BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 549: Building a $2M Portfolio While Raising 2 Kids w/ Maria Friström

Episode Date: December 26, 2021

Maria Friström is an investor, designer, mother, and business owner from Finland, and she’s one of the only few people that can match Brandon Turner in height. Maria was working in Silicon Valley before she voluntarily left her position to build an empire of her own. She took her down payment savings for a primary residence and on a whim bought a rental property in Fort Collins, Colorado. She and her husband then decided to move to Finland to raise their children. Through some challenging life events, Maria was left heartbroken and grief-stricken, with a business that became a full-time job for her. She wanted to express her creativity via design, so they decided to move back to America to flip their first rental property in Colorado. Maria’s inspiring story is a testament to how real estate investing can pull you out of financial, emotional, and mental depths. She has built a real estate empire worth well over two million dollars and has the financial freedom to spend time where she wants, with who she wants, doing what she wants. In This Episode We Cover: How to build your real estate portfolio without building yourself a job Using real estate as a hedge against high taxes  Presenting investment opportunities in a professional, efficient way Healing after heartbreak and using your passions to bring you mental clarity  The 4 keys to raising capital for real estate investing (whether it be banks, private money, etc.) Why you should always be willing to eat the shiz sandwich  And So Much More! Links from the Show BPCON2021 BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast BiggerPockets Talent Search BiggerPockets on Audible BiggerPockets on Twitter BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Youtube Channel BiggerPockets Pro Membership Brandon Turner’s Instagram David Greene’s Instagram Open Door Capital BiggerPockets Podcast 485: Atomic Habits That Help You Achieve Unthinkable Success w/ NYT Best Selling Author James Clear How to Retire Early With Real Estate & Do What Matters More with Chad Carson How to Use the DISC Profile to Communicate Effectively in Business Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/show549 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 549. Last fall, my husband was like, so it was a dark time for me. My husband's like, what do you dream of? What would you want to do? And I had lost myself again, like completely. And I still don't know who I'll be after losing her. I'm still working on that. And I'm like, you know what?

That house that we bought six years ago in Fort Collins, I've always dreamt about designing that. What's going on? I'm on. It's Brandon Turner, host of the Bigger Pockets podcast here once again in Las Vegas, Nevada for a live podcast recording. But David, Green, is not in Nevada. Sadly, he is in California. What's up, David? Not much, brother. I'm a little jealous here in a 7,500 square foot suite. I'm still here. People who listened to the show a week ago would be like, wow, Brandon's been there for a week. No, we are recording both these episodes in one day, which means I still don't have a voice today because I lost it yelling in a national bar of last, a couple days ago. So anyway, today's show, speaking of, I don't know how to connect that to Nashville Bar, but speaking of great shows, we've had a lot of them lately. And today is just another phenomenal one in a great line of shows here in the Bigger Pockets podcast. The show where we teach people how to invest in real estate so they can obtain the ideal life or at least a more ideal life than what they maybe have right now. So in other words, we're going to teach you financial freedom. We're going to teach your literacy, how to set goals, all that stuff.

And specifically on today's show, we're talking with a good friend of mine, Maria Freestrum, who's actually here in Vegas. And we're sitting down and chatting with her about how she got into real estate, her ability to do it from a very long distance when you'll hear more about that because she's not actually from America originally. You're going to hear about a really heartbreaking and also inspirational story. I think it was the first time in 549 episodes that I've cried and that our guest has cried. So that's a new thing today. And you're going to hear a lot about financing and more. So all that and more to come. But first, let's get to today's quick tip. Yeah, my voice. I can't do the highs. That's like when I lose my voice, which happens

every time I go to a conference, I lose the highs. But today's quick tip. is brought to you by David Green. I'm throwing it on you, David, again, long last time. Today's quick tip is try to find any way that you spend energy, time, money, anything in a way that will get you a return. So, Brandon, you are in Las Vegas right now, spending a decent chunk of change rent out an awesome suite. Now, to most people, that is a frivolous expense. It's lost revenue. It's money you don't have anymore. But you're doing it in a way that's going to bring enough value to investors and yourself that it should pay for the suite and then some. This is actually an investment for you. So you don't have to deny yourself of everything you love. You don't have

to spend every single day avoiding that cup of coffee you want to try to save up enough money. Then in 12 years, you can finally get the car payment. There's actually a way to get the things you want in life and make sure that they earn you a return. So try to train your brain to look for. If I spend this money on something, how can I make sure that I get a return back on that? All right. That was a good quick tip. That kind of reminds me when I moved up to Hawaii, a friend told me, he's like, I was like, well, it's really expensive there and taxes are high. He's like, listen, when you're in that environment, when the good weather and you're happy and there's people coming all the time and like there's awesome people visiting, like,

do you think you could earn more than what you're paying in taxes to live in that state? And I'm like, oh, yeah, probably. And it's totally been true. So that's a great example. Thank you. Here's why savvy real estate investors are obsessed with bonus depreciation. It lets you take that rental property or commercial building you own and depreciate most of the cost against your income legally, 100%.

IRS compliant. That's instant cash flow improvement. Cost segregation guys is the number one firm nationwide, specializing in identifying these faster depreciating assets in your property. They've completed tens of thousands of studies across all 50 states from remote cabins to apartment complexes. So if you own investment property, this is a no-brainer. So visit costsegregationguise.com slash BP for your free proposal and find out how much you could save this tax season. Most investors spend more time chasing deals than reviewing their insurance. But a quick coverage check can be fast, easy, and one of the smartest ways to protect and even improve your property's cash flow. As the months get colder, frozen pipes, icy walkways, and seasonal wear and tear can increase the likelihood of claims. And traditional insurance companies aren't always built to handle these claims quickly or smoothly. That's why more real estate investors are turning to steadily. They focus exclusively on landlords, whether, it's a single-family rental, a burr-builders risk policy, or midterm holiday guests.

You get fast quotes, flexible coverage, and protection for property damage, liability, and even loss of rental income. Now is the perfect time to review your rates and coverage. Get a quote in minutes at biggerpockets.com slash landlord insurance. Steadily, landlord insurance designed for the modern investor. For decades, real estate has been a cornerstone of the world's largest portfolios, but it's also historically been sort of complex, time-consuming, and expensive. But imagine if real estate investing was suddenly easy, all the benefits of owning real, tangible assets

without the complexity and expense. That's the power of the Funrise Flagship Fund. Now, you can invest in a $1.1 billion portfolio of real estate, starting with as little as $10.10. The portfolio features 4,700, a single-family rental homes spread across the booming sunbelt. They also have 3.3 million square feet of highly sought after industrial facilities, thanks to the e-commerce wave.

The flagship fund is one of the largest of its kind. It's well diversified, and it's managed by a team of professionals. And it's now available to you. Visit fundrise.com slash BP Market to explore the fund's full portfolio, check out historical returns, and start investing in just minutes. Carefully consider the investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses of the Fundrise Flagship fund before investing. This and other information can be found in the fund's prospectus at fundrise.com

slash flagship. This is a paid advertisement. Now I think it's time to get into the interview with my good friend, Maria Freestrum. Maria, welcome to the Bigger Pockets podcast. How you doing? Thank you.

Thanks for inviting me, especially after I totally insulted you the first time we met. Did you? Yeah. I don't remember this at all. I knew you wouldn't remember. So it was two years ago in Nashville,

BP Con first one around. And I end up at a dinner with you, at the same table. And at this dinner, you like quite vulnerability, is that a word? in a vulnerable way, share something about you, and that is that you hate your voice. Okay. This is true.

This is true. Especially when I lost it. Like, talk. Fast forward the day after you have your keynote and after you come up to me and you're like, all right, so what do you think? How did you go? And I'm like, well, it was great. If only your voice wasn't so terrible. And I mean, what the hell?

But you laughed because I knew you would laugh. And you know what that led to? Me leaving the Bigger Pockets podcast. It all started then. That was when the journey started. It wasn't a day. I told you that day. I said, today I'm going to give my two years notice on the podcast.

And that's how it all I did. It was your fault that I'm leaving. So if anybody's wondering why my episodes are coming to an end soon, now we know. Sorry, guys. It's okay. You know what, Maria, that was karma coming Brandon's way. And I appreciate you being the delivery system for that. Because the first time that Brandon and I hung out, we were actually in Canada.

and we sat down and he said, you know, there's a lot of things you got going for you, David, but you really need to lose some weight and learn how to dress. That was the, I did not say. He denies it to this day. I did not say it that way. I simply said, if you didn't wear pajamas to a millionaire club, you might build some better relationships or something like that. But you like to hear it up straight.

