BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 249: House Hacking, Live-In Flips, and Investing Purposefully with Josh Daniels

Episode Date: October 19, 2017

Why do you want to invest in real estate? Is it just about having a lot of units—or is it about creating a life you can be proud of? On today’s episode of The BiggerPockets Podcast, we sit down with Josh Daniels, a real estate investor in Montana who, along with his wife Summer, has chosen to buy fewer but better deals on a quest for financial freedom. You’ll hear about Josh’s highly creative actions that turned their first deal into a cash-cow, as well as the shift to (and reason for) investing in single family houses. You’ll love Josh’s attitude toward financial freedom, as well as his message that you don’t need hundreds of units to be free. In This Episode We Cover: How Josh got started investing right out of college The story behind his killer first rental Rental rates for this property How they earned $80k on their next deal What exactly a live-in flip is How they manage their properties A discussion on tenant drama in multi- vs. single-family properties Josh’s “why” in his investing How to handle emotional attachment to deals Tips on financing deals through the BRRRR method His thoughts on Dave Ramsey’s advice for paying off loans And SO much more! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Bookstore 500k Net worth in 5 years (I’m 30 today!!!) (Forum Post) Dave Ramsey From Shop Teacher to Multifamily Syndicator with Todd Dexheimer Books Mentioned in this Show The Millionaire Mind by Thomas J. Stanley The Millionaire Next Door by Thomas J. Stanley Brandon’s Book on Rental Property Investing The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey Fire Round Questions New member – Looking for advice on getting started How many chances do you give a tenant who pays late? This house has no takers Tweetable Topics “Ignore everything on the MLS. Drive every street and check out dilapidated properties.” (Tweet This!) “Life is not a competition.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Josh Josh’s BiggerPockets Profile Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Well, this is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 249. I remember the day we got our first rent check. I mean, my mind was just blown. It was a new thing for me. Then that's when we went all in on real estate. We're like, this stuff works, you know, because it was the first check I'd ever received in my life passively, you know, where I was able to just, the rent just showed up, you know. Like, it was awesome. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for a new.

investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorkin host of the Bigger Buckets podcast here with my co-host, Mr. Brandon Turner.

What's going on, man? Yeah, you know, the usual traveling. Where in the world is Brandon Turner today? Yeah, you're in Minnesota? know. Minnesota. Yeah, the last podcast and then this one, because we're recording them on the same day. I'm still here in the oak covered kitchen. Check this out. I'm going to show you something. Fancy. Oak door. Yes. Oak shelf. Right for it. Oak bench behind me. Wow. Oak table. Well. Sitting on an oak chair.

Wow. Oak trim. You are the least interesting person in the world. There is so much oak in this house. I love it. But like in Minnesota, that's still popular. I don't know. In my area. How do you mom? We have, yeah, I will. Hey, mom. Oh, geez. Dad? You want to come say hello? Come here. The turners are about to come on the podcast.

Come here and come say hi. There we go. Let's see. All right, you guys are going to hear my dad here. Come on over. All right. Dad, come talk to a couple hundred thousand people. All right, Stan.

Hello. This is my dad. Hey, dad. Hi, Josh says hi. What's happening? He can't hear you. Where's mom? Yeah, where's mom?

Is she around? You should bring her over. All right. While we go on, he's going to go see if you find my mom. That's great. Well, there you go. That's my dad. You're not, you weren't just like, you know, created out of nowhere.

I know, weird. I came from somewhere. Oh, my goodness. Cool, man. Well, so. Wow, we are so far off track. We are. We are. Hey, man.

Today's show is cool. I, like, it's one of those like, we, we often do these shows where it's like, oh, how big can you get? How big can you get? And today's show is like, hey, what kind of life can you? build. Right? And I think that's, that's great because there are those people who want to go and go as big as they can. And then there's other folks who are like, I just want real estate as a way to kind of live the life I want to live. And that's what, that's kind of what we did today. And yeah, it's a lot of

fun. Yeah, focusing on like on better deals rather than more deals, you know, like he gets, he's, he, you guys will hear like, Josh, his name's Josh Daniels. He's talking about his first deal, especially, going to blow you away. Like, just his creativity and how he made a house turned into a house hack. Come here, Mom. Come here, Mom. Here she comes. That's my mom. Say hi. Hi, Josh. Hi, Mom. Say hi hundreds of thousands of people.

Hi, hundreds and thousands and millions of people. Yeah. All right. Thanks, Mom. That's my mom. She's awesome. I love it. I love it. I love it. Cool, man. Yeah. So, anyway, great, great show. And we'll dive into that in a minute. Before we do, Brennan, we need today's quick tip.

So today's quick tip actually comes from last week's show, but we had two cool quick tics last week. I couldn't decide which one to use. So I used one last week, one this week. So last week's guest talked about this idea of when you're calling like agents, contractors, sellers in another market that you're not in, go sign up for a phone number in their market. So when their phone rings, it's their area code, which instantly builds more trust. And it just takes down a few walls when they originally, you're talking to it. Yeah, and that awesome, cool little tip. It's like 10 bucks a month or whatever. You can get a phone call, phone number in their area. So that's great. I love it. I love it.

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with BiggerPockets for over a decade, helping thousands invest smarter. If you want to do the same, visit BiggerPockets.com slash retirement to learn more. All right, guys, let's get into this thing. Today's guest, Josh Daniels, is a real estate investor in the middle. of nowhere, Montana. Actually, I don't know. Pretty much. Columbus, Montana, I think. Was it Columbus?

