BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 445: When to Quit Your Job and Pursue Your Dreams with Rapper Manafest

Episode Date: February 21, 2021

The BiggerPockets podcast has quite a diverse group of guests that come on the show. We’ve had writers, speakers, businesspeople, and actors, but this may be the first rapper we’ve had with us.��Chris Greenwood AKA Manafest is in the studio, and instead of recording beats, he’s recording the best lessons he’s learned through his music career, real estate investing, and online business. Chris started out like many of us, working a stable job for a large corporation. After years of doing music on the side while working his full time job, he decided to take the jump and make rapping and rocking his career. Chris is the first to admit that this may not have been the best financial decision, and staying on the job for a little while longer could have relieved him of a lot of headaches. That being said, Chris didn’t just survive, he actually thrived in the music scene. When Chris and his wife decided to move out of their condo to upgrade to a larger home, they brought up the idea of renting out the condo instead of selling. This opened Chris up to the world of real estate investing, and as he saw the checks start to come in, he realized that this was a money maker that could help bring in stable income, passively while he worked on his music. Now Chris owns various properties and mainly buys from turnkey companies. Brandon, David, and Chris all have their own opinions on turnkey real estate investing, but they all agree on one thing: for those that don’t have much time to be an active investor, it’s a great way to start or stack up rental properties. Aside from rentals and rapping, Chris developed his own online course to teach other musicians how to successfully market their music in an industry that has such a high barrier to entry. Chris talks through how he separated himself from all the other “course gurus” and how you too can serve as an authoritative figure in your own community with knowledge, experience, and perseverance. In This Episode We Cover: How Manafest got his start in music (and why he made the jump to full time) The struggles and benefits of working a full-time job and pursuing your dreams Renting your primary residence instead of selling when you move out Not getting sucked into the “you’ll have to fix toilets” fear of real estate investing  Turnkey rentals and why they may (or may not) work for your investing strategy Having the drive to help people before you ask for money or a sale Chris’s book From Red to Black And So Much More! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Podcast BiggerPockets book store Manafest Website Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/show445 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 445. It's not just the idea. It's an idea acted upon that is the powerful thing, you know. And that's another thing. Successful people don't procrastinate. They take massive action. Well, the people take action. You know, they don't just think about it.

You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure. to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everyone? It's Brendan Turner, host of the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host,

Mr. David Green. David, how is the Maui condo search going? I know you're looking for something. Yes, it's been fruitful. I got to meet with Josh Dorkin, actually. We had a good little talk walking around Hawaii, and I put one place under contract. I have a couple more. I'm closing in on number two. And then there's a whole other complex I'm going to start looking at. So I'm going in Hawaii a lot more it looks like. Fancy, fancy, fancy. I'm looking forward to having you out here more because we, uh, I really enjoyed doing the podcast with you in person. I mean, obviously right now we're on Zoom, this is great. But man, in person, it's a lot of fun. But, uh, even if we only get to do it on Zoom, we still get amazing guests like today's guest, like that transition. Very nice. Today's

guest is a buddy of mine who when I first met him, I was like total fan girl in because he is a musician that I actually listen to quite a bit. So he is a, I would call it hip hop slash rock. He's got several kind of genres that he does. His stage name is Manifest, M-A-F-E-S-T, Manifest. Been hard him on the radio many, many times. He's worked with a lot of big other artists. Anyway, super cool guy.

And I met him because he was at a real estate event that my buddy Seth put on down in Tennessee. And so we got to talk in. And then after like an hour long conversation, I figured out who he was. And then I was like, what? Anyway, so now here we are two years later, and I've been begging him to come on the show to talk, and he finally came on the Bigger Pockets podcast to the Bigger Pockets podcast. That's how her name right? I think I did. To share. I guess I'm still in Fangirl mode. Enough talking from me, David. Yeah, today's show. It was fun. Chris does a lot of good for other musicians. That's one of the reasons we wanted to bring him on is he's really figured out how to solve the problem of musicians not being able to earn revenue from other income streams. And he's also very good. at teaching. He does some online work where he shows people how to do stuff. And big surprise, he invested real estate. So we got a lot of really good mindset stuff, a lot of really good business stuff and some good real estate advice, specifically when it comes to turngevers,

not turnkey or cash flow versus equity. I thought that there were some good content there. Yeah, really good stuff there. So I'm pumped to get into it. But before we get there, let's get to today's quick tip. So one of the topics we spent some time on today was knowing your highest and best use when it comes to invest in real estate. Meaning, I mean, like, Chris makes a lot of money as a musician, also in online education space. And so, like, his way of investing is very different than what maybe mine was at the beginning. When I didn't make any money, I was working at a, you know, Coldstone Creamery in the very beginning. And so the way to it.

So what the quick tip today is ask yourself, are you currently focusing on your highest and best real estate use? That's the question I have for you. And if you're, if, and if you don't know what that means, listen today's show. You'll figure that out. But that would be my quick tip. And then you want to add to that. good question for anything in life. In your business, are you at your highest and best use? In your relationship, are you at your highest and best use? I know this year I'm planning on

putting some money into Brandon's fund as well as a couple others because I don't have enough time to look for deal specifically for myself and I'm going to make money through your work. So thank you for offering me that. But that's a great example of how to use your highest and best use. Yeah, exactly. Some people should be out there like pounding the pavement going door knocking. Some people should be sitting there putting their money with somebody else. Some people should be buying turnkey. Some people should be investing in a reet. Some people should be only doing the stock market, not even touch in real estate. Everyone's got a different path. Only you can know yours. So the quick tip is to figure out what your path is. And today's show should help with that a little

bit. Do you ever notice how every passive investment somehow turns into a very active lifestyle, active spreadsheets, active phone calls, active stress? Here's a better question. What if you could buy brand new construction homes, 10% below market value in the best markets across the country, without making real estate your second job. That's exactly what rent to retirement does. They're a full-service, turnkey investment company, handling everything for you. In some cases, investors get 50 to 75% of our down payment back at closing,

plus interest rates as low as 3.75%. They've partnered with BiggerPockets for over a decade, helping thousands invest smarter. If you want to do the same, visit BiggerPockets.com slash retirement to learn more. We all joke that rentals are passive, but if you're spending nights matching receipts or guessing what a property earned last month, that's not passive at all. Baselane fixes that part of landlording, the financial chaos.

Their banking and AI bookkeeping system automatically tags every transaction, updates cash flow insights in real time, and builds the reports you need for tax season. You can even automate transfers and move money around without paying wire fees. It's just cleaner. Sign up at baselane.com slash BP and get a $100 bonus. Baselane is a financial technology company and not a bank. Banking services provided by Threadbank, member FDIC. Managing properties can feel like a full-on circus.

You're juggling vendors, tracking payments, chasing approvals across multiple properties, and maybe a few HOAs, all while trying to keep tenants happy and owners confident. One delay can throw everything off, and suddenly your day is all clean up, no progress. That's why hundreds of property managers rely on bill to streamline their finances. Bill for property management lets you add all your properties, assign permissions, pay bills, and receive payments quickly and efficiently without the usual bottlenecks. It syncs with platforms like QuickBooks,

Zero, NetSuite, and Sage intact, so your accounting stays aligned. You can automate bulk payments across properties and HOAs. Choose flexible payment methods like Same Day ACH, international wires, card or check, and set custom roles in approval policies. There's even a dedicated bill inbox for each property to keep everything organized.

Ready to simplify your workflow? book your free demo at bill.com slash bigger pockets and get a $100 Amazon gift card. That's bill.com slash bigger pockets. And now I think it's time to get in this interview with Chris Greenwood, also known as Manifest. And Chris is going to share a ton of great stuff today. Again, top 40 Billboard charting artist. He's got 10 studio albums. He owns with almost a dozen rental properties, lives in Canada, but also lives in

U.S. or had lived in the U.S. and invest in U.S. real estate mostly. So you're going to hear a lot of good stuff today. Without further ado, anything you want to add, David? Just check out his music, maybe right before he listened to the interview. It would be kind of cool if you heard one of his songs before we put him. Yeah, Pope Spotify real quick and listen to something from Manifest, M-A-A-F-E-S-T. Do you have a favorite song from? I like Impossible, Avalanche and No Plan B. My favorite, probably every time you run, I think. I really like that one a lot. So check it out, everyone. And with that said, let's get to today's interview.

Chris, welcome to the Bigger Pockets podcast, man. It's awesome to have you here. Yeah, super stoked, man. Can't wait. Yeah, so you and I have been talking now for the last several years. We're in a little accountability, you know, mastermind group together with Seth Mosley, who's also been on the show. And we've been talking about this day for, I don't know, two years now.

