BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 254: Tim Ferriss on Real Estate, Becoming a Top Performer and His Tribe of Mentors

Episode Date: November 23, 2017

Today’s guest needs no introduction, but this would look funny without one, so here we go! Today on The BiggerPockets Podcast, we sit down with Tim Ferriss, author of #1 New York Times Bestseller The Four Hour Work Week and his newest title, Tribe of Mentors and dive DEEP into the patterns that make high achievers accomplish so much. This show is unlike any other episode of our podcast, and we can’t guarantee you’ll be the same person when you finish. You’ll also discover Tim’s unique approach to real estate investing, as well as the books, apps, and routines that has made Tim one of the most influential thought leaders in our world today. In This Episode We Cover: How the gang connected with Tim Whether his mom would be impressed by his accomplishments Why he walks to the beat of his own drum His recent “silent” retreat The value of meditation What you should know about self-awareness training The ins and outs of the book Tribe of Mentors Patterns that are common amongst high achievers The importance of turning off distractions Principles to live your life by How to be truly effective Tips for using money to buy time The 3 advantages that you can have in any type of investing How Tim Ferriss invests What a good investment entails Indicators of a solid property How Tim would analyze real estate The fundamental differences in real estate as an asset class The “worthlessness” of hard work How to balance ambition and being contented And SO much more! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Bookstore Duolingo Alibaba BP Podcast 213: Investing in Real Estate Without Being a Landlord with Noah Kagan BP Podcast 245: Creating Wealth that Lasts Generations with Bestselling Author Ryan Holiday The Summit Conference Headspace Tim Ferriss Show: Jocko Willink’s Episode Tim Ferriss Show: Jamie Foxx Episode Nuzzel Moment App Rescue Time App Freedom Time App Fiverr Tim Ferriss: BJ Miller’s Episode 99Designs Duodie on Instagram Books Mentioned in this Show Set for Life by Scott Trench The Book on Rental Property Investing by Brandon Turner The Book on Tax Strategies for the Savvy Real Estate Investor by Amanda Han The Book on Flipping Houses by J. Scott Finding and Funding Great Deals by Anson Young The 4-Hour Work Week by Timothy Ferriss The 4 Hour Body by Timothy Ferriss The 4-Hour Chef by Timothy Ferriss Tools of Titans by Timothy Ferriss Tribe of Mentors by Timothy Ferriss Young Millionaires by Rieva Lesonsky Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl Poor Charlie’s Almanack by Charles T. Munger The Better Angels of our Nature by Steven Pinker Principles by Ray Dalio Warren Buffett Speaks by Janet Lowe Richest Man in Babylon by The Radical Acceptance by Tara Brock Berkshire Hathaway Letters to Shareholders More Money Than God by Sebastian Mallaby Liar’s Poker by Michael Lewis Lifeonaire by Steve Cook Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki Tweetable Topics: “I don’t like having my sanity depend on luck.” (Tweet This!) “When you’re not thinking of the past, you’re not thinking of the future.” (Tweet This!) “It’s not that you don’t have time, it’s you don’t have priorities.” (Tweet This!) “It’s not how you do things, it’s what you do.” (Tweet This!) “Effectiveness over efficiency on all things.” (Tweet This!) “Thinking is actually asking questions and answering them in your own head.” (Tweet This!) “There’s no problem with hard work, as long as it applies to the right things.” (Tweet This!) “In the end, success is sleeping well.” (Tweet This!) “Worrying is praying for what you don’t want.” (Tweet This!) “It’s very hard to fail completely.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Tim Tim’s Website and Podcast Page Tribe of Mentors Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 254. It's not how you do things. It's what you do. So, in other words, if effectiveness is doing the right things and efficiency is doing things right, it's far more important to choose the right things. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online.

What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorkin host. They're the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host. Mr. Brandon Turner. What's up, man? Hey, man, that was a good show. We just got done recording it. So everybody else is about to listen to it.

We did. Unbelievable. Oh, yeah. Epic. Epic, definitely, you know, and it's, it's not just because our guest is super awesome and amazing. It is the content of today's show was mind-blowing, definitely one of my favorite shows that we've ever done. So fantastic, really, really quite good, man. How have you been?

Everything good. Yeah, you know, we've been talking about all year long now. I've been telling everybody I want to buy a mobile home park because I thought that would be fun to try. I also have this big 1031 exchange going on where I had 45 days to find a property. Yeah. Hey, so anyway, back to the show. Hold on. Nope, nope.

I got a break about this. Two birds, one stone last week. Yeah, last week. Didn't you get it done like just in the nick of time? Four hours before the deadline ended my 45 days. I got it done before. Signed a contract on a 49-unit mobile home park and a 24-unit apartment complex. So, yeah, that's my big thing.

I'm pretty patting myself on the back right now. I'm happy for you. Now I got actually clothes on them, you know, so now the fun part begins. And then manage them from afar, but whatever. Anyway, what about you? What you've been up to? Oh, man, chilling. You're in L.A. I was.

I got to take my daughter to Disney on her birthday, which was unbelievable. I love it there. Big, big fan of Disney. Me too. And I was at a conference, this summit conference, just this ideas festival, this thought conference. And actually, today's guest was there as well on stage. Yeah, man, my mind was blown from this conference, just got to hear from some of the best and brightest in all aspects of society.

and business, entrepreneurship, parenting, psychology, astronomy. It was nuts. My head is still reeling and further reeling as a result of our interview. So I really want to get into this. So let's kind of speed it up and get to today's quick tip. All right. So today's quick tip is something that a lot of people know. We have books that are on Bigger Pocket that you can buy.

They're also on Amazon. But specifically, I want to talk about the bigger pockets books that you buy on the site today. And here's why. There's eight of them, like the book on rental property investing, set for life, finding and funding deals. Yeah. So many good books out there. Flipping.

Yep. Flipping, estimating, all that good stuff. So if you guys go to BiggerPockets.com slash store, you can see all the books. And the reason I bring it up today is because if you're listening to the show the day it comes out, or the day after, the day after that it comes out. We're actually having a Black Friday through Cyber Monday sale, 25% off all your books if you buy them on BiggerPockets. So check it out, BiggerPockets. that comes a store.

And the fact that it's Black Friday actually means that today, when this show comes out, at least, we're recording this a few weeks early, but today's Thanksgiving. So happy Thanksgiving, Josh. Hey, happy Thanksgiving, Brand. I am, I am thankful for the show. I'm thankful for you, man. Despite, for me? Despite you.

Well, I'm thankful for the show, and I'm super thankful that you are thankful for me. I'm really thankful you're thankful for me. It's really good. You know, all those reviews that we get where people are like, Brandon, you got to be nicer. I know. You wonder why. I don't know why. I'm really nice to you. Josh, I am forever indebted and thankful to you. You are solely responsible. Okay, not solely, but you are largely responsible for all of my real estate and other just success in life. So thank you. Thank you. You're good man. It's not sure what they say about you. It's not true. Don't use my line on me,

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The lender needed more time. The deal fell apart. Well, our friends at Dominion Financial just launched a program to help prevent that. With their new express rental loan, you can close in 10 days or less. And they still offer their price beat guarantee so you can get great pricing

and a timeline you can count on. Fast, simple, reliable. That's Dominion Financial. Check them out at biggerpockets.com slash dominion. That's biggerpockets.com slash dominion. We've got an extra special guest for you today, ladies and gentlemen. Today's guest is a man named Tim Ferriss.

I don't know if you've heard of him. If you have not heard of Tim Ferriss, I urge you to go and read all. Well, let me introduce him. Tim Ferriss has been called a cross between Jack Welsh and a Buddhist monk by the New York Times. It's a Welch, not Welsh. He's one of fast companies' most innovative business people and an early stage tech investor slash advisor and Uber, Facebook, Twitter, Shopify, Duolingo, Alibaba, and 50, 50 other companies. I'm 50 years old.

50 years old. Sally O'Malley. Did you know that I was on a Sally O'Malley sketch? No, I did not know you were on a salary. Wow. Shocking. Let's get back to the introduction. He is also the author of four number one New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers.

Soon to be five. Soon to be five. The four hour work. week. Amazing book. The four-hour body. Amazing book. The four-hour chef. Amazing book. And Tools of Titans. Amazing book. And his new book, Tribe of Mentors, which comes out, I think, today or yesterday or this week, this week. Yeah, yeah, tribe of mentors. And you can hear all about the book and the show. The book sounds amazing. I have not read it because it has not yet come out, nor has Brandon, but very excited about it. The Observer and other media have named him, the Oprah of Audio, due to the influence of his podcast, the Tim Ferriss,

which has exceeded 200 million downloads and has been selected for Best of iTunes. How many are we at? We're getting close to 50. He's a big deal. He's like four times bigger than I combined. That's true. That's a big man. He's a big man.

If you listen to like one show ever, you know, bigger pockets is a good show. If you listen to two shows ever, listen to the Tim Ferriss podcast. Did you just steal his line on books? Did I? If you read one book. He did say that. Yeah, that's true. He does that.

Seriously, his podcast is fantastic. Every episode I've listened to has been fantastic. Anyway, let's bring him in. I want to talk to Tim. Yeah. So, all right. Tim, welcome to the show, man. It's good to have you here.

Yeah, thanks for having me, guys. Yeah, this should be a lot of fun. You know, I, I've been for, what, four years now we've been in the show. And since, like, episode number one, I'm like, man, someday I got to get Tim Ferriss. But I just wasn't cool enough. So I had to work through, you know, three, what, 250 episodes, you know, to find You're still not cool enough. I'm still not cool enough, but I'm still working there.

So in the process, so we made a lot of mutual friends. I know guys like Noah Kagan and Ryan Holiday. So we kind of, we, you know. Triangulated. Yes, exactly. And here we are. No, I'm stoked to be on. I actually, I'll tell you guys a short story, which was I ended up last year or maybe 18 months ago

speaking at Google at headquarters. And the person who was guiding me through the process, my handler. Jordan, Jordan, Tibado. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. mentioned to you guys and is one of the biggest fans imaginable and really honed me in on what

what what you guys are up to and i'd already heard of the podcast so i feel like this is this is long overdue so nice to connect with you all virtually and in in person in one case in colorado yeah well cool so yeah me and me and tim ran into each other like late at night hotel bar what was that a month ago something like that yeah when I was finishing up, putting the final touches on the book. Yeah. Yeah, that was cool. All right.

So I want to actually start this thing. If I could jump in, I want to try to make this a little different interview than usual. You normally say, hey, how did you get started and walk through your story? But I figure most people know you by now or if they haven't, you know, we'll touch in your story throughout. But I thought it would be kind of a fun question. How would your mom describe you? I mean, you've done everything from writing books to, you know, you did a TV show. But if your mom was here right now on the podcast, what would she say?

Is she impressed? Yeah. I would say she's very happy for me if I am happy and the most supportive mom imaginable. I mean, I only have one mom. It's not like I have a sample size of 100 moms. But I think if you asked her that, she would say yes, but it's weird to think of my mom being impressed. I don't know why. Does that make any sense?

Sure. Maybe proud. Maybe proud is a better word. Proud. Proud. Yeah, that's a good word. Yes. I think she would be proud.

She would say that I've always marched to her. my own drummer, which has frequently gotten me into trouble. And let's see, that I've always been impatient. Certainly, that's one defining characteristic that has sometimes been a fantastic asset and other times been a gigantic liability. But even from a very young age, if, and I think in part this is due in restaurants specifically, because I had a lot of terrible jobs as, and some good ones, as bus boy waiter you fill in the blanks. But if I'm sitting at a table and my water glass is empty for more than about 10 minutes, I'll just get up and walk over to the busing station or walk into the kitchen,

fill the picture of water myself and come back to the table. But I've done that since I was like eight years old. So go figure. But those are, I think, those are the first two things that come to mind. And she might talk about the very, very, very early days where I was born premature and had a lot of health issues. It was very, very small growing up really tiny and was a runt until about sixth grade. So those are a few things that I imagine would come to mind, at least for her. Nice. Nice. I'm still a runt. Yeah. This is true. Josh is actually, he's almost five feet now.

