BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 266: How We Used a Partnership to Buy 900 Units with Jake and Gino

Episode Date: February 15, 2018

We’re not going to lie: It was hard to come up with a title for this episode because we covered SO much—productivity strategies, morning routines, growing from zero to 900 units, partnerships, 1031 exchanges. Whether you are a top performing real estate expert or still looking for your first, you’ll leave this interview challenged, encouraged, and fired up to make some big changes in your life! Jake and Gino are full of energy and even more full of knowledge, so get ready for one awesome show. In This Episode We Cover: Who Jake and Gino are The importance of having a picture in mind Tips for having good morning habits How they built ancillary businesses to support their real estate investing Advice for finding the right employees How to get into the first deal How to balance being focused and building another revenue streams Why partnerships are vitally important What to seek in a partner What their partnership looks like Thoughts on using an LLC for each deal What exactly cost segregation is A discussion on holding properties forever Their thoughts about 1031 exchanges How they find deals And SO much more! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Podcast 182: 674 Multifamily Units in Three Years with Jake & Gino BiggerPockets Podcast 157: A Simple Morning Ritual to Help You Dominate Every Area of Your Life with Hal Elrod Luminosity Headspace Alar.my Scott’s Twitter Profile Books Mentioned in this Show Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki The Miracle Morning by Hal Elrod The Richest Man in Babylon by George S. Clason The ABCs of Real Estate Investing by Ken McElroy Investing in Fixer-Uppers by Jay DeCima Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand Tweetable Topics: “Have a picture in mind and just keep focusing on it.” (Tweet This!) “You grow into your problems, and you outgrow your problems.” (Tweet This!) “The fear is worst than the reality.” (Tweet This!) “If you’re not thinking of creating value for the other person, then the partnership is not going to work.” (Tweet This!) “Transactions are not going to create wealth; equity is going to create wealth.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Jake and Gino Jake and Gino’s Company Website Rand Property Management Rand Partners LLC Jake and Gino Podcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Like, you know, he always goes and says, like, if we wanted to fix and flip, but you want to do multifamily, that's not going to work, right? Because you guys, one guy's going to want to sell. One guy's going to want to hold. So I think it's getting down and saying, what are your goals? What are you trying to achieve and making sure your goals are a long? You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you're in the right place.

Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Scott Trench here with my co-host, Mr. Brandon Turner. Brandon, how you doing? You totally royally screwed that up. Oh, I did. Host!

of the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host, Mr. Brandon Turner. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm good. How are you doing? I'm doing great. How are you located right now? I am in a bedroom over and, yeah, it's pretty good. It's kind of dark in here. Sorry. Weather, weather looks terrible. Are you trying to get me to say Hawaii?

Yeah, I'm trying to get you to say Hawaii. People should know, yeah. I'm spending some time here in Hawaii this winter and maybe I won't leave. I don't know. We'll see. But it's been good. I went surfing yesterday. Brandon has semi moved to Hawaii and since his days. I have not moved to Hawaii because Hawaii has a state income tax. So I am visiting for a few months and then I will be back in Washington where there is no state income tax. And maybe someday down the road I will decide to move to Hawaii.

And just pay the income tax. Pay the crazy income tax. Crazy Hawaii. Anyway, hard life. It's a hard, not life. So today's show is really a lot of fun. We have Jake and Gino back on the show who they've been on before. It was an amazing episode last time, and I would say it's even better this time.

It's super fun. We covered both like high level and like beginner stuff, talking about partnerships, talking about 1031 exchanges, talking about multifamily, building ancillary. Am I using that word right? Ancillary. Oh, I butcher it, whatever. I said ancillary a couple times in the show, though. You know what?

You know, we don't speak English well. So it was a good show, though. So listen up. And now let's hear from today's quick, quick tip. All right, today's quick tip is go and learn about what kind of loans you're going to need after you've used your first few conventional loans in your real estate portfolio. Today's discussion with Jake and Gina, we talk a lot about kind of advanced commercial loans that have different terms than what you're used to hearing about with a fixed 30 year,

a fixed 15 year term at a low interest rate. Go out and kind of just study that and kind of understand, hey, what is a balloon payment? What does the emmerization period mean? What does the term mean? What are the kind of other factors that will be influencing your financing decisions as you scale past your first few properties and go down the line? Very good. You know what? That'd be a really good blog post to come out on Thursday at the same time as podcast.

But it written by Scott Trench. Wouldn't that be a good post? Oh, no. See, I've still learned about this stuff. So I asked a bunch of questions as I was trying to learn about this stuff. So I don't have a person to write that. But definitely I know enough to converse with Jake and Gino here. But you're going to want to be able to do that as well as you build your portfolio.

Nice. Well, here's a quick, second quick tip for you. I was just trying to bait you into forcing you to write an article. It didn't work. But no, if you guys go to the search bar, if you're on bigger pockets in the navigation bar at the top, there's a little like magnifying glass. Click that, like our search has been totally revamped over the past few months and it's really, really good.

Like you can find like anything on the side. Just search something like balloon payment, right? Type it in there and then it gives you into categories. You can search all bigger pockets or just the podcast, just the blog, just the forums. And it's really, really, really helpful. I use it every single day. So there's a second quick tip. Awesome. All right. Well, let's, I think we should probably just get the show unless we got anything else to cover. Maybe I will say this because I haven't said in a while, probably didn't like last week. If you have not yet left us a rating or review for the show,

please do so. It really, really helps us. And yeah, you know, tell your friends. So with that, let's bring in Jake and Gino. Jake and Gino are two real estate investors or partners. They've done massively cool stuff. You'll hear about their story later on. I don't know. go into the story. But anyway, they've invested in multifamily. I think they said 900 doors now they have, 900 units. And I've only been doing this for like five years. So they've really scaled up, built a really, really awesome business that involves never selling. And we get into that conversation later. Make sure you guys stick around for that because it is fascinating topic. So without further ado, let's get to the interview. All right, Mr. Jake and Gino, welcome to the Bigger Pockets podcast again.

How you guys doing? Good. Doing really, really good, man. Really happy to be here. Yeah, good, good. We're happy to have you. This would be a lot of fun today. Can you guys, for those who didn't listen to your last episode? Can you guys give us a just a quick rundown? Who are you each? Had to get into real estate? We'll keep this a few minutes and they can go back and listen if they want the full story. But tell us about yourself. Do you get into it? I'll get into it. So we're just a couple of dudes. I was a pharmaceutical rep. Gino was a restaurant owner. We met through Gino's brother. He used to hit up Yankee games and hang out with Gino's brother. I ended up moving to Tennessee for a better cost of living.

You know, a lot of guys were saying, dude, you got to get into real estate, blah, blah, blah. So I ended up moving to Tennessee. You know, it was getting a lot of rejection. People were telling me you can't do this. It would say, y'all are crazy, you know, basically, you know, whatever. So, but no, it's some really cool folks. So we, you know, bashed her head against the wall for about 18 months trying to get into a deal. You know, we ended up getting to the 25 unit crack then.

A 25 unit correct then turned into 850 units, which we're closing on another 50. We're going to 900 here in a minute. And, you know, so we blew it up pretty quick. He fast forwarded that really fast. Well, he said we saw it last. We don't need to go through it again, right? It wasn't that easy. It's a G daddy here.

I said, clap my fingers. Let's go. We bought a couple apartments and now we just sit at home and talk to you guys. That's awesome. What a lot of life? More challenging than that. But I'll tell you one thing is one of the best five years of my life is I was, you know, I downsized for my restaurant.

I had one small restaurant, right? So the paradigm guys is to think, watch your words. My mom would always say to me, we have to stay small, this, small, that. And to go to buy a 25-un property for me was really huge. First one was really huge. But I knew that I wanted to get out of the restaurant ultimately. So it took me about three.

three years to do that. March of 2016 was my D-Day when I decided to hang it up and say goodbye. We had about 650 units. I took him about two years to do it. And that was our ultimate goal. So anybody listening to it, you know, think with the end in mind. Think, you know, when you first start out, why am I doing this? Do I want to make a few extra bucks? Do I want to go live in Hawaii? I actually moved to San Augustine six months ago. That's what I wanted to do. I moved down to Florida because of the quality of living, the cost of living. I have six children. So I wanted to be with them all the time, go to the beach all the time. I thought the cost of living would be less, but when you want to live on the ocean, it's not. But you know what? Fortunately for me,

I kept buying. We refied over seven million bucks. We've got a lot of money, but we refied the money. Keep putting in, keep buying more property and you just keep seeing the vision. You keep painting a picture because we always think in pictures, right? So think of the picture. I was thinking myself in the ocean getting up at 7 o'clock in a morning, doing my miracle morning, doing my savers out there. And that's what pushed me through it. So have a picture of mine. Know what you want to do. Focus on it. And you can do it. Whether it's multifamily, single family, or whatever it is, just keep focusing on it. Real quick, too, I just want to throw this out there because last time we were in the show, we had a tree fall on one of our properties. We talked about it. We cut it up with sent you video.

