BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 276: Early Retirement ($10k/Month) by Age 35 with Bryce Stewart

Episode Date: April 26, 2018

Why work at a lame job until you’re too old to enjoy the life you’ve been given? If you are looking to get out of the rat race earlier, this is one episode you can’t afford to miss. Today on The BiggerPockets Podcast, we sit down with Bryce Stewart, a former school teacher who was able to quit his job at age 35 through the smart purchases of small multifamily properties. Bryce shares his powerful story on how he was able to build a portfolio of 22 units that give him $10,000 per month in income. Bryce also shares a phenomenal concept he called “vacuuming the truck,” which could change the way you think about real estate (and life) forever. In This Episode We Cover: Bryce’s special introduction His inauspicious beginning as a real estate investor What he learned from his mistakes How a friend who lives for free in his apartment influenced him What he’s learned from having his first duplex What you should know about PITI How he financed the purchase of his duplex The upsides of being a landlord The risks of real estate investing The “vacuum truck” story The number of units he has and the reason he retired How to seek out “hidden ROIs” How he finds and funds deals What his future looks like And SO much more! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums Trulia Zillow HotPads Broke to Retired in 15 Years Mr. Money Mustache Grant Cardone BiggerPockets Podcast 272: No Money, No Deals, No Time? Overcoming Real Estate’s “Big Three” with Brandon Turner & David Greene Tweet Mindy BiggerPockets Youtube Channel Books Mentioned in this Show Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill Fire Round Questions Would you decrease monthly rent in order to keep a good tenant? I’m having a hard time finding a QUALIFIED tenant. Where do you list your properties for rent? Tweetable Topics: “You can live more cheaply by buying a multifamily.” (Tweet This!) “Sometimes you need a partner to push you to be a little stronger.” (Tweet This!) “You don’t want to mitigate the risk of real estate. They are there.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Bryce Bryce’s BiggerPockets Profile Bryce’s Youtube Channel Bryce’s Company Website Bryce’s Email Address Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 276. You know what? I don't know how to sell a truck that has a loan on it, but I know how to vacuum my truck. And that's free. That's free. So that day, I went out with my shop vac and I freaking vacuum the truck. And then the next day, I'm like, okay, I don't know how to sell a truck with a loan on it, but my wife knows how to take pictures and she's got a good eye.

Still free, right? So she takes pictures. And I'm like, all right, I don't know how to sell a truck with a loan on it, but I know how to make a Craigslist ad, and that's still free. So I make a Craigslist ad. People start calling me, and I'm like, I guess I can let them test drive my truck. Still free, right? Anything cost any money yet, guys?

That's still free. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have. benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everyone?

This is Brandon Turner. Today's host of the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my wonderful, amazing co-host, Mr. David Green. How you doing, buddy? I am doing pretty good. I just got off the phone with my banker. I'm working myself through two different refinances right now. I hate refinances.

You're not kidding, man. The fun part of real estate is buying. it and then the annoying part is having to find the funding for it. So we're kind of going back and forth about what stuff they need. I'm ordering surveys and I'm ordering like the flood survey to know if I need flood insurance there and getting appraisals and going through everything. So the good news is once these things close, I'll have a whole bunch of money and I'll be able to go buy a bunch more houses. But right now I'm just trying to stay the course and remind myself that I need to be disciplined because the fun parts right around the corner. There you go. Yeah. Like, you know, we talk a lot

about the birth strategy, right? Buy rehab, rent, refinance, repeat. The refinance is definitely the worst part of that entire process, having to refinance properties. But again, once you find a good banker, good lender, and once you get all your documents organized and everything becomes a whole lot easier, but it is annoying. Do you know what I'm the last refinance had to do? Did I tell you this? I had to write a, like, this is all like ridiculous there. I don't know, like underwriting was.

I was trying to go conventional. I was able to do it. I went conventional residential loan. But they require that I write them an essay, an actual essay on the benefits of refinancing real estate. Like, I had to write a blog post. for Fannie Mae on the benefits of, like, unbelievable. Like, I'm like, why does this even matter?

Like, why do I have to write you an essay on the benefits of re? It's because you can get your cash out and you can lower your interest. That's what it was. I had to write them an essay, like a five point essay. Anyway, ridiculous. You got homework from someone that was going to make a lot of money from you. That's awesome. It was so unbelievable.

Anyway, okay, we got to move on with today's show because today's show is unbelievable. I know I say that a lot because I'm a huge fan of our show. But today's show, like, really, this could be one of the most life-changing shows for a lot of people. Because this guy is like an average Joe who retired at age 35. He was a teacher, like a middle school teacher, retired at age 35. And he talks about how he did that through just small multifamily properties. And especially, I want to just point out, make sure you guys listen close when he's talking about vacuuming the truck. Not going to tell you anything more about that.

But when you hear about vacuuming the truck, like take some notes. Like this is unbelievable. So stay tuned for that. You guys are going to love it. All right. well with that let's move on to the quick tip tip I jumped that on you didn't you you know you didn't know that was coming no I didn't you're always sneaking a quick tip in there and I only catch the very end of it all right so today's quick tip is track your entire net worth okay this is very important for several

reasons one of the things our guest talks about how he writes down what his goals are and it kind of it activates what we call the reticular activating system in your brain where once you've told yourself hey, I'm looking for this or I want to do this, your subconscious starts bringing attention. It's the part of your brain that when you buy a black Honda, now of a sudden, all of a sudden, you see black Honda is driving down the road all the time, okay? I want you to track your net worth because what you find is you will have opportunities to finance real estate, to pull money out of an asset you have versus borrowing it from someone if you didn't have to, that you won't think about if you're not tracking your net worth.

So our guest today talks about how he borrowed money from other people who took helox on their property, you might have a ton of equity in your primary residence and you don't even realize it because you're not tracking your net worth and you don't know, you have equity there. You might have a car with a high value that you could go take a short term auto loan on. You might be able to take a business loan because you have a business that's making a lot of money. If you track your entire net worth, you'll see where you have assets with equity in them and you'll have opportunities to borrow money to buy more real estate. Branden and I talk about all the time. You get that first deal under your belt and you do well on it. It's probably going to buy your second deal and then your third. So it's so

important that you know what opportunities you have to make your own job easier of finding real estate, track your net worth, and you'll start seeing that stuff pop up. Nice. The not so quick tip. Yeah, that's a good point. No, it's okay. I like it. It's such a good idea.

And I didn't do that for a long time. And I was so unorganized. But now I'm much more organized than how I do that. I have an uncomfortable question for you. If your rent collection drop to 80% next month, how long would your cash flow hold up? What about 70% for the? the next three months. Would your cash reserves cover it? I talk all the time about scenario planning. Smart investors don't just model the upside. They also pressure test the downside. This is even more

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like an investment. And now, let's get into the show before we introduce you to Bryce, which I'm actually read an introduction here in just a minute when we get into the show. But before we get to it, I just want to ask you guys again, as always, if you love this show, if you want to help us out, the best way you can do so is by sending a check certified for $100,000 to David Green or Britain. Leave us a review in iTunes and rating a review in iTunes. helps us out a ton. All right, without the $100,000 check, we'll still continue. Let's get to the show. All right, so I'm going to start today's episode a little bit different. I'm actually going to read an introduction that our guest today, Bryce sent. And then I'm going to welcome you, Bryce to the show.

Bryce is here now. I just want to read this because this is awesome. All right, when we asked him why we should talk to him, we sent whenever people ask to be on the show or we asked people to be on the show, we want to figure out what are they going to talk about today. So here's what his response was. The reason they need to hear from me is I'm a complete idiot. Now, this is Bryce, I'm quoting Bryce on here. I'm a complete idiot. I mean it. I took zero business courses in college.

The highest level of math I took was mathematics teaching principles for elementary students. On top of that, prior to my first duplex, I barely knew how to hang a picture, never watched HGTV. My natural disposition and demeanor is not type A, and I'm not particularly disciplined or well trained. I had no marketable or useful skills pertaining to investing real estate or even personal finance when I began my early retirement. journey. So in other words, you had no idea what you're doing. So Bryce, welcome to the Bigger Pockets podcast. That's awesome. Hey, thanks. That's quite an introduction. I appreciate that. It's different than a lot of people maybe like feel about real estate investors, right? They feel like I was successful and I'm wicked smart and I got really rich family and friends. And I

come from this strong business background. And you know, that's why I'm successful. And you're like, nah, that's not how it is. No, exactly right. When you have compelling reasons to succeed, that's what drives you forward. It's not always the skills. Those can come as you go through your journey. It's the compelling reasons that really drive it. So for me, that's what it was. And I should throw on there. The other reason you should listen to me is that I retired at age 35 and I'm making $10,000 a month passively from real estate income. So I went from being an elementary school teacher to being a retired real estate investor before I was age 35. That's awesome. That's awesome. All right. So I want to dive into your story, of course, like starting at the very beginning because, I mean, getting all that is awesome. But, you know, how'd you get started with this

thing? What was a very first deal look like? It was a rock star deal. I'm assuming making thousands a month. Absolutely not. My first deal was my biggest mistake. And it's still, I'm actually still paying for it today. In 2006, my wife and I were engaged. We decided we would buy a one bedroom condo, a luxury one bedroom, one bathroom, one bathroom condominium. And we didn't realize until two years later after the 07 crash, that one, we couldn't sell it for even what we had bought it for. So we were underwater on it. And two, we couldn't even rent it out for what the fixed costs were month to month on the place. So we got pregnant while we were living there and we wanted to move out of the one bedroom,

one bathroom, one bathroom condo. And that's when I started doing the math and realized, oh, crap, we're going to lose at least $300 a month on this place. That's when my real estate education began, $300 a month in the whole. So that's a pretty inauspicious beginning if there ever was one for a real estate investor. Well, and so would you recommend, I mean, we're going to get into more of your story here, but like this is something that so many people do, right? The typical American dream story ever is like, you know, guy and girl or, you know,

whatever, guy and whatever meet and they get together, you know, and they buy a nice, fancy whatever house and like their dream home. And because they got two incomes coming in, everything's great. They start having kids. Everything's fine. That's what everybody does, but you're saying that was maybe not a good idea. Right. We looked at it as if we would have two incomes forever, which is so foolish.

