BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 471: What Michael Jordan and Kobe Taught Tim Grover about "Winning"

Episode Date: May 23, 2021

We like to think that we have a lot of winners on the BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast, whether they are in real estate or not. We may have one of the biggest winners on today's show. Tim Grover, trainer to Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant joins us to talk about overcoming adversity, developing a winning mindset, finding what makes you fail, and his new book, accurately titled Winning: The Unforgiving Race to Greatness.  Tim argues that one of the hardest things to succeed in is business since there are so many factors that influence success. When you own or run a business, you’re constantly being thrown curveballs (like a global pandemic tied with government shutdowns). So how do you succeed when there is a constantly changing game plan? You adapt, you overcome, and you mitigate failure. These are the exact lessons that Tim taught to his high-profile clients, like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, arguably the two greatest basketball players of all time. Before MJ and Kobe became the best, they had to master being average, then being good, then being great. So many people want to take shortcuts to greatness, not understanding that mastering those different levels is what truly puts you on a different stage than those who master the average level and give up. In This Episode We Cover: What really holds people back when they say they want something Focusing on recovery and health before trying to up your abilities Becoming a constant reminder to others to win and shoot for success How to stop performing with emotion and start performing with energy Stop confusing “finishing” with “winning” Struggling with balance when succeeding in your career, family life, or anything else And So Much More! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Pro Membership BiggerPockets Youtube Channel BiggerPockets Podcast 433: You Get Your Standards, Not Your Goals: Ed Mylett on Success, Faith, and Building $100M+ Businesses BiggerPockets Podcast 457: How Thinking 5 Moves Ahead Can Make You Millions with Patrick Bet-David Brandon's BiggerPockets Profile Brandon's Instagram David's BiggerPockets Profile David's Instagram Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/show471 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 471. A lot of people can adapt, but do you have the ability to overcome? That's the thing. Adapting just means, all right, I'm settling for what's going on now, and I'm just trying to survive. And there's too many people that are just trying to survive, to survive in business, survive in life. Listen, you're not here to survive. You're here to thrive. And in order for you to thrive, you have to figure out a way to overcome.

You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio. simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on to Vonnis, Brandon Turner, host of the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host, Mr. David,

Always Winning Green. What's up, David Green. What a phenomenal show we're about to do. Man, I am just so full of something. I don't know what to call it. Last time I felt this way was when we interviewed Edmyslet where you just feel like you could just run through a brick wall and you want to. Our guest today has that ability to make you feel that way. Yeah, we just got finished recording. We're just in the introduction right now. But this show is so full of good stuff. I joked afterwards. I wanted to like run inspirational music through the entire episode because it's like one of those like you just want to like run. So our guest today is Tim Grover. If you're not familiar with Tim Grover, he is the, he even said, says, in the interview about trainer is the wrong word, but the guy who helped sports enhancement specialist. Sports enhancement helps Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, and a whole lot of other people become who they are. In fact, the cover of Tim's new book, he's got a book called Winning. It is phenomenal. That's our quick

tip for today is to pick up a copy of his book. But the cover of his book has this quote from Michael Jordan. Yes, the Michael Jordan. Tim Grover was by my side for 15 years and knows more than anyone about building winners. This book is essential for those who want to be the best at whatever they do and are willing to pay the price to get there. So whether you want to be the best at real estate investing, at entrepreneurship, at being a good husband, wife, father, mother, whether you just want to have a really good looking garden. Whatever it is, you want to be the best at, this interview is going to help you get there. I think you're going to like it a lot. So, man, it's just so good. Tim is also the author of another book called Relentless. You may have read that one with a huge

book from a few years ago. Bestseller. Yeah, bestseller. Yeah, bestseller. very, very popular book, and he's got a new one now called Winning. So that's a wrap for the intro. Anything else you want to cover here, David? This guy, Tim Grover, for all of you listeners out there that may not have heard of him, we're talking about a person that takes Lamborghinis and makes them work better, right? There's a handful of people in the entire world that can do what Tim does and has had the experience. How many people would say, I'd love to sit down and have a lunch with Michael Jordan and pick his brain? This guy spent years with not only Michael Jordan, but Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade, the top athletes in the world.

imparting into them and pulling out of them, right? Like how much did Tim get from working with people like that? And now he's bringing it to us and our audience to help everybody here, regardless of what your goals are, regardless of what game you are playing, and regardless of what winning means to you, to teach you how to do it better. Tim, if you're listening,

thank you very much for doing the show and for bringing your A game. You easily could have showed up and just slacked off and treated it like it was a scrimmage, but that wouldn't be what a cleaner does. Yeah, that's not what Tim does. Make sure you guys listen also. If you're like only can listen to half this interview right now because you're on a commute and you're going to get out of the car, please listen to the entire thing. The last half, the last even 15 minutes are so life changing and emotional to a degree that I don't think we've ever quite done on the show before.

So I think listen for that. Stay tuned. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. that means you can stop struggling to get your job notice on other job sites.

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Next time, we're going one. All right. Well, then you don't know if I'm cutting up or down. I got to start on two because then you know I'm cutting down. Otherwise, it's a mess. All right. Let's get, for those who don't know who you are, let's go into a background. I mean, you worked with a lot of big people.

I mean, I got a whole introduction here. I could read, but I want to know from your world. Like, who are you? Like, what do you do? Well, my official title, when I was training the majority of the professional athletes, I had to come up with something because I just didn't like trainer. I was like, I spent too much time in school to be just like, labeled as a trainer.

So I came up with a sports enhancement specialist, which is taking athletes at the highest level and making them even better. I don't quite do as much as that now. We still consult for a lot of teams, but I'm more in the mindset space. And what I do now is teach people the ability to understand and see what winning is all about. And do you find there's a lot of connection between the sport world and the,

you know, business or just mindset world? Oh, 100%. I mean, listen, I think it's actually even more competitive in the business world because, listen, you go to the sports world. Let's say NFL football. They play one game a week. Sometimes two, if they got to play on a Thursday. You literally have scouts play books of the other.

You know what the other team's going to run. You have people watching. You know their offenses. You know their defenses. And you have a whole week to prepare for it. Think about it in the entrepreneur space and the business space. You can literally wake up and have to have a brand new game plan of because something happened in the world, which obviously we know it already did happen or something happened

in your life. So you have to be able to adjust and pivot and be able to understand and move with these different things as quickly as you do. And to me, yeah, a professional athlete may be competing from a physical standpoint, but from a mental standpoint, we're all competing. And the people in the business world actually have to compete from a mental standpoint more often and more frequently than the professional athlete. That reminds me if like all of a sudden like the NBA announced, hey, by the way, there's

now four baskets today. You're going to have to plan four baskets instead of two. Like the entire landscape could change. That doesn't happen in sports. but yeah, business like overnight. Oh, by the way, that doesn't work anymore. By the way, that policy changed. Oh, the government changed their tax thing.

