BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 351: Unlocking Greater Focus, Creativity, and Happiness Through “Stillness” with Ryan Holiday

Episode Date: October 10, 2019

Stop whatever you are doing and download this episode right now! Today’s show is highly likely to change your life in ways you may not have even realized it needed changing! Brandon and David sit down for an amazing interview with Ryan Holiday, keynote speaker and bestselling author of Ego Is the Enemy, The Obstacle Is the Way, and Stillness Is the Key. And Ryan does not disappoint! You will be blown away with his advice regarding how we talk ourselves into buying deals we know we shouldn’t, how he conducts cost/benefit analysis on different opportunities that come his way, and how he’s learned to avoid “success” when it will cost him more than it’s worth. Ryan also shares some mind-blowing knowledge about why we make bad decisions; why working harder isn’t always better; and how to identify virtues or skills you are lacking in a given situation, so you can figure out the path to the result you want. In addition, he shares how he models himself after the best and brightest minds he knows, how he believes in the power of journaling, and how important it is to put your strongest energy into the pursuits that will yield the highest ROI. This show is simply an incredible breakdown on human performance, goal setting/reaching, and using real estate to accomplish what really matters in life. Download this one today and buckle your seat belt! In This Episode We Cover: How to let your individual trials help you grow by how you respond How to recognize why you made bad decisions How to avoid worse decisions Why he invests in short-term rentals What he means by “stillness is the key” How to become something better Why “working harder” isn’t always the best answer How success can actually become a trap for us How our best ideas can come from time away to think How to model ourselves after the best, brightest, and most successful minds Why he believes so much about the power of journaling How to create routines that free your mind to reach new heights How to put your energy into efforts that lead to a better ROI on your time And SO much more! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums Audible Trial BiggerPockets Podcast 330: How to Ditch Distractions and Get WAY More Done With Cal Newport American Apparel BiggerPockets Youtube Channel BiggerPockets Instagram Brandon's Instagram David's Instagram Listen on BiggerPockets: http://biggerpockets.com/show351 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is Bigger Pockets podcast show 351. You can pay someone to clean your office. You can pay someone to make sales calls for you. You can pay someone to do a lot of things. You can't pay someone to think long term for you and to generate new ideas for you. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio. Simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing,

Without all the height, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everyone? This is Brandon, host of the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my favorite co-host in the world, Mr. David Green. David, what's your middle name?

I don't tell people my middle name. That is a secret. Are you really like one of those? That's funny. Yeah. I'm 100% one of those. Like I can't tell you now, even in private, because you'll blast it all over this. I'm going to say it.

So I'm just going to give you a nickname. It's Leroy. So David Leroy. I believe that I've been referred to as the man is my middle name in the past. And I'm afraid if I tell you my real middle name, you're going to stop doing that. Yeah, that might be true. All right. Well, David, the man, Leroy, I don't know if that's your middle name.

We're going to go with it. Green. How you doing, man? What's new? I'm freaking fantastic, man. Like I mentioned on the podcast today, I've been taking some time off of work and really reflecting on, you know, not just the information. I take in, but my own mindset when I reflect that information.

And I noticed that I was learning a lot, but a lot of results weren't coming from it. And I realized that that was why. So today's guest does an amazing job of helping break down why it is that I'm doing that, why that works, why a lot of our listeners should be doing the same. I mean, I think every episode of Bigger Pockets, we're trying our very best to give you guys the actual practical steps. Here's why savvy real estate investors are obsessed with bonus depreciation. It lets you take that rental property or,

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There you go. Yeah, today's guest is Ryan. Ryan Holiday, of course, Ryan Holiday, you may have heard him before. He is a very, very popular business author, wrote a book called The Obstacles the Way. It's a super, super popular book. Ego is the Enemy, which completely changed my life. A book called Conspiracy, I really like a lot. The Daily Stoic Journal.

And, of course, he just came out with a new book called Stillness is the Key. And I just finished reading it. It's one of the best books I have probably ever read in my entire life. I'm not even kidding. Fantastic book, all about stillness. And we're going to talk about what that means later and how you can use stillness to improve. your life, your real estate investing, your relationships, and all sorts of other things like that. Really good. And Ryan, of course, is a real estate investor as well. So he is going to talk a little

about today about his deals what he's done. He's doing some vacation rental stuff. We'll learn a little bit about that. And he just gives a lot of tangible ways. Just like to improve every aspect of your life. It's really, really, really good stuff today. So stick around for the whole interview with Ryan. But before we get there, I do want to get to today's quick tip. All right, so today's Quick tip. So I mentioned that I like to read books by Ryan Holiday that I've read, I think, pretty much everything he's ever put out. And this new book still, this is the key, is just fantastic. But what I didn't mention is that one of my favorite ways to read Ryan's books and a lot of books is through Audible. So I'm a huge audiobook guy. So I listen to a lot of Audible.

In fact, most of my books and David's books are on Audible as well. And here's a deal. If you are a Bigger Pockets listener, you can actually get a free book from Audible by going to Audible trial.com slash bigger pockets. Just thought I'd throw that out there in case you don't have an Audible membership yet. You get a free book and a free month trial just by going to Audibletrial.com slash bigger pockets. So definitely check that out. Again, Audibletrial.com slash bigger pockets.

Go listen to yourself some books. Turn off the radio once in a while, which we talk about on today's show. And with that, by the way, David, do you listen to music when you work out? We talk about this in the show today, but I don't have your opinion. I don't listen to music ever.

And, you know, I'll just make this real quick. David Guggins, he's a former Navy SEAL. He's really big into mindset. that I like those guys like Jocko Willing because another guy that I love to follow. I can't wait until I get a chance to meet Jocko someday trying to get him on our podcast. He says he doesn't listen to music

when he is preparing for like a race or some big event because when he's doing it, he won't have the luxury of that music. And I'm like a really big proponent for you train for what you're getting into. And a lot of the time we make life easier on ourselves. And then when we're actually tested or we're in a trial, we fail because we made it easier.

You should try to go the opposite. You make things harder on yourself so that when the time comes to be tested, you do better. So I'm not a music guy. I don't like to listen to music except like select times. I probably treat music like dessert. There's a few times in life where I'll take it. But in general, I like to let my mind work out the stuff that I've been, you know,

piling on to it all the time. Yeah. Makes sense. Makes sense. I'm the exact opposite. That's okay. Though you're not quite right. Whenever I hang out with you, you do blast a lot of spice girls.

So, you know, that gets a little obnoxious hanging around with you. It's just nonstop, actually. That's not music. That's inspiration. That is life. That is life. What would my spice name be? What would your spice name be?

I don't know. I'm beardy spice. Beardy spice. Beardy spice. I'm Beardy spice. I'm Beardy Spice. You can be shady spice. All right.

With that, let's get to today's show with the one and only New York Times bestselling author, Ryan Holiday. All right. Ryan, welcome to the Bigger Pockets podcast again. How you doing, man? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me back. Good, good. All right.

So last you were on the show, it was way back. I don't know, 245. So it's been a while. And we talked a little bit about how you owned a ranch outside Austin. You had a vacation rental. And I'm wondering, I guess, since that point, real estate-wise, we'll start there before we get into the book stuff. What do you've been up to? Yeah, I've got a couple more vacation rentals.