You don't like to have yes men around you, David. Yeah, that's why we became friends. I like this guy. But he did call me fat and slovenly dressed. So I do like that you gave Brandon. taste of his own medicine for me. And ever since then, he's probably developed a little bit of class when he's delivering his insults. Yeah, maybe a little bit. Well, anyway, thank you for coming today. I do feel a little weird for those watching the YouTube version of this. It is very rare that I am

looking shorter than the person next to me and even more rare when that person is non-male. Not male. I'm going to start using that. That's good. You are tall. You're not actually tall as me, but you sit way more upright than I do. It's my ballet background. There you go. All right. So let's get into your background, but not your ballet background. How did you get into real estate investing?

I'm kind of a monkey. I've been all over. I've lived in four countries. I've worked in four countries over three continents. I've changed my career. Do monkeys travel a lot? Is that where that? Oh, no, yeah, the monkey gym.

It's like the kid's kind of career nowadays. Like swinging from one to one to another. Okay, okay, I got it. Yeah. So I've changed my career majorly three times before I got into real estate investing full-time. What else did you do? So I've done physical therapy in Finland. I've been a golf coach in Hong Kong.

I do not play golf. That's a story for another time. And I've worked at a brand experience agency in Stockholm, Sweden. And the last job that I had was I worked five years at a COMS agency. That's a creative communications agency in Silicon Valley in California. And that's, I mean, it was a job. I got to work with such amazing people, super smart, some of the world's biggest brands, thought leaders, creatives. And I loved it. But then one day in 2015, I found myself in the massage room of that company. And I'm stuck to this machine that's just sucking the beauty and the glory out of me. And it was a breast pump. So I'm sitting there and I have a tube top on that's like a hands free type of thing.

I don't know if you've seen it anymore. Sure. I've seen them. Right? So I'm able to like type at the same time because I couldn't take 15 minutes off just to do nothing. So I'm sitting there. You have to be productive. Ah, yeah.

So like milk's flying everywhere. It's on the computer. And I'm like at the same time, my five-month-old baby, he's at some sort of $2,000 a month baby kennel. And I'm like, what am I doing in this jungle? Right? So at that moment, I had bought my first property at that point. In the U.S. So that was the defining moment where I'm like, okay, I need to do something about my freedom.

And real estate is the way that I'm going to go about doing that. Yeah. Okay. Where'd you buy? Was that just a house you lived in then? Well, no. That would be too easy. That would be too easy.

So to give you a little bit of background, my husband and I, We both come from like very regular families. He's number five out of ten kids. And I come from a big family. We're four kids. And at one point, my mom, she's physically disabled. So we had a hard time at moments. At one point, we couldn't afford milk.

So we had to like make milk out of powder. So just to give you a little bit of background there. So visa, my husband and I, for like 10 to 15 years, we'd been saving up, working away, renting ourselves, and saving up our money to buy our own home. And at this point, we're like 34. And so one day I'm like, hey, honey, instead of buying our own home, I'm going to buy this house side unseen in this place called Fort Collins, Colorado, and we live in California. And we're going to put all of our savings into it. Is that cool? Why Fort Collins? Why did you pick that? So it all started with, I had a financial advisor that I got

through work. Who's amazing. Thank you, Josh. He advised me that you're getting killed on taxes. You need to do something about that. And he had some properties in Fort Collins. And so I looked into Fort Collins. So I did a few things. I did my due diligence. I'm like, this is a place that people like to live in? And it hit like all kinds of top 10 list. Best place to retire. Happiest people. Yeah. And definitely had like, what do you call it? Like positive people are moving in more than moving out. So it's a growing place. There's a university. Do you know that that's where I met Heather was in Fort Collins?

That's right. I think you've told me. We met and we went on a date. Our first date was to Big City Burrito, I think it was, in Fort Collins. It's like downtown by the, yeah. I haven't been. It was cute. Anyway, keep going.

Fort Collins, good place. Magical place. Magical things happen in Fort Collins. So basically since I lived in California, I had gone there just randomly for business, went to Denver. I extended that trip, went to Fort Collins, and I met with the realtor, and he helped me look at some properties. So, you know, it sounds so easy when I'm like, oh, and then I just bought this property. You're going to like, buddy, but it took, I think, a couple years before I actually put something under contracts. This was, was it six years ago.

The market was hot. I bought it from a investor who was exiting because he thought it was too hot. But I wasn't even on the train. So I'm like, this is a deal for me. cash flowed a little, like 100 bucks a month, but I saw the potential. And for me, like, number one was tax reasons. So I bought it, side unseen. But that was like the number five property that I put offers on.

So it was a hot market back then. What was the hobby thinking at this point? Well, you know what? At this point, I think he was too busy with his work and his career that he's just like, you know what? I think I trust you. and I'm a little afraid, but okay, let's do it. Yeah.

Can you share a little bit about, you said you bought it for tax purposes, how that worked out? Yeah, so we made pretty good money in California. And David, as you know, taxes are pretty high there. Ouch. So we had zero things that we could write off because we didn't have kids at that point. And we didn't own anything. So now that we owned property, we were able to write. that part off. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of benefits. I mean, I know people who deliberately

just buy real estate just offset their taxes. In fact, I was talking to a guy the other day who makes a ton of money online and he's also a real estate guy. And he said he just works backwards every year to buy the amount of real estate needed to make sure his tax bill is zero. Like it's the whole depreciation. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just like, how much do I need to buy. Yep. I do spend a lot of time on tax optimization and being smart about that. So I actually got a tax is that refund this year. Wow, look at you. Yeah. It's weird. I know when I was like not buying a lot of real estate, this is like four or five years ago, I was just making money from bigger pockets, you know, book sales and whatever else. And then it was like a year I didn't buy hardly anything.

Yeah, I had like a hundred thousand dollar tax bill or some crazy amount like that. I was like, this is nuts. And then like now ever since I started really heavily three years ago buying a lot of real estate, now like, yeah, I pay zero taxes and make a lot more. But again, that's the thing David and I, David, you've been stressing is we don't want to tell the world that. We want to keep that secret. But this is like an investor club. Yeah, you don't get you don't get the rest of the world, but listen to this podcast was okay. This clip will not go on social media because we do not want the world to know how good this is.

It's more so that I don't like it being portrayed like we're gloating that we don't have to pay taxes, that you're actually acknowledging that there's work and risk that's going into this. And the tradeoff is you can over taxes if you do it right. Yeah. And can I add to that, David? I believe it might have been Ryan Holiday who talked about that. He's like, he's trying to change his mind about taxes that he actually enjoys paying them.

And that's one thing that I worked on. So even though I try to optimize them, I still try to find joy in paying it, especially in Finland where you say where it goes, where you actually get, you know, free education and health care. And especially in the past couple of years, I've, you know, used the ambulance a couple of times. And just giving birth is just something that makes you appreciate that. That makes sense. Yeah.

So what happened after that? You bought that first property. Where'd you go next? Yeah. So after my lactation epiphany there, maybe that's the title. That's the title of the episode, The Lactation Epiphany.

That could be your book. You could write a book and call it that. Can you? Do you want to write a book with me? We're going to write a book called the Lactation Epiphon. What about like lactation imagination? How my mind was open during this event. Yeah.

That sounds like a band. Yeah, it kind of does actually. It's like Imagine Dragons. But anyway, keep going. All right. It's my favorite band. Is it really? So after lactation epiphany, we moved back to Finland.

Okay. And that meant that I had to quit my job that I loved and made good money from. And all of a sudden, I find myself in the burbs of Helsinki. I'm, no, I don't want to say jobless because being a mom is hard work. So I was incomeless. And I have an eight-month-old and I was pregnant again. So I, that was, it was. it was lonely. I felt so lonely and I kind of lost myself, lost my identity because I had that

tied up in and like the identity. Diapers. Yeah. But it was tied to, you know, my identity of being like the account manager at this blow and driving my fancy car and eating out and like the catwalks and like yin-knit. So I'm like, so I had to make up for it. So quickly I'm like, I need, all right, real estate investing. I'm right. That was my plan. I'm going to do it. So I started doing it from the money standpoint. I'm like, I'm going to make up, I'm going to make as much passively through real estate that I did through my job to make up, like to make up the salary. So I started hustling. And in a couple of years, I built a two million.

