BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 439: How Are You Marketing Yourself? with BiggerPockets Producer Kevin Leahy

Episode Date: January 31, 2021

Last week’s show with Marie Forleo was so good that Brandon and David are back with a special guest, BiggerPockets’ senior producer Kevin Leahy, to unpack all the wisdom from the “figureoutable” show. Kevin learnt about Marie Forleo though his wife suggesting he take some of her advice when transitioning into his current position at BiggerPockets. A simple trick from Marie helped Kevin make some big decisions: see if your body expands or contracts when you think about two different options. This trick, along with her insight on writing your options down in order to take a step back from your situation, has helped Kevin make some hard decisions. If you listened to last week’s show, you’ll remember that Marie touched on how important marketing is in any industry. Whether you’re a real estate agent, a buy and hold investor, or a flipper, you have to be marketing to get clients, deals, and even employees. How are you differentiating yourself in the market, and what can you do to be “that guy” or “that girl” in your specific industry? You’ll also hear a special tip on how Kevin lost a deal to another buyer, and the exact tactic that the other buyer used to get the property under contract. Kevin goes through why this is such a great tactic for making sellers comfortable and how you can deploy it in your future deals as well. In This Episode We Cover: How to stop trying to force square pegs into round holes The importance of taking a step back when assessing the situation Harnessing intense emotions to make a better game plan Why every business person NEEDS marketing in their industry How to differentiate yourself within a market Standing out to sellers to get more deals underway And So Much More! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Podcast BiggerPockets book store BiggerPockets Podcast 437: How Your “Worst Case Scenario” Can Set You Free From a Job You Hate with Marie Forleo Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/show439 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 439. Okay, what can I do with my mailer? What can I do on my website that just sets me apart a little bit? I don't have to completely reinvent the wheel, but how can I carve out something and be that go-to guy in my area? You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing,

without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the million of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everyone? It's Brandon Turner, host of the Bigger Pockets podcast, here with David Green in the C-Shed, again, because we literally just recorded two episodes in a row. It was last weeks with Marie Forleo and this week where we're going to talk about that

episode a little bit. David Green, what's up, man? Welcome to the C-Shed again. Thank you very much. I'm glad I got to be here. It's still raining also. Yes, it is. It's been raining this entire time, a week later.

We haven't been able to leave. Please send food. We're starving. It never rains here. I live in the desert, but it's been raining in the last couple of days. Anyway, so today, like we said, this show is going to unpack and really go in depth on a few different topics. First of all, we're going to talk a lot about this idea of everything is figureoutable,

meaning how can real estate investors apply this to their life of like figuring out asking how do I accomplish this, not can I accomplish this? When we talk about that? We also talk a bit about the idea of calling yourself a real estate investor if you're not one yet. If you're brand new, like how do you, do you fake it so you make it? We talk about that and or do you, you don't want to turn people off if you're brand new. So how do you build that credibility when you're young? We talk a lot about that. And then third, we're going to talk in depth about marketing, about some of the ways that you can stand out as a marketer. And when I say

marketing, I mean like, you know, whether you're buying properties, selling properties, trying to raise private capital, try to talk to people that give you money from a private lending standpoint, talking to hard money lenders, doing direct mail marketing. All of that is marketing. It's basically how to get your business going. It's the fuel that runs your business in every aspect. We talk a lot about that today's show. So that's kind of a roundup of today's show. But before we get to that, let's get to today's quick tip. All right, today's quick tip is very simple. And it's brought to you by our good friend and producer, Kevin, Kevin. Welcome to the show, man. What's your quick tip? And always be ready. Always be ready.

I was sitting here. I was sitting here. We finished this interview with Marie Forleo. I was kind of feeling really accomplished for booking such a big name on the show. I was planning out the rest of my holiday. And Brandon says, hey, why don't you join us for a little wrap-up here? Like, no, like, join us now. Do you even have a mic?

I don't have a mic, ironically. So I'm the producer whose audio sounds terrible. And all the guests who have been on the show who I've been really strict about their mics are going to get a laugh out of this. So, yeah, we literally gave Kevin. like a 30 second. You were like, I don't know, man. And I was like, we used the method from Marie is like, is the fear your GPS here that telling you to go towards it? And you did it and you cut, you crushed it today, Kevin. I hope so. We talk a lot about the basement guy. So stick

around for that. And, you know, I get a little vulnerable about my own business, uh, challenges here. Yeah. And we'll explain a little more in the, in the episode, who you are in in terms of like your real estate journey. And Kevin is just an awesome dude. We're honored to have you as a, you know, producer on this show, Kevin. So thank you for doing that and for joining us on this episode. Here's the thing about traveling. If you buy food at the airport, a burrito, salad, bag of peanuts,

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Lehi. Yeah. Like a Hawaiian, you have a lay. Like Yota Lehi. There it is. Kevin Leahy. That might actually stick as your brand from this point forward. It's Kevin Yodalaheehoo. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm going to kick myself for that one. Yeah. Kevin, you'll never let's remember that when he comes on next time. Every time. We're going to bring that up. I think it should be announced every time you do a show with a yodeler that actually

announces your presence. And I have to address in the traditional investments. Of course. Well, that's a given. Come on, Kevin. All right. Let's jump into this interview with Kevin as we unpack this show. All right.

