BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 59: Mastering Multiple Real Estate Investing Niches and Getting Started with Paul Tschetter

Episode Date: February 27, 2014

Most of the guests we’ve had on the BiggerPockets Podcast have specialized in one niche of real estate. However, not all real estate investors focus on just one field. Today we want to shake things up a bit and introduce you to a relatively new investor who took 10 years to get his first deal… but has been on fire ever since engaging in numerous different real estate niches and crushing it in his business. Paul Tschetter, an investor from Washington State, shares his diversified real estate strategies and explains how we went from nothing to over a dozen deals in the past several years. From manufactured homes to vacation rentals, commercial, and more- there are an unbelievable amount of great actionable tips in today’s show. Definitely don’t miss a second of this motivation and insightful conversation! In This Show, We Cover: Getting started by working a job in real estate  Why Paul started investing with a free manufactured home How much Paul pays for handymen How to get infinite returns with your investments Using Hard Money to invest in real estate Working with partners to invest Attracting private money Working with multiple exit strategies to minimize risk How to invest when you live in a big area Paul’s vacation rental on “Useless Bay” Tips for getting your first deal The worst financial advice Paul has ever heard And a lot more!  Links from the Show How I Found, Analyzed, and Bought an Ugly Purple Rental Property by Brandon Turner Redfin.com VRBO Books Mentioned in the Show The ABCs of Real Estate by Ken McElroy Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill Tweetable Topics “As an investor, you need to be extremely disciplined.” (Tweet This!) “Different locations are good for different investment strategies.” (Tweet This!) “At some point – you have to just pull the trigger and just jump in and do it.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Paul Paul’s BiggerPockets Profile  Paul’s Website http://www.KingdomEG.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast, show 59. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the height, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dork and hosts at the Bigger Pockets podcast. here with my co-host,

Brandon Turner. That was nice. That was very nice. You like that? I do. It's like my Michael Buffer intro for you. I don't even know what that is. You make all these references.

I don't even know what you read. Let's get ready to, you know, that guy. Oh, that guy. Oh, that guy. Did you like my new mic? Yeah, I do like your new mic. I'm glad I got you one.

Yes. Thank you for my new mic. Well, now you can sound half as good as I do. Yeah. You know. something to strive for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's been a kind of a cool week this week.

We've had a bit of a milestone. I wanted to really quickly share, which is 160,000 members on the site. Yay! Yeah, that's kind of cool. Things are moving along. Lots of new folks coming to BP, learning, making moves, doing deals.

It's awesome, as we like to say. Awesome. Take a shot. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, take a shot, take a shot. So we got a cool show today. I think people are going to like this one. We've got a guy who's kind of a jack of all trades.

And before we get to that, I know Brandon wanted to share a quick tip. All right, this is my quick tip because today I learned a lesson. I don't know if it was a lesson, but whatever. Today, a house came up on the market in my town, my little town for like $39,000. And that's a really good deal in in this town particularly. And I looked at it and it was already gone by the time I saw it. Like, I mean, quickly gone, I think. And I looked at this house a year ago.

It was just a vacant house in my town. I drove by it. I walked around the outside. I popped my head through the window, looked around. I thought, I should contact the owners. And then I just kind of left it at that and I didn't do it. And now a year later, it goes on the market and sold right away. So my quick tip is if you're thinking about it.

doing something, don't just think about it, do it. If I would have done it a year ago, do it. I probably would have had it. So, yeah, motivation, go do it and stop thinking about it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's a good tip. Good tip. Thank you. Cool. Cool. All right. Well, we're going to get a lot of great tips in the show featuring Paul Cheddar. And Paul is a, as an investor up in the Washington area. And he's done, yeah, he's in the rural side of the country. This is our first guest from my neck of the woods.

Nice. Yeah, I don't think we've had a... Well, why don't you introduce him then? All right, I will. All right, Paul Cheddar is an investor from the Whidby Island area and he is a jack-of-all-trades. Like Josh said, he does a lot of different kinds of investing. So we're going to cover a ton of stuff today.

So good show. And yeah, with that, before I bring him in, a quick reminder, everyone, go to the show notes page at biggerpockets.com slash show 59. You can ask Paul questions about his adventures in real estate. For decades, real estate has been a cornerstone of the world's largest portfolios. But it's also historically been sort of complex, time consuming, and expensive. But imagine if real estate investing was suddenly easy, all the benefits of owning real,

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So with that, let us bring him in. All right, Paul. Welcome to the show, man. Good to have you. Hey, great to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, Paul, would you want to,

while we start by, what is your last name? How do I say your last name? Because I couldn't figure it out earlier. It's cheddar like the cheese, but it's spelled, obviously spelled kind of funny or messed up. All right, yeah, I had some trouble with that.