Oh, by the way, there's a pandemic. So definitely I can see that is the ability to adapt to those situations in business is probably just as severe, if not more, than sports. Well, not only adapt. I mean, a lot of people can adapt, but do you have the ability to overcome? That's the thing. Adapting just means, all right, I'm settling for what's going on now, and I'm just trying to, just trying to survive. And there's too many people that are just trying to survive, to survive in business, survive, survive in life. Listen, you're here to, you're not here to survive. You're here to thrive.

And in order for you to thrive, you know, not only do you have to, you have to adjust and you have to, you have to figure out a way to overcome. You have to figure out a way to overcome. I think that that's never been more relevant, maybe 2010, but other than that than right now in the real estate space. where the rules of the game are changing so fast. The environment is changing so fast. The way a deal looks is changing. I mean, if you go and you watch film of the NBA in the 90s, they're playing a game so radically different than what these guys are.

I mean, basketball is basketball, but you'll see guys take the ball into the middle and just jump and in midair get shoved across the key. And that was just, oh, normal, that's a foul, right? You do that now. You're out of the game. They're talking about you on Sports Center. They're probably trying to cancel you on social media for violence. It's completely different than what guys were doing before.

And so the way that you played the game had to be different. You want a different body types. You want a different strengths, profiles. You had different offenses you would run. A good shot in that environment looked different than what it's like right now. And the teams that are winning are the teams that adapt and overcome. So that's what I love about what we're sort of facing with COVID-19, with technology and the role that it's playing and how business is done today than before. And the reason we love having people like you on Tim is you.

basically made your career out of helping people understand, like, this is the way you need to think. Kobe Bryant thought like this. Michael Jordan thought like this. They didn't care who was on the other side of the court from them. They were going to do things this way. And the people that can sort of take that mindset on themselves are the ones that are going to win. It just doesn't matter what happens with COVID-19. It doesn't matter what happens with the industry. It doesn't matter what happens with whoever the president is. You figure out a way to adjust to those rules and then you overcome. You know, I want to get into your background in a minute here,

but before I do, the question I kind of want to ask you is, for people who say they want it, but they don't actually make that choice, whatever it takes, that's what I'm going to do. Have you noticed a common theme or a pattern in what holds them back from doing it? Well, yeah, a lot of it is when they say, they want, what do you want?

It's too vague of a thing. What do you want? All right? And people say, I want more money. I want more success. Okay, here, I'll give you an extra. Now you just made more money. Congratulations, you won.

All right. Now, what actually do you want? I get athletes all the time and business people that work with me that says, I'll do anything until they find out what my definition of anything is. Well, and it changes is people look for that, where they say, I want it. Define what you want and then understand. Do you have the ability? Do you have the know-how?

Do you have the knowledge to get in that chase? Because once you say you want something, all right, now you're going to get in that chase. And are you going to be able to chase whatever you're winning? What happens is people love to go straight from average to great. And I'm like, you can't do that. All right. This is what has to happen. before you can everybody says chasing greatness i'm chasing greatness i'm chasing greatness well hold on

before you chase greatness have you caught and mastered average and then after you catch and master average then you got to go chase and master and catch good then you can start chasing greatness so when people say i want it they want to go right to greatness without knowing well Before I get to greatness, before I become great at whatever I need to do, I have to master these steps here. It's the fundamentals of the mindset, just like there's a fundamentals of a basketball game. You know, in my book winning, I talk about every single practice. You know, you can debate, in my mind, there's no debate about who's the greatest basketball player ever. But every single practice, Michael Jordan started each practice off with a chess pass.

a basic chess pass. Well, he goes, this is the foundation of the game. This is the game at its most average level. And I must be able to master this today, tomorrow, five years from now, all right? You got to keep doing those things over and over again. Then you start to, then it becomes clear of what actually you want. Because what you want up here may be completely different than what you want in here.

What you want in here may be completely different than what you want in here. You know, I had a story. I think I've shared it before where my high school basketball coach, his dad was the head coach at University of the Pacific in California, a Division I College. And we had a really, really rough practice where guys just, I think it was really something as simple as we were missing a lot of shots, which typically coaches don't care if you miss shots as long as you're taking good shots

and you're doing the money medals. but this guy had just got done playing in college and he had a higher standard. And so he lined us all up and he said, okay, who in here at the beginning of the year said they wanted to be a better shooter? And we all raised our hands. And he said, okay, put your hand down if you left after practice yesterday. And me and one other guy were the only ones that kept our hands up. And he said, all right, so how does this whole team tell me that you want to be a better shooter, but only two of you stayed after practice to work on shooting yesterday?

And he lined us all up and he ran us until we puked. It was miserable. But it really, it set something off of me. This was actually the first blog I ever wrote for Bigger Pockets was about this. And it's the difference between wanting something and just liking to have it. There's a, if you want it, you would stay after practice to work on shooting. That seems very obvious. Everybody in there didn't want to be a better shooter.

But if the shooting fairy was going to touch them on the head and bestow them with the ability to shoot, they would take it. Okay. And I think that language is really important. Tim, what I'm hearing you say is, if you're not doing these things, it might be that You need to look at yourself and just say, I don't really want it. You don't. And here's the other part. Be careful what you want.

Be careful what you want. Because I always say this. The reason people don't get to what they want and they're not successful is because they're afraid of what success looks like, what it actually means, what it actually takes to get there, and what it actually means to hold that win. Briefly. Think about all the professional things. professional organizations that win one year that don't win again the next year.

You know, they all want to, they all want to win that championship again. They all want the Super Bowl. They all want the, you know, the NBA title. They all want those things. But like you said, you just can't waive that. You just can't wave that one. So what you wanted and achieved earlier, that doesn't matter on what. What's new.

You know, in your line of work when you guys do the real, yeah, you can close a deal one way. But what you said earlier, Dave, closing that next deal or the way you close deals now is totally different to what it was in the past. So yeah, you won on an investment or you won on a deal earlier. That doesn't mean you're going to win the exact same way on this one. You may not win at all. And we hear this a lot. We hear people complaining about the fact that we'll hear there are no good deal. out there. And I think to Brandon and I, what we hear is someone playing basketball saying, man,

there's just no good shots out there. The defense is just too good. I just, there's no way to get open. I should just go sit on the bench until the defense stops guarding me. And the reality is you just need to sort of adjust your expectation of what a good deal is and adjust your strategy of how to get one. And we're really just beating this drum quite a bit because it's too easy to tell yourself something like there's not a good deal out there or the market's too hot. I don't want to play. The competition's too great. Why should I get in there? What I was just telling my team, I run a real estate brokerage here and we have 38 houses in contract. We legit have 150 buyers right now. There are not enough houses for all the people we have. The inventory is so bad. And what I was telling

them at our meeting last night is the reason that everybody is struggling right now is you never had to be this good of an agent to close deals. It was not that hard. to work with the buyer. Traditionally, the buyer comes. You have a little talk. You hold their hand. You ask them what they like. You show them the tile.