I think it was something like that. Yeah. And there, you know, he's building a portfolio of single family buy and hold rentals, creating cash flow to help him live the life that he wants to live. And it's great. We dive in on finding deals on just as Brandon said earlier, some creative ideas for taking a property that might not have been the greatest deal when he bought it and transforming it into something very, very creative and profitable. So great show, very excited to have them on and let's

just get to this thing. All right, Josh, welcome to the show, man. It's good to have you here. Hey, it's great to be here. So excited to be with you guys. Yeah, that should be a lot of fun. It always weirds me out a little bit when I got two Joshes on the show. I feel like you're like ganging up on me or something, you know. Double Josh. It's a good name. It is a good name. Very solid name. All right. So Josh, you and I actually met before once. Did we not? And I didn't know that until today. So tell us about that. We did. Yes, you know, Brandon put a post on bigger pockets looking for the beautiful face of bigger pockets. And I just knew it was me. So, no, me and my wife got to connect with him and he came out and stopped by one of our very first property,

took a picture of us with him and Heather. And it was just a really cool experience. We did. Yeah, I was on my trip around the country and I wanted to meet a bunch of bigger pockets people and take their photos in front of their their units. I'll actually take the photo I took of you guys and we'll put it in the show notes here. So they can go see what you guys looked like, like what, two years ago or whatever. But anyway, it was a super cool experience and you guys were crushing it. And I did not know that you were the same guy that I was interviewing today until like five minutes ago. So this is going to be fun. Yeah. So it was pretty starstruck and amazed at how tall you were. I am a tall guy. You are a very tall guy. Indeed. Indeed. Indeed.

All right. Awesome, man. Well, I'm not enough for you guys, you know, getting a little get together. you guys go find a hotel room and I'll actually do an interview here. So Josh Daniels, talk to us about getting started in this world of real estate. Why real estate? How'd you get started? What were you doing before? Yeah, you know, we just basically got started right out of college. And I think that's kind of where our story really starts is back in college. We were just really frugal. You know, we just didn't have much spending that we did. And we graduated college debt-free. Both my wife and I, we were dating through college. And so we worked really, really hard, paid off those student loans. And then we got out of college and we felt super broke. You know, I remember I got my first job and I was making like $31,000

a year. And it was like, dude, I got money all of a sudden. But we didn't live like that. We lived way under our means. And about a year later, about nine months later, we woke up and we realized we had $20,000 in the bank and we're like, we're rich. You know, we felt so so blessed to have that. that's really what got us started realizing, hey, we got to do something with this money. And we're married, we're out of college, we got the first real job. What do you do? You buy a house, right? And so we told our landlord, hey, we're going to be buying a house.

And his first reaction was really sad, of course, because he's losing tenants. But after that got over, he kind of, he said, hey, I got a tip for you. Ignore everything on the MLS. You don't need the MLS. drive every street in the small town we live in and check out houses that are vacant, maybe broken windows, missing paint, that kind of stuff, and go just check it out and see what you can find. And so that's what we did. We just kind of started driving around. And we called some of those people and we got our first deal just calling on those, you know. But it all,

it really all did start with us being able to live under our means and have that capital there to be able to do. So where do you live? I live in rural Montana. Columbus, Montana. I'm about an hour outside of Billings, if anybody even knows where that is. It's the biggest town in Montana, and it's still like 90,000 people. It's really small. Montana is amazing. I finally got there this summer.

I love, love, love Montana. I think we were at a place called Livingston, this cute little town, like amazing, beautiful, cool little town. Yeah, I'm a fan. Dude, that's just like 40 miles from me. So that's my neighborhood there. Cowtown. It's awesome. Yeah, cattle country.

Yeah, it's good stuff. All right, so you're in rural Montana. You're driving around. You find this first property. You buy it from them. This was a property to live in, correct? Yeah, yeah. So this was our first house.

And we saw it, and we thought it was really lame because it had a separate entrance to the basement. And we're like, this is super lame. You can't get to the basement unless you go outside. And we're just like, man, what is this? And the basement was stripped and gutted. we eventually found out that it was a duplex at one point. And so over the course of, we purchased it, we paid $70,000 for this property. It needed a ton of work. We redid a whole bunch of stuff on it

ourselves on the nights and weekends. And we took that basement and we put in a unit down there, and that was our first rental. So it was kind of like a house act, but unintentionally, we didn't even know we were buying a duplex when we bought it. We just kind of stumbled upon it. So what did you, what did you rent that basement for once you fix it? Well, and before that, how much did you guys put into the property to fix it? You know, we were super cheap. I bought like the damaged drywall at Lowe's and like the cheapest sinks and like free toilet from Craigslist. It was terrible. I think we probably put like $4,000 into rehabbing that basement and making it from cement walls to a livable apartment. And it was rough. I mean, we go down there today and we're just like embarrassed about how the

quality workmanship. They were just like, oh, it's funny. I was just walking through one of my old rentals, like one of the first I ever did on my own. Like I fixed, yeah, I'm just like walking through like,

what was I thinking? Like, why would I do that? Yeah, who did this? Who did this work? And like, I'm walking with my contractor.

He's like, oh, look how shoddy that work is. And I'm just like, um, yeah, that's really bad. I mean,

boy, there's been some moron contractor worked on this house. Yep, yep, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

So yeah, we rent. rented that for $400 a month, man. And I remember the day we got our first rent check, I mean, my mind was just blown. It was a new thing for me. Then that's when we went all in on real estate. We're like, this stuff works, you know, because it was the first check I'd ever received in my life passively, you know, where I was able to just, the rent just showed up, you know? Like, it was awesome.

It changed. It was a big thing for me at that moment. What was that like living next to your tenants? You know, we asked you that people at from time to time because everyone has a different experience with it. So how'd that work for you? You know, we liked it. I really enjoyed it. You know, I just enjoy people.