And we got burned with it. We didn't have the cash to make up the difference in selling it. And we ended up needing to move out. We became tenants. So we rented a two-bedroom apartment. We had our first daughter while we were living there. And we were simultaneously landlords losing $300 a month. And that was with the place occupied.

So even with a great rental, we're losing $300 a month. I have a young infant daughter. I have a wife who is putting in not quite full-time hours in her job because we want her to be able to stay home and take care of the daughter. And then, guys, I'm not kidding you, four months after we had our daughter, I come home, I walk up to this third floor walk-up apartment. And my wife is laying on the floor bawling her eyes out. And I'm like, what is the matter? And that's when she goes, I'm pregnant again. So I went from, we went from me, from me, like, looking at her.

hours reduced to essentially it going down to one salary, right? Because now she's going to need to take care of two infants and me going from, you know, feeding two mouths with two salaries to feeding four mouths on one salary. And that's when I was like, I got to do something different. And I was a teacher. I was a school teacher. So I really, I could look at what my income was going to be the next year. And it was not enough for where we were. Okay. So you clearly came out of the gates on fire. And you just couldn't miss. You crushed it with your first deal. And then you found your income was being cut in half. And you had a lot of confidence because you've done so good on your first deal that you knew like, hey, I should just go invest in real estate. I'm really good at this.

And I have a lot of free time and extra money with these babies. I was, I was beat up. We were beat up. And we, you know, we had been making spending choices that two people with two salaries and no kids, you know, would make. And we really, we had to curb that. But I had to look at the income side and figure out how am I going to make more money. So what I'm seeing here is the beginnings of a beautiful story where you looked at everything you didn't like about your life and took responsibility and said, I want this to be different. Am I close, Bryce with how this worked out? Yeah, you are.

And if I quote the great Jim Rohn, right, he said, if you picked up a book and the chapter one said everything was perfect. And then chapter two said everything was still perfect. And then chapter three said everything was still perfect. you'd stop reading that book. That's not a very interesting story. So we had, you know, it was terrible to begin with. And that really was kind of the compelling reason for me to move forward. In a way, that first deal being such a bust is what put me on the path to making it right. So, you know, silver lining, that's what motivated me. Okay. So tell us what you learned from those mistakes and how

you incorporated that into your real estate investing career because you've clearly turned things around since then. Well, the first thing I learned was that Fannie Mae and the gigantic financial and mortgage system in our country holds a lot of and controls a lot of the value for condominiums. So we were stuck with something we couldn't sell. You know, that segment got burned so hard in 07. But honestly, I got to that point and I had to think backwards. Let me rewind a little bit for you guys. When I was 23 and fresh out of school, the first job I had, I was living with my parents in my high school bedroom paying my dad $300 a month because my dad's that kind of guy. And working at this job, I was 23. I worked with another 23 year old, three year old. I asked him where he lives and he says,

my college roommate and I bought a four unit apartment building. We room together in one of the units and rent the other three out. And at age 23, I was like, wait, I don't get it. I thought only big companies owned apartment buildings. I didn't understand that people could actually own apartment building. That was like new to me. So I started asking him all these questions. Like, isn't that a high mortgage? He's like, well, it's not low, but we pay the mortgage with the rents from the other three units. I'm like, well, what about like taxes and insurance? He's like, dude, we pay it with the rents from the other three units. I'm like, well, isn't there a high electric bill, right? High water bill, high electric bill? He's like, well, it's metered separately.

So I really couldn't tell you what they do. But to be honest, we pay our utilities with the rents from the other three units. And I was like, dude, are you, you're freaking living there for free. I'm paying $300 a month to live in my high school bedroom. And the guy goes, he's like, utmost, dude. It also puts $100 in each of our pockets every month. And I was like, what do you do with money from this job? He's like, stock market, baby. So that was, and I was, I was pissed. Guys, I'll be honest with that, that was really pissed because I went to a good college. I had a decent degree. I had smart parents and nobody had ever told me before you can make money from something besides your job.

So I grabbed that guy in the lunchroom and I was like, you need to tell me how you did what you did. And that's when he gave me his copy of the book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, which I'm sure a lot of your listeners have read before. So I read that book like, I don't know, in maybe a day and a half. And I swore to myself, if I ever get the shot at doing this, this kind of thing, what this guy did, I'm going to take it.

So fast forward back to me, you know, having a pregnant wife being $300, a month in the whole living in a third floor walkup apartment, I was like, okay, it's time. You know, it's now or never. I got to do this. And, you know, maybe some of your listeners are in that spot. Maybe they're not, but you get to a point where you're like, okay, all right, I struck out enough in Little League with my bat on my shoulder. I'm not going to strike out in life with my bat on my shoulder. I'm taking a swing at this thing. So the first step I took was I called a realtor. I had never done that before. And I asked, I'm like, can I see some, I don't know what they're called,

multi-family properties. So she takes me to one, we do a showing, we go into this duplex, it smells like piss and cats and cigarettes, and I didn't like it. And I walked away, but it got me on her auto email for multifamilies locally. I live in a city of about 75,000 people in a pretty large metro area. So I started getting these emails of duplexes, triplexes, quads. in my area there. And like two months later, you know, we get an auto email of this place that's just,

it's gorgeous. It's a duplex. It's like a New York style apartment. And it's nicer than the place that we're living in, right? So that was the first thing that caught my eye was the pictures. But it also has an apartment that's making money on the first floor. So we go to see this place and I quantify it and realize that the PITI,

and this is key for your listeners, right? This is how you first want to approach a deal. You see something that you like or you think it's in a good area. Okay, your first move is, what's this going to cost me in terms of P&I, principal and interest? What are the taxes? Because they might be, you know, crazy high. You don't know. And then you can usually ballpark the insurance and figure out what your fixed monthly costs are for the place.

And then you look at the rents. And for me, I looked at it. And I think the PITI was going to be $1,200 a month. And the rent coming in was $600 a month on the first floor. And I'm like, well, wait, we can live there then for net. $600 out of our pockets. And we were paying $8.50 to rent where we were. So, you know, I've got a pregnant wife, a small daughter, and I'm like, man, I can't afford not to invest in this duplex. It's going to save us $250 every month. So that was really the first lesson was I can live more

cheaply by buying a multifamily and doing half of what this kid out of college did and then make that work. That was my first deal and that really cut my teeth. Okay. So you bought those duplex. At the time, were you thinking things like repairs and maintenance, like the fact that you'd have to cover that kind of stuff? Or were you not really worried about it? We're going to do your own work? How did you calculate that in the beginning? I was not thinking that. And honestly, in retrospect, I probably was not giving enough credence to that metric.

But, you know, that can be all over the place. And that kind of stuff happens when you buy a single family home, too. Yeah. You know, you have repairs and maintenance in a single family home. So that's not really a detractor from multifamily as much as it's a detractor from owning real estate, period. You know, we had one waistline. We had one roof. We had one set of gutters.

It would just happen to be a duplex. So, you know, I don't necessarily buy the whole R&M argument as a detractor for it. You got to move ahead with it anyhow. Start with the PITI. Cool. You got one lawn to mow, you know, one tax bill. So PIT has to start. I love that.

I love that. And again, we call this house hacking, you know, bigger pockets a lot because you're, you're finding a way to live cheaper. or maybe for free. I mean, like in this duplex, you were now living for 600 bucks a month instead of paying $8.50 somewhere else. And you own the property.

You're building equity. You're paying the loan down. You're getting the tax benefits. You're getting all this great things about owning real estate. And you do it with a very low down payment. Usually, is that what you did for this? Did you get an FHA loan or something? Or how did you finance it?

Yeah, that's exactly right. As a teacher, right, with kids, I did not have a huge sum ready to rock and roll. I had to go three and a half percent down FHA. And even with that, I think I borrowed $4,000 for my inlaws just to close. So, right, it was every last penny that we had to get into the place. But I realized, even on the front end, this is how we save money every month after this. And so that's what we had to do to get into it, FHA.