I've got two in Florida. And then I've got a long-term rental in Florida as well. I've just sort of been dabbling. I like stuff that kicks off cash mostly. And I like stuff that, you know, gives me an excuse to go places I want to go. Do you stay in your vacation rentals when you go then? Yeah, like I was just I was just there in Florida for a week with my kids. And, you know, you checked out the places, did some minor repairs, you know, saw how stuff was going.

And then, you know, someone checked in right after we left. That's cool. Yeah. So let's talk about this for a minute, the whole vacation rental thing. Because this is something that a lot of people stay. They say, I want to buy a vacation rental because then I can go and live, you know, I can, I can go and stay vacation in that house like is that worked out well for you what is what is worked out well and what are you like i learned a lot of lessons there so when i looked at the math i was i was looking

mostly on uh return uh so what is it kicking off annually and could i get a better return from my uh cash somewhere else i i've done a lot of hard money lending uh over the last 10 years and i i've just started to get more and more skeptical of it at like you know i think in 2009 there were legitimate people who couldn't get access to the credit markets on properties that were, you know, very likely to continue to appreciate. And now when I start to look at those, I think, one, how is this person possibly going to make an eight or nine or ten percent note work for them? It's either that they have a totally irrational attachment to the property or they are just,

you know, hoping against hope. that this thing is going to, you know. And so I just started to become, they were steady producers of income for me. I had a portfolio of different notes that I really liked. And as they started to pay off, I just became less and less convinced that that was a good place for, that was a safe a place for money as it once was. And so I was also thinking, you know, in the notes where it's actually working, they think they're getting a good deal, right?

They wouldn't be borrowing the money if they weren't capturing the equity and the depreciation and all the benefits of owning the property. So anyways, so I started to look for properties where I could just do the whole thing myself. And so I bought one or two in Austin that I like that were low cost. One of them was an apartment. And then my wife and I were on vacation in Florida where we've gone a bunch of times. And we were looking at it and we're like, oh, these places are actually producing very similar returns to investment properties. in Austin, and this is even including the cut of a property manager and all of that. The other reason we started to look at in places other than Texas is that it's, unless you're

getting a really cheap place, the property taxes here are so high that it's hard. It's really hard to make the math work. So we're just sort of experimenting, but they happen to be two, I have three in Florida, two are vacation rentals. One's a long-term rental. It's an extra benefit that we can go there on vacation and we like it. we have a good time. We have stuff there. But I definitely wanted to be very cognizant of not rationalizing an investment purchase or rationalizing an investment because I really wanted to hang out

at the beach. Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of people make that mistake is they will buy a vacation rental. That is just not a good deal at all. And then like they're potentially losing money where it would be so much cheaper just to go and actually pay for a hotel. Because like you're just losing money all the time. So I love that you said that. To make sure you're not rationalizing it just because you want to play somewhere nice. Well, I mean, that's what obviously what time shares are all about. It's tricking people into thinking that a bad deal is a good deal because they really want to say that they own a place here or there or that, you know what I mean? And so I wanted to make sure that that's not what we were doing. So I mostly looked at the at the rate of return and then the fact that we could go there is an extra

benefit. And then if, you know, if you really do get one that has a return, it almost becomes harder to go on vacation there because you're looking at the cost of, the opportunity cost of the week or two that you took it off the rental market. But that to me, that's a sign that you actually have a good deal. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense, actually. Because like, yeah, I mean, I have like this extra unit in my house. And I could rent it out. I could rent it out for $300, $400 a night if I really want to, like as a vacation rental. But I've been having like friends and family stay, but now I'm starting to think every time somebody comes and stays, like my buddy Alex's staying right now, right? I'm like, this costs me two grand. Like I could be, I can, yeah,

now all of a sudden it's like, I should start renting this thing out more often, which maybe I will. But have you found difficulties at all with like the legal side, you know, like a lot of areas, like it's kind of an area specific are shutting down Airbnbs and vacation. Have you had that at all? Yeah, like in Austin, it's tricky. There's definitely properties that I've looked at that I think would make great investments as a vacation rental, but as a long-term rental. the math just doesn't make sense. So yeah, you have to pick a place where that's sort of part of the market and people appreciate, you know, people are openly accepting of it.

I do tend to find, though, that does limit the appreciation of the house, right? Because people are buying these, telling them, there's more comp, everyone is attracted by the fact that they think they can get an ROI out of this market. So it's a little more crowded. Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, you find as the market gets tougher and tougher, and this is just, it's not like this is the first time that's happened. This is a cycle that repeats itself all the time.

You know, in 2010, there was good deals everywhere. You could just pick a random house on the street. It was a good deal. And then as the market gets better and better, more people get in. Money gets cheaper. Everybody starts to pick up momentum. And that's where you see people making mistakes. This is the part of the market cycle where you can easily make a mistake.

It was tough to make a mistake in 2010, 2011. And what you see is people pushing into vacation rentals because literally that's the only way you can get an ROI. And you stop thinking about the work that goes into it. You know, when you get a short-term rental, you're not just getting a passive investment. You're buying a job. You're probably going to need to hire someone to do a lot of the logistics. It's kind of more like buying a business. Sure.

Yeah. And then the other thing you said that I thought was incredibly insightful is you can talk yourself into this deal that the logical part of your brain is saying, no, don't do it. This is a bad idea. you don't buy an investment because you can say, well, I could also go stay there. It's right next to the beach, right? Just go pay the $120 a night to do it yourself if that's what. And I kind of wanted to ask you about that, Ryan, because this is one of the areas where you excel is helping people understand why they do what they do, right?

Helping us understand our own nature. And Brandon and I see this in real estate investing all the time. People that make really big mistakes. And then we look back and analyze it. And it is obvious that was a terrible decision. But when they made it, they didn't feel that way. So you're an investor. and you've got this background.

Can you share a little bit about why you think people ignore the part of them that's saying don't buy this vacation rental, for instance, because you want to stay there? Well, I'll give you an example for my own life. I bought a place in Austin that I bought with a friend and we thought would be a good investment. And it's clear in retrospect that the math was totally optimistic, totally like we'd done a previous deal together that had gone quite well. And as we were looking at the second one, it was like, well, of course, it will be just as easy as last time. And I think the big mistake on my part is I was thinking about how successful it would be,

but I wasn't thinking about where that success actually fit in my life. So what I mean is like, let's say that it had gone perfectly and it was doing super well as opposed to the complete nightmare that it turned out to be. It's sort of been in, it turned out that the person didn't disclose a bunch of permitting issues. It turned out that, you know, there was contractor nightmare after contract nightmare over what was supposed to be some light renovations. You know, whatever. It's currently sitting vacant and this Kafkaesque horror story of permitting nonsense. But anyways, let's say none of that had happened and had gone super well. I would have been making 1,100 extra dollars per month, which is, which is, which,

which would be wonderful if I was 22 and it was a side hustle. $1,100, I'm very privileged to say, would not substantially change my life in any way if my accountant calculated my taxes, you know, this way or that way, and $12,000 of income disappeared, it wouldn't bother me, you know? And so here I was thinking about how it would go well and not thinking about whether even And if it went well, if it would have been a good idea. Do you know what I mean? And I think the worst part about it for me as I sort of do a post-mortem is I think about

the fact that when I was talking to my wife about it, she was like, it's not a good idea. Don't do it. And I didn't listen to her. But all I was thinking about was, I was thinking, again, I was thinking about the upside just as like a game. Like, hey, it would be fun to get this win. and I wasn't thinking about what the win would cost. And what I should have done is something I actually talk about in my book, The Obstacles Away.