Well, with that said, that was last week's show with Marie. If you guys did not listen to last week's show with Marie, it was phenomenal. It was episode number 437 with Marie Forleo. You don't have to have listened to that episode in order to listen to this one, though I definitely recommend it because we're going to unpack a few things she's said. Specifically, like I said, we're going to talk today about kind of marketing. We'll talk about faking it until you make it. and also a little bit about this concept of everything is figure outable.

So Kevin, thanks for joining us today. Thank you guys, kind of bringing me out of the shadows here. Yeah. So let's talk about this show real quick. So first of all, everything is figure outable. When I first heard that phrase, her book came out like a year ago or something like that. I heard it. And I was like, that's a cool phrase.

And then I never bought the book until like, I don't know, what, a month ago or whatever or a couple weeks ago when I knew she was going to come on the show. I was like, I got to read that book. So I read it. And Marie is very much, you guys don't notice if you look at our line, she's very much teaches mostly women. And the same way bigger pockets is like 80% male listeners. I think it is. Kevin, do you know what percentage is it still 70, 80%?

Yeah, it's about 80%. Okay, yeah. Hers is like opposite. So it's like 80% I think female. And so like it's not a book I naturally pick up. But I wasn't kidding. It really is one of those books. I will probably like recommend over and over.

It's kind of like the compound effect, not in the content, but in the fact that it's like this is like the ultimate. development book for like I could you could go read 20 different books or you could read everything is figure outable and it has all the things that I'd want you to go read in the other books. That makes sense? Yeah. So it's kind of like, yeah. It's like one ring to rule them all. One ring to bind them.

Yeah. Anyway, that's that's one book to bind them all. Anyway, but the phrase. Way to go handoff with your explanation here. Thank you. That beard's definitely influencing your speech here, your communication style. By the way, I was, I was somewhere yesterday and I said the line that somebody said you're late and I said, that was with me.

Oh, was it? Yeah. Yeah, you need to get it right. That's right. You are the one that screwed that up. I was like, Brandon is never late. He arrives precisely what he means to. And David had no idea what I was talking about. Kevin, do you know what I'm talking about? I assume it's a quote from Lord of the Rings. Gee, it's a quote from Lord of the Ring. You guys are not nerdy enough for this show. All right. Everything is figure aboutable. What are your thoughts on that? What came to mind when you heard that, David? First thing is that, it flies in the face of excuses. Because just everything is figure outable. If that's true, then when we tell ourselves things like, I, can't do this, then everything is figured out of all isn't true. So the first thing I really liked about it is that it forces you to analyze the belief system you currently have. Do you believe everything is figureoutable or do you believe that the system is rigged against you and you can't make it unless fill in the blank? The second thing I liked about it is that it's also an invitation to figure things out, to tinker with things, to try to pull them apart, look at how all the pieces fit together,

which I would say that everybody here speaking agrees, that's a healthier mindset to approach to something new. Is can I look and see how this all works together? Yeah. It's really good. And it's like it invites your mind to start working because it's a question. It leads to the question, how do I figure this out? Right. daughter-in-law who's for, right?

Rosie, I say, like, instead of saying, I can't do it, it's how do I do it? Like, I can't figure this how I can do. I tell the story once in a while of my daughter. She had this one of those blocks, you know, those blocks where, like, you put the shapes inside, and the shapes only fit a certain way. So you got to put the square peg in the round hole. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't work.

The square doesn't go in the round. You got the round, and this is like a year ago, and she's got this box, and she's trying to put this shape in the box, and it won't fit. And she's getting angry and anger, and I'm watching, you know, three at the time. So she's, like, super cute. and she's trying to put this thing in the box and she's getting angry and angry. She's like,

ah, she just takes it and throws it across the room. Like little three-year-old Rosie just screams and throws it. And it was just the perfect picture of like frustration of what we all go through with different things. And then she goes,

she takes like three deep breaths and she stomps over to it. She picks up this box and she takes the piece and she shoves it back in there. And this time she turns it a little bit and slides right it. It was the right piece.

It was actually just like she just had it turn wrong. It was like going in kind of diagonal. And so when I saw that, I just thought of this perfect picture of our life of like we are trying to push things in this box all the time. I want to get this real estate business going. I'm trying to start this whatever you're trying to do. I'm trying to lose weight. I'm trying to improve my marriage.

And I just keep pushing this piece and it's not going. And we want to throw it across the room. But sometimes it's just a little tweak. And it's asking the question, how do I make this fit? If it's figure outable, if we take that belief, it's figure outable. Now it's just a matter of twisting. And all of a sudden, the energy, like it's so much easier because now it's, We're not pushing.

