're lost. I love it. That is also fantastic, fantastic advice. All right, hobbies. What do you do for fun when you're not building business, investing in real estate, giving away money, hanging out with your kids? I just eliminate most of your options.

But what else do you do? So I play golf. I would not encourage you to take up golf, but I'm obsessed with the game of golf, and I'm an eight handicap, which is terrible, really. People say that's great, but, you know, so I'm just trying to be a good golfer, and I put a lot of time into it way more than I should. I would not advise it to other people, but I'm, you know, and then skiing. So I golf, ski, hike, and that's it.

And then I spend time with my family, travel, adventure, read, hang out with winters. But mainly golf is that nasty habit I have. Awesome. Very cool. All right. My last question of the day. what do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from all those who give up, they fail, or they just never get started?

Two things. One is action, and second is awareness. So if you take massive action, if you don't take action, you're never going to do anything. If you take action and you're not aware of the lessons from it, you won't improve. And so the awareness is the second thing. Like, what do I do right? If you won, winning is almost worse than losing because when you win, you kind of get carried away with yourself. You get all cocky. You think you're amazing.

and then you're set up for the mistakes you're going to make. So the awareness teaches you, okay, what went well. I'm very aware that first house I bought in Austin, Texas was in Austin, Texas. And the reason it went up so much is because I was in Austin, Texas. Not just because I'm David Osborne and I'm somehow special. I make good investments. And at the same time, if you have a failure, you shouldn't walk around going, man, I'm useless.

I can't do this. You go, okay, why did I fail? I failed because I bet on the wrong market or I got an unlucky property. I've had a, I've had dishonest people sell me bad deals before that I thought I could trust. and I'm only stupid if I go do a second deal with them, right? So the second reason, so awareness helps you then build a foundation for success in the future. So be aware, be super aware, be hyper aware, and then take massive action. I love it.

I love it, man. All right, before we let you go, where can people find out more about you? How do they get hold of the book? David Osborne.com. David Osborne.com. Wealth can't wait is the name of the book. It's right there. We have the wealth can't wait website.

I'm at David Osborne. dot com and maybe i'll be on the bigger pockets uh website somewhere or maybe in one of your forums with your 750 000 people that's where you find me man i love what you guys are doing it's all all joking aside you are educating people to have financial freedom and if everyone in this country had financial freedom just think of all the problems we could solve we could quit pointing figures and yelling at each other because we'd have fulfilled lives instead we'd get on with building an amazing country and an amazing community so i really do honor what you guys are doing in spite of my inability to remember names sometimes.

It's all good, man. It's all good. Well, David, thank you so much for coming on on the show. We really do appreciate it. And we'll look forward to keeping in touch. Thanks, Josh. Really appreciate it. Thanks, Brandon.

Thank you. All right, guys, big thanks to David Osborne for coming on the show. That was awesome, man. Very, very motivating. I know he couldn't get the name right. I know he was a little bit nervous. I mean, you know, I get nervous when I'm around you and I can't even think straight. but, you know, clearly you intimidate everybody, and that's what happened.

It's my good luck. Good looks and charm. Yeah, I'm sure the antithesis of that. But yeah, that was great. Awesome, awesome guests. Really, really cool show. He's, I mean, what really grabbed me was the cause, right? The reason, the purpose.

And I think that changes, right? I mean, it's hard to have a purpose bigger than yourself when you're struggling to build wealth for yourself. But I think once you get there and you accomplish that, what I admire about him in the little time that I know him is that. It's, you know what, okay, obviously I now have enough money that I don't have to really think about it. But now I'm going to set my goals to be even more motivated to get more because I want to go and serve the people. I want to serve society, humanity, whatever it is, whatever that causes. And that's so motivating to me. and I just, I appreciate it so much.

Yeah, I do too. I love the, I love the idea that wealth is more than just money. Like you said in the show, people look down on wealthy people, but like, you know, he responds with like, it's not about the money. It's about having a rich life, like a full life that you feel, you know, that you're living to the fullest. You're living big. And again, I just love David's approach to that.

So I hope you guys enjoyed this interview as well. Again, if you want to, you know, get his book, go to Wealthcan't Wait.com or go to David Osborne.com, I think you said, and pick it up. Yeah, awesome. and we also mentioned Scott's book in there. So be sure to check that out. BiggerPockets.com slash set for life. Definitely want to check that out.

It's a great wealth mindset book. So awesome. All right, guys. Well, this is show 226 in the can. Thank you so much for listening. Come back next time on the Bigger Pockets podcast. And we'll see you then. I'm Josh Dorkin.

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