Why are you picking on the guy for his name, man? A little childish, I think. You know, that's not really right. it. That's how I roll. I don't want people, you know, looking at the title of the podcast, I mean like, Paul, so the number seven, the letter Q. Come up with an original, come up with an original way to pronounce it. I'll see if I've heard it before. Nice. There you go. There you go. I'll work on it. Well, cool. All right, man. So, Paul, tell us, you know, tell us how you got started. You're, you know, you've done a ton of

stuff in real estate. So how did it all kick off? Well, it's a long story, but the quick version is I've wanted to be a real estate investor pretty much since I graduated from college, which was the last decade or last century, I guess. So out of college, I figured I should probably get some education on real estate investing. And so one of my first jobs was I went and worked for a apartment broker

who sold, who specialized in selling apartment buildings in the Bay Area and just kind of worked as his grunt, right-hand man, you know, getting into the market and helping him with listings and marketing and all that stuff and worked for him for about a year and really learned a ton. Nice. How did you find that guy originally? Do you remember?

You know, to be honest, I think it was, I believe it was on Craigslist way back in the day. Oh, nice. Now, did you start doing that with the intent that someday you would become a real estate investor? Or was it, hey, I want to get in the business? let me kind of dance around and try different things. Good question. I didn't really know. I mean, I knew that I talked to some brokers and kind of knew that that, you know,

that's one way that people got started is, you know, just kind of becoming an expert in a niche and making, you know, making some good money doing that. And then ultimately kind of converting over to become an owner. So I was open to maybe the path was being a broker, but it was just mainly just to start my, kind of in my education. I thought why not get paid a little to learn, learn, kind of get the street, you know, learn how somebody's actually doing this. And rather than going to school, I'm more of a kind of hands-on guy. Nice, nice.

Okay, so you're working there. Did you get your license or were you just assisting another thing? I was just assisting. I kind of started that process, but pretty quick, I realized that that wasn't the right path for me. Okay. So, but that led, there's more to the story, but it led to through. one of his clients who was a buyer or an owner who bought apartment buildings. I actually moved back down to Los Angeles and got a job for this small apartment rehabber.

He basically bought small, you know, under 100 units, 50 to 100 unit apartment buildings. And they were just getting going down in Los Angeles area. And same thing, he kind of needed a right-hand man, grunt to do project management. helping with rehabs and kind of overseen vendors and helping a little bit out with acquisitions. And so that job with the broker kind of transitioned nicely to a job working for an actual owner and kind of seeing that side of the business. You know, that job right there, what you did, like there's no like title necessarily for it, right? Like you said grunt, projects manager.

There's like 50 different job positions. But that is the guy that like every successful real estate investor I know is always looking for. right. That is a position, even though it doesn't have a title. I mean, I wish I had that guy. And I don't know. So I think all those people that are listening to the show out there who want to get into real estate and don't know how to get started, be that guy and you'll never have a problem. Right. Absolutely. Yeah, the pay wasn't amazing, but it was just, it was like, you know, again, an MBA in a year. I mean, it was fantastic education. That's awesome. So you stayed with him for a year or were you there

for a longer time? I just, I was, both jobs about a year. And the next part of the story, just to keep it, keep a brief, was I kind of, I got married and I was kind of trying to figure out, you know, congratulations. Thank you. But I ended up starting a seemingly kind of random, but it did have a purpose and it was kind of targeted towards real estate was I actually thought, well, I need to kind of build

some capital myself and why you know I'm an entrepreneur why don't I start a service business that kind of targets some aspect of real estate you know the apartment industry or the commercial real estate industry let me build a little company stay connected to the real estate continue to learn continue my education but also build a you know start a little company and then build some capital so I can start buying you know I definitely wanted to still buy my own apartment buildings or commercial buildings or whatever. So I started a little payment processing business back in 2002, and we targeted apartment management companies,

helping them collect rent and application fees and everything related to collecting rent, online with credit cards, ACHs. And so we started this, myself and other gentleman, started a little service business with that kind of in mind. That's nice. Interesting. And so obviously you built it up to the point where you had the capital to kind of jump in and kick things off.

Yeah, 10 years later, I've been doing that since 2002. And just in the last few years, finally after many kind of starts and stops of trying to just pull the trigger on my first deal, you know, it's really not been to the last few years that I finally jumped in. So I still have the credit card business, but I'm pretty much full time now doing real estate investing. Oh, cool. So how did your first deal? You said it took, what, 10 years? How did that first deal come up?