We're just twisting a little bit. So the question I have for you guys is, is there, and everyone listening, is there an area of your life right now where you feel like you're pushing really, really hard on something and getting frustrated that it's not working? And really, maybe just needs a little tweak. Maybe you just need to take some deep breaths like Rosie did and take some tweaks. Kevin, I want to throw that at you. You may not have an area that you're struggling with right now in that.

Maybe you do. But I'm also wondering, where have you in your life used this idea of everything is figure outable? I think it, just like Rosie, when she threw the thing down, she wasn't detaching. from the problem that she was looking at. She was so wrapped up in it and so emotional about it. And that little moment of detachment, Jocko talks about that too, but that kind of stepping back. And what I really like about Marie and how I discovered her was through my wife who, you know, I was actually facing the decision about whether I should take the bigger pockets job or this other job.

The other job offer was actually real, Brandon. It wasn't just an engaging tactic with you. Okay, I didn't know. I wondered if you were just playing with me. Yeah, I don't think you bought you were buying it. It was real. And, you know, the bigger pockets one, now, of course, it looks great. But at the time, it was more risky. And the other one was a little bit more of a sure thing kind of mainstream. And my wife said, you know, I know this woman where Marie Forleo and she has this trick that she does whenever she's facing a big decision or feeling a little too close to something and has to make a high leverage decision. And what she does is she takes a step back and asks herself the question or writes it down. and says, does this, let me see how my body actually reacts to this. Does my body actually expand? And like, do I take a deep breath or do I contract and hunch my shoulders up and kind of feel like in a defensive crouch? And I did that. And I was like, man, that is so good because it takes, it brings you a step back from the thing that's making you emotional and you're swept up in it and allows you a little

bit of the attachment. And same thing with writing things down as she talked about in the show. I think it just gives you a little bit of perspective and allows you to kind of slow down and think about things. And so I think that's kind of, you know, in my own real estate investing business, I've done the thing where, you know, you send direct mail. You don't have a clear strategy. I've heard thousands of people on the podcast say you need to be consistent about direct mail. And somehow I think I'm going to be the one person who's different and send it once and get a reply, right? But a lot of times you just get wrapped up in that, oh man, everyone else is getting deals on social media, I'm not there yet. But if you take a step back and you think and you write it down,

okay, what have I done? How many pieces have I sent? How many people have I sent those two to three times to? What have I really said to them? If you just sit there and write all that down, it just doesn't look like a personal thing anymore. It's like your strategy hasn't been good enough or you haven't given it enough time. So I think that's kind of how I would apply today to a real estate investing example. So in other words, the reason you're here is because of Marie. We owe Marie everything. Absolutely. Thank you, Marie. Thank you, Marie, for the offer, for bringing Kevin to our life. All right, David, what do you think on that? Before we move on to the second kind of note in today. What I was thinking when this was being discussed is that intensity can be a red flag that you need to

slow down and detach. When you feel yourself with intense emotions trying to shove something in, what I think about is when your phone freezes and your screen is not responding, what we all do. We smash on it, right? Just even more. This isn't working. Let me do more of what doesn't work. Because there's a, I don't know where it comes from. There's a piece of us that just feels gratified by intensely trying to push through a problem. That's real quick. My dad, my dad, my mom and dad are visiting right now here in Hawaii. And my wife was just laughing at me yesterday or joking with me yesterday because she watched my dad try to answer his phone. And he grabs his phone and it's ringing and he can't press the button. It's not answering. It's like, it's not answer. It's not

And he says like just hitting his phone, smashing his phone until it stops ringing. Because they hang up finally or it goes to voicemail. And like he just, I'm like, all I want to do is like, dad, dad, we want to be like, dad, just slowly put your finger on the button and then slide it to answer. That's all you got to do. But it's pressing harder and harder. So anyway. And it would have taken detachment for him to see.

Correct. He had to pull himself out of it. There you go. So, you know, people are always going to have intense responses. Monitor yourself. And when you're feeling that emotion, say, okay, wait a minute. and I'm doing it. Let me take a step back. I've seen this a lot of time from new investors trying to force a deal that's not going to work. So I get the question of how do I make this seller

take my offer? What's the negotiating strategy that I can use to convince them to sell this to me for way less than asking price, even though they have seven other offers at asking price. And I just tell them you're working on the wrong deal. There's intensity is not going to get this thing solved. You need to step back, find a person in a different situation. So that's the advice I'd have for everybody here is when you find yourself, and responding with intensity. Remember Brandon's beautiful voice and Kevin's great example. Detach for a minute and ask yourself if this is the best tool to use to solve the problem. That's good. The second thing I wanted to pull up from today's interview was this idea of