And so for us, it was a positive experience and just getting to know different people. And I don't think it's totally worth the hassle. I mean, it's a small amount of hassle to deal with tenants like that. And to get paid for it, it's just like, oh, not even consideration in my mind. So we enjoyed it. That's good. Awesome. All right, so you got this property, the accidental house hack, the accidental duplex,

and you got the itch, right? So what do you do? Like, you know, your wife seems like she's on board as well. She's excited. But you had spent the 20K that you had, presumably, plus then some. How do you proceed? Yeah, well, that duplex was sitting on quite a large lot. And I started looking around for other deals and trying to find stuff and realized that

the property that Duplex was sitting on was a full double lot and the duplex was only on one lot. And I realized, holy smokes, I got a whole other lot I can do something with. So I took that extra lot and we went to zoning and figured out what can we do with this. Found out it's good for a manufactured home that had to be double wide pitched roof, like a nicer mobile home basically on it. And so we spent a couple months looking. We found a mobile home for six grand, moved it in, and rented that for $800 a month. And so that was just a, yeah, that was a killer first deal for us. That really, between those two, that really springboarded us into to be able to make some money.

All in all, we put probably 15K by the time we moved the mobile home, water hookups, sewer hookups, all that stuff. But still, 15K investment, that rents for $800 a month. I mean, that's like a, what, 6% rule, 5% rule? So you got 70K plus the 4 plus the 15. So that's 90K gets you, what is that, 1,200 plus you get to live there. Yep. So you're at a 1.5% rule or, you know, a little over 1 plus you're living for free. And if you rented your half out, you got another, what, 4 to 600.

It's a screaming deal. Yep, yep. That's basically what we did. we moved out after that and got 600 upstairs, 400 down. We got $1,800 rent for that initial deal. And we paid $70. We put, you know, a big down payment on it. And we were big Dave Ramsey fans back then.

And we still kind of are, but we definitely used debt. But he really helped us to think differently. So we put it on a 10-year fixed-rate mortgage. And so we paid it off in about five years. We put extra money on it. So now that property is free and clear, you know, pranking out $1,800. a month. It's a good starter home for us, a good deal for us to kick it off. That's so cool. That's very awesome. And what year was that?

Five years ago to the summer. So 2011? 2011? 2012. Okay. So is it still generating 1,800 a month? So you have not been able to raise the rents, though? No. No, we haven't. No, we kept it right about the same of where we're at. That's one interesting thing about rural real estate investing, right? Is that like the rents don't really go up very much, you know? Nope. Yeah, I still get about the same rent as 10 years ago. Yeah.

But what blows me away about this deal is this guy that owned it before me was an investor, you know, and he had it for about 10 years. And he rented the duplex upstairs, just the upstairs unit for 500 bucks a month. And so he was sitting on the potential of $1,800 a month for six years. but just being able to look differently at a deal and go, hey, how can I, what's the highest and best use? How can I make the most money out of this thing and make a good livable space for people in our community? Because it's definitely a shortage where we live. You know, I've heard of people doing similar things.

Like they'll bring in like a tiny house, right? And they'll put it in their backyard or in Hawaii. What a lot of people do is they bring in those, I think they call them Ohanas. It's like a separate house you can like buy. And the government even has like a program for this because there's a housing shortage. Well, you can put them in your backyard. basically and then rent that out to, yeah, I mean, it's just thinking outside the box. I love it. Exactly. Exactly. That's the money. That's great. That's awesome, man. All right. So you've taken

this one property that was going to be your primary residence, converted that to a duplex, realize your property could sustain another property on the property, another home on the property. You did that. I mean, absolutely brilliant. What's next? I mean, did you continue to make good moves or, you know, would it be hard to top that going forward? It was kind of hard to top that. You know, I felt like we were a little spoiled on that first one, you know, but our next deal was just as good of a home run. I think we bought, bought well in our community back then. Even though rents haven't gone up, values have really gone up in our area. We've just hadn't seen significant appreciation. So buying anything back then looked smart,

you know, now it's like, oh, that was a good deal. So our next purchase was a brick duplata or single family home that we found of Fannie Mae foreclosure. And it was kind of ridiculous. We actually were watching it on the market go down in price by $10,000. And then they drop it again, $10,000. And I think they were at 59. And we put in an offer at 49. And we're like, all right, sweet, we'll get a good deal on this house. And they said, no, we want 59. And we put in an offer at, I think it was 55. And then they said, no, we want 59. Well, we get up to 57,000, I think we offer. just real close to it. And they rejected our offer. And then the next morning, they lowered the price to $49,000. And we were just like, you guys are idiots. But that's Fannie Mae for you. Our government

dollars at work. What's funny is that exact same thing happened to my in-laws. Just like with fan, I think it was a Fannie Mae foreclosure like six months ago. Yeah. Yeah. Same thing. They ended up getting like 15 grand cheaper than what they offered like a few weeks earlier. Yeah, it's just ridiculous. Anyways, we moved into that house. We were getting tired of living next to our tenant. So we did that as a flip, a live in flip, I think is kind of what we call it around here. And so moved into that. We stayed two years and we sold it first day on market for $150,000. So cleared about $80,000 in tax free profit on that, which for again, small town guy, I don't make much money at my day job. You know, I'm not a rolling in the cash. So that really helped springboard us into buying a lot more

rental properties because we had that cash then to be able to do. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. This is great. All right, man, I'm addicted. Now what? Now what? Now what? Well, we jumped in from there to start doing our first flip and, you know, about the same numbers, purchased about 50 and sold for $120, I think, somewhere in there. And so a lot more. rehab on those and different things. And we've been into another live and flip, what we're currently in. We're in, again, in year five. So next year, we'll be ready to sell that one for the two years, tax-free creation there. Let's talk about that real quick. So people might not know about what that is. So live-in flips is one of my favorite ways to invest. Can you explain, first of all, like, why is a live-and-flip,

you know, a cool thing? And then what's that two-year thing you're talking about? Sure. For me, live-in flips are awesome because I don't have to do all the work right away. You know, with flipping time is money, you know, regular flipping time is money. You can't let that thing sit there. You know, but live in flip, I got time to work on stuff and clean stuff up. I'm kind of a do-it-yourself kind of guy, although lately we've hired out a lot more, delegated a lot to Cruz. So I think that's a huge advantage.