You know, the Stoics had this exercise of premeditatatio malorum or a negative visualization. I should have thought about how badly it could go and whether those potential negative outcomes would outweigh the potential positives of a positive outcome. And the truth is, had this gone well, it would have been, a negligible impact and it went poorly and it's been a very poor impact on, or you know, a very big impact on my life. So I think we just, you know, we often know what the right thing is or the wrong thing is the problem is that we just proceed anyway. Yeah. That's very true. There's that book, Mark Mason, I think his name is right, the rule that's subtle art of not giving

an F. Like in there, that's part that stood out most in that book to me was he makes this point that when you set a goal, a lot of people set a goal based on what they want. he says your goal should not be based on what you want. It's what pain will you put up with? Because every goal has a pain associated with it. So you should approach it. And I think that's huge. Like I want to build.

I want to be a billionaire. Like I don't because like I would not do the pain needed to become a billionaire. Like that is not. Same thing. Do you want this kind of real estate business? Well, what's the pain associated with us? It's just asking yourself to look at it from that standpoint. Reminds you of that same, that stoicism like look at it.

Yeah. No, I saw Bigger Pockets post on Instagram. I emailed you about this a couple months ago where someone was saying, that they, you know, they had 20 rental units and they were making $12,000 a month or something. I forget the specific map, but it was just like, when I saw that, I was like, that was my nightmare. That's like a nightmare. The amount of work that you're doing for the return that you're getting, I think it can be very easy just to be thinking about, like, adding dollars to your gross, you know, return. And what that mostly is is ego because you're not going, I need this to pay for, keep.

for my grandmother. You're saying, I want this so I can feel extra important or extra special or I can buy a speedboat. And you're not thinking about the cost that that has. And often, as Seneca said, these things come at the cost of life. Like the amount of unhappiness and stress that this failed property has cost me probably outweighs the gains on several of the properties that I have that are great. So, you know, it's definitely a painful lesson, but a valuable one for me for sure. Yeah, really good. Can you explain for those who didn't listen to maybe the last episode we had you on or haven't read your material?

What, like, when you hear the word stoicism, a lot of people instantly get kind of like, wait, what that sounds like some weird, like, yeah, we all have like these preconceived notions of what that is. Sure. What is the absence of emotion? But in fact, it's this sort of comprehensive philosophy about how to live. It happens the very first stoic, the founder of Stoicism, a guy names Zeno, wasn't entrepreneur. He was a dye merchant who would transport cargoes of dye.

It was an incredibly speculative and risky business. So there is this connection in stoicism to entrepreneurship. Interestingly enough, I'm working on a book right now about some of the more obscure Stoics, And I came across this debate that two of the Stoics were having and they were actually debating. They're like, you're selling a house and it has a known sanitation issue. What is your obligation to disclose this? And they're talking about it not legally, but they're talking about it as two people who are trying to live by the golden rule, but are also engaged in commerce and in business.

And they talk about, they're like, okay, and again, this would be a very, real example for someone like Zeno. He's saying like, okay, you're in a convoy of ships and you're selling grain and you get into Athens first. But you know the other ships are just a few days behind you. So because you're the only one, the price is X. But as soon as they arrive, the price will plummet. You know, is it ethical to sell at an inflated but temporary price that people are going to regret? So the point of Stoicism is actually this sort of operating system for living that's supposed to give us tools and strategies for dealing with the stresses of, you know, you put your life savings in a property and then it burns down or you have an

investment partner and it turns out that they promise to do a certain amount of work and they're not holding up their share. You know, you, you, how do you deal with these things that are taxing your attention and your patience and your your ethics? And that's what stoicism is there to help us with. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I know a lot of people, you know, the obstacles the way, It was like a lot of people cite that book is like, you know, a lot of athletes use that book. A lot of entrepreneurs like that book. It's like like, like crap's going to happen in your life all the time. Like it's like separate.

I'll almost see it. And this is probably a horrible way of explaining it. But like the way I see it is like it's like a detachment from being in it. It's almost like we say don't work in your business, work on your business. It's like don't work in your life. Work on your life. So it's like let's step back and see our life for what it is. And there's all these tools to kind of help do that.

And that's kind of the way that I've seen it. Like how do you feel on that definition? Yeah, I mean, like, so this property I was telling you about. So obviously I would have rather it gone swimmingly and or or I would rather it have just not gone so poorly. But it is what it is. And so the question is not how can I make this not have happened because it did happen. The question is what can I learn from it about myself, about the business?

How can I turn this into an educational experience that allows me to move? forward or what virtues or, you know, skills is this situation now calling for from me? So I sort of had to end up taking the situation over. I've had to do a lot. I've learned a whole bunch of things. I've mostly learned like I probably won't do any more investments in Austin because like I learned something about how the sort of the permitting and coding works in the city that makes it just like an ongoing concern that that's too risky. to really mess around with. So let's say I end up losing $100,000 on this project.

Well, that's an expensive way to learn that lesson. But the other way to see it is maybe it's saved me from losing a million dollars on a future deal. It's all in how you look at it and how you move forward. Yeah. I actually just having a conversation with a buddy the other day. We're talking about how like everyone's wrong like you do something stupid. Let's say you go walk outside and you step on a nail and you're like, oh, man, like that.

Why did I not see it? You get all mad at yourself for seeing it. But I like to try to play this like word or like this picture gave my head as like what if I would have not stepped on the nail? Watch up to my car and got hit by a bus and just died. Right. Like I would assume like everything like could be, you know, a whole lot worse. So it's not as much as like, yeah, the event. It's what do you, how do you think about it?

Yeah. Yeah. It can be a good exercise to think about how many people would kill to have stepped on a nail but be living in Hawaii. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like doing their dream right now. Or yeah, what is stepping on this nail? save you from that was much worse.

Like in some ways, this is all sort of trickery, but it's the alternative is just being discouraged or being mad. So it's all about how can you sort of take control of your thoughts and direct them in a way that allows you to be stronger and better and more resilient? Yeah, really good. Well, you said something that I, dude, I loved what you said. You said that what virtues or skills is this situation? for from me. And this is so, I mean, that just hit me so hard because as a person who's an

entrepreneur, I'm growing a team of real estate agents and we're selling houses, there's always going to be things that go wrong. And what I noticed is that people on my team started saying, yeah, we didn't get the result we wanted. And here's the excuse why it always ended with, well, because it's hard. Yeah. That was what was happening. And it was very subtle and I didn't recognize it. And I was just kind of eating it. Like they'd feed it to me and I'd eat it. And I hit this point where I just felt disgusted, like just food poisoning from hearing. we didn't succeed because it's hard so many times that just the thought of it made me want to throw up. And I told everyone, I'm never listening to that again.

You will not say that again. We are never going to end a statement with because it's hard. We are going to say it is hard. And so therefore, this is my plan for what I'm going to do. And you just sum that up. I mean, obviously much more eloquent than me because you're Ryan Holiday and I'm not, right? But that's how you got to approach life. You see, I'm at A and I need to be at B.