Backsplash they want. They buy the house. Well, now you basically have to have a conversation where you say you're not competing with the seller. You're competing with 11 other buyers that are probably bringing cash that have been, that have swung and missed on four deals and they're tired of it. And they're going to do whatever it takes to get that deal. And if you're not walking in with that same mentality that you wanted as bad as

them, let's not do this. Let's not get in the cage and have a cage fight if you're not committed to a fight. That's not where you want to be. And agents have never had to have a conversation that hard with somebody before. And that's why there's a struggle. What I was telling them is if you get your skill level up to where it needs to be to win in this environment, when this passes and we get into a semi-regular market, it's going to feel easy. It's going to be like you're cleaning up with the practice squad type of a thing.

And I just, I love that, Tim, you preach this message constantly. I've listened to many interviews you've done. I've never once heard you say, well, the answer is, you got to drop your standard sometimes. You got to lower your expectations when things are too tough. You know what? You brought up a great point here. We've heard this over and over again.

Michael said, I practiced so hard so the games were easy. The harder I practice, the easier the games were. Now, what's going on in your line of work is, and I talk about this in a book, winning, winning makes you different and different scares people.

So what happened is before everybody knew what to think. You had the blueprint. You were like, okay, this is how you close a deal. This is how it's done. You get this big 2,000 page booklet when you get your license or whatever it is and you read it and you read it and read it. But now the people that are winning, they know how to think. not only do they know what to think,

they know how to think. And there's a huge difference between the two. And you have to be able to do both. You have to be able to do both. You look at the booklet, you understand what the rules and the regulations are. Those are the standards. But having the ability now to adapt in this environment

and adapt with a competitive nature and the winning nature, not just competing, winning. Because a lot of people are in the game And they're competing, but very, you said, less numbers are actually winning. The ones that are winning, they know how to think. They have their individuality. They have their creativeness.

They know how to trust their, they know how to trust their instincts. They know how to throw in more than just a back splash. And so I want to ask you, Tim, you worked with Michael Jordan, most consider the best to ever do what he did in a league where you get highly compensated for being good at what you do. So it draws a lot of talent into that world. It's not like he was the best underwater basket weaver than anybody had seen. What did you do to make it easier for Michael when he was in the game when you worked him out in practices? Well, the first thing I kind of, I'm going to go back to the real estate thing. No matter how beautiful the house is, building, whatever you guys are, whatever you guys are dealing with, you know, five flat, 10 flat, whatever units is.

How important is the foundation? Yeah, key. Extremely important. So what we did was we always emphasize the foundation because no matter how, yeah, everybody wants an athlete to jump higher. They want them to run fast. They want them to run faster. They want them to move quicker. Well, if the foundation isn't good, those things are never going to happen. So my first goal with him and all the individuals I've worked with is let's minimize your injuries. Let's develop the foundation so it's so strong.

And I worked on different areas that nobody would pay attention to. We would literally spend 20 minutes after each workout just working on the muscles that stabilize the ankles. Because if you get sprained ankles, you're not going to be able to perform well. You know, groin strains, hamstring issues, all these little things, all the nuances that nobody wanted to pay attention to. would literally take each finger and work and, you know, obviously Michael had these massive hands to be able to do things with the ball. But the bigger the hands were, the more susceptible of all they were to getting hit and the fingers were getting jammed.

So, you know, doing exercises to minimize those things, you know you're not going to be able to eliminate any kind of injuries, but able to decrease those chances will automatically make you a better player, or automatically make you a better athlete. then once we were able to understand those things and address those, now let's work on making you run fast. Let's make making you jump higher. Let's make you be able to cut a little bit faster. But again, with those things, I've never driven a car that just has gas that just says go, go, go. It has brakes too.

So one of the things that know a lot of individuals don't pay attention to is if you need to goal, you also have to have equal amount of stopping power. And that was another thing that we really put and we really put emphasis on. Say, okay, Michael, before we work on making you, and this is with all mathies, before we make you jump higher, well, let's work on absorbing the force first of that height of that jump. So what we would do, everybody down trains where they jump up on boxes. They do up on, we did the opposite. And I still do this well, Maxx.

Let's jump down. Let's teach you how to absorb the force first, because you have to absorb the force more in your game than you actually have to do to apply it on the maximum level. How many times do you see an athlete in any sport in football that a quarterback uses his maximum strength to throw a football? Or in basketball, he uses his maximum strength. maximum vertical to shoot a shot or go up for a dunk or go up for a rebound.

They don't. So let's work on the brakes on the maximum level, on the level in between, on a level a little bit lower, and that will translate into a better athlete. Yeah, you know, when you think about the times when in our own games or when we're watching athletes, when they're playing the best is when they've been consistently doing it. The beginning of the season is never the best stuff to watch, regardless of what the sport is. It's when they hit their rhythm. And the best teams are trying to hit their rhythm going into the playoffs, basically.

They want everything meshing. So that's a really smart thing to highlight that preventing injury, preventing maybe mental burnout, that might be the equivalent when it comes to other goals people have. If you just go 16 hours a day, you never hit the breaks, you're going to hit that point where now you just don't do anything. You're out of the game. Your skills weakened. It takes you a while to get back into it.

a lot of success is just that consistency. And I think that's what you're getting at, Tim, is you recognize in order for Michael to be great, he's got to be doing this consistently. How many times do you guys get this question, all right? When you're at your seminars, you're doing your podcast.

What's the one thing? Boy, I wish it was that simple. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, before we got organized on this thing, how many different things do we go through? Hey, this is going to be the finger count here.

You may see the computer go up and down. You have this. You have done. You guys just, say this is the one thing that's going to make this podcast unbelievable and people are always looking for that just like they just want to go to that one it's not that easy if it was that easy everybody would winning everybody would be doing these things you know it's the it's the consistency of doing things over and over and over again and doing them with a purpose you know you

can fall into a routine the pandemic it forced a lot of individuals to change their routines, almost everyone. And for some, that wasn't a good thing. For others, they needed to do that because they were in the wrong routine. And a lot of times your wrong routine isn't a physical routine. It's a mental, it's a mental thing. It's how you think. It's how you approach things.

You know, I dislike it when you ask an individual, how you doing today? I'm okay or I'm good. Is that what you're going to settle for? are you really going to settle for okay? Are you going to really settle for good? Because if that's the majority of where your mind is going to be, those are the results you're going to get. You're going to get okay results.

You're going to get good results. When somebody asked me how my day is going, I said, I'm having a great day or I'm having a fantastic day. Because the pressure I put on myself to have that great day is a constant reminder to other individuals. And when you tell people you're having a great day, it uplifts those individuals too. Something that is fascinating to me about Michael Jordan. He's just one of those people that no one ever gets tired of watching them.