Yeah. The wall and building are to scale in the background, but I'm pretty sure you're taller than I am. Probably not. All right. Cool. No, that's awesome. And you, you, you, You grew up on Long Island in East Hampton, right? I did, yeah. I grew up as a townie with a rat tail in the Hamptons, which is a really weird place, strange place to grow up. I mean, because if you look at the divergence between the city people, as we know them or called them,

you have a lot of money. I mean, almost unfathomable wealth coming out to the Hamptons in the form of the highest-page fund managers in the world who are buying homes for 100 plus million. You have all of the celebrities you can imagine, from New York City, the Seinfelds, the Spielbergs and so on. On the other side of the tracks, though, you have low-income housing. You have, for instance, my best friend growing up died of, you know, opiate complications. And there's a lot of drug abuse, a lot of alcoholism. So it's a very

sharp contrast. And growing up there, you develop a pretty insular mindset as a townie anyway. I mean, very surprisingly few number of people actually leave. And when I go back now, it's even stranger in some sense because I probably have more in common in my day to day and week to week. I certainly do with the city people than I do with the locals. But I still have that anger of a feisty, petulant. It's like the bridge and tunnel thing, right? Yeah, yeah. So that is, but yes, that's where I grew up.

Eastern Long Island. Right on. Josh, you were in New York somewhere, weren't you? I grew up in Long Island as well. And we had it. I grew up in the South Shore, Nassau County, Lawrence. And my parents had got a second home out in Quag, East Quag. And so I was, you know, I used to kick it with all the townies.

That was fun. Actually, like my favorite story was, you know, we used to tell my mom that we were going to get rides home. We would walk from Quag to West Hampton to try and pick up girls. And I never, we never got rides back because we were. were never very good at picking up the girls. And so we would run home. It was like a, I don't even know how many miles, five, six mile journey in pitch black through all these old county roads and get home and tell my mom, yeah, we had a great time. And, and, uh, why are you sweating? Oh,

it's a really hot car ride. You know, but yeah, you know, I mean, those are the days when you can, like, go on the airport. You know, we used to bike on Gubreski Airport. And, you know, now you would go to jail for such things. But it was a fun place to grow up. It's definitely a fun place to grow up. Are you guys having a little reunion here? It's a moment. It's a moment. It's a moment. Strong Island virtual high five. All right. Let it settle. Let it settle. All right. So I want to go, before the show, you said, you had just gotten back from a conference. You had spoken out of conference. I happen to be at, which was fantastic, the summit conference. Lots of crazy ideas and thoughts shared. And you got to interview Brian Grazer, which,

was for me this super exciting conversation where you guys were diving in on the the conversations that Brian has with all these folks. But before our interview with you, you had talked about you wanted to get out of there because you had just come back from something. And I believe that was your silenced retreat. Is that correct? Yeah. Well, it was a combination of things. I had finished a 10-day silent meditation retreat, which is exactly what it sounds like. But you're disallowed from reading and music and other things as well. And then I went out of the country for additional time off the grid. I was allowed to talk in that capacity, but mostly in nature in a very remote spot. So going from that to downtown L.A., which depending on the time of day,

can be like people in Batman costumes and loud music or I am legend, like depending on where you are, was just complete sensory overload. So the conference was fantastic. I mean, the staff, everything was done really, really well, from my experience at least. And right after my session, then Jeff Bezos and Mark Bezos get up and have a long, wide-ranging conversation about everything imaginable, including space colonization. So I had fun while I was there, but as soon as I could extract myself, not from the event, but from L.A., I availed myself of that opportunity. It's a good idea. That's why I moved to Denver.

Yeah. So why would somebody do a silence retreat? And what did you take away from it? I know you're into a lot of spirituality. Spirituality is the wrong word. What's the word, Brent, that I'm looking for here. Exploring the fringes. Yeah, yeah, there you go.

So why do that? I did it because it was inconceivably the last opportunity to do a 10-day retreat with someone, a gentleman named Jack Cornfield, who's, I would say, one of the five or so Westerners credited with ringing Buddhist, primarily Buddhist, derived meditation or meditative practices to the West, along with a handful of others. And he's older. He's extremely experienced. He's worked with war vets, with amputated limbs, with adolescents who are cutters. He's worked with every conceivable population, which makes him very interesting because he's not only a.

a mindfulness meditation expert. He understands certainly the scripture and so on related to Buddhism, which is not of direct interest to me, but also a PhD in clinical psychology. So he represented to me the anchor that I might need if I were going through what I expected would be a very difficult process and ended up being, in fact, very, very, very difficult, far, far harder than I anticipated it would be. And what I got out of it, I would say, is still TBD, the one of the one of the the things we were told on day 10 is after we'd broken silence, they said, do you think you're normal right now and you're not? Your retreat is half over. So it'll take 10 days to get back to whatever you would consider to be, you're a normal baseline. So I'm not yet there. So I'm still on my

retreat. Although it's not a silent retreat since we're recording a conversation. But it's the gradual unlayering of your psyche in a sense. So you start a off, say day one, you'd be thinking about your inbox or your calendar or the argument you had with your wife or girlfriend or fill in the blank, whatever surface level recent events or pending events might be in the cash that's in your brain. As things start to settle and it gets even harder, then perhaps you go down to certain painful, this is all hypothetical, right? but you might start to experience acute pain for, say, a friend or a loved one who died in the last year. And you just sit in this sorrow and you can't explain it necessarily,

intellectually. And while this is happening, you're being given tools. And there is a short period of instruction every day where you're given technical recommendations for how to handle specific situations or feelings. And the overarching gist, since this is the Avipasana retreat, insight meditation is that you're observing your thoughts. You're not trying to push them away. You're not trying to change them necessarily, although that can happen as a byproduct.

You're trying to observe your thoughts and your feelings. So if you're feeling sadness, what else comes with that? What other feelings may be associated with that? Is it guilt? Is it actually perhaps a bedrock of guilt that you weren't there for, say, someone's last week or something like that that is bringing this,

sorrow to the forefront, et cetera, et cetera. And if you have pain in your body, which everybody will have, because I'm accustomed to meditating 20 minutes a day or so, going from that to eight plus hours a day is a different story. So everyone, including advanced meditators who've been doing this for decades, had physical challenges. I mean back pain, leg pain, hip pain, et cetera. And so you will learn to contend with that and breathe into that area, modify how you're sitting, and so on. And then, I don't want to spend too much time on this because I wouldn't recommend it for everybody, by the way. And we can come back to that. I think it's very, very, very, very, very intense. And if you have any type of severe trauma in your life, you will not be able to escape that.

And it will come up and it will sit in front of you in your head, inescapably for every minute. And that can lead you to a place, which is where I got, where I felt that I was so raw and my nerves were so exposed that I was going to leave the retreat 10 times worse off than when I went in. And I would say if Jack hadn't been there specifically, so thank you, Jack, I think that would have been the case. And it would have been very, very bad. And maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation. So all of that is to say, now I didn't make it any easier for myself by fasting the first five days and just doing a bunch of silly Tim Ferriss stuff that I'm prone to doing that makes my life harder than it has to be. But nonetheless, I would, and this will only make sense to perhaps some people listening to this,

but I would compare it to, in some respects, a very, very, very, very slow motion, high-dose psychedelic experience where, for those who haven't had the experience, and certainly there are legal ramifications to using psychedelics, potential side effects to do your homework, but in many instances, almost all, there is a period of extreme discomfort. where you just cannot get comfortable and you don't feel like you're have you're garnering any insight but you're not in your normal state and it can be very unsettling now in a psychedelic experience perhaps that lasts a few minutes perhaps that lasts an hour imagine if that lasted four days yeah now i came out of it with some very valuable takeaways that i don't want to get into

necessarily but i have concrete next steps and homework for working on things that things that are many layers deep that I hadn't even thought about in 20 or 30 years. So that is what I appear to have gotten out of it, but I'm not done. And that's another reason why I've been hesitant to say, place myself in an environment like downtown L.A. It's just too much, too much talk. Now, the irony of me going into launching a book is not lost on me. So the timing, the timing is what the timing is. I didn't schedule the retreat, and given the opportunity, I made the executive decision that I would roll the dice a little bit and do it just prior to publishing a book. But it was intense.

It was very, very intense. And I've done a lot of intense things. So I would certainly say it's not for everyone. And that you should do shorter meditation retreats, perhaps test, say, transdental meditation, get a decently high degree of comfort with sitting with your own mind before. or doing something as intense or as long as a 10 day. For somebody who was just, sorry, like, just thinking about meditation, like the idea of it. Like, I used to think of it as like this weird, like probably satanic, wrong. Like, you know, there's something, I grew up thinking it was just weird, right? Yeah, sure.

Somebody who was just beginning to think maybe meditation is something I should look into. Is there, I mean, is there an app that you think that is good to use or is there a book you should read? Or what do you recommend? I'd grab headspace. I'd download the app headspace and do there. The Josh just told me about that today. I just got it this weekend. Yeah, do their 10 and 10, I think it's called,

which is 10 minutes a day for 10 days. And it's very well done. And I think almost everyone will see fairly immediate, meaning in the first 10 days benefits from doing that. It's exceptionally well done. I'm impressed with how they've refined and tested and presented that product. So Headspace is where I would recommend most people start. It's great.

Yeah, the user experience is, I've got a, I've got a friend who had done some silent retreats, silence retreats for, I think he'd done five and seven day retreats. He's done a few of them. And the big thing he always would tell me is that, you know, you get lost in these crazy ideas, these crazy thoughts, kind of like what you had talked about. And, you know, you start to question your own sanity even in a lot of those moments. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And you meet with, at least in this particular location, we met with.

teachers every other day for 10 to 15 minutes just to ensure you're not going through a complete psychotic break. But there were multiple points and even more so than in a psychedelic experience. Because in a psychedelic experience, I have enough mileage and experience in that realm that there's a part of me, for the most part, that is aware of what I have, the trigger I've pulled, if that makes sense. There is some semblance of awareness that I am journeying into the, other, whereas in a silent retreat, you just feel like you're going crazy.

You maintain all of your conscious faculties, and yet you can't control your thoughts, or you can't stop perseverating on something that is extremely trivial and ludicrous. And certainly if you do something stupid, like fast the first five days, then you might have three hours where all you think of, this is what happened to me, was calamari, fried chicken, Calamari fried chicken, which was when I realized this is probably not productive for me to be interesting right now. I think I should break the fast. And it's a terrifying feeling to suspect that you're losing your grasp on whatever you thought to be reality.

That's a really, really scary, scary thing. And it's not like you're having that feeling, but you know that in five hours you suspect you'll return to normal. that that was very difficult very difficult not for everybody for sure that's fascinating i've never been new i didn't know there were meditation retreats until i heard i was listening to i think that the jaco pod the episode of the your podcast where jaco guest hosts oh right where he was where he's at tim can't talk so exactly kicking over the mic yeah yeah exactly so yeah if you're ready for very deep work and you have people who can keep you on the rails it's worth considering but i would say that this is somewhat arbitrary, but pretty informed by homework I did, there are probably

half a dozen people in the U.S. who could have kept me on the rails, and I just happened to have one of them there. It's great, but it's lucky. I don't like having my sanity depend on luck. Can we dive on that, though? You know, you talked about the book, and I would like to transition to that in a minute, but before we do, you know, a lot of what you do and a lot of what you talk about is in health and wellness. And so, you know, in talking about sanity, there's so many people, one of the things about our show is, you know, I think we appeal to a lot of people who find themselves in a situation where they look and they're like, hey, my financial situation isn't what I want

it to be. They're not looking the other facets necessarily, but we cover some of that. With you and a lot of, you know, what your world revolves around is that health and wellness. And so I think it'd be helpful for the. listeners, what types of things, you know, for somebody who, you know, maybe they hate their job or maybe they're just transitioning to, you know, hey, I'm just trying to build wealth on the side through real estate or some other way. But, you know, I just feel like I hear all these people talking about completeness and meditation and yoga and like, what am I missing? What am I missing here?

