BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 412: Start Investing in Large Multifamily? How to Do it, and Why (or Why Not) with Ashley Wilson

Episode Date: October 29, 2020

Ashley "BadAsh" Wilson is back today to discuss how she's shifted strategies since her popular first appearance on the show two years ago. Today's topics: Jumping from house flipping and short-term rentals into large multifamily; finding and using your unique ability when getting started; and how women can (and should!) use real estate investing to secure financial independence. Want to know how many offers it takes to land a 150-unit apartment building in Houston? Interested in multifamily, but unsure where to start? You'll get answers in this show – and in the multifamily "tip sheet" she prepared just for our audience (download it below). If you are a woman who's determined to get into real estate investing – or if you think your wife, mother, sister, or daughter would benefit from hearing Ashley's story – pick up a copy of her new book, The Only Woman in the Room: Knowledge and Inspiration from 20 Women Real Estate Investors today! In This Episode We Cover: How Ashley made the jump from flipping and rental houses to large multifamily investing Her #1 tip for anyone who wants to get into multifamily How she acquired a 150-unit apartment building in Houston What a "Letter of Intent" (LOI) is Looking at 200 deals just to buy one (!) Using "the stack" method vs. multifamily syndication How she became an expert in construction management Why she wrote a book about being "the only woman in the room" Why it's worth visualizing your perfect day when you start building your business And SO much more! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Podcast BiggerPockets Building a Six-Figure Family Real Estate Business with Ashley Wilson Roadmap for Scaling to Large Multifamily BiggerPockets Blog Open Door Capital J Scott of BiggerPockets Business Podcast Mid Atlantic Summit by Dave Van Horn The Real Estate Investher InvestorGirl Brit Instagram BiggerPockets Podcast 320: Hands-On BRRRR Investing and DIY Secrets with Instagram Star Brittany Arnason Check the full show notes here: http://biggerpockets.com/show412 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 412. There's no right or wrong strategy. Just because you look up to someone and you say, I want to be where they are someday, that doesn't necessarily mean that you need to be where they are today because your personal situation might not match their personal situation. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, You're in the right place.

Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What is going on, everyone? This is Brennan Turner, host of the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host, Mr. David Green. David, guess what happened this morning, not five minutes before we started recording the episode? What happened? Guess what? Take a wild guess.

A wild, wild guess? Take a wilder guess. If I had to, my first guess, the first time I'd ever guessed anything would be, do I get four guesses by chance? You get one guess. What happened? Okay, fine. I'll tell you. While there took his very first steps this morning.

But how many did he take? Four of them. Yeah, yeah. It was awesome. I know. He got a track star there, four steps on his first time. Yeah, it was pretty excited. So I missed it on my first on Rosie.

I missed the first steps. And I swore I would not miss that. And I almost did. I walked out of the house to do this podcast. And Heather goes, wait, Brandon, come here. I think he's going to do it. And I turned around. I walked over.

I was like, come here, go over. And he just walked right across the floor to me. It was magical. So yeah, very cool. Anyway, but that's my big news for the day. What about you? What's up with you? How's work?

How's life? How's hiring? How's your team? That's going really good, actually. I'm hiring people for my real estate team and my loan team and basically just interns in general. So we've been interviewing some people. And there's a lot of people that are stuck at home right now or COVID has made them rethink that their previous career.

So for everyone listening, If you've been thinking about getting into something new, this is a really good time to do it. So I'm going to be hiring some new people and business is going as good as it's ever gone. So thank you for asking that. I'm very blessed. That's cool, man. And actually, it reminds you something we talked about on today's show with Ashley. We talked about this idea of, you know, you have to make money in something.

And then you also should be investing that money. Now, you could have a job and you can make money into a job and then go and dump that money into an passive investment. Or you can make money in real estate some way, whether it's flipping, whether it's short-term rentals, whether it's work. it's working as a real estate agent or working for a real estate agent. You got to make money. And the nice thing is when you can combine those two, when you're working in the business and you're also investing, like you kind of get the, it's like to use the analogy that both of us have kind of been playing with a lot lately about building bridges.

Yes, you have two bridges, but they're sharing a ton of material. And you're like, you're really, they're like side by side and you're like sharing the crane to be able to use both because you're in real estate. So if you're at a point right now where you're just like, man, I hate my job. I want something new. Maybe now it's a good time to say I'm going to shift. and I'm going to start building my real estate passive business alongside my active business. Maybe we should make that our quick tip.

That's really, really good. And that is today's quick tip. Yeah, that synergy between what you love and doing it to make money, it makes you better at the investing for us. And it helps us to earn income with what we're doing. And we get to play in the same pool the whole time. And today's guest, Ashley, brings a fire episode. And she shares a lot of really good advice for how to figure.

out what you're good at, what's your niche. Get in where you fit in and how to know where that is. Yeah, and her conversation on like getting into multi-family was solid, which by the way, she put together like an hour, because we didn't, we don't want to spend, you know, an hour or two going into all the things you need to know to get into multi.

So she actually put together a like a checklist. You can just get it for free. Just go to BiggerPockets.com. So I show 412. We'll put a download link to it there in the show notes. So definitely check that out. And then make sure, I think maybe one of the strongest parts of this entire show.

And I know you'd agree because we were like, we were messaged to their back and forth about how good. good it was, was this idea of how to find deals, no matter what kind of competitive market you find yourself in. Like right now, how to find great deals. Ashley just nailed it and it has to do with problems. Here's why savvy real estate investors are obsessed with bonus depreciation. It lets you take that rental property or commercial building you own and depreciate most of the cost against your income. Legally, 100% IRS compliant. That's instant cash flow improvement. Cost segregation

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Get a quote in minutes at biggerpockets.com slash landlord insurance. Steadily, landlord insurance designed for the modern investor. It's time to get on with today's show with my good friend Ashley Wilson. So I don't know. I got nothing else to add before that. David, anything? Should we bring her in?