And then to be honest, you look, you know, take those numbers again, 1,600 and 600. A year later, we refinanced out of the FHA and into a conventional product. We lowered our monthly payment to $1,100. And we bumped the rent up $100 to $700. And now I'm sitting at 1100 PITI and 700 coming in. We're living there for $400 a month. That's in the nicest department I've ever owned. That is one of my favorite parts of owning real estate is it's good when you buy it,

when you buy it correctly. And then it just gets better every single year. And your systems get better too. So it's less work every single year. Yeah. Exactly right. It's less work. It's more profitable.

And then you get better at finding better deals. So you start off better. And then those get even better as you. you go. The whole thing just works exponentially. And that's how a guy who claims that he's not that smart is able to retire at 35 years old with $120,000 because you learned how to kind of like manipulate this really powerful force in a good way. And you rode that wave all the way in. Absolutely. And I'll share with you really quickly. The third night we're living in that duplex, it was shared duct work. I had a younger guy downstairs. My infant daughter and wife and pregnant

wife or asleep and I start smelling, oh man, that pungent weed smell, right? And I'm like, this is bad. This is bad. I tell the guy, hey, look, do what you want with your life, but you just can't do it on my property. And the guy goes, all right, then I'm not, we were month to month. He goes, then I'm not going to renew the lease. And I freaked out because there goes my income, right? And I go to my wife. I'm like, what should I tell? Should I tell him it's fine to do it? And my wife, God bless my wife. Oh, I was like, no, screw him. We'll find a better tenant for more money. And sometimes you need a partner to like push you to be a little stronger and better in the midst of it. My wife is the exact same way.

She's always just like, you know, screw them. Let them leave. I don't care. We'll find a better one. And that's the great thing about being a landlord is like typically when you're a landlord, you have all the power. Like you have so much power. And this is one thing I drives me nuts about Airbnb.

Like I had an Airbnb unit for a while and then I got rid of it. And part of it was because it was extra work. But the other part is because I hated not having the power. The power of Airbnb is the reviews. They reviews control your entire. success forever with Airbnb. Do you view a bunch of negative reviews? And so I'm not saying I was a bad Airbnb guy, but I was so afraid all the time that

if I did anything that wasn't like hugging them and kissing them, then they would just leave me a bad review, which would destroy my income. But with rentals, it's like, no, you're smoking pot. You're out. Bye. Right. Right. Now that said, these are still your clients, right?

So one of my mindsets has been, this is my client. I'm serving them. This is a product that they're buying. And if I want them to renew or I want them not to trash. the place or I want them to tell me about repairs that need to be done, you still got to treat them real well. I'm not saying that you wouldn't or that you haven't, but I look at it as like, these people are paying me. I want to give them the best product I'm capable of giving them. Okay, so obviously there was a little shot of fear that went through you at that point.

Like, well, maybe I will let you smoke some hippie lettuce in my next door unit, you know? It's not going to do crazy here, right? And you were able to overcome that because you realize you need to take control of your own thing. Can you tell us a little bit about some things, learned or some techniques you use to overcome that fear that's a part of real estate investing, being a landlord, agreeing to make this mortgage payment for the next 30 years, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Well, some of that delves into like life philosophy, right? So you got to think about it like this. Because I was honestly, before that deal, I'm not kidding you, we talked to like everybody that we knew who was smarter than us. We like prayed for three, four days before we put in the offer.

We were like, is this the right decision? And, you know, we were freaking out about this decision because it was so huge to us. And it was a risk. And I don't want to mitigate the risks of real estate. They're there. You could have a furnace go out. We did. That place lost its furnace six months down the road.

You could have a lot of stuff happen. And all of that is risks. And those are risks that people use to freeze themselves and never get into investing in real estate. Okay? And that's where I was. I was looking at all the downside risk. But it's a balance scale. On the one side is the risk that, you know, all these bad things are going to happen.

They're real, okay? So give them some weights. But what's on the other side of that balance scale? It's this. I could be 85 years old, laying in my bed, looking at my ceiling, and kicking myself because I never freaking tried. That's a risk, too. You're foolish if you're not quantifying that risk, too. Right?

So I got to the point where I was like, okay, there's that risk of like having a furnace go out or whatever. And then there's this risk of just being stuck in a job that I didn't want to have and wasn't making enough money for me and my family for the rest of my life. How about that risk? You know, you're sitting on that risk too. So that really, that overcame my fear because one of my fears was not having enough money for my family and being stuck in a low paying job forever.

That's a fear too. And it's not talked about enough. Go ahead, Brandon. Well, yeah, I just love that, that, you know, the risk of not doing anything, in my opinion, is far greater than of doing something, especially with real estate, right? I mean, if you were to go risk all your money on Bitcoin, like, that's different, right? That is a very large risk. If you're going to risk it all, even on like a single stock or whatever.

But like real estate, I don't want to say you cannot lose. People lose all the time. Like you said, there are risks to it. But there's so many protections with real estate. Like if I buy a bad deal, like if I buy something, then for some reason, something didn't work out quite like I wanted and my cash flow wasn't quite what I wanted, it's probably going to be okay. It's probably still going to overtime, go up in value.

I'll probably still pay the loan off over time. I'm still going to get some good tax benefits from it. I'm probably okay as long as I'm a halfway decent manager of the property or of the systems that that's behind it. You know, like, again, the risk of not doing anything, I think is just far greater. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, if you're a farmer, right, you can't guarantee that planting a crop means you're going to get a yield at harvest time, right? There could be locust. There could be drought.

But you can guarantee that if you don't plant, you're not going to harvest anything. Yeah. That is a guarantee. I love that. Okay. So let's talk about the landlord. thing. A lot of people say, I don't want to get into real estate because, or I'm nervous, I'm scared because I don't want to be a landlord. Uncle Bob, Uncle James, you know, Aunt Sally,

they did rental properties and they lost their shirt or, you know, whatever, their wallet. Like, they had a horrible experience. They had a, they had a guy smoking weed in the basement, right? Everyone's got these stories of their uncle, whatever, who failed at real estate. And that's why I don't want to be a landlord because I don't want to fix toilets like Uncle Bob did. What do you say to those people? I say, you got to vacuum the truck. If you're listening to this podcast right now, get out your pen and paper. You got to vacuum the truck. Here's what I mean by that. Yeah, what does that mean? On my journey to financial independence as a landlord, I had bought a Toyota Tundra. Terrific truck, great, right? But I had a loan on it and it was killing me. The gas mileage

was killing me. Most of the time, it was a 5,000 pound vehicle carrying around a 200 pound man, not a very efficient equation. And I got to the point where I was like, I got to sell this thing, But I owed $10,000 on the loan. I did not have that much savings to pay this truck off. And it's killing me at like $300 a month in the payment. So I'm like, I don't know how to sell a truck that I have a loan on because the state holds the title to it. They're not going to release it until it's paid off.

And I for months, I'm like, well, I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to sell a truck that has a loan on it. And I let that keep me from taking any positive steps. All right. finally I get to the point where I'm like, you know what? I don't know how to sell a truck that has a loan on it, but I know how to vacuum my truck. And that's free. That's free.

So that day, I went out with my shop vac and I freaking vacuum the truck. And then the next day, I'm like, okay, I don't know how to sell a truck with a loan on it, but my wife knows how to take pictures and she's got a good eye. Still free, right? So she takes pictures. And I'm like, all right, I don't know how to sell a truck with a loan on it, but I know how to make a Craigslist ad. and that's still free.

So I make a Craigslist ad. People start calling me. And I'm like, I guess I can let them test drive my truck. Still free, right? Anything cost any money yet, guys? That's still free. And then I'm like, well, okay, people test drive. One guy wants to make an offer and I tell them, okay, I would need you to give me the money

first for me to pay off the title and then we could go to the notary once I get the title in hand. And he's like, I'm not going to do that, which you shouldn't do that. It would be stupid. Yeah. So what we do is this. He gives me $500 as a deposit. He's like, just see if you can free up 10 grand, man. Here's $500 to hold that truck and then figure it out. So I go and listen to this. I self-escro all of my taxes and insurance for my real estate properties. And I'll be honest, I also dipped into a couple of security deposits. This was mid-jury. And I pull out 10 grand. It wasn't savings. It wasn't even really my money. And I pay off the note with the 10. 10 grand. And then, you know, I get the title. We go to the notary. We do the deal. He gives me 10 grand. And then I put it right back. Okay. And now I'm out from under $300 a month in a truck loan because I vacuumed the truck. Okay, real estate, it's the same thing. People are, they're looking at step 5.

They're like, I don't know how to be a real estate investor. I don't know how to make these deals happen. Okay, great. But don't let that freeze you up from taking steps one through four. I didn't know how to be a real estate investor when I called that realtor that first time and asked her to show me multifamily properties. It was free to go see the cat piss cigarette place. That was free. And it was free to get the auto email with all the multifamilies, right? That was free. And guess what?