I've been like, we've got to get you on the show because you got some cool stuff going on in your life and you've got some cool stuff figured out. And that's what we're going to dig into today. So I'm honored to have you. So with that said, who are you, man? Like, like, what's this rap? What's this rap or hip hop? Like, what do you call what you do? And how'd you get into that? You know, it's funny, man. Like, you know, I've always been in the entrepreneur niche kind of, you know, trying to create stuff, you know, from the paper route to shoveling driveways, which, you know, she goes shovel some driveways right now because there's so much snow. But I've been doing music for like, I guess, full time for over 15 years. I was an IT. T guy before that. A lot of people didn't know. I was a Microsoft certified systems engineer. What's up? South the Bay Area, David. But yeah, I did that for a long time. And while I was living at home, I had a really good job and, you know, it was making good money. I funneled that into my music career to kind of really get it started. And I went from, I had such a cool place that I worked for. They

allowed me to go from five days a week to let me have Fridays off so I could go play more shows. And this was like a salary job like I was like the network engineer guy and so I had Fridays off and then I remember I had the guts to ask for another day off and went to three days and then I think I asked for a leaf of absences so I really tried to slowly leave and then of course I eventually quit my job and went broke trying to be a musician and make it in music and you know figured out a lot of stuff signed a really bad record deal learned how to market and sell my music on my own and you know just figured it out, went to radio, had some success, wrote some, wrote some great songs. And, you know, our first success was actually in Japan, believe it on. I was this close, like,

like, so close. Like, coming off a tour broke during Christmas time because it was a tour we bought on to. A lot of people don't know when you see an artist tour, like they might not be getting paid, you know, they might have actually been paying. I had no idea. And in this tour, I was paying $150 a night for a 15-minute set. But it wasn't even a 15-minute set. They cut it in snippets. So I was like the MC slash performing a song in between the artist. I didn't even get a full set, but it gets even better. They made the time margin so small that dudes were setting up behind me while I was singing

bumping into me. Okay. And who knows? Because we were chatting before this is David, my song, Impossible. That was one of the songs I was performing. Like people bumping into me while I'm singing this hit that wasn't a hit yet. And I'm like, get off that tour just like, what am I doing? Making no money.

It could have been making whatever I was making at my job. It's like, I don't got to be here. Why am I here? And you're here for the dream, right? Push fast forward four or five months. We blew up in Japan selling like 10,000 albums a week and breathe new life into my career. Things took off. And yeah.

And I was able to continue to, you know, write better songs and learn how to market my music and keep doing this thing, which I've been so blessed to do. So before we get into the world of like, you know, real estate and personal development and what you've learned about debt and leverage and all that stuff that I want to cover today, I've got a whole list of things to talk to you about. I'm curious about this idea of like quitting your job to pursue your passion because that terrifies most people. Whether they want to start a real estate business, they want to go flip houses, they want to go start an internet, you know, YouTube channel, whatever that thing is. how did you overcome that fear, I guess? How did you overcome that fear? And then what advice you have for people today that are in those shoes of like,

I have a stable job right now. I like this money. I guess what do you have to say to those people? Well, I'll say that. Like I was married too at that point when I quit. I just gotten married. We bought our first property, which is a condo, a little one plus den.

And so I had that on the back of my mind. And all I did before quitting the job was like I hired some managers. hey, as long as you can make me this amount of money, I'm going to do it. And I wanted it so bad, dude, that it was like, like stupidity, whatever it was. Like, I just, I kind of like forced the dream to almost happen. And so there wasn't any fear because it was just like, like, I just wanted it so bad, right? But if I could go back, I would not have quit my job so fast, man. I would have, I would have stayed three days. I would have taken a few more leaf of absences and just slowed it. down a little bit. And so like I encourage people to quit your quit their jobs and stuff,

but make sure that other income is there first. I think it was Grant Cardone. You don't kill one income or you don't like try and build another one until this other one is built, but also sustained. Like I I cut that income off. Plus I was went into debt and I also bought like another vehicle as well too. And I bought it on a credit line. So I bought all these things that weren't making me money. And then I signed a record deal, which you know, signed all my away from my music. And so instead of getting paid every week, the label would pay me twice a year if I sold albums. And so I encourage people like sometimes you got to feel the fear and do it afraid, but be wise, be prudent, plan it out, you know, but still jump, man. Like you still got to jump.

Like, don't procrastinate. There's a difference, right? That's a really good point. I want to jump in really quick before Brandon keeps going. And Brandon holds your thought. Chris, I want to ask you, do you feel like the decision to take the deal with the record label, which you've later described is not a good deal. Might have been influenced or affected by the emotions that came from. I don't have an income stream. I left that job too soon. I need to jump in and do this or were they unrelated?

The label didn't give me even an advance when I signed. So that's the other crazy thing. Like we paid for the record and I thought I was going to be a rock rap star, right? Like I thought because I signed. And that label that did open doors. Like it did open doors to Japan and stuff like that. but like I thought once I got signed that like that was the end of the journey but what I realized that was the beginning of the journey you know and a lot of people you know think like that's that's

the end like now everything is going to work out but there's just so much more right but would you have taken more time to read through it maybe sought counsel from other people if you still had your job and you still had income coming in do you think man like I think I was like driving around to construction sites, installing networks and stuff like that. And I remember, like, listening to Switchfoot's album, The Beautiful Letdown. That big song was, we were meant to do so much more. And I remember just like driving and just being like, I don't want to be here. I want to be doing music full time. And I remember a manager even said to me, he's like, dude, you got a great job. You can, you know, put it into your music career. And I'm like, no, I have to be doing it full time.

I have to be doing it full time. And I bet you people are listening to this right now as far as real estate. They're like, oh, I got to quit my job and do real estate full time. But then they are so stressed out about trying to find deals. And then they start making poor decisions as opposed if they had that income and built it slowly. And then without the stress and the headaches, right? Like that's the same. That's basically what I did with music. And I made it work, man.

But dude, sleeping on the floors, you know, skipping meals, sleeping on a hotel room floors and in the car, driving through the nights like, you know, I would do it differently if I could go back in time. You know, I just like, you know. Yeah, it's interesting because like on one side, it's the whole like jump and build your parachute on the way down, right? Some people always like, just, you know, burn your ships, jump in, do what you got to do. And that will give you the motivation to continue. But at the other side of it, like, that only works.

I feel like those stories of when that works oftentimes are the exception, not the rule, right? You don't hear about the guy who quit his job, built a real estate empire. I mean, we don't bring them back on the show here on the Bigger Pockets podcast. When they come and tell us that they quit their job and then a year later, they're back working at, you know, KFC. Like, we don't bring them back of the show to be like, tell us how you got that job at KFC. Like, we don't, we don't go there. We only hear the highlights of like the people who actually succeeded. So it's almost like a, what's that phrase?

I don't know, like success bias. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, success bias. So we hear that success. So it's, I love that point you're making it. Like, you don't have to quit your job. Most job, I always say, I don't know, man. I'd say most. If you're good at your job, most jobs would allow you to be a little bit

flexible with the hours, like a little bit to a certain degree. And if not, that's where we were like, okay, fine, go get another job that is flexible. Even if it pays less money, at least you have the income coming in. Go be a real estate agent if that's what you're into. Go like sell, I don't know, vacuum cleaner. I don't know, whatever it is. Something that you like, but it gives you flexibility. Yeah, and try borrowing money self-employed as opposed to with the job. All right. I've been on both sides of it. And some reason, when you have a salary job, it's just like, oh, we'll give you as much money as you want. Yeah, they assume that you're just, you know, and then it's like Fort Knox, man. You got to provide every single report and document possible your second child.

It's so true. It's funny that you're saying this because Brandon and I both constantly. This is like, what would you call a pet peeve, Brandon, when we have to deal with banks and they're just like, oh, I just need 97 pages. Yeah, last November, a year and a half ago, you spent $12 and $17. at a 7-Eleven out in New York City. We're going to see that receipt and figure out what you bought for that. You're like, it was like, it was like nachos. Like I got some nachos at the gas station.

Yeah, we're going to need to see a receipt for that. So, yeah, I totally feel you there. It's horrendous. Well, what I love about why you're saying, Chris, is it doesn't have to be a binary option. Something about when we're in a fearful place, your brain wants to take everything and turn it into, well, do I, do I live my dream or do I just get stuck in a cubicle and kill my soul as if that's you're only two options and that's not really reality yeah totally man i was just reading this book talking about how you know uh you you're you choose to be happy now you know having success isn't going to make

you happy when you're happy that is success kind of thing and it's like we think that you know this destination is going to make us happy it's like no enjoy the journey like you know i kind of miss the fight sometimes now and you know you sometimes get get jaded and you know it's the same thing with like everything like your first deal and the excitement and whatever and then you've done it all the time and now it's numbers, right? And so it's just, it's just different. It's like hearing a song for the first time. It's like, you know, you only get that one listen, right?

Yeah, that's a good point. So on that, let's talk about the first deal. You mentioned first deal. What was your first real estate deal? What that looked like? The first, I guess, deal we did was our condo when we moved into it. And instead of selling it, we got this idea, I think, from, I think it was David Bocker, some story of this fan.

I think start, late, finish rich or something. I read this story about this family. They would buy a house. They lived in it. And instead of selling it, they rented it out. And so I think I got that idea from that. And so I remember we wanted to move into something bigger. And so we just rented it out.

And it was easy. It was so cool as our bankers ex-husband rented it out. So we got a great tenant. And he was just awesome, dude. Like the only time he called was to give us more checks. And we had that condo for forever. And then we did it again. in the next house, then we moved from Canada to California.

And that was a little scarier. And we had a manager for that one. And that was rough. The first tenant in there was rough. They put everything down like a doctor and this dude's legit income. But he didn't say he had two kids for some reason when they moved in. They had like five or seven or something like that. So he was out pretty quick.