What you just mentioned, Brandon, the advice she gives, probably could be completely frank, some of the best advice the Bigger Pockets podcast has ever put out. It is incredibly powerful when you combine what Ashley talks about

with solving problems and finding your niche. Yeah, so true. All right, listen up, everyone. Take some notes. You're going to love this. Without further delay,

Ashley Wilson. Ashley, welcome back to the Bigger Pockets podcast. It is fantastic to talk to you again. How you doing? Great. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, so let's get into this. So the last time you were on the show was back a couple years ago. And we learned about how kind of you built your business and real estate portfolio. But I know you've done a lot of moves since them.

I mean, you were out here in Maui hanging out with me a couple years ago. And we were talking about like where you wanted to head toward. And now like it's cool because I've seen you really like move into that in a lot of ways, which is super exciting. So we're going to go through kind of that journey today. But what for those who didn't listen to the last episode? Give us a quick, you know, one or two minute synopsis on how you got into real estate, you know, kind of what the path that you took. Absolutely. So I got into real estate because I was looking for a way that we could invest our money and diversify our retirement strategy. And what I didn't realize at the time is that real estate would then become my full time passion, which it is today. So we've done a little bit of everything from house hacking, short term, long term rentals, flipping. And now we focus very heavily on large multifamily. That's cool. Why the multifamily thing? Why focus on that now? Multi-family has a lot of advantages. I think that people know quite commonly through tax benefits,

also to long-term wealth-building strategies. Health slipping alternatively is more like a kind of get-rich. It's surges of income where it doesn't have that long sustainability of cash flow that we like. Of course, there's both the natural and the forced appreciation factors too, but we really like multifamily because it also hedges against inflation. Okay, that makes sense. Now, did you start with multifamily investing or did you start with single family and move into it? We started with single family. We actually started. The first thing we started with was short-term rentals like Airbnb rentals.

We transitioned into long-term rentals, then flipping, then multifamily. And what would you say was the driving force that got you into multifamily instead of just scaling a lot of single family like most people tend to do? We really like the economies of scale of large multifamily. skipping the steps, we could see the stacking method while it does have a lot of benefits to a lot of people. And by stacking method, what I mean is going from like a duplex to a quad to an eight plex. That is definitely a method that a lot of people use. We wanted to jump head first, so to speak, into it because we saw the benefit of scaling faster sooner for us. And we had an opportunity to do so, especially with my construction background, there was a group that needed someone to manage a multi-million

dollar construction rehab to a large multifamily project. And it was a perfect parlay for me to jump in. Well, okay, so I want to talk about this. This is so important. So you mentioned the stack, right? And I talk about that a lot on webinars and on bigger pockets. And the idea being thinking exponentially or geometrically instead of linear, right? I'm going to buy a house. And then next year, I buy a house, next year by a house. And I'm always like encouraging people to think, think a little bit bigger. because what people do is they get stuck in this comfort zone. But what I love that you did, you kind of like, we'll call it stack hacking, right? Is you didn't go from a duplex to then a fourplex and wait a few years and then go to an eight unit.

You like just, you hacked that process very, very rapidly. And the way you did so was by harnessing other people's experience. In fact, I was sitting on my, like, Lanai, we call it, it's basically a front porch last night with my, I have two interns from the Bigger Pockets community who are out here working in Maui. And we talked about this for like an hour, this idea that, like, Like, should you just start with the multifamily, just jump right in and go buy a 50 unit or whatever. And my answer was like, one of them asked me that. And I said, the answer was, I don't think so because you have to learn all the mistakes along the way.

Unless you hack that and you harness somebody else's experience. So you did construction management, you said, for a larger project. Correct. What was that like? So it was about a $2 million rehab. And it involves building a building up from the ground up. there was a fire while we were under contract. So an entire building was wiped out. We had to. That's an interesting story. It's actually a good thing when that happened shockingly.

As long as everyone, of course, is okay. But we had that going into it along with a little over a million, $1.2 million value add plan. So we were in essence creating forced appreciation by renovating the property through both interior and exterior renovations and then increasing the rents because we obviously need to get the return on our investment. But to your point, Brandon, that's a really interesting question. And I don't think that there's a one-size-fits-all answer for it. I really think it's situational dependent. I think in our situation, my backgrounds growing up with a general contractor as a father, seeing single-family through multifamily construction, understanding how large-scale projects work, getting firsthand experience through smaller projects on both flipping, short-term

rentals, long-term rentals, and having that experience as a real estate investor and then partnering with very knowledgeable, experienced people who have their own genius and other core aspects of multifamily. I was able to leverage my skill and jump right into it a lot further along than maybe most people exercise. I think that's a really great point to highlight that, I think, So many people, I think Brandon and I see this a lot, you probably do to actually say, tell me what to do. I just want to go do it. And you recognize it doesn't work that way.

If it worked that way, everybody would already bought every house that's out there. This is a business like other businesses and you have to figure out what are you good at. What are you going to excel at? And I love that you said I took this road because that's how my mind and my opportunity is geared towards. That real estate investing can be just like everything else in life. What type of movies do you like? Well, we don't all like the same movies.

We have personalities. We have strengths. David, David, you and I like pretty much all the same movies, like step brothers, right? I mean, I would say probably 50% of the conversations, Brandon and I have,

are solely based on movie quotes. That's like our own language that we did. We just become best friends. So much room for activities. There you go. My husband is going to be so proud of me for that very comment that I just made. The rest of the interview could be terrible.

but he's going to be so pumped, I remember to quote. Yes, that's awesome. So I want everyone who's listening to just take comfort in the fact that if it doesn't feel right, maybe you're doing the wrong thing, that not all investing works exactly the same. And that's what makes this so cool, is investing is a combination of art and science mixed together. And the part you're talking about actually has to do with the art. Do you have any advice for people that are trying to figure out where would they fit in? What would their best road be?