What do I need to do to get there instead of I. can't get there or someone didn't give it to me or it's too hard or whatever. And if you take that approach, man, there's very few things that we're probably not going to accomplish. Well, and look, of course it's hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would be doing it and the market would be so saturated. There'd be no scarcity or gains, right? So I think what we want to do is we want to take the things that happen. Like you have an employee that's being insubordinate. Okay, what is that calling on you as the boss to do? Is it to be patient? Is it to forgive them?

Is it to have to have the unpleasant conversation of letting somebody go? Is it to have the empathy to understand what's wrong with them? Or, you know, whatever it is, you're dealing with a national disaster. You're dealing with, you know, pipes that keep breaking. You know, what is this situation asking for from you and are you going to be able to deliver it? There you go. So let's dive into your book, the new book that you got coming out. Stillness is the key.

It's actually out right now. So I mean, I'm not just saying this because you're on here, and I read a ton of books, but easily one of my favorite books I've read this year. I just devoured this thing. So stillness is the key. Can you explain like what is what do you mean when you say stillness? I mean, if it's the key, let's give away the secret of the book right here. Like what does that mean? Look, everyone I think knows what that word stillness means.

You've felt it in your life, whether it was like that you were negotiating the deal of your career and everything slowed down and you were totally focused. It was, you know, you were writing an article and you were just in this flow state. It was sitting on a porch swing with someone you love. It was when you were locked in conversation with someone that you, you know, you were connected with. Stillness is this state we get in. And it's spoken about by the Christians and the Buddhists and the Stokes and all the ancient schools. But it's really the key to performance at the end of the day. Like, you know, an NFL team in the two-minute drill of the fourth quarter, it's an NBA player with a game on the line and they're shooting a free throw.

It's, it's a, you know, a hedge fund manager trying to make sense of a market that's whipsawing in different directions. Stillness is the place we get to mentally, spiritually, physically that allows us to ignore everything that's going on outside us and focus entirely on what we're doing. and bring all of ourselves to it in a sort of a healthy, adjusted, like, you know, profound way. And I think we know these moments fleetingly, but the book is really about how you can make them a regular practice in your life and how you can sort of how you can cultivate them more often. Yeah. Because as a kid, I feel like those things or as a teenager, even, they seem to happen more often, like naturally. Sure. Like you just get into these states where you're just like in this great moment of like, I can think.

of like a, you know, a hundred examples when I was a kid where you're just like sitting with a friend talking late at night until three in the morning. Like that whole time is just so pure. As an adult, like we can go sometimes weeks or months. It feels like without intention, if we don't intentionally plan those things. Do you have any like tangible? I mean, there's a lot of tips in the book, but you have anything tangible like this is a really good idea. You know, try this in your life. Anything that you can give people that's tangible right now. Yeah, I'll give you a couple. So I would say one, Winston Churchill wrote a fascinating book that I talk about in this book called Painting as a Past Time.

And he talks about how what helped him win the Second World War, what helped him get through the failures of the First World War and manage the incredible workload that he had on him his whole life, was not white knuckling it with more and more work. It was picking up something like painting. He liked to build buildings out of brick on the back of his property. He had hobbies that allowed him to sort of rest his mind while he was. being active. And so I think it can be so easy, whether you're a real estate investor or a lawyer or an author, to be 100% focused on your work. And that's what we think. We go, I'm totally locked in.

I'm 100% on this. This is all there is. You're like, screw work life balance. Well, actually, no, hobbies allow you to step away from what you're doing. Like, look, I was talking about my place in Florida. I was at the beach with my family playing in the sand with my son that when I had the idea for what will be my next book series. I could not have gotten that banging my head against the keyboard trying to force that. You have to be,

you have to have something that channels your energy that allows you to, to sort of explore yourself and explore in a sort of free play fashion. So I think hobbies are a big one. A habit I have in my own life that's a big part of my morning routine is like I go for a long walk every morning

and I don't take my phone. And my son. son and I go for this walk and we're just outside. We're just fully present. We're experiencing. And the ideas that I have on this, uh, on this walk are not only worth a lot of money, but they, they sort of prepare me for the day ahead. So then that's a big one. And if I was going to give you one more, I would say having some idea of what enough is for you. I think it's, and this, this is exactly what I fell, fell into with the deal I was telling you about. If, if you don't know what enough is or you don't know what you need, then the default answer is always more and more, more,

more eventually leads to bankruptcy, right? Like literally or figuratively, if you have no idea what you need to be happy, you will end up chasing things often that come at the expense of that happiness. There's an exchange I have in the book between Joseph Heller and Kurt Vonnegut, two of the greatest writers of the 20th century. And they're at this dinner party. They're in the house of this billionaire. And Vonnegut says to Hillary says, you know, what does it mean? What do you think of the fact that this billionaire probably made more money this year than your book Catch 22 will make in its entire life? And Joseph He looks at him and goes, yeah, but I have something this guy can't have. We'll never have. And Fonnegut says, what's that? And he says, I have enough. And so the

idea of like what you need your life to be, what kind of life you're trying to build what you want your day to look like is really, really important as you are trying to make decisions about what to do or not do or how to live or what to say no to. I think that's so important for people to hear because it's like you mentioned earlier, it is so easy to get into the the frenetic, frantic, almost maniacal, I have to get here and I have to work harder. And that's the only way to achieve is just to do more. And for some people, that is actually useful for them. There's someone who's never tried it much. And that kick-kickstart to see, like, what's really inside you is important. But it's almost like that can be, you know, the battery that jumpstart's your car, but the alternator

needs to kick in and something else has to propel. You don't want to rely on that forever. I got this Instagram message from a 17-year-old kid over the weekend. And he said, David, he was, like, torn up his side. He's like, I want to join the military and I want to go protect our country. and I want to learn all the things they're going to teach me, but I also want a career in real estate, and I don't know what to do. Should I do this? Like what I see you doing or should I do that?

And I said, like, you don't have to pick between them. You should go do everything you want to do in the military and save up your money and invest in real estate. Real estate is not life, but real estate can fund the life you want. If the life you want us to be in the military, or learn what that is, if you feel this calling in your soul that you need to gain confidence and develop who you are, then that's what's.

important. Let real estate be a means to get you there. And I think what you're saying is so important, because some of us, they get good at real estate, it can easily consume our entire lives. And it can become our source of identity and what we do to pick ourselves up when we're down. And you never think that it's a problem because it's healthy. Real estate's good, you know? Right. No, your work is always going to be more predictable and controllable and in a way, sort of gratifying then the realities of marriage or, you know, real life. A real estate investment never tells you what you don't want to hear or criticizes you or has emotions or whatever it is. And so you can end up whenever you get upset,

whenever you get stressed, instead of turning to a hobby or turning to a relationship or reminding yourself what's important in life, you can just throw yourself into work. And you end up doing that enough times and you get so trapped in it that it's very difficult to get out of it. I have this friend, this gal who publicly, like, and to me sitting, like, we've known each other for a number of years now. I said, like, her goal was $30 million net worth. Like, for a decade now, she's like, I want $30 million net worth. She finally achieved it. She got $30 million.