Here's the other thing. It was also free to make an offer on that place. Yep. Okay? Right here, I'm going to tell you this right now. You make an aggressive offer that is a free and a low, risk proposition. When they come back with a counteroffer, okay, and you got a count, like, let's say there's a place that's listed for $200,000. You offer $180. They come back and they say $192. What is the

general, what's the offering to the general public for that place? It's still $200,000, right? What's the offer to you? One, 992. Okay. And you're still risk free because you can turn down their counter offer when that's sitting on your desk. Okay, that's when you decide whether you, whether you want to be a real estate investor. When that counteroff is sitting on your, on your desk, then you start really thinking hard. Am I ready to go through with this? But don't cut yourself off before you get there. Do all the free steps first. Vacuum the freaking truck and then decide that you're ready to rock and roll when you got that counter offer back on your desk. Yeah, that's, that's incredible. You're, you're so right about that. And so many people would benefit if they would

stop looking at five steps down the road and start looking at one step in front of where they are. I don't have any money. I can't invest in real. I don't have any money. Right? That's what people say. I don't have any money. I don't have any. I don't have any, I can't find any deals. Or my wife just got pregnant with our second kid. Yeah. And we don't have any money and she's crying on the floor. Yeah. But you obviously went from crying on the floor to retired at age 35. So it worked out for you, right? Can you tell us a little bit about where you are now, like your overall portfolio. Yeah. So let me give you the in brief the next step, which was I figured out when we were living in that duplex and we're getting the margins better and better and better. And it was down to like

1,100 PITI and like 800 and eventually 900 in rent. I'm like, well, wait, I'm only paying $200 a month to live in this place. Then I started in the math. What can I rent out the part that we're living in for? Because that would be profit over and above whatever our PITI is. So long story short, I rented out the place we were living in for $1,400. And I'm making $900 on the bottom floor. That's $2,300 in and $1,100 out in PITI. Okay, that's when I started doing like the R&M math and realizing, oh, I have a common electric meter. I got a carry.

I got, you know, I have to pay a water bill and that kind of stuff. But really, it didn't make that much of a ding. I was clearing $1,000 a month on that place after we moved out of it. And that was the mortgage payment for our next place that we also lived in. It was kind of crazy that first time. The second time, it was even crazier. We bought a triplex. We moved into it while it was still being renovated.

And get this, guys, this is where you got to channel Vito Corleone from Godfather Part 2, and you got to do everything it takes. That second place that we bought, we lived in a smaller apartment. We had three daughters in a two-bedroom apartment. their bedroom looked like a Romanian orphanage with cribs all over the place. Okay. I am teaching. I got my real estate license.

So I'm a realtor. I'm a teacher. I'm a coach. I'm a landlord. And I'm coming home at night at 4.30 after school. We're getting the girls to bed at like 8 o'clock at night, you know, doing the dinner thing, then to bed. And then in this triplex, I'm going upstairs.

And I'm painting. I'm working on the other two units from eight until one in the morning. and then I'm going to sleep and getting up at six in the morning and starting the whole thing over again. And you better believe every single brush stroke, every single piece of trim that I'm putting in, I'm like, I am building my financial future. That was not easy. It was not easy at all. And my wife, I'm not going to lie to you.

We had a box of wine in the fridge and it went a lot quicker than it normally should. But like, we made it. And I told her, I'm like, honey, just give me this one more. you know, do this for a year and then we'll get whatever house you want. Okay. And that triplex, you know, once we got it outfitted, I made, I cleared $1,500 a month after financing from that triplex. So now we're going with $1,000 from the duplex and $1,500 from this triplex. And now I'm shopping for the home, right? Okay. So, Bryce, let me dig in on that. You're making $500 per door on these deals you're getting.

You're clearly getting deals that someone like me could never find, right? You've got some secret, secret source that's funding you deals. Maybe it's the black market. Maybe you're getting these from Russia. I don't know. Can you tell us where are you finding these incredible deals that are allowing you to just like make $500 a door? Yeah.

So I'll say this. One, neither of them or none of them made me $500 a door when I bought them. Okay. So in some ways, the decision to buy them was only one decision. The decision of what to do after I bought them, and there's a lot of subsequent decisions. That's the whole thing like being a real estate investor. Okay, part of it's, yeah, buying a property. But then you have a whole lot of other decisions that your success hinges on after that.

So for me, this might have been stupid. We spared no expense. I mean, the places are still. We opened them up. We put in granite countertops, ceramic tile floors. We redid the hard wood. We exposed the brick. I mean, they're gorgeous.

they're still nicer than my house. Okay. But the thing is, we were living in it with a mortgage that was a primary, like an owner occupant primary residence mortgage. Because we're in that segment of two to four unit, all the money that I borrowed, you know, we refied that duplex and took a little bit of money out of it. But I'm getting that money as cheap as you can borrow money because it came as a primary residence mortgage, okay?

After our FHA, we found a local bank that was willing to do 90s. 90% loan to value. And they already, you know, because of the upgrades and everything, they already assumed more than the 10% that we needed when we're walking out of it. So for free, we went from an FHA loan to a 90% loan to value and a little bit of cash, which is part of how I started renovating the next place. And then while we're living in that triplex and we've got, you know, I spent every last dime making the place is nice. We refi again, get the higher value. And again, it's on owner occupant financing. I still have those same two owner occupant mortgages on those places because they were 30-year

amortizations. They were both at like three and a quarter percent interest rate. And, you know, I'm laughing all the way to the bank because they cash flow like kings. So what you're saying is you're not, you don't like the same thing me and David say all the time. Like you don't find good deals. You make good deals, right? Like you didn't just happen to stumble across like, this is an incredible deal. How did nobody else find this?

Like you're like, you found. So how did you find it then? So the triplex that I bought, the second one, was right next door to the duplex. Honestly, it directly abutted it. And the landlord had section eight tenants there, which, you know, I guess I can't knock it. Some people need it, whatever, they got to take it. But these were like section eight and county mental health outpatient leases. So literally, we're living next to like insane people.

So part of it is I bought it out of self-defense. I wanted to defend the investment I'd already made on this duplex. So I worked on that landlord for like a year and a half. I'm like, sell me your place, sell me your place, sell me your place. And this was my one and only pocket deal. I go to the guy. You know, I've been talking. He'd been talking, throwing out crazy numbers.

He was coming in high. He's saying like, 2.30, which for my area, I was like, that's going to be hard to make money on 2.30. Finally, I learn how to do an agreement of sale. I'm like, I'm just going to, I'm going to walk an agreement of sale to this guy and put it in his hands. So he's not just shooting wind, you know? And that's what I did.

it for 195, I'd take it to his desk. I'm like, I don't think it'll appraise for higher than this. I was lying. I guess he wanted his 195. So, you know, he agreed to 195. We did it and we got in for cheap, you know, and then again, we bought with owner occupant financing to get in on that 195. So two years later, we refinance, you know, at a higher value. And I've got walking money for my next deal that again is common as cheap as you can possibly get it. That's awesome. So how many total units do you have now? I've got 23 units.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Do you have 23 units and you're retired at 35? Don't you have to have hundreds of units and be investing for like 20 years to be able to retire? You have to have lots of units, right? Yeah, no. In fact, I got to be honest, I listen to your guys podcast and I hear interviewing landlords and they're saying stuff like, yeah, this deal is clearing me $200 a month, $300 a month. And I'm like, that would not even get me out of bed.

I'm not going to go see a place unless it can reasonably be over $1,000. This is after financing for me every month. So when that's your metric of evaluation, and I'm not buying it like that, okay, like you said, I'm adding value, I'm figuring out. It might mean dividing the heat when I buy it to get rid of that cost. it might mean, you know, pain. It might mean knocking out a wall and doing like a big reno. But I want the end game to be this property is going to give me at least $1,000 a month.

So I say that 23 doors, one of those 23 doors is that condo that was losing me money. So let's say it's 22 doors that's getting me, you know, 10 grand a month passive income. And then you just got to, when you get into it, you go for R.O.I. Right? You as the owner of the property, you know what the potential RLI for the property is better than anybody else. Can you explain ROI for those who don't know? Yeah, that's acronym for return on investment, return on investment, return on investment, return on investment. You know, I buy a place, a three unit, okay, and it's, this is one of my deals. This is one of the deals we didn't move

into, but I buy it and it's shared oil radiator heat, okay, which means every landlord knows this, the middle of December, the tenants have their windows wide open and you're paying to heat their stupidity. Right? So the best time to do it is right when you buy the place, you come in, you look at it and you tell the tenants, hey,

new ownership, the first thing that's happening is, and this is how you say it, this is exactly how you say it. You say, everybody's going to use the amount of heat that makes them comfortable and pay for what they use.

That's fair. No one can argue with that. Yeah. Right? So, you know, people are like, oh, landlord's making me pay for my own heat. Well, then don't use as much heat.

Okay, now I'm not a jerk. I also replaced the windows. So they got double-paying windows, you know. They're happy with that. They can control it. And that's between them and the power company, not me. But let me give you an example here of this is better than any real estate deal I've ever made. I buy a place.