Multi-million sounds so much better. But it was. Multi-million dollar. Yeah, like a two-million dollar portfolio at the same time as I, as I, yeah. had our second and third baby, and I started a real estate investing company during that time as well. And have you ever seen a hamster wheel? Sure. But like the hamster is dead.

The wheels turning, but the hamster is dead. Yeah. So I was like, wham-dush, wham-dush, wham-dush. I just going the motions. And the kids were in daycare from like eight to five. and my husband was traveling 150 days. And I'm like, dude, I got some level of freedom because I had a pretty nice portfolio and, you know, we did well.

But I had completely lost it because I had built the job for myself. So I was kind of miserable again. Yeah. All right. So before we go on the next phase then of how you maybe solve that, maybe you didn't. We'll find out. Stay tuned. But first, the word from our sponsor.

I'm just kidding. No. So what did you, like, what was this portfolio like? I mean, where was it at? What were you buying? What types were you buying? What made up that $2 million? Yeah. I started buying in Finland. So that was a brand new market for me. I hadn't lived in Finland. So I was born in Finland, but I only lived there five years. And then my family moved to Sweden. So I knew nothing. I had no network. I hadn't lived there for 10 years at that point. And so I started looking into, I read a ton of books and did what they did.

told me to do. So one of the things they said was, you know, buy apartments and good places that are small and rentable. And I, I bought my first one in a satellite stated to Helsinki, like a downtown. Okay. Yeah. And, you know, I was an income list. Stay at home mom at this point. So going to the bank was interesting. Yeah. Because like, an awesome candidate for getting a loan, not. Yeah. How did that go? Like, I mean, like, what are, loans like to buy in Finland? I know that doesn't benefit most of our audience, but I'm just curious. Like, what does that, what does it like to get a mortgage? What kind of loans do they give? Yeah. So it's kind of the same as here. So even though it's a very different market in many ways,

like the principles are the same. And even when it comes to banking, the one thing that will piss people off that I do have to mention, though, is two things. Closing can be done in like two days. Really? Yes. We don't have like all that paperwork. The other thing is I pay like 0.7. interest rate. Yeah, for 20 to 25 year old, year old. Yeah, year, yeah. That's incredibly low. Like, I've heard of negative interest rates in like Denmark was what negative, right?

But like, I mean, I thought I got a 2.9 the other day on a apartment complex, but 0.7. Yeah, so basically it is negative, but what you pay for is the margin, the part that the bank makes money off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Is that just because they're. trying to get more people to buy? Is it just an incentive to get, so the government keeps it really, really low?

Yeah. And it's not just a Finland thing. It's a Europe thing because, you know, the Finnish banking system is, is driven by the European Central Bank. Okay. Yeah. So you buy these properties. So what did you end up? Did you save it with the down payment for them or did you get a little more creative?

Yeah. I had to get creative, right? Because I didn't have my job anymore. And so I started consulting those ones. So I got a little bit of income from that. started consultancy. And then I pitched it to partners. So I've gotten money in three different ways that I can go through a little later if you want to, but this was number one. So I knew that I needed, was it 20 or maybe in dollars, it was 30, 30,000 dollars. So I pitched it to my brother

and to my husband. But my brother sees me as this like surfing. girl who calls him from Bali 20 years ago going like, hey, dude, I'm all out of money. Can you send me some? That's how he remembers me? So I'm like, how can I change that belief? So I spent a while to think about, okay, who is he, who's my husband? Both of them are. They've got good jobs, but they're engineers. So I'm like, I'm going to talk to them in their love language, which is Excel. So here's what I did. I created an Excel, and it was massive. On one side, my brother also invests. in the stock market. Okay, yep.

So on one side, I put his return. I took like, all right, so if you invest in the stock market, here, the average return over a few years is this or like even just an index level return. And I pulled that over 5, 10, 15, up to 30 years. On the right hand sign of that, I showed what he would be making if he instead invested that money in me and my real estate investing. So calculated, used some metrics like, appreciation and obviously the use of leverage, how that impacts, the cash flow and inflation

and that sort of thing. So I had a few things that I added in. So instead of saying, hey, dude, can you lend your sis 20K? Which is how most people treat it. Which is how, right? But I'm like, this is a business acquisition. So I pitched him not as the sister or my husband as the wife, but as like the business owner. Yeah. So I showed him, here's how much more you'll be making with me. Yeah.

As opposed to. What I want to pull out here is just this important idea of like love languages, right? Or like certain people, like there's a book called the what five love languages, right? And some people respond different ways. Like there's like physical touch and some people like gift giving or receiving gifts. And there's like different love languages when it comes to relationships. The same is true for when you. you pitch an investor.

Yeah, any meeting, really. Yeah, any meeting. Like, there is a way that people want to receive information and a way people want to deliver information. And so knowing your investor, knowing your audience, like you said they're an engineer. They like Excel. They like that data. And so that's a great way to pitch it.

And then if you were talking to somebody that was not that side, which I would guess that, I don't know, 80% of people are probably not that way, I would guess, right? If you're not an engineer or a math nerd, you're probably more of a show me some pretty charts and colors and graphs. It makes people feel really good, which is one reason on the bigger pockets calculators, we do both, right? We have like the bottom. We have all the details, but the top, it's like, here's pretty colors. And it sounds stupid, but like either way, when you appeal to somebody in their love language or their investing language, I don't know what you name for that, their cash flow language, then, yeah, your chance of getting a deal accepted or

a partner brought in is just so much greater. And it's like that how you do anything is how you do everything. And so you put the effort in to even learn how they respond, how they react, but also to actually know your numbers and then they're more likely. So I'm guessing the end of the story there is he did like your brother brought some cash. Yeah, I got both of them on. And later on when I started the LLC or the investing company, they both came on as partners in that as well. Okay. Yeah. And this applies to, I mean, any partners you bring on, like it doesn't be family. It can be. But I think it's even more important for family, though, to treat it that way. Yeah, I was just going to say, so if you're listening,

to this and thinking like, well, I don't have a husband or a brother that has good jobs or money or whatever. Well, you don't have to. It's actually harder to ask and friends to be a part of that. It is super hard. Yeah. I would much rather pitch a random stranger, which is probably why I've raised about $100 million. And I have never once pitched my family. Well, my dad was on my first two deals. And it was the hardest conversation to have. Like, dad, I trying to refinance. I, how house and I can't. Can you, can I put you on the mortgage and then we refinance it? And he was cool with it. And now he's got his retirement like padded because of it. So it was good for him. But that's an awkward conversation with family. It's a lot easier with

friends. One thing that I do, I tip I've shared a number of times, but it's always served me well as instead of directly asking people because I'm like a high eye, I don't like be rejected. I kind of do the passive aggressive way, right? I'll be like, or the passive way. I'm like, hey, do you know anybody who would be interested in landing on this? And it gives people that opportunity to be like, actually, I might be interested. But if they don't, they'll be like, no, I don't know. I'll keep an ear out. And then you know that they are saying no, but you don't have to have the confrontation.

So that's a non-confrontational way to raise money that I've used. I like that tip. Yeah. Yeah. All the high eyes out there just had little light bulbs pop over your head. That could work. Well, that's also why I would always tell my tenants I was a property manager. It's a true statement.

I was managing the property. I was a property manager. I also owned it though. But my wife, well, technically it was owned by like an LLC, right? And then my wife and I were the owners on the LLC. So I would say things either like, I'm this is a property manager. I'll check with the owner. Like, can I have a dog?

I'll check with the owner, which meant my wife. Or, you know, sorry. Yeah, I talked to the owner and they said, you know, they're kind of a jerk. They said you couldn't have the dog. But you know what? I'm still fighting for you. But I'll let you know if that changes. Right.

High eye, Brandon, doesn't have to deal with being like, I'm the bad guy. Now, David, on the other hand, he'll walk in there and be like, yeah, I'm the owner. And no, you can't have your dog. And I'm taking your TV. And then he walks out. That's David. Okay, so let me put in a third example, because I'm like even different from both of you. So what I started doing in Finland was I noticed landlords have kind of a bad rep in Finland, right?

So we're seen as these vultures that take people's money and all that. Like maybe even like slumlord type of situation. So I saw an opportunity there. And then the other opportunity that I saw, I'm like the apartments that are up for rent are terrible. Like they're not, they looked like they were designed by, you know, no one. So my business idea was like, I want to, and this is going to sound mushy, especially to David, who's going to roll his eyes. Yep, there we do. I wanted to create homes with heart and do landlording with love. So I like that, see?