Wow. What else? Like what could you have done differently in that first deal that went wrong? Because a lot of people, or not the first deal that went wrong, the second deal, I guess you did that just was rough. A lot of people are afraid of getting into real estate because they're like, well, what if something goes wrong in my first deal or second deal? Yeah.

And you know what's funny? Like I was saying to Kevin earlier is that like, you know, horror stories and the bad stories, the bad news travels faster than the good news. And I think that's why there's this rap about old toilets and all this stuff. Like, I've been doing this for a long time. Barely anything has ever gone wrong. Like it's always like it's really not,

but these stories of stuff. goes wrong. And our management company that, you know, got these guys on, he's like, look, they look good on paper. Everything was perfect. And I remember he's like, he's like, sometimes you just get that rare oddity of a person, you know, like you just can't help it. Like no matter what you do, you could check it all. But I remember saying, Chris, this is like the story we tell at campfires. Like we still talk about that one like bad 10. He's like, Chris, I wouldn't sell that guy a million dollar home. He's just like, he's just like, you know, I don't, honestly, there isn't anything we could

have done different because they moved out pretty quick. And then we got a new tenant in there and then it was just smooth sailing after that. Well, I want to make this point that, because I think it's, you just made it, I'm just going to add on to it is that these stories that you hear, like the toilet stories or whatever. Like, even I've told my, I've told a couple toilet stories here on the show before. They're like, I've got like two stories over a. 15 year career, that is because I put myself, first of all, into those positions. And second of all, in the moment, they weren't that crazy because they didn't happen in a 30 second

story. You know what I mean? Like, like, bad stories, even bad tenants. I've had to evict. And I've had like a tenant that once threatened to, she wrote a note that said, if you touch my stuff, I'm going to murder you. Like, she was a crazy lady. But like, even like stories like that, that, that situation. I'll tell you that. That was probably the worst tenant I ever had was this crazy lady, stop paying rent. She was on section eight, but then she wouldn't let the section eight, which is like our like, you know, government, they program whatever. Yeah, housing program. Anyway, so they wouldn't let the inspectors in.

So they canceled their section A. So now she wasn't paying us. She went nuts like there was, you know, governments listening to her through the wires and her walls kind of nuts. And then we do a Victor. They moved out her stuff. She threatened us, whatever. And then my wife and I actually cleaned that house of so much like mouse and cockroach poop. And then ourselves.

And then we emptied it out. We brought everything in the dump. We got it re rented. It looks beautiful. And today I think cash flows like crazy. Now, that took me 30 seconds to tell that story. That was over the course of a month, though. And it wasn't that bad when I was in it.

It was like, okay, what's the next step? We got to do this. What's the next step? We got to do that. And honestly, I wouldn't have had to clean those stuff. I could have hired someone to do it. I just was young and scrappy at the time. That's like my equivalent of like you saying like you slept on the floor of, you know,

cars or you traveling, right? Like, when you're in those moments, they're not really usually that bad as a story might make them be. But they make you into the kind of person that you later become when you do have to go through them. So I don't know, I just want to encourage people like, don't get scared off by those stuff. It's really not that bad. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's nothing compared to the advantages appreciation and the income and like the risks are so like nothing. And just because I read this the other day and I just thought it was so cool is that, you know, the reason why you don't hear

successful people winning the lottery is because successful people don't buy lottery tickets. And people will say, you know, but but yet unsuccessful people buy them. And the, The risk is and the chances of winning are like so small. Yeah. And yet when we say go invest in real estate, like, oh, that's too risky. Yeah. You know, it's like, you know, I was thinking when you were talking about the toilet thing. We say that because this is the stereotypical.

What are you going to do when the toilet breaks at two in the morning and the tenant wakes you up? And I just thought for myself, why doesn't that stop anyone from buying a house for themselves? Toilets would break in your house the same as they'd break in the tenant's house. Not one person's ever said, I don't want to buy a house because my toilet could break at two in the morning, right? But that becomes the excuse for why we don't, it just doesn't make any sense. I don't know why I never thought about that. It's never stopped anyone for buying a primary residence. Why would it stop you buying a rental? That's funny. All right. So what came next then you got, I know you got at some point got heavier into real estate. So how did that happen?

Yeah. Well, just from from reading books and just diving into it and just getting, you know, inspired. And, you know, music took over for a little while. But then I was like, okay, you know, making some money. I really believe it's a good place to put money in and to grow your wealth and protect it. And so the last few years, we started buying, you know, more properties, whether that was the turnkey stuff. Yeah.

You know, being in Canada, you know, buying stuff here, buying stuff in the U.S., and just learning, you know, strategies of doing it because it's like I'm not an active investor. I'd say I'm definitely more passive with the, whether it's the turnkey or just a few here and having different management companies handle it, which, you know, I'm realizing, you know, my time is so much more valuable. So having people where the deal is already done, because I'm not going to run all the numbers and all that stuff. And I need it kind of handed to me and figured out, okay, just tell me the ROI. Just give me the basic numbers and I'll make my decision based on that. And I'm sure we'll get into it.

But it's just like, you know, I'm not a big debt guy. You know, I'm definitely like good, bad debt, you know. But, you know, there's always risk with everything. And so it's just really being prudent and not putting myself too much. at risk and risking my portfolio off of being too hungry or comparing, you know, how many doors I have compared to someone else and in over leveraging, right? Yeah. So let's go to that because, well, let's go to the debt thing in a minute. First, I want to hit turnkey in case people don't know what that means. I want to talk about that for a minute. And then we'll go into like

the idea of debt and your views on that. But what is turnkey real estate? Why was, why did that attract you. I like the turnkey. One, because just the easy, quick turnaround, I don't have to get my hands dirty. I don't have to look at it. I can't believe I've bought properties now without even like looking at them. It took us a while to get to that. And I remember talking with my wife and we started doing it. And the first one just went so well. They got a tenant in there. They handled the management. They handled the rehab. The checks were coming in. when there when there was problems they they handled it and so it was very hands off and i like that because i wanted to work on songs i wanted to work on my other parts of my business where real

estate was just something where i just wanted to put my my money into something um but then you know some of the turnkeys and people will say and i obviously you guys will have your input on this but it's just like i find with those that you don't not you don't get the best deals but i find as far as my experience so far, there hasn't been as much appreciation as there has been ROI on dollar for dollar invested. The appreciation hasn't been as good, but the ROI of, you know, what I put in versus what I got back was, was really good. Yeah. Yeah. So turnkey. And of course, we're talking about like these companies that, you know, they find the property, they fix it up, they put a tenant and they manage the whole thing. You just basically get the loan, right? Like,

that's, that's a majority of your active work. How do you, how did you find a trustworthy turnkey company to go with originally? And did you jump around a different one? or do you have just one? And how did you go navigate that? Well, when you were speaking at music and money, I think it was in Nashville and I was chatting with Seth and he brought them up and started talking about them. And I was just like, and it was kind of like, oh, well, if he's buying with them, then I'll buy with them. And that's, that's the trust of referral and signing off on them. And, you know, with you guys with bigger pockets and referring, you know, stuff that you trust. Like, there's just so much power and integrity and in a referral, right? And someone that I

trust and if they've got results in their life, then that, that is very strong for me to make a decision. Yeah. Right. If my trust is in them, like when you refer me to something, like, it's like, okay, well, if Brandon's doing or David's doing it, well, then it's got to be good, right? And so I, and I listened. I listened to some, I listened to some, got some referrals, different things, and then made my decision. But then I, but I made it. And then the first one that went good, then we did another one. There's another tier and key company. that we did, but it's interesting, their systems weren't as smooth. Communication wasn't as good. But what's interesting is you don't know until you kind of get into the weeds and you got to

test stuff and you got to know. And then you find your team and you find what you like, right? And what works for you. And, you know, I don't know if I'm fully sold on the turnkey. Like, I like it. But like, you know, there's the pros and cons, right? What are some of the cons? there hasn't been as much appreciation. As far as I can see, I didn't find the deal. So I don't really know if I got it at the best market value or not because they're the ones fixing it up. There's not as much control. That's kind of the main ones because I feel like, because the ROI is good.