Well, you know, I finally, you know, the real estate market had really obviously dropped off in, you know, 2007, 8. And I moved back up to Washington, which is where I grew up around 2009. And so when I got up here, I thought, yeah, I thought it's time. I was tired of making excuses and I just finally made the plunge. So we moved into just north of Seattle to a really neat place called Woodby Island, which is. Isn't that where, what was war games? Wasn't War Games filmed on Woodby Island with Matthew Broderick? Was that what it was called?

I have heard that. I don't, I've not been able to verify that, but I have actually heard that. I feel like that's what it was called. I think you're right. So, yeah, we just started, you know, finally bought my first, made my first transaction here a few years ago, and I guess I could tell you a little bit about that. Yeah, yeah.

It's called Goose Island, by the way, as I look it up on Google here. So I was incorrect. Apologies. Well, I don't even know what you're talking about. Oh, Wargames? Have you never seen War Games? No, I don't even. know what that is.

Aldi. What do you, like, 12? Matthew Roderck's only movie I've seen is, like, Godzilla and Ferris Bueller's day off. Paul, have you seen board games? Oh, yeah. That's an old. That's an oldie. That's a classic, man.

It's a classic. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on, Brandon, get with it. All right, I'll check it out. All right. So, first deal, what was it like, or what did you do? So, I live, Wibon is a very rural part of the country.

Emphasis on rural. I'm rural. So, you know, we just have a lot of, it's kind of a, there's a lot of second homes and a lot of real high. It's kind of a, not a resort area, but, you know, people from Seattle own homes up here. So it's kind of a retreat, second home type market. So the kind of more entry level traditional long-term rentals, you know, are just real basic three-bedroom, two-bath type houses. So one of my ideas to jump in was to actually buy manufactured homes. And I own a few of those now.

And so I found what I actually did on my first deal is I found a lot that previously had a home on it that had been demolished because it was actually a meth house. Oh, nice. And so I was able to pick up a lot from the bank for a mere $6,000. Wow. And that was my first, you know, transaction. And I had also started putting out some feelers to find a, you know, a nice late model manufactured home to actually move on to the lot and improve it and, you know, either rent it out or sell it.

So that was, that was the first, you know, transaction that I did up here. Hey, Paul. So was that buying the property, was the house already raised at that point? Or was it still standing? No, I literally bought it like a week after they had gone through the full form. I don't know if you guys are familiar with the process, but it's pretty extensive and expensive. And the health department had just signed off on, you know, the lot was basically good as new. The bank had dealt with all the radiation, the abatement, yep, to the tune of $50,000 to knock the house down.

So, no, I didn't have to deal with any of that. Wow, wow. So clean and clear, six grand, you got this beautiful lot. You go find a manufactured home to put on it. And you had not dealt with any of these types of properties before, had you, the mobile? No, no. I mean, it was pretty new. Yeah, I hadn't done that. I just had kind of had the idea and had seen that they'd make, you know, for this area, they're decent rentals and the, you know, just the ratios kind of work up here. So I had kind of heard of people that would move up. up here, buy five acres and put a mobile home on it. And then down the road, they'd finally build their dream house and they'd need to deal with the mobile home. And so that's kind of the type of thing I was looking for was somebody that had a 5, 10-year-old mobile home. And I could pick it up for cheap and move it, you know, move it to one of my properties as a rental. And that's not exactly what happened, but I ended up finding a nice mobile about a year and a half later. and we actually just we just finished that you know completed that deal about three or four months ago

well let's talk numbers on that if we could um you said you bought the lot for six thousand what did the what did the home cost to buy and move it so the the home was free 99 didn't have to actually pay for it the guy you know what it cost him five six thousand dollars to get rid of it and it was in you know it was it was a 1980s three bedroom two bath needed some freshening up but it wasn't you know it wasn't

you know it was worth my time and effort so so we picked that up I actually had secured a private loan from a local investor to do the project on top of that so

I ended up spending about $50,000 total to you know move it place it, fix it up put in a new septic system so it was pretty involved but you know now we've got a a rental you're in it for about 50, 55,000 and it rents for 1100.

Okay. So it's pretty much the 2% rule and you got that on a, you know, on Wouldby Island, which is an expensive area generally. Right. So that's cool. It's hard to find, yeah, it's hard to find even just a real basic three-bedroom home here for under 200. I mean, that's kind of the, yeah.

Wow. So let me ask you. I mean, so this was your first deal. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So you've got this lot. You've paid $6,000 and it took a good year and a half before anything could happen.