There's something about that human being that is captivating. It just draws your attention. And it's hard to put your finger on sometimes. Even when he's playing with Looney Tunes. Can't go away. I noticed this when we watched the last dance, right? You got to revisit all those cool memories that you had. He was not always the most popular person with his teammates.

and with the people that he played for. And I'm imagining with other people in the league. You never hear a person that doesn't say, I didn't respect Michael Jordan. I mean, I think 100% of human beings would say I respected him more than anyone, but he wasn't always liked.

And as I watched it, I sort of was struggling with this feeling of, well, in order to be that good at something, does that mean I'm not going to be liked by more and more people? Now, I'm probably going to be loved and esteemed by the people who are trying to do the same thing as me.

Okay, I bet you Scotty Pippen got along really good with Michael Jordan, because in a way, their work ethic was similar, their goals were similar. But if you're that person who just wants to be in the league and you don't really care if you win a championship or not, Michael's probably driving you nuts because he's just on you every... You're affecting his chance to accomplish his goals,

and he's kind of elevate you to where you're at, right? I wanted to kind of ask you, Tim, do you see this same phenomenon in other things in life where somebody who's really set out to accomplish something great, has a hard time getting along with other people, even if that's not their intention? Yes, you know what? Again, we got a great topic about this in a book. Winning isn't heartless, but you use your heart less. Yeah, your mind has to be stronger than your feelings.

Michael's mind was about winning, about winning, all right? And sometimes you have to alienate people's feelings about that. You don't remember what he said. He goes, winning has a price. leadership has a price. You know, I always say, every morning we have a decision. We got a decision. You can either get out of bed or not get out of bed, all right? Your mind makes you get out of bed. Your feelings tell you to stay in bed.

Right. Yeah. You know, feelings make you overthink things. You over analyze you. You're kind of like, you know, oh, I don't know if this is right. I may hurt this person. I don't know if this is the right time to do this. You get all those things.

Feelings make you overthink things. Your mind makes decisions. Your mind makes decisions. And majority of the people don't want to make decisions. They want to make suggestions. They want to make suggestions. And your mind, it can handle disappointment and failure. It handles disappointment and failure.

you learn from it, you forget about it, and you move on. What do your feelings do? You hold on to it. You just, the one thing, the most successful individuals, sports, business, teaching, whatever you want to say, they have the shortest memories. They don't forget, they don't forget, but they don't constantly think about it. and if you want to get that end result, if you want to win over and over and over again, you're most likely not going to be the most liked individual out there.

But would you rather have more victories and more wins? Or would you rather have more friends? And if you decide to have more friends, those friends combined are going to have less victories and less wins. Because the people that understand you, they're going to be like, oh, I get it. The definition of winning really plays a role in this. Because if we're talking about just basketball games, it's easy to write that off and say, well, there's other things in life more important. But I wanted to ask you about we had Patrick and Matt David on our podcast.

And I was listening just yesterday, I think, to a video he made that he was talking about you and a conversation that you had with your daughter. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. But to sum it up, basically, your daughter was watching you getting ready to leave. And she said, Daddy, why do you have to go? And you said, well, Daddy has to put food on the table. And you heard one of the hardest things you've ever heard of human being say. And she said, well, Daddy, if I eat less, can you stay home more? And we're talking about feelings.

I can only imagine what that would do to any good father, just have just rip through somebody and bring him to their knees with guilt. But you still made the decision. I'm going because I've committed to Michael Jordan. He's committed to something great. He needs me. This is the right decision for me, my family, for our future. I think many men would let that break them, that that feeling of guilt would be so powerful that they would say, I don't want to do it.

And what I thought was monumentally insightful was that Patrick said, your daughter says, I'm glad you went, that the example you set for her, while in the moment she didn't like it, that that helped her become a better version of herself, which was what your ultimate goal was. Now, that's my interpretation of how this went down. I'd like to get your opinion on. That's exactly what it is. I mean, obviously, you know, if this was in a movie or a feel good story, you know, dad would unpack his stuff and give a big hug and we'd go out and go get some ice cream or something like that.

It's not going to happen. And then she would know that's not genuine. You know, you have to be who you are. So this is who dad is. And it was like, if I want to sacrifice this time with her now, there better be wins for all of us. the line. And like so if you say, if you tell somebody, hey, I need two years or whatever it is to whatever you're doing, well, that two years, you better deliver in those two years and it

better be beneficial for everybody. I mean, I had the conversation with her afterwards and she goes, dad, I get it. I understand. And that was the most rewarding thing for me because I always thought that she was like, oh, you know what, she's not, she's not going to understand this thing. Because she understood what the benefit, she could see the benefits of it now. And I'm just not talking about from a financial standpoint, just how happy I was, her mindset, what I taught her, what the, understanding what the sacrifices were, and to tell her, and this was so important. Listen, you got to perform with energy. You got to perform with energy. Too many people out there perform with emotions. And when they perform with emotions, things don't turn out well. Think about

every decision you've made where your feelings have been stronger than your mind. Usually didn't turn out too well. Yeah, so that's what I wanted to ask you. You've got a lot of experience in order to help the Kobe's and the Dwayne Wade's and the Michael Jordan's. This was something you had to really dig deep in to understand. Yes. When you're facing that moment of temptation when you want to give up on your teammates because they're not getting it down. Or you want to just say, hey, let's hang. We're down by 14. It's the fourth quarter. Let's just let it go. What advice do you have for the person who doesn't have a sports background, but who struggles with something like mom guilt, where they know I need to go to work. I need to show my kids what a good work ethic

is. And they're looking to me to see what I, what do I come from and who am I? If mommy's a hard worker, then they're going to be a hard worker. If mommy makes excuses, they're going to make excuses. But the feelings are terrible. When they go out that door, they leave their kids behind. Can you share just in that moment of truth, like what you do to make the right call? There's always a battlefield that's going on in your head. There's a constant battlefield that's going on in your head. And there's bombs that are busting all the time. You know, you got there's the anger, there's a fear, there's anxiety of leaving your kids, there's the adrenaline, there's all this other stuff that's going on in there. You got to understand who's controlling that bad.

battlefield up in here. Is it you controlling that battlefield or is it guilt controlling that battlefield? Because if guilt's controlling that battlefield, is it your guilt or is it somebody else's guilt? And if that's the case, you're never going to leave the house. You're never going to set that example for your children to say, hey, society requires you not only to participate, it requires you to complete a task. It requires you to finish and it also requires you to win. Too many individuals confuse finishing with winning. There's a huge difference between the two. If you go out and run a marathon and you're not a professional marathon runner, you know, the chances of you actually winning that are zero. They're just like, it's not even, you know, people like to say, oh, I might have a chance. No, you have no chance.