How would you tell somebody to start to explode? Like Brandon, I mean, Brandon's, you know, from backwoods nowhere. And handsome, generous. Are you calling Brandon an incomplete? I think that's what's coming out. I think that's what I'm hearing. That's a given.

That's pretty normal. I hear this every week. Talk to Brandon. How can we get Brandon to become more refined and sophisticated in his own mind? Yeah, let's hear this. Well, what I would say is that when trying to prioritize in your own life, this is not for Brandon.

This is just. That Maslow's hierarchy of needs is very helpful to look at, say, a pyramid representing Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And I'm at a place in my life where it made sense to try to peel back the layers and go into some very deep, dark places. I don't think that is the right priority for most people, actually. It can be very unbalancing and painful and destabilizing. Does that make sense?

Which is why I gave so many. caveats for the 10-day silent retreating, which is why I would give caveats for, say, many of the things that I talk about or have talked about, including psychedelics. But if we look at the lower levels of Massell's hierarchy of needs, we have shelter, food, etc. And then you move up and you get all the way to self-actualization. But for everything on that list, I think self-awareness and being response able, and I'll come back to that, are a fundamental core skill.

And I say skill, because it can be developed. By being response able, I mean that between a stimulus, that could be someone yelling at you, sending you a certain email, that could be your kid doing something that you really dislike.

It could be having CNN headline pop up on your phone. Between a stimulus or an event or happening and your response, there is a tiny gap and that gap is called now, right? And in that gap, which is really life, if you think about it,

when you're not thinking about the past, you're not planning for the future, it is possible to train yourself to metaphorically or actually take a breath and then choose your response and to be less emotionally reactive. That is the skill, as far as I can tell.

And there are other pieces to that, right? It makes you more empathic. It makes you more compassionate. Okay, great. But let's just say you're not trying to become the Buddha. You're trying to make more money in real estate. Being able to coolly and rationally evaluate opportunities as opposed to getting overly excited, say, and then outstripping your capacity and putting too much money into an investment

or miscalculating or ignoring cash flow, or say investing in, because I actually have done a fair amount of real estate investing, investing in real estate, and you have one that goes completely sideways and you end up taking a big loss, or even perhaps worse, you decide that you have to make the money back

the way that you lost it. So you hold on to a loser. All of those things I just mentioned reflect emotional attachment and reactivity, sunk cost fallacy, and so on. So by meditating, let's just say with headspace, 10 minutes a day. If you don't have 10 minutes a day, you need an hour a day. And it's not that you don't have time, it's that you don't have priorities. So this will help you to clarify and be more calmly assess what's going on in your life

so you can make clear priorities. 10 minutes a day for 10 days. And it allows you to take that all important several milliseconds or a second or a minute just to say, let me take a step back here. What am I trying to accomplish? Right. Before I hit send on this email that I typed out furiously banging on the keyboard, am I more interested in being right or am I more interested in getting a result?

For instance, okay, let me take a walk around the block, throw a ball for my dog. I want the result more than I want to be right. Okay, great. Let's delete that email. For instance, all of those are a byproduct of self-awareness and being able to recognize that gap between stimulus and response. And I would agree that meditation as a word has so much baggage and it needs a rebrand. I don't know and it's not my job, nor do I have the interest to rebrand it. mindfulness isn't any clearer, but if I were to call it, say, self-awareness training, that might be

how I've- You just branded it right there? There we go. You heard it here, folks. Yes, this self-awareness training. Sat, although then I'm going to get sued by the people of the college board. But in any case, so that's how I would present it. And I would also point out that most people who operate at a very high level in any sphere, even if you use, say, Jocko Willing, retired Navy SEAL commander, legend in special

operations who did his first public interview in my podcast. Which was fantastic. Everyone should go listen to. That's my favorite podcast episodes ever. Do you guys need a room? We might. Is that what happened? It's the second most popular podcast I've ever put out and no one knew about Jock program.

First one was Jamie Fox. So people can check out. Yeah, both of those Tim. dot blog forward slash jaco jocco and then forward slash jamie if you want to check those out but jaco wouldn't say that he meditates i don't think yeah and jaco's very he's i would consider him a good friend but he talks a lot about detachment and being able to step outside of himself and almost robotically assess the situation when people are say panicking or stakes are very high to make a proper decision to prioritize and execute that end result is

the same, ultimately. Very, very similar. So there are different ways to get to the same thing, but I'm not going to say, yeah, join the SEALs, become a SEAL commander, go to Ramadi, and then you can potentially learn the skill of detachment.

Wake up at 4.30 every day. Yeah, I'm more likely to go to bed at 4.30. But, you know, Jocko and I nonetheless have a fair amount of shared DNA. And so the tool that I think is that I have more familiarity with that I would recommend to people. And there are several actually. Exercise would be another, but that may be outside the purview of this conversation,

but regimented, highly structured exercise to be another very effective way to do this in some respects would be 10 minutes a day for 10 days. That's great. That's awesome. All right. So I want to translate you mentioned book. We talked about it a couple of times kind of hit around it. Let's hear about the book. I want to know about it because I've read every book you've written, I believe. I want to work backwards. So the new one and then we'll move into the other ones. Yeah. So the new book, and I'm actually, this laptop that I'm recording video from, I have staged on two of them because they're not small books. I'll put this down. And this is the book. So tribe of mentors. It's a big one. It's thick. And that's thick. So the subtitle, title tribe of mentor is subtitle, short life advice

from the best in the world. And in some respects, my last book, Tools of Titans was a warm up for this one to help me determine which questions pulled out the most meaningful, actionable answers from people I'd had on my podcast. Tribe of Mentors is a collection of tactical, practical, bits of advice from 130 people who are the best at what they do. And that ranges from, say, directors like David Lynch to actors, you know, Ben Stiller, Joseph Gordon Levitt, to athletes like Dara Torres, Kelly Slater, most decorated surfer of all time, Ed Cohn, most accomplished powerlifter of all time and so on and so forth, Maria Sharpova and so on, to about 20 billionaires in various areas. And it's all of their playbooks or anything from

business and finance to physical training to grief, existential dilemmas, huge forks in the road, like getting married, having kids or not. And once again, I mean, it's a book that I wanted to write and compile for myself. It is a reference book. It is a choose your own adventure book. So it's not intended to be read A to Z. It's just a buffet. So you can pick and choose and collect tools for your own toolkit. And that is the new book. And I'm really excited about it because I've had a few friends, including friends who've been in past books like Matt Mullenweg, who is considered the lead developer of WordPress, which about 30% of the entire internet runs on and happens to run a company worth more than a billion dollars.

And he was one of the first five people or so to read Tribe of Mentors. He's not in this book. And he said it's the easiest to read book that I've done. And it is by far the easiest within which to spot patterns across many, many different disciplines. So that's the book. Yeah, tribal mentors. I'm really, really happy about it.

And it's time to birth it into the world. I think this show comes out like the week that your book launches. So if you're listening to the show right now, I mean, definitely go get the book. Pick it up. Like I said, I'm not just like, you know, like sucking up to you. Like every one of your books has been huge for me. It does suck up to you. I do.

I do. But like, no, like, no, listen, like, you know how certain books. It's kind of annoying, actually. Certain books. I'm going to keep going. I'm going to keep going. Listen, certain books hit you at a certain point in your life, you know. Like, and like when I read, you know, like, for example, like four hour body.

Like at that point of my life, I really was trying to make this transition to being healthier and caring more about my physical body wanting to live longer. It just hit me right. four-hour work week hit me right when I was at this horrible job that I didn't like. And I applied all the four-hour work week kind of mentalities to my real estate investing. And that's why I quit my job when I was 27. Like I retired, you know, quote unquote retired when I was 27 got out of the horrible job. So like every book you's on. So I'm, I don't know, I'm looking forward to it because of that. Thanks. Thank you for writing. Yeah. Of course. And I mean, writing books is a hard. It's a hard process for me.

I find writing very, very difficult. And this book for whatever reason, just kind of, of flowed. I mean, the pieces came together in a really cool way. So a lot of these people who I've considered demigods since I was a kid would be very difficult to say get on the podcast to do two to four hour podcast. It probably wouldn't happen. But I was able to get them to contribute and or be interviewed for a five to ten page profile of their greatest hits. And it's really been a trip. I'm excited about it. I think it'll put a positive dent in the universe out there. So we'll see.

TBD. But if people want to just get a sample and read some of the chapters, see the list of mentors who are in the book, then they can just check it out at tribe of mentors.com. But otherwise, hey, a lot of good books out. A lot of good books out there. So it's certainly not the only book you can choose. One of the things, I talked about the conference that you had spoken at and that I was at. And I was very skeptical.

I was, you know, in attending this, it's called the summit conference. And it's an ideas conference. And, you know, I didn't really know what that meant. In fact, when I first got there, I somebody walked up to me, he's like, hey, why are you here? And I was like, I'm not sure why I'm here. I'm here to figure out why I'm here, I guess. And it happened to be the guy who had started the conference, one of the Biznau brothers. And I was slightly embarrassed by that to later figure that out.

But I think, and you had kind of dived into this with not Malcolm. but with Brian Grazer. Brian Grazer. You know, getting out there and learning from other people who may not necessarily be in the world that you're in. Studying other people, exploring folks who have different pathways and different ideas is so powerful. And I walked away just, you know, my mind is still spinning kind of like your silent retreat. Although I don't know if I went crazy there. But my mind is still spinning.

and all these ideas are are flowing in my brain and things I want to do and try and test out. And I think that's why this book is so cool, you know, that you can go

and just hear these other people's stories, right? I mean, I read, I've been reading since I was 17, the Forbes 400. Not because I want to be a billionaire. Like I have no interest in that. But I'm fascinated by the stories

of all these people, even if it's like a paragraph, like, hey, this guy turned a small potato farm to become McDonald's biggest distributor or whatever it is. Suddenly your head spins, you get inspired. You're like, wow, I mean, if that guy can do it, I could do kind of anything. So I'm super excited to read the book and just get more stories from people. So there was a book that really inspired me when I was very young.

And I haven't looked at it in ages because it's out of print. But it was called The Young Millionaires. And I think it was published by Entrepreneur Magazine. It was compiled of or comprised of two or three page profiles of young millionaires in every possible imaginable or unimaginable business. I mean, there are people in waste management. There are people making cowboy boots. There are people making, say, cosmetics. And it was so eclectic that it opened my mind to just how closed my mind had been in considering business, right, of what that could be.

And in putting together a tribe of mentors, I very deliberately had that in the back of my head as a model of sorts. And say 90, you know, 90, 95% of the people in the book have not been on the podcast. They're brand new in terms of the cast of characters. Not only that, but yes, there are people in the book that many folks will recognize, right?

The Terry Cruz and co-founders of, you know, Facebook, Twitter, and Salesforce and Pinterest and everything, You can have met Craig's list. The list goes way, way longer in terms of founders and so on. But there are also the names that nobody will recognize. And I get equally excited, if not more excited by those, because you will read, say, a profile of someone like Graham Duncan, who's in the world of finance. People are like, Graham Duncan, what?

I don't, like, who is this? And they read the bio and they're like, I still have no idea who this guy is. And then they read the profile and they get to the end. And they go, holy shit. Wow. I want to meet that guy more than anyone else in the book, right? Or Samin Nostrad, who's a, she's certainly an author, but she's a chef. And some people may have never heard of her. She's the very first profile. And then they read it and they go, wow. Okay, I want to travel to wherever she is just to shake her hand and thank her for her story about how to end a project or a business on your own terms, right? I just want to thank her for that. And I'd say at least half the people in the book are going to be brand new names that people have never recognized.