We do have a little bit of an issue today. If you hear a little bit of grinding in the background, we apologize. We got the tree guys out here today. We got about another acre at my house that. We'll warn you, we're sorry, but it should be okay. So we'll carry on with this. Nice, nice. I don't mind that. Real quick, before we jump into more, you mentioned Miracle Morning and Savers. For those people who haven't listened to that, we, you know, had a hell out on the show a while back. But if you haven't listened to that episode, do you explain what is, what is Miracle Morning? And what has that been like for you and kind of walk through that a little bit. Oh, well, for me, it was great. I had Cameron Harold on our podcast. So I love that whole, that whole thing. Basically,

it's called the Savers. It's the acronym. Now, I don't remember what it is. It's spiritual. I forget what the acronym is. But what I do, I try to spend about 45 minutes to an hour every morning. And guys, the morning time is the best for me because it's the time when I get up in the morning for myself, whether it's 5 o'clock, 6 o'clock, 7 o'clock, there's nobody up in the morning. So I like to do a little describing. I like to go take at least 30 to 45 minute walk on the ocean. That's my goal to get on the beach every single day. And I didn't do it this morning because I got up 3 o'clock to come here.

See this guy. But try to do that. You try to clear your mind. You try to really actually start your day, whether it's meditation. I like to pray a little bit in the morning. I like to really get myself prepared for the day. Like really think about what my day is, really plan my day. Try to show some gratitude throughout the day.

Just say, be thankful when you first get out of bed and say, hey, listen, let me start the day off right. Let me start the day off right. on. And it's like a routine. You try to create those really good habits in your life. And what I've see is in the morning. I like to do a lot of writing in the morning. I like to get the stuff that, you know, is heavy lifting in the morning. Because as the day wears on, you start losing that momentum, that motivation. And as the day wears on, it's happened to me. So I like to get my stuff done in the morning. But what if you're not a morning person like me. I don't know. That's an excuse

though. But you know what you do though? It's probably my mind you. What's the fine morning person. What, what is, uh, what time you know what we like to get up at? Seven. Seven side of it. Well, I, I, I, I get up at seven. So I mean, seven o'clock, get up at six, 45. Seven, just try to chunk out in the morning, trying to work out in the morning. Trying to work out in the morning or walking or exercising is probably a great thing because it gets you going. Eat something a little healthy. Take five or ten minutes to subscribe throughout the day. Get your thoughts going and try to plan your day in the morning. What times you go to bed? 10 or 11? If you went to bed at like 930, would that change your life in a big way?

Are you missing out in something? No, but I'd just get up. I'd go to bed earlier and get up earlier is the way I kind of think about it. No doubt. So then you get up, you go to a little bit, a little earlier. You get up a little earlier. And now you're half hour, 45 minutes ahead of all your employees or whoever you're managing or whoever's on your team, right? You're sending stuff out to them. You're getting your day prepared, cleaned up. You're ahead. You're basically starting ahead of everyone else. So then some stuff starts going to get an over to you, you're able to get further ahead. For me, I'm up about 6 o'clock. I'm, you know, firing off emails, making sure all my ducks in a row, getting any admin out of the way because I hate admin. I get it out of the way first thing in the

morning and then I'm out, you know, doing things trying to grow the business. So for me, it just gives me, I feel like a competitive advantage and it seems to work. So, you know, for me, the whole morning thing, like the miracle morning movement and all that, like for me is, it's more about proactive living than it is about a time, right? It's about saying, I'm going to take a dedicated time in the morning to work on myself and to say, you know, I'm going to define how my day is going to go. I'm not going to live reactively to what comes my way. But also, in addition to that, I'm just so much more productive in the morning, Right. So like morning, an hour of work in the morning for me is like the equivalent to four hours of work at 11 o'clock. Yeah, I don't know if you guys noticed that as well, but I'm so much more productive because there's nobody else up. Nobody else around. Nobody's email me calling me bugging for my time. Plus your brain isn't totally with it. So if there's something you really hate to do, like you got a Freddie Mac contract or something like that. Do it first thing because your brain isn't, you can plow through that shit. And it's like, I didn't even happen. Right. The other thing is I got a I got the TB12 method. I stole a little bit from Tom Brady. here. I'm getting the electrolytes in the morning first off, staying nice and hydrated and then doing the

brain games every other day. I go from the headspace. Brain games? What are brain games? What are brain games? Lomosity, man. It's like 15 minutes, but it's like cognitive training. So your brain's functioning properly. It's like exercise for your brain. So you go on. Just keeps the brain fresh. I do that one day. The next day I do headspace, which is like a, it's a little meditation on your thing. So I'm hitting an alternative. I don't know if it does anything. It makes me feel good and I enjoy it. So why not, right. Yeah, there you go. One last note on the waking up thing, what, just an app that works really well for me. There's an app called Alarmy. Have you guys heard that? So Alarmie is fantastic. So it's an app where it wakes you up like an alarm, right? Except for it makes you do, you can choose

what you want, what you want it to make you do in the morning. For example, I have it give me three math problems. I have to solve when I wake up in order for the alarm to turn off. So I'm like 19 plus 85 plus 62. And by the time you're done with three simple math problems, I'm awake. Another one, you can go make it. It'll make you take a picture of something in your house. Like, you line up just perfectly, take the picture. So it might be your coffee pot or whatever. Anyway, that I find is like the best alarm I've ever had in my life because, like,

you have no option. The brain games are similar. It's got like division and mathematics problems falling from the sky. And you have to hit it before the rain drop explodes in the water. Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah, it's just getting your head working a little bit in the morning. Like, but in, yeah.

Anyway, okay. Sounds like a terrible board. I'll have to think about it. Try it. it's good. Anyway, moving on to real estate and business, though, I think what we'd really love to hear about this. Dude, it is real estate and business, man.

It all starts up here, man. 90% is in your head, right? All right. You know, we talked to the last time about you guys building this real estate portfolio. I think of that it would be awesome to hear about how you use the process of building this real estate portfolio to create ancillary businesses that were related to real estate and produce kind of additional income streams. Do you think, does that sound like a good?

Yeah, let me, I'll go with this and you go. So, so it all starts up front. You know, you talked about systems and process. So our framework is buy right, manage, right, finance, right? And we basically realize that multifamily investing is a three-legged stool. If you buy the thing right, you don't overpay, you can do well there. The management is very important. We reposition these things. And then we look for a minimum of three percent rent growth year, okay? We hope to get more. We don't want to really get less. And then financing right. You know, I think one of the biggest issues is interest rate risk, right? If we can get out there to 35-year fixed HUD loan, great, minimum of 10 years. years, we want non-recourse financing. So we want it off our balance sheets. We use community banks. We love community banks. We try to get them, you know, sometimes with a community bank, and refinance it out, take the money and get it off to non-recourse. So that's kind of, that's kind of like the broader framework. But what we realized getting into this is I started managing the business, our first 25-unit deal. And we realized that it's a big wheel, right? In the middle of you have your holding company. And then there's these spokes that are basically going off the holding company. We have, I think, 14 holding companies right now, 25 employees.

But you can, you get that holding company to place. You can start a management company if you want. That's another, you know, stream of revenue there. You can start a brokerage. We're actually looking at maybe this year we start a brokerage company, you know, just simply focus on multifamily assets. We can go. We could pay our brokers 3% for bringing us the deal.

And then we have an offer. Hey, Mr. Owner, 3% we buy it from you. You don't have to worry about it. If not, we'll sell it for you, right? So that's one option we're going. We're looking at procurement down the road. Can we go get a huge, you know, box of our top 20 supplies from China and cut, you know, 50 to 75% from our supply costs. We're looking at, you know, we got the education company. One thing we

want to do this year is syndicate as well. You know, we bought all our deals with all our own money. We're closing on, we're going to be a little over 900 units here in April. We actually wrote the deal, you know, that we're buying now this morning. You know, we're going to give it a shot. We don't know if we like it, but we're going to say, why not? Let's give it a shot. We've got a bunch of investors that we, you know, are on our list right now. So let's see if we can add back and give value that way. So I think that, you know, if you're a contractor, if you're, if you're some guy that has built houses, if you have management experience, and you're saying, I want to get in the game, well, look, multiple streams of revenue, right? You can make money over here. You make money over here.

You make money over here. Use it all. Go all in on multifamily and forget the rest. People need a place to live. We're all in on multifamily. We don't do residential. We don't do, you know, commercial stuff. It's just multifamily homes. And I think there's a lot of ways that you can make money off of that. It's also vertical integration. We control the whole process. The more of these businesses we control, we're not paying fees to people that we're hiring. The main contractors we use as a painting and a flooring company. We try to handle all the rest of the construction stuff in-house. And I think the important thing about that is a couple of things.

I can relate it to other businesses. But what happens down the road, five years down the road, if you get sick of the HVAC company that you created, you can always sell it. You created an asset. It's got value. You can sell that. Same thing with the property management company.

You can sell it. You can still maintain the asset. Let's relate to this. We call it multifaceted multifamily. That's what we call it. But just take any other business that anybody's in right now. I was speaking to you guys about the restaurant that I used to own. I tried to do this.

Unfortunately, my brother didn't want to do it. So if you have the brick and mortar store, which is dying, right? But it's still a nice, viable option. People still have to go out and eat. Well, write a cookbook. There's one stream of revenue. Do some online training educations. There's another stream of revenue.

Why don't you do some physical products? Maybe you want to sell some knives. There's another stream of revenue. Hey, how about some tomato sauce? This is another stream of revenue. So as entrepreneurs, find out what the market wants. Try to supply it and try to expand. that one stream because we're always locked down to one stream. But if you start thinking outside the

box, all of a sudden you've got four or five streams that are feeding this one thing. And Jake likes to call it snowball effect. All of a sudden, that one little asset is starting to create a lot of multiple streams. And that's how you become wealthy. Well, let's, let's think about this for a second. So let's say that I'm a new investor and I've got two or three small residential properties, duplexes, triplexes, quad, two or three of those types of units. What are some ways that I can start thinking outside the box to begin building the foundations for these ancillary businesses? What, What would you guys do? So number one, you're in the game. So congratulations. You took the first step. You got in the game. You already got three deals done. So you're well on your way. And I think most of the time after people have gotten that one, two or three, they can go up to a five. They can go up to a 10. So I started, in my own personal experience, I started managing. I was working full time. I was working full time. I don't get up early enough, all that stuff. Right. You can. Just work a little harder. You got plenty of time throughout the day. Start managing it. Right. Get a feel for it. See if you like, if you totally hate it, you can go back and, you know, have someone else manage it for you. What was your job, by the way, when you're doing that? I was selling vaccines at the time.