I actually do some one-on-one coaching, and it's a very simplistic process that I follow for coaching. One is I ask people to start off by defining their perfect day. Two, is I look at how their business is structured. And three, I look at how those two things match. And then I readjust and align them, almost like a chiropractor, you know, like you want to make sure that they're standing correctly. And what I realize, every single person that I have coached, their perfect day does not match their business structure at all. And it's so crazy to me that I just make one simple adjustment and it's easy to see as an outsider when you're looking in and diagnosing someone else's situation.

Oh, if you just tweak this, you're going to be so much happier and you're going to be positioned to do so much better. And I make this one little tweak and then all of a sudden my students are having massive success and everyone's like, Ashley, you're such a good coach. And it's like, no, I'm not such a good coach. I'm just, you know, just fine-tuning little things that when you're in the trenches,

you can't see yourself. Yeah, that's just so important just to realize that, like, yeah, when we're in it, you can't see what you're doing that you don't say that,

which is why David and I are both big fans of having performance coaches and people that can go in there and just say, hey, you know, maybe tweet this a little bit. And I think that's fascinating that if you look at somebody's day

and then what they're doing, like that does tell you, like, there's a famous quote out there. I don't remember who said it, but basically like, show me your, calendar and I'll show you your future is basically the idea. Like your future is whatever you have on your calendar. And so so many people are saying, well, I really want to do this, whether it's lose

weight, improve my marriage, you know, buy a million dollars worth of a real estate. And then you look at their calendar and it's full of like, I don't know, watch Netflix and, you know, go to the dog groomer or whatever, like those things are. And so, you know, let's take that a little tangibly because I really like that. And I like the fact that you, you know, had experience working with people. Let's just say I'm a new investor. Maybe I've bought a couple properties here. I bought a duplex here, a couple single families, flipped a couple things. Just kind of, you know, getting, get my feet wet. I'm feeling pretty comfortable.

But I want to take it to kind of the next level. I want to get to that multifamily. I want to buy a 20 unit, 50 unit, whatever that is. And you and I sit down and I say, you know, Ashley, I've been struggling. You know, my ideal day is that, you know, I don't have my day job anymore. And that I really just want, you know, to work a few hours a day on kind of cool stuff with the multifamily. But just spend more time with my family. Like, how do I get there?

What kind of advice would you give to somebody in those shoes? Well, I look at where they are personally along their journey of life, because if you were coming at that situation and you are in your early 30s, I would have a different set of advice than if you were, say, like, in your 70s, right? because a lot of people have a different perspective on whether or not they should be looking for cash flow through wealth building or, you know, in wealth preservation or wealth preservation. And that's really two different concepts. So if you're looking to gain financial freedom through cash flow and more time with your family, that structure is going to look a lot different than if you are going out and you're still in wealth-building mindset a little bit more aggressively or a little bit more passively. So it really depends. So if you are in a situation where you want to

increase your cash flow, spend more time with your family, you're probably going to have to put in, and you're in your early 30s, you're probably going to have to put in a little bit more time into your future by doing it now. And that way you can coast later. So what I think is probably more advantageous for someone in that position is if they use the stacking method, in all honesty. That's what I think is probably more well-suited. When you go into a larger multifamily, unless you're doing a majority of the work by yourself, there isn't a lot of cash flow along the way on the general partnership side because a lot of it is paid out through your investors or the people who are investing in on the deal. So a lot of that gets diluted and you only see it

on the back end. So if you can't cover yourself for three to five years, that really isn't maybe the best strategy for you to pursue. But of course, it's the sexiest strategy. So people will say, oh, I just want to do large multifamily and not understand that it's a different beast and it achieves different goals. This is so important. I think I'm going to talk about this for a minute. So what you're basically saying is, and I'm going to put some words in your mouth here,

but make sure I'm getting this. Like there are ways to make, there's lots of ways to make money in real estate, right? There's tons of ways we've written billions of articles now, I'm sure, on the topic. And your new book covers a lot. lot of different women's strategies in that. But some of them make money now and some of them make money later on. For example, like, yeah, my open door capital, my mobile home park, you know, empire that I'm trying to build here or your, you know, multifamily empire, like you don't make a ton of like daily I can go spend it on whatever I want profit right now. And I don't take anything out right now because

it all is on the back end. But because of my position in my life where I'm out right now with my finances and everything else, I can afford to do that. And so I can take that next. thing where 20 years ago there's no way I could have done that or 15 years ago there's no way I would have done that I needed the cash flow I needed some kind of income coming in which is where David and I moved to well what are you going to do for income you got to do something so are you going to be a real estate agent are you going to buy just a bunch of little duplexes and manage them yourself that's income you know kind of what the path is like is that kind of what you're getting at here is there's like different ways to do it depending on where you're at

absolutely and I think too that there's no right or wrong strategy just because you look up to someone and you say I want to be where they are someday, that doesn't necessarily mean that you need to be where they are today because your personal situation might not match their personal situation. To the example you just gave on having the freedom to, with open door capital, you're not charging a lot of upfront fees and living off those upfront fees. The reason why is because you've structured your life. You were very disciplined, very early on. You use the stacking method and you position yourself to be able to use open door capital as a way for all of your investors to make money along the way. And then your reward is

on the back end. So that is personally, I always encourage investors to invest in deals like that because then you're motivated. Your interests are along the same lines as your personal investors. But also, too, you have a situation where, you know, your interest are able to be achieved because you were disciplined up front. Yeah, I think that's, that's important to realize, yeah, if you're going to go. And I'm not saying that, I mean, there are some, indicators out there who who make their living off of the fees and like they they pay the bills and you know that's I again it could work and there's nothing wrong with that necessarily but I like being yeah I like the fact that like my any fee that we do charge they basically to pay salaries for

