BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 544: How to Craft a Vivid Vision in Your Real Estate Business w/ Cameron Herold

Episode Date: December 14, 2021

Cameron Herold developed the “Vivid Vision” format years ago, allowing not only him but other high-level business leaders to peek into the crystal ball of their futures. This vision doesn’t magically come true once you write it out, but mysteriously, those who craft a "Vivid Vision" accomplish, if not exceed, their goals for the future. No one is more deserving of a call with Cameron than J.B. Klein, our winner of BPCon 2021’s coaching call giveaway. J.B. scaled quickly over the past year to hit a respectable unit count, but he’s feeling traction slip out from under his feet. J.B. wants to ensure that his business is set up to grow if he intends to acquire many multiples of his current portfolio. To that end, JB crafted a Vivid Vision, and a team of copywriters at Conscious Copy helped turn it into a masterpiece! This call between Cameron and J.B. is a massive resource to anyone investing in real estate, regardless of business size or experience. Cameron is a highly sought-after business coach and he makes clear, direct points that any listener of The BiggerPockets Podcast can take and expand upon to make their lives more fulfilling. In This Episode We Cover: How to craft your three-year “Vivid Vision” of a future business Describing and defining your why behind business growth, passive income, and freedom Building strong relationships with your team, partners, and investors Minimizing anxiety and sleepless nights as a stressed-out leader Delegating any task that doesn’t include your “genius”  Setting up the core values of your business and sticking to them And So Much More! Links from the Show BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Youtube Channel Conscious Copy (Vivid Vision Copywriting Team) Open Door Capital BPCon 2021 Keller Williams Realty 1-800-GOT-JUNK? Invest in Your Leaders Course The Second-in-Command Podcast Harley-Davidson David Osborn's Personal Website JB's Vivid Vision Check the full show notes here: https://biggerpockets.com/show544 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 544, where we actually get to listen in on a real-life coaching call between one of my favorite authors and business leaders in the world and a bigger pockets member to talk about how to manage the chaos of just insane growth by crafting a crystal clear, vivid vision. But what you don't want to do is what you have done to get here. So what you've done to get here is kind of like the fly trying to get at the window, right? you're going to work hard. You're going to keep banging your head on the window until you get out. But there's a door.

Just take the easier path. There's a door. So no more can you work hard. Now you just have to work smart. All of your scale is going to come from you working smart now. What's going on, everyone? It's Brandon Turner, host of the Bigger Pockets podcast, at least usually, and previously the host of the Bigger Pockets podcast.

But today I'm actually not hosting, and neither is David. In fact, I'm here alone right now doing this introduction. But in a second, I'm going to hand the podcast. microphone completely over to Cameron Harold. If you know Cameron Harold, he is the author of a number of books, but one that made a big impact on my life is called Vivid Vision. In fact, I have my vivid vision hanging on my wall right now. And that book just changed the direction of my life, helped me craft everything that I've built at ODC, Open Door Capital that I've done, was all started from my vivid vision. And so I've been kind of like championing it and proclaiming

this for the last several years. I'm sure you've heard me before. And then this year at BPcon, We actually did a contest where a member of, you know, at Bigger Pockets at the conference, was able to enter a contest. I mean, a lot of it entered it to win a actual coaching call with the author, Cameron Harold, where he helps somebody who is going to help somebody create their vivid vision. And that's what today's episode is. It's a recording of their coaching call. Now, I don't know about you, but I find these things so helpful.

When you can hear other people that are similar to you learn like from somebody who's an expert, it's like I love listening in on other people's coaching calls because it It changes me. Like, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's not applies to me. This is why I can do it for my life. So if you don't have a vivid vision yet or you don't know what it is or even you do have one, but maybe you need to retweak it a little bit. This show is for you.

So all that and more coming up. But first, let's get today's quick tip. Today's quick tip. I know we don't always do quick tips anymore, but I got a good one today. So here's the deal. So Cameron actually has a course on leadership. And Cameron was actually C-O of 100 Guy Junk. And he's a phenomenal.

leader, I guess, and he teaches people how to be leaders. And anyway, he's got a whole thing. Of course, Kevin, actually, our producer at the podcast, has taken the whole thing and said it's worth every penny. And I plan to. So you can find that course, by the way, at biggerpockets.com slash Cameron, C-A-M-E-R-O-N. So make sure you guys check it out if you think that being a better leader could help you out.

So that's today's quick tip. Now, basically, again, we cover, this whole episode is going to cover a lot of stuff. But you can find all the resources, links to it all by going to biggerpockets.com. that show 544. That's BiggerPockets.com. So show 544. You can also leave comments there, ask questions, et cetera. You can learn more about the copyrighters who actually helped J.B.,

who's our guest today. His name is J.B. Klein. He won the contest at BPCon. So great job, J.B. for winning the contest. So J.B. So you learn about the copywriters who helped craft vision. You can actually see J.B.'s vivid vision right there on that page and learn more about working directly with Cameron as well.

So all that and more at biggerpockets.com. that show 544. And make sure you stick around to the end of today's episode. We're going to actually hear J.B. read his vivid vision. So he gets coached on how to do it through Cameron today. And he's going to actually read his final version at the end of the show. I think you're going to love it.

You're going to be inspired both by what he's planning and to inspire to do your own. So again, I love this concept. I love this episode. So you're going to love it too, I think. Did you know your house gets bored when you leave? I can't actually prove that. but it probably misses out on the action, the footsteps, the late-night fridge raids. Yeah, when you're gone, your place is basically on unpaid leave.

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slash rookie. Just go to Indeed.com slash rookie right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.com slash rookie. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. A lot of property managers think their job is answering tenant emails and coordinating repairs. That's not the job. The job of a property manager is protecting and growing your operating income and earning your trust while they do it. And that comes down to, three numbers, occupancy, delinquency, and net promoter score. If those numbers slip, your income slips, and your trust slips too. And most PMs don't hold themselves to performance standards. They focus on activity, not outcomes. Mind is different. They obsess over the metrics that actually

grow your cash flow. Go to mind.com slash show me to see how mine performs and get a month of management for free. Because if you're going to hire a property manager, hire one, that manages your investment like an investment. All right. So I'm going to get out of here and let Cameron and J.B. Klein, I guess, take it from here. But first, let's roll a quick clip of J.B. Klein winning on stage at BPCon. There we go. All right. J.B.