Okay. So the thing is, you guys have to understand. It's, he talks as if he's, everyone is built like him. He's a machine. The problem is that we all have to figure out our whys. If you have a strong enough why, you'll figure out how. And it's just simple as that. I had a strong enough why.

I hated my restaurant. But it just got to the point that I want to do something else. The two types of motivation. I was moving away from pain at the very beginning. I didn't want to be there anymore. That's a great motivator. I don't want you to do that for the rest of your life, but to kick yourself in the butt,

do what he did to work that extra hour. I would have my mom again come and say to me, why are you working during lunch? I'm like, this is not work. I like to do this. This is moving me away from pain and going towards pleasure, which is the second type of motivation, which is why we're on this podcast, because we love to do this stuff. So if you can get to that second type, you're going to be the Steve Jobs of the world. You're going to be the Bill Gates of the works.

You love what you're doing. And money is not the cause. It's the result. And that's when you start living a truly passionate life. And that's so spot on because people say, do what you love. It's all about finding what you love. You know what's awesome and what you really love is being successful. When you get good at something, you don't have it.

No, let's not be a little be able to. I love it. If you put the work and you start to get good at something, guess what? You're going to start liking it. I always go back. I used to be a personal trainer when I got at college because I thought I played football, lifting weights was fun, right? These people were so damn unmotivated and they hated it.

It made me not want to go to the gym anymore. So guess what? It wasn't that I was passionate about us. So now I have a gym right underneath this right now in the room we are in my house. It's awesome. I love it. I go downstairs and work out when I want to. I don't have to go and try to push people.

So when you start to get good at something, put the time in, learn the ropes, start your own management if you want to. And then, guess what? I get to work on our employees now. My employees are our customers. You know, we're talking about before the show a little bit. We're doing financial education for our employees this week because we know they need it. We're bringing in bankers.

I flew in the big G dad from Florida because he's like, you know, Mr. Life Coach, he's going to coach these guys on it. But we want our folks to be successful so they can reinvest in our business, so they can start to invest in deals. so they can grow a nest egg for retirement and start cash flowing not only on their job but also outside of it as well. So now myself, I'm working on building businesses, not so much in the business. I will though. I will. You know, we hire an attitude and ethics and a blue color work ethic. So, you know, if something needs to be done, I'll go and clean, you know, an office or something.

Whatever needs to be done, I don't mind doing it, but it's really working on the business and creating additional businesses and allowing people to move up through the business. My biggest thing that I'm doing that I love is being able to take someone that's say an assistant manager and promote them to a manager or a regional manager or a maintenance manager and be able, you know, move them within the company better their lives. And people see it. If you're a rock star in an organization, you don't stay in your seat for six months because you're moving up and we're buying something else. No, I love it. That's firing me up today, man. I think it's fantastic to have that passion and particularly to bring it to other people. I mean, that's what we do all day long at bigger pockets.

It's like my goal in life is to help as many people as possible and financial freedom because of that they can go and live out their purpose or seek that higher goal, move toward pleasure instead of away from pain as they get farther along. Oh, go ahead. One other thing about it, it's like, you know, I'm a football fan. So everyone talks about like Andy Reid's coaching tree. Everyone knows Andy Reid's because he brings up rock stars and he promotes them and they

go out and they're a coach. So listen, if my job is bring people up through the system, make their lives better. And now they're in my tree and they know if they need something, you know, Jake's there he's going to take care of me. Like I've helped folks even with the organization outside on personal things. It's that kind of commitment to your employees. These are your customers, folks. Whoever your employing, help these folks out, take care of them. And it's going to pay you back 10-fold. Well, let's go back to your property management. You know, you talked about how that was the first thing that it sounds like you were, you were serious about constructing as an inciliary business

to your real estate portfolio. And you got up and hustled and built it. Can you talk, can you walk us through that process? How did you start that company? How did you scale it? I know it was. I know it was is extra work and that fire was there that help you do it. But what specifically did you do to build that and how'd that business grow? So it was really painful. It was tough in the beginning because, you know, we had a lot of, you know, like employees that were not the right fits. So the hardest thing was getting through those first few employees that are really bad, they're going to try and screw you that are not doing the right thing until you start to find there's good people out there. So the number one thing is you've got to be willing to fire. We fire extremely quickly. If it's not working out,

sorry, we move on, we cut ties, right? Holding on to a bad employee for too long is going to be the worst thing that you can possibly do. So it's getting folks in there and then it's starting to create systems. We have all these different, and guys, I suck at this, right? I suck at HR, I suck at all this. But you know what I did? I actually went and we paid for one of our rock star employees to go through HR training to learn it because they're really good at it.

I said, you know what? You love this stuff. Here you go. You know, it's, you won't it now, right? Put them through the training, HR certified all this. and now they're, you know, that put that person in their role so that when we have policies on, this is how we hire, this is how we fire, and different handbooks on, you know, how to run the company. I'm not the guy to write a handbook, but I can hire the people that are going to be

good at it and start develop the systems with the organization. I think bad employees is the wrong word to you. Sometimes they're not bad employees. Sometimes they're in the wrong seat. There might even be there. There are shitheads out there that don't belong in the company. Let's start, let's start maybe like from the, from this angle, where, how did you attract your first customers that you could hire this person? Did you self-fund the business? Or how did you get into the business of attracting customers so that you could hire these employees and begin to train them?

Real quick, that's what's the allure of multifamily. So you have a 25-unit property. If it's a single-family home, it doesn't substantiate it. So what you want to do is try to scale as quickly as possible because that's the allure of multifamily. You can actually create a business. So we bought 25 units in February of 2013. Four months later in July, we had an additional 36 units that we closed on.

That's 60 units within four months. And it's like, wow, I told you the snowball effect because your first deal, right? Get into your first deal no matter what it is, whether it's a three unit or a 30 unit. And I always tell people, it's hard, easy to hear people say, I'm not going to name the gurus. Oh, go big, do what, no, go whatever you feel comfortable with because you want to be able to succeed in that position. You want to feel confident. And let me tell you something. The hardest thing that I figured out was you have a small problem, right?

It might be a problem to you, but might not even phase me in the least. When we had 25 units, mold was the biggest problem for us, right? Now that you have 900 units, he just had another mold problem. You grow into your problems and you outgrow your problems. That's why I have no problem with starting with smaller properties. Learn the ropes, make those mistakes. You feel comfortable. So when a tenant dies in your property, hey, it's not the end of the world.

It is the end of the world today, but not to us. Well, it is the end of the world for that person. But you know what I'm saying? It's a big problem, but it's something that you've dealt with and something that you can overcome, right? I mean, you have a fire in a unit. He called me the last time. I mean, it was pretty devastating. The lady passed away in a unit.

I mean, it's happened a couple times now. It's part of the business. You have to know what... You have to have thick skin in the game. Really do. And that only happens with experience. So if you're going to go and buy a 150 unit deal and try to take it down, and it's your first deal, it's going to be a lot harder, I think,

than if you start a little bit smaller, you should get your feet wet. We like to do the whole manager thing. Start scale and small... Scale quickly, though. I mean, I think it's okay because it's all up here, right? If you can do like a 5, 10 unit or something, you're going to realize, well, it's no different. It's just adding zero is on. to it and more employees. And that's why people always say it gets easier the bigger you get.

You get more people because you have people helping you now and you have people that are becoming experts in these spaces. So you want them to help your company grow and then you want to take care of them and turn like I said before. So I'm sorry, Scott, to go back to your point, the 25 unit, we had a resident manager on. He wasn't a great resident manager. We work with him. Or human being. Yeah. And then the 36 unit guy was even worse. He was even worse. But you learn, right? And the third deal, we scaled up to 136 units. So then all of a sudden, wow, we can get a couple leasing agents going on. We can hire a couple full-time maintenance guys. So within that first year, we're able to hire a pretty decent staff. And that's what really, I think, really helped us out.

Okay. And it was your plan for this business just to run your own properties or were you planning to take on additional management as per- No. We just wanted to do our own properties. I mean, I think if it came down to the point that, hey, listen, I wanted to get a, that's a great question now. Now that I'm thinking about it, I wanted to move to Jacksonville to actually expand the portfolio and start to manage another management company in Jacksonville. Unfortunately, prices escalated. I didn't sell my house in time. I didn't get down here in time. So we were actually thinking of doing that to expand it, bring it to another market.

Just the economies of scale and the ability for me to, I mean, generate more revenue for property management. And it's also the control. So you're controlling the asset. It runs much more efficiently. You have hands on and you're able to grow. So that's what we wanted to do, but it just didn't work out. And going back, I think you're asking, like, what was the goal in the beginning? You know, my goal was I didn't like the stock market.