And I was sitting with her talking to her. And she's like, I just didn't feel right. She got really depressed, really sad, didn't really know what would come next. And she finally said, so next time I think. talk to her. I figured it out. I know what I'm going to do now. I just need to get to $100 million. And I was like, I'm not sure that's the answer here. Like, I mean, maybe there's a, there's a line. And I'm curious of this. A question I've asked several people on the podcast over the last few years is how do you balance ambition and the joy that comes from pursuit of business, which there's

a lot of joy. I mean, you rewrite books. We do all this stuff because it's fun. How do you balance that with being content with being still? Well, it's funny because I thought I heard that story about Heller and I looked at it and it's like, okay, so he had enough, but what did that mean? Did he stop writing? No, he wrote a bunch of other books. He wrote one that was a number one New York Times bestseller. They're not, they're not as memorable as the others, but he definitely didn't stop. And there was a, there was a New York Times reporter who said, you haven't written a book as good as Catch 22. And he goes, who has? You know? And so they're, what I think you, what do you think you get from contentment, if you actually really do like the process, is freedom to enjoy it for its

own sake. The problem is, is like being in real estate because you want to make $30 million, or being an author because you want to be famous, or because you want to see yourself, you know, on television or you want the critics to love you. Because eventually you get those things and you realize that they don't really mean anything. And then they, a super, Super Bowl rings not going to make you happy and neither will a mansion and neither will, you know, a million Instagram followers. That doesn't mean that you can't continue to make music or fund deals or write books. It just means you should do it because you actually like doing that thing that you love

the process of it and not because you need the external rewards. Because the reality is the external rewards are not only not as fulfilling as you think they're going to be, but they're often much more unpredictable as you, they're much more unpredictable than you think. So, you know, if you, if you invested in this apartment complex because you thought it was going to make you, you know, a big shot in town or you thought it was going to, you know, double your money, well, okay, what if, what if you get that, but it takes 10 years instead of five years? If you really hate it, that sucks, you know? But if you also, if you like maintaining the building and sourcing tenants and, you know, being created, if it's an art form to you,

then it's going to be a much better experience. Yeah, that's really good. I think Brandon and I hear a lot of people that come to real estate because they don't like their job. Yeah. They're looking at real estate to be their savior from the job they don't like. And all they do is trade a job they didn't like for a new job. They might not like even more with less certainty and more and more at risk. And then, you know, they're still not happy. And we try to tell people all of that. the time. Going full time isn't for everyone. Yeah. And that's a great point that you're making is that's so discouraging when you finally hit what you think was your dream and you get it and you're like, this is worse than where I was. Yeah. Yeah. And so really asking yourself like, what is it

going to be like if I get what I'm hoping for, I think is a big part of it. And then also, and I was just talking to a friend about this, do you actually need to do that thing to be happy? So it's like what I would say to your friend is like, what are you going to do? with $30 million, right? Like I was talking to a friend of mine who was a writer who was leaving, he was going to start a company, and the purpose of starting the company, long, roundabout way is like ultimately he wanted to make a bunch of money

to continue being an author. You know what I mean? Like he was open and make a bunch of money so then he could write, you know, his dream was in 20 years to be writing more books. And it's like you're giving up what you already have to do a extremely hard thing to have the, you know, so you talk to people and you go, oh, what do you want to make all this money for?

And it's like, oh, I need freedom. But it's like actually what evidence do you have that you will be more free with $30 million? It may be that what you have to do, who the person you have to become, to accomplish that is ultimately a less free person. That's such a good point. And, you know, I don't know anyone in my life better than Brandon Turner who inherently understands that and is very aware.

of not getting caught up in those snares. He will ask you those questions all the time, like, but why? He'll say that just all the time. This is what I want to do, but why? Because what we don't think about is exactly what you said, Ryan, like, I want to have a six-pack. Okay, but why? Right. Well, who would ever say having a six-pack is bad?

But do you really want to get up every morning at 4.30 and go for a two-hour swim and then eat, if that's what it takes your body to have that and then maintain that forever? and it's not going to make a difference in your health. It's pure ego that you want everyone to see it. Would you actually be happier having that six-pack and having to structure an entire life around accomplishing that goal? Would the cost that you have to pay to have that actually be worth it? Or would you just be like, you know what, if I don't have a six-pack,

as long as I'm in a happy relationship and I'm healthy, I don't really need it. My shirt's never off anyways, and it might be worse for me if I had it because then I'd become prideful and I'd want everyone to notice it. And when they don't see my six-pack and they're saying anything, and my feelings are hurt. I'm going through life, working really hard.

I'm not getting anything. And all of a sudden, it's worse that you went after something that looks like it would be a beneficial thing to have. No, and my wife and I are looking now at this commercial property that we're thinking about buying and there's a business idea we have for it. And I think we're doing a much better job of thinking about, you know, what does this do for our quality of life? Like, I think part of the reason we're able to make that decision is to even have the privilege of thinking that way is because we've made investments and been smart with money so, like, like if this fails miserably, like those things will continue to pay our bills. You know, we've been one of the, I think the benefits of having sort of passive, intelligent real estate investments is that they give you freedom to explore things

that you otherwise wouldn't be able to do. But as we're thinking about this project, like my primary concern is not, is not whether the business will work. I know I can make the business work in some form or another because that's who I am and that's the work that I'm willing to do. The question is, will success be a positive or a negative for us? Like, will having this thing be wonderful, will be lucrative? But we're now chained to this place and we can't move if we want to move or, you know, we can't go on vacation if we want to go on vacation or, you know, I've got to rush to this place at 10 a night because some problem happened. is that what I want success to look like for me? Or is, you know, is it potentially going well going to radically simplify our lives or give

us sort of a base to be to develop on? So as we're thinking about it, we're not just thinking about, you know, what are the dollars and cents? We've done that intelligently on our other projects. We're now able to go, is this where we want to go directionally in our lives? Yeah. I want to circle back to something you mentioned earlier when you're giving some tangible ways people can find more of that stillness in their life.

And one of those you mentioned is you, you mentioned how going for the walk every day gives you that clarity and those thoughts. And I just want to like, first of all, say the same thing is so true for me in that like the most stillness have ever had in my life, like the best ideas came from. The most calm is when my daughter was born and she would wake up like four in the morning just crying and my wife needed sleeps. I'd take her, put her in the car and you can't listen to music because you're, you know, she's sleeping.

So I would drive for like four hours and just drive around the neighborhood. But like some of like some of what we have at bigger pockets today. Some of what the podcast does today, the books have written came from those times of just driving. Now on the other hand, like I did this like half Iron Man recently and when did the whole seven, it was like seven or eight hours, right? It was just pure exhaustion. And I found out like the day of I couldn't listen to music while I was doing it. They had no music. And I always run with music and I always would bike with music.

I even swam with music. When I'm in the car, first thing I do, I turn on music. When I'm at home, I turn on my Alexa. There's music going all the time. And I realize that's probably not a good thing. And that taught me, like, the fact that I, the worst part of that marathon, the triathlon was not the triathlon. The worst part was the silence. Like, like, I'm not the only one that's like this.

We just have music and talk radio and TV from the time we wake up to the time we go to bed. Why do that to ourselves? I talk about this fascinating guy of Randall Stuttman, who's a friend of mine. he's a consultant and advisor to sort of the CEOs of most of the big New York hedge funds and banks, basically anyone you can think of in finance he's worked with. And he was saying that he, over the years, he's asked them about what they do to relax. And he's looked at all their hobbies. It was, you know, bike racing or fly fishing or sort of long distance bike riding or fly fishing or listening to classical music or what he found across all their hobbies.

was an absence of voices. He said that they enjoy something that is an absence of voices. And it makes sense. They have 10,000 people working for them, which means somebody is always asking them for something or they're always listening to something and that they needed time that was quiet and apart from all that to allow them to recuperate and think clearly and gather their thoughts. So, yeah, I tend to listen to music when I run and work out. But when I'm with my son, there's no music. It's just quiet. And every once in a while, like, I won't take headphones with me when I run for precisely the challenge of, like, can I mentally do this? You know, it's basically, I think, a shortcut for turning off your mind listening to music.