If you got time and you, you know, you can just get in there and clean stuff up, the big advantage is the tax reasons. Every two years, you're able to sell a property. If you've lived in it, two of the last five years, then you can sell that. tax-free. And so that's just a really important thing there. That's your tenant, Colin. Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, they need me. So on that note, let's let's talk about that real quick. So first of all, I'll wrap up the, yeah, the live and flip thing. I love it. The two-year thing, fantastic. I love that. In fact, I just sold actually a house like three weeks ago and I cleared

about $80,000 on it. And it's going to be tax-free because I lived in it two of the last five years. Now, I haven't lived there in two years, but I live there for, you know, three and four years ago. So it was qualified for the two of the last five years. So anyway, yeah, the living of the thing is cool. But what about management? I mean, are you managing all these properties yourself? As your wife does some, do you hire it out? Yeah, we manage it ourselves. My wife does a lot of the paperwork, handles the paperwork. You know, I handle most of the maintenance calls at this point. We don't have a ton of units. We got eight units right now. So it's pretty manageable. We only invest from now on, we only invest in single family homes. We just, after that duplex experience, we like it. We still own it. But we just

really intentional about buying single family homes to not have tenants sharing walls. It just cuts down on drama. We really want this to be a passive retirement strategy. You know, we're not in this to have hundreds of units or whatever. We're just here to build up a good nest egg and make it as passive as possible. Let's talk about that because on next week's show, we've got Grant Cardone on the show again. And Grand Cardone calls you an idiot. Yeah, he will.

As a preview. Yes. I think he called our wives' idiots, or at least my wife. wife, I think. But anyway, yeah, we'll get to that next week. You guys will have to hear that next week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're, I mean, the strategy, I love how you said, I only do houses because I don't want shared walls. What anyone who's owned apartments or duplexes, triplexes, fours, and five plus knows is, you know, once you step away from houses, you tend to deal with tenant drama. Do you want to explain why it's different than a house?

Yeah, yeah. For us, I mean, a house is just really amazing, especially three-bedroom houses. You're attracting families. We rent to, you know, good blue-collar workers or professional tenants that are just great people. You know, they got family, they got pets, they just enjoy the home. You know, they make it their home. A lot of our tenants do a lot of repairs that I never hear about. You know, I don't even know that they did anything.

And so it's pretty amazing that they work on that stuff. And then, you know, with the tenants in the multi and the duplex and stuff, I just feel like they just have a lot. I don't want this to sound wrong, but like an entitlement mentality, you got to do everything and fix it. And rightly so, you know, it's just, it's not their home. It's just a temporary place they're living. So, you know, our single family homes, we sign three, five-year leases with them, you know, they just, yeah, they enjoy. They want the last three houses we bought this summer, all of our tenants we've got have all said, we want to buy this. house. You know, that's our goal is to when we're done, we want to buy it from you. And so we just

want people, it's just a different mindset when you're dealing with those people. They're much better. They're so much easier to work with. That's why we do that. Got it. And what about, you know, I guess one of the arguments against those long-term leases for folks is the ability to raise the rents and things like that, is there, you know, given your market, it seems like that's less of an issue. Do you have any concerns signing people to the long-term leases? like that? You know, I haven't. I just haven't seen looking at the history in this area. I haven't seen rents go up crazy high in any short period of time. And we actually sign our leases starting a little bit high above market rent. Yeah. And that's just who we attract. But then we

look for good people that want to be in there a long time. And usually it works. So it's been working. And for the newbies, you know, we don't ask this question. I think we just kind of assume it, Brandon. But, you know, I want to go and buy a house and rent it out to somebody. Like, what, what am I responsible for as the landlord? What are they responsible? Like, are they mowing lawns? Are they shoveling? Are they, like, where's the line between you and them and on duties and bills? Sure, yeah. And when that's probably the main reason why we like the single family homes is the, the utilities are all, we just put them all in their name and they handle them and they work with the thing. So if they're late, they got to work between the company, not us.

Yeah, they do all the lawn maintenance. They do all the snow removal. I mean, it's just, it's their home. They, they do so much around to keep those places going well. So that's, that's, I think the main reason why we like them. It's just, it's way less work, way less management for my wife. Yeah. And your strategy, you said you've got eight units now, only investing in single family houses.

You're not doing this to get rich. Why are you doing? Are you doing it to quit your job? Are you doing it to get like X amount of income? per month and then just retire or in addition to your job? What's what's your goal? What's your why? Yeah, my joy, I love to do what I do. I work nonprofit. I'm a children's pastor at a church. And so I love what I do. I love working with kids. I love our future generation. But it's not a field that you make a lot of money. And you know, it's just known for not making tons of cash.

So for us, this is a great retirement strategy. And yeah, someday I would love to be able to be able to to help those places like that without having to draw a salary. I'd love to be able to have enough income to live on and just be able to serve and use my time to help people. So that's kind of my wife. All right. So you're not, you're not doing this to get rich, which you don't have to, right? I mean, it's like there's a purpose for everyone. Everybody has an opportunity to kind of do their thing. And yeah, it's great. Yeah, there was a huge mind shift for me once. I spent a lot of time on the forums. And I feel like there's a bragging rights thing with how many units you have. It's like, oh, yeah, I got 20 units. I got 25 units. And so for a longest time, for the first

three years of my investing, it was all about how many units do I got? How many can I get? And something shifted for me one day when I realized, I would much rather have 15 units that push $5,000 a month than 50 units that push $5,000 a month. You know, I'd much rather have better units and just easier management and all these types of things. And it became more about equity and cash flow instead of focusing on units, you know, units alone. And I almost made some bad buying decisions because, oh, well, that one's got four units. That's got more than the other one. So that'll make me more popular on bigger pockets.

No, not a good reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's true. I see it all the time. Like people talk about unit numbers and it's very much of a breaking rights thing. And even I like, I last two weeks ago, right, I sold my 24 unit apartment building. Now I just feel like, oh, I only have 30 now. or, you know, whatever.