calling yourself a business owner, in our case, a real estate investor before you actually are one. And I wanted to get your thoughts on this. Kevin, I know you're, you've started your real estate. By the way, you want to give like a 10 second background on your real estate real quick. What are you doing? And I'm going to answer the question. Like, what are your thoughts on that? Like, is it misrepresenting yourself to tell everyone you're a real estate investor? But first, let's give you a back. I give a little insight who you are. Yeah. So I kind of, I skipped straight to the rental property kind of phase of the real estate investing career. So I turned my property of residence into a rental, then bought a house hack. And so I do own three units in Washington, D.C., which is like nothing seems that given the values here. Yeah, but, but, you know, I had less confidence in can I go out and negotiate a deal? directly with someone in their living room, right? I kind of skipped over since I always had an

agent helping me with the title and escrow process and the contract side. Do I actually know how to do all the steps involved in writing up a contract and figuring out someone's pain point and figuring out ways around that? And so that's kind of the phase of investing I'm in where I'm trying to find off market deals. And, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot that comes with that that that you haven't done before. And so that's kind of right now the phase that I'm in is trying to figure out how to make a direct-to-seller business work. And so how do you feel about when you're talking to a seller, if you're going to reach out to them, like you're not, like if you were to say, yeah, I buy houses all over the D.C. area. Like that would be probably misrepresenting,

right? Because you don't buy them all over the day. So how do you, how do you cross-out lying, without misrepresenting yourself? How do you also communicate that you're somebody to be trusted as a real estate investor, even though you're just getting started? And I think it makes a first when I show up and they see that I look like I'm 16 years old. And James David talked about that on his show with us. Ned Robin and waiter and he said, dude, at the time, I looked like I was 12. And so it's hard to get people to take you seriously. But, you know, I think the authenticity, I think a lot of people are going to see through it if you're going out and saying we've been in this business so, you know, so long. We flipped this many houses. But I also think, you know,

if you're someone like me who's going out and looking at deals and you might either be doing a joint venture with someone because I don't have that much experience in renovations. Or you're possibly looking at wholesaling the deal. I think it's good to just come out and be honest about that and say, hey, I work with various investors who have cash that they want to deploy and they actually need to deploy and they need projects. And so I have various people. We may close in their name, but I'll put down this bigger and this money deposit so that you're secure. And so I think a lot of people get into wholesaling or trying to dig up deal. and they feel uneasy about that because they're like, well, I'm representing myself as this cash

buyer. They might know I don't have $600,000 sitting around. But if you just represent yourself as, hey, I'm involved in the real estate game. I have some rental properties. We're always looking for more. We work with other people who have flipping businesses. Joe Osamo is a guy that I could buy a deal with him. So why don't I just represent myself that way with the seller? And I think everyone knows that in businesses, there's a marketing side. I can say, hey, my partner handles the financing side. So I'll ask him about that, right? Instead of saying, yeah, I have the money myself. So yeah, I think it's, you know, being being open about that and kind of thinking to yourself from the other person's side, does it make any sense if I show up to them and I say, yeah, I have cash ready to go to buy a house

right now? I think their BS detector is going to start, you know, firing off a little bit if I do that. But if I said, hey, I work with investors. I go out and knock doors and get deals. that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're exactly right there. And that like if you're trying, they're going to read through your, if you're lying,

like, you know, I've got hundreds of thousand dollars in here. But if you're like honest, like I've got private lenders or I got partners or I'm a piece of the deal. Like they're going to be like, oh, okay, great. They want to solve their problem.

So they, I don't think they're going to care as much. David, what do you think on that? The fake it to you make it versus, you know, be honest. I'm not a fan of fake it to you make it.

I'm a fan of, uh, the truth well told. So, you explain to somebody what you're doing without ever lying, but that doesn't mean you just poorly throw it out there. Actually, I don't have any money at all. And I'm just praying that I can find someone that would buy your deal. And if they don't, sorry, man, but I'm not going to buy it. Yeah. Okay. What it really comes down to is how you communicate what you're looking to do,

honestly, which is what we talked about in today's show. Marketing. Yeah. Marketing is your ability to communicate. And I think that is the secret. And you said something when we got done that this doesn't talked about enough, but it's probably the most important skill anybody can have in any business. Yeah, I agree. And that's actually the third thing. Yeah, I wanted to talk about here today here at the ending is, is just that idea of marketing, being a marketer. A lot of people might have heard Marie say that and they're just thinking, well, Marie has an online business. She teaches people how to do online business. That doesn't apply to me. But like marketing is everything. Let me have an example of how I use marketing in my real estate. Like at a big level on a, oh yeah, and as a small

level and is a big level. But for example, so my fund, I have a real estate fund. We raise a lot of money. We buy mobile home parks, right? But if I just say I, you know, I've got a fun, I'm just like everybody else, right? So I had to ask, how do I communicate what my fund does better than other funds or other syndication project? How do I, how do I communicate that better? So I find ways to do that. I come up with new branding or new names or I find a special niche that I think we have a really unique angle at. That's what when I think marketing from real estate, that's what I'm talking about. The same thing could apply to, hey, I want to be a better marketer for my first duplex. okay, well, what does that mean?

Like, maybe you are, like, really good at, if you decide you want to be the duplex person in Cincinnati, great. So get really good at that. How do you market to people who own duplexes? Well, maybe that means going to, like, list source or going to one of the other one, the other one, prop stream, and getting a list of all the duplexes in Cincinnati and then writing a letter. What's that letter going to say? That's marketing.