And you just don't want to become too dependent on it, I think. But, you know, I talk to people that are like, hey, obviously people are listening to this on a podcast right now. I think podcasts are great. But let's not make sure, let's make sure we're not, like, you know, cranking it up to three. X speed and just jamming them into our brain and we never have a, you know, we never have even a minute of silence. Like you need silence in your life because silence is where we can, we can hear that voice inside of us.

It's often telling us things that we'd otherwise not think of. That's really good. There's a, I'm going through a phase in my life right now where I'm not working nearly as much. The last two weeks I've done hardly any work and all, but it feels like I'm working because I'm thinking so much about my own mind and how I think. So what I realize, what I do is I focus on the information that comes into the container of my mind and I'm always trying to jam more stuff in there. I love learning.

I'm listening to tons of podcasts and reading tons of book and learning tons of stuff. But I don't see hardly any impact from any of that information that I put in my head. Sure. Because I have the same filter that looks at all that doesn't figure out how to actually apply that or do anything with it. And it's like I keep putting new apps. You just realized. your business needed to hire someone yesterday.

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So I'm having to actually look at the operating system that is what I use to look at the information. It's very tricky. It's very easy to never even think about the fact you're using Internet Explorer to surf the internet. You just look at the web pages and not think about this experience would be different with Google Chrome. And it might be more effective. There's a better way to think. And that's been on my mind constantly.

And the only way I've been able to maintain the focus it takes because it's so hard to challenge your own perspective and your own way of looking at stuff. It's like these patterns have been there for 36 years in my life is you've got to get away from doing, doing, doing all the time. And these questions your time are right are so powerful to trigger that. Why do I even like it? What am I getting out of this? Do I even enjoy this? Or am I doing it for different reasons? And what I found is so powerful.

Like I've been making the same amount of money not working for the last two weeks that I was when I was just maniacally going after it. Sure. Because I'm more effective with the little bits of times that I do work. The relationships and the talks I'm having are so much more impactful on other people that they are providing the referrals. that I need for me, rather than me thinking I got to go talk to 50 people. If I talk to the right five people, it's the same thing. And I never, ever, ever thought that way when I was in, you know, what we were doing. So I can just 100% support the point you're making.

And I know the listeners that are hearing this. They're probably wondering like, yeah, that sounds great, but can I really trust it? Can I take my hand off or take my foot off the gas without the car crashing? I know, Ryan, you've pursued this for a long time. What advice do you have for someone in that position? Well, look, there's a reason that people whose time is worth a lot more money than your time or my time do stuff like that, right? Like I wrote a book about Peter Thiel a couple years ago, and I would have thought he'd be the sort of busiest person in the world, that he'd never have time. And we would have these three or four hour-long conversations.

And I was invited to a handful of dinners you would have. And he'd have these dinners that would sometimes go on for five or six hours. And then I realized, oh, wait, at this point in his career, he's not doing anything, right? You know what I mean? Like, he's not scheduling meetings. He doesn't have to review paperwork. Like, he has people that do everything. The only thing that he can't pay people to do for him is come up with theories about the world,

come up with ideas for what he, like, trends he wants to predict or observations he has. So relationships and sitting down and having long, thoughtful conversations is the way that he monetizes what. That's the best form of monetization of his time. And so what you realize is that the really powerful people are thinking about their time in a way that's almost anathema to how we think about it. Bill Gates goes twice a year, takes one week, and he just goes out to a cabin in the woods and he just thinks. He just reads books and he thinks. and that might seem like an indulgence that only a billionaire could have. But in fact, that's why he's a billionaire.

It's the ideas that he has when he steps away from everything that he's able to come up with big breakthroughs. And again, you can pay someone to clean your office. You can pay someone to make sales calls for you. You can pay someone to do a lot of things. You can't pay someone to think long-term, you and to generate new ideas for you. That has to come from you. And so you have to make, make sure that you are, like I said, I had an idea on vacation. I can't pay someone to go on vacation for me and have an idea for me. That has to be me being in control enough of my own life

to make the decisions and to have the experiences that are required for me to have the ideas that ultimately influence and direct my work. Yeah, really good. Yeah, I think every book idea I've ever had. Every book came from a vacation. Same way. The same thing as you. Like, and yeah, you don't get that by just pushing and pushing and pushing. You get that by stepping away a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, I read a study recently. I wish I could cite it now because it was, it was shocking. It was basically something like, you know, 80% of all like whatever decisions to CEO is made are made not on work hours or something like that. It was like the shocking stuff. Totally. Yeah, because your mind needs time to get out and just process it and the

subconscious to work on it. And that's when those ideas come. Yeah. Exactly. For anyone who loves this line of thinking, Brandon, before you jump in, check out episode 330 of this podcast where we interviewed Cal Newport. Very, very similar line of thinking. No, Cal is amazing and hugely influential in my work and in my life. Like, if you can't pay someone to do deep work for you, you have to carve out that time. And it's not a luxury.

It's an essential good for your business. Speaking of time, so you mentioned in the chapter on routine, you talked about routines. You heard this phrase in there, I underlined it and said complete freedom, said all the greats understand this. Complete freedom is a nightmare. What do you mean by that? And let's talk about routine then. I'll give you an example.

You know what fire is, right? The financial independence retired. I was reading an interesting New York Times article about a bunch of the people that had sort of successfully done that. And they were talking to this one guy. He'd retired it, I don't know, like 30 and he made a bunch of money and it done it. And the reporter goes, so what'd you do today? And he goes, well, I stared at the ceiling fan for a while. And he's like, and I'm making my way through like the thousand greatest movies of all time.

And you're just like, oh my God, dude, get a fucking job. You know, like that's not what life is, right? Like you have to have structure. You have to have purpose. You have to have a project. It's why so many people who retire end up being miserable. It's not that retirement is miserable. It's that they were so solely focused on their job

that they have no other interests or no other purpose in this planet but work. And so for me, routine is a way to sort of create order, to create purpose, to prioritize my work, but also to prioritize things that are not work. And so every morning I try to wake up around the same time. I try to do that. I have a routine that I go through in the morning. I have a routine I go through before bed.

I make time that requires me to sit down and do creative deep work because I know it's not just going to happen on its own. That's not how it works. Yeah. Yeah, routine. When I was in my younger punk rock days where I wanted to be the next blinkinity too, you know, like routines, the man and fighting against it. I was so against it. And that's changed so much, especially maybe with kids, like we're in a lot more routine, you know, that I have kids and you have kids. Like, but I, I cherish my routines now.