And that makes me really excited to see what comes of it for sure. And we do that on our podcast. I mean, we'll have you and we'll have somebody who just flipped three houses on the next show. And I think for a listener, that story is equally as powerful if that speaks to them. And they can relate to that person, which is why storytelling is so important. But Brandon, I know you had a question there. Yeah, well, I want to know, you mentioned earlier about, I think it was that friend of yours said that this book was easy to spot patterns in it. I'm wondering if we can talk on that about high, I mean, you've interviewed hundreds of like high achievers on your show.

You obviously have a lot of friends and you're very well networked with high achievers. And, you know, you might even be one yourself. Who knows? But like, what kind of patterns do you see? Like personally, what do you see in these people that consistently outperform the rest of the world? Yeah, I would say that of the people I selected, so there could be a selection bias, but not knowing it going in, more than 80% have some type of mindfulness or meditation practice first thing in the morning. More than 80% across every discipline, which is kind of mind-blowing if you think about it. So we already covered that, so we don't have to belaborate.

Other patterns would be some of the books that they read. So I ask or gift. So I ask every person in the book, what book or books have you gifted the most to other people and why? So there are a number of books and a number of patterns that pop up. In terms of specific books, Victor Frankl's Man Search for Meaning, it's probably the most mentioned. Then you have books that are lesser known like Poor Charlie's Almanac by Charlie Munger, which is really about mental models. For those people who don't know, Charlie Munger is the investing partner of Warren Buffett, the right-hand man. Buffett would say he has the best 62nd mind, meaning fast judgment, in the world. And the list goes on. There are many books that come up, but those are two. And in terms of genres, I would say, since we're talking about, or we can talk about real estate in investing. The best investors seem to have, at least if we're looking at, and we could talk about what this is, but macro investors, people who have to really understand many, many multiple disciplines. And I would put most asset classes squarely in that realm. I mean, if you want to

understand real estate or you want to understand startups, you can't just myopically understand, say, how one startup functions. You have to really understand the ecosystem and how inflation or interest rates can also affect the entire equation. And these guys tend to focus or educate themselves a lot on evolution. They study evolution a lot. What do you mean about that? Are you talking about theory of evolution or are talking about just the way people change? They literally, they read books on evolutionary biology and evolution. Yeah. I wonder why that is. Because ultimately what they are studying is human behavior. Okay. So if they want to

understand the primary drivers, the incentives that are derived from hardwiring, from the code, the software we have in our bodies, then evolution is a good place to start. So that has been very consistent.

The primal mind, right? What are those primal drivers that... The instincts, right, behind it all? Yeah, absolutely. I would say also that another pattern, And in another book that came up was, I think it is better angels, better, let me get the right. Let me get this are better angels of our nature. I always messed up the title or it's Angels of Our Better Nature.

It's a book by Stephen Pinker, which describes the, in effect, how good things are right now. And that despite the news headlines, we are at all time lows related to violence and so on. because it's very easy to fall prey to pessimism and sensationalist headlines and believe that everything is broken, whereas in fact, a lot of things are going very, very well. And I find that top performers actively cultivate optimism or train their eye to see good, and that is the only way they can sustain high performance. over a long period of time. In the four-hour work week, which we're not going to talk a ton on today,

people can go read it obviously. But you talk about that low information diet of getting away from the habit of just reading the news constantly. That was one of the biggest changes I took from that book and I implement still to this day. I do very little news. Do you still follow that? Oh, yeah.

For that same reason. Yeah. I mean, I have my phone here, right, which is on, it's on airplane. Nice. 90% of the day. Certainly at night. And I have no email notifications, no news notifications have gone into settings and turned off. Apple, thank you very much for setting auto notifications for headlines.

No thank you. So I turn those off. And I do not have any newspaper or magazine subscriptions. I do not. I really don't track the news per se. How do I know what's going on in the world then? I mean, like, how could I turn off the news? That's what I do, eight hours a day.

That's what people ask when they hear that. Yeah, the news, I would ask them which headlines they remember from today. Yeah. And I would ask them then, how are you going to, what are you going to do? How are you going to change your behavior? Or what are you going to campaign to change as an agent of change because of these headlines? And chances are there's, the answer is nothing. Yeah.

So I would say that you have three choices with anything. and this is actually, I believe, borrowed from Buddhist scripture, I don't consider myself a Buddhist, but I just spent 10 days surrounded by itself. You can accept, ignore, or change. That's it. Those are your three choices. So don't end up somewhere in between. Don't get ragingly upset about something or complain about something and then do nothing.

Or don't complain at all, accept, or choose to ignore. And for me, I would say that there are a few ways. If you really want to stay informed on current events, number one, the most important things are likely going to be inescapable. Right? Your friends will be talking about them. Your family will be talking about them. You will learn about them. Second is you could use a tool like Nuzzle and use Z-Z-E-L, which I used for a period of time.

I'd no longer use it, but we could talk about why if you'd like. Nuzzle allows you to, it will identify the people you follow or interact with most on Twitter and then aggregate the news stories that they most as a group post or respond to. And you get a digest on a daily or say weekly basis that can then keep you informed on current events if you so choose. Now, my experience was that quickly devolved into, mudslinging and acid spitting related to politics. So I opted out. And I don't feel like I'm any worse for it.

I do have conversations about the state of the world with my friends who I view as intelligent and good at filtering and parsing information. So I'll have a three-hour dinner with someone I view as very self-aware and also macroware. And it's just not important, 99.9% of the time. Now, there are certain cases where, yes, an action is required or behavioral change is required. Or there's a legislative change, say, in the city where I live. I happen to live in Austin, Texas now. I'm no longer in Silicon Valley.

Or there is some type of natural disaster. For instance, if Houston had happened the flooding while I were in Austin, which was not the case, then, and I certainly would have heard of it. I would not have had to go to the CNN homepage every day or have alerts on my phone to have heard about that. everyone would have been talking about it, then I would have taken some type of action. But the vast majority, I mean, I've been doing this now for our work we had. It's 10th anniversary last year. And thanks. And I, which happened just to talk about a crazy coincidence, the 10th year anniversary to

the day, April 24th, coincided with me getting on stage at TED on the main stage in the first session, having it broadcast, I think thousands of movie theaters around the world. to talk about how I almost committed suicide in college, which very few people knew about. So it's really trippy on the 10th anniversary of this mega bestselling, millions of copies sold in 40 plus languages book to get up and say, here's a photo of me looking really happy. That was taken two weeks before I ended up in the back of my minivan deciding to kill myself. And that was a trip. We can come back to that if you like.

But the information, I don't know what to tell you. I, the more, the less attention I pay to the day to day hysteria, the better my results are in every area of my life. My relationships, my finances, my contribution, everything is better. Yeah. So for me, it's been an easy, it's been an easy move. What I find is that I used to use, sorry, Josh, I used to use the news as like was my default. In other words, you know, like everyone has a default. Like when you're bored or when you're whatever, you have a default.

Mine was Apple News. I pull it up and I just scroll through. And then that moved to Facebook after I got rid of the news. And then I installed the, what's it, the Facebook, like the news feed blocker. I had that. I still have on my desktop. It's great. But then it turned to Instagram.

And now today it's a little more Instagram. So it's like I want to always recognize what are my defaults and then trying to pull back from that. Not the defaults are bad, but, you know, if I'm not listening to my little, not watching my little girl take her first steps because I'm on my phone. problem. For sure. And that's the biggest issue, right? I mean, you know, like so many, so many people that we speak to through the show and your audience,

too, you know, these are people who have a realization and recognition that they want to change something, right? They want to change something upon them. And I think the biggest thing that most people, the easiest thing that they can do is start changing their time and their use of time. and you had talked about the news. And I did that through four-hour work week as well. I still consume way too much news, but I have no alerts.

I shut all the alerts. I have no email alerts on my phone. When I'm with my kids and my family, 98% of the time my phone is away. We're out to dinner. My phone's away. I was shocked to hear Jeff Bezos, arguably one of the three or four most powerful people on the planet. when he's out adventuring or even, you know, doing his thing, he doesn't, he doesn't respond to his phone. If somebody needs to get to him, they'll, they'll get to him, right? So why is it that we normal

non-superhumans are just like so reactive, so responsive, always have to check, always have to check. It's FOMO has just invented our lives, you know, is coming and taken over everything that we do. And I would challenge people to stop and look at where your time. is being spent. Download moments on your phone. Yeah, I was going to say moment is amazing. You know that, Tim? I do, yeah. Figure it out.

See where you're spending your time and chart it, log it. Like, hey, what do you do for the next week? Where is all your time being spent at work? Where's your time being spent at home? You'll find that you're probably wasting, you know, dozen, dozen, two dozen hours across a week or two, doing nothing productive at all. And I would also build on that and just say that the step number one to being less reactive

is recognizing when you're being reactive. And I'd like to tie it back to say the 10 and 10 with Headspace. It helps you when you're like, oh, when you reach for your phone in that instant, when your fingers are an inch away from your phone to say, oh, wait, I don't need to do that right now. and then you can pattern interrupt. And Brandon, you were mentioning defaults. There are few ways that you can pattern interrupt that are quite clever, actually, and based in some good science that come from two people who are in tribal mentors,

actually, two women who are very, very, very smart. You have Ariana Huffington, right? So serial entrepreneur, very, very brilliant woman. I've spent time with her. she will on a regular basis. If it's not in your calendar, it's not real, by the way, folks. So you can schedule, say, like, every two weeks and just make it recurring,

scramble apps on phone. Scramble apps on phone just means, say, in an iPhone layout or any other phone at this point, that's touchscreen, to move the apps around. So they're no longer in predictable places. That's a great tip. That's it. So that's number one. Number two, this is also really, really.

really effective is from Whitney Cummings, who's a stand-up comedian, does a lot more than that, but is a superstar stand-up comedian. And she learned about this from a scientific study she came across, turning your phone to grayscale so that it's no longer color. Just heard that a couple days ago. Yeah, it will cut down on your social media consumption, especially say anything highly visual like Instagram, in some cases, 50% or more. Yeah. Have you done it yet? Because you just You have turned it to gray scale. No, no, I have. Mine is caller right now,

but I go through periods of gray scale. And the, I mean, my phone, I didn't use my phone for 14 days. So my phone's sort of on status quo right now. That's another thing you're not allowed to do on silent retreat. No phone, no devices, no books, no nothing. But some people locked their phones in the manager's office because they didn't trust themselves, which I give them credit for.

So I have done the gray scale. It does work. But once you understand what, once you are aware of your default behaviors, then you can choose which to engage with, which to change, which to embrace, for instance, and which not to embrace. So I happen to these days really enjoy Instagram. And I have rules for myself related to Instagram. So in the down moments, if I have five minutes, I'm allowed to check Instagram. when I'm not allowed to check Instagram and this is why my phone doesn't

onto airplane mode before I walk upstairs bedrooms are upstairs is when I sit in bed and I'm like oh yeah I'm just gonna take a look see what my friends are up to and then like an hour and a half later it's like oh my God not only have I been giving myself

almost guaranteed insomnia by staring at a screen but I just lost an hour of sleep because I'm looking at like someone like a kid in Libya who just scored soccer goal on super athletes or whatever it is. And then I'm like, oh, that's great. And then I flip it. And I'm like, oh, that chick's really hot. Okay. Oh, wait, but her friend looks hot too. I should

click on that. And then it's like, oh my God. All right. So like, how am I going to explain to my first meeting tomorrow that the reason I'm so tired because I was looking at like suicide girls and soccer videos on Instagram. That's not a good, not a great way to open the meeting. So. So one thing, just to throw in real quick, I got this app moment. So if you look like, I've been on my phone 48 hours today, but yesterday was, you know, two hours, 24. But anyway, and before that was four, three and four, but I was on the road. So I turned it off. But anytime over an hour, as soon as I hit to an hour, it starts just buzzing constantly and flashing this message. And so I have to shut it off. So that's my, that's my, uh, stopping my default. So if I'm on it at night, it better be

worth it for that buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz. Oh, yeah. So another, uh, I was just going to say one more tool there is a product called rescue time. Yep. Yep. And freedom is another app you can use to literally lock you off of Wi-Fi access, which is something that Neil Strauss, a friend of mine, eight-time New York Times Best Selling author uses quite a bit. So those are a few tools. Sorry to interrupt. No, that's okay. Please. I mean, this is your show, man. So, um, well, not really, but, that's mine, but all right, we're, we're, we're, that's Brandon's too. Come on. We're in, I, I'm in the middle of reading this excellent book right now called Principles by Ray Dalio, and I think you had him on, you had him in the book.