But that appreciation, man, it's just like that's the gold. And I think kind of doesn't that really outweigh it? I think it does. I want to do David this question because you're as a real estate agent, and somebody who's really good at knowing this stuff, and you're the long-distance real estate investing guy, why do you think appreciation is typically not as good on turnkey? And just your general thoughts on turnkey. I'm so glad you asked. You best have read my face as Chris was talking. I was thinking like, oh, I know why that is. So when we say turnkey, what we're saying is the property

is in such good condition. All you have to do is turn the key, open the door and you're ready to go. That is what, Chris, you were looking for is I don't want the time and the headache of having to figure this thing out because my time is better spent doing other things with my family making money, you know, the stuff we're going to get into and the rest of the podcast. The problem here, well, first off, I'll say appreciation is a much bigger component of building wealth through real estate than what most people would think. We talk on the podcast a lot of the time, like don't bet on appreciation. You don't want to put yourself in a position where you can lose money because you were counting on appreciation, but it is still a factor in this whole piece. And if you weigh over a 20, 30 year period,

how much wealth you built from cash flow versus that property appreciating in most areas appreciation is going to dominate. So it's not at either or, just like we were saying earlier, there's a spectrum that you want to be on. The problem with why those properties that Chris is talking about don't appreciate, I'm guessing Chris is where they bought in the Midwest. Yeah, they're on the Midwest. And that's what you, you just nailed it to me think like there's no, I'm not adding any value. They're already adding the value. They're finding the places to add values. And so it's like, I'm not going to be able to do anything else. right? Yes. I think creative. And because they, the turnkey companies tend to exist in the Midwest,

because that's where the cash flow is the greatest. You're inherently sacrificing appreciation in order to get cash flow because, and there's nothing wrong with it. That's just where those turnkey companies operate because most of their buyers want the cash flow. So it's not that turnkey doesn't create appreciation. I mean, it hurts in the sense you're usually paying market value or a little bit more, but even long term Midwest does not create appreciation. So as you move into the next phase of your investing life, we're like, okay, I've got cash flow. Now I want to get more appreciation. My advice would be you focus on turnkey properties, meaning for the most part, they're already in pretty good shape.

They're not a total fixer upper that have a little bit of meat on the bone. You can make them nicer, but you buy in an area that's more likely to appreciate. That would be like the next stage on there. So I just wanted to clarify, it's not that turnkey doesn't appreciate. It's that usually they're in the Midwest and that market doesn't appreciate. Well, and I'll make this point, too, like, I think, yeah, okay, so when you buy it through a turnkey company, like you said, you are sacrificing a couple of things. You maybe are not getting a great deal because they've already maxed, like they're going to get their big profit. Like, let's just use some simple math, right? They, the turnkey company goes and finds a property for 50 grand. They then put 30 grand to work into it. Now they're at $80,000. They sell that turnkey, that property to you for $100. That's all fixed up and ready to go for $100. Again, very simple math there. That means the turnkey company just made $20,000. They basically flipped it to an investor that they didn't have to pay a real estate agent for.

It's a phenomenal business model. I would love to be in that model. Like, amazing. But if you were just to go buy that property on the MLS, like if you were just going to get a real estate agent, you'd probably pay $100,000 for a similar property. So the question is, why wouldn't you just go do that yourself? Like David's even saying, you could go buy one that maybe for 90,000, you can put a little work into or $80,000. Get a little of the equity yourself. And for many, many people, that is a great idea.

But for you, Chris, I look at you and I say that would not have been a good use of your time, is my assumption. Because you make way more money doing what you do, which is music and teaching people how to make money in music, which is kind of like your business stuff, than trying to get the best deal. And so there's a balancing act for everybody. And this is why we can't tell you, you should do it this way. You should do it this way. Your highest and best use was probably not trying to get a $20,000 discount on a piece of real estate. you need real estate as an investment, not as a generator of money or profit up front, right? Where me and Dave, when we got started, we definitely wanted the money as a profit, like to generate money.

We need it in. So again, I think it just perfectly illustrates like how everybody has to take a different approach to real estate. And I think your approach is phenomenal. Make money doing what you love to do in business, entrepreneurship, whatever, and then dump all your money into real estate in a way that works for you and your time availability. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, because it's like you got to be passionate about it. You got to want to do it, right? Like, not everybody wants to hunt the deals. Like, yeah, and sometimes I'm like, yeah, I do want to do that, but I don't want to do it as much to drop everything else I'm doing. Right? But like, you know, I know my wife likes fixing up stuff and we were trying to fix up something the other day to get it, get it rented. And so we didn't rehab. We just, uh, what's the word I'm looking for. We just, uh, set it up. Cleaned it up. Staged. We staged it. That's what it was. We staged it to move it. It was fun, you know. Yeah, yeah. But I don't know if we want to do that all the time or no. You know. So it's just. It's just. It's just. It's just. It's just. It's just. just depends. Yeah. Well, to further that point before we move on, I'll say I myself don't buy real

estate the way I did six years ago. I was the deal guy. I was hammering to I was scouring. I got, I was so fun getting a great deal because I was comparing that to work in 20 hours a day as a cop. It was much more fun to go find those great deals. Now I'll make more money, have more influence over other people, be much more fulfilled in the businesses I'm working on. So I still buy real estate, but I'm not killing myself to get another $11,000 on that property. I'm like, well, where do I buy the best land, the best area and find a deal to make it work there? And Brandon, you've kind of seen it. So I'm just saying that to give everyone else permission.

Like, we do this too. Yeah. We've progressed along that same scale. That's good. That's good. Yeah, that's really good. All right. So let's talk about a little bit what else you do.

So when you're doing music, but you also have a music business, right, that teaches people how to do music. What's that all about? Yeah. When I was on the road in the green rooms or behind, you know, the stage before we'd go on, I get asked a lot of questions, like, how are you making money with your music? Because I was always entered it like where like at first it was like, I thought the label was going to do everything, but then I went broke. And so it's like, okay, I got to figure out how to make money with my music. How does this work? And so I dived into the marketing of it and was very hands on. And so I started

getting a lot of questions from artists. Like, how are you doing this? And I'm like, well, have you set up this? Do you got merch? Do you got, you know, drop shipping? Do you you have print on demand? Do you have, are you using Facebook, Instagram ads? Like, all these different things. Like, are you making money from YouTube? And, uh, and I decided one day, like, I'll never forget. I was driving back from surfing up the, uh, I five there from Dana Point. And I was listening to a podcast, uh, about online business. And I, and I heard these guys making like money and stuff doing courses and stuff. And I was like, man, I got to just do this. I got to help some people and, and got to do this. So I pulled over to Starbucks, outlined this online course. Next thing you know, my pregnant wife

is filming me as I'm recording this course. And I'm just like, like just giving it my all, right? And feeling like an idiot. And my wife's like, just, just, just, just do you're doing great. You're doing great. This is going to help somebody artists. Like you're doing great. And I was like, okay, so we do it.

And I remember we put it up online for sale. And I remember we went to this Bible study. And when I was at the Bible study, all of a sudden I started getting ding, ding, ding. And I was, I was making sales on this course, right? And you got to understand, like, all it took was a microphone, a camera. and an idea, right? My computer. And all of a sudden, we're making sales,

and there are a lot more than a 99-cent song on iTunes or Spotify. And it costs me nothing where a song takes, you know, to get it done right, takes thousands of dollars, you know. So like to get in this business to, you know, I write songs to inspire people and to, you know, help them and rock out, whatnot and make a difference. But, you know, I'm also now making courses to help other artists get their art out there and making a living.

But the entry level to get in was, is like completely different. And so this whole model of, you know, like teaching what you know and people paying you for it. Like, you know, I spent tens of thousands of dollars on my brain from courses to books to masterminds and stuff. And it's like I can't be, I can't assume just because I know this stuff that everybody else does, but yet we devalue what we know. And so that's where we mean my, my wife as well. We both have our info product businesses where, you know, I teach musicians how to market, sell their music online. And my wife teaches artists how to sell their art online.

And so it's something that we've started to do together. Yeah, that's cool. It's cool because, like, you addressed it from the standpoint of, like, I'm legitimately going to help people. Like, by putting together this course, I'm legitimately going to help, like, musicians who are making no, I mean, musicians make no money. They're constantly making terrible deals with the labels. And, like, they, it's a rough life being am.

Even people you think are, like, super successful in musicians. Like, I know that COVID, like, just decimated them because they couldn't all their money was from travel from from touring from touring and all of a sudden these people that you think are like massive like musicians and country stars or rappers or whatever all of a sudden they're broke they have no money whatsoever because like all their money was just like it was a job and as soon as the spick turned off they had no money left so you're like hey here's some of the ways that we can make money not just from touring or not just from this but different thing like that right yeah yeah there's just so many different income streams

that you can set up just like how real estate you know you get the appreciation you get the cash flow and you get the write-off and you know we could go off the different from from one asset well one song has all these different income streams right like you know from putting the on the merch you know tv and film youtube spotify and there's just so many different things that you know from one song but you don't know what you don't know right and that's why you know people perish for lack of knowledge and it's just like you know one thing i didn't know and i could have negotiated it cost me 50 000 bucks on a deal. And I could have just asked for it and I didn't because I didn't know, right? And so. Yeah. So what I'm curious who you think like is the ideal. I'm going to ask

David, you the same question to you, David. But like there is a glut of really terrible like online courses out there in the real estate space and in every space pretty much imaginable because everyone read the four hour work week. It was like, whoa, I could just build, build a simple course and then make a ton of money right away. Who should who should create? like who should be looking into this kind of thing like this world of like created money online and who shouldn't like what what's the best way to attack that you know for me it's it's about having your heart in the right place and wanting to help someone get a result you know and i was on tour uh saving saving abel is this a mainstream tour this club bar tour and i've always traveling

and uh going into thrift shops to buy inspirational books and i found the book millionaire messenger by brandon Breschard for 50 cents. And, you know, that's what got me into wanting to teach online. And it was all about making money, but making an impact, like helping people. Like get your, you know, if you just want to help people, the money, you'll come. Right. Like, like, this just help people, right? Like, and make a difference. And if you do that, then, then you're going to make, you're going to make money. Yeah, that's a good point. I made this point. I think it was like last week on the podcast or a few weeks ago on the podcast here, but I'll say it again, keep you to hear it. As I was on another show recently, I think it was called perpetual traffic.