the team and and the idea being like yeah I want to make I want to make I don't want to make a few thousand dollars right now a month off of fees I want to make millions later on and I want to make tens of millions for my investors like that's where I see and I think you do as well so I want to transition a little bit here and talk about the multifamily you've been getting into since last time you were here. Specifically, there's one that you did recently that I was kind of following along the whole journey and, you know, with you and your partners on that one. Can we dive in a little bit about the most recent one? I mean, we don't have to go specific line by line through it. But I guess walk us to that story. Like, what did you recently do? Absolutely. So we just

acquired 150 unit property in Houston, Texas in the Galleria area, which is an A class market. The building is one of the last remaining B class, if not the last remaining B class buildings in that market is the only mid-rise apartment in that area. So it's a long-winded story, so I'll try to keep it as short as possible. But ultimately, what you need to remember is that we looked for this property for about two years. And Jay Scott, he's one of our partners, too, on this property in general. He's one of our partners with Bardown Cap, or Bardown Investments, excuse me. He, him, myself, my husband, and we have a few other partners have been looking for two years. We identify which market we wanted to be into.

We looked at Houston. We loved Houston. We decided Houston's a good fit for what we were looking for. And we started diving in, meeting with the brokers, networking, and ultimately it landed us this deal. Now, we have looked at over 200 deals to get to this deal. So to try to put that in terms of your converting ratios, that is not what it looks like on the single family side where I can get a house for every seven offers I make.

So on the multifamily side, we made countless offers. and ultimately we landed on this property. We had it under contract pre-COVID. It went on hold due to actually lending, because a lot of lenders were on hold. They didn't know how they were going to lend what the requirements were going to look like, etc. And then we were able to put it back under contract,

and then it fell out of contract, which is a crazy story. And then we got it back under contract a third time. And then we finally closed on it September 16th. So we have had this property under contract since February to put it in perspective. That is a marathon. So what, I mean, what kind of lessons did you learn in putting this whole thing together? I mean, obviously two years looking for something big and you finally found something.

But what did you learn throughout the process? The first lesson I learned is right before we looked at this property, we tweaked how we were underwriting properties. So we analyzed our yields. We looked at how many properties we were doing a first pass, how many properties we were doing, a full detailed analysis, how many properties we gave a verbal offer to a broker and how many offers that led to us writing up the offer. When we analyzed our funnel, so to speak, and we made a few tweaks, we actually increased the percentage of verbal offers to actual write-up offers. It strengthened our offering process. That's the first lesson we learned.

The second lesson we learned is when we got the property under... So in my... multifamily, it's a two-stage process. You first get it under what's called letter of intent, and then after letter of intent or LOI, you get it under purchase and sale agreement. So during the letter of intent, because multifamily properties are so complicated to purchase, and they take a long time to structure the actual purchase and sale agreement, you were first under a letter of intent to purchase, which means there's an intent to purchase the property. It's non-binding. And during that process, while we were under a letter of intent, one of the reasons that it fell out of the contract is because letter intent are non-binding and they continue to

market the property and got it under contract with someone else, even though our letter of intent explicitly stated otherwise that they couldn't do it. So another lesson we learned is to tighten up our letter of intent. Yeah, well, LOIs are most people in the industry recognize that they're, they're not legally binding, but like industry-wide, we all kind of recognize, like, if you sign an LOI and we agree to it, we're moving forward. We're not going to be a jerk about it. But it does happen. I mean, I had one just a couple weeks ago. We had it under LOI. Like, everyone was good.

We were all good. And then they went and shop, got a better offer, dumped us. And it's like, ah, like, that sucks. But there's nothing you do about at that point. It's not a legally binding, like, offer. But that's how the game is played, I guess. Well, this is a really good. We should dig into this a little bit because what will often happen, and this happens with real estate agents all the time,

is we write an offer on your house at 750. And then you take that offer to someone else who wrote it at 720. And they write it, oh, well, we'll go 775 if you have 775 if you have 7. So it's a tricky scenario where sometimes when you just go out there and say, hey, I wrote an offer. I did my job. That can work against you in times, especially like right now where there's a lot of competition. So you mentioned that you guys are making some tweaks in your system. I'd love if you could share some of the things that you started off doing, what you learned,

and then how you've tweaked so that the listeners can get an idea for how this process works and how it kind of evolves to become successful. With the funnel process, what we tweaked is we were spending too much time on deals that didn't fit our criteria. So we tightened up our criteria to a T. I mean, I can, as soon as I get an email, it takes me now 15 seconds to say, delete pile or I'm going to send a follow up email as opposed to me looking at the property and saying, oh, maybe we can work with this and see how the numbers work. So eventually we end up canning the deal. That is so good. And because it's almost counterintuitive. You think I'm looking for a deal, and so I want to look for everything.

But the truth is, when you look for everything, you just focus on nothing and you are less good at underwriting all those big things. This applies, by the way, just if you're trying to buy your first property or your 100th property or a 500 unit versus a duplex down the street, like by tighten up your criteria and getting really good at one specific thing, it makes you a lot better. That said, like, how do you avoid, especially if you're new, if you're listening this right now and going, well, I'm just trying to buy that duplex. Like, you know, can I still look at a triplex? Like what would you say to somebody who's new in terms of how narrow should that criteria be when you're first getting started? When you first get started, I would say be as disciplined as possible and stay on the duplex. When you're further along, I would say duplex, triplex, quad, you know, to me it's kind of all the same. But when you're first getting started, if you really want to focus and be that detail focused on it,

not only does it help you to stay disciplined and then just have everything else pass you by so you don't get distracted, but it also, too, tells everyone who's bird dogging for you or, you know, brokering looking for you that, oh, this fits Ashley's criteria to a T. I know she's going to want this property. So they don't think of anyone else to send the deal to. They only think of me. That's another perk by being super focused. That is a great point. Yeah. I think a lot of people underestimate what I call in the book I'm writing for real estate agents. I'm referring to it as basically like owning the mind share in somebody's head. So when somebody thinks mobile home parks, they think Brandon.