It has a ring to it. It is. It's good. So what that means is so I'm actually really open and tell about, you know, who owns this apartment and who we are and tell a little bit of. about us and our family and kids and like all that. So yeah, but it's cool. It comes with the hard parts. Yes, it does. It does come. That's when you just, my husband said I can't. Like my wife says I can't. Yeah. Let me interject real quick. Before we move on, if no one knows that we're talking about when we say hi, I look up on bigger pockets. Disc profile, D-I-S-C. I wrote an

article for Bigger Pockets that describes it's a personality assessment that talks about the dominant traits in someone's personality. Do you want to run through it just like quick what does each one mean just so people are aware? Yeah. So they all relate to a component of a personality. We all have them, but in different people, they're in different amounts. So your D score is your decisiveness or your dominance. That's how quickly you make a decision in an environment you've never been. These are the people that my, my D score is very high that are comfortable being in environments that we haven't been before and making decisions. But we often act like bulls in a shine of store. I can hurt people's without even knowing that I did it.

So that's what D traits are known for. I scores is your interactive score. This is how much you like being around people. They very much want to be like. They're typically your social butterflies. They're the ones that everyone loves. They like to have fun. They make everything nice.

But they can be a little more sensitive towards rejection. And they're often not as analytical. Just a tad. Right. So eyes are the China that my D tends to break when I get around. Like those are people that I can clash with if I'm not careful. Your S score is your C score. stability score, that's the pace that you like to experience life at and the consistency. So high

S's do not like change. They don't like things getting thrown at them that they didn't expect. You'll often hear high S's say, well, no one told me or I thought the plan was fill in the blank. That's another one that Ds will often clash with because I can change my mind four times in the 30 minutes about what we're going to do. And that can be very difficult to S's who are getting used to what the plan's going to be. They tend to be the most loyal people that. You know, you'll ever work with. They don't like conflict. They tend to smooth everything out and they don't speak up for themselves as often. So S is will take abuse and take abuse and take abuse and then finally they just snap and you're like, well, where did that come from? But they were like, it's been three years.

Yeah, I'm a high. I'm a high I. I'm high. I'm high. So Brandon isn't going to tell me if I'm doing something that irritates him. He's not going to want to upset us, right? So knowing that I have to proactively dig with Brandon and say, hey, have I pissed you off lately? Or what am I doing? that's irritating you and like yeah you know it's not not anything that okay there's something there i got to go a little bit more i got you david i'm i'm i d so i'm like the eyes and IDs tend to be the best salespeople in almost every industry like the top real estate agents or law officers they're always the greatest salespeople because they yeah they take massive action that's what these are known for and they love to be around people like i i am a good business owner but not a great salesperson

because interactions with humans wears me out that's probably going to come up later in this podcast as we can talk about how that shows up. And then your high C score, like we have a friend Andrew Cushman and his nickname is high C because he's super analytical. This is your conscientiousness score. I need them in my life. These are your analytical people. These are the ones that we all like, oh, thank God, we have one of them.

They love spreadsheets. They love formulas. They love analyzing things. These are engineers, architects, doctors, lawyers, mechanics. People who love to kind of take the chaos of the world and create order out of it. They put a lot of attention to detail. The job they do is incredibly important to them. Bookkeepers, CPAs, right?

They know all these rules, but they can be a little tone deaf. Their eye score is often lower, so they don't get along with people as well. Like, this is the awkward genius that can sit in the cubicle in the back and write code that we could never understand. But they show up with like pizza stains on their shirt every day. Can't understand why they don't have a girlfriend. That's like your C score. So you want to know more about that. I wrote an article on this four bigger pockets.

You can go check it out for some. Yeah, we'll put a link in the show notes. I don't know what I show number this is, but whatever it is. put a link in the show notes. Biggerpockets.com slash show and then the number, but I'll look it up in a minute. All right. Let's move on. So you said here, you built this portfolio, but now you're like still working a ton to manage all these properties. What came next in your story? Yeah. So I had lost the freedom, right? I was working away. And it was because I was afraid of giving up control. Yeah. Right? And yeah. Your story drives with me.

So then 2020 happened. And 2020 was hard for all of us and especially for our family. And I'm going to start crying, but I love talking about this. So I hope you're okay. Yeah. You'll make me cry. Yeah. I know it's coming.

So I got pregnant again and with our third baby, Millie. And pretty early on we found out that it was a high-risk pregnancy. So I couldn't be building stuff anymore because I used to DIY. Yeah. I was going to say shiz. So I used to do everything myself. So for the first time, I had two massive projects going on at this time. My biggest flip and another project.

So I had to hire it out. So my friend Jenny, who's a G.C, she took both projects on fully. And I needed to spend time with Millie. So early on, they thought. thought that she might have something called trisomy 13. But then in the middle of the pregnancy, I didn't want to do the test to find out. But in the middle of the pregnancy, we found out it was confirmed that she did in fact have trisomy 13. And for you guys that don't know, that means they don't live long.

Yeah. So they told us that she would probably make it for a few weeks. So we were expecting her to come. So I spent a lot of time just focusing inwards and pausing. And in October, she was born. And it was a beautiful day, but also the hardest day of my life because her heart wasn't beating anymore. So Millie was still born.

And she was supposed to be a rainbow baby. And for you guys who don't know what that means, it means the baby that comes after loss. Because prior to Millie, we had lost three babies at earlier stages. And one of them was an ectopic pregnancy that almost took my life. So it had been a couple rough years. And for the first time, I needed to be brave for Millie to give her a chance. And she made us up right out.

after her funeral last fall, my husband was like, so it was a dark time for me. My husband's like, what do you, what do you dream of? What would you want to do? And I had lost myself again, like completely. And I still don't know who I'll be after losing her. I'm still working on that. And I'm like, you know what, that house that we bought six years ago in four colors, I've always dreamt about designing that. Because that was one thing that helped me during grief was design like doing arts and doing beautiful things. So because I was on maternity leave and I didn't have a baby. So my arms, there's this thing called empty, what's I called like empty arm syndrome. So my arms ached. So I needed to do something. So art helped me. So I'm like

for Collins, Colorado. And that was a big thing for us. Our lives were in Finland at this point. And my husband's work was there. So we started thinking about that. And in July of this year, we took the leap. We moved to Fort Collins for an epic family adventure. And just enjoying the plateau, if you will, like enjoying the freedom that we had already gained, but kind of forgot in the pace of moving forward, chasing our dreams. We're like, well, actually, we kind of made it.

can we take a moment? So in the end, Millie ended up being a rainbow baby, just in a different way. She just helps us, like, reminds us to see the rainbow and to like pause. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where we're at now. We're back in Fort Collins. Kind of the circle is completed. And the kids are with us all day.

Every day. And it's also, it's intense and it's hard because we're at the same time. We live and flipping this house. Right. So it's the 23,000 square foot single family home that we're now. Wait, how are we? 23,000? Okay.

Yeah, 2300? Okay. I was like 23,000. That sounds like royalty in Finland. Yes. Oh, she didn't mention she was the Finnish queen. Yes, exactly. Is there a queen in Finland? I don't know. Is that a thing?

No, we have a precedent, but a female. No, I'm sorry. Not a female president. I would take that, but yeah. The prime minister is female. A non-female. A non-female prime minister. Yeah. Oh, okay. That was a lot. Heavy. Heavy. Yeah. I, uh. But also a lot of lights.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. There's a lot of love in that story for me. Well, I remember you posting about it after it happened on social. and like, man, like, I just feel for you. Like, my wife and I were just like, I mean, we did cry for you. And it's a terrible thing. And you know because of Rosie and what happened, like, the end result was different for you, but you know the feeling like when you're at the doctors and you're like.

Yeah. It's something I wouldn't want to wish I'm worth enemy. But, yeah. Thank you. Come here. Come here. You can't just not hug that one out. Can I just share?

I told Heather this. So when I was in Maui just recently, your son came up to me. And he kind of just went straight for me and just hugged me. And I kind of think that he maybe thought that I was Heather because I just saw legs. But also there's a part of me of like babies have a connection. Like he was up there not too long ago. Yeah. So yeah.