What's on, man? How you doing? Good, thanks. All right. I'll give you mine. All right. J.B. Question number one. What does your business look like right now?

Right now, it's a little bit insane. Massively growing. in such a short period of time, and I can't keep up with it. What is it that you do? Might hold rentals. I started off with single families and then some duplexes, and then last month I got an apartment complex of 18 units. A month after that was a package of five small multifamily's totaling 17 units

and a whole bunch of renovations and a flip, and it's a little bit more than I can handle. All right. So this is a good time for this? So where is your business headed? Where do you see yourself in the next three, five, ten years? What do you want to get to? I want to get to the point where I can grow a team and support a team

where they can live full time just working on the team and not have to do anything else. And I can maybe take a little step back. And I do have a personal mission for five years or later. I want to start a veteran's nonprofit organization. And thank you. So I'm hoping that's what I want to do with my life. I've personally lost friends.

I know a lot of other veterans that struggle in many different ways. Suicide prevention is the big one. I've lost, honestly, more friends back home than I have in the field. So that's what I want to do with my life. But it's hard to do that if I have to do something else just to live. so this is my avenue hopefully to build something great leave it to the team and they can do great things and I can focus on this. Last question.

What are you going to focus on when you meet with Cameron? Do you have any idea what you want to focus your efforts on? I do. I think just trying to build a team, how to get more efficient, the systems like you always talk about and just how to manage everything well and maybe start sleeping at night. Sleep is good. give it up for J.B. Klein. All right. And with that said, I think it's time to get into the coaching call between Cameron and J.B.

Take it away, guys. Hey, J.B., how you doing? Good, thanks. Good. I'm looking forward to doing this with you. You're in Virginia right now? Yes, Southwest Virginia. Yeah, I'm over in Italy doing this right now, so we should get the guys from bigger pockets to bring you over to Italy next time so we can do this over pizza. That would be awesome.

Maybe they'll probably send us both a pizza now just to say, sorry. So looking forward to doing this with you. So the whole purpose of what we're going to do right now is you and I are going to spend some time just talking about what your company looks like in the future with the end goal of being that you're going to craft a four or five page written description of what your company looks like, acts like, and feels like three years in the future. And this document that is going to end up getting created. And we've got a copywriter, Jennifer Houday, she and her team have crafted about 450

vivid visions for companies. They're actually going to work with you to polish yours and really make it pop off the page. You're going to end up with a branded, written, professionally copywritten vision of the future that you get to help craft. And it's going to really align your future team, your current team, the bank is going to actually understand what you're building, your shareholders, like everybody around you is really going to understand the vision that you have in your mind for your business. So that's why we're doing what we're going to do. And then the last half of what we're going to do on today is we'll flip, you know, change gears. And we're going to go into a bit of a live coaching session. And I'm going to see if I can give you some advice to help fast track you on

some of this. Awesome. Thank you. That work? All right. So let's do a little exercise right now in crafting the vivid vision. And I want you to pretend that you and I hop into the Delorean with Michael J. Fox and we blast off out into the future. And we're going to arrive December 31st, 2024. So three years from now, and we're going to hop out of the DeLorean and we're going to walk around and you're going to describe everything you see in your company. So let's start with just tell me about the size of your business. What does it look like three years in the future? So three years from now, I will have a thousand units in the portfolio. I'll have full-time team members to handle the operations, fully supported by the company's cash flow.

And I will be much more of an overseer in laying out the course than the person running the day-to-day operations. Now, if you and I just hopped out of the DeLorean and you're describing what you see, you're not going to be saying that you will have the 1,000. You're actually looking around saying, holy shit, I have a thousand locations. Right? I have a full-time team. I am fully supported by the cash flow.

So I want you to continue describing what you see right now, but don't tell me what it's going to be. Tell me what it is. What's your team look like? Who are they? What makes up your team right now? I have my property manager, my executive assistant. I have an acquisitions manager.

I have someone who controls and manages all of my finance for the company. and I have a very solid team of construction and maintenance people that are fully supported by a business and do very quality work. It must be nice to have that team finally built as well, the people that you can kind of rely on right now. What's it feel like to know that you have that team in place for you? I have a feeling of both relief and pride. Yeah.

Because you worked a lot. You worked pretty hard to get to that stage. so that kind of relief and pride is starting to kick in a little bit. What are you doing day to day in the business? What are you working on right now? Three years from now. I'm looking at less of today and more of tomorrow on a daily basis. I look towards where trends are in the future,

what other markets I want to move into next, what other types of acquisitions. I'm looking much further in the future because I'd not bogged down. by putting out the fires of today. So your team's taking care of all the day to day, and you're just really thinking about strategy and the plan of where you're going then. Yes, absolutely.

What kinds of buildings do you actually own? I own commercial properties and short-term rentals and long-term rentals. Definitely a hand quite a few single-family homes, also some very large multifamily homes, possibly even a mobile home park or two. definitely some nice large multifamily. And I'm also spread across the country between four or five states.

So you're already moving into a number of different states. Why is that? Diversity, for one. Also, my goals actually are met by different areas than they are in some other areas. Some areas, I may be just getting a whole bunch of cash flow and other areas I'm getting a lot of appreciation. So I'm pretty much tailoring my sense. to the markets and the benefit of one that I might not get another, I'm pretty much getting it all because I'm getting a chunk of each benefit in real estate by spreading across the areas that are

conducive to that particular benefit. That's interesting. So you might be able to buy some homes or buildings that cash flow really nicely, but they stay pretty flat in terms of, they're not growing in terms of value. And that cash flow allows you to buy other homes or buildings in a market where you can't quite cover the rent with the cash flow, but the buildings going up in value. Is that right? Right. I may have some mobile home parks somewhere that they're not really an asset that's improving much, but it's funding my team's salaries and the operations and just letting everything work and operate and support all the people that are on board. And then I have some maybe expensive areas and some nicer markets,

which I might be breaking even on, but it's building wealth and equity for the company as a whole to further leverage and grow. Are you looking at some of the areas of your business now, three years from now, and looking to get rid of some of them that are more of a pain in the eyes that are of others? Or are you okay with some of the PDA factor because your team is taking care of that for you. Yes, I'll probably be looking at getting rid of some properties now, but right now, three years later, I have a lot of performance metrics and KPIs, and my team is presenting me with all kinds of charts and data to see what is underperforming, and they can advise me on which ones maybe have a lot of equity, but not doing so well that I could dump and rotate

into something better. That's pretty cool. Tell me a little bit about this state. that you're operating in. What states are you in right now? I'm in Virginia, Florida, Colorado, and Texas and California. Texas and California. Why the hell are you in California? Isn't California like a really expensive litigious state? You just like it out there? I think California is a deterrent for many, many reasons. But over the last three years, when a lot of other people have suffered from taxes and all kinds of other reasons, I have found ways to jump in to things that nobody else wanted to be a part of. Nice. I like it. All right. So you've got a team in place now. You're operating in multiple states.