It's like, you know, am I not as cool of investor? Do I not have the right, you know, like I'm dropping? Yeah, I don't know. But it's not. It's not about that, right, at all. Even though your balance sheet is probably much better now than it was. Yeah, what matters here, guys, is like, it's your needs, right? Like, I think one of the things that we're all guilty of because we grew up in this society

is we're guilty of competing against one another, right? And look, competition is awesome. It is good. I like competition for sports. I like competition for motivation. I like competition for certain things. But life is not a competition, right? I think it takes a lot of,

I think a lot of people never realize that. I think a lot of people go their entire life and never realize that they're not competing against everyone else. It's like, you know, you drop dead and you're dead. And that's the end of you, right? So like, you know, like, not about all money. Everyone else is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. So like worry about what?

do you need? Again, like we said, what's the why? Why are you doing this? You know, is it like to look like you're cooler than the other guy? Okay, well, if your ego is that fragile and that's why you're doing stuff, you need to rethink your life. Exactly. You need to rethink your life. But yeah, it's, it's interesting. Obviously, you know, I've got, I'm somewhat introspective about this kind of stuff. And it's, Brandon, you're still a good guy with 30 units, man. You're still Brandon Turner with 30 minutes. Thank you. And if you sold all 30, you'd still be Brandon Turner. I would be. That's true. And a lot less headache. Yes. Amen. Awesome. All right. So how are you, how are you finding deals at this point? I mean,

is it all still just driving the neighborhood? Yeah. No, we we've found actually surprisingly most of our deals on the MLS, you know, even though our landlord told us that the first time, for whatever reason, we've just found a lot of good deals. Foreclosers are most what we've been buying, although those have been harder and harder to come by lately. So are these areos or or. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

Areos. Yep. Listed on the, on the MLS and, but bank owned. And so, yep. So we, that's kind of what we've been buying. And then we found a few off market. I think two of them this year, we found off market. Just one on Craigslist.

And then one just, it was actually next door to the one we just bought. And the lady was like, hey, you want to buy this one too? And we're like, sure. So it just worked out. So those kind of things happened. That's awesome. You know, it's interesting. I mean, being, are the numbers all pretty similar to those initial deals?

You're paying about getting about one and a half, one to one and a half percent? Yeah, about one to one and a half percent. Other than the one we bought, we made a bad choice this past year. We paid way too much for a property. We ended up selling it and we made about nine grand, which was not great for a flip profit by any means. But we didn't lose money and we were happy. But yeah, that one, we paid $120,000. and we tried to rent it for $1,200 a month.

And that one, I don't know, we just, we had trouble keeping tenants in it. It was in a rougher neighborhood in billings. So it was just a challenge, but you said you paid too much. Did you pay too much due to some emotional attraction to the property or did you pay too much because you chased the price up? Or did you just not evaluate it appropriately enough? Yeah, I think you're right on all accounts. We were just too emotionally ready to buy another property.

We just get excited. I love real estate. I get too excited about it. And we were just like, we need a deal. We need one right now. You know, we got cash. Let's do it. And we bought this one.

And it was the one on Craigslist. And yeah, it's just we paid a little bit too much for it, 120. And it's in a different town. We never bought in before. It's in Billings, which is about 45 minutes away. And the rents are a lot higher there. They're in the 12 to $1,300 for a three-bedroom house. but we shouldn't have, we should have not fudged our numbers and we shouldn't have said,

hey, it still just doesn't make sense for us to do it, being that far away and stuff. Great advice. That's awesome. Awesome. I'm going to dub this need a deal syndrome. Yes. Thank you. And you are not alone in getting in having need a deal syndrome. That's right. Brandon, I'm always in that. Yep. Yeah, that's me. Yeah. And it makes you do funny things, right? Yep. The longer you go too, you know, if you, oh, I'm two weeks without a deal. Oh, gosh, I got to go find something. Yeah, you're thirsty. You're thirsty. Well, so that's, that's the danger of like the 1031 exchange. Like, you know, I'm in the middle of one right now. So it's, it's crazy. Like, I have to find a deal. I've got 30 days left. Like, there's no question. I have to pay taxes. I can't. I don't want to pay taxes because it's a long story. But, man, it's, it would be, I would lose like half of my profit if I had to pay taxes. Like, I have to find a deal. So I'm going to find a deal. Like, we have to find a deal. Like, we have to have. about last week, the show that came out last week talked about like this mentality, instead of thinking, will, I won't I? Like, I'm just very, very positive. I'm going to find a deal.

But at the same time, like, I know the risk because that could make me that. It brings emotion into the thing, right? So how do you do it without emotion? I don't know. You got any tips for me? Yeah, use that drive to help you find that. But yeah, I don't know how to control my emotions yet. I still get too excited. I just love real estate. It's so fun. The best way I have is this. I'm not no expert of this because I let emotion get into, but it's when I bring in other people to answer because they're not emotional, right? So I was looking at a deal that had, you know, I thought it was pretty decent, but I showed to my wife and she's like, yeah, but what about this and this? And I'm like, oh, yeah, you're right. And then there's another deal we both got excited about. I brought to another guy who I really respect on bigger pockets. I said, hey, I'm looking at this deal. He said, what about this? And I'm like, oh, you're right. You know, like, those conversations, I think it's when I know there's a problem is when I don't want to go ask for advice because I'm afraid of what they say. If you don't ask for advice, you definitely have a deal that you don't want to get into. Good advice, Brandon.

That's really good. Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you. Thank you. That's awesome. It happens a while. So, Josh, you talked about how you're finding them. How are you financing them?

Are you just using cash flows from the other ones to now help you acquire them or what? No, we do pretty much the Burr method that you guys have heard about. The real fun thing that we kind of discovered, maybe this will help somebody that's listening. is that mobile home that we bought back at the beginning is basically what allowed us to finance a bunch of our properties. We went to the bank after we got that brick house under contract, that really good live and flip. And I said, hey, I don't have any down payment money to buy this thing. What can I do? And he's like, well, you need 20% down because it's not in livable condition. Secondary market won't touch it. So he said, well, what do you have collateral wise?