I cut out all the radiators because the cost was like $3,000 per year on heat. And then I put in baseball electric heaters, okay, at a cost of $5,000 total. So I spend $5,000 total and it cuts my. landlord costs by $3,000 total every year. That's a return on investment of $3,000 every year for a $5,000 investment. That's 60% return on investment. Let me ask you guys, have you ever found a real estate deal that's giving you a 60% return on investment? Now, I haven't. So, you know, you could grab a bunch of properties really quick. I'm sure you could, but it makes more sense to take the properties that you already have and find those areas of hidden ROI and exploit them because a lot of times

there'll be a better return on your money than going out and get another property. And you still only have to deal with the same number of tenants. You know, you go out and get another property. You got a new set of weed smokers trying to do damage to your property, whereas you could keep three tenants and still, you know, get good return on your money. So you got to max that out and then move to the next deal. I love that. I don't think people think enough about that. Like hidden ROI. I've never even heard that phrase, but I'm going to start using that now. Like, instead of going on and buy another property, how can you maximize the one you have and you could probably get an even better return? Without increasing your monthly effort at all. Yeah. Because it's the same rental.

That's really good. That's really good. And everybody should be looking at ways that they can do the same thing. Brandon often talks about when I see a two-bedroom house that's got 1,200 square feet, I know there's a hidden bedroom somewhere in there. And he knows if he can find that extra bedroom and make it into an official bedroom, his rent might go up by 15 to 30 percent. Boom, your ROI just increased incredible for the price of putting up some drywall and maybe building a closet. So that's a really good tip, Bryce.

I really like that. Can you tell us as far as what you're buying? Are you only buying small multifamily properties right now? Yes. At least I have been. I'd be willing to move into the next segment. That's kind of this next journey. I've gotten to the point where I'm financially free and I don't have to be.

to worry about my job every day. So that gives me time to network with the kind of people, the Grant Cardones of the world who can tell me, hey, dude, here's how you go from a four unit in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania to a 300 unit wherever in Cleveland. Everybody's in Cleveland, right? In Cincinnati. In Cincinnati, yeah. So that's what I've bought. But let me tell you, one of the reasons I've been so successful is I live in an area that is growing. I live in a in the third largest metro area in the state of Pennsylvania. Where are you? We're in the Lehigh Valley, which is an hour north of Philly and an hour and change west of New York

City. That's a key area. That's where Grant Cardone would, I think, call a tertiary area or like a third area where you're part of a larger metropolitan statistical area, but the values aren't bloated yet for, you know, the kind of prices that are going in northern Jersey or New York City. So I've kept my sites like hyper, hyper local. All 23 of my doors are within a two mile radius of my house. And this is also important too.

They're also all within one mile of either Lowe's or Home Depot. I'm not buying condos in Corpus Christi from Pennsylvania. And I'm not because there's so many different pieces that come in when you're not there, when you can't drive by the place, when you can't go when there's a problem, when you're starting out and you're the property manager, it saves you money. It saves you time to have stuff that's local. So for me, and this is key too.

If you're in an area like that that it's worth investing in, for me, a good deal in Bethlehem is better than a great deal in Pittsburgh or even a great deal in Philadelphia. Because a good deal for me, local is one that I can control and I can start maxing out that ROI. So I look hyperlocal and it makes the management that much easier. Yeah, one thing I've noticed is that you know what you want. You know what works for your system and you're looking for properties that fit a model that you've already developed, right? And that probably takes a lot of the anxiety out of, I don't know, should I buy it or shouldn't I? It's a very simple question for you because you're looking for, I've got a round hole. Is this a round peg? Will it fit in my hole? You're not trying to to force a square peg into a round hole. For the people who are listening that are like, hey, I know where I want to invest. I know what I'm comfortable with. I'm ready to do this. But I can't find it.

deal. Are you finding these deals like through direct mail? Do you have a super secret wholesaler that's feeding you? Or is this stuff that you're actually just buying off the MLS because you know your stuff? Yeah, no, I've never done any of that late night infomercial stuff, not to paint it all with the same brush, but I was always kind of, I was afraid of that. Honestly, I didn't want to put that much more labor on my plate. You know, sorting deals is labor. I'm just perpetually on the local auto email for multi-families within the zip codes that I've given to my agent. And even though I'm a real estate agent, I have an agent that works for me too. And you better believe when I'm the guy who I call her up, I've done deals before.

Listen, I did a deal two years ago where I called her up. I was like, write the offer and send it in and then let's go see the property. Because I had already adopted that mentality of don't get frozen, take step five. And I knew, you know, I can always get out of this deal. even if we get an agreement of sale, right? They take my offer. Whatever. I don't like the furnace and the inspection.

I walk away. I find termite tubes. I walk away, even if they're dead. I don't like the radon numbers. I walk away. You can do all that stuff after you have the agreement of sale. What you can't do is get an agreement of sale that's already between them and another buyer. You can't undo that, right?

So get the AOS, get the AOS. It's free. I guarantee it's free. Okay, that's a free step and then decide, am I going to follow through with this deal? That took me a couple of deals to figure out where I was like, oh, wait, yeah, the important thing is to make sure I'm the one who can play this deal. Before you have the agreement of sale, the seller has the upper ground because they can go to any buyer. After you have that agreement of sale, you have the upper ground because they're committed to you as a buyer and then you can take your sweet time

deciding, do I want to keep this? Do I want to get rid of it? You know, am I going to lose my earnest money or I'm going to find an easy contingency out of this, that's always there to you. Yeah, I wrote a blog article for Bigger Pockets about how I analyzed and bought a deal in five minutes. And we were at a real estate conference and we were learning how you find off market deals. And this couple that was there said went and left and got on a phone call and the wife came back crying. And she said, the funding I had for this deal just fell out. I was just about to close on it. This was such a good deal.

And she's like heartbroken. And I was like, well, tell me about it. And she said, I think the ARV was like, 145. and they had it under contract for 100 and it needed like maybe $1,100 of work. It was a really, really good deal. And I said, is this a property? You would have bought? Oh, yeah, we were going to buy it.

I said, okay, I'll buy it. And she looked to be like, how do you know? And I said, well, when you were talking, I looked up the pictures on Zillow and I confirmed that the ARV was close to what she said. And I looked up the rent on rentometer and it was past the 1% rule. And that pictures of the house look like they're in really good shape. Let's put me under contract. I'll give you a $7,000 assignment fee just for giving it to me.

Now, they were buying it from a wholesale. So there was already an assignment for you attached this. Oh, my gosh. It was so good, right? And I had no worries. And everyone at the conference was like, you're crazy. You're an idiot. What are you doing?

You haven't gone to see the house. You haven't called anyone to talk to them. I said, I know all that comes later. I've got inspection contingencies. I've got a period of time that I can look at all this stuff. And if I don't like it, then I can back out at that point. If any information someone gave me doesn't check out, I can back out at that point. Why am I going to let some other buyer jump in?

Because I'm frozen and scared and I can't move. on the deal. Put it under contract and then you start your stuff. And I, when you're new at investing in real estate, you tend to think I got to have every single duck lined up. Every domino has to be in place and I'll push the first one and then all just put it in one big thing go down. And the end result will be a closed sale. But that's not the case. You don't need to know it all in the very beginning. You need to know the basics. And that's how investing kind of works. You start up with this really blurry picture. And if you like it, you dig in deeper and you look closer. And if you keep liking it, you keep in digging. And if you get to the point that it focused enough that you didn't like something

then you saw, well, then you back out. And as long as you do that within the time period, you have to do it, it's not a problem. And this comes down to your vacuum the truck thing. Yeah, vacuum the truck. That's what you did. You vacuum the truck. You knew step one and you didn't know step five, so you took step one. You got to do that. And step five becomes a lot more clear after you hit step four and three and two, right? You only got to take one step. You don't have to run to the whole thing. Can you tell us very quickly here, Bryce, how are you funding these deals? Because you You know how to find them. You know how to analyze them. How are you funding it? So I told you the first five doors, the first six doors that we had we did through owner occupant financing.

The next deal that we did after that, I convinced my father-in-law and my father to take out home equity lines of credit on their personal residences. Again, cheapest money you can borrow. And, you know, they gave me the money. All right. I had already kind of had proof of concept with my first couple of deals. So it wasn't like they were taking out a loan in their house for me to go bet it all on black or to go invest in Bitcoin. Right. And remember I told you I borrowed $4,000 from my father-in-law on that first duplex. We paid him back in like four and a half or five months. I mean, we ate macaroni and hamburger helper so that we can save the money to pay him back.

And you know what? Even with family, that counts because when I went back to him and said, I need, you know, $20,000, $30,000, he knows Bryce is good for the money and he's going to pay me back. So I use family route because that was cheapest and because I was asking people to bet on me. And so my very next deal, my very next deal was one that I found and I was like, holy crap, I can't believe nobody else has taken this. And here's, this is a good lesson. This is why you go see stuff. It was a four unit that was owned by a school, okay?

So a quad owned by a school that they let students stay in gratis free, no rent, okay, if they were taking a crash course in this master's level school. So the listing agent makes the listing for this place. What do you think she puts down as rents for this place online? Zero. She puts zero, right? And everybody, including me, you look at it and you're like, oh, it's a dump, it's a dive, you know, whatever.