You've got close to a thousand units or a thousand doors. Tell me a little bit about where you're finding your properties right now. How do you find them? I find them through regular public listings, also through off-market deals, whether that's driving around or sending letters or looking up county records. I may not even know exactly how all these deals are being found because my team is figuring out how to find all those. I have an acquisitions manager who's figuring out the various different funnel leads and coming up with new ways and expanding the word of mouth network and whatnot. And I don't even necessarily know how things are done on the ground floor.

You don't seem to worry about that. It seems like you've got a good state of calm because you've got the right team in place. Right. Don't really worry about it because anything that would be of concern that would be obfuscated by my acquisitions manager. He or she would correct those issues as long as she would be in charge of all that, then I don't really have to worry. makes it to me. It's dealt with. I trust that she's managing everything, and I just get sent

these deals to check off and approve. Now, when you were in the Marine Corps years ago, you guys operated with a, I'm sure, a set of core values. Does your business operate with core values? Do you have a set of core values that you lean on as a company? I do personally, and I think I've portrayed that in some ways, but it has not been clearly defined. mind is definitely not been spilled out. I think you're going to open a door or a drawer somewhere in your business today and you're going to find your core values and you're going to maybe get to read them out to us. But I'd like you to think about what those might be three years from now. Have you maybe started to take your personal core values and push them deeper into the

business? Or it's the main core values for the company, as is known and appreciated by the public and the people we work with and our tenants is honesty and quality. We provide a quality product, and we're very honest, and we have integrity in how we conduct business. I want you to think about four core values at some point, you know, off on the side. We can talk about this in our coaching, but we'll talk about coming up with it at four or five, no more than five, but around four or five core values that your company is built off of three years from now, that you're willing to fire people if they break the core values,

that you're not willing to do deals if they cross those core values, that it doesn't matter how good that real estate opportunity might be. If it compromises a core value, it's going to be a no, right? That we're really going to build that as part of the foundation

of what your business comes off of. Okay. Providing value is another one. Yeah, providing value, the quality product, You know, because you can have, as an example, the trailer homes or the mobile home parks, I spoke with a guy in Texas about 10 years ago, 12 years ago now, and I said, what do you do? And he said, we give the working class the American dream.

And I said, what's that mean? He said, well, I give people that can't traditionally afford a home. I give them the chance to afford their own home. And I'm like, how the hell do you do that? He said, I own mobile home parks. I'm like, wow, I get it. You know, and he was truly trying to give that American dream to everyone. And so for him, you know, the American dream meant his mobile home parks had to be clean and modern and fresh.

They couldn't be the trailer park boys. You know, they couldn't be the stuff that you see on some of the bad TV shows. So we'll talk a little bit about that on the coaching, and I want you to make sure you think about that as part of your vivid vision. Talk to me about why are you doing this? Why are you running this business? I want the freedom from the passive income, for one. I want to start a veteran's nonprofit. That's been probably the biggest bucket list item in my life personally.

And that takes a tremendous amount of time and energy, not to mention flexibility in your schedule to handle things and needs of veterans when they might pop out at a moment's notice. It's hard to do that if I'm stuck. in a day job just to live myself. So if I can build this up and then separate myself to a degree, I don't have to worry about, you know, having food and keeping the lights on and all my energy can be put towards the veterans nonprofit. Awesome. Have you got something that you are leaning out 20 or 30 years towards? Do you have kind of a B-Hag, a big, hairy, audacious goal that you're

pushing towards separate from this where your company is now three years from now? Do you have any massive push 20, 30 years out or are you just focused on that three-year vision? Mostly the three-year vision. I do have an idea of something to where my current team or the top team members actually have their own, either tangential businesses and their own portfolios, or they can actually buy me out and they just have this large thing that they can carry on when I'm gone or when I'm doing my own thing and do even bigger things than I was able to do. So there is some part of the business.

A legacy. Yeah, so your team members are kind of buying in at some point or in some way into the business or maybe at a certain number of units that you allow them to participate in, that kind of thing. Yes, maybe not as a like an ongoing partnership throughout the growth, but at some point, not only do I want to, you know, add to the portfolio for my own business and have them help me run that. But I definitely want to encourage them to start their own journeys as their own individual investors.

And at some point, you know, that company instead of just being dissolved or cashed out one day, they can actually not just take the reins, but after that, actually take ownership and everything that they helped build. Now they own that. That's something they created too. Where are you getting the financing for this kind of growth now, three years from now? Over the last three years, were you getting it, and where are you starting to get it now three years from now? Primarily banks still, possibly some syndications in the works, some private money lending, or even partnerships for individual deals, but primarily large bank financing or even local bank financing.

Okay. And have you got good relationships to those banks? Tell me about the relationships you have with the banker or the bankers. I have a very good relationship with the banks. They pretty much know my track record, my history. We do business all the time. I can pick up the phone and pretty much describe what I'm looking at. They sent, all right, when you got the paperwork ready,

the proposal sent it to me. We'll take a look. And then I get a yes or no back or hear the terms and stamp of approval. and then I pass that off to the team and they rock and roll through the acquisition. That's going to feel pretty good to actually have those relationships in place with the banks now. Absolutely, because you've earned the trust, so they don't really question. You're considered, basically, I'm a very, very low risk company in the eyes of the banks. Why do they feel that?

What is it that you've done to build their trust? mainly of the track record. I've never once defaulted or come close to it. I get into deals that are safer deals and cash flow well and all the various metrics and numbers involved always not looking good. So they know that if I'm going to actually pursue a particular acquisition, they know I've done my own underwriting pretty good. And they know that they know that. that even the problems that have happened in the last three years because nothing ever goes perfect and there's always setbacks. I've always taken care of the bank and investors first. You mentioned that you've built up a team now. You've got a team of people that are paid for off the cash flows and off the businesses. How do you leave the team?