And it was all about, like, you know, getting traffic to your business stuff, right, in your online business. Now, I was talking about bigger pockets. And we were joking about how terrible bigger pockets is at a lot of internet marketing things. Like, we're just not that good at like SEO. And we're not that we don't, we're not technical at a lot of different things. We don't do like the click funnel stuff that you, I know you, like, we just don't do a lot of stuff that we should be doing. So why is bigger pockets the largest real estate investing website on the planet? Like, why are the largest podcast?

Because like Josh, when he found it, was like, how do we just provide real value? Like, how do we actually help people? Right? And like, when you come at it from that standpoint, like, it's just a different game versus how do I make the most amount of money possible with a least amount of work possible and get people to give me their credit card so I can just like quit my job and lie on a beach? Like that, that mentality, I think just it only takes you so far. But when you just go, I'm going to provide massive value and help to people and teach what

I actually do. Like you weren't also like making things up, right? Like, I mean, how many times you get irritated from people who are like, I'm going to teach you guys, like, David, you see this all the time, right? I'm going to teach you guys how to get rich through real estate. Oh, yeah, what have you done? Well, I've done two deals. Oh, okay, great. Like, it's easy to teach. I took four courses from other people that were making these. Yeah. But like you were an active musician, right? Like, are you actually making money with this? Like, do you actually make money from your music or are you just teaching it? And that's the thing, too, is like, like, like, even me, like, whereas it's like, yeah, I have done this, you know, we toured 22 different countries. We've had success. Yeah. And so it's there.

But I had my own doubts in my mind, but it's just like, that's where you just got to have the right heart and want to help people. And I love with what you guys, it's like, like, you guys are giving away so much amazing value and you're giving away for free where people are not even teaching is what is giving away as much value, but trying to charge for it, right? And so it's just like, how can you, how can you compete with that? Yeah. And I would argue that, yeah, if you want to compete with bigger pockets, which is great. I hope people do. I hope you go and come and come and compete with us. we can use some competition.

You got to do a better job than we're doing. And like in a lot of areas, like we teach a lot of value. So how do you provide more value? Find that area that bigger pockets is not doing that you are currently doing already in your life. And then go teach that. If you want to go teach that online and make a little bit of money, fine. You can make a lot of money that way. But you've got to be able to bring something different to the table.

And this is a big thing I see with online entrepreneurs of every sort, right? Like this is when I tried to start a wooden sunglasses business. I was one of a thousand other people selling wooden sunglasses. like six years ago. Like, why was I different? I wasn't. I had nothing different. David, what do you think on this? I think I'm glad you don't sew wooden sunglasses, first of all. Thank you. Terrible idea. I think I told you that when you were doing it. They were awesome looking glasses, though, right? They looked cool and I still wish I had a pair. I still don't get the appeal of wood on your face. That never ever made sense to me. It was lighter than plastic. Light.

Yeah, I can feel the lightning. It floated in the water. You get that amazing feeling like when you rub your face against tree bark and you just wanted that every day. It was pretty smooth, like wood. It felt like plastic. Anyway, Keep going. Yeah. So I would say my pet peeve is when somebody makes an online course and it's a pet peeve because there's vulnerable people that will pay for it. That's the problem with our business is they are so desperate to get out of their cubicle at Microsoft. This is a systems engineer that they'll pay a lot of money to someone with the hope that they can get out of it. And then that person doesn't deliver. But there's no accountability because you don't know that person. You don't have a relationship with them. You'll never see them. They clicked on a click funnel.

They paid their money. And if they get ripped off. off, well, that's not your problem. That's what we don't like. So that's why it's so important that the person who's selling that course, if that's what you're paying for, does this. And it's very easy to not do it. And you're never going to really know much about them until after you paid for the course. So if there's many people out there, I'm saying, that are doing this for the wrong reason. They want to look like a big deal. The Instagram factor has made its way into these online courses. And I think that the bigger pockets model has been give value, do what teach other people, help them. then good things will come your way. Bigger Pockets is a very successful company at this point.

So I ascribe personally to the whole like take a leap of faith. Give first, see what comes your way. And then if you're someone like Chris, I mean, Chris, I honestly don't know anyone else who's doing what you're doing. The reason it's so important you did this is I don't think anyone else is helping musicians avoid getting taken advantage by record labels where they're vulnerable. You're literally empowering people that are vulnerable that are being taken advantage of instead of taking advantage of the people that are vulnerable. Does that make sense? Well, it does. And this is the thing. Like the music industry is known just for taking advantage of people, like, whether it's labels, managers, whatever. So you're skeptical just as an artist. And like, I've spent a lot of money

marketing my music, all right, getting it out there. And I haven't received nearly as much hate from that as opposed to trying to help musicians. And because they're just so skeptical, right? It's just like, I don't believe, whatever, whatever. And saying some things that are pretty colorful language online. And that's why I like, man, I've already got thick skin because of my music. But it's just like, dude, I'm just honestly just trying to help you, bro. Like, girl, you know what I mean? And so the walls slowly come down. And I think that's what's so cool about, you know, the podcast that you guys have, like to know, that build that like and trust. And I think it was Frank Kern who said, you know, if I want people to buy from you, like get them results first, you know, share something. Get them a result

and build that trust and then they'll want to buy from you if they know you and like you and trust you. You've earned the right to sell them the course when you've done it. We keep using this phrase all the time and it's a good way of thinking. To me, it's a carrot that motivates you to get somewhere. Hey, I want to make courses for people. Great. What have you done to earn the right to be able to sell that thing? Where's that tracker? It's a healthy way of improving. Yeah. So good. People love to call real estate passive income, which is interesting because most of the investors I know are very busy. Busy finding deals, busy managing teams, busy worrying they picked the wrong market. Rent to retirement flips that model. They help investors buy turnkey new construction homes, often 10% below

market value in top rental markets across the country. Their local teams handle the build, the property management, and the details, so you don't have to. In some cases, investors even receive 50 to 75% of their down payment back at closing, and there are interest rates as low as 3.75%. They've been trusted partners with Bigger Pockets for over a decade. And if you want to learn more, visit BiggerPockets.com slash retirement. When I bought my first rental, I thought collecting rent would be the hard part. Nope. The admin crushed me.

Every night was receipts, tax forms, and checking who was late on rent. I kept thinking, if this is one unit, how do people run 10? Baselane changed that. It's Bigger Pockets official banking platform that handles expense tracking, financial reporting, rent collection, and even tenant screening all in one place. It's the system I wish I had from day one. Sign up today at baselane.com slash bigger pockets and get $100 bonus. Baselane is a financial technology company and is not an FDIC insured bank.

Bank banking services provided by Threadbank, member FDIC. All right, rental property investors, listen up. Our friends at Dominion Financial already have some of the best DSCR rates in the industry. Now they're the fastest, too. They just launched 10-day DSCR closing. That's right, 10 days. And they're still the only lender with the DSCR price beat guarantee. That means faster closing, the best terms.

zero guesswork, that's Dominion Financial. Check them out at biggerpockets.com slash dominion. Again, that's biggerpockets.com slash dominion. Tax season reminder for all the real estate investors listening. If you own rental properties, short-term rentals, commercial buildings, basically anything that's not your primary residence, you need to know about cost segregation. It's an IRS-compliance strategy that lets you accelerate depreciation on your properties, which means you're paying less in taxes this year and keeping more cash in your pocket for your next deal. Cost Segregation Guys is the go-to firm,

having done over 12,000 of these studies, with $500 million in total depreciation identified. Head to costsegregationguise.com slash BP to get a free proposal and see your potential tax savings. I have a question about thick skin. So you are a, like, a white Christian rapper, right? So, like, you get, you probably get a lot

a flack for that, right? Because you're not, you're not the cliche, like, you know, what people think of when they think of hip hop. So you had to have a lot of thick skin. I'm sure you probably got a lot of hate. And then you sell an online course, which is also like going to get a lot of hate. So the question I have is, how do you deal with that hate, whether it's online, whether it's on stage, whether it's wherever you are. How do you deal with that? You know, in the beginning stages, especially because I did mostly hip hop, I kind of do the rap and, and the, and the, and the, rock now as well. And honestly, I wish I just focused on on one genre, it didn't bounce because it kind of

hurt me. That's the power of needing to focus. And it's funny. I like your, I like that you've gone between them. But anyway, keep going. Yeah, like the rock stuff is actually done better than the hip hop stuff. But I remember getting up on the open mics and, you know, going up there and the DJ would just spin a beat and you just got a rap and you don't know how fast the beat is going to be.

And I remember the first time I went up to do that to wrap. I was scared out of my mind. And I did it and I rocked it. And I just ran back to my seat like like hide me behind like a drink. You know what I mean? And I remember the MC goes, yo manifest. Get the beep beep back up here, man. That was hot, right?

And so I started. So I encouraged me. And so I went and did another verse. And so I showed up. I started showing up every week. But I never forget one time I went up and I stood there. And I was just awkward. And I said, hey, I'm feeling the vibe.