You have no chance. But the example that you're setting for those individuals is if I finish this, it allows me to win at something else. So when you walk out that door, that's your finish. Now go get your win and bring back that win, bring back that win home. All right. And there's too many people stop at finish. When they stop at finish, they think, okay, I just. closed. I just got out this door. Oh, I've finished. I got, I got here. You know, I was a, I have to be able

to put the thoughts of my, of my children behind me. And now you got all these, you got all these minds, you got all this battlefield, all these stuff going on their mind that are exploding all the time that doesn't allow you, that doesn't allow you to win. At the same time, I'm guessing, though, Tim, if you harness that, that made your work with Michael that much more powerful, because like you said, I'm leaving my five-year-old at home to be here. We're getting after it. We're not half-ass on our way through a workout if I'm leaving my kids behind. And I think that when there's a power in that, that you realize how valuable your time is when your emotions have been stirred up.

And I think I don't really know how to say what I'm going. I do you see the point? I'm going to tell you right now what you're going right now, all right? And how you say this? And again, this is a thing that's in the, book and I always said the language of winning is completely different. It's completely different to these exceptional people that win all the time. When you're in that thought thought process of constantly winning, it's the gamble on yourself. It's knowing that you can gamble on yourself. And when you have the

ability to gamble on yourself, you never lack confidence. You never lack that confidence. You never lack that confidence to get that win, to deliver that end result. And with Michael, what you mentioned earlier, think about this. All right. What we do, and I do this with all, every individual I work with, from the biggest CEOs to the athletes, we don't manage time. We manage focus.

and Davey, you just said it. If I'm leaving that house, all right, in order to get that end result for my client, we need to manage focus. I'm here, you're here. Let's get after it. All right. Too many individuals manage time.

And when you manage time, the day could drag on forever. You're trying to do all these different things. Think about it when you're sitting there and you get into that zone or you get, get into that space and you look at the clock and you're like, wow, I've been at this for four or five hours and you know, you kind of lose all aspect of what time is. When you're, when you're not focus, you know, always keep looking at your clock or you got, man, I'm not to, or, you know, I got eight hours to do this project. Next, I only got four. Then he got two. Then all of a sudden, at one,

you're trying to finish it off. And what is your end result? That's not your end result. Because what I said, Remember, when you leave the house, that's your finish. Are you coming back with a win? If you're only managing time, the chances of you coming back with that win are extremely slim. If you manage focus, it increases that percentage for you to be able to do that. And with each win and each time you manage focus, you understand focus, you increase your confidence level. That's really good. Did you know, your house gets bored when you leave?

I can't actually prove that, but it probably misses out on the action. The footsteps, the late-night fridge raids. Yeah, when you're gone, your place is basically on unpaid leave. It's sitting there in the dark thinking, I could be contributing right now. Your side room wants a side hustle. Even your Wi-Fi is like, we could be networking. You're on vacation, spending money like it's a sport, while your staircase at home is fully capable of sending your income upwards.

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and get a $100 Amazon gift card. That's bill.com slash bigger pockets. Hey, you know, we're talking a lot about winning. Obviously, you know, the book is called winning

and so we're talking about winning, but on the flip side of winning is losing, right? Like, I'm curious if we can talk about the people you've worked with, whether it's the athletes, the Michael Jordan, the Kobe Bryant,

or maybe it's CEOs or people you've worked with. What do you notice different when they lose versus the average person when they lose? Is there a different trait that you find? Yeah, so Michael had this great, Michael has this great quote.

He goes, I never lost a game. I just ran out of time. He goes, I never lost a game. I haven't heard that. I love it. Yeah. He goes, I just, I just ran out of time. Listen, winning does not belong to you.

It belongs to someone else. And majority of the time, you're going to lose. You are going to lose. Winning has no loyalty to you. You can't win. without losing. All right. But what I said earlier about having the shortest memories using, not accepting winning,

but learning from it and say, hey, how can I do this to get better? You know, I know you guys love sports stories. So here's one that very few, very few people know. I have talked about it before. At the end of every basketball game, you get a stat sheet. You know, they put them in the locker room, they give it to the coaches. It has how many minutes you played, how many rebounds you used to, how many offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, points, how many shots you took, free throws, assists, all that stuff.

So when we were working with Michael, when he'd come out of the locker room, I would have a different stat sheet for him, right? He was like, I'm supposed to score points. I'm supposed to make my teammates better. I'm supposed to get assists. I'm supposed to get rebounds. What am I not supposed to do? I'm not supposed to miss free throws. I'm not supposed to miss a defensive assignment.

I'm not supposed to turn the ball over. I'm not supposed to make stupid fouls. Because he was like, don't tell me the things that I'm supposed to do if I do those things still doesn't guarantee me a win. but the things that guarantee a loss, if I can minimize those things and learn from those things, the chances of me winning are so much better. You have to learn to lose in order to win on a consistent basis. But what's happened now is you've seen this in society, and I disagree with this, but that's my viewpoint here.

You will go to events, and this was before the pandemic, and I'm sure it'll happen afterwards. The participation trophy is larger than the winning trophy. The person that participates gets acknowledged more for just participating. So these individuals don't want to participate. If you're constantly in the perpetual thing about losing, you're just, in life to participate. We're not here just to participate. We're here to succeed. We're here to have victories. We're here to win. We're here to make a better life for ourselves. But in order to do those things, you've got to put some work behind it. I'm wondering when you talk about,

you know, consulting with business owners, CEOs, entrepreneurs, things like that. Are there common problems that pretty much everyone, you know, everybody has the same three or four problems? it really diverse, like the people you work with? What are those things that's like everybody seems to struggle with these same things? And how do they overcome those? How do you coach people to overcome them? Well, the biggest thing that these individuals struggle with is balance. It's balance.

I know everybody says there's not a single individual I know out there, a successful individual that hasn't had to deal with the issue of balance or that's brought up. all right you know the story that the story that you brought up about my daughter that's a balance thing listen winning creates imbalances and what we try to do is we try to create somebody else's balance balance balance is different you don't find it you don't find balance you create it and it's different for each individual you have to create your own balance now what looks as a balanced life or somebody else may not be balanced for you. And it's funny,

once you become successful, people love to say, I live a balanced life. Well, don't tell me about now. Tell me about 10 years ago. Tell me about 15 years ago. How were you balanced back then? And what happens when you hear those words from individuals? Well, you need more balance in life. So what do we do? We add more stuff to the scale. We try. to juggle more. We try to do more stuff. Well, how do you get closer to balance? It's not the addition. You take away. You take away. You get rid of the unessentials. You know, I always say time for everything equals time for nothing. Now, you don't want the scales to be totally. You don't want one thing all the way up and you want the other thing all the way down. But it's never going to be a balanced,

scale. You know, let's take business, for example. All right, I love to use this one all the time. Who in business wants zero sales? I always ask individuals, raise your hand. Nobody raised their hands. All right. Who wants zero money? Nobody raises their hand. Who wants zero success? Nobody raises their hand. Who wants zero happiness? Nobody raises their hand. Well, what's the number on a perfectly balanced scale? zero it's a zero it's a zero all right so what does that mean you're settling for average you're settling for what everybody else goes with your your balance of happiness may be different than somebody else's balance of happiness your your happiness balance may be higher and your success balance may be lower or it could be vice versa you know you have those individuals that you talk about the

different brokers and so forth, they're maniacal about making the phone calls, making the details, making all that other stuff, and they never see their friends and they never see. That's their balance right now. Now, just because your balance is the way it is in its 20s and its 30s, it doesn't mean it's going to change in its 40s and 50s or it's going to be the same. That's why I said, you create your own balance. And I've noticed the most successful CEOs, that's something they all struggle with. They all struggle with.