So thank you to him for that. That's cool. Yeah. That's cool. All right. Well, let's, okay, let's talk. Let's talk. I want to get some advice from you for the audience, for those people listening. We'll start with some real estate stuff. People who are in your shoes and they're saying, like, I don't have a lot of money right now. The market's crazy. I got to start doing this thing. What's the first thing they should do? I mean, what would you advise for somebody who's just getting started right now? I had the pleasure of working with JJ Abrams in Silicon Valley. And he's legit. Yeah, that guy is like, the guy. Yeah. Yeah.

So he's legit because he's very good at what he does. But this story is about why I think he's successful. And it happened he was about to go on stage. And my team was backstage to help all the presenters. and it's a few minutes before and his presentation keeps crashing because obviously has a lot of video material in there, right? So our art director, Kevin, steps up and it's like obviously high, high, like, what's that called? Like, stress.

Yeah. He saves the moment, so he fixes the presentation and instead of JJ just jumping up, he was a couple of minutes late for his presentation. and his keynote, for like 5,000 people in the audience. He pauses and he goes around the entire room. He hugs Kevin and then he goes through everybody in the room. We were maybe like 10 in there and shakes everybody's hand. Looks us in the eyes and he goes, thank you.

And I think that just taught me like be an effing pleasure to work with. Right? So you need to know yourself. That's basic. Like you need to approach people with some kind of value in terms of like you always say, you need to have time, you need to have hustle, you need to have some sort of knowledge or you need to have money. But if you don't have money, then always make sure that you're really cool to be around. Yes, I think that's my number one. All right.

That's good. If you want a short-term rental, here's something worth knowing. Not all landlord policies are built for your type of property. And with holiday bookings, chilly weather, and higher guest turnover, having the right coverage is more important than ever. Steadily offers insurance designed specifically for short-term rentals, covering property damage, liability, lost rental income, and even unexpected issues like bedbugs. Steadily works exclusively with real estate investors. So they understand the details that make short-term rentals unique and they build coverage to match it. A quick review of your rates and coverage every year can help you protect your property and your cash flow.

Get a quote in minutes at biggerpockets.com slash landlord insurance. Steadily, rental property insurance for the modern investor. For decades, real estate has been a cornerstone of the world's largest portfolios. But it's also historically been sort of complex, time-consuming, and expensive. But imagine if real estate investing was suddenly easy, all the benefits of owning real, tangible assets without the complexity and expense. That's the power of the Fundrise flagship fund. Now you can invest in a $1.1 billion portfolio,

of real estate, starting with as little as $10. The portfolio features 4,700 a single-family rental homes spread across the booming sunbelt. They also have 3.3 million square feet of highly sought after industrial facilities, thanks to the e-commerce wave. The flagship fund is one of the largest of its kind. It's well diversified, and it's managed by a team of professionals. And it's now available to you.

Visit fundrise.com slash BP Market to explore the fund's full portfolio, check out historical returns, and start investing in just minutes. Carefully consider the investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses of the Fundrise Flagship Fund. This and other information can be found in the fund's perspectives at fundrise.com slash flagship. This is a paid advertisement. Managing properties can feel like a full-on circus. You're juggling vendors, tracking payments, chasing approvals across multiple properties, and maybe a few HOAs, all while trying to keep tenants happy and owners confident.

One delay can throw everything off, and suddenly your day is all clean up, no progress. That's why hundreds of property managers rely on bill to streamline their finances. Bill for property management lets you add all your properties, assign permissions, pay bills, and receive payments quickly and efficiently, without the usual bottlenecks. It syncs with platforms like QuickBooks, Zero, NetSuite, and Sage intact, so your accounting stays aligned. You can automate bulk payments across properties and HOAs.

Choose flexible payment methods like Same Day ACH, international wires, card, or check, and set custom roles in approval policies. There's even a dedicated bill inbox for each property to keep everything organized. Ready to simplify your workflow, book your free demo at bill.com slash bigger pockets, and get a $100 Amazon gift card. That's bill.com slash bigger pockets. Tired of traditional lenders holding you back, host financial is here to change the game.

They've ditched the DTI restrictions and they zero in on what really matters, your property's income potential. So no more chasing papers for tax. returns or personal income statements. Think about it. A lender that values your property's worth over your paycheck. That's the host financial difference. Approved in 47 states, they are ready to help you make your next big move.

Curious if you qualify, just head over to hostfinancial.com and find out. Stop letting outdated lending practices hold you back. That's hostfinancial.com where your property's potential meets unlimited financing. All right. There's some more questions. You know, we talked a bit about heartbreak on this episode, and I want to talk about another heartbreak and that was David's heartbreak. Who wants to tell that story? Well, I can tell it, but it was the other way around. Oh, was it? Okay. Oh, okay. I thought, I thought, I heard David

was heartbroken over it. Okay. Well, maybe, maybe if he was, I don't know. Okay, let's hear this. Oh, man. Another story of Nashville. Okay. A lot of things happen in Nashville, man. What happens in Nashville gets told on a podcast. Yeah. I'm like what happens here in Vegas. All right. So I'm in Nashville. I meet David for the first time. I shake his hand, tell my name, and afterwards, I reached back out to him.

And he does not remember ever meeting me. So, yeah. So that's like a little bit. Okay, but it continues. Okay. So, David, you gave a keynote that day. I think you had flown all night. Remember that?

Something happened with your flight. My flight was delayed and I had to stay at a hotel and like an hour of sleep and then showed up right before I had to speak. Yep. So me, you know, the kind person as I am reached out to you and I'm like, so, okay, it was great meeting you, David. I used to work at the, you know, the world's leading presentation agency in Silicon Valley. Do you mind if I, like, would you want some pointers and then feedback on your keynote presentation? And you, you know, as a person who loves to grow, you're like, yeah, I'd love to. So I'm like, David responded.

Oh, my God. So he doesn't remember. That's fine. But he responded. So I type up this essay to you of like all the things like here's, you know, this was great. Here's something you can work on. And blah, blah.

Crickets. And my husband's like, dude, what did you do? You just ruined your career. Like you're blacklisted from everything from now on. And, and I'm like, oh. God. And here's a part that you don't know, David. And nobody knows, really. So I don't hear in a few days about this. I'm at my friend, Sleana, in Stockholm, Sweden. And I have the day you actually write me back is the day I have found out that the pregnancy, the baby that was expecting

then in week 10, the heart wasn't beating. So I'm crushed. And, and, you're not. And, you respond this day and you say, Maria, do you remember what you wrote me? It's okay if you say no. Yeah, I don't remember the details of it. Yeah. So you wrote, Maria, this is probably the best thing I have ever read in my life. So just that kindness, I'm going to cry again. No, you know, it was a hard day for me, obviously. So just a piece of kindness can do so much. So thank you for that. Yeah. Wow. That's really good. I think that's probably a situation Brandon and I find ourselves in more times than we would like to with all the things that we have going on. And that's why I'm saying it's it's you feel like or I feel like a bullet of China shop a lot of the time because I did remember meeting you, Maria.

In fact, I remember in Nashville, you were with investor girl Brit and a few other ladies on your way out and non-n males. A few other non-mails. And you guys were heading off to dinner and I was going somewhere else and it was like the high pitch. We're getting canceled over this show. David. And I turned around and Brittany was there and a bunch of the rest of you were there. And I do remember seeing you, but I couldn't remember your name, which is also a common thing where you see someone's face.

You're like, oh yeah, they're all over bigger pockets. But I don't remember where I know them from. So I did remember you. I just didn't want to get sucked into a conversation where it's going to be obvious. And I'm like, hey, you, right? One of those things. And then when you gave me the feedback on the speech, it was. It was very long. It was probably like three bubbles log of information. So it was, it's hard for me to

be able to read through all that. Still think of a thoughtful response. And so I probably just read it wasn't able to get back to it right away. Do you remember what you told David? What did he suck at? Do you want me to go through some? I do remember. Okay. What did David? What did David need to improve on? Because okay, public speaking is a thing that you have to do when you're a real estate investor. You don't have to, but a lot of us do, whether it's at a conference or just pitching your, your friend or whatever. So help us improve. Well, I, can give you one thing that I told David. And it was...

Notice how I didn't ask you to say anything about me because I'm a high eye. So I told you that... Let's dissect David on the show. Let's look at David that he could handle it. He's a D. He's good. I told David that he... I can tell that he's so passionate about this,

but that level of passion can come across as aggression when he's on stage that he's so intense on there. So I told him to slow down a little bit and soften it up. and this is important for everybody. And especially maybe Americans to bring contrasts. So, like, sometimes be a little quiet and slow down. And then you can come back and be like, and that contrast is key in keeping the audience attention.