And I said, well, I got this mobile home. And he said, all right, we'll just use that as your down payment. and you can get into this no money down. And since then, we've done that three times with that mobile home. So it worked out really good for us buying properties. But now since we've paid off that original duplex, we have a $100,000 line of credit on that. And we just use that pay cash for our property with the line of credit, basically. And then we can refinance right away.

We don't have to wait the seasoning period because it's a line of credit. So we can refinance. And then in about 45 days, we get our original purchase price back. up to the full purchase. So we have to put in. It's not quite the birth strategy because we have to put in repairs, but we usually do that for $5 to $6,000

and we let the cash flow from the rentals kind of pay for those. Can you explain how that works vis-a-vis somebody else who's got to do seasoning? What exactly is the difference between your ability to do it without seasoning and somebody's ability to somebody else

who require seasoning? Yeah, you know, I may not be the best person to ask, but from what I understand, once you get a loan on a property, then you have to wait the six months. There's something about that that the title has to season on that. But if you pay cash for the property, which is kind of what we're doing with the line of credit, because there's no lien filed against that property you're buying, then you can do something called the delayed financing exemption, I believe is what it's called through secondary market lending policy. And then that's where you can just go in the day after closing and ask for a refinance based

on the new appraisal value of whatever it is. And so that gives us like 40 days. We know the appraiser's coming in 40 days. We got 40 days to make this place look good. And then usually by then it's the values have gone way up. So an example of one this summer, we paid 67,000 for it. We, you use the line of credit, so no, no cash down on it. And then we, we put about six grand into it. And then it appraised at 135. And then we were able to get a full loan amount on the 167 back. So we didn't lose much cash other than our rehab costs. And so I just worked really good, got a tenant in it right away. And it works.

It's just awesome. Are you continuing to pay these off with 10-year notes? No, no, we do all 30-year fixed right now. That's where we've left Dave Ramsey in the dust. Sorry, Dave. Well, so let's talk about that for a minute. So, I mean, this is the big debate in the community. There's the Dave Ramsey side of things, which I love Dave Ramsey.

I mean, he's one of my favorite humans, right? But Dave is adamantly against mortgages, against loans. and if you have one, you better pay it off as fast as possible. Where do you fall on that line and why? Well, I, you know, I love him for credit card debt, you know, dumb, car debt, you know, dumb, those kind of things. But for buy and hold real estate, it just doesn't make sense. I mean, just the logic doesn't make sense, you know, especially when he says,

well, I won't yell at you for buying a house and putting it on a 15-year fixed rate, but you can't go into debt for a rental property. I'm like, well, rental property makes way more sense than buying a private residence. That's a good point. I never thought of that. The logic he uses to argue against it. And anytime somebody calls into a show and says, hey, it's, you know, I got seven rental properties and they got dead against them. He always tells them just to pay them off as quickly as he can.

He never says to sell them, which is always interesting to me. In other words, he likes the rental properties. It's a little illogical. But anyways. We've been trying to get Dave on the show for years now. do it. Yeah. And I don't know that he wants to come on board. But we'd love to have him, Dave, if you're listening or if somebody that knows you is listening. Come on, man. Come on, man. Come join us. We could dive into this stuff. It'd be a great discussion. Yeah, you should look into getting his son-in-law, too. He's the property management for their portfolio. He might be a good, you know, he's not quite as big as Dave, but he runs all their properties. I didn't know that. I guess we'll look into that as well. That'd be fun. Yeah. Might be a good follow-up. Cool.

Nice. Awesome, man. Well, it sounds good. Where are you going next? What's, you know, just pick up a couple more properties and call it a day? Yeah, we're just kind of buying them as they come out, you know, and as we have money and as we have energy and all that kind of stuff, we got two kids and one on the way. So I tell you, we've slowed down quite a bit in the last two years since those kids

have been around, but especially the live and flip stuff. But that was a good start for us. I think our goal is probably about maybe 15 units, something like that, 15 single family homes and you know if we could be around that five to six thousand dollars in cash flow uh you know if we pay them off and and get a good base under us i think we'd be pretty excited for that so that's kind of our goal for now sounds great yeah cool cool yep all right well why don't we uh you know when we shift gears here and head over to the world famous fire it's time for the fire round Did you know, you can go on vacation and actually earn money?

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In some cases, investors even receive 50 to 75% of their down payment back at closing, and there are interest rates as low as 3.75%. They've been trusted partners with BiggerPockets for over a decade, and if you want to learn more, visit BiggerPockets.com slash retirement. Tax season reminder for all the real estate investors listening. If you own rental properties, short-term rentals, commercial buildings, basically anything that's not your primary residence, you need to know about cost segregation.

It's an IRS compliance strategy that lets you accelerate depreciation on your properties, which means you're paying less in taxes this year and keeping more cash in your pocket for your next deal. Cost segregation guys is the go-to firm, having done over 12,000 of these studies, with $500 million in total depreciation identified. Head to costsegregationguise.com slash BP to get a free proposal and see your potential tax savings. All right, let's get to the fire on. These questions come direct out of. the Bigger Pockets forums, and we're going to fire them right at you, Josh Daniels. Number one.

Hi, everyone. I'm a brand new member on Bigger Pockets looking to get started. I'm 23 years old, looking for advice on how I should start on the journey. It says my plan of action is to acquire a real estate license and then start my career up by selling homes and learning the ropes. I believe that from there I can learn about the business, eventually become a successful investor. So my main priority right now is getting started and learning as much as I can. I'm glad I found this website and I appreciate any advice. I'd love to hear your opinion on my plan of action. What do you think of that?