Do you see a large correlation between happiness and winning? Like the people you've worked with, it was Michael Jordan happy. I mean, was, you know. I do. I do. You know, I've had this thing and I said, hey, I ask all my athletes, all my, everybody I coach, I was like, you know,

describe winning in one word. Describe winning in one word. And you get all the, and you get all these answers. The best answer I got was from Kobe. He said, winning is everything. He goes, winning is everything.

And I said, elaborate on that a little bit more. He goes, well, how do you feel when you win? I feel unbelievable. How do you feel when your kids win? I feel unbelievable. How do you feel when your family wins? The same, you know, unbelievable. Your friends, people that you root for, people that you help, all right, that

feeling of winning, you do. just you can't you can't describe it it's it's like that drug that's only available on the black market and you go through things over and over again just to get that high for yourself and for your friends and for your family it just doesn't stop those individuals and even when you have CEOs that were quote unquote retire they never stop competing they never stopped thinking about winning You know, Michael went in. I don't remember what year he retired if you want to call it the Washington Wizards years. It was, you know, whatever it is.

His shoe outsells the top five Nike top selling shoes combined. And he hasn't laced one on a pair of basketball. He still wants, he still wants to win. well he still wants to win you know the late great Kobe Bryant when he was done playing basketball he won an Oscar he wrote best-selling children's books he wanted to he was getting into you know big into the movie movie in the entertainment industry the competitive nature and wanting to win is in all of us it's in all of us we're just afraid to show it because we're worried about how somebody else is going to perceive us because it's easier to be perceived in the

middle of the pack with average and good than it is with exceptional and winners. The conversation is completely different. It's completely different. Bigger pockets in our world like this real estate investing. We talk a lot about financial freedom, right, being able to pay your bills with passive income so you can sit on a beach, right? That's like this dream. But what I was noticing in, and I, talk a lot about is anybody who can actually achieve that, anybody have ever known who's achieved that amazing, like, wow, I got all this money coming in now. They can't do that. If you can achieve financial freedom, you will never take financial freedom. You'll never take sitting on a beach

forever because, like, you have to keep winning. If you have the power to win, you have to keep winning or you're miserable. Hey, Brandon, this is funny. I'm glad you said that because, you know, people always say, oh, you need to unwind. No, I like to be wound up. I like to be wound up. For me, be unwinded. It doesn't feel good. If I'm going to unwind, I'm going to be unwound for a little bit,

and I'm going to unwind the way I want to be on. But I enjoy being wound up. You know, that's my win for me. And it's just exactly what you said. Listen, you can have that. you're like, okay, I have passive income here. Well, I'd like to have more passive income here. I'd like to have even more.

I want to continue to feel that area of winning. And what also happens is those individuals, they know how quickly things can change in a moment like that. So that fear of things that can change them doesn't paralyze them, it actually keeps them going. It's part of their fuel. It's part of their fuel. They may have fear, but they never have doubt. They never have doubt. There's a huge difference between the two. You know, you can have fear that, hey, you know what, I don't know if this is, if I should do this or not, and everybody has that, but you'd never have doubt of the outcome. Because once you have

doubt of the outcome what I talked about earlier, now I know your confidence is starting to waver in yourself or into your team. You know, Kobe would take these, you know, he was, he'd have games where he'd shoot two for 20 and that they would ask him, well, why'd you keep shooting? Because he goes, if I stopped shooting, people would know I lost my confidence. And he still wants to take the game winning shot during that, during that time, because they don't overthink those things. How many individuals, you're, you know, what Dave was saying earlier, you have. all these buyers, you have all these things going on, how many times have numerous individuals, maybe the same individual over and over again, lost numerous deals because they overthought.

And I think that when you look at guys who are great, who at the end of their careers, I feel like a lot of them, their biggest fear is, if I didn't leave it all on the court, I would have so much regret now. And there's some wisdom in that. When you look at some of the guys it came into the league really talented, but let distractions bother them. Like an Andrew Bynum or in football, I'm a Raiders fan. We had to Marcus Russell.

Oh, my goodness. Right? He's got this short window for greatness that he couldn't get focused, like what you said, he couldn't harness his focus, and that passed. And now, like, he doesn't have another chance.

That was it. And so there's a massive amount of pain and regret that that person has because they didn't want to win enough, I would say. So that's the counter. argument we don't really hear. When you hear people say, oh, you're obsessed with winning. All you want to do is accomplish this goal. You don't think about anything else. There could be times where that does need to get brought up. But there's also the fact that like how many people Brandon in 2010

should have bought rental properties and didn't know. And now that window's past. There's not another 2010 right now. Yeah. And if you had the mentality back then of I'll do whatever it takes, you would have made millions and millions of dollars at one of the best markets ever to buy property. And so I'm just sort of saying that as a counterpoint to the people that would hear this and say, well, I don't want to be a Michael Jordan. Well, you don't need to be a Michael Jordan if you don't want it as bad as he wanted it. But for Michael who wants it that bad, he would be in pain to not pursue it. He would be in pain to not play the game that way. To not give everything would have caused that person more regret.

And that's probably something this isn't understood by a lot of people. It's not. It's not, but it's understood by the people that win on a consistent basis. You know, you don't have to have that conversation. You don't have to have that conversation with those individuals. Listen, the cliches that are out there, those things actually hold people back from winning. And people love to lean on those cliches. You know, this is one that people use all the time, you know, showing up is half the battle.

No, showing up is none of the battle. It's none of the battle. All right, what do you mean? Okay, winning shows up every day. So should you. It doesn't care about yesterday. It doesn't care about today. It doesn't care about tomorrow.

All right. Now, your wins, you may not be as maniacal as Michael and Kobe and Dwayne and these individuals as, you know, Jeff Basel and Elon Musk's and all that other stuff. But you can still win in other areas of your life. It could be raising your kids. It could be for the charitable organization. It could be for the pet rescue that you work for.