Like, I love that. Like, I have a cup of, like, I don't even like coffee all that much. But I go to Starbucks every single day with my wife. And I get a cup of tea. I don't even get caffeine. It's not even a caffeine. I can get tea now usually. But it's just that, like, routine of that's what we do together that, like, centers us every

morning, pretty much we go. Or, like, every night before I go to bed, I have a cup of decaf coffee. Again, I don't even like it that much. It just became, like, this centering, like, thing that we do. So, yeah. I think you realize that with kids, you, you, realize, like, if they don't have a routine, they're unhappy. Yep. And, uh, that, they're struck, like, if, if we violate the routine, my son doesn't sleep well. Because now

his whole world is out of order. It's the same with dogs. It's the same with horses, you know, like, you need a routine. And the idea that human beings are not animals that, you know, we're designed to just do whatever we want, whatever we want it is just very unrealistic and, and, and I think, very unnatural. And so, yeah, how. Having a routine just kind of takes the edge off and then it allows that stillness to creep in and then for you to do the important work that you're trying to do. You ever do a vacation? Oh, sorry.

I was to say, if you ever do a vacation, at the end of it, you come home. You're like, I feel like I need a vacation from a vacation. Sure. What I just realize right now is no, what I need is routine again because on vacation, you don't have routine. So what I'm actually craving where I think I'm craving more freedom or relaxation. What I'm actually craving is structure again in my life. So I really feel calm.

I just never put that together until just now. And I think it's really hard to switch back and forth, right? It's like you tell yourself like, oh, I'm on this diet, but I'm just going to like eat whatever I want for the next couple days. Yep. Getting back to it is extremely difficult because your body reverts. You know, like we're always reverting to that unstructured state. So it's something you got to build and then it's something you got to protect for sure. I think when you're not in a routine, your brain has to work double time or more to figure out what should I be doing?

How do I get safe? What's going to make me feel? I need to be in an environment where I feel like I have some control over it, which it takes a lot of horsepower to do that. And you don't have stuff left over for the deep work that you referred to for those moments to get away and to think and to let these ideas come because your subconscious is running around. Where am I going to eat? What am I going to have? Where am I going to sleep? Who's going to be around?

me. I don't know this person. What are they going to say? It's a lot of strain on you. Now, on the other end of the spectrum, you can get into trouble being a person of too much routine. Anything that asks you to step outside of that, you're fearful and you don't have confidence. And so you're stuck in that boat. But like Brandon is, that's a very good point. There's a healthy level of routine that you need. You need to be able to let your brain coast so that you can think these thoughts that we're talking about. You can ask yourself, does this even matter to me? You're not thinking those thoughts. I was a police officer for 10 years. Technically, I still am one. When you are in the middle of a very

high risk, high threat type situation, you're not aware of almost anything, right? Your brain goes through what we call auditory exclusion. I've said guys names that were two feet away from me, and they could not hear their own name because they were so focused on that gun the guy had. Or, you know, officers all the time are driving a car and they're going super fast, they're going to, you know, pursuit. And they don't see the car pull out in front of them that they hit. They always say, We call that tunnel vision. You just zoom in on the threat that's right in front of you. And they train us to slow down your breathing, open your perspective, calm yourself down

so that you can see what's behind the guy that you might be shooting at. Is there a kid back there? Is it better that I don't shoot at this guy that had the gun? And I learned that lesson from being in that environment that those moments are good for growth. But if you try to live in that place, you don't see anything that's happening around you is a horrible way to live. Oh, totally. And nothing shows you this more than having kids.

because if you think you're in control of your routine and then you introduce this insane, tiny person into your world, you quickly realize just how little control you have over things. So for me, it's become sort of routines plural. You know, like this is what I do in this sort of set of circumstances. This is how I try to play it in these set of circumstances. You got to add some flexibility. You can't go through life really rigid or you break under the stress of it. But if you don't have any routine or you have unlimited decisions to make throughout the day, you start making really bad decisions.

There's a reason, you know, Steve Jobs were the same outfit every day. Barack Obama had only a couple suits that he chose from. The idea is I want to limit the amount of unnecessary choices that I make throughout the day. Who was the American Idol guy? Was it Simon? Yeah, Simon Cowell. We're a black shirt every time. Yeah.

And that's a guy that had to make decisions on, is this a yes or a no constantly? Sure, right. Yeah. I recently took a page out of their book, and I went on Amazon, found it. You used to work for American Apparel, right? Yeah. So I found that you can buy American Apparel T-shirts on Amazon for like $9, free shipping to your house. Like, nothing on them, right?

Yeah. And they're like the most comfortable shirts I've ever worn. Yeah. So I went and bought seven shirts that are brown like this, and I have five blue ones. And I wear them 90% of my days. Like, unless I'm going somewhere I have to dress up, it's these two shirts. No, no, I had to wear this shirt because I was at something earlier. but I wear an American apparel power wash to you,

which is a version of that t-shirt, but it's actually more comfortable. I think you'd like it better. I'll check that out. So it's designed, I mean, I don't work there anymore, but, so I'm selling this shirt pretty hard. But no, it's, it's chemically treated, so it feels like it's been washed like 40 times.

Like, that's what it mimics. It's an element of comfort. I wear the same shirt every single day. I don't, it's not, for me, it's not just, reducing the amount of decisions that I make when I decide what to wear in the morning, it's actually also eliminating the act of shopping from my life. Think about people who are constantly having to go out and look for clothes and how inefficient that is and having to judge whether something is fashionable or unfashionable or

whatever it is. Find what you like, stick with it. And then if you're going to experiment or try new things or explore, do that in your business. Do you know what I mean? Focus that energy on, hey, I'm going to drive over to this side of town and see what this is like. Or I'm going to try this or that or I'm going to do it this way this time. Don't exhaust yourself hemming and hoeing over where you're going to have lunch. You know, that's not, there's not a great ROI on that decision.

But really decide whether you're going to buy this stock or not. That's why I shaved my head. There you go. That's the secrets of my success. I shave my head so I can't think about it. And brilliance comes out of me for the rest of the day. Tomorrow, Ryan's going to have a shaved head. You're like, you're right.

I'm doing it. All right. So last thing I want to get to before we close this thing up or one of the last things. You have a journal, the Daily Stoic. Is that what's called? The Daily Stoic Journal, yeah. And we have one of bigger pockets as well, like the intention journal. And journaling has been a huge part of my life.

Why is journaling so powerful? Why do people, why does it change lies in the journal? I mean, when that's part of my routine, it's huge. Yeah, so I wake up in the morning and I sit down and actually work on three journals. So I have one that's called a one line a day journal, and it has spots for five years. So this morning when I was looking at it, it was showing me what I did on that day last year and the year before, because I've done it for three years. I have just a general blank journal where I write different thoughts. And then I do the Daily Stoic Journal, which sort of gives me something and intention, like you're saying, to sort of go through and think about over the course of the day.

and then to reflect on my success or failure of it, either that evening or the following morning. So if this process, I think what journaling is about is like putting something out there and then seeing how you do, putting something out there, then reflecting on how you did. It's this process of sort of putting yourself up for review and examining yourself and looking at yourself from a distance. And so, you know, when you mess up, when you have success, really break it down and think about like why did it work? Why did it not work? What did you learn from it? What did you not learn?

What could you do better next time? And it's this process that ultimately makes you sort of sharper and wiser for what you've gone through. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, one thing I found really helpful in journaling. So much I put it in our journal, but like from a business standpoint is there's so much noise out there of what you could do in real estate, for example, right? Sure. To buy around. There's a thousand things you could do every single day. there's this like idea that there's really only like one or two things that actually matter generally. So like what I find when I journal it helps me actually go, oh, what is that like one simple thing I actually have to do? And it's usually less than a five minute task, almost always.