Were you, did you do anything with the property in the meantime? Or was it, I mean, $6,000, it wasn't super expensive. So it wasn't really draining a hole in your pocket. But, you know, anything in the meanwhile? No, I mean, I just, I knew it would probably take some time if I wanted to, you know, get what I was looking for. I mean, I could have gone out and bought what I needed for 30 or $40,000, probably, but I knew that I needed to be patient. So I just pretty much sat there, you know,

moated a couple times and just waited. In the meantime, I was doing other transactions. I wasn't waiting, you know, for that. Okay. Here's my question. So, you know, I hear mobile home, as somebody who's never dealt with them, I think, oh, it's, you know, one of these things on wheels.

You know, you can move them around, do whatever you want. Why the heck does it cost 50 grand to do? obviously you talk about the septic system but there's more than one class of mobile homes correct i mean there's movable and non-movable absolutely yeah i mean there's there's a huge range um this is a you know a double wide it's it's not on wheels they they do to move them they actually split it in two pieces and and put axles underneath it it's on a metal frame but you know from the outside it really looks like a just a very basic uh traditional stick built home we we put them on

kind of a concrete slab and put concrete around the base as opposed to you know just the grown up wood or you know plastic so it actually looks like a real house

from the outside but yeah there's there's triple wides there's double wides and there's single wides and the double wides are really what I'm interested in just because they're you know for the money and for the

you know they feel similar to a stick built home now now take take the case of the property you've got. So you've got this $5,500 into it. You know, you're making pretty good rental. Have you considered the other side of just owning a home at a park?

Is there anything really different about that than what you're doing here? Well, you know, I had looked into that too, and that's, you know, a lot of guys do that. The nice thing about this is if you buy, If you do one of these, and it's after, I believe it's 1978 or 1976. I can't remember the cutoff. But the owner-occupied buyers can actually get financing for this type of, you know, when you take the mobile, move it on to a piece of property and attach it to the property, you can get conventional financing.

So I like that just because it gives me, you know, I'm holding it as a rental right now, but down the road I have an exit strategy and this type of home you know I can sell it easily for 100 to 125 in this market nice nice now a typical mobile home

it sounds like you can't get conventional is it's similar to like a car financing isn't it? You know I'm again the when you're in a park there's different financing from what I understand and then again I'm not an expert in that

arena but all I know is when you know when you do attach it to you remove the title because the mobile from the factory has a title and when you remove that and actually affix it to a piece of property that's owned it becomes like real real property right on hey can you can you share any mistakes you may have made or things you regret if you were to go back and do it again you'd do differently on that first deal um that's a good good question. You know, I probably spent a little too much money on the rehab. I mean, I needed some updating and I probably went a little further than I needed to. I, it went pretty smooth. And the reason is I actually, in the midst of buying that property and actually getting this

mobile home for that property, I had actually purchased another property and moved one of these already. So this was actually, it was my first piece of property I bought, but it was the second mobile home that I'd moved. So it actually went pretty smoothly. I had used the mover before. I had used a lot of the same vendors, you know, the concrete guy and the, you know, the remodels and contractors and all that. So you didn't do the labor yourself inside to fix it up? I don't, yeah, I don't do any of the work myself. I've got some fantastic local handymen and contractors and laborers and got a really good team. Cool. And that's the question we ask a lot of people, but do you have any tips on finding good contractors?

You know, I like, since I'm just kind of a small guy, I like just through networking and Craigslist. I mean, I like working with just the small one-man kind of handyman type guys that, you know, may or may not be licensed. I've just been really, maybe I've just been really lucky, but I, It's really been through networking and talking to local property management companies that I've found the guys that I like to work with. Okay. And here's kind of a specific question. And I've never asked this on the show before, but I'm curious. What do you pay? Like let's say you've got some sheetrock that got damaged from whatever, you know, a water leak that happened years ago. What do you pay a typical contractor to go fix that up? I mean, per hour, are you 15, 50, 100 an hour? or like where are you at up there?

It kind of ranges from 15 to 30. I mean, that's a huge range. But, you know, I've got more labor guys and then I've got more skilled carpenters. So, you know, it's really been that range. 15 to 30 is what I pay. Yeah, I think I want to start asking that question more often because.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I'm always curious. Like, I pay generally like 20 to 25 in my areas about kind of the going rate for somebody who's decent and licensed and bonded probably, can do this stuff. But yeah, okay, cool. Well, okay, let's let's go back to your story. You did that first deal after that and that first deal kind of spanned several deals. So let's talk about your second and third kind of where did you go next after you bought that land? Well, I mean, really about the

same time, I had two other properties in contracts. So I was, I kind of came out of the gate swinging. I had, you know, so there was just a lot of deals at the time and I had a, you know, kind of the resource and the financing to do the, you know, a couple deals. And so, you know, roughly the same time as closing on that lot, I bought a, just a kind of conventional three-bedroom two-bath stick-built house in a similar area. And then I, you know, like a month later also closed on an older three-bedroom two-bath kind of farm house. that is also kind of a traditional rental. Okay.