License first, learn the business. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. You know, one of the things that springboarded my wife and I was that she was able to work at a real estate office for about two years. And it really helped us get in the end with the realtors, learning the business. And so any way you can get plugged into the business and the side like that really helps. I really think it makes a big difference. I think he's got a good plan. The only thing I would say is don't forget how house hacking, you know, look for that duplex or look for that.

live and flip. That's a great way to get started. All right. Very cool. Awesome. Awesome. All right. Next question. How many chances do you give a tenant who pays late? Zero. Oh, good question. You know, we try to do our best to not let them pay late. We file our three-day pay-or-quit notice, which is prior to our eviction notice within five days of the tenant being late. And that just lets them know we're being serious. And it really helps. We've had a couple of tenants that we've gone even two months without them paying rent on. And that was tough. But we just felt like it was the right thing to do in that situation.

They were both hospitalized during that time and their kids were at home with grandma. So we just, that's the choice we made. Now, we don't know. That's not a normal thing. So tenants, if you're listening, we're not going to make that happen more. That's great. And look, I mean, like, I think there are the occasional special circumstances. That's what we felt.

Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Cool. All right, Brandon. Next question. I can't see to get this house rented, even after many rent reductions. Any tips on getting this thing rented?

Huh. I don't think I've ever had that problem. We've always got them. We've always got them rented in the first week. You know, the market's so hot around here. But yeah, I don't know. Check your pictures. Where are you listing it?

What are you doing? I mean, listing is really important. For us, the gold mine lately has been Facebook. You know, getting your on the Facebook sites that are like for sale or rent in your local town, huge difference in how. I'm talking about groups like Facebook local Facebook marketing groups. Exactly. And those have been just a gold mine for us finding really good tenants and finding them quickly. Awesome.

Excellent. All right. Last question. I'm looking to get started with flipping. What should be my first steps? Flipping houses. Oh, man. And that's the whole podcast in itself, right?

Just trying to get started on that. Yeah, that's why you guys have so many. But, you know, I would just say find a mentor, find somebody that's doing it, see what they're doing, learn the best practices in the business, and get after it that way. You know, starting on your own, you can, but why? You know, you got great people in your neighborhood, I'm sure, that are doing it. So, get on that. Awesome. Very good.

There you go. All right. All right. Well, let's shift gears here one last time and head over to. Are you dreading doing your taxes? Unsure of how to maximize deductions for your real estate business? Well, the book on tax strategies for the savvy real estate investor will give you practical information you can use not to just do your taxes, but also to prepare a strategy to use

throughout the year and make tax season that much easier. Of course, with the end of year looming, this is a good time to read that book. So right now you can get 20% off that book until the Wednesday after this podcast airs. And so it's on sale this week only. 20% off the book on tax strategies for the savvy real estate investor. Get it at biggerpockets.com slash store. All right, let's get to these famous four questions. These are the same four questions we ask every guest every week.

Let's see what you got to say. Number one, Josh, what is your favorite real estate related book? Well, my favorite real estate related. No, no, no, no. We all know that your favorite book is mine. Josh Daniels. Josh Dorkin. All right, Josh Daniels.

What is your favorite? What is your favorite? It's a point to. Thank you. Yeah. So, you know, I've spent a lot of time reading a lot of different books. But if you added up all that time, it wouldn't compare close to how much time I spend of reading the bigger pockets forms.

And so my answer is definitely the forms, man. I just love reading and learning so much. I learned a ton from that. So, man, if you're out there listening to this, get on the forms and get engaged because that's the way to do it. You know, you can get learned so much from those. I love it. Awesome, man.

And no, we did not pay him for that. Oh, I, I, I, well. I saw you. I really love it. You recently hit over a thousand forum posts and over 700 votes, which means like you have a high, yeah, that's a crazy high vote to post ratio. So good job. That's pretty good. It means you're being helpful. Nice work. Yeah, thanks. All right, Josh, what's your favorite business book and non-real estate? You know, non-real estate, kind of more of a mindset book is the millionaire mind and the millionaire next door. Those just really help me understand how, who the wealthy people in our world are and how they got there and just really help me

understand a lot more of what they were. And then one of my favorite is the richest man in Babylon. It's a PDF download that you can get for free. It's real easy to get to and you just Google that and you'll find it. It's about 70 pages. You can read it in like four or five hours, but phenomenal basic advice about how to invest and how to just live frugally under your means and just make things work. And so I really like that. Recommend to that anybody starting out. I think that's definitely my, that would be my. my favorite mindset book also for sure for sure cool man what about hobbies what do you do for fun i mean not a lot of time with the two and one on the way what are you doing besides hanging with the

kids you know i love the outdoors i'm in montana you know so this is uh i love hiking backpacking right now it's hunting you know i'm i'm a big hunter i shot a bear a couple weeks ago and that was a real cool experience so those kind of eat the bear i am currently eating the bear he's tasty right now at this moment oh no yeah general. I mean, like, a bear, how big a bear was this thing? Oh, he wasn't big, big compared to Eastern standards. He was about 250 pounds somewhere. So a 250 pound bear will feed your family for an entire winter. Is that not correct? Yeah, a good, yeah, yeah, a good hunk of meat out of him. You know, that's pretty much all we eat is wild game around here. So pretty much our whole town,

that's about how it works. That is so Montana. Yeah, it's Montana. Yeah, it's Montana. We love it. That's awesome. Yeah, the one thing that I loved most, when I used to go out to Oregon, I would always get Huckleberry. There was a place by Mount Hood called the Huckleberry, and they had the best Huckleberry syrup. So when we went up to Montana, man, I bought Huckleberry everything. Absolutely. Every, every kitchy Huckleberry food product, we bought it. I loved it. Man, it's my favorite thing. You're those tourists that come up here. Oh, wow. Ouch. That's kidding. Ouch. How many times? Come any time.

Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Last question, Brandon. My last question of the day. Josh Daniels, what do you think separates successful real estate investors from all those who give up, fail, or never get started?