I didn't like this up and down. And, you know, frankly, I don't understand it. really well. I just was like this. This is not for me. It's not the place to be. I want something that I can touch, you know, you know, solid asset. It sounded like a good idea. I had doctors that I was calling on coaching me on it. He's telling me it's a good idea. So I said, I just want yield. Give me a nice return. Then all of a sudden we get into it and we're like, holy shit. This like wipes your taxes out, right? Cost segregation is amazing. Tenants are paying down the mortgage. Uh, you know, and all these like, like, ancillary benefits that came out of, oh, I started a property

management business, right? You know, all these little things that start to pop out of. I'm like, this is, this is amazing. I feel, I feel like we are in the, best business in the world because, you know, you can't, you can't go on and buy an apartment right now in Amazon. They can't ship it to you, you know, at your home or whatever. You need, everyone's going to need a play. This is a basic human need, right? You're controlling, you know, land. You're controlling where people live. I love it. I think we're in the best spot. It's not, I don't like fixing and flipping it really because it's a job. You burn out, then the thing is done. Poof, it's gone. I never plan on selling. My recommendation people is

hold on these things for as long as you can if you want to build generational wealth. That's, that's what we're in the process of doing. Awesome. I love it. When I bought my first rental, I thought collecting rent would be the hard part. Nope. The admin crushed me. Every night was receipts, tax forms, and checking who was late on rent. I kept thinking, if this is one unit, how do people run 10?

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That's Indeed.com slash rookie. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Yeah. So I want to bring up one point you brought up a minute ago about how when you first start, everything that's a problem is such a problem. Like you said, the mold, right? I was thinking the first time I did an eviction.

It was like, an eviction, right? Like, how many people have stopped investing in real estate? Like never got started, right? Because of some fear of like, oh, an eviction. I don't want to deal with that. But then guys like us are like, oh, another eviction. Whatever. Oh, fire, building burned out.

Okay. So I want to encourage people listening to this. Like if there's some like fear that's stopping you right now from saying, you know, get into real estate because of whatever, eviction, mold, fires, whatever. Like, just know that there's guys that are just doing it and they hear about it while like driving on the freeway and then they illegally text to solve the problem and they move on. You know, I'm not saying you should text and drive. But like it's so passive to them. It's like it's such not a big deal.

These things that all the people will go for lean in. What? Lean in, man. You're scared of it and eviction. Lean in. I like it. Figure to mold. I like it.

Because once you understand it, it's the. fear of the unknown, lean in, figure it out, understand it, and all of a sudden, wow, this is not that big of a deal. I am three and oh right now as an attorney. This is, this is the thing. I went in, I didn't know I needed, you know, some kind of lawyer's license or whatever the hell they're called to do evictions because we had an LLC, whatever the hell that means, right? So I said, you know, in the beginning, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm to do everything, right? I was the I'm a guy. So I went in, went into court a couple of times. I was three and oh, okay? I didn't have to go to school for this. But then all of a sudden,

the judge said, said, son, are you an attorney? I said, no. He said, what are you doing here? I said, evict him this guy? He said, you need to be an attorney if you're an LLC. I said, oh, I'm sorry, Your Honor. But you know what? I still won that one.

He let it go through and then I was three and I retired. So it went out on top, all right? To your point, I mean, if somebody wants to get in and they're afraid, maybe they go work for a property management company. Maybe they do the ropes. Maybe they see how it works. And maybe it's not that daunting. Maybe they work for a brokerage company and do a couple of these tasks and see,

hey, wow, it's really not that hard. It's the fear of the unknown. You know what? There's this thing out there. It's called Google. You can go on and type it in. You can literally figure out everything like that. It's amazing.

You know, like I know I'm being a smart ass, but seriously, you just lean in and figure it out. The fear is worse than the reality, right? So, and that's why I go, you know, we were joking a minute ago. I said it's all up in your head, right? 90% of the game is one up here once you say, okay, I'm going to stop being afraid. I'm going to get past my fears.

I'm going to lean and figure this out. It's not that big of a deal. Oh, and guess what? I've just built this awesome team around me or I'm working on it. And the team will help bear some of this as well. So we're in it together. We're trying to win. I think it's fantastic. And what you're doing is you're like you keep saying it lean in. You're embracing these problems. And more than that where the really big problems come where you just can't like beat it down with by solving it one and done, you build a company to solve it for you in perpetuity. Right. Like this management business.

Here's the other thing. The minute someone calls you and says, hey, we have a problem. You have to squash that. Don't give me the lead up. Don't give me, oh my God, something's going. on hit it right now because I'm telling that five seconds of the unknown in your head is the worst thing ever if one of my employees calls me and says something happened I literally flip my shit I said do you never say that again just get right to the point and say okay guess what we had a leak in this apartment or whatever okay great what you do we already fixed it oh fantastic I got to go see like not I really you know you've got to just stop with the lead-ups anything that's going to create stress or drama because I you got deflect it right you know

that stuff will kill your day the the unknown will create stress get to the the point, have a mature adult conversation and tell me how you're going to fix the problem. And then we're moving on to the next thing. I like that a lot. So let me ask you this question. Going back to the building ancillary businesses, how do you guys see the, the tradeoff between focus and building additional revenue streams, right? So we tell newbies all the time, right? If you're brand new, like pick something and focus on it. Stop bouncing around to 100 different ideas. How do you gel that with trying to build other revenues? So it's like going back to the steel companies back in the day. What is your business need? How can you become more vertically integrated? They needed to buy

the iron ore, right? So then have to worry about the guy supplying them. So you want to control everything that's going in. So right now we need deal flow, right? So I think, how do I get more deal flow? Well, if I have brokers working for me, they're going out. I'm compensating them 3%. They They don't got to worry about getting paid. And then if they bring the deal up, they can sell it. That's basically trading my supplies and everything I need in-house and taking it, right? So that's, that's one of the ways that we work on. We want to be vertically integrated and control the main, you know, asset, you know, pieces to our business that are actually going to reduce costs and make the business more efficient. So regardless of what business you're in, you know, if you're a baseball

team, maybe you go out and you start manufacturing your own baseballs or something like that. That's just a silly example, but it's doing the things that you're going to control, keep your costs down, and make your business run more efficiently. And I think there's a strong thing to be said about partnerships. I think, I think partnerships are very, very important. He runs day to the operations of the property management company. I run data to operations at the education company. So, and listen, you're going to bring an HVAC company. Maybe you bring on a partner on that business and split that revenue with that.

So I think partnerships are really powerful. No one seems like a lot of people don't want to split, right? I'd rather have 50% of something great than 100% of nothing, right? And also, the ability for us to talk day to the operations and Joe, hey, Jake, what should we do with this podcast? Who should we invite on our podcast? Hey, Gino, what should we do with this tenant problem? So we have ideas. And it's great because when you're not involved in a day to day, you can actually take,

what's the word, a less emotional view because higher emotions, and lethal, lower intelligence. So I can look at it. I remember the first time we had a problem with lower employees, this guy wanted to go out and kill a guy. No. I said, listen, I'm not dealing with a day for day. I have no emotions.

I said, the guy stole some money from us. I said, if you're going to go after him, he's going to come back, throw a rock through our window, and there goes that. I said, just let it go, let the thing pass. If I hadn't been there to buffer that, I think something might have. Makes you sound like a meathead over here.

Well, no. First time we had a problem with our employee. Remember that meathead? I mean, it's just like, I'm glad I was there. I'm glad he was there to actually bounce it off and actually get perspective on it, right? And the same thing with me. Sometimes I might be talking to somebody on a day-to-day basis. I ask him the question.

And all of a sudden, he'll say something like, wow, I didn't even think of that. So, I mean, I think partnerships are awesome. I love. Here's another example. We just bought 110 units from a guy who's a developer. And he's trying to look for his next project. And, you know, we haven't built anything yet because the price per unit has not been attractive. We got about six acres by the lake over here.

And we're looking, man, we'd really like to develop. But I actually took that guy out there the other day, and we're in talks now of starting like a small development crew, maybe building 100 units over there. So maybe that's another spoke. Again, maybe we own 25%, you know, 50% of the development of it, but why not, right? Let's just, let's control every facet of our business. I know there's guys out there syndicate and saying, I don't want to do property management. I don't want to do this.

I'm not saying that's lazy, but there's more out there if you want it. If you want to sit back, syndicate a few deals to play Xbox. That's cool, too. It doesn't matter. It's really real estate's about creating a life that you want to live. I just enjoy this stuff and I'm into it, man. You know, like I get pumped up talking about it with you. But, you know, it's all what you want and the life that you want to create.

So let's hear about some of these partnership ideas that you're talking about. I mean, that's something that's really interesting. How do you structure one of these partnerships? How do you pick a partner and how, you know, you just talked about using this for a variety. Yeah. So you got to, you know, Gina always says this. You have to have sort of the same goals and the same outlook in mind. Like, you know, he always goes and says, like, if we wanted to fix and flip, but you want to do multifamily,

that's not going to work, right? Because you guys, one guy's going to want to sell. One guy's going to want to hold. So I think it's getting down and saying, what are your goals? What are you trying to achieve and making sure your goals are aligned? But also not starting a partnership with someone that's lazy if you're a high energy guy. Like if he was sitting around playing Xbox all day and I was out here hustling, I'd be like, dude, this sucks. Why are you not contributing?