First, you need to grab it and then you need to hold it. And the holding is a difficult part. And that's where the contrast comes in. And the other part was, I think I told you to to stand still a little more and pick one person and look in their eyes for three seconds because that gives a sense of empathy to the audience. So if you look at one person, it makes everybody feel like you're talking to them. It's weird. Yeah.

But it's true. So. And three seconds feels like a long-ass time for the speaker. But it's not for the audience. Trying to do it right now. I'm like, okay. That's good. And I was going to say, notice how she didn't correct my speech, but then I realized that's how we started this interview.

Would you tell me how horrible I sounded? So we don't need to go there. We're not going to rehash that anymore. I want to go back into real estate a little bit and some topics here. Specifically, I want to talk about what's about finding money today? Like raising money or finding money, getting mortgage, getting loans. What have you found works with that? What have you had success with?

You want to get into my sweet, sweet four steps of getting a loan, the Maria way? Do you have a little trademark on that? I hope you do. You have a jingle and a trademark on it. I can work on the jingle if you work on like the what's I called the abbreviation. Yeah, I can do the acronyms. I'm pretty good at acronyms. And Dave will give you an analogy.

Yeah. It'll be perfect. All right. So you got the jingle. I got the acronym. Okay. What is the four? The four.

All right. So this is how I secured a 550,000 bank loan for a newly started LLC with no income and I say a stay-at-home mom. Okay. Boom. And it's something that everybody can do. Number one, I'm going into the bank. Bring her baby who's 10-month-old and then forget that you bring that baby. So I'm pitching. I'm so into the pitching. My baby's cell as like under the table.

And when I'm done pitching, I look under. And she has ran havoc in my purse. Like all of my stuff. There's food everywhere. Even what do you call it? like a feminine pad. Like, you know, so she's ripped out a feminine pad. It's like stuck to the banker's shoe. And he's like, um, is this yours? Like, super. So start with that.

I can do that. Yeah. Number two. Here's where we get into the real stuff. Number one was bring your 10 month old baby and forget him. You're okay. What's the second one? Number two.

And you touched on this. It's you have got to get to know your audience. Like put on, yeah. What's his name? Magnum P.I. Put those pants on. I don't know. I'm not that old.

Right. Okay. So what are they like, the person you're talking to? So for me, what's a banker like? I asked around people who had worked with him before. I stalked his Facebook. I saw that he had kids. I saw pictures of them.

I'm like, I knew that he would be okay with me bringing a baby in there. He'd have empathy there. So what keeps them up at night? Well, when it comes to a bank, it's always risk. How can I mitigate that? So I came in with like a 20 page business plan and a huge part of that was a risk mitigation plan. All right. What's my exit strategy?

What's how do I get around like a market crash while I buy under market price? And so I had like a few key things. And how can you solve their problems is a big one. And how can you make them shine? And I love the way you talk about this. David and your Burr book. You'll go into like specific. details when it comes to a bank. Is it a small bank? Do they need more liquidity to be able to give

out more loans? Do you have a friend with money that can start saving there? Can you start saving there? So I opened up an account with them even though I didn't need it. I started putting money in there every month. And also I'm like, what's the KPI that he gets measured on? Probably selling a lot of other crap. So I'm like, I bought everything. So he's like, here's this thing. I'm like, I'll get it. Yes, give me. So I spent like maybe, I don't know, $100 or $1,000 and just you know, buying all the extra stuff just to make him look good. And also introduce him to a bunch of other investors. Oh, that's a good idea.

So that he got more business. And what do you want them to do? Right? So I went in on like, I want the money, but I just, I don't want just that. I want a partner, right? I want a bank that can grow with me. So think about that when you go in then. And also think about how will they risk?

assists and how can you best reach them? So this is the same thing, right? What's their choice of medium? Do I bring in Excel? Yes, to a bank, always bring in Excel, bring a lot of hockey sticks, right? And then with the hockey stick, I mean, exactly, the graph that goes up and, you know, here's the plan for how I'm going to make the business grow and how you're going to be making a lot of money off of me. Yeah, I like that idea of thinking about like if that their biggest concern is risk, right? Yeah. And that's going to be always there. Like a bank's job. Like they make money by lending out money. Because it was such a thing I didn't understand earlier in my career is like banks are not guarding money like it's like the Harry Potter vault.

You know, like they're not like, yeah, some of them act that way. But like they, the only way a bank survives is by lending out money. That is what they do. And the more they do it, the more money they make. And the more they make it in bonuses and their job. Like they make money by lending money. So they want to do. They're on your side if you can get like convince them.

And that's like you said. It's how you present it, what media you do, what your risk mitigation plan is, all that. All right. So that's good. Go know your audience. Yeah. Can I give one last example on that? That's very specific.

So in Finland, we use a lot of ARM loans. So adjustable rate mortgages, as opposed to we don't have like a 30 year fixed as an option. So I showed up with a plan for what will happen if the rates go up to 1%, 3%, 6%, and a plan for each. So I think that's one thing. if you do use ARMs or any other type of risk scenario that you're in in your market come with a plan for each of them. Very cool. All right.

You know, that sort of ties back to the disc model. We should highlight that. Yeah, it does. Yeah. You want to present information to other people in the way that they value. So an Excel spreadsheet that shows risk mitigation is very powerful to a high C who's looking at that. And that's probably your decision maker.

No way, like bringing their favorite kind of bun cake isn't going to be as big of a deal to a high C as to the high eye who may be like the sales rep that gets you the meeting with the high C. So tailoring your approach to the values of the person you're talking to will always get you further than just doing for someone else what you would want done for yourself, assuming everyone's like you. Yeah. And also maybe to challenge that a little bit, David, or add to it is even though a person is driven by data, all decisions are made through an emotional connection because that's a part of the brain that drives us. So even though you don't think that,

and that brings us to number three, define how you're going to transform the audience, and that includes how they feel about you. So everybody, when you come into a room and you're about to pitch or have a meeting or whatever, they think something and they feel something about who you are. And figure that out. Think about that.

What do they think about you when you walk in? and what do you want them to think when you head out? All right? So to give you an example of what I did, I was pretty sure they're going to look at me and go like, all right, oh gosh, this is a brand new LLC. And instead I wanted them to think, like, she's an experience as investor.

Because at this point, I had already built like a $2 million portfolio, right? So then I thought, how can I make them see that? Well, I brought in a massive Excel where I showed like all my deals with like 20 metrics for each. each. And he's like, whoa, not even engineers come in with this. So I'm like, I moved him over. Number two, they're going to see a risk of default. We had $2,500 at the LLC's account. And I wanted them to see these owners and this entrepreneur, she has like, she's financially savvy. And the way I could show that I came up with, I brought an Excel again.

for the net worth of my family as well as my brother's family, because he was the three of us, me, my husband, and my brother. And I showed over a period of like three to five years how our net worth had progressed. And yeah, I'm like, I'm pretty proud of that. Like I heard myself pause a little bit. And the last one, they're going to think about, and these are just examples.

I had like 10 of these. They're going to think about the market risk. Okay. So I want them to instead see, hey, this investment is worth taking the risk for us. And the way I did that is, like I mentioned, I had the risk mitigation plan and the business plan to kind of all the questions that we'd have asked. I'm like, well, that's page five. And it doesn't really matter what you say. There is just the fact that you've thought of that, right?

Yeah, that's what I was going to say is like at some level now, when that banker or that person or that lender, that price, Lender, that hard money lender, that partner, whatever, when they see that you've done that level of work, that's, they instantly, whether it's consciously or subconsciously, they instantly think if that's what they do to prepare to do this, what are they going to actually do in the actual work? So like it's that same thing we say over and over and over. How you do anything is how you do everything. And, and you've just proven that.