How do you communicate your, the one that they should be talking to that they should buy from or sell to? It's really the same thing here. And that's what a marketing is. So I think marketing and communication is just so underused and talked about in real estate because we just think of real. For some reason, we don't think of real estate as a business, you know, like it's crazy. But it is a business. But why don't we think of it that way? because we call it investing. Yeah, that's, yeah. That's, it's a label. When you're buying stocks, you're not really running a business.

You're just pushing a button. And I think because a lot of people take that stock mentality into real estate, by the way. Have you noticed that? Yeah. That there's a lot to get into it that think that the goal is to buy low and sell high, which is how you make money with stocks, but it's not even, it's one way you make money with real estate.

It's probably not even the biggest one. Yeah. I think that's the problem is that. That's a really good point, David. I remember that before. I think that's where the virus comes from is that's, and then that's why people get frustrated with real estate too because it's not as easy as pushing a button to buy a stock. Yeah.

Like this comes up all the time. Stocks are real estate. And I hate this argument because it's always worded like which one will make you more money. But they're not apples and apples. Stocks are a lot easier. There's a lot less that you're doing. You can get a lower return in stocks and it still could make sense because you're not

doing all the work. Real estate has more work going into it. So that's one of the reasons that you and I have been slowly, subtly working in business into real estate because we want people to start thinking of themselves. as a business owner and identifying as a business owner instead of a passive investor, which is why we're bringing on people like Ed Milette and Marie Forleo and like these guests that are coming on the weekend shows because like this is a trade. This is what you need to succeed long term at the business of real estate as you need to understand these concepts. Kevin,

what do you think on this whole idea of marketing? Like how do you use this in your business? How do you see people using it correctly? Well, first of all, I love bringing great marketers on the show because there's this moment on the show where they say, okay, I have this concept and I like to call it. And I can see Brandon and his face starting to get jealous because he didn't think of that phrase. And that happened with Marie today, right? Brandon goes, everything is figured outable.

I love this concept, but I can see the jealousy on his face. If you wanted to get to these phrases first, right? So, you know, I think once you turn on this, we talk about the reticular activating system, and how if you're looking for to buy a truck, you see trucks everywhere. I think once you turn this on, you will see it everywhere with any kind of marketing. I was walking to the mailbox the other day, and I saw a truck with a contractor and it said the basement guy. And it just had a picture of his face. That was all. There was no like fancy branding or anything like that. But I was like,

he's the basement guy. And now like in my mind, he has associated himself with basements and all the properties out here in DC casements. And he probably deals with moisture and probably does pretty he dang well for himself with his little business out of his F-150. So I think once you start noticing that marketing stuff, like on the business podcast, the bigger pocket business podcast number three, we had Brent Underwood, who's a fantastic marketer, Brandon, you're friends with him. Probably one of the best marketers on the planet. He's awesome.

And he does little things like he has a hostel that he runs in Austin. But I guarantee you he asked himself, how can we be different from all the other hostels in Austin? And he got a goat. and the goat, you know, choose the grass on the property. And there's probably all kinds of tax benefits and stuff that come with that. But also, everyone probably takes selfies with the goat that stays at his place and then post them online.

And he's the goat postal guy. And so once you start seeing those things, you can think to yourself, okay, what can I do with my mailer? What can I do on my website that just sets me apart a little bit? I don't have to completely reinvent the wheel, but how can I carve out something and be that go-to guy in my area? Do you remember Tucker Merahue back the first time we had in the show? He had his dog.

His mailer was like whatever his dog's name was. I don't know, Chief or something like that. Chief buys houses. And it was like this big mastiff. I think it was like that was the postcard was his dog. And I think he even said that he would choose the areas of Portland where people are really into dogs. And he would use that marketing there, you know. And that's just taking that extra step to think about what the person on the other side of that marketing piece.

I'm spending two bucks on the piece. isn't it worth spending a little time thinking what's going to stand out to them and what's going to stick in their mind because they're not going to probably be ready to buy their house to sell their house the first time they received a letter? Yeah, that's really good. Wouldn't it be great if your house plants paid rent while you were out of town?

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I didn't remember who the person was or what they were doing. But it was something that like selling some product. And we were talking about like, how do you differentiate yourself to sell that? And real estate is very similar. There's a lot of people trying to buy houses right now. We are a commodity business in a way in that like if I was a motivated seller, I could sell to you or I could sell to you know, David.

I sold to Kevin. I could sell one of the listeners on the show. There's anybody could solve my problem probably. Just like if I was going to buy a toothbrush. There's 100 companies that can sell me a toothbrush. So how do you differentiate yourself? And I came about with a couple of thoughts. One, think of Bulletproof coffee.