Are they self-led? Are you leading them? Is there a person who's managing all the people for you? How's that working? I'd say I have my five people on the team that I directly interact with every single day or maybe once a week, but there's a direct relationship in exchange of information for the business and my direction and my inputs and they give me the status of everything. But I also like to not only just stay, you know, on the top of Mount Olympus, but actually go down there and. know the people that are working at the lower levels and get out there and see in the trenches and out in the field. How are things? I want to be known by everybody, not just some guy in the big office.

So I hope to have a relationship with everybody. What's the brand of your company? What's your company called? New River Valley real estate. New River Valley, I like it. And when people talk about New River Valley, how do they describe? you? How do they describe the company? Professional and honest. Definitely that we mean business.

When we say things, we definitely mean it. And that we're serious. And we know what we're doing. And if you get an offer or a phone call from someone from New River Valley real estate, you want to take the call and you trust that, you know, it's a serious entity to deal with and conduct business with. you can trust them. And are you buying, the kinds of properties that you're buying three years from now,

are these kind of turnaround locations? Are you buying places that need to be renovated and remodeled? Or are you buying places that are, you could put our tenant in the next day or both? At this point, three years later, we're doing both. I still like to, I think the scale I'm at now, instead of going to one distressed property and flipping it and turning to nice and having a nice rental, I can actually go into whole neighborhoods or small towns,

gobble up the whole sections or streets of maybe historical, but like really dilapidated buildings and actually revitalize an entire section of a town or a whole small neighborhood. And again, something very proud of, something to leave your legacy and your mark. I got to do a quick sidebar on this, by the way. Like my dad and I were talking about this recently, and he said he could see in the future a street of ranch style one-floor homes, two-bedroom, three-bedrooms, smaller places that have all been fixed up. The entire street has been fixed up, and it's all filled with seniors, people in their 80s, living in all these homes in that one street. and one of the homes on the street is actually a nursing station kind of person who just make sure that everybody in the neighborhood is kind of like an old age home community, but done in small towns. Because these seniors don't want to live in the big cities of Austin.

They want to live in the smaller towns. And if they can be on a street with 24 of their other senior friends, but they don't want to be in a senior citizen community. I don't know if there's something. Right, right. Might be something there. Might be something there. Interesting. They don't go anywhere.

They just sit there. They're just going to be paying rent until the next 80-year-old comes in and pays rent, right? Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. There's an interesting, I think, gap niche in there may be, yeah, they want the quieter life. But, you know, to go out from the hustle and bustle to find that you tend to get more run down or low economy upkeep of properties as you go further away. So how do you get the best of both worlds? Yeah, there might be something there for you.

So I don't know. Maybe we play with that later. So you're bribling up neighborhoods. You're maybe doing some commercial stuff. What is keeping you awake at night about your business that you're really working on fixing three years from now? Like, what is it that you're really, you know, now working on? That's a tough call. You've got five or six of people.

you've got a thousand locations, you're in multiple states. Is there anything that you're thinking about or worrying about that you're trying to fix at that time? I think at that point, at this point, I want to make sure that the people that I entrust everything to have the same decision-making abilities or will make the same decisions that I would in my absence. I want things to be carried on and stay the course and go in the same direction. Even when I'm much lesser, not at all, in the picture. How do I leave it in people's hands and make sure that if I look back five years later, that it's still on the same direction?

So it sounds like you're probably putting some of the systems and the processes in place so the business can run without you three years from now. That's probably what you're putting in place. And you're probably also, you know, growing the team and the capacity of the team. So they have the skills to run this without you. Yes. Where are you growing? What are you working on in terms of your growth?

I know, are you involved in mastermind groups? Where are you learning and growing as a leader three years from now? I'm actually meeting with significant and iconic people who have success in other areas, whether it's other areas of this business or other areas of completely unrelated businesses, maybe not even business in general. That's where like the whole self-improvement and everything takes off to a whole nother level because I have time now. I have the freedom to fly somewhere and have a lunch or an afternoon with someone

that opens my mind to a whole other mindset about whether it's habit forming or what do you really want to leave on the earth and that type of thing, any number of random things. Do you don't even know what you don't know? There's so many avenues out there when you're not stuck on what the task is I have to do today to what can I explore from my own personal growth in the future and what more can I do in the world? Tell me about the relationships that you have with some of your sub-trades. I mean, you've got, you said different trades people and maintenance people that are doing work with you. What are those relationships like? Those relationships are pretty good. I take high expectations and I demand a lot, but I compensate

and take care of the people who meet those demands very well. So it's a very symbiotic relationship. And my expeditions and high demands are not met with aversion because the people I have on my team are very proud of their own work. They have self-pride and the product they give to me. And again, they're very well taken care of, and we're all happy. I want you to lean back three years, go back to like 2021 for a second. And that year you grew from two locations to 50 locations. How did you do that back then?

What was it that allowed you to do that in the early days? mostly self-education, tremendous amount of work, and just working harder and smarter. I think people talk about not trading, you know, people go into business for themselves. I've talked about not trying to trade time for money because limited. And I think for that year and a half, I was trading sleep for units. So just putting every single waking minute of the day of every single day into pushing and trying and taking the leap to get in the things that might have been scary to get into, but giving the shot. And once you're stuck with something that you sign a contract for, you kind of have to figure it out and make it work. persistence, which a lot of people say, which I completely think is true.

When everything fails and goes wrong, you have to keep pushing and keep pushing and keep pushing and roll with the punches and just wait for the bell to sound, I guess, at the end of the boxing match. When you were doing that and being so persistent back then, was the business cash filling itself back then three years ago? It was, and it wasn't depending on the week. there was a lot in the billing process where I needed the cash flow to fund things and to live off of. And then there's times where I needed capital to leverage to get into the next deal. So I went and things that really didn't make any cash flow, but increased equity.