And do you mind me asking how much you paid for those? Yeah. So the second transaction was a three-bed or two-bath, 2,000 square foot, and I paid $130 for that. Okay. And that one, we fixed it up, you know, needed, I think it put about $12,000 or $13,000 into it, and that one rented out for $1,300. Okay.

And the, so it's not a, you know, not a home run, not a screaming deal, but I was able to, about six months after we did that, refinance it and pull most of the money that we had put down. We had a conventional loan on that and pulled most of the money out and it's still cash flows, you know, a couple hundred bucks a month. Hey, let's actually talk on that a little bit because I like that strategy. You said, I mean, for those people who are listening who don't know what that all means, can you kind of go through that a little more, I don't know, detailed on. refinancing it out?

Yeah, so we, this one actually I bought with a partner and we, we, you know, had to put 20% down. We had a traditional loan with a conventional bank and, you know, US bank. And so we had to put, you know, rough, I don't know the exact math, but, you know, roughly, you know, $30,000 down, $35,000 down. And then we put about, like I said, $12,000,000 of our own money into it to fix it up. And so we got it rented and we kind of let it, you know, let it do its thing for six or eight months. And then we went back to the bank, got it reappraised. And I knew going into it that we'd potentially be able to do this because when we bought it for 130, it actually praised for 185. Oh, nice.

So we kind of had that data going into it. So we got it refinanced or we got it reappraised and it reappraised at 200. after we fixed it up and had it rented out in the market, I think it started to improve a little bit. And so, you know, if it appraises for 200, you can do a, you know, 70 to 80% loan to value on the property. And so in this case, we were able to put a $150,000 mortgage new loan to pay off the original loan on that property.

And, you know, at that point, you know, we, you know, it all, alone and there was extra left over so we basically paid ourselves you know took took our money back out and so now we've got you know basically no money into this deal and you know it's not an incredible return but you know the market's improving and we're cash flowing a little bit and we have none of our own money in the deal now so yeah so pretty much infinite returns at this point you're just doing yeah profit that's cool yeah absolutely i'm working on kind of the same thing right now that I wrote a post a while back about the ugly purple triplex that I bought, and it was, we paid 70 for it. It appraised 90 when we bought it. And the appraiser had told me, you know, this is worth a lot more than what I can appraise it for.

But there's just no comps right now. So that's what I'm hoping to do exactly the same thing. I'm hoping I can get it to praise for, you know, 120, 130 and go out and get a 70% refinance and pull all of my cash and everything back out along with my partner. So it's the exact same story. It's one of my favorite strategy. there is for investing with no money. Right. Or at least getting your money back. Right. Cool.

So you mentioned partner. You worked with a partner on this. Can we talk on that a little bit? Yeah. I definitely am a fan of partners. I've done deals on my own. I've used different partners. One of my first partners, like I've heard from a lot of people is a relative or friend or relative.

and so we just, you know, we had an arrangement where, you know, we were both brought some money at the table. I was doing most of the work and, you know, it's worked out great. We've bought, like I said, I bought different properties with different people. Well, can we cover the way that you do that? Because say you've got a partner, you guys both bring money to the picture and you're doing all the work. You know, the way I see it, it's.

He's not bringing everything, so you're definitely not going 50-50. Are you doing like 60-40 splits or how are you working that out? Well, every, every, I mean, I don't have one standard way of doing it, but with this first partner, it's a 50-50 partnership. I put a little money in just because I really didn't have a track record at that point. Even though it was a family member, I, he felt like I needed to put a little bit of money into the deal. So, but since then, as I've developed a track record, it's, you know, your deal structures can definitely change.

I mean, you have more leverage. Now I've, you know, the recent partnerships I have, I put, you know, little to no money in. And my partners usually put most of the money up. And, you know, again, I do the work and kind of have developed the track record to manage the asset. So. Yeah. And you say track record.

And I think it's something that we hear over and over and over again on the podcast. And, you know, I like to emphasize. because I think it's super important for the newer investors who say, well, you know, I've, I don't have a lot of money. I don't know what I can do here. You know, how do I proceed? And, and, you know, ultimately, yeah, maybe you turn to a family member. I mean, we've covered a million ways to start out in finance. But, you know, as you proceed forward, you build a track record for yourself. By being successful and demonstrating that you can do these deals, you're going to build trust in those people who are going to potentially lend you money or work with you, partner with you.