When somebody thinks triplex, who do they think of? And you're making such a good point, Ashley. If you want people to get deals, you've got to plant seeds in their brain so that they think of you when that deal comes along. So that would be a question that everyone should ask themselves is when someone hears your name, what does that make them think of? So when someone here is my name or at least what I'm going to brokers and pitching to them is I'm not turned off by construction. I grew up in construction. So unlike other multifamily

operators who might be turned off by mold remediation, stucco remediation, vacancy, all of these different issues, a new roof, new mechanicals. I'm not turned off by those things because at the end of the day, it always translates to a number. And I am comfortable with tackling that project. I'm comfortable with floods, fires. I mean, you name it. I'm comfortable with it. So that's something that I've spent a lot of time going down to Houston networking with brokers and making sure. And I think because I'm a woman, it's very memorable too, because there's, first of all, and there's not a lot of women in multifamily space, but I don't know any other woman who's in construction management and multifamily.

So I use that to my advantage. Oh, that's so good. I want to talk about the woman investing thing in just a second. I know you were a book on it, but right before we get there, I want to point out, see, if you were to go to an average broker, and let's say an average, even multifamily broker or even let's say real estate agent, like on a residential side. And you were to say, yeah, what I'm looking for really is like a super cheap property

that doesn't need really hardly any work whatsoever. And I'm just looking for something I can just put a little bit of pain on it. And it's going to be worth a ton of money afterwards. they're going to just be like, okay, you know, so is everybody else, right? So what I love what you did is you're like, I found something difficult. You found something hard that most people don't like. And you chose to niche into that, which was like the thing that required more rehab. And so in other words, like you became good at a difficult task or a different difficult aspect of investing.

So like if you're trying to compete now, like as I built open door capital and I have a pretty big like, you know, reach to be able to find deals, we've gone after the nicer, nicer properties because I can compete with the bigger guys a little bit better. But if you're just getting started and you're competing against me and my team, you're like, this sounds arrogant, right? But you're going to lose.

Like, I'm going to beat you out because I have a better, I'm better at financing, I'm a bigger team. Most likely I'm going to beat you out nine times out of 10. However, if you were to go after mobile home parks with lagoons,

I hate lagoons. I ain't touching lagoons on a mobile. I won't even look at it. Like, I'm not saying they're the word, I'm not saying you can't get good at it, but that's not my expertise. So in other words, you take it up a notch and you go one harder than what an easy guy like me's looking for,

and you're going to dominate nine times out of 10 on me because now you're looking for something difficult. The same thing is true in a residential market. You're trying to find that duplex. Great. I'm looking for duplexes that are in flood zones. I'll take on a flood zone, let's say, because most people won't. And so find that thing that's difficult and make that your thing when you're getting started later on. Once you get good and you build your team and you get your systems down, now you can get into more broad things. David, what do you think? What Ashley's doing is she's combining being very crystal clear on her criteria with I'm solving someone else's problem.

And the marriage of those two things is what gets you the deal. Imagine an investor who says, you know, everyone's saying right now there's no deals out there. But imagine if you were the person that was known as I will buy properties that have tenants that need to be evicted. No one wants to touch that. If everyone thought of you when that came up, all these deals would be flying your way. And you'd get good at making relationships with lawyers, learning the law, figuring out how

to read people, when to do cash for keys? and when to go through an eviction. I think that's one of the reasons, actually, that you've scaled so rapidly and so successfully is you have an inherent understanding that this is not supposed to be easy. It's okay if it's hard. In fact, I target what's hard and I use what I have to my advantage. I think that that's, it's brilliant. I actually did the same thing on my single family.

When we first started out in single family, we noticed that we were not getting houses left and right and we couldn't figure out why. And one thing, so I partner with my father on the single family side. And one thing my father always wanted to be known for is good quality work. Good quality work comes at a cost. And in order for us to put our name and our brand behind the flips we were doing at the price point we were doing it at, we had to change our strategy. So how did we change our strategy? We went after historic homes that needed full gut rehabs. Those houses were not houses that flippers typically went after because the cost of capital was too high for them and the risk to go into a full got rehab to have that much capital out and exposed, you're open to market shifts. So in the single family side, we were successful because we did that. And on the multifamily side, we're mirroring the same kind of concept going after some difficult properties in great areas and hopefully becoming known within the industry because we are so focused on operations and construction

management that we stand out. And that way brokers think of us or sellers think of us when they're in need. So good. So good. All right. Before you move on, Brandon, let me ask you, what problem would you say that you, your companies are good at solving? Infill.

That's, I mean, that's that we went after. We went after, we want mobile home parks that are 30, 40% empty. Like, we purposely go after them because we like the, that strategy. And Maui, what we do for flipping. We want higher end stuff because they're hard. How do you go finance a $1.5 million house? That's tough for 90% of people can't do that. So that's the problem we want to solve is the higher.

end stuff. And we've done, we've done some lower end condos too. But yeah, what about you? Infill would be vacancy. Infill would basically. Yeah, and a mobile home park, infill means you're, yeah, you're 60% occupied, which means 40% of your units are empty. And we can, we can buy a home and move it in. And your competition is probably wealthy people that just want to throw their money and get a return and not do work. Yeah. So when they see vacancy, they go, oh, that's not what I want. There's no cash flow there. Yeah. And if you're below 80, if you're below 80%, you can't get good loans on it. Like, the loans are terrible when you get below 80% occupancy on a mobile home park or an apartment. And so I, so you're eliminating all the finance options just like now they have to go

cash buyers. Now you're cash buyers or some weird local community banks that are super high interest rates. And we just bake that all into our model and we got good at that specific thing. That's so good. I talk about that in the Burr book, how when you go for properties that won't qualify for financing, you're eliminating 80 to 90% more of the competition. You're doing the same strategy there. I think what I do in our business is that I target the clients who are buying real estate from a financial perspective, not the person who says, I just want someone who's going to find me the perfect kitchen and a yard where I can play ball with my son. Of course, we work with those people, but I look for the investors that are frustrated that says, I want a house hack, and I need