So I think it's having a little bit of a relationship and a track record with somebody. So you know, hey, this guy's either a rock star or he's a slug. You know, if you're a slug, partner with a slug. But if you're a rock star, party with a rock star. And then, you know, and make sure the person's ethical. You don't want to be doing business where someone's cutting you checks and all of a sudden you're showing up light every month, right? So it's making sure the attitude is there, making sure the goals are there, making sure it's

a similar type of work ethic. And, you know, I think we share some similar, you know, kind of traits, but maybe there's things that he's good at that I'm not so good at and vice versa. And then we can, you know, that can become a synergistic effect. But Scott, I think more importantly, I think you have to like the person because you do business to people that you like and trust. So I mean, if you don't like the guy, you're going to the business, it's going to end. I'm telling you just going to, it's not going to end well because that one little

thing that he does is going to piss you off. So I think you do as you say and say as you do. When you, when there's something to get done, I never say to him, I did this, see what I did. He never says I did. It's just, we just have responsibilities. And we have goals and we want to reach our goals. And if you have a big enough why between the two of you, we both had a big enough while. We both wanted to have our own freedom. I want to be able to go down to Florida. He wanted to get out of his W-2 jobs. So that big enough why, coupled with, you know, similar goals and coupled with liking each other, a couple of wanting to do business and a couple of the fact that I like his family, you know, I'm feeding his family. He's feeding my family. So that's important.

That's the important thing about partnerships. I think more than anything else. Let's start with that. And then once that goes, what do you guys want to accomplish together? Start creating goals for each other. I love it. I have a million questions on this topic. So first of all, I think this sounds like you have something in mind. Like you, you identify in somebody and you're like, what are you doing? What are you doing? What do you do? What business you got in the hopper everybody? I just got a lot of ideas, you know, a lot of ideas. Secrets. It's coming on board. I think he's coming on board. No, but suppose that I'm a new investor, should I partner with someone who's super experienced

or should I look for someone of about my level of wealth, career success or whatever. How does that work? Well, the first thing when you think about being a partner is I think most people don't consider from this way, what kind of value are you going to bring? You could be new, but if you have a lot of value, and that could be a lot of things, do you have money? Do you have time to manage the property? Do you have a deal?

Do you want to work your butt off? Those are all things of value. So if you're going to partner with an attorney who's working 80, hours a week but just wants to make a 6% preff and you have the time, the ability and the deal, there's a lot of value. There's a tradeoff there. So there's a marriage there. But if you're a newbie who's going to sit around and go, hey, you know, I got a deal. That's not going to work. So think about the go giver says it best, right? You have to give more value than what you're going to get back in currency. If you can do that in life, if I'm giving you this pen, it's worth a buck and you're going

to give me, then you're all gold. If that's not the case, if you're not thinking about creating value for the other person, then the partnership's not going to work. I know when I started out with him, but I had a lot more value to give him in the very beginning because I had the knowledge, I had the experience, I coached him, I mentored him. He in return had a lot of value for me. He lived on the property. He lived right near. He was doing day to day operations.

You know, what else? I mean, there was so many things that he brought to the table also. We worked well together. He was in the grind. He was dealing with the people. So I think that's one way that that's why we were successful, I think. Were you friends? Oh, go ahead.

Brandon. Well, I was just going to have about family. Go ahead and ask yours because yours related that. Were you friends before you began the partnership? Not as much. He was more friendly with my brother. He was a friend. Dude,

he would stand in the back of the restaurant like this. For the guys, I got my arms. And he had big brother, Gino in the back. I was banging the meat. I didn't have my arms crossed. He'd have his head up and he'd look around.

And I'm like, dude, dude, what's up to your brother, bro? He's like, eh, like just, Marco was in the front, right? Dealing with the reps,

you know, interacting, smile. Gino was in the back, you know, with the kitchen guys. So he'd pop his head out and he always looked like he's pissed off. So, you know, it took a little bit to, you know, to break down that barrier. But everyone knows that the G daddy's a sweet, sweet man, right? He's a nice guy.

Just a saucy first impression. You know, he's so intimidating, really. What do you guys think about partnering with family? Like, is that a good idea, bad idea I'd recommend it, especially for newbies? I was a partnership with my brother for 20-something years. There's a trust factor there. So I know at the end of the day, money's there. So I had a trust factor.

I had a relationship. I was the older, I was the oldest sibling. So I took care of a lot of the crap work, a lot of the grunt work. And after a while, it got to me. That's one of the reasons why I got pushed out. I'm doing $15 an hour work when I should be doing a lot, much more work. And he's bouncing around, talking to drug reps, going on barbecues. And it became, you know, after a certain run, I thought I had more value to bring.

So I have no problem. Just this. Make sure everything is writing. You create your LLCs. You create your operating agreements. And it's not about giving money. It's about offering an opportunity. That's the bottom line.

And if you take money from them, you have to have every, single thing in writing. I have no problem with partnering with family. He texted me last night with the 10 checks he got this month from the property. So he's pretty happy because he's in on the deal. Yeah, actually, he's like, thanks, bro. So the guilt was I actually, while I was working at the restaurant, transitioned over. So did I have to bring my brother? No. But it was one of those things where I was in partnership with in so many years. I said, I have to do something. So it's sort of like guilt thing where I actually ended up getting out of it. And I want to pull him out because it's a tough business. The restaurant business is a very difficult grinding daily business if you allow it to be.

And my hope for him is to get him to be financially free also. Awesome. Now, I got a question for you about the structure of these partnerships. And this is not, don't give legal advice to the users or anything like that. How possible anyway? How do you guys structure it so that if one of you wants to leave in the future, that person can do so? What's the agreement there for that?

The sword, June. The Lord of the Rings sword? Yeah, no, I mean, at the end of the day, the idea is stuff to get. And this is going back to the goal thing, right? So we have operating agreements. The stuff's all lined out. The ultimate goal is so if one of us passes on, right, it goes to the family. So like say something happens to Gino, his wife's just going to get checks every month, you know, on a residual basis.

So that's ultimately the goal is to pass it down the line. Could we unwind the thing if we wanted to? Sure, you know, we could get a fair market appraisal, buy that person out for their, you know, whatever, whatever their, you know, their equity is lessed a debt. And that's it. So could we do that? Yeah. I don't think anyone, you know, I'm not interested. I don't think you, brother.

I don't want to do it. I say, Scott, what we do in our business, we try to create an LLC and entity for every property we take over. We want to segregate our assets. Easier because it's great for bookkeeping. It's easier because if you want to refile the property, you have the numbers there. They know what the agencies is way easier. Yeah, and every property can have its own operating agreement. So every operating agreement might be different.

Jake might own 10% of one. He might own 42% of another. So it's very easy from that perspective to do that. And that's how you run your thing. And you have every operating agreement has their own set of rules. That's how we do it. So you guys, so it's not like a math. master partnership for everything in a way, every deal that kind of stands alone?

No, everybody kind of stands alone. Yes. That's smart because like, yeah, you might get in, yeah, you might get into bed with somebody that you don't actually find out after a deal or two that they just aren't pulling their weight. It's a whole lot easier. Yes. Yeah. And it's your protection.

That's cool. An operating agreement, right? Yes, exactly. Exactly. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. You know, no one's confused here. It sounds to me like the philosophy underlying your partnership, though, is, hey, we plan to be in

this forever. This is a, this is a, forever. we're going to pass it down to our errors when that day comes. But we also have contingency factors in place in case that doesn't happen. But it sounds to me like that's a really smart approach to partnerships in general as you plan on making it forever or indefinite. And then, you know, we're married having that option. Yeah, it's almost like a marriage.

Well, you know what it is? You always try to get when you get into an asset, you get into an investment, try to think of the end game. What's the end game in mind? We always get into a deal, right? into single family or multifamily. Why are you getting into the multifamily? We want to hold. We want to buy and hold because we do the refies. We cost like these things. So that's what our strategy is. So we want to do that. So that's how we structure our partnership. Another guy's partnership. Maybe they're syndicating a

deal. They're going to get into a partnership with the other guy. Hey, listen, this is the three to five year hold. This is what we're doing. And that's how they get paid. That's why they're doing it. They're syndicated in three to five years. That guy's getting his big rip to sell it. We're just saying, we want to hold these things for long term. And everyone's like, well, you know, you're going to get all your depreciation eventually, you're not going to have anything left. That's why we keep buying more, because as long as we keep buying, the tax party keeps going on. We buy a new asset. It's passed through W-2. Taxes get wiped. So let's just, let's keep buying these things. Let's keep building. Let's keep growing. And the party goes on. And when we do our first syndication, that first syndication will also

have that mindset in place. We'll be underwriting. We're not, we're not looking to sell. So if you want to invest with our company, we're in for the long term. And that's how we translate into that business also. Can you explain, can you explain because this is topic I don't think we've ever actually covered maybe a long time ago. What is it? And this is a super advanced strategy sort of, but you don't have to be an expert to do it. Cost segregation. What did you mean by cost seg? Yeah, yeah. Basically, what we're doing is we have this engineer come out, you know, going back to having great teams, right? And he's going to segregate all the parts of the property, right? So the window has a certain depreciation like the flooring, right? He segregates it all out on his schedule. And then it basically pushes

the bulk of the depreciation down from 27 and a half years to say seven to 10 years. So you're getting this huge swell of depreciation that's basically wiping out your taxes and you go buy another one. You do the same thing and you keep it going so that you're getting these huge swells of depreciation. I have more than I can use right now, which is great. But, you know, maybe in five years if I stop buying, it would run out. So that's just a strategy, you know, especially works well for us that if we're holding that, you know. A simple book to read is Tom Wheelwright's book. Bridge that port out. He wrote a great book on accounting and what taxes are. Taxes are written to stimulate, to stimulate growth and to stimulate behavior.