And over time, essentially, it just becomes easier and easier to do deals with less of your own capital. Absolutely. I had, this is so funny, literally last week, I was at one of my jobs. And one of my contractors actually, he heard me on the phone talking to one of my investor partners. And this contractor started, you kind of pull me aside and said, hey, you know, what's the minimum? to get into this thing. I mean, so it's amazing when you start, you know, doing stuff. I mean, that people start finding you.

And, you know, again, this is a guy that works for me all the time. And he was interested in parking some money in real estate. So he, you know, we had a conversation about that. So, and how did that particular person find you? Was it, you know, you just tell everybody, which, which is something that I think people should do? Or was it just kind of word of mouth? you mean the initial partner or no no the one you were you had oh it was i mean literally it's a guy that

works for me i mean a contractor that oh okay he has some extra money and just you know he knows what i'm doing and kind of hears me talking to my partners and you know he that's cool just ask you know how do i how do i jump into this that's that's awesome that's awesome but it's all but it's all no website there's no it's all networking my experiences it's it's just networking and and just doing what do and, you know, at first you kind of are seeking people out, but, but, you know, after a little bit that more people start asking you what you're doing and, you know, everybody, you develop a niche and a skill set that not everybody has. Yeah. Yeah. So have you taken any, have you done hard money loans or other, are there types of private money other than partnerships? So I've done

seller financing. I did that, the first manufactured home deal I told you about that was just, a pure, it was actually what some people call a soft money loan, where one challenge I have with the mobile homes is I can't, I can't as an investor currently get conventional financing. That's one of the limitations to that strategy, at least currently. And so that was a gentleman who lent me private, his own private money, but gave me a reasonable return. It's like I've got a 10-year loan at, I believe it's five, percent. So I've done that. And then I just did my first, I've got a project I'm working on now where I did my first hard money loan. Okay. Gotcha. Can we talk about that a little bit?

How did that, how did they go for you? Well, we'll see. We'll see. Maybe I can ask more specifically, what kind of rates in terms did you get for that? Well, and before we even go there, why, why, why did you decide to do that versus take on another partner? Yeah. So this one, I've wanted to just try it out as I'm still I'm still pretty new at this I mean I'm definitely I've gotten some reps in the last few years but I you know I just have wanted to

for the right deal you know wanted to try doing a hard money loan because it's you know obviously there's a bunch of benefits and there's a bunch of downsides to it but it was a deal where I just made a really good buy you know it's a property that you know it's probably

I bought it for 60% of what it's probably worth as is and then there's even more upside once it's fixed up and so there was enough of a margin there

where I felt comfortable to use hard money so I'm in the midst of the project we're probably two weeks from finishing it and then at that point I'm going to try to actually

refinance it and put a conventional loan on it and if for some reason the ratios don't work or doesn't appraise for enough I've got some sellers, you know, it's a property that can very easily sell. So I've kind of got that as a backup. Nice. And that's really important. I don't know. Like, we don't need to necessarily dive into it real deeply. But the fact that you have multiple exit strategies for this potential flip or potential rental, it's perfect. That's cool. I like having at least two, if not three exits. Yeah.

I mean, I'm pretty conservative, but I, you know, I really try to have, I'm trying to build a portfolio rentals, but it's nice to know that, you know, and if you need to sell it, you can sell it, not be underwater. Okay, Paul, so here's the deal. So you've got this property. Your plan with this thing is to refi it and get conventional financing. What would be the alternative? So, you know, you said you had ulterior exit plans.

What were the ones that you had in mind here? So the second exit would be to just to sell the house, just to sell it. I've even got people that have contacted me, just knowing the house in the area that I want to buy it all right. You know, I see that somebody's remodeling it and it's in a very desirable area. And so the backup exit is just to sell it and sell it for a profit.

Nice. Okay, cool. Okay. Sounds good. Hey, one more question on this particular one. You mentioned that this was a 60% deal. You know, that's kind of tough to come by a property where 60%,

How did you come across this one? So it's kind of a glitch in the matrix, so to speak. I mean, it's just a totally random thing. It's a property that I had had my eye on. The seller had tried to sell it maybe a year and a half ago, and it was just in my database, and I've been watching it. And it was kind of a weird thing. It was one of these, that was a reverse mortgage foreclosure.