And then that I had to turn around to get into a cash flowing property to show cash flow to the bank to get finance. It kind of leaped, fraud back and forth, whatever was needed, basically, whether the bank needed to give me loans to buy new properties, just had to constantly, constantly, constantly readapt my strategy on a weekly basis. Were you selling properties back then as well, or was it all buy and hold? It was pretty much all buy and hold. There was a couple sales, but there was some of the BIR methods where I actually pulled out more equity than I put in. So I actually got a chunk of capital in.

the bank from cash out refinance, even if I wasn't really cash flowing. I just did basically like the flip, but I held down to it to the cash out refinance. Got a big chunk of capital. And that's what I needed to be able to put a down payment or to get into the next one. And then I might have recast. Once I had some capital, I could put that back into a couple others to recast them to lower the payments to cash flow back. It was quite a hodgepodge mix match of kind of every strategy in the book adapting on the fly. Not really one clean path. Are you less stressed in 2024 now than you were back in 2021?

We're just hopping out of that DeLorean again. What's your stress level like in three years from now versus today? I'm more and less stressed, primarily less stressed because I don't have the day to day to day, minute to minute things that I'm having to deal with every second. I'm also maybe a little bit more stressed in some things just because at the size I'm at now and the stakes are much higher. So as I get less stressed in the day to day, my concern level goes up because as the scale increases, the stakes just get higher and things are more important. And I have more people to be responsible for their livelihoods as well.

I'll trade the worry about the long-term vision over the day-to-day stress any day. All right. Did you know your house gets bored when you leave? I can't actually prove that, but it probably misses out on the action, the footsteps, the late-night fridge raids. Yeah, when you're gone,

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Ready to simplify your workflow, book your free demo at bill.com slash bigger pockets and get a $100 Amazon gift card. That's bill.com slash bigger pockets. Let's change gears because where we're going to go with this is the transcript of this is going to go off to Jennifer Houda and her team. And Jennifer is going to do a call with you as well. And they're going to start pulling some of these rough ideas together. We're also going to get you a copy of this transcript so that you can take some of this.

And I'm going to email you some samples of some other vivid visions. And I'm going to get you to just write kind of your first draft, like a word document that only Jennifer and you are going to see. And then between you and her and her team, you'll pull this through to a good completed document that you're proud of that everybody's going to like and you'll be able to share. But what I want to do with you now is just start talking about some of these things in the future and let's kind of reverse engineer them. So the way I've always approached business is I think of every business like a jigsaw puzzle. And for me, the four corners of the jigsaw puzzle are the vivid vision, right? So that's the direction of where we're going and what it looks like.

And as long as everyone's clear where we're going, that's key. It's like a foundation for a home. If you've got a shaky foundation, it doesn't matter how good the home is, right? And then the second corner is your core values, right? And really getting core values deeply entrenched into your business, that you're going to hire people based on the core values. You're going to do deals based on core values. You're going to work with the banks based on core values. You're going to fire people based on core values and really starting to think about core values as part of all of your everyday decision making. The third

corner of the jigsaw puzzle for me is core purpose. And it's why you're doing what you're doing, which for you, it's to give yourself the freedom and the cash flow to be able to do the nonprofit, to be able to not have to worry about the day to day, to build a build some kind of a legacy. You know, that's the core purpose of why you're doing this, right? And then the fourth corner for me is that B-Hag. And I think for you, currently the B-Hag isn't really developed or thought through, but I think it is something around legacy and something around, you know, you're being able to do something that gives you a life. How old are you now? 42. 42. Yeah, as a hell to guess. So you're going to be able to build something that is going to

give you a legacy business in the future that allows you to take care of your family and yourself and it gives you that financial freedom. And I think for you, you have to decide what that lifestyle is that you're living in the future and that B-Hag has to kind of get you there. So I think it's going to be something around that nonprofit for the veterans as well. There's going to be some tie in there. So those are the four corners of the jigsaw puzzle that I really want you to think about over the next few years. And some of them have to be foundational this year, right? The core values, the core purpose, the vivid vision have to be really deeply entrenched

this year. And those become the foundation that you're going to build the place off of. Then if you build a jigsaw puzzle, after you get the four corners, you start with the sides, right? You get all the side pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. So the first side of the jigsaw puzzle for me are all the people systems. And that's the interviewing, the recruiting, you know, sorry, recruiting. interviewing, hiring, training, the leadership development of people.

And your business is going to be predicated off of your ability to recruit and hire and onboard and align really good people, right? Because for many of them, it's a job, right? It's how they pay bills. It's how they have enough money to take care of themselves and their family. They're not building a legacy. They're just trying to pay bills. And they're doing what you're not wanting to do, right? You don't want to have to just be worried about it. For most employees, that is what they worry about. So you're going to have to get good at aligning those people, inspiring those people,

finding those people, and keeping those people, you're going to have to show them meaning and help provide meaning. And that's going to be key for you in the business, because if you're building a business that is giving you the freedom and the cash flow in the future, that means it's largely because you have the people in place that are doing it for you. Right. So have you had any training around interviewing at all? None at all.

And you've hired some people, right? I have. And how the hell did you do that? You don't even have to do an interview. You just, you get someone to do one thing for you, and you work together, and actions speak louder than words. So trial basis, and I see what they do in one thing small. And I think if you just watch a person actually do work and how they do things and how they conduct themselves, probably I think, at least from my perspective or my skill set, shows me more of how well they're going to do and what type of people they are than what they're going to say in a resume or an interview session.

Sure. So I think you have to take this to the next level now. You know, you're going to be building a $50 million business that runs itself and throw. grows off free cash flow, you can't anymore starting today hire somebody and work on a project and try to grow them. That's just not going to scale. Even when you join the Marine Corps, there was some kind of an interview process. They just didn't take the first guy with a pulse and say, sure, come on in. There must have been some level of interviewing and of training and some base level that they looked for. So I'm going to recommend that you read a book called Who

by Jeff Smart. It's a very, very strong book on the interviewing systems that you need to actually bring good people into a company. It might be a little overkill for you. It might be a little more than your business needs,

but it's flip through it, take the good parts and don't worry about the stuff that's too complicated. Take the stuff that makes sense for you and simplify it. I'm also going to recommend that there's one of the modules

in my course, investing your leaders. In fact, the whole investment in your leaders, leaders course is going to be good for you. And I'll make sure that we get you a copy of the investment in your leaders course for free. I'm going to give that because the guys at Thank you very much. Yeah, not at all. I mean, it's only $670, but I'm going to gift you a copy of that for doing this. And I know the guys at biggerpockets.com are fans of it as well. But the idea with

the investing your leaders course is it is the 12 core leadership systems and tools that every manager needs to be good in their job. One of them is the interviewing section. So in that course, you're going to learn how to do proper interviews. But it also talks about coaching and delegation and time management and project management and one-on-one meetings and running effective meetings. It's all the skills that you need to actually be a good leader in a company. But you need to get good at interviewing because your business is going to be hiring people. And by the way, when you bring on a sub-trade or a contractor to work in your buildings,

there's an interview process in picking those good ones. You have to know how to pick the otherwise. They end up doing three projects and screwing all three of them up. And then they hurt your reputation. They hurt your brand. They hurt time. They hurt money. The banks upset.