Like you said, it doesn't even matter that much what you say. It's more important than you say it in a lot of it and like in a way that they understand and respect. Yep. Exactly. All right, moving on. You ready? So that was number three, right? That was three. Okay. Here comes number four. Find common ground, right? So choose a banker that is an investor themselves or choose a banker that understands real estate investing. So I knew that. So I started by asking about his. And we had shared experiences and we bonded over that. And also after that, you can see if you have like common goals, right? We want to grow together. I want to help your bank grow. And then you can get into like the qualifications of why you're uniquely qualified to do that with them. Last one. Last one. I thought it was only four steps. No, it's fine. Well, because this is the bonus. Or maybe I wrote the wrong number

when I pitched it. Or maybe the first one doesn't count. Maybe the first one was a bonus. All right. Stick out like a dog's balls. So at the agency, yes. So at the agency, yes. So at the agency that I work at. We, for every presentation, you should have a star moment. And that stands for you love this. Something they'll always remember. Oh, something they'll always remember. Star, I like it. Look at that. So don't be afraid of being you. Like bring, like you do you, boo. I came in like as a whirlwind I am and I was me, you know, forgot about the baby, but he saw the passion that I came with. I came in with a point of view, you know, with the vision that I had for the company and the model. And that was something that he wanted to get behind. So I think that's an important part.

You don't have to be also like buttoned up. That's not what makes you professional. Agreed. Yeah. There is something magical about standing out. Mr. Flip Flops. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I grew the beard as a way to stand out. I don't mean that in a bad way. Maybe it's a bad way. But like, like there's so much vanilla in the world, right? Like, no,

like there's something that people need to grab onto. It's why things like house hacking and burr took off. It's why things like, like the pot, why our podcast took off. It's why people invest with the open door capital, like with my company is like there's things we do to stand out on individual basis and on wide.

And like, it's not just me. It's like all, all the best investors that I know have that like, we're not like everyone else. We're not just vanilla. It doesn't mean you're like immature. It just means you're showcasing who you really are.

Because people can see when you're hiding who you are and they can't see who you really are. They're going to fear who you really are. They're going to fear who you really are. They're like, oh, they must be a weirdo. You've taught me a lot about that, about the branding aspect of like, if you just, you talk about yourself and now we're kind of getting into social media a little bit as well. But if you talk about yourself just as an investor, well, there's thousands of us out there. But if you talk about yourself, so for me, maybe it's like, all right, I'm an investor,

but I'm also like a comms experience. Like maybe you have like two things come together and I'm butchering you tell it so much better. It's the intersection of two interests. The intersection. There you go. Yes. If you're there, then you're people like that. So yeah, I am.

I like it. Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, that's the last one, dogs, balls. Stick out like a dog's ball. That's going to be your next. book. That's going to be your book. It's going to be called the dog ball theory. And it's about how to

stand out in a world of vanilla. Yes. So it's shoe dog and me. Yes, exactly. I like that. You'll blow a shoe dog out of the water. It'll be great. All right. We got to start moving towards the end. David, I don't want to rob any more questions. You might have lined up. If not, I will ask the broad question of, is there anything that I didn't ask you today, Maria, that you wish I would of or anything that you thought, I can help people with this thing. Hmm. Maybe one thing. So everything that you do comes with, I want to say shiz, but I'm going to use poo instead.

So everything comes with a poo sandwich. Okay. So you've talked about this. It's like if you want to be a rock star, the poo sandwiches, you have to play guitar five hours a day. I don't think I've ever said the word poo sandwich in my life. And I'm told, I didn't come up with that. It's Elizabeth Gilbert wrote that in a book, Big Magic. That is amazing.

Anyways. So. She's an eat, pray, love lady, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She really. I've not read anything yet, but.

Do you. Okay. So if you're nervous or if you're like nervous about going on stage or public speaking, which is very common, or me coming on this pod, right, haven't been able to eat for a week. But I'm like, am I willing to eat that poo sandwich? Because I love performing. I love teaching people. I love being on pods and entertaining and making people laugh. And right. So I'm like, yeah, I'm going to eat that sandwich. Give me yours. All right. I'll eat all of the sandwiches as long as I get to do this. So I think, like, are you willing to eat the poo sandwich that comes with what you

want to do? That's really good. It reminds me a bit of what, I think, Mark Manson, right? In the subtle art of not giving a fudge, we'll say. Giving a poo. Yeah, he says, like, rather than setting a goal for, like, what you want, like, ask yourself, what am I willing to, you know, like, work, like, suffer for or die for or whatever. Who you are is defined, but what you're willing to suffer for. Yeah, yeah, that's what that line is.

That's so good. Like, and that's what at BPCon this year, the speech I gave was on a lot about alignment. And I talk about passion, the word passion, like the root word of passion actually means to suffer. That's why we say the passion of the Christ. That's why the movie in the term passion of the Christ is the suffer. So like, I'm passionate about real estate. Why are you willing to suffer for that? I'm passionate to run a marathon.

Are you or are you infatuated with it or are you just lusting after that thing? Or are you truly passionate? And that's the true sign of passion is suffering. And we have, yeah. There's one more awesome resource for that, the atomic habits. Yeah. That's one of my favorite episodes that you did. When he was that book, I was so mad at him because everything in there, I was like, I wanted to write this book. He just did a way better job than I could ever do it.

So it was amazing. For you guys who haven't read it, I wanted to, can I share something? So for all of you who don't even know what that thing for you is, like if you don't even know what you love or like what your passion is, here are a few questions that he asked in that book that really job with me. So when are you enjoying yourself when others are complaining? Oh, that's amazing. The work that hurts you less than others is the work that you're meant to do. What makes you lose track of time? Where do you get greater returns than the average person? And what comes naturally to you really? Like when have you felt alive? Like the real you? Oh, my life makes me want to cry. You're going to like tomorrow. I'm going to ask one to the

questions tomorrow. Oh, gosh. Tomorrow, a goal setting. day we're going to, yeah, we're going to hit those questions and more. You're going to love it. Okay. Perfect. It's going to be great. Because that I love, what's the quote from like Tim Ferriss? He always says like the quality of your life is determined by the quality of your questions. Yeah, ask better questions. Yeah, ask better questions. Get better, better answers. And yeah, I really love good questions. I think in the, in like the goal setting, like whenever I do go any kind of goal setting, I'm always like, I'll ask myself like a hundred questions first of like that those type of questions. Because when you start

thinking differently, that's when your life starts to change. Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. Moving on, it's time for the famous four. Time to get to the famous four. All right. The same four questions we ask every guest every week.

And we're going to ask you now. Hmm. Do you have a current or all-time favorite real estate related book besides all of mine, obviously, obviously? Obvious. Okay. Favorite real estate book? Yeah.

One that impacted the move. we did this year of kind of taking a, what do you call it, like a Sabbath year. Sabatical. Sabatical. Like I'm doing right in a few weeks. Yeah. Retire early through real estate, Chad Carson. Chad Carson.

Yeah. That guy is legit. Yeah. Chad made a huge impression on me in Nashville as well. So really thankful for in that book. He talks about, you know, enjoying the plateaus. Yeah. And it's hard for me to slow down as, you know, high high D. I and hidey to slow down and enjoy and not just keep moving.

And so true story. So I'm, after B. P. On this year, I went to Disney World with Rosie and Wilder and Heather. And it was late one night and the kids were cranky. We're at Epcot Center.

And we're just like, we need just going to go find a place to sit down and like relax for a little bit. And so we find this like grassy area has a bunch of picnic tables on it. And there's like one picnic table. It's like empty. And so I go sit down there and we're eating at some food that we had. And so their family comes up and sits down at the table too because it's the only one left. And we're sitting there eating. And I look up and it's Chad Carson.

No. Yeah. And he didn't realize I was sitting there. I didn't realize. Like, and we're just both sitting at this table. We look up and just like catch eyes at each other of like, I'm like Chad. And he's like, Brandon. So anyway, Chad Carson, Disney World, 20, 21. It was great. We ended up talking for like an hour and a half and the kids played together. He is like the real deal. Like his whole book like retired early with real estate. Like he is the guy that's like not like I'm super ambitious. like I want to have billions of dollars. But like he's just like, yeah, I just want a good life.

Yeah. That book is all about that. It was a good reminder. Like, have you guys seen Seoul, the movie? Yeah. Yeah. So I've been the little fish for a long time. It was like, hey, you know, I'm looking for the ocean.

And the older dude is like, well, you're in it. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. This is just water. I'm looking for the ocean. Right? I'm like, stop looking and see. Yeah. All right.

So he helped me with that. So Coach Carson, right? Coach Carson.com is Chad's website. Yeah. Cool. All right, David. Next question. What is your favorite business book?

One of my favorites is called Resonate by Nancy Dwarte. Have you read it? Never heard of them. I love new book organizations. Yeah. Yeah. So she's the one who, she's the CEO and the founder of the agency that I worked for. Okay.