And I'm not really, to be honest, familiar with how that all works, but basically, you know, the person passed away and the bank just kind of, I guess, sells it for kind of what's left on the mortgage or what, you know, what they're owed. You know, to be honest, I don't really understand how all that works, but it just came on the market. It wasn't an inside deal or anything. It was a, you know, it came out on the MLS and we wrote an offer the first day. And they actually had multiple offers and people even had a written, you know, higher priced offers, but just because of my track record and the guy that I use, the broker that I used, we were able to convince the seller to go with our offer because it was stronger.

That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, you know, you mentioned your database. You know, you've got this database of properties that you watch. You know, what, you know, what kind of criteria are you using for these properties? Is it absentee landlords? Is it, you know, foreclosures? And then, you know, I'm just curious to kind of talk a little bit about, you know, how do you manage it? Because, you know, this property came on the MLS. Did you have it, you know, tagged if this thing comes back on, you know, to let us know? Or how do you manage all that? So you have to understand I live in a very small town.

So when a, I mean, it sounds funny, but literally when something comes on the market, I mean, I do, I use, one thing that I use is redfin and they have a pretty good alert thing. So I've got my criteria in there and you know, you can set up a user and they've got settings. And when, I mean, pretty much any property that comes on the market in Island County, which is our county, I, you know, know, know, the day that, you know, within hours of it coming on the market. Gotcha. So that's, that's really for this immediate market. That's, I mean, that's kind of all it takes. I do have a, you know, like a CRM system where I do kind of manage data on some of the properties that I'm managing.

but really for my local market here it's just kind of an alert type of thing where you know I get an email when a property if it's my criteria hits the MLS and then I've you know

when I've got for if there's foreclosures or you know other deals that come across my plate that aren't on the MLS you know I've got this CRM system that I kind of manage those leads nice so John Cougar Mellicamp was singing about you too huh

what I don't get these references. I did actually, I'll be honest, I missed that one. Small town. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know. I don't even know.

I don't even know. You have to be born in maybe the early 80s or late 70s to get that or any time before, Brandon. Apparently. Josh, can we get back to real estate? Listen. My job here is to distract. Yeah. And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I do want to point out something interesting. I mean, a lot of people who live in big cities or big areas, unlike the rural areas that Paul and I live in, they might say, well, that's easy when you live in a small area to know all the properties that come up on the market. Yeah, must be nice. Yeah, I mean, I know every, guys. Like, I know all the properties in my town when they come up because there's only a few, right? Brennan, your town is like a block. You know, you could throw a rock and hit the other side of town.

So it's like, you know, it's not a big deal. when you live in a big deal. No, so here's my point though. Is everybody, I mean, when you're starting out especially, that's just define an area of the same size, right? Like if my area is a mile by a mile, so not a block, but it's like a mile by a mile, go pick your farm area and make it a mile by a mile.

And you've got the same number of properties. And ignore everything else. Pretend everything else doesn't exist. That's your area. That's where you set up your alerts. That's what you set up everything. You become the king of that area. And, you know, branch out once you,

get some experience. That's a great tip, Brandon. Thank you. That is, Brandon, that actually really speaks to me because I think that's why it took me 10 years to get to starting is,

it is so overwhelming when you live in a, you know, wherever, Seattle or Denver. I mean, there's so many strategies and so many types of properties and so many ways to buy them. And,

you know, I was just overwhelmed. And so when I moved to, I think that might have been part of the, the thing that helped me get the edges, you know, it is a lot smaller area and a lot slimmer pickings. So while we're talking about farming here, and for those people who are unfamiliar with the term, I'm not making fun of you rural guys there.

Okay. No, I mean, so, yeah, rural. You know, farming is basically kind of the process of working an area. So what would somebody do to kind of set up a farm in an area that is a bigger situation? You know, how would you kind of determine your criteria for what's the best one mile by one mile plot that you should pick and that you should work on? Do you have any ideas, any tips on that? Well, I don't know that I guess what I'd say is, you know, just pick a couple zip codes, you know, maybe even start with one zip code or a couple zip codes and just really try to be disciplined at becoming an expert in that area. I mean, I think that's even, you know, I hear realtors that when they start doing their business, that that's kind of how they start is they pick an area.