someone who knows how rehabs work or they run the numbers or they can find me a house that would work for house hacking, which makes it more difficult, but that's where the opportunity is. You know, this is probably some of the best advice we've ever given. The more we talk about this, Ashley, I think that you have seriously found like this vein of gold that I just want everyone to think about. What are you good at? What problem can you solve and then apply that to the opportunity that's out there? I always say that too for everyone who asked me, how do I get involved in multifamily and large multifamily? I say to them, well, are you, everyone's good at something. So let's say, for example, you're good at social media. Well, you find a really good operator,

owner, principal of multifamily, and you say, hey, let me run your multifamily social media accounts. Let me do your Instagram, your Facebook, et cetera. And in exchange, can you teach me about multifamily? And you can really leverage your skill set, whatever that is, whether it's marketing, accounting, I mean, really any skill set, and you can utilize it as the key to unlock the door to these partnerships. And that's what multifamily is. That's, I'm sure, you know, what mobile home parks and tails too because you guys have some large teams on that scale as well. But ultimately, if you can leverage your, if you know your genius and you leverage your genius, you can go very far. Yeah, it's so good. Drops the mic. I love it. For decades, real estate has been a cornerstone

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What's it about? And why is it so important right now for this book to be out there? The book is titled The Only Woman in the Room, Knowledge and Inspiration from 20 Women, Real Estate Investors. I actually came up with the idea at Dave Van Horn's Mid-Atlantic Summit when we were seated together, all the women at a lunch, Liz Faircloth and Andresa Goodelli, the co-founders of Investor, asked all the women in attendance to have lunch. And I sat at the table and I looked around the room and I said to myself, how are only 16 women seated at this table of an event of 450 people?

And that really was an aha moment for me. And on the drive home that night, I told my husband, I'm going to write a book called The Only Woman in the Room that was two years ago. And it's taken shape since then. And I've used it as an opportunity to really tap into women who have inspired me. And I thought they'd be excellent role models for our future generations, for women looking to get into real estate. And ultimately, I think that right now, more than ever, women need inspiration to using real estate as a vehicle for financial freedom. Women are outnumbering men in unemployment. Last month, September's unemployment numbers came in. 1.1 million people added to unemployment. 865,000 of them were women. Women are staying at home.

They're the primary caretakers. They're giving up their jobs. They're also the low-hanging fruit, so to speak, because they make 79 cents to a dollar for a man. So it's easier for a woman to give up their career for men. And ultimately, we were at, for pre-COVID, I believe the women made up 43% of the unemployment nationally. And now women make up 51% of the unemployment nationally. So this is being called a she session or a pink collar recession by economists all over the country. And they're forecasting that it's setting women's progression back 10 plus years. Real estate has been an excellent vehicle for us to pursue financial freedom. And I think women can look at this opportunity right now where they are, you know, no longer employed at their previous career and maybe use this

as an opportunity to educate themselves about real estate and propel them into a different field in real estate and get control over their life again. So good. So good. So tell us what in, in these stories and in the women that you know and that you work with and you talk with, you can consult with. What are like what separates those women? I mean, this is a question we can ask later, you know, in the famous four, but like what's different about the women who jump in? Why don't most women jump into real estate? Why are they not, why was it not 50-50 at that conference? And what do you see differently about those who actually jump into the game? That is an excellent question because that is what my chapter is about that I wrote about

in the book. And I have a theory about this. So, If you look historically, we know that women were the primary caretakers and they were not in the workforce. And then if you look back just a few years ago, women entered the workforce, but they entered it in limited capacity. So what do I mean by that? They only entered it in certain fields. If we all look at the mixture of men to women in STEM fields, we see a disproportionate amount of men compared to women. And I think personally that this is the reason why women are not in real estate. Ultimately, I think women are not encouraged to go into mathematics. And if we use this as an analogy for a house, mathematics is a foundation. Then because they don't have a solid foundation in

mathematics, they don't pursue finance. And finances the walls to the house, the structure. And ultimately, they never pursue investing, which is the roof to the house. So you can't pursue investing without structured walls, finance, and a foundation of mathematics. As we continue to encourage women to get into STEM fields and encourage them to have proficiency in mathematics and finance, they will naturally go into investing. And I think if we spend more time educating the younger generations about the importance of mathematics, science, engineering, technology, we are going to see more women enter this space as we're seeing, you know, firsthand right now. Yeah. So, good. Do you think the book is something that like, like, I mean, mostly men, I mean, again,

probably 75, 80% of people listen to this podcast right now are males. Is this something that we should be getting our wives? I'm saying, here, here's a book that you would think that would help you like understand what we're doing. Do you see a different purpose for it there? Like, I mean, what's your thoughts on that? A hundred percent. And the reason why is that women outlive men six to eight years. And during those six to eight years, it costs between 280 to $380,000 for, that woman to live during those latter years, that financial burden is shared by all. It's not shared by just women. It's shared by men too. And most of the time, it's family members. So ultimately, by having women get into real estate investing, they're taking more control over their financial

freedom. So by having your spouse, by having your sister, your mother, these are all opportunities that women can use, for example, self-directed IRAs to diversify their retirement strategies. I mean, as simplistic as that sounds, that is not happening. And disproportionately, when I speak to women versus men, women don't even know what a self-directed IRA is. Ashley, I want to ask you, in your experience with women and writing this book, what are some of the common objections that you found would come up when you would say, why don't you invest in real estate?