And cost segregation is one of those wonderful things that the government's done because they know they can't provide affordable housing. They're short every year and they're going to become shorter into the future. So what they do is they stimulate the economy, they stimulate real estate investors to get out there with one of these bonuses. And it's a wonderful thing. That's why attorneys, doctors, they want to get into these deals. People just focus on cash on cash return and they focus on those things in principle

pay down. But this cost segregation is a huge component to multifamily investing. Yeah. And the other thing is, too, we went back and said we brought investors on or something. We syndicated a deal. Our strategy has been refined role. You know, basically we get into a apartment building that's, you know, the rents are under market. We rehab it a little bit, get the rents up. Then we just pull our money out. So it's not like you get your money tied up forever. You're getting the initial capital back. And then you're staying in for some. You're continuing to cash flow and you're rolling the money in your next deal. That's how we funded, you know, our 900 units up to this point. You know, we usually hear that, we call that I'll run bigger pockets a lot, the burr strategy where you buy a property, rehab it, yeah, rent it, refinance, pull your money out, repeat. We often hear it with like a single family or duplex, but I love to see that you guys are doing this on a single family or duplex. You're, you're repositioning apartment complex, you're burying apartment complexes to grow your wealth, get your money out and do it again and again and again. How long is you're holding period on this? Are you holding them for that seven to ten years while you know, you know, that's what happens is, you know, it's LLC pastors. So it all ends up. you know, it stops with me, right? So, so say I fully depreciated that property. Well, since then, I bought five more. That's just wiping out the taxes. That's why it's, that's why I said the party doesn't stop as long as you keep buying because you keep building up a swell depreciation.

So I got an advanced math question here that may, I hope everyone can follow here. But suppose you buy this property and it's not in very good shape. You raise the rents, you increase it, right? What you've done is you've increased the amount of net operating income, right? But you've also taken a poorly maintained property and turned it into a well-operating one, which should reduce the cap rate that it would sell for on the open market. Is that a fair assessment? It depends what the market's doing. You know, if you look at now, they're saying, well, this is a, you know, because here's the thing, a lot of these asset classes, A, B, C, it's based on a lifespan. Like if it's like less than 10 years old as an A and so on and so on. So you could say, well, I took it from a C to a B. I hear that

a lot. Yeah, I'm not some real estate wizard. Maybe that's true. And I don't want to get some like term definition thing because these guys get pissing and complain about it. Say it's a C plus and now you're calling it a B minus. Well, the cap rate on a B minus may be a little bit lower. So therefore, not only did you increase the NOI, but now it's being valued on a lower cap rate, therefore the value is higher. Does that make sense? Yes. So what I'm asking is suppose you do that, wouldn't it, would it make more sense to sell 1031 exchange that into a lower, a higher cap rate property, back into a C property and repeat the cycle of turning it into. Dude, it's so hard finding these things to begin with, right? Finding the good deal. Why are you letting that thing go? Refite, take the money on,

and then go buy the other property. Keep the tax breaks going. No, that's a great answer. Go ahead. Well, I was going to jump in and say, I have a, I have a perfect story to back this up. So I sold my 20, Brandon, take it away. All right, so I sold my 24 unit apartment complex last summer, right? So I got an offer out of the blue. Some guy wanted to buy it. So I sold it, but I had done a cost segregation study on it, right? Just like we talked about a minute ago. So I got this massive tax break, like a year and a half, two years ago, whatever, when I did that cost segregation study, which was fantastic. But all of a sudden, I had to sell my property, which means if you sell a property and you don't do a 1031 exchange, you now owe all the like

back depreciation for everything you had taken, which means I wasn't like, I was going to make a profit of like 200 grand on this apartment. I was going to owe 130 grand in taxes if I sold. So I had 40, I don't know if you guys remember like ever listening to the podcast, how freaking out I was, like how I was freaking out over trying to find a deal because I had to find a deal because it was going to cost me 130 grand. But see, I should have looking, I didn't realize how hot the market for, I thought I could find another sim. And I did find one. Actually, I got it on day 45, I identified it. But like, it was so hard to find it. So to back up your point, it's incredibly hard to find it. So yeah, you could get a better deal. And you get lucky. Like, I got a deal on day 45. But I had no guarantee. I could have lost 130 grand right then. So that answers my question. And the difficulty in executing that strategy is what is kind of the risk there because you guys are like.

tell anything either. Yeah, one of the things, Scott, I probably shouldn't have, but no, but one of the the things that people talk about 1031 is you have to identify, you have to close in six months. If the other side knows you're doing a 1031, there goes to negotiation. And I know a lot of people would rather pay more for a property to save a few bucks on taxes. That's what people are doing. They're overpaying. And that's why they're sort of, I wouldn't say a bubble in multifamily, well, there's a lot of 1031 money going on that has to get placed. And they've made these huge capital gains. So they're willing to pay, you know, the million bucks for a property to save 300 grand in taxes. That's what these guys are doing. Unfortunately, a lot of people are doing that right now,

so you can't compete with that. So look at the strategy, see if it's beneficial for you to do that. It might be beneficial, but there's a lot of moving parts going on. And we had Matt Faircloth on our show a couple weeks ago talking about how he got ripped off. You have to do proper. You have to get an intermediary. There's a lot of steps that you have to do to take it. So just don't say 1031 is great. They're great if you can execute them and you can find another deal and the deal gets done. So just, you know, watch your steps and make sure that's what you're new. I think 1031 suck.

I would do it about selling. I'm just kidding. No, so the 1031, I think where it comes really handy is let's say, let's say I found a property right now. That was an incredible deal. I go and put it under contract or get close to, right? Now I go and sell my property to go buy that. Like, there's no. Yeah, but having like what I did.

Why you sell it? I sold because I do exactly what Scott said. I brought mine up to the highest level I would ever probably get it. Now, I maxed it out and I wanted to start that process over to build some more equity. You know, I want to. Question, though, was your strategy to cash flow? Because if your strategy is the cash flow and you built it out to the maximum and you're like, hey, I need four grand a month to live, maybe that might have been like, hey, I don't want to touch it.

I've got the golden goose. That golden goose is laying me eggs. And so that might have been another strategy to look at it if you didn't want to exit it out. So. Yeah. And it really comes out of what do you want. What are your goals? What are you looking for?

And at that point, I wasn't looking. I didn't get a ton of cash flow for the equity I had. I knew I could get away. So I actually took the 24 and I turned it into 70 units. So now I'm getting real good cash flow off those 70 units, right? I mean, the other thing, too, is we're in a situation where we get really good cash flow in our market. We're, you know, Southeast, right?

You know, invest in the SEC. I always say that. If you're on the coasts, sometimes, you know, they're buying these things like, you know, San Francisco, New York. It's kind of like a flip game, regardless of it's a, it's a housing or if it's the apartment game. They're buying, trying to get the rents up and then flip it. So it's a little bit more, you know, of a different strategy and mindset, I think.

So there's, you know, if I was on the coast, I'd probably be doing the same thing, you know. Go doors, by the way. Doors? Banderbilt. Oh, I didn't even know that was a thing. We're in Knoxville. We're in Knoxville, all right, my friend. So it's Jesus and then it's UT football.

So you just got to take it easy. I don't want to hear. Just the chair go, hey, yeah, it sucks to be a Tennessee vault. Sorry. Okay. Moving, moving. I got one more. I got one more question before we head to the fire round. Finding deals. It's a hot competitive market today. How are you finding deals today? You know, a lot of guys are out there and I think they're trying to make it rocket science or something that it's not. We just got a deal. It's a $4 million deal. We just were there a minute ago. And we got it through a broker.

It never hit the market. They know we're closes. They know we're going to get it done. So we get deals brought to us. And then we execute and we perform on them. Okay. A lot of these guys are not willing to kind of go out in the front end, build the relationships with the brokers. And if you have to, get a few small deals done. Let them know that you perform. And then the next time it's a bigger one, maybe they're going to give you a whack at it because it's hard right now. A lot of deals that people are doing may never hit the market. You may never find out about them.

You have to have the relationships. You can create a strategy where you're calling owners up and sending mailers out. We've never done it. I'm sure it works fine. But, you know, five years later, we have over 50 million in multifamily now not using that strategy. So I think it's very important find the brokers in your area that are real multifamily brokers. You know, we get we get some of these, you want to be sometimes shown us deals and things like that. And it's like a five cap and they're never going to sell this thing.

All right. I mean, you know, there's a few good, probably five guys, you know, maybe 10 guys in your market that are really the guys that are moving the multifamily. And guess what? When you go out to lunch with them, pay for lunch. Yes, they're the salesman, but guess what? They're putting meat on your plate. You want to, you know, buy them a gift. We had a giftology guide, you know, they're there on the show.

Be a good guy. take them out, do something cool for them, let them know that you're going to perform when they bring you the deal. It's amazing, John Ruland. He had a great, great podcast. I love that whole thing. And it's so simple. Why is everyone giving gifts during Christmas? Give a gift guide during March when he least expected. And really make it a valuable gift. Make it something that stands out. Make it something. Hey, he's a Vanderbilt guy. He likes football. Get him something for Vanderbilt football. Those guys are you. I never heard of them. But you know, it's all about building rapport with somebody. It's all about building that trust with somebody. And you know what? When they send you a deal with, deal that stinks, get it over to them and say, listen, it's a five cap. I'm really trying to buy seven caps. Let them know what your parameters are and get back to them ASAP because they like that. Get back to them, like Jake said, you know, once you're a closure and they know you're a closure

Yeah, they get you a deal. Analyze and get it back to them say, hey, I don't want to waste your time. This is not the one for me, but I've looked at it. This is what I think about it. I want to see the next. I love that. Yeah. I love that. That's such a good tip. And that's good for anybody. I mean, anybody doing large, multi- or even a single family house, your real estate agent sends you a deal. Tell them what you like, what you didn't like about it. Give them that feedback. then wait for the next one to come. And treat them like gold. These people can basically, you know, help you build an empire where you can retire in a few years.