And so I came out of it. And this book just shifted my take on how. how to talk to people, how to present and how to everything that we've talked today about, really, about how to make that connection with your audience and how to keep it. So, yeah, resonate. It's a really good one. Also, I'm just really thankful for them taking a huge risk with me, you know, hiring some rando Finnish girl with like a physical therapy bachelor degree, like working at a marketing agency

or like a comms agency. That's cool. Yeah. All right. All right. Any other books you want to recommend? Is that good? Oh, dude. I have like a list of 50. Yeah. I know we say favorite book, but you could list more. Just anything about... Oh, you do have a list. I do. I told you. I'd come prepared to these things. Every, everything by Brune Brown. Just about being vulnerable and about daring and how to do things despite it being scary. Yeah. So, you know, none of this like fearless crap. Like, I'm scared all.

the time. I just do things anyways. Like that's, that's what I want to teach my kids. Like, that's what being brave is about. Like, you can feel two feelings at the same time. Yeah. I heard a quote when I was really young that always stuck with me that you literally cannot have courage without fear. Yeah. And then I remember there was a Marcus Aurelis quote. I'm going to butcher it, but it was something along the lines of the most important virtue to have is courage, because without it, you can't have any of the other virtues. So that always stuck with me that when you're feeling fear, that is not a sign you're doing something wrong. You're not supposed to wait for fear to go away before you do something. It's like you said, have another feeling at the

time, have courage spring up and be stronger than the fear and take action in spite of it. I also love, and we could do a whole other episode on just fear, but I love the sense of the idea of like taking fear and being like, all right, we're going on a road trip. You can join. Thanks for being here. I know you're trying to hold an eye out for me. You can sit in the back. You can. You can sit in the back. you can't sit in the front, you can definitely not tell me where we're going, and you cannot touch the music. So that's what I keep, I try to tell myself, I'm like, all right, hey, buddy, come on, join the ride. Same thing with like, what's that called, like, self-criticism. I know that it's going to be there.

I always have it. After this, I'm going to go, like, sit in the corner for five minutes, and I'm going to let it come. I'm like, hey, great, that you're here. Let's bash this out, do it for five minutes, and then I'm going to come out of my corner and be like, that's it. it, I'm not allowed to think about this anymore. I love it. Yeah. You got to have that.

Otherwise, you can't be friends with Brandon because you never know the next time he's going to call you fat or criticize your clothes. Fears will always be present. I just said don't wear pajamas because you asked me something. Anyway, no, there was more. And that's why I didn't get invited to Vegas because you're like, David, I would love you to be here. But these people, they look like me and Maria. And I don't know that this is right. What happened.

I think I invited you 400 times. And he's like, go, go, go. responsibilities in life. I have to have like make money and stuff. Lame, David. You can be sitting here right now in the room with Marie and me. In that 7,000 square foot place. $7,500 square foot private pet house suite. We could be running around playing Marco Polo right now. We could totally be played Marco Polo in here.

What true story. They didn't even let me in when I ran the doorbook. Really? Oh, yeah, that's true. We didn't hear the doorbell because it was too far away. Yeah, there was a couple others here that we were, I was giving a tour to the 7500 square foot suite. It comes with like a golf cart that you can use to drive around your entire suite. Actually, I was given a tour to Noah and Jeff, who were guests on the podcast back like a month or two ago. So they're here as well.

So I know much others. There's actually a lot of podcasts guests here this week. It's great. All right. Well, we got to start moving on. David, next question. Next question. What are some of your hobbies?

Hobbies. I used to do competitive level running. So I... I'm going to run right now. I'm going to take you down. so fast. Well, it's long enough. 400 meters was my jam. So what I do now is I can't really call that running because it's more like too slow to be called running. But I do love to be out in nature and forest bathing. What is that? So it's when you immerse yourself in stillness in the forest. It's a

Japanese thing. And Ryan Holliday talks about that, I think, in stillness is the key. Awesome. book. So I started doing that when I was pregnant with Millie. And that was the place where I connected with her the most. So I keep doing that. So nature. And then there's something amazing yet about getting in nature. Yeah. Dude, I mean, they're like literal things that happen to your brain when you're immersed in the forest for five minutes. Like, I'm not making this up. I think it was like bathing in the forest. I'm like, it's too cold to actually bathe in a pool in the forest. But it is winter right now. So anyway, keep going. Yep. And then I have this passion for thrifting.

And I guess it's, I love seeing potential in things. So glaming up old furniture and designing furniture. I love doing that. I went through a phase in like 18, 17, 18, 19 where all my clothes came from thrift shops. Yeah. And it was just like, I would not wear clothes that were not thrift shop clothes. And some of the best clothes I ever owned were thrift shop clothes. I had one that said math rules.

There's numbers all over it. And it was my favorite shirt for a long time. time, math rules. Cool. Yeah, I had another one called it. It was the, not AV Club, some other club it was part of. There was some good, I'm going to go back into that. You're such a nerd.

That's awesome. I was such a nerd. President of the A.V. Club. It was great. Can I add one thing? I recently started writing again. Writing? Yeah.

That I haven't done in a couple years. It's just been too painful, I think. Yeah, we already decided on it, dude. Dug. Duh. Yeah. Yeah. So, but it's been really helpful in like finding my focus and like the healing process and grief. So highly recommend it. I highly recommend it. Like Hal Elrod. What's that what's his acronym again? Smart. Savors. Savors. Yeah. Scribing. That's my choice of poison.

All right. I'm, I'm right there with you. I love it. All right. Next question is mine, I guess. what separates successful real estate investors from all those who give up fail or never get started? The big one. The big one. Have you heard of finish Sisu? Sisu. Sisu. Is that the name of the dragon on that one, Disney movie?

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think it's spelled the same way. It's S-I-S-U. And it's this, you can't really translate it to English because it has so much in it. Like FICA? Like FICA?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Sisu is this inner courage and grits. And it's not just like momentary, momentary courage, but sustained courage over time. And Finland was in war against Russia in the Second World War. And just a couple of days ago was Finland's Independence Day. And next week, I'm actually, I'm going home to my grandma's funeral.

and she was one of the last veterans that were alive from that war. She was just a teenager when she volunteered in that. So to answer your question, I think it takes different things at different times. So I think you need to be curious. I think you need to be open to letting go of control. I think you need to be creative. But none of that matters. if you don't have Sisu or some level of grits and sticking with it.

That's so good. So good. So good. I can't say that much longer, David. He always makes one of me for him again. So good. All right. Before we move on, Fika.

Can you explain that one? Fika. Is that one that one that's saying right? Yeah. We bonded over Fika in Nashville. Yeah. It was, yeah, it was awesome. I think I redeemed myself with that.

You may have. Because Bren is like, have you guys heard of this thing this thing called FICA? And I'm like, dude. Yeah. And I'm like, I grew up in Stockholm, Sweden. I know all about FICA.

So FICA is this coffee break that you take, but it's so much more than just sitting down and having coffee. It's bonding over the coffee. And it's a cultural thing, right? So that's the way you meet friends. Hey, let's go have a FICA and all the workplaces do it like once or twice a day. So it's just having pause. Yeah.

Pause in your week. Yeah. I'm like, why don't everybody do that? I don't know. What if you rebranded your coffee to be beardy bonding brew? Beardy bondy brew. I like this idea. This has been great.

Phenomenal. Thank you so much for being here today. And we're going to go get some food in Vegas. So let's go do that. David, why don't you ask your final question and then we'll get out of here. Last question. Where can people find out more about you? Well, I'm the most active on Instagram.

Maria loves real estate. Maria loves real estate. I did suggest that she changed her name to, what was it? It was the sound of music line, right? How do you solve a problem like Maria? That's what I thought your Instagram should have been. But it doesn't really fit with anything. Do you remember the one word you told me that when you think about me comes to mind?

No. Feisty. Feisty. Yeah, feisty. There you go. Maria the feisty. All right. So Instagram, we'll put links to that, of course, in the show notes at biggerpockets.com. So I show whatever number this is. I don't even know still to this day.

But yeah, that's all we got. Thank you. Thank you for having it. Thanks for being vulnerable and for sharing your wisdom and just for being awesome and feisty. You guys rock. You rock. David, you rock too. Thank you. Appreciate it, man. All right. This is David Green for abandoned Beardy Brew Coffee Turner, signing off. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets.

Real Estate Podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. On the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer, the show is produced by Ian K, copywriting is by Calicoe content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk. So use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford

to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. Bigger Pocket's LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential, or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.