I put my shelf right there. Yeah, it's fantastic. And as you were talking about the phone and your operating manual, so to speak, I started thinking in my head, okay, those are your principles. Like for me, if I go to dinner with my wife, the phone is not out. You know, when I go to my bedroom, my phone never goes to my bedroom ever, ever. I don't care. That's just, that's my place of Zen, right?

My private place. And so I think it's really important for people to create these. operating manual, so to speak, for how they run their lives. I think it helps you gain a sense of control. That's everything we've talked about for the past 20 minutes, right? Creating some sense of control because, you know, it's hard, right? It's hard to stop yourself from going on Instagram. So make it gray. I mean, we, so what principles would you say are the most important and powerful ones that you run your life through? That's a big question. Well, I should say that they, they, they, morph over time. And I don't use the word evolve very deliberately because I think that our priorities

and our focus and we as human beings change over time. So it makes sense that in certain cases the principles would change. But if I think of a few that are reasonably constant, let's say number one, it's not how you do things. It's what you do. So in other words, if effectiveness is doing the right things and efficiency is doing things right, it's far more important to choose the right things. Even if you are a B student, but you choose the right things,

you're going to get much further ahead. I mean, 10x, 100x,000x, then if you're an A student and you choose less important things and do them really, really well. Is that like I got inbox zero, but I still hate my life? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, actually, inbox zero is a great example. So I'll, I'll show you something. Sounds a bit like the one thing type of stuff, figure out your one thing in focus, essentialism. Yeah, so I'm not sure if you guys can see this. This is actually creepy, but just I'm going to come back to the principles.

So I've never had mail notifications or any mail account associated on my phone. And somehow, Apple, when I upgraded iOS, intuited how to associate mail, which creeps me out. But nonetheless, it gives you an idea. So people talk about inbox zero, inbox zero, inbox zero, it becomes a this sort of fundamentalist religion of Inbox Zero. I don't know if you guys can see that, but... 346,661 emails. Those are my unread email.

That's why you never call me back. Damn. Yeah. Yeah. So that which is not worth doing is not worth doing well. I think that is Warren Buffett. But effectiveness over efficiency in all things. So for instance, there are case studies.

and biographical accounts of different generals or wartime leaders being sick or disabled to the point where they can only work, really get out of bed and work function for an hour or two at a time. And yet some of these people were the most revered, highly respected, effective people across the board in say a given conflict, even compared to the people who were putting in 20 hours a day. And given that precedent, so for instance, I came back from this whole retreat and the event, this, the other thing, didn't get very good sleep for a few days. Then I had a really full on day yesterday, immediately after getting back to Austin, really, really full, full, full day. And so today it's like, all right, got a ton of sleep, got up, got blindsided by a few things, as you guys know.

And I was like, oh, shit, okay. Let me move this, that, and the other thing around. So I won't get to any type of self-directed work until, I don't know, 3 p.m. And I'm not freaking out. I'm not going to say I don't always freak out. But I'm not freaking out because I've spent the last two months defining and quantifying very, very precisely the most impactful levers that I can pull related to, say, book launch. It's like I know exactly what I will do with the time that I have remaining today, period. And even if I wanted to say, well, semi-making this up, but let's say I wanted to mail out

40 advanced copies to people who actually appear in Tripamenters today, and I only get to half of it, that is still going to do more than me trying to chip away at my 340,000 unread email, even though for most people, this is going to be the pain of having this on their phone is going to be greater in the short term than the perceived benefit long term of mailing out these books. So forging that discipline, I'd say, is like what I think about a lot. Other principles. That was a good answer, by the way. That was great.

Thank you. Thank you. By the way, while you're thinking, that's what I took, like the four-hour work week, I think, you know, some people hear the title and they're like, oh, you know, I can't work four-hour. I don't know there's a lot of like probably sure I don't want to say criticism but you know like people that's a horrible book scammy book you know that yeah anyway but like that's what I took from it was like those concepts like we talked about earlier like anyway so I just encourage people read the book if you haven't it's not a manual for exactly how to go work four hours a week yeah no it's it's

a handbook for effectiveness yeah and treating time as a non-renewable resource so I suppose that's another principle is whenever possible. And I'm in a position where this is easier now, but even in the very early days, I looked at a lot of ways to do this. In other words, like, where can I buy time? Where can I spend money instead of spending my time? Even if it's, even if it's, well, even if it's, say, $5 on Fiverr, right? There's a website called Fiverr, if it's $5 on Fiver to find someone to do a voiceover of several sentences for X, Y, and Z, right? As opposed to, or let's actually, I'll give you a more concrete example. I mean, these days I have employees and I have a team and I have other things to help,

but let's just say it's early days. It's just me. But if I ever exists and I need to find someone to provide me with a voiceover of 10 seconds of some type. And let's just hypothetically say that it costs $5. All right. So in one scenario, I could do what perhaps my impulse would be, which would be to go on to Fiverr and to listen to the samples of 100 different voiceover artists and then to choose

five or three and then to send them the $5. All right. Maybe the better use of time is to say find a task rabbit. Okay. So you use task rabbit to find an assistant who can help for an hour and you say, all right, you have $500 or $250, whatever your budget is, $100, just to pay. You just pick 20 and have all of them do it. The exact same voiceover and I'll use the best one. That would be an example of using money to buy time. And you don't do that in necessarily all places with the things I enjoy. I will invest time because I view that as a worthwhile investment.

But viewing time, at least as far as we know now as a non-renewable resource, compared with, say, money, which is certainly renewable in many respects, I think is a fundamental lens through which I also view a lot of what I do. Well, if I could tie that a little bit. Yeah, I want to hide that into real estate a little bit. You know, a lot of our listeners here are obviously interested in, you know, buying rental properties or flipping houses or whatever. So here's how I kind of look at that.

You know, a lot of people will write letters. We call them direct mail marketing letters or whatever yellow letters. or whatever yellow letters or whatever. You know, they want to send out a thousand letters. So they'll sit down and handwrite letters for a month. I mean, every day, two, three hours of handwriting letters. And when you're getting started, you have zero, I mean, no money at all. Maybe you got to start that way.

But what I find is the, as soon as I started looking at my business like that, how can I, I, I like that you said that. Where can I buy time having other people do things like that? Like, everything just becomes so much more efficient or more like, and maybe effective. Like my time, I spend maybe three hours total buying a rental property. like beginning and middle of the end, I'll spend me three hours. Now that spread out over a three-month period, but it allows me to spend more time with my family, more time with my daughter and more time looking for other real estate deals, doing those

few things that I can do. Yeah. Or just, for instance, not handling a rental property yourself and working with a management company. Yep. I've been shifting all my stuff over for that exact reason. I'm like, I don't want to go handle that. Or, for instance, you know, there are times within which, well, it's going to sound redundant, but there are periods of time within which each hour is at a premium.

So, for instance, if I have a book launch, which I do, and we are going to be doing a lot of graphic design for various assets, well, I could go back and forth with a given design firm and have them work out or potentially not work out. And it would also consume my time. And even though I might think I have the best eye for choosing the winning versions of these assets, let's just save her Facebook, Instagram,

and so on. Say, all right, well, how can I help someone else to get as close as possible

to having that eye? And the answer might be make it redundant. So I spend more money, but I have someone who say 90% as good as I am at choosing the right assets,

but I have them retain three or four different firms. And so it's in a way wasteful, right, in quotation marks. But it means that we have

four firms, a varying speed of completion. We're definitely going to have assets on time. And now I'm going to have winners from four different firms or freelancers. I still use 99 designs quite a bit, which is very inexpensive. And boom, I'm going to get the result that I wanted. And I don't need to be personally involved. Yeah.

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We are at a moment where, you know, we're year 10 of a seven, typically seven year cycle in real estate. And markets like mine, Denver, L.A., where Brandon lives, I don't know if I would call that a market, but Austin's been hot.

Yeah. Right. Where are you looking, if you are currently looking? What kind of markets are you looking at in order to find deals in order to also protect yourself against the eventual down cycle that is sure to come soon. All right.

So my answers to these questions may be highly, highly dissatisfying, but I'll give it a shot nonetheless. There's certain asset classes where I feel like I have an informational advantage, right? So I remember one very, very high level investor. I mean, someone who's made hundreds of millions, billions of dollars told me once. There are really three types of advantages you can have in any type of investing. You can have an informational advantage where you have better information. You can have an analytical advantage where you have tools or frameworks or approaches that allow you to reach different conclusions or insights compared to other people using the same information. Or you can have a behavioral advantage like Warren Buffett being Spock.

He does not emotionally respond like a normal person, even in personal relationships. The guy is very uniquely hardwired, which allows him not to succumb to Mr. Market, right? To sell when things are falling or to irrationally buy when things are going up. Okay, with all that context, there are certain sandboxes in which I play where I have cultivated over a long period of time and informational advantage. That would include startups, so specifically early stage technology startups that would also, include certain things like cryptocurrency. I just have better information than most people. Not all, but most. This allows me to compete and invest reasonably heavily in those areas. But those are highly, highly, highly, highly volatile asset classes and compounding the problem,

early stage startups are illiquid typically for a very long period of time. I mean, best case scenario, you have a home run. It's probably going to be a liquid for seven to ten years. That can create some significant cash flow constraints or problems, I should say. Constraints makes it sound very pretty. Okay. Then I have capital that I've been able to make liquid or earn via other businesses that I own, like the podcast or books or any number of other things that I might do. And I have a decision as to where I should allocate those funds.

The vast majority of funds that I have coming in sit, you're going to, you guys will not like this. Sit in cash. Cash. The vast majority, maybe you would like it, but the vast majority sits in cash. And there are people who feel as strongly that that is stupid as there are a handful of people who think very strongly that that is smart. There are people like Seth Clarmine, legendary investor who always has, almost always, but right now also has a very, very large cash reserve. For several reasons, he doesn't want to be forced to liquidate positions for cash flow to take advantage of opportunities. So I have had the ability recently to capitalize on undervalued assets where I have informational advantage because I have a cash reserve. This is getting

to real estate. And then the next tranche of my investment goes back into building my machine. And the machine is podcast, email list, anything that allows me to invite people into my world so that I communicate with them directly or semi-directly, because that is a force multiplier for almost everything that I do, including bolstering the informational advantage that I have for investing, right? So it's sort of self-reinforcing. Okay. Next, I invest in a handful of asset classes that I think are hopefully either inversely correlated or uncorrelated to places where I am heavily invested, like tech startups. And my assumptions could be wrong.

They could be right, which is why I depend there on a behavioral advantage. Knox Plan. So for artwork, for real estate, and that would include structures and land, I'm only buying things that I would be happy to hold for decades. And that means, in my case, I also get personal utility out of them. So I'm buying purely residential. I'm not buying commercial. And real estate, artwork, there aren't many other categories where that would apply.

But short, I suppose the short answer would be that it's a place to park money where I anticipate I won't lose in excess of X percentage. That's a dangerous assumption, but nonetheless, it's an assumption. and if I have, for instance, I got my face ripped off in real estate in 2008 in San Jose, California. I bought at a peak and got my face ripped off. But if I had had the cash flow and the discipline and the 30,000 foot view to hold onto it, I would have made millions of dollars on that property had I held it until, say, a few years ago. Sure. Millions.