But we don't identify it. We just will go months without identifying what that next simple little thing is. But journaling helps me identify this is what has to get done. And if I don't do it that night when I go to review my journal, I'm like, well, a three minute conversation. Why didn't I do that? It was the only thing I had to do today to really actually drive things forward. Well, I have this ring. I don't know if you can see it, but it says it's one of the rings we make for Daily Stoke, but it just says memento Mori on it. And then on the inside it says you could leave life right now, let that determine what you do and say and think. And I think journaling helps with that. But it's also this process of going like, okay, if today was my last day on the planet, what do I need to get done? You know, if this was the last time I was going to do X, Y, or Z, how would I do it? And so I think journaling helps us. put these things in perspective, but we want to make sure that we're not just, we're not just

journaling about, oh, you know, so-and-so said something mean to me yesterday, or how can I make a little bit more money, or, you know, why am I not getting the credit that I deserve? We want to be journaling and thinking about and meditating on the big questions, as you were saying, like, what actually matters? What's the main thing here? What's the important thing? What thing matters in light of the fact that I'm going to die and I could die this afternoon. You know, that's what you want to be thinking about. And I think it will help paradoxically, it will help you be better at your job. It will help you be a better investor because you're going to be focused on what's actually

important, not all the noise and the chaos around you. Yeah. So good. So good. Yeah. That whole like you could die today, the Memento Mori, right? Yeah. Like, hey, I got one of those guys.

I think I have two of your coins. and around my house. Yeah, I see him occasionally. I was like, oh, yeah. Like, I love that. Like, there's this phrase that, you know, in the Christian line of thought, you know, I'm in the Christian world, I guess. We have, like, in light of eternity, like, does this matter?

Does that really matter that you didn't get that one real estate deal? Really in the grand scheme of things. Yeah, not much actually matters when you look at it from that. Totally. So I think it's just a really good reminder. We're going to die. Like, we're all, from the moment we're born, we're in the process of eventually dying here. So, you know, thinking through that powerful stuff.

dude. All right. Well, this has been fantastic. Anything you want to leave us with? Any final thoughts? I mean, obviously, tell us where you can get the book and people can order it, but anything else you want to share? No, no. I mean, I think leaving people with that thought, like, does this matter in the light of eternity? Does this matter in the light of your mortality? Not just this is an inconsequential thing and I'm not going to give it much attention, but also, like, you know, just becoming a billionaire or having $30 or $100 million really matter in the light of eternity or you can't take it with you when you die. Don't take on more than you need. Don't be stressed more than you need to be stressed. Don't take things more personally.

Don't get your identity wrapped up in success. Focus on what actually matters, which is whatever happens to be in front of you right now. And yeah, you can get stillness is the key. Anywhere books are sold, if you want a daily meditation on stoicism, you can sign up at daily stoic.com. And I'm at Ryan Holiday on most social platforms.

Perfect, perfect. Now, a quick question. We usually do end with the famous four. at the end. Okay. Favorite. Favorite. Favorite book?

Favorite. Do you have a couple favorite books that's helped you with your real estate and helped you just business in general? Let's go those two. Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to, I'm looking at my shelf here. As far as my couple behind you. Yeah, yeah.

As far as real estate goes, I don't think there was one book, but I did just recently read David Brooks's book, the second mountain. Okay. When his point is that you climb one mountain, you think that's success and then you get there and then you realize that that's actually not the mountain that matters and that there's a second mountain usually that has to do with community and family and having impact on the world. And it has changed how I've thought about things a little bit, that it's not just about accumulating more or making more money, but it's about deciding,

you know, what you want your role on this planet to be. All right. All right. What about, David, I'm going to stay your question because I already started hobbies. What do you do for fun? for me running and swimming are my two are my two big hobbies and then I have this farm and we love you know just putzing around and working on it and slowly improving it yeah that's cool I'm going to still Brandon's question I'm going to change a little bit in your opinion right what sets apart successful business people from those who give up failure never get started that's a good question I do think there's a line from Seneca where you're saying you know he's like fools have one thing in common.

They are all getting ready to begin, which, you know, it's like successful people start stuff. You know, they make progress. And I think, you know, your point is that people are always, always have excuses for why they haven't started. I hear from kids all the time, they're like, I want to drop out of college and do this. And that thing that they want to do is never dependent on dropping out of college.

You know what I mean? They're like, I want to be an entrepreneur. It's like, okay, what company are you starting? Started from your dorm room, you know? So I think successful people, by definition, get started. I love it. It's fantastic. All right.

Well, very, very, very thankful for you today for coming on. Again, still, this is the key. Pick it up, everybody. I highly, highly, highly recommend it. Really good. Like I said, one of the best books I've read in a long, long time. So check it out. And Ryan, we'll have you back again someday in the future when you write another book

and got some more real estate deals. All right. You got it. All right. Thanks, brother. All right, now was our episode with Ryan Holiday. Unbelievable good, just like I knew it would be, because every time I talk to Ryan,

I'm always, I walk away going, that guy is so wicked smart and, like, helpful. So, yeah, really good stuff. That was amazing. And honestly, guys, it's really hard to get Ryan to do this kind of stuff. So I really hope that you took as much out of that as you can because he's in high demand. He spends a ton of his time thinking about the stuff that we shared today

so that we can all benefit from it. And, yeah, like you said, Brandon, that was a good conversation. Yeah, really good. There's so many things in that book. And I would recommend you guys, if you guys want more information on this, go pick up the book, help support Ryan. Still this is a key. Get an Amazon, Audible, wherever you can.

Really, really good stuff. But then don't just read it, but put it into practice. Like, take the stuff and apply it to your life. Like, one little way that I'm doing that, I mentioned this a few months ago, but, like, I've been doing more massages. And that sounds like super, like, self-indulgent, which it definitely is. But that hour where I'm, like, getting a massage, like, is, like, pure silence. Like, there's just nobody talking.

There might be some little music, right? But like those times, I just think the whole time by my business and real estate and my relationships. And like I always walk out of those things inspired to like go out and work on my business more. So like that's just one little way to try to instillness in my life while also getting to feel fantastic during a massage. So find little ways like that to add more stillness in your life because it's going to benefit pretty much every area of your life. Agreed. Gigi. 100%.

I mean, we spend way too much time shoving new information into our mind and not enough time actually letting absorb into and become a part of us so we can actually use it. Yeah. Well, much better put than I just put it. So I like that. Thank you guys for being a part of our show today listening. Make sure you guys are leaving us ratings and reviews. If you haven't done so yet over in iTunes, it helps us out a ton when you leave a rating and or a review. Also, if you're not watching us on YouTube, we've actually got some new kind of camera abilities now on YouTube. So the video is a little bit higher quality than it used to be. Make sure you're following us on YouTube.com slash bigger pockets. Subscribe to our channel there. And follow us.

on Instagram at Bigger Pockets is the Bigger Pockets Instagram. Mine is at Beardy Brandon and David's is at David Green with an E 24. David Green 24. Absolutely. We love to hear from you guys. Tell us what you thought of this episode. Tell us if there's guests you want to hear from more. Tell us how this impacted you.

I know Brandon and I do the same thing. We love to share this stuff when people send us inspirational stuff about how it impacted so everybody else can see it. There you go. All right, guys. Thank you so much. Dave, you want to take us out? Yes, sir.

This is David. No middle name Green for Brandon. But why? Turner, signing off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place.

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