Are you guys feeling the vibe? And I remember these two chicks just like laughing, making fun of me. And I remember just walking down, just like feeling like such a loser, you know. And, but like honestly, like any hate, any discouragement, I think honestly it's more in your head than it actually has been. I haven't really had that much where people are just like, you know, so rude. Like we run a lot of Facebook, Instagram ads promoting our music. And, you know, some people will say stuff. But like, I don't know if it's just that I've just built up the thick skin or whatnot.

Like sometimes my mom would be like, I can't believe those things people are saying. about you and I'm just like, wow, I don't look at those comments. I don't read that stuff and just try to be so, so mission-minded, so wrapped up in your dream, so wrapped up in your calling. You're too busy on your dream to be, to be worrying about that or to be concerned about that because, like, I think it was Seth Godin. He says he never reads his Amazon reviews on his books because it's like, how is that going to help him or encourage him?

Like, am I looking for an ego boost or like, like, what's my purpose? What's my why? Is it because of the comments? Like, is that going to, you know, lift me or? tear me down. And so I feel like I've just, it's more of sometimes it used to be the industry people when someone would say no, but I've learned how to turn those nos into maybes and those maybes into yeses. And that's by just perseverance and coming from different angles and making a better product, which for me is sometimes a better song or packaging it a different way and

learning how to sell, learning how to sell yourself and overcoming that stuff, you know. Yeah, that's really good. You said something earlier in the podcast that we didn't get into too hard, but it really caught my attention to that you were so driven to get out of your job at Microsoft that it almost didn't matter how you were going to get there. And looking back, you realized you could have made it a smoother transition. That is something I wanted to ask if you think that will that you have, the drive I want to make this happen. Seems like it's what got you out of the W-2. It's why you didn't care about hate that could have come your way. It's why if other people didn't support you, it didn't deter you. And I was curious.

And this is a tough question. I'm asking you on the spot. I know. If you can isolate why you wanted it so bad and maybe give advice to others who have a dream, but there's a piece of them that holds back. They're afraid of failing or they have pieces in them that don't let them really let that inferno go. Because as you're saying, man, that just burned through anything that would have gotten my way from moving forward. Yeah, I'm going to get heavy with you guys, if that's all right. But I lost my dad to suicide when I was five years old. Right. So I didn't have this. father figure to look up to and be that role model in my life. And so I've always sought out godly businessman that were successful, whether that was in books, you know, movies, actual mentors. I've just always looked up to successful men and sought that out. And I really believe that there is always this hunger in me because it was there because I wanted to be a pro skateboarder at one point too, right? And I got hurt. And I just and I wasn't like I feel like nothing's ever been handed to me. And I always had to like work at it, whether it was music, real estate, business. Like, I really feel I had to, like,

like, it wasn't like necessarily natural talent or ability and I had to like work on it to make it happen. But I believe that drive came from from not having a dad and, and wanting to be a success. And I don't know if it's prove them wrong or I have to achieve this or be here because I didn't have that. Maybe it was anger inside. But something, you know, God put in, put in me to want to be a successful and kind of prove them wrong because I was also. bullied as a kid as well too and called, you know, you're not a leader, you're a follower, you're never going to amount to nothing. And, you know, it's kind of like this desire to say, look, no, I am going to be something great. You know, I failed music in school as well too. And so

maybe prove my teacher wrong. And so there's always been this, this desire to just like push through the crap, you know. You know, being somebody who you, you talk to a lot, I know, you've, you've written, you know, books about this topic about like, I don't know, depression is the right word, but people who are just going through hard times, especially younger people. You know, like, I know like you came from a family. I mean, your dad's suicide. I obviously affected you and you learned a lot from that. What can you say to people listening to this right now, like who maybe are just lacking in the hope in this time? Maybe this had a really bad year. Like maybe the code 2020 was just terrible on them. Maybe they're, again, I guess just

people are just struggling right now. Like, what can you tell them? Yeah, you know, as a believer in faith and stuff, and I like to get really wrong. Like, I always you know, not ashamed of my faith. And, you know, I go through hard times. I have some pretty gnarly thoughts sometimes. And something we always say is, you know, like, look, a fighter isn't someone who never fails. A fighter is someone who never quits. And I encourage you just not to quit. Like even the fact that you're listening to this podcast right now means your story's not done yet. So right through those tough times, right through that pain, you know, instead of trying to numb it with drugs or alcohol or whatnot. And I get it. I know sometimes having a nice glass

of wine at the end of the week or to kind of just relax or whatnot. I encourage, you plug in the podcast, plugging the teaching up bigger pockets, get around the community, get around people that are going to encourage you and want to see you win. Because I know without a doubt, like your guys' hearts are in desire to want to see people win with real estate and change their life. And you believe that that's an avenue. And so just say to people, hey, your story's not done yet. Keep writing it. You're still here and you're still here for a purpose. And there's, there's a light at the end of this tunnel. As long as you don't quit and you stay in the game and you push through this messy middle that you're going through right now.

Yeah. Yeah, messy middle. It's a good way to put that because it is the middle. Like, it's not the end. It's just one part you're going to look back on your life. If it is a hard time right now, you're going to say, yeah, that was a hard time. But it made me who I am today because I'm a fighter and I got through this thing. Yeah, it's going to make you stronger. Yeah. Well, one thing I heard you say, too, there is like, don't waste your pain. Pain's very powerful motivator. You mentioned painful things. Yeah. And that numbing them is a waste of the pain. I don't want to feel this. Oh, it's so good. But that's, it's the fuel, right, that's going to get you. you over those hurdles and their obstacles. Yeah. Paint that pain. Use it as a motivator. Like get that,

get angry and move, you know, don't get angry and self-destructs, self-sabotage, right? Do something with it, because that is such a powerful emotion. And I forget someone said, like, it's almost like, don't let a good crisis go to wait. Because like when you're like under that pressure of finances, money, trying to figure it out, don't wait until it's over. Because like your neurons, and everything is fired up. Now is the time to get to work and create and get yourself out of this spot, right? That's really good. Well, I want to shift here as we're moving toward the end of the show,

kind of the downhill slope here. And I mean that in a good way. It's all downhill from here. I want to talk a little bit about the book that you recently wrote. I think it's going from red to black, a short journey from debt to liberty. Yeah. What's that about?

man uh it's all about you know getting out of debt first of all bad debt building wealth i hired a mentor in a in australia peter j daniels um really inspired me as a billionaire um he's a gold bullion dealer i flew out there to be coached by them and uh you know just to get my money right different things and just just be inspired and coached about my business trusts all kinds of stuff that we'll get into but i remember saying like look i want to i love this business stuff you I love this entrepreneur stuff. I love Bigger Pockets podcast. Like, I love this stuff.

I love talking about this stuff today. But like, but I'm an artist. I'm a musician. How can I, you know, talk about this stuff? And they're like, Chris, man. Like you're wealthy. You're successful. Who else is, you know, if not you, who's going to talk about this?

And I remember then this is a couple of years ago that we came up with that title from red to black, you know, a short journey from debt to liberty. And that's the idea of, you know, getting out of debt, building wealth. not just for you, but for your family. And so you can pass it along and just talking about everything that I went through these last, you know, I'm 41, 41 years of building a successful business, you know, didn't fail. My wife, my relationship still together, you know, have a kid.

You know, sometimes we use all these different excuses, crutches of why we can't be successful. And it's kind of like, look, you know, with all this stuff going on, my marriage didn't fall apart. And, you know, it was able to build success. And now it's kind of like want to, you know, you know, hang down the ladder to the next generation, help build them up and avoid the mistakes I made. How do you view debt right now? You use the word good debt and bad debt a couple of times. How do you view those differences? Man, I struggled with that whole thing. Like I've read Rich Dad, Ford Dad before I read Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey, right? And,

you know, I believe that using other people's money is a very powerful tool, you know, and that whether it's to buy real estate, start a business, you know, using that to get started. But I just am leery of the trap in over-leveraging. You know what I mean? Bad debt to me, though, is obviously credit cards, you know, stuff that's not making you money. But if you got debt on a piece of real estate or a business that's making you money, I think that is an extremely powerful leverage. And you should not be afraid of using that.

But just don't get lured into over-leveraging it. to you expose yourself because there's there's always risk right and so you got to measure those but like I'm all about getting out of that bad debt whether that's you know credit card stuff loans on things that are liabilities things that aren't making you money and good debt is debt that's on assets things that are producing cash flow like a business real estate I'm all about that but just not over leveraging yourself because you know look what we just went through man like thank God like properties and everything worked out well for me but I'm sure there's a lot of people that didn't work out so well for for and tenants not being able to pay. And we just can't, we don't have a crystal ball. We don't know what's

going to happen. And so that's why, you know, it's important to have multiple income streams and things to protect you through these turbulent times. And who knows what's going to happen next, right? So it's important to, you know, make sure that your portfolio, your risk level is you're prepared just in case something else does happen. And for those who are in a lot of debt and a lot of our users might, I mean, what's the average credit credit debt in America now? I don't know. It's like $16 or $20,000 or something crazy like that. For those people who are struggling through that,

like what's the first step to try to move out of that, to move from red to black to use that terminology? My favorite thing is to increase your income, man. Increase your income. Don't lower your prices, add more value and charge more. You know, how can you increase your income? How can you get a second job? How can you create something, sell something,

get that income up, you know? Can you sell something? that you don't use, it's not making you money. Can you create something? Me and my wife always love the idea of creating your way to freedom. It's something we talk about out in the book. But like I think that's obviously you can always sell something, right, and lower. But I love, I prefer to increase the income. And that's by by creating something, selling something, adding more value. Yeah, that's cool. You know, I'm a big, I've been a big attendee of a conference It's called FinCon every year.