Yeah. That is your, that is your source to the gold right there. Treat those people like gold. Okay. So once you have these deals, how you funded them? Cash money, brother. We just said, refined gold. No, no, I'll be a little more specific.

I'm just fine. So we're moving a lot more to the agencies, Freddie Mac. You know, we're getting agency debt on these things. But, you know, we're going in. We're finding real opportunities. We're not getting deals at, you know, like a five, six cap, right? We'll find a real opportunity. We're increasing the NOI, where we refine the money out of them.

I mean, you just said we refied about seven million bucks over the last next amount of years out of our deals. And we repurpose it into our new acquisition. Scott, I'll tell you, I'll give you the case study of our first deal. Our first deal was a 25-8 deal. It was $600,000, $80,000, bank financing, 10% owner financing. We came up with $10,000. Me, Jake, and my brother came up with $83,000 of closing. But 18 months later, we'd gotten in a,

up was valued at $800,000. Now, on the terms, we went to a community bank. We got a 20-year amortization, 5.5% interest rate. It's killing us and a five-year term. But we got that because the bank let us do owner financing. 18 months later, we refied out. We pulled out $160,000. Terms went down to 4.5% interest rate, 25-year am and a 7-year term, a 10-year term. And so the great thing about it was our mortgage payments stayed the same because all of a sudden, we got this better. We got a longer AM, lower interest rate. So when we pull it, we put it, hold out 160 grand. We put in 80. We took out 160. That 160 rolled into our next deal. So what we did were our first set of refinances. We went from a community bank to another community bank. We rolled them out. We got

better terms on our second deal that I had spoken about. It was a 20 year am. We got a three year term, guys. That stunk, but we're so desperate. Don't do that. Yeah. We're so desperate. And we knew that there was so much meaning of the bone. They were doing 10 grand a month in revenue. We got it up to 18 grand within a years. So we're able to. And can I chime in here real quick and say, hey, you're talking about the loan is going to come, the note's going to come due in three years. That's when you say a three year term. That's right. I'm sorry. Exactly. It's going to balloon in three years. But we knew within 12 months, we were going to able to bring it to another bank and to refinance it out. I think we were just so thrilled to get it. You know, so that's what it came down to a 20 year am. So we refied

the second property from community bank to another community bank, which went from 20 years amortization to 25 year amortization. We got a seven year term. Now, the same deal. here six months ago we brought it to freddie because actually we pulled out another 100 something thousand dollars in this property we went to a 30 year amortization from a 25 year we pulled out the money three years of interest only we got a 10 year term on this at four and a half percent so the mortgage payment is more or less stayed the same from refining and refining refing because the ams going out now the three years of interest only now within three years principal is going to reset on this thing but i think with the with the 3 percent rate increases going forward within three years our income is

going to be back up to where when the principal resets, it's going to like. So that's what we call the velocitization of money. We're actually becoming the bank. That's why banks are wealthy, because we're using money. We're using phantom money that we've created, phantom value that we've created to velocitize it to buy the next deal. Now, listen, don't go out, don't spend the money, don't party. You have to be diligent. You have to use this money to repurpose it into another deal. He's got a sick Porsche. Don't listen to him. And I see the dollars. No, I was just thinking, you got a 30-year mortgage on a on a, on a multifamily from Freddie Macs. It sounds like the goal here is to get.

They're all 30-year-air. They're all 30-year ends, but they're 10-year terms. They're locked for 10-year. Yeah. Still, that's great. Yeah, but HUD, HUD's got a program. It's 35, 35-year-fixed, you know, that you can go and refi on. And that, that's, you know, we really want to move a few of our properties over there

simply because I think our biggest risk in this point is interest rate risk in 10 years. So if I can move, you know, half the debt over to a 35-year fixed loan, There's some stipulate. Like they let you draw like every six months and there's some other things that are not cool and they take six months to do with the government. Yeah. But I mean, if you do one of these, that's why we're actually getting another assistant on to actually handle that paperwork. Because if you get over there, it's like it's like boxing out playing defense, right? How do I, how do I stay in this for the long term? Getting some that's fixed for 35 years when interest rate risk is your biggest, you know, risk that you have. That's what we're trying to do right now. So Scott, to pull it back from the very beginning, we talked about that one little 25 unit property. What it actually did was we were able to read. we financed that out. We were able to make our mistakes, take our lungs. Hey, listen, we look back.

20 or am, five and a point above, we made a lot of those mistakes. That's why. The deal was a mistake, but it was the best mistake we ever. I mean, it had septic fields on it, had drug dealers, it had naked dudes showing the thing thing. It was, it was faster, okay? But if we wouldn't have done that, nothing else happens. That's why I'm saying you guys got to lean in, get in, figure it out, Google what you're afraid of. Google will say it's okay, and you'll get past it, and you can do it. I don't want to sound like a motivational crazy person, but I really do believe that. No, I love it. I, I've always thought that the next problem for me with my business is going to be moving into these commercial properties and having these unfavorable loan

terms. Because right now I use conventional loans from Fannie Mae and, you know, you know, and they're 30 years. When they give you a 20 year term, say no, I want a 25. When they give you a three year am, say no, I want 10. And then shop it with three to five different banks. But don't do the guys that are established. Get the community banks in your area that are hungry, looking to grow. you're going to be able to work with them and then just pit them against each other. Say this guy's doing that, he's doing this and then they start to fight each other. We don't do that though, but I'm just saying you couldn't. It would probably work. Scott, just think of money. Money's being a commodity. Once something becomes a commodity, it trades at the base level and, you know, spreads become really

thin. And that's all money is. You can get money anywhere. Money's cheap right now. Money's not the problem. I think the deal is the problem right now. So for you to go and everything is negotiable, every single thing. You start out with the highest rate at 10 years or 15. year term and then you can work your way back down. So, yeah, he was teaching me about like this blockchain Bitcoin in the black side of the internet today. I'm like, dude, I don't even get it. I mean, you know, things are going on there, right?

So, dude, it's happening. Bernie, how do you feel about Bitcoin? Yeah, yeah, I'll hear you guys. Dude, it's an amazing technology. I mean, it is the decentralization. It is going to be what's happening, pro. Give it about 10 years. Everyone thinks it was a currency.

It's not a currency. It's actually the technology. It's going to be awesome. I can't wait. I can't wait until banks have no control anymore. I just can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait.

I hope I'll be around for that. She has going to be here for a while. I hope so. What do you think? All right. I, well, I won't get to do it.

I just video called Bitcoin is a stupid, horrible, terrible thing to invest in that has, it starts out that way. Back in 89, started out that way. Started out that same week. Everything starts out that way.

And then 15 years later, we're like, wow. I have no idea what it is, so I don't have no comment. I just, that's, that,

so that was my point. is that nobody knows what it is. And yet people are like, I'm out of real estate. I'm going to go throw my money in the Bitcoin when it was out like the peak. You just don't understand the whole. Yeah, that's what I'm, yeah, it's blockchain. I'm like, no, it's called. Yeah, anyway.

The blockchain sounds like some kind of candy or something to eat. I've got no idea with this. All right, all right. All right, we're moving on. It's time for the fire round. Now let's get to today's fire round. Of course, you can get to the, uh, these questions are from the bigger pockets forms, which you can get to at pagerpockets.com.

S. Forms. We're going to fire them at Jake and Gino here. See what you've got to say. Number one. Let's see scrolling down here. All right, number one. What is your best, or do you have any good hacks as a landlord? Anything that you just found,

it's kind of a hack as a landlord that works really well. No, I mean, I think there's a lot of things. I think you want to find ways to create additional revenue streams within your business. Whether you're doing rubs, whether you're doing a trash valet, whether you're making money on your applications. There's so many ways to make money that's not just on the rent. And this is not like fee people to death. You know, he gave me like this book, the fee Bible or something like it's not about

that, but it's when you're providing services. Knoxville is a huge town for animals. We have our multi-family units in Knoxville. We are super pet friendly, but look, pets got to pay too. Doggy's got to pay the rent, okay? We make some money on Doggy, okay? So I think it's finding additional revenue streams within your business and then building additional revenue streams outside of your business to support your business.

brand the other thing I did was I wrote a tenant guide and I wrote a moving guide. So if you go to our website, brand property management, our management website, you can go on there. Tenants can download that. So I wrote it for them. So it's always about creating value for tenants. I mean, was it a pain in the S? Yeah. And the reason why I wrote the moving guide is I actually moved. So when I went to move six months ago, I was like, I don't know where to start. So I actually started building it out. So it's just a way to alleviate and to help the tenant. I always think about asking problems, creating solutions for their problems. I had a big pain point. They didn't know how to move. ended up doing that. You should, you should be created a little ancillary business and sell that thing

to other landlords for like nine bucks on your website. This is a great idea. And you can pay your rent on the website. So if folks are listening, don't forget to pay your rent on the website. There you go. That's the, that's as tech as I get right there, okay? I don't know the blockchain, but I know we can pay online. So there you go. All right, good. I like that. I really like that a lot. That's cool. What is the best flooring? What's your go-to flooring for your rentals? We love the vinyl. Okay. We go vinyl everywhere. You know, on the second floor, we still go carpet because of the pad, blah, blah, blah. If there's spandex, you know, the concrete stuff, we will go with vinyl.