You know, for me, I think it's just about taking action. It's been repeated 100 times on all the podcasts you guys have done. But there's a difference between those that are doers and those that are just not. You know, they just can't seem to connect it. And it's just a matter of doing it, getting out. there take that big action step and you'll you'll be glad you did so take action that's great our man before we let you go where can people find out more about you how can they connect bigger pockets man that's the best place on earth to be i love it yeah awesome man i'm there i'll talk with you i love

love helping people great josh well thank you so much for coming on the show thanks for sharing good luck to you with everything you're doing and uh thanks so much yep see you guys take care all right guys that was Josh Daniels show 249 of the Bigger Pockets podcast. And you can check out the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 249. Great show. I really like his, again, mentality. We talked about this earlier, but it's not about how many units you get. It's about the kind of life you get from the real estate.

So he's crushing it. I love his thinking, like, how do I get more out of this deal? How do I make more profit out of each deal rather than getting more and more headaches and more deals? Yeah. Very cool. Yeah, that's great, man. That's awesome.

Well, it's great to meet. your parents, man. It's great. The whole world knows them. Thanks. Now the whole world knows my parents. And this show is going to get so many ratings and reviews. You guys are all going to jump over to iTunes. Be like, I'm so glad I got to meet Brandon's parents and then give us a five-star review. I can feel it in my bones. Yeah. You guys should leave us a rating review on iTunes. That would be awesome. Cool, man. Well, when do you head home? Friday. I will be home Friday. About time. Yeah, you know, it's about time. It'll be good to be home. Long trip. Yeah. It's been a week. So, that's it. Yeah, I left last Saturday. Rosie, did I tell you this? I think it's a, Rosie threw up on the plane. Yeah, she did she do. Yeah, that was fun.

On the plane on the way there. Yeah. You know, it's been a long week. So you were that guy. I was that guy. They hated me. Yeah. Yeah.

That's right. Nothing new. By the way, you ever been to a Culver's restaurant? No. It's like a chain, right? It's like a chain in the Midwest. I got them in Minnesota. And I think I'm going to get some Culver's frozen custard.

Is it like Waffle House or something? It's much classier than. Buffalo House, though that's not saying much. So, no, it's really like, I don't know, burgers. It's kind of like an in and out sort of, but a nicer version of in and out. Like, you know, every area has their own little, like, version of cool burger chains. Yeah. Anyway, next time you're in the Midwest, Culver's.

And no, they did not pay to advertise on the show, though we should call them and have them advertising the show. Good stuff. Awesome, man. All right. Well, let's get out of here. Let's let people get back to it. So you guys next week, show 250 on the Bigger Pockets podcast featuring Grant Cardone.

He's back. It will be interesting. It will be controversial. But there is some knowledge to be gained in this one. So stay tuned. We'll see you next week. Episode 250. Episode 250.

Guys, I'm Josh Dorkin. And I'm Brandon Turner. Go host to the Bigger Pockets podcast. Go host to the Bigger Pockets podcast. With my host, Josh Dorkin. I'm going to cut him off. He's going to be afraid that he's not going to remember to include me because he's old and his memory is going, sign enough. Child.

You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. It's time for it. It's time for it. The Random Sixth. All right. Let's jump back to you. in here real quick with the random six.

So number one, what movie could you see again and again and again and again and again? Oh, I just watched it the other night. It's called The Last Holiday. I don't know if you get a year, but I just loved it. Oh, was that with Queen Latifah? Sure. I don't know actors' names, but yes. Never heard of it.

Yeah. She ends up in like this chalet in Europe. Yes. Yeah, I love that movie. Oh, that's great. It's got such good values and I just, I just love it. It's good. It's a good movie.

Check it out. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Cool. Never even heard of it. You ever play the lotto? Speaking of values. I have, I think I've had one lottery ticket. Yes.

I didn't win it. You didn't win? Shame. I can't. I mean, that's kind of like the lottery sometimes. It's got a little gambling. Sometimes. Nice question.

Here's a good one. Do you use an umbrella when it rains? Or are you one of those people who just bears with it? No, just bears. with it. I like that. I shot the bear in downpouring rain. So I had a jacket on and no umbrella. Yes. That's awesome. I had a buddy in high school, who's dad was cleaning their gun upstairs in the kitchen, like upstairs in their house, and then a bear walked in their backyard. So he grabs the gun, loads it right there, the kitchen, shoots through the glass and kills the bear in the backyard.

Yeah. True story. And then they ate bear. Yeah, then they ate bear for a long time. Yeah. You guys are strange out west, man. I don't think he, he, I don't think he, he, I don't think he, he, I don't think he thought he could get downstairs and routes. He's like, oh, you know, $200 window and I'll get the bear. And he got them. All right. Summer winner, what do you like more? Oh, man, I probably like summertime way better.

I'm just not a cold fan. It's too cold. Summer is awesome. Yeah, for sure, for sure. You're in a weird place not to like the cold. Yeah, and my wife's name is summer. So I kind of have to answer something. Oh, there you go.

There you go. By the way, tell Summer I said hello. Because I met her too. Yep, you do. sure did and tell Heather hello. I will. I will. Okay, you guys need another room.

We're going to go hang out. Brandon, your last question. My last question. Would you rather be invisible or not? Would you rather be invisible or be able to read minds? Oh, gosh. Well, reading minds would probably come in handy in real estate transactions, but invisibility would be kind of fun too.

I don't know. Let's go with invisibility. Sneak around. That's kind of fun. All right. How do you learn best listening, watching, Watching reading or doing. Definitely reading, I think.

Again, back to the forums. Just getting on and reading that way like that. Love it. Yep. Awesome. Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much again. Awesome.

So fun being with you guys. Thank you. All right, Josh. Take care, man. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K. Copywriting is by Calicoe Content. And editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www. www. www.com.

The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk. So use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. BiggerPockets LLC disclaims. all liability for direct, indirect, consequential, or other damages arising from a reliance on

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