It could be to have the most beautiful garden out there when people walk by and you're like, yeah, that person, that's your level of winning. That's your definition of winning. And I tell you, I don't care what people say. They always turn this into a financial thing, but there's people that win in every form and every way of life. that's their win and that's different to everybody else. You'll have people that, listen, they don't want to have a bunch of real estate properties. They don't want to. For their win is to have, they may not even want to buy because they don't want to have,

I rent a place. Yep. All right. I have a car. I have a steady job. I get paid vacation. That's their win. And people who are on the other end like,

I could never do that. I could never do that. But that's their win. And we are not to judge other people's, other people's win. What did Michael say? Listen, you never won anything, so I had to teach you how to win. And the only way I know how to win was my way. You don't have to like it, but look at the end result.

You don't have to like the way people may not like the way you guys do business. Well, they got to respect the results. I'm so glad you brought that up because, again, I think people do think when we're talking winning, their mind goes to financial or sports. But like I might not be as like, I'm not Michael Jordan when it comes to basketball. I don't even know if I'm Michael Jordan when it comes to my real estate business. But I want to be Michael Jordan when it comes to my family, to my daughter, Rosie, my son Wilder. Like I want to be that intent on being the best because I'm never going to look back at the end of my life and go,

I wish I didn't try so hard to be a good father. Like, I'm never going to say that. Like, it, my happiness in life comes from winning. And yeah, I love winning in business. I love winning that. But there's so many areas. And again, know your win. Like, where do you want to win at?

And then act like somebody who wants to win. Act like it. Live like it. Have the actions behind it. And also have the results behind it. You know, you have to have the results. If you, if this is going to be your win, you have to have the, you have to have the results.

you have to have the results. And it's crazy because when raising kids, you don't know if you did the right thing until your kid's about 40. If you get to stick around that long. You know, then you kind of be like, hey, you know what? I did do a pretty good job or, you know, until then, you have, you have no,

you have no idea talking about waiting to see the end results for the win. That's a, that's a long, long time. Yeah, so good, man. Well, I want to, I want to respect your time. I don't want to take up all your entire day here, but I do want to take a minute to talk about the book real quick. So when I read your first book, Relentless, that was your first book, right? Yes, sir. Before that.

So Relatives, it was one of the most recommended books to me from a lot of people. And I read it actually, and like while I was like running on the treadmill every day, I listened to Anaudible. And it was unreal. It was so good. And then I hear you coming out with this book. I jumped on it. I would say I like it even better than Relentless. So can we talk real quick at the difference?

Yeah, I loved winning. So what's the difference? Like, why? What was Relentless about? Then where did it go into winning? It's a continuing conversation. That's the easiest way to describe it. It's a continuing conversation from relentless to winning.

But the one thing, not everybody can have the relentless mindset. Not everybody can have that that's most people. It should be for everyone, but it's not. But winning is for everyone. In some form of your life, in some aspect of what you're doing, there are wins of to you on a daily, daily basis. The feeling, the euphoria of winning is in all of us. And I don't want to see people go through life and never have a chance to experience that.

You know, they have this all. You know, oh, greatness is in all of us. Well, I believe winning is in all of us too. But I want it to be more than in just all of us. I wanted you to be able to bring it out so you can see what it feels like. You can actually see it. You can meet it. You can greet it.

You can understand it instead of it just staying inside. Well, yeah, like I said, the book is phenomenal. It's called Winning the Unforgiving Race to Greatness. I recommend everyone pick up a copy of it. I'm going to go to the famous four here in a second. But David, any questions you want to hit it before we move on to the last segment? No, my mind is so blown right now, Tim. This is one of the best interviews we've done, man.

I appreciate you. I appreciate. Thank you for saying that because one of the things about writing this book with my co-author and my agent, Sherry Wank, was can we write a book that's not as good as relentless, but it's better than relentless. And that was winning for us. So thank you for saying that. That means a lot to me. It means a lot to both of us. Thank you.

And also David's saying this is one of you great. Now, I don't know if you just tell that to all your people because I'm going to go back and listen to the old thing. I'm going to say, man, I can't. No, I can tell. Listen. Otherwise, I can say, yeah, you know what? He is from Fresno. Now I get it.

No, you know, I was thinking something, this is my last comment, that when, so Tim wrote a book better than Relentless, which was winning for him, right? But what that really means is that I win to and Brandon wins to because now we get to read a book that makes it easy. year for us to win. And what winning was for Tim is different than winning for Brandon. We just acknowledged that. However, Tim's way of winning made it easier for Brandon to win and the thing that Brandon cares about. And really, if you think about it, that's what causes an upward spiral where everyone's benefiting everybody in the world's becoming a better place. That's what winning does. Yes, sir. Thank you, David. Listen, if I get to edit the book again, I'm going to put that in there. I might even credit you for it. Thank you so much. I love it.

Brian, David, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Before we get out of here, I do got quick four questions for you. Just a quick fire rapid section we call the famous four. I suck at this. I suck at this, but we'll go ahead. These are super simple. Super simple.

Famous four, same four questions. We ask every guest every week. So we're going to find out you. First one, is there a habit or trait you're currently working on improving in your own life? Yes. I need to let other individuals finish their sentences. I think we talked about this with Ed Milette, and he said something similar. It's hard when you know where they're going with it.

Love it. All right. Number two, David. Number two, do you have a favorite business book? Do I have a favorite business book? Yeah, it's by, listen, it's this up-and-coming author that it's been so long, it's been eight years before he wrote his next book. and his name is Tim Grover

and his co-author is Sherry Wank. It's called Winning. That's my favorite. That's my favorite business book. Hey, you're going to ask Michael Jordan who his favorite player is? I was just thinking that this news about

an eight-year hiatus and a new book coming out, the last time I was this excited is when Michael Jordan was coming back from the White Sox put on a jersey again. Which I was there for. I was there for the whole baseball or the whole baseball thing. That's cool. They're the whole,

I'm sure a business analogy we get thrown there as well, but we won't get there today. Let's go to question number. That's a cryptocurrency. All these people getting into crypto is like Michael Jordan going to play baseball. It's not going to go well. Okay. Next question.

What are some of your hobbies? As weird as this may sound, you want to see other people do well. You want to see other people. You want to see other people win because I can't even explain it. It no longer becomes a hobby. It becomes a way, it becomes a way of life. It becomes, you know, I work out. I work out on a regular basis too. So you can come, maybe you can call that a hobby, but that's something, that's more, I would say, a borderline addiction.

It's a good thing to be addicted to it. I tell individuals the same thing that all the time you're going to, we're all addicted to something. There's not, it's not, any individual that says they're not addicted to something, they're addicted to lying. I mean, you got to get your dopamine somewhere. You're going to get it in the weight room. You're going to get it in the meth lab. Yeah. You're either going to get it from being a narcissist or watching other people win.