I would have made millions of dollars on that property. But I lost $200,000. and then rented it out, hired a management company, found it to be a headache, and ultimately it felt like too much psychic drag for me, so I sold it at a loss. I don't actually regret having done that, though, because I made the jump, the philosophical transition to realizing that I could make that $150,000 back more quickly another way, as opposed to investing my cognitive cycles into thinking about this piece of real estate in California. But at this point now, with more cushion, more discipline and also more of a port looking at it as more of a portfolio theory approach,

I'm perfectly happy to hold real estate that I own indefinitely, effectively. So maybe not the tactical nitty gritty that is most useful to your listeners, but that's how I think about it. Here's why I think that's, it's really great. Because most of our, most of our episodes are guys, you know, guys or girls who come in and they say, I've got no money. I hate my job. I just need to quit my job and I need to find a way to get some income coming in.

And so we tell their stories and that's fantastic. And I was in their shoes when I was, you know, young 20s. But there are people listening right now who make good incomes right now. They make good income from whether it's a job, a business of, you know, book writing, podcasting, whatever, right? There's a whole lot of people out there. And who's talking to them? Like, it's not often you hear like, how should you go do your real estate, you know, for the guy who's got. So anyway, I think it's a good approach.

I mean, you don't need to make your money in real estate. estate, you can hold your money in real estate. I think that's great. Yeah. And I would also say that I think the thought process that I'm using is widely applicable to people, even if they don't have a lot of money right now. Because I'm thinking about, in some cases, you know, where to invest versus where to hold money. I'm thinking about asymmetrical risk reward. I'm thinking about liquidity and lack of liquidity, these are all concepts that behoove you to understand, even if you have $100 to spend, whether it's $100 or $100 million, the process of making very good decisions is very similar. And, you know, my father was a real estate broker and individual investor for 30 years

and had really next to no money to speak of. I mean, I did not grow up. I mean, I did not grow up. with a lot of money. And nonetheless, he developed very narrow expertise in a very specific geographic area. He knew everything that was happening. And he could bide his time and wait for situations where properties were undervalued for whatever reason and purchase. So he was a value investor in a very tiny, I mean, we're talking about like a 20 square mile area and not even, much smaller. And so you can certainly do that. And I did that in startups. Yeah. Right. We talk about that using, I forget who dubbed it Brandon on the show. Unfair advantage. Unfair advantage. We've mentioned that a few times. And that's great. And the idea of cash,

I mean, I look at the stock market. I think it's overheated. I am in the stock market a little bit. I look at housing and particularly real estate and where I live. And I wouldn't want to jump in today because I think we're just at some weird place. I think it's, you know, unless, again, I could find some undervalued assets, which they're out there. They're in every market. You could find them anywhere. You've got to do a lot of work to find them. And some of them will require a whole hell of a lot of work to get them to where they need to go.

And the question is, what is your tolerance? what is your interest in doing that? What is your time worth, so to speak? And is there another place to park it? So, you know, I've been sitting in a lot of cash with the same philosophy, which is just right now wait and watch and see what opportunities kind of come out. And I think one of the important things for folks who might be listening is you don't find opportunities by going through Facebook and by watching the news, you find them by networking. You find them by creating relationships. You find them by getting

out there and spending your time on those tasks. And so you may not be diving into something today, but if you're putting your time in to do the work to create those opportunities for tomorrow, that's just as valuable, I believe, as anything else. What would you say about that? I would say I agree. And I would also emphasize that... Damn, I wanted to argue with you. Let's disagree. No, we can, sure we can find things to disagree about. But I would say that on top of that, it's very helpful to ask yourself better questions. And I spend the vast majority of my time thinking about questions because thinking is really asking yourself questions and answering them

in your own head. So for instance, if you were... to, I will actually take a counterpoint to one of the things that you said. I'm not, I don't think you'll necessarily disagree with this. But if you look at historically, Warren Buffett was a, or is, a value investor. So he was looking for undervalued assets, specifically public equities for the most part, that he could buy so that he had a high margin of safety, right? And he missed a lot of opportunities with fairly priced high growth companies as a result of that. He wasn't willing to pay retail, right? He was always looking for the metaphorical,

like 30% off sign in the window. Wasn't that also, though, because he never understood it. He didn't want to invest in something he didn't fully understand. Wasn't that part of the puzzles? That's part of it, but it wasn't just tech. So he isn't aversion to tech, as it does Charlie Munger. But there are high growth companies, I mean, Domino's Pizza would be a good example, actually.

High growth companies that fall outside of bleeding edge technology. that Warren missed because he had an inflexible criteria related to highly discounted, undervalued assets. And then Charlie Munger comes along. And many of their best investments have been paying a fair retail price for something that they've analyzed to the extent they know has a lot of runway to go. I would take it even a step further and feel free to push back on this because this is where people could get themselves.

in a lot of trouble. But if I'm willing to hold something for a long period of time and I'm buying residential for a home that I love that I will live in and there's very limited inventory, what I might ask myself is, what is everyone else looking for? And the answer may be that everyone is looking for underpriced property. But what if I looked for property that was currently in relatively uncontended space because it's 10 to 20% more than it should be. But I think there's the possibility that it doubles over time. Is that a good investment or is it not? And it depends on many, many factors, your whole time, et cetera.

But several of my best real estate investments have been made following that logic. Where rather than competing with many other people looking for the same profile of home, I decided to look at homes that I felt in the relatively shorter intermediate term could stand the possibility of doubling in value that were only slightly overpriced. Therefore, there weren't as many bidders. And I mean, as you guys, well, maybe you guys haven't heard this, but I think it was Henry Ford, when in doubt, a tribute to Henry Ford, Mark Twainer, Abraham Lincoln, but he said, like, I'll let you set the price if I can set the terms.

Yeah. And I was able to make some fantastic investment. that have led to millions of dollars to gains. And part of the beauty of that is I didn't misread my affinity for those properties. I haven't sold any of them. Actually, I'm in the process of selling one of them, which is a long story. I don't really want to, but it's very helpful for me to sell it right now for a lot of reasons. But yeah, I love all of them.

I mean, I would hold them indefinitely. I think really quick, I think, dive in on this too, Brandon. I think the argument, one of the things that we try to preach at bigger pockets, if we preach anything, you know, Dave Ramsey preaches the no debt thing. We preach, be careful with speculating, right? Oh, I agree. Oh, 100% agree. And the question is, where's the line between speculation and buying something that you love that you are going to get utility out of and hold on to? And so I, I, my wife and I had this thing. We go to the mountains.

We love skiing. You know, we have the passes. We bring our kids up and we really want, we want to get a condo up in the mountains. And we went up there and found this great condo right, right in the place that we were looking. And, you know, I started getting into investor mode. And I'm doing the math. And I'm like, all right. So we, you know, we're probably going to go up X amount of time.

The rest of the time I want to be able to Airbnb. And with management fees and all this other stuff, you know, we're still, because the HOA fees up there are ludicrous. I'm net negative X, right? And I can't get my head wrapped around this. My wife is like, we're going to enjoy it. We're going to get utility. You know, there's only a limited supply.

You know, oh, in 10, 15, 20 years, there is zero doubt in my mind, zero doubt in my mind. This thing will double triple quadrant, whatever it is, right? But I can't get that thing to cash flow today. And so I can't get myself over it. And I can't get myself to buy it. You can pay cash for it. Then it's going to cash flow. Well, exactly.

So that question, I think my quote counter argument is not really a counter argument. It's more, where's the fuzzy gray line? I would say, don't speculate. I would say, you know, you can do informed speculation things like building in the path of progress, right? You know, Boulder and Denver are going to connect at some point 15 years ago. You can see it coming. Well, that's probably a good area to be investing in. You'll probably get appreciation.

but I would say don't bet on appreciation by a property that cash flows in that area, and you're going to win, win, win. Well, a lot of that comes to also your financial position, right? The three of us, yeah, the three of us can handle throwing money at something having, oh, we lost 100 grand, it sucks. But like, the guy who's got no money, got $8 an hour job, that's a little different. Yeah, totally. And I should also note that, you know, I am doing my homework and running a lot of numbers on

these. So I didn't. Oh, no. Yeah, yeah. I know. I said that at some point, which I don't think I did. So I'm looking at net population growth. I'm looking at, for instance, in the case of, say, Austin, which is very hot, very expensive. I'm looking at neighborhoods. I'm looking at the population growth and how the infrastructure will sustain or not sustain that. And if, say, MOPAC or some of these highways don't sustain it, what then happens to migration and purchase patterns? Where are people going to go? Where are Apple and other large companies buying offices and how does that change the migratory patterns of humans in and around Austin? If Austin itself becomes too expensive, which many would argue already has, where do people go? Where are the artists currently going?

Is Waco a good place to invest? A, B, C, D, and A. But the people who are drawn to Austin are not going to move to Houston. It's just not going to be the case. It's a very unlikely transition. So I'm running through all those scenarios and talking to people who are well versed in each of them, people who understand pending, say, regulatory changes in Austin. So I'm absolutely doing my best to ensure that I have some type of informational advantage,

but I'm also prepared to weather the storm if my assumptions are incorrect, right? So you think you could do the Buffett thing and kind of Superman through all the ups and downs? With real estate, absolutely, because it's, huge pain in the ass to sell real estate with for me. But with public equities, it's too impulse friendly. I just need to go into my account. Hit himself. Boom. And I've screwed myself so many times by selling. I'm really good at buying things at the right time. I'm not good at selling public equities at the right time. And I know that about myself. So I've locked, I've put on the handcuffs to prevent myself from having the ability to do that. But with real estate, there's a few

fundamental differences. There are many fundamental differences between equities and real estate. One is, I derive pleasure from daily use of real estate, which offsets the sort of buy, sell manic depression that can affect a lot of people. Secondly, is that the process of buying or selling is more involved. So it's like we just discussed, less impulse friendly. I'm very, very, very, I operate in asset classes like that, very, very, very. very well, which is part of the reason why the illiquidity of startup investments has suited me because I do a ton of homework up front. I make an irrevocable decision and then it's done. You cannot sell. You are locked in for the full ride. And if I had had the ability to sell those,

I would have shot myself in the foot nine times out of 10. So it was a very unique profile of asset class that allowed me to succeed despite my weaknesses. I like that. Are you buying cash or when you buy a real estate, do you get a mortgage on it? Or do you just pay? I've done both. Okay. Why do you ask? I'm just curious because, you know, like, it goes back to the if, like Josh was saying, right,

if he buys his condo, if he was going to lose a lot of money every month because he has got massive mortgage payment, it might not be the best idea. But if you buy a property and you pay all cash for it, you have no mortgage. You're going to be making money every month that you were, if you rent it out. Now I was just sitting there, that's different. But, yeah, I have a few. So I don't, I really don't like people touching my stuff, even if it's just walls. So I don't.

I've rented before. I just don't like renting. I just don't like it. No, no, no, but that's me, right? So I would much rather in, and I'm also buying in places where smart people like to live, almost always. So my friends are visiting these places. So it gives me joy to say, hey, stay at my house and you can use everything. Do you have anything in Hawaii? Because I'm going to Hawaii. I do not have to. Shucks. You would have to be a friend. I'm working on it. You know, I do not have anything in why, but mortgage in some cases where I feel like I may have opportunities where I can get a higher return on my capital in the near term. I really, I'm people think of me or some people think of me as a risk taker. I do not think of myself that way at all. I think about risk mitigation

all the time. I mean, every day I'm thinking about how to decrease various risks. All the time, all the time. And there are many famous examples of people I interviewed Richard Branson. I've met him a number of times. He is first and foremost a master at decreasing the possible downside, even though he plays the part of the flamboyant superadventurer, which he also is. The man thinks about how to cap the downside all the time, as do I. So it's the job of the CEO, I think, is risk mitigation. Yeah. I'd be curious to hear what your favorite investment books are. But there are, I think principles is a very good read. Yeah, the speculation, so I would say that speculation to me sort of infers lack of

informational advantage and that it's very, very dangerous. When people ask me, for instance, how should I start an angel investing in tech companies? And I say, you shouldn't. Best way to start angel investing is to not do it. where are you? They're like, oh, I live in Cleveland. I'm like, okay, do you have insider access to all of the inner machinations of the startup world? Because if you don't, you're going to get your face ripped off.