So Bulletproof coffee is an example of marketing in which, if you're not familiar with bulletproof. Bulletproof is a type of coffee where you add coffee with like grass fed butter, was it MCT oil or MTC oil, whatever it is, like the oil. It's basically coconut type oil. And then there's like, there's something else you do to it. Anyway, the point being like, it's like just like a formula of like three things you add to your coffee. It's supposed to make you more awake and aware. It's got more fat content with the butter. But Bulletproof was like the guy Dave Asprey, I think is his name.

Like he basically created this new thing, which was like butter with, I'm sorry, coffee with like fat in it. Then he labels it as like bulletproof coffee as a thing. And then who are you going to buy your coffee through? Well, I'm going to buy it through Bulletproof coffee companies. In other words, he created a category. This is where I'm getting out with this. He created a brand new category and then happened to fulfill that category. So that's one really good way of marketing.

I did that in a way with my fund is we created a cash growth fund. It's a growth that like, I mean, I don't need to go into it. But basically, we have a different, like, we created a brand new type of real estate fund. And then I'm, I'm the only guy that does that. Now, in reality, it's, yes, there's a spin to it. And yes, there's other funds that are great. But our unique thing, that's we created the category. But another way to do it would be like Tom's shoes.

So what did Tom's do? Tom's does buy a pair of shoes. Give up, they give a pair of shoes to somebody in need. Like, oh, you know, in a country where they don't have shoes. Like, so in other words, shoes are a commodity. You can buy shoes from anybody. They're all over. You can go to Walmart, Target and buy shoes.

is why would you buy from Tom's? Because now you're doing something good. People want to do good for the world. So that's another way that you can differentiate your product is by, like, how can you make them feel better? It's kind of the Simon Seneca start with why. Like they want to buy, they don't want to buy what you have. They want to buy why you have it.

I've heard that phrase before. And then sometimes it's just the cheapest option. Like can you get people the best deal ever? Like some people are really good at like, this is just either a superior product or the cheapest product. So really there's four things in this framework, right? The best product you're offering. So you can offer a.

or the best price or you can sell a house that's better than every other house in the market. There's the cheapest option. I can give a better deal than anything else. I can, you know, whatever that is, I don't know if we're buying a property. And then there's the category section, being a category, you create your own. And then there's, I don't know, whatever I just mentioned. Whatever was. Those are those like the four of like how to differentiate yourself. So anyway, this is a thought that's been in my head. I've been trying to like put that into a framework. What do you think on that? I think this is why you're the best marketer that I just came up with all of that on the fly. Well, thanks. It's been in my head for a long time, much longer than it should

have. So thank you. Yeah, you're absolutely right. You do, you do have to differentiate yourself, but I probably want to highlight it doesn't have to be something radical. I agree. It doesn't have to be, I'm the goat person, right? Like, I think I did that with my real estate team by saying, we are real estate agents that help that think like investors. So we approach this from a perspective of I am protecting your income and helping build you wealth through real estate, which was different than I'm the local blank expert or I hold your hand better than everyone else. We said, no, what we're good at doing is making you money through real estate. That's what we're going to help with. And then I built a team around that because that's what the needs. But what you did there and you may not even

notice that you did it is you implied everyone else, all those other agents out there, they are not going to make you money. Well, that's exactly right. And they're not. We're going to make you money. We're the only ones that can make you money. And I would even say that that fits in the category. I think. We are a category that's unique in this area and that we are investor agents that understand investing. And there's a category. And you need a name for it. Like, you know, we are a, we are in, you know, green investors. And it's investors who understand. A bunch of greenies. Yeah, a bunch of, we're a bunch of greenies. Yeah. Like, when you put a name to it, now you're bulletproof coffee. You invented a brand new thing.

And not that you're the only one in the world doing it, but to the client that you're talking with. In my world, I'm probably, in your world, you're the only one. That's the secret. Like when someone wants to sell their house, I'm saying, listen, we're going to do it this way. because this is going to get net you the very most you could possibly get. I'm not going to be the cheapest one. I'm going to be the best one. But in that world, I'm the basement guy for those people. And that's really what you have to do to be successful at whatever business that you're starting is your sphere of people. Those that follow you, those that know you, have to see you as boardwalk and park place on the monopoly board.

You own the real estate of that thing that they're looking at. And what Kevin is getting into is he's trying to figure out, well, I want to buy houses in Washington, D.C. How do I differentiate myself from the other buyers? He's starting that process of going down that road. And Kevin, at a certain point, you're going to hit it. You're going to pick up traction and boom, you're going to be picking up lots of properties. And I think it's such a good point that it doesn't have to be a extreme thing, right? It doesn't have to be, we'll buy your house and we'll donate to this charity.

Like Tom's. Like Tom's was like a radical idea. But I thought of kind of a couple subtle ones, which like, I know David, a lot of times, if you're choosing between giving someone, there's a seller, right? And they've named their price and you're representing your client. and you're either going to give the full price offer and write that offer, but then you're going to ask for some concessions in closing, like help with closing costs.