I haven't gotten in a couple years now with the little ones, but I went for a number of years, and it's the financial bloggers conference, FinCon. And you get around these people, and there's like thousands of people that attend this thing. And there are some really frugal people there. I mean, you guys know the Bigger Pockets Money Podcasts, right? Like Mindy is a huge part of that.

Scott's a big part of FinCon. And there are people who are just really frugal at that event. And I'm always like, like, and they're like outdo each other with like, who can be more frugal? Like, good. I make my own cups to put my water in. They're like, well, yeah, well, I make my own water. from the rain. You're like, oh, yeah, well, I make my own rain from, you know, like, it's like everyone does each other how frugal and how little they could spend. And I have always been, now, I think,

I think there is a time in place for sure for frugality. Like, if you, like, there was a time of my life where I was spending a thousand dollars a month more every month that I was bringing in because I was just buying whatever I wanted. I wasn't keeping track. I didn't have a good foundation. At the same time, I was making three grand a month spending four. Like, it probably wouldn't have been that hard for me. And it wasn't. I mean, I ended up doing it. making $4,000 a month than five. Now, I still needed to get that the foundational issue handled of I was spending more money because I didn't know what I was spending.

That was the first thing I had to do was like know what I was spending money on. And then like realizing just like that I was in control of this and all of a sudden everything changed. But yeah, like I am much more of a how do I generate more money? Because I think trying to save $5 on a latte or $20 on, you know, I'm going to save $30 a month I'm not going to Starbucks. Well, great. Or I'm going to make my own drinking water. Like, what could you build during that time?

What could you take that mental energy and go put into the world that will pay you a whole lot more? For example, like, I'm not going to invest in real estate until I get all my student loan debt paid off in the next 12 years. Okay. You do realize one house flip could pay your student loan debt off in the next three months. Like, you could do one house flip and pay off your entire student loan debt just by generating that income. Well, I don't have any money to do that. Oh, if only somebody wrote a book on investing in real estate with no and low money down. Like the answers are out there.

If you really want it, just people love to not do it. I don't know. Thoughts? Yeah. Like cutting expenses is definitely, you know, for a time, sure. You know, cut your expenses. Go through it. And you can probably find an extra $500 a month.

And we talk about in that book, if you go through everything. Like I remember we found different insurances, different things that we could lower negotiate. Yeah, you could find that extra 500 bucks. That's great. But what you can create, like you said, by doing a house flip, by getting more business. You know, reaching more people.

Like one of my favorite concepts that really changed my life was the idea, instead of selling one to one, how can you sell one to many? You know, like, sure, like, like, I'm going to use something so silly is like shoveling snow. I can walk to each door and offer to shovel their driveway, or I could walk to a business and shovel, you know, a whole bunch of businesses or something like that. Get like a bigger contract or something as opposed to just this small thinking, but think bigger, right? David, well, if you're really trying to get deep about it, this principle applies in every form of business, including real estate. So getting your expenses under control is like plugging the leaks. You don't want to keep dumping water in a bucket and having it leak out. But if water in the bucket is wealth, plug in holes isn't building it. It's just stopping you from losing it. Okay. You can you can play sports and play great defense and just hold the ball to the last second of the shot clock and shoot it at the end. And you'll do a great job stopping their team from scoring, but you won't be scoring. You can, you can play. yourself. And I see this principle apply in real estate investing as well where people look at cash

flow, like that's what's going to make them wealthy. I'm going to get rich $200 a month at a time buying all these properties and you need so many to do that. Cash flow is meant for defense. It stops you from losing the property. But like we said earlier, the wealth you're creating is typically the equity that's built in appreciation plus loan pay down over a long period of time. You'll never get through that long period of time if you lose the property because it didn't cash flow or you didn't cash flow. But playing that defense isn't building your wealth. So that's just, I hit this point a lot because you can get into making your own soap and thinking you're doing everything right and living on $35,000 a year. You're never going to hit the good life that people are looking for.

And the second piece is I would say, when you're just focusing on defense, if Chris just said, okay, I'm going to keep my expenses low, we're losing all of the unique, creativeness that we each have that comes out of you when you set a goal that you want to go achieve. So if Chris has to save $10,000, he could make his own soap for 12 years and get there, perhaps, or he could go make an awesome song that we all get to benefit, right? One to many. And now his creativeness comes out. He does something really good.

He evolves as a musician. All these other like benefits come out of the aggressive, offensive style. So please don't hear us saying don't play defense. doesn't matter. It's so does. It's the first step. You plug those holes. But don't stop at that. That's not going to get you what you want. Yeah. Yeah. That's so good, man. Like, mentality shift like completely. Like I remember driving to a show with my wife, just hoping or praying we'd sell five CDs that night, you know, and just hoping there'd be people there. Now we run Facebook, Instagram ads and can be selling 50 CDs a day while I'm in the studio. And it's just happening. And I'm not shipping it out anymore. It's delegated out. And again, this is all with like growth. and leverage and adding value. And instead of me just being in one city by going online, I'm now global, right? And it's this mentality.

And a lot of people still think local, but you've got to start thinking global. Like that's what we have, the internet and more people online than ever, right? So it's just like thinking differently with that. Yeah, that's really good, man. All right. One more of the question about the book.

In the book, you talk about some of the habits of the wealthy or the rich. I'm wondering if you can explain any of what you meant by that. Like what are some of the habits that wealthy people seem to follow? Well, one of them is reading. And I've always been, you know, constantly learning and growing. And I'm reading a really good book right now called The Slight Edge, which I really like. And it's challenging the idea of 10 pages a day and just let these small things add up to a big thing. But yet we think they're nothing, you know, reading 10 pages of something inspirational each day.

but you do the 10 pages, you know, after a long period of time, you've read all these books and you've got all these, these, these, this knowledge, right? So it's, it's constantly learning and growing. Like, I don't, you know, work out or do the dishes or go for a walk without something inspirational in these ears and mind. Like, that's my mobile university. If I'm going to the driver's license place, I got some, I'm prepared, right? Because I want to keep growing and keep learning. And just one idea, like, you know, spend like, like, you spend, like, you spend, like, you spend, like, you spend 10 bucks, 20 bucks on a book and you get to tap into a millionaire's mind for 10 or $20, right? And so like that's that's power, right? So that's one of the, one of the big habits.

Second one is of wealthy people is the idea of like who they hang around with, you know, hanging around positive people like their circle influence and hang around people that, you know, influence them. Like you show me your friends. I'll show you your wealth, you know. And it's true that if we're hanging around negative people that are always shooting down ideas, like it only takes one negative comment to destroy a great idea. So that's why we got to be careful who we share our dreams with, who we surround ourselves with, because we want people that are going to,

you know, I'm always already doubting myself. I'm already, you know, killing the optimism myself and there's fighting my own negative thoughts. I don't need haters or negative friends to pull me down anymore either, right? That's such a good point. Yeah,

I mean, because we are, like, they're like, the enemy to our success, is somewhat external. There are people that may want to drag you down, but it's also mostly up in here in our own heads. And so, yeah, try to limit those battles, like, surround yourself with people who are going to build you up and support you in that fight with your head because

you're going to need them. Like, there's times where I just feel down and I don't want to do anything. And David's like, hey, man, like, fuck up. Like, I'm like, all right. Like, and now hopefully I do the same for David. And like, and my other friends is, like, we build each other up because that's what, because we need that, because it is a battle and it's mostly a battle takes place in our head. Yeah, big time, man. Like, like this whole lone soldier trying to do it on your own. It's like, no, we need community. We need friends. We need to be around each other to lift each other up. Like we were talking about, you know, you're doing the jiu jitsu instructor. Now I've got a boxing trainer. And it's just changed my life. Like, and, you know, just by moving. And it's just these

one little ideas that we're, you know, that whole mastermind iron sharpens. iron, you know, get an idea from a bro and that, it's not just the idea, it's an idea acted upon that is, is the powerful thing, you know, and that's, that's another thing. Successful people don't procrastinate. They take massive action. Well, the people take action, you know, they don't just think about it because we all now, now successful people, I feel like now, it's like, we have so many ideas, but it's like, which one do I act upon? So now it's like, you know, but it's, it's just taking that action first. Yeah, makes sense, man. All right. Well, David, anywhere else you want to go before we head to the famous four?

The only thing I would ask you, Chris, is do you have advice for the people that want to get into a community and they don't know where to start? Or maybe like what Brandon and I get a lot is, hey, I heard you guys say that you need to increase the people you hang out with. So how can I, can I just hang out with you? Right. Someone you don't know. Like that comes up a lot. So there's a way to get yourself into that or build that community. Is there anything you can share about what you think people need to do?