More often than not, certainly. And the vast majority of your money is going to go to zero. Yes. That's not a game that most people can stomach. For whatever reason, I am well suited to capitalize on my strengths and also protect myself. from my weaknesses in early stage tech investing, right? But I recognize that does not transfer automatically to a bunch of other areas, including real estate.

So I require a different model to make real estate work for it, which it didn't in my early days, because I had the wrong view for me. I was looking for a really fast turnaround. And as soon as things went sideways, I panicked and sold at a very inopportune time. At a time when I really didn't actually, I didn't need the money. So it's not like I was locked into a financially untenable position. I could afford the mortgage, even though the property was underwater. But my model was off.

My principles were off. Yeah. Makes sense. That's why bigger pockets actually exists. I mean, for the exact same reason with me, which was, you know, I found some great properties that were extremely discounted that I was going to make a ton of money on. And if I hold on to those for the next 20, 30, 40 years, I would have. But the same thing, the machinations, all the chaos, I wasn't ready for that.

And so I began to fail. And I didn't like failing. And I needed answers on how to not fail. And so I created this entity to help me not fail. And it's helped millions and millions of people as a result. So I guess my failure, everybody here is excited about my failures. I'm always excited when you fail, Josh. Thanks, man.

Thanks, man. You're really supportive. I appreciate that about you. You know, you'd ask about investing books. Warren Buffett Speaks is, you know, is one of the books that I love. For me in real estate, Richest Man in Babylon was hands down the epic book. It just, I don't know, it just changed the way I thought, not just in real estate, but how I deal with my kids and how we save and how we put money away and, you know,

portfolio-sizing all that we have and what we do. But I think it's interesting. I mean, your theory, this is show 254. and every single show we've had, somebody's had their own theory. And there's no wrong or right way unless you're, I think wrong is speculating. I would say, it's not even wrong because, you know, frankly, if you're, if you've got the ability to take some assets and say, you know what, I could be throwing this in Blackchap, Jack, buying lottery tickets, I'm going to throw a hundred grand on property because I could afford to lose it, go to zero, or, or maybe I'll make a ton of money. I guess it's fine. It's wrong if that's all, everything you have and you've mortgaged your family and your life. And it's a gamble, right? You're, you're, you're on black. But I think it's great.

I mean, you know, buy property that that you can find utility from. And, you know, over time, you'll that'll work or it won't. And you'll probably evolve anyway and find other other pathways in real estate that are also of interest. Yeah. Agreed. All right. I'm going to, I want to shift a couple of more questions before we get to the end in segment of the show. What do you think the most misunderstood thing about you and what you write? I mean, starting with four-hour work week all the way through the newest books. Like, what do you think people misunderstand about you? It's a good question. Thank you. I would say it's generally a misconception based on titles. So they believe that I don't find value in hard work. I have no problem with

hard work as long as it's applied to the right things. I think that it's more often that not that people choose the wrong things to invest that hard work into. So I do have, I do have a problem with mistaking motion for progress. Not the same thing. And I do have a problem with indiscriminate action doing a lot of things, which is in and of itself often a form of laziness, because you haven't done the hard thinking, you haven't taken your time to clarify the priorities or ask yourself, for instance, if you're looking at your to do list, and I do this all the time, which one of the these, if completed, will make the rest easier or irrelevant. Right?

And in that way, you're able to sequence the dominoes, so you don't have to knock down a thousand different dominoes. You just flick the first one. You take the time, though, to surgically determine which that first is. I have no problem with hard work. And in fact, part of the reason I had to go through the entire harrowing journey and all the nervous breakdowns and so on that led to the four-hour work week is that I can outwork almost anyone.

I have an absurdly superhuman work capacity. I mean, I can, if people want to, like, go head to head, like, they just do not know really what I'm capable of because I don't talk about it a lot because I think it is a, as much as it can be a superpower, it can also be a highly self-destructive, abusive impulse. But it's like, oh, yeah, you want to go two weeks on three hours of sleep a night and work 20 hours a day? Like, I can do it. Can you? Like, trust me. Like, I can go for it. But that is not the badge I want to wear unless it is well placed.

And there are times when I will pull out the big guns and not necessarily do that, but I will pull out the big guns and really invest a lot of time, say, in book writing. Yeah. Like when I'm on book deadline, I am writing the book. That is all I am doing, with the exception of self-care, like working out and sauna and getting out in the sun ideally and so on. But biggest misconception is that I don't know the value of hard work. I do know the value of hard work when it's applied to the right things.

I would argue conversely that many people don't realize the worthlessness of hard work when it's applied to the wrong things. I've actually had numerous people tell me that about you that you are the hardest worker they know. Like I've had numerous people say, like, Tim is the hardest worker I've ever met. Yeah, when I pull off, yeah, when I take off the rate, limiter. Yeah. No, I can, I can, I can throw it down for sure. I would say it's important for for people, because there you're not, there are a lot of people. I tend to fall in that camp like you. And it can be extremely, extremely self-destructive. And I like to tell my, my story, because it's a caution. It's a cautionary tale. What, what you can do when you get so hyper-focused on work. And sometimes you don't even

look up, you know, you can get caught in all the details. And instead of looking from a thousand feet up. And I went eight years without taking a day off. That was stupid. Like what, like, I mean, why would you do that? Well, I know now, you know, I was so focused on winning and working hard, but I wasn't working on the right things. I probably could have gotten there way the hell quicker if I was smart about it, but I was obsessed in the work. And so. Well, it becomes your, it becomes your identity. It does. Your capacity to work harder than the next person, becomes your identity. And that is not a good identity to be wedded to.

That's terrible. You should be wedded to results, not to how much anguish you can tolerate to produce a given result. All right. So let's use that as a transition here. You've produced a lot of results. I try. Looking, you know, looking forward towards some date in the future, what do you want

written on your gravestone? I would say a teacher who always wanted his students to exceed him. I like it. I like that. That's great. Yeah, that's it. My goal with all of my books is to make myself obsolete as quickly as possible to provide people with toolkits that they can use and tweak and make better than I could have even conceived of.

And so my biggest high is when someone, say, reads the four-hour body as one example, with all the physical experiments. And they show me how they far exceeded what I did, which many people thought was ludicrous and unbelievable, right? They're like, oh, yeah, well, this like zero two marathon in 12 weeks thing, I did it in eight weeks, and here's how I did it. And here are the changes that I made. Or this that you put in about learning to swim or improving vertical jump or losing fat loss. Like, here's how I helped my mother lose 200 pounds in X period of time. And I changed this one element. Nothing makes me happier than hearing those stories.

Yeah. That's awesome. I love it. That's great. Love it. Well, let's shift to you here. I want to go one more question. I want to have it written here.

Before we moved to what we call our fire round and then famous four, those are quick sections of the end. How do you, I like to ask people the last, like this section, I like to ask people, where are they headed next? In other words, what's the next five, ten, 20 years of their investing look like? But I want to twist that a little bit for you. I want to know, like, how do you balance ambition with being content and being happy? Like, do you continue, I do you think you'll continue to produce more and more books because you're ambitious? Or will you just say, you know what? I'm happy.

I'm good. My word's been out there. I think in the last five years I've paid, this is the crazy part. In the last five years, I've paid a lot more attention to the contentedness and the feelings I have. In other words, how do I feel when I first wake up and how do I feel before I go to bed? I think it was Jody Foster said in the end success is sleeping well. So it's like when you wake up, do you feel anxious or do you feel excited? Do you feel exhausted or do you feel energized? When you go to bed, how hard is it to go to bed? So I began paying attention to things that

correlated to one side or the other very heavily in the last five years and asking myself a lot of the questions that I love to ask myself and that I explore a lot and drive of mentors. You know, what would this look like if it were easy, right? So that I can divorce myself. Take a step outside of that old Tim who wanted nothing more than to showcase to the world, how hard he could work. Okay, well, that's fine. You did a good job. It served its purpose. It got you to where you are with a lot of penalties and taxes and costs. But what would it look like if it were easy? How would the format differ? Who would you ask for help? Could you use money instead of time? Are there friends who would enjoy making this easier for you, et cetera,

etc. And in the last five years, I mean, everything I've done has exploded. So the things that you would think would come as a byproduct of ambition actually came from paying attention to the other side of the equation. Writing books is not a great way to make money. It's the economics are actually terrible. So I write books only when it just satisfies some deep need that I have or scratches an itch that I have. And so for instance, I mean, all of the books I've written have effectively been for myself. I've been interviewing experts, taking the cliff notes of all of their findings, doing my experiments, and then recording what worked and what didn't work. And say, you know, in tribe of mentors, for instance, you know, I just turned 40 and in and around turning 40,

which in and of itself didn't bother me at all. A number of close friends died. A number of my friends' businesses either exploded spectacular in a positive way or imploded in really dramatic fashion. And I wanted, all of those things led me to want to take a step back and look at the 30,000 foot view of my life and just assess, reassess everything, direction, values, priorities. Am I saying no to enough? What should I do? What could I do better when I feel overwhelmed or unfocused?

And so I reached out to this dream list of people I'd always wanted to ask these questions. And that's the book, right? So I wouldn't be surprised if I never write another book. I mean, there was one book that I might write in like five to ten years that I can't really talk about, but I've been taking notes on it for probably six years now. But the financial ambition piece, if we're looking at ambition within those confines, is less and less important to me. And I'm in a fortunate position, certainly, financially. I mean, the books have all done very, very well. The startup investing is done 10 to 100x what the books have done.

The podcast is done very well. But, you know, the one thing that I've never been good at at all is loving myself. I've viewed it as self-indulgent and optional, fuzzy, too fuzzy, not critically important to me functioning at a high level as an instrument, if any of that makes sense. And only in the last short period of time have I realized what a huge handicap that is, not just for yourself, but for everyone else around you. including people you may be trying to help, like my readers and listeners, if you have given up on or devalued or ignored loving yourself, you cannot maximally love or help other people. Period, full stop, end of story. And so that is where I've been spending a lot of time and going through a lot of pain, but like good pain, good, like resetting of bone pain. So that's all part of my journey.

But writing more books to write more books, that's not really on my to-do list. Yeah. On the loving yourself, I was at a session on parenting. And one of the things that I took notes on was, you know, you want to be there. You want to be emotionally available to your kids. Obviously, putting your phone down and listening to them and being present is key. But beyond that, if you, you know, kids will impression, themselves upon whoever is there for them. And if you're dealing with your own crap and you're not

capable because you're dealing with pain or you're just hyper-focused or whatever it is, they're going to impression themselves upon someone else. And it might be the bad kid in class. It might be the bad kid in the neighborhood. It might be, you know, someone else. And, you know, you look back 10, 15 years later, you're like, why did my kid never latch on? And it's because you weren't there, right? You might have been in body, but you weren't in mind. And that's, it's so important. And not just for kids, but, you know, relationships, right? Talking to people being present, being there, being available. And you have to emotionally fix yourself first in order to do any of that stuff. And so I think some people may still say, like, oh, Tim's weak. And that's all that girl,

girly stuff, which, you know, maybe that was the norm, you know, 20 years ago, everybody would have said that but today i think we've come a long way and learned the value of of all this stuff and i think it it takes a super strong human being to be able to recognize that to work on it and and not only that to go on a public forum like this the show and be willing to to share so thank you for doing that yeah of course no i appreciate it and i would say also that you know if loving yourself is is sounds too woo-woo, San Francisco, didgeridoo, yoga burning man for you, then it could just be understanding yourself, evaluating yourself. How can you be the best version of you or create the best results, even in your business without understanding the various components of yourself?