All because you didn't know how to interview a sub-trade or interview a contractor. So interviewing is going to be very, very key for you as a system and a skill that you need to learn. And then for the people that you have, I would put those people into the investment in your leaders course. You know, invest $670 in them to grow their. skills because if you grow their skills, they can grow your company for you. You're involved in the Bigger Pockets community because you want to grow your skills as a leader. You want to be connected with other smart people in the industry that are driving things forward. Those are things that you want to do for your employees as well as connect them with some of those skills to do.

But the interviewing is going to be key for you. Bringing good people into your company is got to be key for you. Aligning those good people is going to have to be key for you. And then it sounds like you've done a pretty good job at avoiding all the busy work, probably because you were just so go, go, go, add another unit, add another unit. You didn't have time for all the miscellaneous stuff, right? You didn't have time to waste time. That's going to be key for you and your growth over the next three years, too, is focusing on the critical few things versus the important many. There's going to be lots of stuff that you could be doing that isn't necessarily the critical few things.

And if you stay really focused on the stuff that matters, that's going to be powerful. Another thing that you're going to want to try to start looking at doing is leveraging video communications for everything that you do. So if you're going to have to call your banker, ask if you can hop on Zoom or FaceTime with your banker. If you're going to have to call a subtrade, ask you if you can hop on Zoom or FaceTime with your subcontractor. trade. Most people are walking around with an iPhone. The video communication that you can have with a sub trade, a contractor, a bank, and employee is really powerful because you build a relationship that you just can't get over the phone or over email. So I think that's... I like that. I'm in your growth too. Here, you and I are talking right now and you're in Virginia

and I'm in Italy and, you know, I can see body language. I can see when you're writing a note down. You get a connection. But, you know, if I turned my video, off and I'm just talking to you without video, you know, it's a very different experience. So I think that's going to be powerful for you and your growth. For sure, your banking relationships are going to be important. You know, that relationship on financing is going to be critical for you. They're going to believe in your track record and they're going to believe in your results and they're going to believe in your economic side of the business, but they're really

going to believe in you as a person. So it's going to come down to, in this next 12 months, the number of times you can go for lunch or coffee with your banker. The number of times you can go play golf with your banker. Getting your vivid vision into the hands of your banker and asking them to read it every three months so that they're really clear on what you're building. Because you're going to be standing apart the whole idea with getting your business into the mind of the banker. is that you need to stand apart from everybody else. New River Valley has to be something different from all the other real estate companies

that are simply a spreadsheet. So those relationships are going to be key for you. I love having the relationships with the small regional bankers that you can just go for lunch with, right? Because they want to do business with people like you. I definitely prefer like the personal touch. Yeah. I would weave that into your vivid vision as well. I would explain that that's part of how your business operates. There's a guy that I met who's pretty big in real estate. His name is David Osborne. David is, I think he's the number one Keller Williams real estate guy in the U.S. And he and I were, we were at a mastermind event. We both pay to be in three or four different mastermind groups. And he turned to me one night and we were just sitting beside each other. And he's like, Cameron, are you Cameron Harold? I'm like, yeah, he goes, I hear about you all over these places. And where I was going with this was, I think for you staying involved in the bigger pockets

community, finding other entrepreneurial communities in your market to get in with. Like you mentioned, sometimes it's learning from people in your industry. Sometimes it's going to be learning from people outside your industry as well. The key is to just always keep learning. But when you're learning, it's try to tie the learning to what you're working on over the next three months. Don't read random business books that have nothing to do with what you're working on over the next three months. You know, if you're going to be hiring three people in the next six months, start reading stuff about hiring and interviewing and onboarding people.

Some more targeted learning. Yeah, that's why school sucked. The reason school sucked for you and for me and for everybody else is nothing of what they were teaching us was relevant. But if they were teaching us about something that mattered. Like, what are your hobbies? What are you into? I like long-range shooting, motorcycles. I used to like rock climbing and skiing a lot. I definitely barbecues and picnics.

I still have some of my adrenaline sport. Yeah, but like, look at, like, your energy just went up talking about, like, rock climbing and skiing and barbecue and long-range shooting and motorcycles. Imagine if the teacher said to you in school, I want you to read about the history of motorcycles. I want you to read about the science of how the motorcycle works. I want you to read about the mathematics of motorcycle sales for Harley Davidson. I want you to read about the marketing of motorcycles. You would have been like, and a every one of those classes sounds amazing. Like a marketing of motorcycles. Yeah, like, why are we studying the history of a war that happened 300 years ago?

Why can't we study the history of motorcycles? So, because what they're trying to, to do is to teach us about history, right, and to be interested in learning. So your learning right now has to be tied to the stuff that matters in your business today. Right. So it's going to be, how do I build relationships with bankers will be important. How do I build a small team? Like, don't read business books about running companies with a thousand people when your company is going to have 10 employees in three years. You know, all of you read Michael Gerber's e-miff, right? You want to be reading all of the books that are tied for the very small entrepreneur, read traction. Gino Wickman's book, Traction. You know, all of your learning has to be tied to what you're

working on. As an example, I run a podcast called the Second In Command podcast, which is great. I interview amazing guests, but for the most part, it's pretty irrelevant to anything that you're working on. The people I'm interviewing are running companies that are way bigger, the lessons that they're talking about aren't that relevant to you. It would be a a total waste of your time to listen to the Second and Command podcast. Doing the invest in your leaders course would be a massive for you because for the amount of money, it's a rounding error. And for the amount of learning, it would fast track you in around all the leadership skills that would be powerful. So that's kind of where I'm thinking for you over the next three years is

it's all going to come down to like investing where you have to get the highest return on your money, right? In some cases, it's to get their cash flow, in some cases to get the growth, whatever. You have to get the highest return on your time. That's why I was like, why the hell are you doing California? Texas made sense and Florida made sense. Geographically, I would try to stick within one time zone of where you are. California's a long fucking way away. And the pain of the ass factor is pretty high, right?