There's something wrong with it. It's a shell. So I think I was the first person with half a brain to walk through the place and to be like, wait, what are they asking for this? And it was in the middle of a blizzard, all right? I'm there with my agent in the middle of the blizzard. I call my father-in-law and I'm like, hey, can you come see this place? And also, can you take out a home equity line of credit? He comes, he looks at it.

He's like, you're right, this is a good deal. We line it up. I make an all-cash offer because I was getting the money from my, you know, they both had lines of credit. just maxed them out for me, gave me the cash. And then they agreed. And here's that agreement of sale thing. I get the agreement of sale. I'm not kidding you, within an hour and a half of getting the agreement of sale, there are two agents with their clients on the front porch trying to see this place because they realized what I, and they all wanted it. And I'm like, hey, I got assigned agreement of sale. Tough luck, guys. Okay. And then I figured out the rest of. So, and I was a quad. I got it for

165 in cash. Wow. Like four months later, we'd take an appraiser through 270. And cash flowing, right? And that was the deal that for me, you know, I maxed out my loan on that 270. That was my first commercial paper deal. And then that was my seed capital for my next purchase. And that's when I had the 20% down, 30% down, was able to start doing that.

Because I had learned how to recognize value. I had learned how to vacuum the freaking truck and move forward with stuff and then it snowballed. I knew what I was doing. I knew where I was looking. I knew how much I should be paying and I knew what I could get in rent to get that, you know, above $1,000 profit every month on the places. I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that creativity too that, you know, you didn't sit there and go, well, I don't have any money. So I'm going to go back to watching my TV. I got to watch my stories. Like you were like, I just kept asking question, well, how do I do this? Well, I got, you know, family that might have

equity in their house, right? I love that. That thinking, how do I afford it? Not can I afford it. It makes a difference. Yeah. Let me stop you right there because people. are going to say, well, my parents don't have that. Yep, they will. You have a silver spoon in your mouth. All right, so go find hard money. Get a hard money lender. The deals that I had would have still made sense, even with hard money, especially if I

could refinance them out in three months, six months or whatever. You just got to find the deal where a hard money lender is going to be like, yeah, I'll give you the down payment, man. Yeah. Brandon and I, we do webinars for bigger pockets and we talk a lot about, like, they're usually geared towards people that are getting started. And everybody's concern is how do I get this first deal? It's so much work to find that deal, right?

But what you just described is you worked hard to get a deal. You had a ton of equity in it. And that first deal bought you your second deal. And that second deal, if you buy it, right, it's probably going to buy your third deal, right? Like, you only have to put that insane effort in in the very beginning. And then it gets easier as you get better and your equity grows and your options grow. And like Brandon was saying, these creative options start to become apparent.

And you're not going to be working that hard all the time. And I tell people, if every workout that you did in the gym was like the first one when you haven't gone in six months, you would never work out. That's just excruciating, right? But that's not how it is. They progressively get easier until it doesn't even really burn anymore. You just get tired and you're done. If it did burn, you would quit going. You can only do it for so long. And that's what it's like when you first start investing is it's going to be a lot of work. It's going to be new. It's going to be scary. There's going to be negative emotions. You're going to make a mistake like you did on your first condo. You're going to work really hard to get a deal. But if you get a good deal, that deal is going to get to

your next one, which will get your next one. And then you get to the point real estate investing is a ton of fun and deals are finding you and you've got a network of people and all the stuff that you're worried about in the beginning, it's not there. So think of it like something else in life you did that was really hard. That first job you had that just sucked and you weren't good at it and you hated going to work every day and by a couple months into it, it was great. And keep that in mind because the stakes like you said earlier, Bryce, are so big if you don't do this. Right. And I want to say this too, because I know there's people listening to this that they're arguing. They're in their head. They're arguing with it. They're like, well, I don't even have a good deal. Okay, great. That's the same as me saying,

I don't know how to sell a truck with a loan on it. Vacuum your truck. Right now, if you're listening to this, write it down. Look online for that local realtor who can take you to a multi-unit. That's free, free, free, take that step. You got to vacuum the truck. And even you guys, at your stage in the game, the two of you guys, you've got stuff right now that you didn't move forward on or you haven't move forward on yet, that you just need to do those next couple free steps and figure it out. I don't know if it's calling Grant Cardone back up and being like, hey, can you tell me how to do that thing you said on the podcast or whatever? Like, that's free. And he already knows you. So he's going to take the call. People, you know, they're going to try to get out of what you're saying. They're going to try to say, well, I don't even have a good deal lined up. So nobody's going to trust me. Okay, fine. Start looking at deals. You won't know a good one until you've looked at a critical mass of them. Yeah, I can share for my own life that I've always bought every deal I've ever bought with my own money. I work really hard to save money and then I go invest it. And I wonder if I'm,

I'm not going to look back and say, why didn't you raise money when interest rates were super low and there was tons of money to raise? And you could have had four or five times as many houses because I didn't want to step out of that zone of comfortability. You know, like I'm giving up a lot by being stubborn and doing it this way rather than going and learning something new. Can you tell me, Bryce, now that you've got financial freedom, what's next for you? What's in your future? What are some ideas you have and where you like to see yourself go? So here's where I'm going to pull a page out of Mr. Money Mustash. If you haven't looked at that blog, that guy has a profit. He's terrific.

One thing that he says that's just, this is gospel truth. And that's this. There's a diminishing marginal utility to money. Okay. After you have a certain amount that you need, getting more only helps you out, you know, a diminishing amount. Once you're fed, once your kids' college is funded and everything like that, you can make yourself really busy chasing deals your whole life. but the key to getting exactly what you need is that you can begin to scale out, right? You can scale up with more work, but you can also begin to scale up your passivity. That's my next goal. For me, honestly, I don't know how it would spend any more than a buck 20 every year

from what I'm making. But what I want to do is I want to start moving myself out of the day-to-day management, figuring out how to give myself. Because at this point, I have four daughters. We had four kids in five years. They're young. They love me. They love being on my lap.

I love spending time with them. I volunteer 20 hours a week for a nonprofit locally here. I love doing that stuff. And there's some of that stuff too that you get to age 85 and you're like, I miss some opportunities there to have really done good. So for me, that's the next step. I need to figure out either how to take those 23 doors and get them all under one roof by 1031ing into a larger property or figure out maybe a little bit more scalable system of

management where every new property doesn't increase my workload. Here's a great example. I have one unit that's a law firm. Okay. It's in a small office. They use it three hours per month. They don't even really go there. They just use it for appointments. Okay. And they're paying me a really small rent. They're paying me $6.75 per month for this little office. I can make more on the square footage if it was a one bedroom apartment. Okay. And at first I was kind of bummed. I'm like, they're not paying me very much for that space. But when I look at it, they're paying me more than any of my other tenants on the basis of how many hours of labor they require out of me month to month. So in one sense, that little law office that's only used throughout it's paying me way more than any of my other places because

they never flush the freaking toilet. They're never there. They're not using electric. They aren't complaining. They aren't doing stuff. And they're still paying me red every month. You got to look at your investing career in that way too, not just return on investment of money, but return on investment of time. How do I maximize my time? Because ultimately, nobody got into this so they could stare at a computer or fix a toilet all day. The fun part of real estate investing is that you get, you get your life back. You know, you get to do what you want to do. You can go to the gym. You can play golf. You can take the girls out. That's the real aim. That's so true. You know, a couple of things I want to bring up there and then we'll move on. We've got the fire around coming up here.

But like every investor has like these phases. And I've talked about this before on the show, right? The initial phase is get out like for most people. And I mean, maybe not most, but for me and for you, it was get out of my day job. Like that was that was phase number one. I think David, you're the same way. Like whatever you got to do to get out of your job, I'm going to do that, which means if it means painting until one in the morning like you did there, like I've had so many one in the morning, two in the morning days painting, right? If it means managing my I will manage myself. If it means like hustling, however I have to borrow hard money, friends, family, it doesn't matter. I had to get out of a job. But once you achieve financial freedom,

it's like that game, uh, uh, Robert Kiyosaki's cash flow game, cashful game, right? Like once you get out of the rat race, now you have like the mental freedom, the financial freedom, the physical freedom to explore the next phase. And so then that phase comes and then you can figure out, okay, well, what really matters? What's the next thing? And yeah, that that first part kind of sucks. you know, but like, if you have a strong enough vision, like it'll pull you towards that, you know, like you'll say, you know, it's going to, it's going to be hard. I got to work hard. They got to, you know, struggle through this. In fact, there was a, I'm going to read a quote because it was on my side the other. Steve Jobs said, if you are working on something that you

really care about, you don't have to be pushed. The vision pulls you. Right. It's like this, like, I had this vision of financial freedom. Anyway, that's phase one, phase two, and now you're entering that one right now and you're figuring out, well, what comes next? Anyway, so again, And my point is to people listening right now. You might be in phase one right now and it might be hard. But like it's not going to be like that forever. That's just phase one. Right.

Right. And I'll say this too. That poll becomes stronger when you write it down. I told you that I was a moron, right? I told you I was an idiot at the beginning. I was that guy who never wanted to take notes in class, never wanted to journal or write anything. When I started this real estate, the first time in my life, I committed to writing down my goals and I wrote them down daily.