Well, yeah, like I know you guys have the bigger pockets membership, right? Like, join that first. You know, get on the webinar and connect with people and be in that group of like-minded people. You know, like I have a membership area of artists where I coach every month. And like they might not, they get access to me twice a month. But then I always say, connect with each other. Yeah. I always say that. Connect with each other. Exchange emails. Encourage it. Feature on each other's songs. Like, I think it was Brendan Bouchard had a face. Facebook live again. And he always talks about his membership and stuff. And it's like, who do you think you're going to meet there? You know, when I went to funnel hacking live with click funnels and stuff, like some relationships and stuff. Like Brandon, that's how I met you at. Yeah, at the event. Money investors, right? And we found a common thing with surfing and faith and different things. And, you know, a relationship is start. But it's by getting out. And I know we can't right now because of COVID to some extent, but go online. And, you know, I have another friendship that where I literally paid for his coaching, got to know him, and now he's like one of my best

butts. You know what I mean? So it's just like, like if you want to be around people, like, dig out. Be around people. Hire the coaching. Yeah. Be around people. Yeah. That can be the quote of the day. Like if you want to be around people. Be around people. Like it's like, be intentional about it. Like actually really. I'm going to make a t-shirt that says that. What I like when people take that approach, what I like the most is instead of someone going to, I mean, it's good to go and say, hey, I want to accomplish this. can you help me? There's nothing wrong with that. It's better to go to someone and say, what do you want to accomplish and how can I help you? That tends to open the door to get now

that person even wants to hang out with you. And I'd say that's the mistake a lot of people make is they go, well, Brandon and David said, I need to do this. So, hey, can you do this with me? And you didn't bring any value to that person. Don't be a take or be a giver. Like go to give. How can I help people? And that came from the idea with the online courses. It's like, how can I serve people? How can I connect people and, you know, offer a connection of some sort as opposed to like, what can I get out of this person, right? Like, yeah, so good. Absolutely. All right. Well, let's move on to the last segment of our show. It's time for our famous four. All right. So, let's get to the famous four. Chris, the same four questions we ask you every guest every week. So number one, what is your all time

favorite real estate related book? Well, besides rich dad, poor dad, I'm going to say, I read this book, in Mexico last year and it's money people deal by Stefan Arneo. Rest in Peace. I really like that. He's a Canadian guy, but I found him through like Grant Cardone and different stuff. And sadly, he just passed away. But I really dived into his stuff, just his story about, I don't know if he's a triplex or something like that, but his stories were so good.

And he got into this deal. The contractor did them wrong and it took longer, way over budget, spent all his money and he was always like the suit business guy and uh it turned out just to save this deal so he didn't lose his shirt he had to like end up putting on overalls and he showed up every single day until that property was freaking done and and he got it got it done and just i don't know just sort kind of a not a rags to riches story but it inspired me that's awesome isn't it cool that the stuff we tend to like the most isn't necessarily the best content but it's the best story no no seriously stories matter so much yeah yeah they do all right so

what's your favorite business book? I mentioned it earlier. I'm going to mention it again just because it really inspired me. It was a millionaire messenger by by Brennan Breschard because I got it for 50 cents and I'd say it's made me over a million dollars. Yeah. I've not read that one from him. I have high performance habits, which I've read probably four times.

That one's awesome too. Yeah, Millionaire Messier. I also have the manifesto one. What's it called the something motivation? No, motivation manifesto. It's motivation manifesto is fascinating because it's written like a, it's like a manifesto like Declaration of Independence. It's like we find these truths to be self-evident. Like the whole book is written that way. It's unlike any book I've ever read. But anyway, Brendan is an awesome

dude. We're actually, we're in chatting with him to get him on the show. I mean, he wants to. We just haven't nailed down specific yet. So we'll get there. Yeah, we'll get Brandon on the Bigger Pockets podcast because he's a cool guy. All right. Thanks for sharing that. What are some of your hobbies. Surfing, skateboarding, and now, now boxing. Not because I want to fight, but just because it's fun hitting things. And it's also getting me in shape, man. And my wife's freaking exhausting. It is what it is. Yeah, dude. This is going to sound super lame. But have you ever done the boxing on the Oculus quest, like on a virtual reality boxing game? No, I'm not. It's the best workout you can do like on a virtual reality game. I've done a lot of different workouts in my Oculus, because I have an

Oculus Quest, but like the boxing games, there's one called Thrill of the fight. Like, you are just pouring sweat. So I'm assuming if you're actually hitting something, it's even better. So that's, oh, dude, it's so good. It's so good. And then my trainer's like, he's like, okay, man, you're just gonna, you got to try and hit me. Like, seriously, like, full out try and hit me. And like, this is like, I'm just learning, right? So I'm lining like, okay, like, you like, really? You want me to try and hit you dude. And like, so I started trying. I got him once in the in the stomach. He's like, oh, you're, you're listening. But then he went at me like to like back. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, tap out. That's funny. It's like. That's awesome. All right. My final question then.

What do you believe separate successful real estate investors and anybody successful from those who give up, fail or never get started? Man, um, resilience, perseverance and taking action, you know, you just got to take action. You got to get in the game. You got to, you got to get in the game. to start, you know, me and my wife, like, this one condo that did so good at like more than doubled in appreciation. I'll never forget her saying, we should have got two of those. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, should have got three of those. It's like, and that's like, feels like I should have got, should I went more all in? Like just, you know, just go all in and start. Yeah. So that's funny you say that. It's totally unrelated, but I'll say this anyway.

When I moved to Hawaii, we had a house in Grace Harbor, Washington where we lived. And when we bought it, it was the most expensive house in town. It was like $280,000. And it was like, it was like, it really pushed me to buy that house. I mean, like, it stretched me to buy it. So then we sold it, you know, two and a half years later, whatever, for three, it was three hundred and 80,000. Right when I moved to Hawaii, I sold it. At the time, we were debating, should we keep it? Should we keep it? Should we sell it? We're like, let's sell it. We're like, top of the market, 380 we got for it. We're like, we made a hundred grand. And then it went on the market again, the people who bought it from us now, two years later, just put on the market for like $5.95 or

something. And I'm like, what? Like, so much money. Like, if I would have held it, like, two more, there's no way of knowing that. But yeah, it's, they always say, I've heard that many old real estate investors say, I regret every deal I ever sold. And now I'm like, I regret every property ever sold. And now I'm like, yeah, I regret. I regret most, there's one that I just hated. But even that one, 20 years from now, I'll probably be like, I could have survived. I could have held that one and had a quarter million dollars. That's true. Oh, man, that's so good. You never, ever, ever hear someone that's done it for 30, 40, 50 years that are like,

man, I really wish I would have sold that thing in the 70s. Dude, that's good, man. That's so much wisdom in that right there. Like, it's so true. I can think of another conno that we like wish we didn't sell. And we sold it before. And then, like, we had it for years, actually. It was the first conno.

The one we moved into. And then we sold it. And literally like two or three months, the market just goes, poof. and I'm just like, but we had it like, oh, you just don't know. Yep. I also have never heard a person who bought a house that didn't think it was too expensive when they were buying it. That's the other piece, right?

Brandon, you said that in your story. It's always expensive. This is the most expensive house in town. I could never, I mean, every single time people say, well, isn't the market going to crash or when it's crashing? Isn't it going to go down more? It's all the way down. Well, how long should I wait for it comes back?

There's always a reason not to buy real estate. And even though we're experienced, I tell myself this all the time. I'm looking at new houses now and they're, they're expensive. They're somewhere between 1.5 and 1.8 and I have those same thoughts in my head and I fight every day. Nope, shut up, David. When it's worth $3 million, you're not going to be worried about the fact it was worth

1.5. You know, that's a struggle everyone has to go through in this game and just got to remind yourself that holding it for a long period of time is the best thing you could do. Yeah, man. Cool. Chris, where can people find out more about you? They can find me on Spotify, if they look up manifest as far as music-wise or my website Manifest.com, M-A-N-A-F-E-S-T-com.

And we're on YouTube, a bunch of our music videos and songs and stuff, and go check out some stuff. Very cool. I also really like your music before we ever interviewed you. I've been listening to it for a long time. So I'll throw in my seal of approval there. Yeah, I'm not going to like, when I met you in Nashville, I was fan girl in a little bit. It's all right. You know, I might not have made it.

I didn't want to make it seem that way at the time, but I was like, call my wife later. I'm like, you have no idea who I just met. So, you know, it was a big deal. That's so funny. Yeah, you're a good musician and good friends. So appreciate you. The book, Red to Black, where do they get it? Yeah, you can go to Manifest.com forward slash from Red to Black or just Manifest.com.

It's free. Actually, just pay the shipping and handling. You'll be in our little funnel there or whatever. But yeah, perfect. I want to get this message out there. Love it, dude. Well, thank you. Appreciate you and appreciate all the help you've given me over the last couple years of

it's been talking regularly. It's been nice just to get to know you better. Yeah, you too, man. Hope to visit out there and hang out. too long. Yeah, we'll go surfing. You can show me how good you are compared to how bad I am. I don't believe that. All right. Take care. David, you want to go us out of here? Thank you very much, Chris. This is David Green for Brandon Fandgirl Turner. Signing off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small.

If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the height, you're in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K, copywriting is by Calico content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing, or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.w.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk.

So use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. Bigger Pocket's LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential, or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.