There's plenty of real estate to go around within one time zone and within a two-hour flight of where you are. Because what you want to be able to do is wake up in the morning at seven beyond the eight o'clock flight. be in the market at 10 and be on the 7 o'clock flight coming home so you can talk to your wife at 10 p.m. before you guys go to sleep. But California, I would be looking at getting the highest return on your money, the highest return on your time, and the highest return on your people over the next three years as well. Okay. You mentioned that you have an executive assistant in the future.

Do you have one now? Yes, part-time. What do you have that person doing for you? mainly phone calls and emails, research, still actually struggling to find the time to onboard and explain all the things I need help with so that I have more time. There's a little bit of a catch-22 at the moment, but I'm hoping just I get it on phone calls almost all day long, and there's just five-minute tasks that I don't necessarily have to do myself or at least I can have her aggregate all the things into one 10 minute phone call

to be more efficient. Yeah, there's also, you've got to look at how do you get results through people. And you're right that some parts of it right now is it's going to take you time to grow her to do stuff so that you can get it off your plate. But if you spend a half an hour training her to do something and she's going to do that five minute task every week for the next 50 weeks, you've spent 30 minutes to save 250 minutes. That's a good deal, right? You have to look at the, like a long-range shooting, right? Like you shoot, don't you have to shoot like an arc kind of, like you have to understand the mathematics of the executive assistant is that the more time you train her on certain tasks, the more that she can do that forever. And then it's also,

do you have a cleaning lady or a cleaning person that comes to clean your home? Not anymore. Okay, because you're putting that money into real estate? Well, I just, you know, it's hard to find good people, but no, I haven't, I try to do it myself. I just, I guess that's one thing I could really delegate out a lot of my personal life stuff. Yeah, we'd get a lot of that stuff off your plate, too. What you want to do is get rid of every minimum wage task that's on your plate. What's your business do in revenue right now? We're about, I have to pull up the spreadsheets, but I'd say about,

2017,000 a month to 26,000. So that's around $200,000 a year. That's $100,000 an hour. So you're effectively earning $100 an hour right now. That means that if you're doing a minimum wage, if I was your CEO and I was paying you $200,000 a year, right, which is what you're currently earning from your business, and I found out that I was paying you $100 an hour

and you were doing a $15 an hour job, I'd lose my shit. I'd be like, dude, I'm paying you eight times that. Why am I paying you $100 to do something for a fifth? You need to free up your time so that you can go ride your motorbike. You need to free up your time so that you can go grill for your friends. You need to free up your time so that you can build a relationship with a bank. Because I'll tell you, the hour that you spend with the banker is better than the hour you spend cleaning your home and, you know, doing your laundry.

It was crazy when you mentioned that because like that's pretty much exactly how I had conversations with my contractors about, you know, the supervisors may get like, you know, 50 bucks an hour and I have employees that work for 10 or 20 bucks an hour. And I was saying, why are you helping someone set a toilet or something? And I just, I should apply that to myself. Yeah. You have to fire yourself from every minimum wage job that's on your plate. You have to actually get pissed off.

Like, pretend that you were paying. me $100 an hour and you found out I was doing minimum wage jobs, you'd be pissed off. Get pissed off at yourself. And then what happens is everything starts to scale now because you start working on the critical few things, right? You start working on the strategy and the delegation and the growing of people. Even the reason I even gave my course the name invest in your leaders is I believe that if I invest in them and their time, that I grow their skills, they'll grow my company. right if you could spend time growing your executive assistant growing a couple of contractors working on your interview skills your business goes through the roof but what you don't want to do

is what you have done to get here so what you've done to get here is kind of like the fly trying to get at the window right you're going to work hard you're going to keep banging your head on the window until you get out but there's a door just take the easier path right there's a door So no more can you work hard. Now you just have to work smart. All of your scale is going to come from you working smart now. Sounds good. No, that makes a lot of sense.

So we've got about four minutes left. I finish every meeting five minutes early so I can always be on time for my next meetings. What questions have you got for me? Probably about $50 million. So it's hard to kind of pick one right now. How do I figure out to convey or take the stuff that I'm doing right? right now, which I have a hard time figuring out how to pass off some of my tasks to another person because do I just need to spend more time in the training or do we have to sit there and do it

together and follow? It's just, I'll answer the first part of the question, then I'm going to give you a quick exercise to be very helpful and we'll be able to wrap with that. So you can have someone listening on all of your phone calls and they can learn just from listening and then you can talk to them afterwards. You can forward your emails to them and have them read them, or you can blind CC them so they can read them and they can learn just the way you're writing and what you're saying to people. You can have them sit in on meetings. They can ride shotgun with you. They can listen in on phone calls that you do with your team or your staff, right? So they get to learn just from watching. I learned a lot about running companies just from sitting with my dad,

watching him run his businesses, right? Just being around him. So, Just get your employees and your EA. Yeah, just get them to be around you and they'll learn just from osmosis. They'll learn just from watching. And then what you do on the drive to the next place is say, what did you see me do? When did you see me say, well, this is how I did that. And they go, oh, okay, you're driving anyway. So when you're driving to that other place, you just talk to them.

But the key thing to remember is that, yes, it's going to cost you to train them. But the upside is that they can then do that for you at scale. right? Your job needs to get done, but not by you. You need to break the habit of I need to do this. No, no, no, no. It needs to get done, but not necessarily by you. And then your job is to figure out, can I automate it? Can I outsource it? Can I delegate it to someone? But it all needs to get done, but not by you. So I even have this podcast, my second command podcast, as soon as I get off my episode, my Zoom files get automated. automatically uploaded. And then my podcast team, who are in Tel Aviv and Israel, they get notified that the files come in. They download the files off Dropbox. They do all the editing of it all. Then my post-production team puts it all out in marketing. I do nothing other than I do the interview and I'm done. I delegate everything except genius. So you would say like I run through everything that I have to do. And what about putting through a filter where either I automate, delegate,