I was pissed off enough with my job that I was like, I wrote down daily, I will not sit for 35 years of this crap. I will work myself out of this job. I'll figure it out. I don't care if it kills me, but I'm going to work myself out of this. That doesn't sound like a business tip, but when you're the person doing the business and your emotions are what is controlling it, that is a business tip. Write down somewhere every day, here's what I want. and then figure out every day how to push the football a little farther down the field. I love that.

I love it. Yeah, people like writing down goals, like reviewing them daily. I mean, that's why I do a journal every single morning and I write down my goals of what I want to do and how I'm going to get there and identify the next step. Because like when you keep that top of mind, otherwise you might go two, three, four, eight, ten weeks, whatever, without ever thinking about, wait, what was my goal again? Oh, that's right. Oh, I haven't done anything towards that.

I haven't vacuumed the truck in forever, right? But if you identify, this is what I want. This is the next step. I'm going to go do it right now. Yeah, and people are going to argue. They're going to say, I don't know the next step. All right, fine. Find somebody who does.

Vacuum that truck, man. Yep, there you go. I love it. All right, well, we got to get out of here and move on to the next segment of our show, which we lovingly refer to as our fire round. It's time for the fire round. All right, let's get to the fire round. These questions come direct out of the Bigger Pockets forums where real life BiggerPockets members

are asking these questions. So we're going to ask you them. Bryce, you can help them. a little bit. Number one, would you decrease your monthly rent in order to keep a good tenant? Somebody wants to move. They're threatening to move if you don't lower the rent, but you like them as a tenant. Not in my market. I have a plethora of good tenants. I'll find the next one for more rent. All right. Number two. All right. I am having a hard time finding a qualified tenant. The rental has been on the market for

15 days and after 48 leads, no one is qualified. The problem is that they don't have a 600 plus credit score. What should I do? If you're basing it solely on the credit score, you're not being smart. You want to look at what's competing for rent every month. There's plenty of kids who come out of college with a good degree and maybe even a good job, but they have what you would call shallow credit, meaning they've never borrowed a lot of money so they don't have a very high score. to me, that's actually a smart kid, right? Someone who hasn't taken out a lot of credit card debt or anything like that. And they just get a bad score from a, you know, from a calculus on a computer.

You got to look at what they're carrying. Did they buy, did they just buy a new Beamer? And they have a bad credit score? Yeah, get rid of them. But if they're smart, keep them. I love that tip. That's fantastic. This one's a little bit of a longer question, but I wonder, it's a situation.

So a potential partner identified an off-market opportunity he wants to partner on. It's a duplex. and it's currently owned free and clear. So the guy who owns it does not have a mortgage. The owner lives in it currently and he wants to move out. And I think it's worth between 105 and 120. So we've got a duplex. Did you say duplex or a house?

I can't remember. Yeah, it was duplex. Okay, it's a duplex between 105 and 120 owned free and clear. He wants $75,000 in his pocket. The guy who's selling it won $75,000 in his pocket. He's planning to list it, but he's willing to deal with us since the partner is a friend of his. It can rent for, it looks like right around $1,500 a month total. it's like one and a half percent rule.

And it looks like it needs about 10K in rehab. How can I structure this deal? And what can I do for since I don't have a lot of money to put this together? Any suggestions for him? Well, the first thing is you want to get that contract, right? So yeah, maybe you have to tweak the financing or anything like that. But like one, there's there's millions of guys out there who are saying the same thing to their buddy about wanting to move.

That's not a deal. That's not a deal. That's hearsay. that's, you know, water cooler talk, that's not a deal. A deal is when you have an agreement of sale, okay, because then you find out what he's actually willing to part with it for, and then you can start shopping it around to banks. You know, you maybe you leave the financing contingency kind of wide open or leave a few options for yourself, but then you go to a bank. And then if you're, you know, if the two of you need money from somewhere else, you've got something that you can go

to somebody and say, we have this under contract. We're looking for the money. But otherwise, you're just, you're wasting everybody's time, including that guy who's saying he wants to sell his house, make him stop wasting his own time and tell him this is the quickest route to $75,000. Yeah. And see if he's serious. You know, I just stood out to me in this that. I think I would do it. I think one of the tricks I like to do a lot when I'm doing real estate, I like to give

sellers two offers because it makes them debate between the two offers you're giving them rather than yes or no. They're like, well, which one's better, right? So in this case, the guy said he needs 75 grand in his pocket that's what he wanted, right? So I'd probably say, okay, but it's worth 105. I'd probably say, okay, hey, buddy, either, you know, will you carry a option number one? Will you carry a contract for, I don't know, 30 grand, right? I'll come up with a bank to give me the 75 needed.

So I'm going to buy it for 105, for example. Or will you carry the entire contract for a year and then I'll refinance it out later? And I'll pay you 110. Like, I might give them a couple options there, but that's just one suggestion that, you know, stood out to me. David, anything you want to add or price? I want to say that it sounds like. you've created a new concept of the Jedi mind trick when it comes to real estate investing.

Brandon, the Jedi Turner has just, that's really, really smart because what you're doing is rather than insulting them with the lower offer where their only response that they can take with their irritation is to come back at you with like anger and pain, now you're giving them two offers and they get to decide in their mind which one of them makes sense for them when originally, probably neither of those offers would have made sense if you'd made one individually. That is really, really smart because in the end result, the seller needs to be. to get rid of that house. That's why they're trying to sell it. And if it was in really good shape or if it was really good property, someone would have already bought it. We're looking for homes that have

usually been on the market for a while. So they need to get rid of it. They just can't bring themselves to accept the fact that they're not going to get what they think that they deserve. You're presenting this in a way that doesn't let them think, oh, I'm getting ripped off. It's, ooh, I have options. I have some control. You're giving them this illusion of control that they really, really want, much like Master Yoda would have done with you. Let me jump in on that really quick too. And this is a key lesson for your investors out there. When you're thinking of purchase price, let's say you're at a highest and best point, right? You get into somewhere where you've got a property that you know is a high value,

but somebody else knows that it is too. And you're looking at a loan that's amortized in my case over 30 years. That first duplex that we bought, we offered 102% of list price. We knew there were multiple offers. And I was like, there's no way I'm going to lose this best deal for $2,000 amortized over 30 years. It's not when I can make that bad. You know, that's peanuts every month that with a coat of paint, you can make back up and rent.

Don't lose a deal for, you know, a couple grand because then you got to start looking again. It might be six months before something like that comes, else comes up, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I just want to shout from the rooftop sometimes. The list price does not matter. Quit thinking that if you get it below list, you got a deal. And if you paid over lists, you pay too much. You run your numbers.

You look at your ROI. You look at your options. you look at your equity, you look at your cash flow. You do not look at the list price. That doesn't matter at all. And if people can get over that hurdle in their head of, oh, I got ripped off because I paid over a list, oh, there's so many more deals that would be out there.

Like you were smart enough to recognize this is a great deal. Who cares what they're asking for? I need to be the top offer. I love, love, love you said that. Can you tell me, Bryce, I know you manage your own properties. Where do you list them for rent? So I got to be honest with you, I live in a hot market. It's terrific.

Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. is 75,000 people. It is the Darling Sister City in the third largest metro area in the state. So all the uppies, all the professionals, everybody who wants to live in a downtown that's safe, fun,

active, where they can walk to the restaurants and outdoor shopping. They all want to live in Bethlehem. So literally, all I got to do is put my places on Zillow or Trulia or Hotpads and maybe Craigslist. And I got people jumping down my throat ready to rent from me. I know that's not the

same thing for every market, but those are free, right? And that's an easy thing to start with. And I have never had to go outside of those channels, at least not yet, outside of those channels. So would you say it's fair to say that it's more important, the condition and the price of your property than it is like this secret where you can put it out as a rental and get a great renter right away? Well, maybe. The other thing that's important is good pictures, right? People don't go to see something that doesn't have good pictures. I don't care what your property looks like. It has to, it's what looks like on the internet first. Okay.

And then when they come and see it, there's that wow factor when they walk in the door. All my places, honestly, they look like the set of friends or Seinfeld. Okay. And people walk into it. And, you know, I have like exposed brick. I've got granite countertops. It's open concept. They walk in.

And it's unique. It pops. And it's in a great downtown. They're like, what do I got to do to rent this from you before the next person walks in. And that's when I'm like, oh, maybe my price should be higher. I love it. That's actually one more benefit of making your property is just, you know, like really, like the main benefit, making them really, really nice, like putting in a little bit more work. Doesn't usually take that much more money, but a little more thought into how you're developing your properties is you can usually get a lot

higher rent and you can be a little more pickier with your tenants and you get higher quality tenants. So all good stuff there. Right. You marry a smart woman like my wife and they can tell you what looks nice and what a kitchen should look like too. Yeah. There you go. All right, well, we've got to get on to the world famous, famous, but before we do, let's hear from Mindy Jensen on what is going on this week over on the Bigger Pockets Money podcast. Hi, Brandon, hi, David. On Monday's episode of the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, we talked to the mad scientist about three ways to access your retirement funds early. A little preparation can have you paying little to no taxes on your early withdrawals,

and there are even penalty-free ways to pull money out before age 59 and a half. The mad scientist breaks it all down so it's easy to understand. Plus, he sports a way better beard than you, Brandon. Okay, now for the famous four. All right, and definitely check that podcast out. And if you guys are enjoying the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, do me a favor and let Mindy know.