So I would say to that end, if you'd like to improve your relationship or at least awareness of yourself, if you can only get one book, the one that helped me tremendously is called radical acceptance by a woman named Tara Brock, who's just incredible. And I was introduced to her because another incredible woman named Maria Popova, who runs brain pickings, which went from an email to six friends to like 20 gazillion people, a month through eating her stuff. She said she listened to one meditation, a guided meditation by Tara Brock, specifically the 2010 smile meditation every morning and that it had changed her life more than almost anything else. And Maria is super hard hitting driven. I mean, she's more prolific as a writer than almost anyone I know. It's really

astonishing. And so I end up getting this book, Radical Acceptance by Tara Brock. And it's, it's a phenomenal, phenomenal read for the right people. So if you can only get one book, I'm going to shoot myself in the foot and say, get that instead of mine. If you're going to get two books, I would say get radical acceptance and tribe of mentors. Awesome. All right. So I'm going to shift us here over to one of the last segments of the show, which we call our Fire round. It's time for the fire round. These are short answers taken.

The questions are normally out of our forums. So we've got those large real estate forum, the largest real estate forum on the internet. But today, actually, I posted on my Facebook and said, hey, what questions do you want me to ask Tim? So these are questions from friends of Josh and I. Yeah, the internet. So these are people that we know.

All right, number one buddy Jim Wang asked, who is the least famous person you've interviewed, but most interesting person that you've talked to on your show that we should all study and read more about. Like who's not famous but super interesting? There's so many. The first one that comes to mind is B.J. Miller, who is a hospice care physician. He's helped more than a thousand people to die. Also a triple amputee due to an electrocution accident in college, which was actually a cautionary tale when I got to college because we went to the same college.

B.J. Miller, if people just look up, Tim Ferriss, B.J. Miller, listen to that podcast. It is, it can teach you a lot about how to live. And the dude is hilarious. It's a great, great conversation. Awesome. Awesome. Let me do that. Next question. Let me grab this one from Darren Sager. What was the one thing you could look back upon that had the biggest impact on you becoming the person that you are today? So what was the one that moment? And I know it's hard to pick one moment, but was there any? I'll pick one, which there are many, of course. One that comes to mind was a piece of advice that a mentor left on my answering machine, remember those with tapes, way back in the day when I was maybe 13 or 14,

and I think he was borrowing from a guy named Jim Rohn, who was Tony Robbins mentor. He said, you are the average of the five people you associate with most. Physically, financially, emotionally, everything. And that stuck with me. and then I kind of forgot about it, and then I came back to it. But that piece of advice, I would have to say. It's great advice.

From Christopher Cedar or Cedar, what is the one thing that you do daily that has the biggest impact on your day? 20 minutes of transnational meditation, first thing in the morning right after waking up before my phone is taken off of airplane mode. I love it. And I'd pick a second thing. It would be high-intensity training of some type,

typically 20 minutes on a bike doing, say, high-intensity interval training or kettlebell swings or resistance training. Yeah, like the fitness thing was like a whole side of today show that I had notes on that we were never going to get to. Yeah, we haven't had time. We'll do it again someday in the future. But man, that was, yeah, I want to hear your thoughts on that someday. But anyway, keep going.

Josh, you last one. Last question from Benjamin Allen. What's the answer? This is a deep one. You ready? What is the answer to life, the universe, and everything? Everything. Better questions.

Ouch. No, no, I think that's the answer. I know, I know. Better questions, maybe his question,

but just better questions. I agree. You need to ask for what you want and stop asking for what you don't want. I heard a good quote not too long ago, which is worrying is praying for what you don't want. Oh, I like that.

Yeah. So in any case, yeah, questions. Cool. Thinking very carefully about the questions you ask yourself and the world at large. Love it. All right.

Cool. Well, last section of the show, which we lovingly refer to as our famous four. These are the same four questions we ask every guest, every week for 254 episodes now. Number one, what is your favorite real estate related book? Something that would help real estate. What book has helped you and your real estate more than anything else? Probably the annual letters to Berkshire Hathaway. by Warren Buffett.

Yeah, paperback. At least the version I have is sort of a dark green paperback, the annual letters from Berkshire Hathaway by Warren Buffett. That's great. And you can go on the Berkshire website and actually just downloads free, those free as well. Yeah. Yeah. Favorite business book, non-real estate and different, really focused on business.

The first one that comes to mind, I mean, I've read so many, the first one that comes to mind is a book. I'll mention one that most people haven't heard of, I think, which is called More Money Than God. And it profiles the, or it describes the birth and evolution of the hedge fund world and profiles perhaps a dozen of the dominant players with very contrasting styles. It's a really fun read. If anyone's read Liars Poker and found that enjoyable, it's like Liars Poker, but with in some cases larger dollar amounts and even just as colorful characters for sure. And within that, you find these embedded bits of wisdom, these gems from people who have completely different in some cases conflicting styles, which I think is the nature of investing,

right? There is no one size fits all. You really have to figure out what fits you and suits you best. I want to interrupt the famous four real quick. Just a question, how many hours a week do you read? Currently. Do I read? Yeah, do you read?

I mean, keep in mind, like, I'm basically going into full-blown book launch mode. Maybe like an average week. No, no, no, but forget about an average week. Let's talk about, like, a hard week. I'm still reading, I'd say, 30 to 90 minutes per day. That's awesome. Yeah. And those are books.

I'm not generally just straight books that have stood the test of time in some respect. Not Apple. Not Apple. Yeah, no, no, no. I'm not checking my, right, the NASDAQ for 90 minutes a day. Nice. All right. You've written about and talk about all these things that you like to do. What one hobby do you have that most people don't know about? What one hobby do I have that most people don't know about? Well, I suppose the Acro Yoga. I blew my cover with the Acro Yoga. So people may know about that. If you don't know what Acro Yoga is, check it out.

Go on Instagram and look at Duo Die, D-U-O-D-I-E. to get an idea of what that looks like at a high level. A hobby that people don't know about. I love learning languages that I may never use again. So when I travel to, say, Fiji or I travel to Greece or Turkey, I will spend a good portion of every day really digging into the languages because I find that it's just, even with 20 sentences in a language, your experience of that country will be a hundredfold richer

because people see that you're making the effort, even if I never, ever, ever will use those words again. So that would be, I like that. How many languages? How many languages do you know now? You speak like five, don't you? Yeah, I speak Japanese, Mandarin, Chinese, Spanish, English. I used to speak German quite well, but I forget it very quickly.

And then bits and pieces of Italian, Portuguese, Korean, a handful of others. Cool. Not at all impressive. Not at all. Number four, the famous four, last question from me for the day. What do you believe sets apart successful entrepreneurs, real estate investors, whatever, from everybody else who gives up, they fail, they never get started. The non-action takers, the low achievers. I would say, I'm just walking over too for a dramatic effect, a power outlet because I'm on my last legs.

So I would say that what differentiates those groups are, bear with me a second. This is a little unusual. That's all right. I see your knee there. That's pretty sexy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks. I'm getting on the floor because I'm in a new house that doesn't have any furnishings yet. Really are very limited furnishings.

So bear with. All right. I would say that what differentiates those two are a few things that come to mind, at least. The first is testing assumptions. Don't assume you can't do X if you haven't investigated it and done the homework and asked yourself, is there even one exception that I can find in study? Also, I would say the reason many people don't get started is they're worried about failing. And if you do your homework and do two things, number one is focus on projects that will help you to acquire skills and relationships.

So that even if that project fails, those skills and relationships snowball over time. So it's number one. If you do that and number two, if occasionally you think very big, aim very big, that doesn't mean being reckless with your finances. It's very hard to fail completely, almost impossible to fail completely if you think about those two things and always try to cap your downside. If you do those three things, you can fail above other people's successes in some respects. And Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert, has written, quite a bit about this. If you just search career advice, Scott Adams, there's some really good writing on this subject. But I would say that the people who do really big things, by definition,

get started, make lots of mistakes, but over time develop skills, relationships, and a scale of ambition that allows them to succeed even if they fail. Fantastic. Very good answer. Fantastic. All right, Tim, before we let you go, you've got the books, you've got the podcast. How do people reach out? Give them an email. Send them a little plugs. Give us some plugs. Yeah, send him an email. Yeah, yeah, send me an email. I would say, first place that you can check out, certainly for sample chapters and everything, is Tribe of Mentors.com. You can see the full list of people in the book.

I'm really proud of it. I don't put out books unless I'm really proud of them. So I take the time and do whatever's necessary to get them there. So there's that. There's Tribe Mentors.com. You can go to Tim.com for everything. for the podcast, which has more than 200 million downloads now, for instance, definitely check out BJ Miller that I mentioned earlier. So, yeah, the Tim Ferriss Show is the podcast available everywhere. You can find it. And so I would say tribal mentors.com, Tim.blog, if you want to say hi on the socials, I'm at T-Farris, T-F-E-R-I-S on Twitter, and then just forward slash Tim Ferriss on both Facebook and Instagram. Awesome.

Yeah, Tim, thank you so much. I definitely recommend checking out the podcast. You'll get inspired for sure. Check out the blog. There's a ton of really cool, like, productivity stuff in there and obviously get out there and check out the books, guys. Tim, thank you so much for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. Yeah, my pleasure, guys. Good jamming with you. Thanks for having me on. Take care. Wow. That was awesome. That was great. That was great. You know, it's interesting when you have the opportunity. And look, we're, we're pretty. privilege, right? We have the ability to talk to people who we have aspired to meet. We have the opportunity to connect with and really dive in with folks like that. And this in particular was really special. I thought it was fantastic, really, really good podcast. And I'm just, you know, really pleased to have had the chance to chat with him. Did I sound like a fanboy the whole time? Because I'm a fan boy. You did. You did. Okay. That's okay. You know, I'm a bit of a fan boy too. Look, I mean, it's hard.

It's hard not to be with somebody who, you know, it's, look, for me, it's not just, it's not just the business because, you know, that's impressive. You know, it's not just the podcast because that's impressive. It's not just the books because they're impressive. I'm at this stage in my life where I've begun to explore, like the other stuff. How do I better myself as a human? And that stuff to me and his influence and his ability to communicate those things is, I don't I don't know. There's just something about it. I love it. And so really quite pleased.

What I like about that, you know, a lot of people might listen to this show and go, well, I wanted actionable step by step on how to buy my first property. You're right. Like, people might listen to that. But what I think is so valuable at these types of shows and why I want to do more and more of them is because, like, once you get like the foundational basics of you and your and you're who you are, the self-awareness, like you can build your real estate off of that. But if you build your real estate strategy off of a faulty foundation, that's going to just topple over later, right? Like I wish I would have understood a lot of these concepts earlier on in my investing. And I think I'd be a lot happier, a lot better off,

had a lot less struggles because I would have understood, it would have been built on a better foundation. So that's what I think this show is largely about is building that foundation of self-awareness. Well, just figuring out who you are, right? I mean, finding yourself. Yeah. So cool. No, I love it.

I would, we need a bug Tim to come back some day. And we'll talk more about, like, fitness and all that. Yeah, that would be great. Cooking about cooking and fitness and everything. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, to read his books, guys, if you've not read the 4-R-Work Week, it's probably the number one. You know, he asked a lot of his guests on his show, what book do you gift more than anything else? For me, it's like the 4-R-Wark Week, Rich Dad, Poredad, and Life and Air, which is a really good real estate-related book. I gift those books all the time to people because they just changed my life.

Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Go out there, all right, guys. So this is Show 254 of the Bigger Pockets podcast. Check out the show notes of BiggerPockets.com slash show 254. We'll have links there to all the books that Tim mentions, Tim mentions. a ton, a ton of books in the show. So check those out. And obviously, if you were listening, you heard, I mean, the guy said he reads 30 to 90 minutes a day, even when he's in the deep of it. So I definitely recommend learning, reading, exploring, expanding yourself in your mind. So make that happen.

With that, happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Thank you. I'm thankful for you guys our listeners. And again, Brandon, very thankful for you as a co-host, a friend and your colleague. So right back at you. Happy holidays, man. Happy holidays. Yeah. All right, guys. I'm Josh Storkin.

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