And either they weren't interested or they didn't take action. So when I raised capital for my first multifamily, I thought that I would have a really good chance at reaching out to women because, surprise, surprise, I'm a woman. I thought I could connect with women. I thought it would be really easy to reach out and say, you know, this is something that you might be interested in investing in. It diversifies your retirement strategy. It has tax benefits. I mean, we can get into that later. But the point is, I thought that I'd be able to connect with. them. Every single woman I spoke to said one of two answers. Flat out no or I need to speak with my husband. No other woman, no woman, period, asked me questions to dive into it deeper. But when I spoke to men, they either said yes, no, or let me think about it and I'll get back to you. No single man said to me, I need to speak to my wife first before I make a decision. I think whether they were, we're needing to speak with their wife or not, that's, you know, an argument for another's time.

But I think the point is, is that women feel a reliance on their spouse to help them with financial decisions when data has proven that women actually are better at investing than men and multiple studies across multiple generations. Demographics have continued to prove this fact. So I think the comfort of women getting into investing is, not there yet. And unfortunately, and I'm just going to be honest about this, and it's not something I'm proud of, but it's realistic. Once I started to notice this trend, what do you think I did? I shifted my outreach to men. I had a greater chance of getting a man to invest than I did a woman, and I had a short time frame in which I needed to raise capital. And ultimately, I had an objective

to fulfill, and who do you think got the short end of the stick? All the potential women who could have come into that space because I didn't have the time to educate women and bring them along and get them comfortable with investing. I needed to raise money for an opportunity to invest. So it perpetuates the problem. So I'm guilty of that too. But if we all don't take just baby steps along the way, bringing women to the table, whether it is your sister, your friend, co-worker, mother, it doesn't matter. If we don't all take this and bear this burden or this opportunity instead of looking at as a burden, but an opportunity to bring women to the table, then I think we're going to continue to see this problem perpetuate for years to come.

Do you have any advice for people listening when it comes to how they can share information about this the right way to present it? I think the right way to present anything is never to force feed someone something. You have to get them comfortable with the idea. So by inviting them to a free event, you know, making sure there's no charge, they don't feel like this is a pyramid club or it's a get rich quick scheme. You really want to show that you're truly invested in this person's well-being, their financial freedom and their future, and really speak to it a little bit at a time because it is overwhelming to digest everything. I mean, I've been in investing for over 10 years and I'm still learning something new every single day. So to think

that someone new to the table is going to be able to comprehend what someone like I know, you know, or learned over the past 10 years is just ridiculous. So just like almost spoon feeding a little bit of a time, making it fun and enjoyable, oh, hey, I'm going to this event tonight. You know, do you want to join me? It's about renovating houses, flipping houses, and there's going to be someone who talks about design and trends. So that might be interesting. I thought, you might want to join me with this and we can grab dinner and a drink together or whatever. You know, something to make it a little bit enjoyable. So dip your toes in the water kind of philosophy.

Yeah, that makes sense. Well, where can they get the book? Where do they get from Amazon and others? Yes, you can get it on Amazon. You can also get it on the real estate investor.com, but either of those two sources. Very cool. All right. Well, before we get out of here, I want to talk about one more talk.

topic and make sure we cover it today. And that is, you know, you've gone, you've transitioned from doing the short term rentals. You've done flips. You've done some smaller stuff. And then you went into the multifamily. I'm learning. Do you just have like any like just suggestions? Like what are like a couple of tips for people who are at the same point that you're, you were doing smaller stuff and saying, I want to go big. I want to go multifamily. What do I do? What would you tell somebody? Yeah. So I actually have a tip sheet that I can that I can give. Oh, cool. And that tip sheet walks through the steps that I personally use to get into large multifamily, but it really covers building your team, selecting a market, and then really fine-tuning what type of asset

you're looking for, you know, what we've spoke about earlier. And if you really focus on those three major points, it's pretty easy to make the transition. So whether or not you're building your team from the ground up or joining another team, it doesn't really matter. The point is that you really need to focus on the team component. The market, obviously, you can make money in any market, but knowing why you're in a particular market helps you with underwriting a property to understand what provisions you need to put in place. And then last but not least, being so detailed focused on the property that you want to seek, the more that you laser into it, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You'll find that property if you know exactly what you're looking for. That's so good. Yeah,

I mean, if you could put together like a, yeah, worksheet checklist, like whatever those things are. Like, we'll just throw out the show notes. Is that cool? Absolutely. No problem. Bigger pockets. Yeah, we'll put those you guys, by the way. If you want to go download that, I would encourage you to, because it's going to be awesome.

I can't wait to actually save myself. Biggerpockets.com. So, what is this? 412. So biggerpockets.com. So show 412. We'll put it right there in the show notes in a big section. So you can find it and download it there.

I think you'll, yeah, I think people will really appreciate that. So thank you. All right. Well, with that said, let's move on to the last. segment of our show. It's time for our Famous Four. All right, this is the part of the show where we ask the same four questions every week to every guest. But before we get to the Famous Four, let's hear from the Bigger Pockets Podcast Network to see what's going on on the other Bigger Pocket shows.

Hey guys, it's Felipe from the Real Estate Rookie Show. And last Wednesday, we had Ryan Chaw talk about student housing, how he has a full-time job and how he empowers his rent by the room strategy to his tenants so that they can take control. It's a an awesome show. Make sure you go back and listen. All right. With that said, let's get to the famous four. There's the same four questions every guest every week. So I know, Ashley, we threw at you a couple years ago when you're on the show, but we're going to do it again.

Maybe it's changed. So number one, other than your own now, what is your current favorite real estate related book? Current favorite real estate related book is, hmm, that's a good question. I would have to say, I really like Brian Burke's, a multifamily book. Yeah, hands off. Hands off. Yes.

Hand off real estate investor. I have it here. Yep. Yeah, it was fantastic. Really good. Fantastic. Brian Burke's incredible. What about it?