Let's make Mindy feel awesome. Go over to Twitter. Her Twitter is at Mindy at BP, so it's at sign and then Mindy, A-T-B-P. And let her know that you're loving the show. That'll just make her feel good, her and Scott Trench. And yeah, definitely check out the podcast.

it's awesome. And actually, David Green here, David, you were on the Bigger Pockets Money podcast the other day. And I've had numerous people say, not only is it the best podcast of the Bigger Pockets, like Bigger Pockets Money Podcasts I've ever heard. People said it's the best podcast period episode they've ever heard ever. So I listen to the episode of the BP Money podcast that David Green here was on. He was the guest on there a few weeks back. Good job, David. Apparently it was really good. I haven't listened to it. I only listened to the first like 10 minutes because, you know, you're so boring. I'm totally kidding. But I listen to the first few minutes. when we were, you know, quitting it together.

But apparently it's amazing. Can you guys all tell how surprised Brandon is that I did a good podcast? He's like, against all common knowledge. All right. Okay. Moving on. We got the world famous. All right.

Bryce, what is your favorite real estate book? It's got to be rich dad, poor dad. I know it doesn't give you all the granular answers, but you got to start with the 30,000 foot view of what you can do. And for me, you know, like I told you, that was the first seed that was planted. And that made me realize what was possible so that when things got tough, I started looking for real estate as the answer. Perfect. I love it. Number two, what about business books, business related books? Any current favorites? Yeah, this is going to sound crazy again. But honestly, think and grow rich by Napoleon Hill. That's a mindset book. But listen, businesses are run by people.

mindsets. And so the first way to tweak a business is to tweak a mindset. That book for me was so pivotal. I can't even describe it. One, it erased my cynicism about my own prospects, about investing in real estate. It gave me actionable steps. That's when I started writing stuff down too, because the book's like, you got to write this down to make it real. And it showed me how to have that goal. For me, my goal was 10 grand a month in passive income. When I first made that goal, it seemed insane. insane. That's laughable. Who has $10,000 a month in passive income? But through this book, I wrote it down. It changed how I looked at my goals, not just financial, but any goal that you want to get. So businesses are made of people. People need to have goals. And it requires the right

mindset. Especially if you're a business owner, man, read that book, mark the pages, you know, highlight it. It's terrific. Love it. Love that book too. That's very good. All right. So you've got four daughters and you paint houses and put in trim. When you're not doing that, what are some of your hobbies? So I love playing Frisbee. I love golf. I'm terrible at golf. One of my goals this year is to play a little bit more golf. I play guitar. I'm involved in a local nonprofit called Young Life, which is just terrific. I love Young Life. Yeah, Young Life's awesome. And gosh, what else? I sing. My family, like we sing. all the time. We make up songs in our house and we sing. It's weird and crazy, but you got to do that when you have four girls. That's awesome. All right. My last question of the day. What do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from all those who give up, fail, or never get

started? I'm going to tell you right now, there is one thing. It's not just real estate investors, but there's one thing that separates successful people from unsuccessful people. And it's this, clear goals, clear goals, clear goals, clear goals. You got to have that out there. You got to have that goal so that steps, you know, one through five makes sense even starting to take. And for me, I had wishy-washy goals before I got into real estate investing. There was nothing out there as like, here's what I'm aiming at. But man, you paint that target and now all of a sudden, you know why you're loading your gun, you know how you're going to hold it, you know what you're shooting at and you know when you're missing and you know when you're hitting. But unless you've got

that goal that every day you can hold up your schedule and be like, okay, am I moving this football forward? You have no way to mark your progress. So that's clear goals is the way that a guy with no marketable skills, no business training, could barely hang a picture, had two kids and was looking at her like the only way I could have succeeded was to have clear goals of this is what I want. and until you do that, you're just kind of, you're meandering. That is really good. Very good. Bryce, where can people find out more about you?

So there's a couple places. In fact, to get onto the bigger pockets podcast, this is so crazy. When Mindy contacted me and said, give me your bio, your quick bio, I thought, well, I bet everybody just emails back like a couple paragraphs. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to make a YouTube video of my real estate investing career. So right now, if you go to YouTube, don't search it from Google. If you go to YouTube and in the YouTube search bar, you type in from broke to retired in 15 years.

I made like a little emoji kind of financial biography that shows with rounded numbers and it's overly simplistic, but how I went from being in school debt and buying a bad condo to being financially free in 15 years. A couple other places. Cool. Did you watch it? Yeah, it's great. Very cool. A couple other places. If you want to check out proof of concept, you can look at Bethlehemrentals.com. That's where, that's the last, honestly, that's the last place. I list my rentals just because everybody around here is on Trulia, Zillow, and hot pads. But I have that site as kind of a backup and, you know, a test case. So you can look there. You can see there, too, that I'm serious when I mean my, my properties pop. I want them to

look really nice and I want people to come and jump at my properties. And then my B-P, my bigger pockets profile is Bryce S-17. I'm a new user, so I don't have a whole lot up there, but if you want to shout out to me on bigger pockets, you can do that. And then the email address that I'm going to give for the purposes of this podcast is Bryce, which is B-R-Y-C-E, Stewart, which is S-T-E-W-A-R-T-9 at Gmail.com. And if you're interested in doing deals in Bethlehem, sometimes I have more than I can handle. I'm looking to branch out and maybe bring in some other money these days. So if that's something that you're interested in and you're actually serious, shout out to me. I know the city really well. Like I know the difference between a good deal on one block and a bad deal four

blocks away. So if that's something that you want to do, it's a great area to invest. That's awesome. Hey, can I just point out something real quick? I don't know why I never really thought of doing this before, but I went to your website, Bethlehemrentals.com, right? And you've got a testimonial on there. It says, I love my apartment. It was a great location. My landlord was always on top of things. If I moved back to Bethlehem, I'd rent from him again.

I love that idea. Why have I never thought of putting a tenant, like whatever, recommendation right on the home page? I'm going to totally steal that idea. So, nice work. Right. Well, really the question is, why haven't you thought of merging together a couple of reviews

and turning them into one quote like that, which is what I did. Well, there you go. There you go. I love that. Did you make like a Voltron out of the reviews? You just took a piece of all of them and put them together and made this awesome robotic review. Yeah. Yeah.

And to be honest with you, it keeps me accountable, too. That's what I'm shooting for. That's what I want. I don't want tenants who don't like their experience with me because they still know where my place is and they can pick up a rock. There you go. All right. Man, Bryce, this has been fantastic. Like so many good nuggets in here.

We covered a lot of stuff today. So thank you for joining us. And of course, people can get involved. Read the show notes by going to biggerpockets.com. So I show 276. And they can ask you questions there in the comment section. Hopefully you can jump in and answer those. Or they can just say, hey, Bryce, nice work.

But thanks, dude. This is awesome. Guys, go vacuum your trucks. Vacuum your trucks. Do it. I'm doing it. All right. Take care.

All right. Later, guys. And that was our show with Bryce Stewart. Bam. That was awesome. I love that. How cool was that? that this average Joe was able to retire at 35 years old with all that money.

And he's a self-proclaimed. What was an idiot that he said? Yeah, He said a moron, whatever. Yeah, he said it. I'm not sure if I agree with him. But yeah, that was good.

He seemed like a wicked smart guy though. And I love what you said about the way you make offers when you're offering two different amounts so that you give the seller something to think about and you kind of turn the attention away. That was a really, really good point. And I mean, you had a lot of good points on today. You were on fire. You were on fire, David Green.

That's why they call you, David on fire green. That is why they call me that. That's a good point. Anyway, so hope you guys enjoy the show. Again, if you loved it, go to iTunes, leave us a random review. If you're watching this on YouTube, make sure you guys click that little thumbs up button that helps us reach more people as well. And I don't know, if you're not on our YouTube, you guys should totally subscribe

to our YouTube channel. We put all these podcast episodes up there on the YouTube channel. We also put other things there that you would never see otherwise. I make a lot of videos and going to be making a whole lot more going forward. In fact, I'm researching new mirrorless cameras right now so I can do some better higher quality video. I'm kind of excited for that. And on that note, if anybody here is listening who's in Hawaii, who's a videographer, I would love to hang out with you and talk to you and make some videos.

So hit me up if you're in Hawaii and you're a videographer because we could do some damage. Or I will also say this. If you're a videographer in the Bay Area, hit up David Green. You never know what he could use as well. So we'll do some. You got to be really good to work with me, though, because I help to make me look good. Brandon doesn't really need it. I need it a little bit more.

There you go. All right, let's get out of here. Thank you guys for joining us for BiggerPockets.com. This is Brandon Turner here with my co-host, Mr. David needs a lot of help. Green, signing off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com.

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