eliminate. Here's the filter. I want you to pretend that someone followed you around with a video camera for an entire month. Just like Gary Vaynerchuk, and they're going to video everything that J.B. does for an entire month. And then I want you to write down everything that you see yourself doing. What I do is I open up an Excel spreadsheet or a Google sheet, and I put down every task, one row per task. I open emails, I read emails, I reply to emails, I show up at meetings, I talk to subtrades, whatever. Write down all the 86 things you do over there. course of a month. And then you're going to categorize those things in one of four ways, either the letter I for incompetent, meaning that you suck at it, a C for competent, meaning I'm okay

at it, and E for excellent, meaning I'm really, really good at it, and a U for unique ability, meaning I'm really good at it, and I love doing it. As an example, I'm pretty fucking incompetent at grilling a steak. I should just have someone barbed, for me. And for you, that's like, that's impossible. How can you be bad? I'm like, dude, I'm way better at hiring somebody to grill my food for me than I am at grilling my own food. I'm very good. So if you can delegate all the incompetent and all the competent, that's the first thing. And then the second way is put down a dollar figure. What would the hourly rate be that you'd pay someone to do each of those tasks? What would you pay them to grill a steak?

What would you pay them to clean a toilet? What would you pay them to wash your car? What would you pay them to call a contractor, what would you pay them to negotiate with a bank? I'd probably pay more to negotiate with a bank than I would be to hire a plumber. So what you're going to now start doing is delegating everything that's below your effect of hourly rate. And then the last thing is, can you stop doing it? Before you delegate it, before you outsource it, does it even need to be done? There's a bunch of things you might be doing that just don't even need to be done anymore. So before you delegate something, let's decide does it even need to be done? Is that helpful?

Yes, very, very helpful. All right, man, we are a wrap. I'm going to get Jason from my team to give you free access to the investment in your leaders course. I know that Kevin and team at Bigger Pockets are going to give you access to Jennifer Houday and her team, so they're going to work with you on your vivid vision. When you're done your vivid vision, when it's all crafted, send me a copy of it. I love to see where it wraps up to.

Oh, I'd love to. I really appreciate the time and all. the help. Thank you very much. Of course. You're welcome. Have a good one. Good luck with it all. Now I have my vivid vision, I like to take a few minutes to personally read off a few of the highlights that are most important to me. This is our snapshot. The following is our vivid vision. Creating a vivid vision brings the future into the present so we can have clarity on what we're building now. It is a detailed overview of what our company will look like, feel like and act like three years out by December 31st, 2024.

It's December 31st, 2012. And New River Valley Real Estate is a veteran-owned and operated real estate company, raising the bar for quality care and service in the community. Team members leave the office at the end of the day, feeling proud of what they've accomplished, appreciated, and energized to spend time with their family and friends. Investors sleep easy knowing that their money is in good hands and on track to produce an ROI. When customers look for a place to rent and here is owned by us, they know they're in for quality service where their needs come first.

And individuals in our community who traditionally faced high barrier entrance into buildings, like women from badded women's shelters and homeless veterans, now have a beautiful and safe place to call home. The secret to our success emerges from our honor code, aka our core values. These are our core values. Honesty, quality, personal development, efficiency, teamwork, and communication. Honesty is important to us. We conduct business with integrity, fair practices, and ethics. We try not to, but if we do make a mistake, we own up to it, and course correct quickly.

Quality. We put care into everything we do. When people see our logo or hear our name, they think, now that's a brand you can trust. Personal development. We educate ourselves and each other, not just so we can do our jobs better, but to improve the quality of our lives outside of work too.

Efficiency. We work harder and smarter. If we can get more done in less time and create more flexibility to enjoy our lives, we're all in. Teamwork and communication. We work together. We're open and honest in our interactions and quick to lend a helping hand to accomplish more together.

Our culture is what's most important to us and what sets us apart. We recruit, hire, and onboard quality people who are great at what they do and love doing it. We are not just a group of coworkers, we're a family, a true team. We understand the importance of our work. We also do our best to be efficient and not waste time or money. We don't take lightly the fact that our job affects others, both inside and outside the company. The personal bonds and camaraderie that we build are apparent even when we're off the clock, whether it's picking up groceries or lending a listening ear to someone in need.

We've put a lot of effort into building our future together, so we all share the pains of loss and the pleasures of success. We enjoy a healthy sense of humor, when appropriate, to get through the workday with joy. And it's not uncommon to see our founder walk in and ask a painter how his newborn son is doing or order lunch on a job site for our team. If there's a topic a team member wants to learn more about, say preparing for retirement, or buying a car, will happily provide the resources you need. As a member of our team, we support your continued growth so that you can keep getting better at what you do and improve the quality of your life. In a newer Valley real estate, we believe in being involved in the community.

We work hard to have a lot so that we can give a lot. We do that through donations and participation. This starts internally with giving forward to our team members who helped us get here and extends to our friends, the family, and the larger community. Whether it's simply offering a shoulder for a team member to lean on, or sponsoring an event in the community to raise awareness and funds for battered women's shelters, substance abuse recovery homes, or disabled people, are happy to get involved. We collaborate with a nonprofit that supports veterans in the community to provide

housing as well as internships, free training, and coaching. Lastly, we never forget to give to ourselves and enrich our own lives, which fuels our motivation to always do more. Founder Feeling My core purpose in expanding newer value real estate is to gain the cash flow to pay the bills and the team to manage the company. So I have the freedom to focus on starting a nonprofit dedicated specifically to veterans.

I want this company to be a legacy, not just for myself, but for my team members as well, where one day they can share ownership of the business, a legacy for investors so they can feel confident they made smart investments they'll see returns on for years to come,

and a legacy for community members who live in and enjoy our properties. My mission has always been to create a space that's enriching, fun, and conducive to productive work environment where we can achieve our biggest goals. Thanks to our hard work, values, and vision, we've built a well-reputed name for ourselves in a community, synonymous with trust and quality. None of it will be possible without you, my team, investors, and clients.

I am so proud of everything we have accomplished and excited for what's next. Thank you for listening to me to highlight our vivid vision. If this resonates with you, please reach out to me. I'd be happy to find out ways that you can support us or that we can support you and we can all work together. Please see the show notes for the contact information. Be happy to hear from you. Please reach out. Thank you very much for listening.

Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform, our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K. Copywriting is by Calicoe content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter,

please visit www.biggerpockets.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk. So use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before. investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. Bigger Pocket's LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential, or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.