That seller feels so much better about selling you their house at the full price and getting that full price from you than doing it the other way around. Let me undercut you by $5,000 and then pay the full closing costs. I think that's interesting to think about when you're dealing with directly with homeowners, too, is like there's a guy named Jerry Green. I think he's in Ohio, and I heard him on a podcast. he talked about how he always would do the standard thing of set an appointment, go to the appointment, walk through the house, point out things that might be wrong with the house,

then give an offer. Then he switched it and starting giving an offer on the phone and then sending a professional inspector to the house afterward. And I think it's just a psychological thing with sellers where they like that surety of having the offer over the phone, And even if later you're going to ask them for some concessions on the price because you didn't see it. And so I think for him, like, that was a small thing that kind of exploded his business. Not saying it's going to work in every market. It might not work in my market. But it's basically the same steps just in different order.

You know, my brother recently was talking to me because he got a real estate license now. He's talking about becoming an agent. And he was saying, like, how do I, though, differentiate myself? Because I don't have any experience. I've never done any deals. I'm curious if your answer on this one. And this does apply to real estate investors as well. also keep listening if you're an addict, you don't care about agency. But he said, how do I differentiate

myself? And I said, well, you don't have the experience. You can't pull that card and be like, well, I'm those experienced agents. So what can you do? Well, if you don't have any clients right now, it means you got 24 hours a day that you can serve those people. So I was like, I would honestly make a guarantee and brand it with something. It's called the 10 minute guarantee. I will return your phone call in 10 minutes 24-7, guaranteed. Or I'm going to pay you $100 gift card to wherever restaurant you want or something like that, right? So like, I guarantee you, because What's one of the biggest frustrations people have with agents is I can't get a hold of my agent in time. But if you were like, I 24-7, test me at you call me at three in the morning and I don't care.

I will return your call in 10 minutes or less, guaranteed or I'll give you $100. And like that would make me want to work with an agent. Like if I was something like, oh yeah, he owns the category of that. Like that's a special thing no one else has ever done. And so if you don't have the experience in a business you're going to start, what do you have? Your lack of experience you can make up for in the amount of time. If you promise a guarantee like that, that will mean the world to people. Especially to those who have dealt with frustration that people aren't calling them back.

Someone like me that might not expect you to, that wouldn't go that really far. But if you're like, oh, I'm pushing this square peg in this round hole, they won't answer their phone. I'm so sick of it. When you see that boom, it's going to draw you right there. So imagine him, not that he would do this, but imagine getting a billboard on the highway. It just says, we guarantee to call you back in 10 minutes or less or we'll pay you $100. The responsive realtor. The responsive realtor, right? Yeah, and you put that on the thing. Guaranteed callback in 10 minutes or else. Or we can show you any home in 30 seconds or 30 minutes or less or whatever that thing is, right? Like, yeah, 90% of people won't care about that they haven't had that pain point of struggling with an agent that won't come back. But thousands of people in an area have had that pain point. So you can become the basement guy to those people. And that's how you market to those people. And so whether it's real estate, you're investing, you're building a business, you're an appraiser. It doesn't matter. What can you do that set yourself out? And then how you

you show that is what really Maria is getting out with marketing. So we can do a whole show on marketing. This is cool. I mean, the next level is you can even back into what are those things that are frustrated in my client. And you can go on bigger pockets forums and type in agent, you know,

frustrated or something like that and see what people are saying. And then tune into those, you know, find whatever forum is going to, and use that exact language, right? Are you tired of your agent never picking up your call? There's this guy named like Dane something or another. I can't remember what.

I heard him on a smart passive income podcast like 10 years ago probably. He did an episode with Pat. And he had a thing called the foundation. I don't even think it exists anymore. But their whole model of building online businesses was to go to an industry and then just dig, not you don't have to be in the industry, but just dig in what's your problem, what's your problem? And like you find what their problem is. So like, for example, you go with the dental world and you go and talk to dental hygienists and say,

what is your problem? You really dig an interview a dozen of them or two dozen of them and really, find out what they're struggling with. And then you go create a product just for them. And then that, that idea is like, you're solving a problem. And I always love that. That was one of the better podcast I think I've ever listened to because it was so like, yes, like this is so good. So if you're, how it applies to real estate, I would say, yeah, what are the problems that if you're trying to buy from a motivated seller? What are the problems they have? What are the things that they get frustrated with? And for example, in mobile home parks right now, the biggest problem that sellers have is people

not being able to get financing. Okay. So we just offer all cash. Like we, we raised enough money that we can offer all cash. And then we just burr the properties. We immediately go and refinance them with the lender after we buy them. But we are offering all cash on properties because that is one way that we stand out. Because that was a problem. We just kept hearing over and over was that because of COVID, all these sellers were getting jerked around because they thought they could close and they really couldn't. So anyway, again, asking what's the problem that your customers are having or that potential

customers are having? It's just such good business. If I could boil down what is an entrepreneur, it's a professional problem solver. Yeah. Like, I'll just give you a couple examples. I found out last week, the mortgage company I started has been in business for about six months now. We're in the top 100 loan originators in the country and our six month of business. Wow. That's crazy.