So be addicted to the right things. Yes. Yeah. Good stuff. All right. Last question from me of the day. What do you think separates successful entrepreneurs from those who give up, fail, or never get started? If you had to really pinpoint one or two things.

If I had to pin one or two things, I would say the successful ones understand that there's There's no finish line. There's no finish line. Everyone's always looking for that finish line. All right. There is no finish line. And I'll leave you with this. And I know a lot of entrepreneurs and, you know, these gurus on social media and so forth,

always tell you, you have time, you have time, you have time. And I tell this story in the book, and no matter how many times I tell you, it's extremely difficult for me. I used to tell Kobe all the time, we don't have time. We don't have time. Yeah, but I'd say, Tim, from your perspective, and for those that don't know, Kobe Bryant passed away in a horrific helicopter accident

that just was very unexpected. I think the fact that you can know that you gave Kobe the best advice anyone could, seeing how his life turned out, is that you're not going to have that regret, as if you wouldn't have told Kobe that. And now you'd be carrying this pain around. I totally agree.

even though you're absolutely right, David, it's just it's still hard for me to say. It's still hard for me. It's hard for me to not pick up the phone and text them and be able to call him or just see what he's doing and seeing what's going on. But thank you. Thank you for understanding. You know, I've always, Kobe was a winner. There's no way around it. He just was addicted to winning at a level maybe I'd never seen in my life.

And Kobe won with his premature passing because it gave all the rest of us this understanding that you don't know how long you have. You don't know when a horrific injury is going to come or cancer is going to come or the environment's going to shift. And so you got to play every game like it's the fourth quarter and there's 15 seconds left on the court. Yes, yes, you do. Yes, you do. Because if you don't, somebody else is. Somebody else is. Well, thank you, Tim.

I mean, this has been a very, very emotionally moving. And I frankly think a lot of people listening to this have had their minds blown and their hearts moved as well. So from the Jimmy Valvano perspective, was a great podcast. We laughed, we cried, and we thought. So thank you for that. Thank you, I appreciate it. For everyone that wants to know more about you, Tim, where can they find out? Social media, the website is timgrover.com. Instagram is at Tim Grover. All right, dude. Well, thank you very much. Appreciate having you. Gentlemen, thank you so much. This was, this was a blast. Thank you. A blast in a good way. It really was. You guys make it, you guys make it real, real easy.

Now, I can understand why you've had all those guests on there. You know, Ed's a very good friend. of mine. Patrick is a, Patrick is a very good friend of mine. I get it. I get it. You guys are exceptional on what you do. Continue to be even more exceptional. Oh, thank you, man. Super nice. Thanks, Tim. All right. That was our interview with Tim Grover. Man, I remember when I told you we were getting Tim Grover and like on the podcast and you were like, what? Really? You were super pumped. And now I know why. You would watch a lot more interviews that he's done on other people's shows than I head and he is phenomenal, phenomenal speaker and just such good information. So anyway, Tim's one of those people that sort of function in a mental role in my life without ever

knowing it. I love what he says. He, I don't know, I'm on a frequency and Tim is on that same frequency. Everything he says just hits me. It resonates really well when it comes to pursuing excellence and winning and not making excuses and then getting addicted to that feeling of overcoming obstacles, like everything we're talking about in the show, Tim's just been doing this at a super high level. So I'm thrilled that. I really appreciate you bringing me on the podcast where we can have conversations like that. Awesome, man. Well, how do you think this applies to real estate investors? Like, people listen to the show that want to build a rental portfolio. I mean, we talked about a lot of stuff today and there were more analogies than a person could probably ever

even keep track of. But how does this apply to real estate? What can they take from this? I think a big one would be the objection that I don't want to be, money's not everything to me. I don't want to have everything be only about real estate or success. I want to have a balanced life. Well, that's great. That's what winning is to you. I think that Tim said something. People with passive income want more passive income, right? And that's true. However, there are some people that just want, maybe they don't want more income, but they want it to be more passive. And that's what winning is to them. You're making 30 grand a month of passive income. And your goal is to become more and more passive with less and less going on. And that's what winning is. Other people want to make more wealth to be able to impact others, give to charity, be more influential. That's what winning is to them. Money isn't the goal. It's the means to the goal. And so I just think there isn't really a scenario whether you're into fitness, whether you're into being a better father, being a better friend, whatever it may be, that this information doesn't benefit you. Yeah. Yeah. So good. I think one thing to keep in mind as well is he kind of touches the number of times. It's this concept of like, don't just know what you're going to

you want, but know what it's going to take to get it because that's the real measure of whether or not you should pursue something or not. It's not, do you want a million dollars? Do you want to be a millionaire? Do you want to have a hundred units? Do you want to flip a dozen houses a year? It's are you willing to do what it takes to do that? Because you shouldn't get into like, you shouldn't get into flipping houses or rentals or burr if you're not willing to win at it, right? Because then you're just going to lose and it's going to suck and you're going to be, you know, it's going to be terrible, right? We're only doing this to win some result. So are you willing to do the actions needed for that?

And the answer, honestly, sadly, might be no. And for many people, you should not get into real estate because you're not willing to do what it takes to win. You should just stick with your 9 to 5, set aside money in the stock market, let it go for 40 years. And you'll retire fine anyway. But if you're willing to do what it takes to win at real estate, then you will win at real estate. So that was probably the biggest lesson I could pull out of this. I think that's a great point. I didn't even think about that one.

But just do you want it bad enough to be the best? Right. Like for many, most people, the answer is no. You shouldn't be out there. Like, Brandon, should you be or you and I should we become cage fighters? Okay. If I wanted it bad enough, even at our age, we could probably get proficient in that. But I don't want it bad enough to put the work in that it would have to get there and to take on the, you know, the downside of that endeavor. So I'm not going to become a cage fighter. And that's a win. Because the worst thing you could ever do is get in the cage with somebody who wants to fight when you don't want to fight. Okay. And there's many things in life. You know, like the Bible says count the cost before you go take on an endeavor. Make sure that you are willing to see this to the end, that you have enough money to build that you're going to build. You don't want it to be halfway built and then run out of money. There's a lot of people out there that are just starting endeavor after endeavor. They're building all these bridges, but they didn't count the cost. They ran out of juice before they got to the end. Find your bridge. Find your fire, right? Like follow that and know the things that you should be following. You'll want it so bad that you will do whatever it takes. I appreciate that about you.

I don't know if I've ever told you that, and I'm going to say it publicly right now. You are relentless to use Tim's other book title, and you are good at winning. So keep it up, man. You're an inspiration to a lot of us. Thanks, Brandon. That's very nice of you to say. Well, you want to get us out of here? I'll get us out of here. This is David Green for Brandon, my win-twin Turner, signing off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype. You're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing

online. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K. Copywriting is by Calicoe Content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included involves risk. So use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should

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