Did you like? I just like the fact that a lot of multifamily books are very high level, very glossed over. And Brian, he is a true expert in the industry. And he really hones in on the specifics on what someone should really be looking for. and calls it out, so to speak, because I think there's a lot in the multifamily space that's maybe not necessarily always on the up and up. So he truly has created this book to benefit all of the investors that really want a passive investment through knowledge and education, as opposed to just high level, easy to remember type of things about multifamily.

That's a great synopsis. And it's kind of Brian's personality too. He's like that. He's very, he's not surface level fluffy. He's a genuine person, really good guy. He's probably one of my favorite people that I've ever met through Bigger Pockets. Awesome dude. So he's incredible. What about your favorite business book? I have a lot of great business books, but one that I'm reading for a second time is traction. Yeah. So I really like that book a lot. But I mean, I could go on and on about a lot of different books that I've really enjoyed reading. Yeah. So I will go with traction for now. We have a traction like consultant, like an EOS consultant coming into our business here in a couple of weeks. We're doing like a

like completely yeah, really focusing in and I getting our entire systems and everything on traction like perfectly. So I'm I'm actually super excited about that, which is super nerdy to say. But no, I think it makes sense to that I'm so laser focused that that would be my, you know, favorite books. It just, it always keeps me not distracted. I think it's a good book for someone, you know, to stay hyper-focused. Yeah. That book is coming up a lot. A lot of people are mentioning it.

It seems like every single week someone talks about traction. That's funny. Okay. So what about some of your hobbies? I obviously enjoy spending time with my family and my kids. And then I compete with my horse, jumping. So I jump jumping. Which one of you jumps higher?

You are the horse when you're competing. I do. I do only because sometimes he unseats me. But yeah, so fun fact, I don't know if you guys know this or not, but I actually won the nation a few years back. Really? I did not know that. Yeah. In jumping.

So I have a new horse now and my goal next year is to win the nation with him. So right now, hopefully I'll finish out the year winning my region with him. But next year, I move up to a higher division. That's cool. What's horse is his name? his name's wow with an exclamation mark at the end i love it i want to name my i want to name my kid wow i always actually used to joke that i want to name my kid with an exclamation mark of their name because nobody does that but they should like my kid's name is wilder you know like instead of just

wilder yeah when they announce them they're like and entering the ring now is wow written by ashley wilson it like scares me every time that's fine next time you got to do a question mark of their name like just like the question of like Next in the competition is wow Every time Yeah this is my daughter My daughter Julie Yeah

We're totally doing question marks in name We're gonna make that a thing That would be so horrible for the kid To hear every time they hear their name Someone's unsure if that's actually their name What an identity crisis in the making Yep Who am I? Why does no one know?

I don't think better would be like a semi-cholid Because there's always something more It's like yeah A cliffhanger. Yeah, this is my son Wilder. And. Or and then. And that, yeah, there we go.

I like it. And then. Okay. All right. We are so off track here. Also, you had a tree come through your house today, right? That was. Yeah, I don't know if you just heard it, but it just fell again.

Oh, man. Do you have like a tornado or something? or like what's going on? No, nothing. It just fell. It crashed through two stories and part of the branch was hanging. And while you guys were asking the question, I didn't know if you could hear it because it just shook the entire house. So I didn't hear it.

But everyone's safe though. I'm going to assume otherwise you do not be here. I don't see anyone running around. It looks like there's a lot of people outside. So I'm hoping everyone's okay. All right. Well, we'll get you out of here in a second. I'll end this with laugh.

last question. What do you think separates successful real estate investors from those who give up, fail, or never get started? Determination. Last time I'd said that it was love, that they had to be, you know, passionate and love what they do. But I think the more determined you are your why, if you have a really strong why, that really drives you. That is the difference. Because people are more willing to take risks when they're very determined. I haven't met someone who has analysis, paralysis that I would describe as determined, you know, has that drive. They're kind of conflicting. So that's where I think people set themselves apart.

Awesome. Yeah. Okay. For people that want to find out more about you, where can they go, Ashley? You can find me on Instagram at Badash Investor. You can also find me online at badashinvestor.com. And that links to all of my websites. So you can just go there for simplicity.

That's clever. Bad ash. Yes, who helps me come up with that name, by the way. Who's that? Investor Girl Britt. Of course she did. Of course she did. The social media queen.

Yeah, she, we're on a race to 200. We were racing to 100,000 and I passed her up. And I was, we tracked meticulous. Like, this is how serious I take competition. It's like, I have my VA, like, in the Philippines, who's awesome, MJ. He's like working on, pretty much nothing but trying to beat Investor Girl Britt to 200,000. now. And like we were tracking every single week like how many she's getting, how many I'm getting. And like, we are very serious about this. Anyway, she, I passed her up and I was like, oh, it's over.

I'm totally going to win this. And all of a sudden she just took off and now it's just killing me. So anyway, everybody go unfollow investor go Brit right now and come follow me and stay. You know, as a public service announcement, I want to say, somebody just got followed by investor girl grit. So not every single page that you see is really us. I've got like six people. pretending to be me, I'm sure. Brandon and Ashley have the same thing. So like, don't go follow Investor Girl Grit. Make sure that the page that you're following is the right person.

That's really funny. That's funny. Anyway, I love your answer, though. Great answer. I tell that. Yeah, determination. It's huge. So, badass.

All right. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me as always. It's always fun spending time with you guys. Thank you. Pleasure. is ours. You brought a ton of value. This was a really good show. Thank you. And with that being said, this is David Green for Brandon. You're friends to ask her where, oh, no, we already did.

Never mind. Never mind. Ignore me. Say it again. Whatever. Ignore me. I thought you didn't ask her where people can connect with her at. But you did. That's where bad. Her answer was so smooth that it was just incorporated right into the conversation. You didn't notice it. But I don't mind at all. Where were we? Oh yeah. We're getting out of here because she's got to go find out who that tree fell on. So this is David Green for Brandon. Wow. Turner. enough. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com.

Your home for real estate investing online. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube. Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform, our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K, copywriting is by Calicoke content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant

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