But, you know, I said before, the only things we really sub about it, we got a company that does all of our flooring, they do all of our paint, they do it for a very affordable price. So we have like, you know, I think there's like a tawny oak and like this gray stuff. And the ladies at work for us are really great at design and put nice things together. So I let them run with it. They're good at it. I'm not. They put it together.

But we keep it simple. We got, you know, a good price for vinyl flooring. We're CX property. So that's what we use. in our property. So we fancy though. We fancy. All right, good. Number three, I'm young, self-employed, and I have huge cash reserves in, I live in Southern California. What would, what would you do if you were in my position? Get the hell out. Someone told me it's like 10 or 15 percent state income tax. Get out of there, man. You're nuts. No, but seriously, get out.

You're just getting raped, okay? You get to get through the table and it hurts. Okay. So get out number one. If you want to get in a multifamily, which you should, get out of there, go someplace nice. Like live next to my boy, the G Daddy, go buy 150 unit complex, put a great team in place, make it happen. And, you know, still a nice beach and jack. So you couldn't go to Tampa too. That would be cool. Well, you know what?

What are your goals? I mean, you got to see yourself employed. Do you want to stay self-employed or do you want to have real estate, you know, become your full-time business? That's the first thing I think you should end up doing. Second thing is educate, educate, educate, educate. A man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience, the man with the experience get the money and the man with the money gets the experienced. Always remember that guys. Come educated. Educate yourself. It's all about responsibility. So know what you want to do with that

money. I mean, the richest man in Babylon, best book ever written. Easiest book you can ever read. 10% of your income, don't go in the business with dirt bags, basically. Only trust people. You know, you're not going to get a shield guy to go do glass beads and make go diamonds and jewelry. Get somebody who's a multifamily syndicator. Learn the ropes from him if that's what you want to get into. If you want to go into the single family space, Rock it with Jay, you know, Jay Scott, whoever it is, learn from somebody who's doing it. You don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Go copy somebody who's doing it. We'll learn from somebody who's doing it. If that's what you want to do. And if you come work for us, you get hour long sessions of this during our financial training meeting. Can you imagine that? I don't know. I don't know about that, though. I love it. I love it. Very serious and difficult final question here, which is tenants are complaining of paranormal activity.

How should I handle it? Blockchain. I mean, listen, it's all about, you know, having a customer, you know, focused attitude, right? We want to become the chick filet of apartments, right? Chick-fil-A, they go in, they say thank you. They really appreciate you. It just depends how busy the office is that day, right? But if we could, hey, tell us about that.

What's going on with the paranormal activity? We're here for you, right? Customer first. We believe that renting is personal and our residents are our number one priority. Okay? That's us. We're those guys. If we can go, we'll look for the alien with you.

We'll make you feel good about it. You know, maybe we'll put a camera up or some so we can catch the alien and shoot it. Okay, I don't know, but we're going to try to be there for you and make sure that, you know, you're feeling like you're being taken care of. That's number one. On a more serious note, dude, I'm going to blast me. Maybe it's not the alien. Maybe they just want to come in and complain about something else.

Objections and complaints are really good because then you know what the real problem is. So you always want to find the problem. You always want to listen to people's objections and complaints. Because if they're objecting about something, whether you're selling them something, that's good because they're interested in it. So they're interested in your property. Go figure out what they're really talking about and try to solve it. Oh, so it's at a deeper level. Life coach, folks.

Well, are you ethically required to disclose a haunting, do you think? That's a good question. I don't, I don't think so. I can ask HR. We got HR in the house like this is actually my question. The haunting, wait, oh, I think you're talking aliens. You're talking like it, like a wound is killing people, right? Yeah.

It could be either, but yeah. Or what was the ghost? Blair, what's? Yeah. Blair haunting. I don't know. It could happen. All right.

We're moving on. All right. Let's head to the last segment of the show, which we call our famous four. All right. This is time for the famous four. These are the same four questions we ask every guest every week. We've asked you guys it before when you were on the show last time, but we'll ask it again now in case it's changed. Number one, each of you.

Do you have a favorite real estate specifically real estate related book? A couple. That's not your own. That's not your own because I know you wrote one, right? No. You said it. Oh, okay. I love Kenak, but.

books. ABC's real estate investing. I do too. This guy's property management. Breaks it down really simple. And he's done it. We had him on the show. He's got 10,000 units. He's syndicated. He makes it really easy for guys. I love the books. I think they're awesome.

Got to go my boy, Fixer Jay. It's the only one and only I've really ever read. So my boy, fixture Jay to see him. I'm sure I said the same thing last time. He's got some good books. I also read some of, yeah. I do like Fixer Jay. All right. Scott. What is your favorite business,

related book. Not doesn't have to be real estate. I always go back to this. Atlas Shrug was the most impactful book that I've ever read. I think it's I think it's business related. I said it before. It's all up here in your head, right? So you get your mind right, be objective and, uh, in, uh, and give me some mind ran all day. I don't know if it's business related. I just like Napoleon think he can grow rich. I mean, it's basically every guru is stolen from Napoleon. Guy who, you know, gone out for 25 years and, and he was actually talking to all the guys who were rich positioning himself. I mean, actually educating himself and knows about the Rich and all those steps. I love the book. I think it's awesome. All right. Number three,

trench. What are your favorite hobbies? What do you guys do for fun? Hmm. We build businesses, man. We really enjoy it. But no, like he came down with the family this year. There was a flood in Florida. We went out in the lake. We were doing paddleboarding. You know, I don't know, we just, we just like to kick back, spend time with the fam and, you know, pretty easy. Keep it simple. I got, well, hold on. So something I'm working on right now, I said before, you may hear the grinding in the back. I bought this really awesome. distressed, you know, three acre house on the lake last year. And we got all these trees around us. We're clearing up all these trees doing beautiful landscaping. And I'm really,

really enjoying that right now. So I got a rehab going on that I don't plan in selling. Awesome. Nice. Nice. Nice. All right. Last question. What do you guys believe sets apart successful real estate investors from all those who give up, fail, or never get started? Well, real easy. It's giving up. I mean, it's giving up. And it's actually, you know, highlighting why you want to get into it. And also your goal, and strategies and the techniques. I mean, just learn them. If you want to get into multifamily, please just focus on multifamily. Don't be jumping around to fix and flip. Now, I understand in the very beginning, you might need to do wholesale and fixing and flipping to build up that cash

or serve. But ultimately, that's a drug. I mean, transactions are not going to create wealth. Equities and create wealth. And then you get caught in that transaction grind where you're just doing one to the next to the next to the next. Focus on what you really want to what you really want to try to accomplish. You know, going back to it, you got to work your ass off, lean in and make it happen. I mean, I know it's like way oversimplified, but don't quit. Work your butt off and you can figure this stuff out. It's not rocket science. You know, we talked about the, the by right, manage, right, finance right earlier. There's, there's, there's, there's, there's a lot of education out there. So if you're willing to put the work in, you're willing to work past your nine to five

if you need to, you're going to figure it out. It took us about a year and a half and then, you know, things really took off for us. So, you know, we're not the like the smartest two guys by any means. We just have serious blue color work ethic and we're willing to do it. So if you're willing to do it, you know, lean into it, you're going to, I think you're going to be successful. All right. I shouldn't even have graduated high school. I think they just pushed me through it. Good.

I can't read. I can barely write, you know, so. Well, do you have a website or anything like that where people can find out more about you? Yeah, we got a few websites. We got, we got jacinjino.com, which is really, really awesome. We got ran property management.com. We got Rand Partners, LLC.com. We're trying to contain everything into those three sites right there.

And our podcast is freaking awesome, man. Can I say that? I don't know. It is. I've been on it. That's good. People should listen. All right, guys.

Thank you so much. It's been awesome. And we'll see you around. Bye, guys. Thanks. Bye. Thanks. All right.

And that was an interview with Jake and Gino. That was awesome because those guys are where I want to be. Like, I want to move towards what they're doing more and more. And I love picking people's brain like that. Yeah. I think it was fantastic. They have a ton of great perspective on there. they've clearly thought through their strategy from a very high level.

And they're like, hey, we're going to do all these different things to increase our odds of success with all these ancillary. Ancillary. Ancillary. Ancillary. Ancillararily.

I don't know. Somebody hit up Scott on Twitter at Scott B.P. Is that your Twitter? I think it's at Scott Trench BP. Ah, okay. Well, whatever it is. Hit them up on Twitter and let them know how to pronounce it. I don't know how you do that over Twitter, but we're going to do it.

Yeah, tell me how you pronounce ancillary. Is it ancillary or inciner? And so larry. And so anyway, anyway, solid show, solid guys, solid dudes. So check out their podcast. It's good. And yeah,

if you guys want to learn more about multifamily investing, we got a lot of information all over bigger pockets, all about it. Use that search bar, like we said in the quick tip. Type in multifamily, apartment complex, whatever,

you're going to find more information that you could ever read on a lifetime. So, anyway, Scott, didn't you get hurt the other day? Or was that an old picture I saw that you sent to me and Josh? No, no.

Josh likes to every once in a while, circle around the picture of my fresh eye wound from rugby. Okay. All right. Because I was going to say, I'm looking at you right now, and you look fine. I was like, wait a second. I saw a picture of you. I got the scars, but there, yeah, no fresh wounds.

Chicks dig scars. Yeah. It's a great. Let's get out of here. You want to take us out? All right. How do I take us out? Hold on.

I haven't done this in a while. No, I think they should leave this in here. This is great. You're going to say, you're going to say, this is Bigger Pockets podcast. This is Scott Tredge signing off. That was the best ending ever. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the height, you're in the right place.

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