And if you probably want, what's the question you're wondering? How'd you do that? How'd you do that, right? I asked every loan officer I knew, what slows you down? What's your biggest problem? What would you guess that they said? Paperwork. Yeah, really close.

It's collecting documentation from the borrowers who don't want to do it. Then I went to borrowers and I said, what's the worst part of the loan process, having to give all my paperwork, having to take the time to do all the stuff when I don't know if I'm getting an answer. Then I went to people and I said, hey, you're a loan officer. What is your biggest struggle as a new one? I don't have anyone to teach me what to do. I have to figure this out on my own. And I just came up with a system that solved all three of those problems. We are going to take junior loan officers. They're studying to get licensed or they are licensed. Teach them ways to successfully get documentation from the borrower by communicating very clearly why it's so much. important and making it easier. By doing that, they made themselves very valuable. They got a job. They supported the senior loan officer who knew what to do once they had the paperwork. That one little solution that I came up with that fixed all three people, boom, the pipeline flooded.

And I'm just using this as an example that this is how every single business owner should approach every single thing that they have. What's your problem? I don't have enough people coming to me asking me to fix up their basement. Okay, do you think people know that you do basements? No. why don't you brand your F-150 with basement guy. Now he's going to have another problem, right? I'm growing too fast. I need people to work with me. Well, how are we going to solve that problem?

There's people that need to work that need to learn the business. They don't know it yet. Come up with an apprenticeship model. That's all entrepreneurs are doing. And real estate is a form of that. And we're just giving these examples so other people can kind of take what I did, apply it to their situation, apply it to their scenario and understand. Be grateful for problems.

That's what creates opportunity. Entrepreneurs solve problems. Don't, when you throw the thing across the room like Rosie did, go pick it up and look at it from a different angle and say, how do I solve this problem as opposed to I don't want to deal with problems? How do I make money without it? Kevin, any thoughts on that? Last closing thought here, which is a good one for real estate investors. I lost out on a huge deal to one other person. And price was not the problem. And I wound up finding out from the seller like what the difference was, which. which is a great thing to do, super painful to do. And I, you know, I was aware of both problems that she had, but I just didn't come up with a good solution to solve them, whereas the guy who beat me out put an addendum to the contract saying two things. Number one, I'll pay for your moving

services with a local company. That's an easy one that I just kind of overlooked. That was her one pain point. The other pain point was she had to talk to one more person, which is a classic thing, hey, I'm ready with this price, but I just need to run it by my stepmom. She had to do that. For me, I said, okay, cool, let's talk tomorrow. For him, he said, let's sign this contract. You can cancel a contract in 48 hours if you want to for any reason whatsoever. That's really good. And, you know, what happened is he got the signature on the paper. She must have checked with her and it was okay. And then there you go. So that's just a perfect example in stark terms and a painful. lesson of really seek out those problems and then think hard about is there something that I don't

know how to do to solve that problem and you know can I conjure that up in the moment that's really good that one tip probably is going to make a lot of people a lot of money just getting let's get the contract sign you can cancel in 48 hours I love that it's it's like because people are much less likely to cancel yep that's why I like the whole like free trial just dollar free trial just give us your credit card number just got to cancel within 30 days not a big deal so true you know what else uses this technique very well who's that you when you're writing You are a better writer than me because I just give people information. You pull them in by giving one sentence at a time that creates more and more interest.

You get them committed to reading it and then they actually read it. And you do more good for people because they get the spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. Whereas mine's so dry, I don't think people read my content as much as yours. So that just is an example, right? This principle works in many, many different things. I can see like you want to get somebody into working out going to the gym more often. Hey, just come with me. Just spot me when we're here. Yeah. Right? You want to get someone into jiu jutsu? Hey, let's just like wrestle around for 10 minutes.

I'll just show you some easy stuff. Like you get them, it's committing to tiny little pieces and move them forward. I know they call this the puppy dog clothes and negotiations. I've read that in a couple different negotiation books because they, or the pet stop, pet shop clothes. Anyway, the idea being you're at a pet shop and they're like, just take the dog home for the weekend. Like just bring them back on Monday if you're not into it. Not a big deal. No one brings the puppy back in on Monday. Like you just, you don't do that. That's not a thing. Right? Once it's in your house, you fall in with it. So the more you can get people like, yeah, take the puppy home for the weekend, the significantly higher chance you have of getting them to convert to whatever it is you're trying

to do, whether they're trying to buy a property, sell a property, whatever. Yeah, that's, that's good, Kevin. Look at Kevin bringing gold today. We'll have to get that guy in the show. I'll grill him on the show. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, the guy who beat you out. Love it. All right, guys. Well, this has been a fun kind of wrap up. And yeah, this has been really cool. So thank you for joining us. Kevin. We'll have to do this more often. I like you joining us. Thank you. Can I take us out? Please do. For Brandon Turner and David Green. Oh, I screwed it up. Leave that in there. Leave that in there. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing,

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