So as an investor, you just have to be very disciplined because, you know, you get outside that area and there's just so there's just too many deals and it's kind of overwhelming. So I guess that's what I'd recommend. I could add to that. Like, I mean, off the top of my head, I think different areas are obviously good for different strategies. Like my area is not great for flipping. I mean, I've done it, but it's not real great. for it. Other areas are amazing for flipping, but they're not good for rentals because you can't get

the cash flow. So I think you've got to pick an area that fits whatever strategy you want to do. And I think a real estate agent, like a good agent who understands the investor mindset can help with that quite a bit, just asking them, you know, I'm looking for 1% or 1.5% or 2% deals. Where can I get those in this area? And of course, you want to talk to a real estate agent who actually knows what a 1% deal is. I mean, because those might be hard to find too, by the way. Yep. And that's true. And if you can't find one, you know, jump on bigger pockets forums. there's people probably from every

zip code in America on there so find somebody who's in your area you can get advice from I mean like if somebody asks me where's a good place to invest in western Washington I could probably tell them within a 500 mile range of where I'm at right now what's generally good and what's generally bad

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Head to costsegregationguise.com slash BP to get a free proposal and see your potential tax savings. Cool. All right. Let's go back to your story. We kind of went off on a little tangent there, but I think it's important. Vacation rentals. We talked about that on a podcast a couple weeks ago with Matt Landau, and I hear you have, is it a vacation rental or some vacation rentals? I have a vacation rental that I purchased in the midst of all this other stuff with a couple partners, and it's not something that I wanted to intend, you know,

it's not something I wanted to dive into as personally. say it was just an it's a property that I've been watching for quite some time and it was an incredible buy and an opportunity and we just we kind of I don't want to say stumbled into it but you know I ended up being able to buy this property and it's a it's a waterfront property on wibby island and it's it's just an amazing location so um it's yeah we it was quite a process to get get that thing going it's interesting that it just kind of fell on your lap like you know the the other day Brandon was calling me and he's like, you know, I don't know how it happened, but somehow I just like accidentally ended up with another property. It just kind of fell in my lap.

Well, when you're when you're busy, you know, you're networking and you're in the world, I mean, it happens, right? That does. It does. It's just funny. Funny to hear. So you've got this vacation rental on Woodby Island that met some of your criteria. And you said you've got a couple of partners, yeah? Yeah. So, yeah. it's a long story. And this one did not fall in my lap. It took three years to buy this property. So I guess falling in my lap isn't probably the right way to... That would be more a case of patience, extreme patience.

Some perseverance and patience, yes. But it's such a long story. But the quick version is I bought this one with actually my dad and another gentleman who I met through a mutual hobby, which is kiteboarding. We have a community of people up here on Whiby Island that... kiteboard, which is kind of like wind surfing. And this guy is a kiteboarder from Seattle, and we were having some trouble. Obviously, it took us three years getting this deal done. And so I kind of ran it by him. And again, it's a long story. But he brought some real expertise to, you know, helping us actually close on the transaction and fix it up.

And it was a huge part of helping us get the financing for it. Nice. All right. So can you run the numbers? So this one, it's such a unique property. We ended up buying this property. It's 200 feet of waterfront right on useless bay on Whiby Island, which is kind of the prime. It's actually called useless bay.

It's called useless bay. It's not a joke. Yeah, it's pretty cool. And it's useless because it's extremely shallow. Okay. So you couldn't get a ship in there back in the day. But we ended up buying this property for, it foreclosed, the guide alone, for like $6.50 and it finally foreclosed and we bought it for 305 and we put we put a hundred and

15 to 20 into it. So we just got the property reappraised and it came back at 800,000. Wow. So it was you know so too bad I can't find more of those deals. Yeah yeah for sure. So so what is it what does that rent out for? Yeah you got this for you're you're in it for now what I'm I've lost you since we've had six takes on trying to get this right here. So it's a, you know, it's a lot different than a traditional rental because it's rented by the week or the month. But we currently run it out. I mean, we just finished our first year.

I mean, it came online March of 2013. So we just finished or we're just finishing our first year. And we run it out for in the high season, about 300. bucks a night and in the offseason about two to two twenty five a night so i think in the first year we did roughly you know i don't have the numbers in front of me but it you know it did way better than expected we were kind of going to be half full last summer and it was it was literally booked all summer i mean it's just an amazing uh amazing it turned out great nice are you are you guys managing yourself then or do you have somebody taking care of it and that's actually applies to

all your properties how are you doing everything yeah so i um i i i i i i i i I don't manage most, all my conventional stuff or traditional 12-month rentals. I do not manage. I use a local management company. I strongly dislike dealing with that part of the business. So I just, you know, build it into my budget and rely on a professional. And we have a great working relationship. For the vacation, now, just because it's so different and new and I hadn't done it before.

And I live five minutes from the house. we are currently managing it ourselves. And we've had a huge success utilizing not to plug VRBO, but they have a great system for marketing and for even managing the rental, the calendar, and all that. So it's been pretty painless. Nice. Hey, really quick.

So you said you're fairly booked throughout the high season. What kind of vacancy rates are you seeing otherwise? Well, it's still pretty early to kind of. see huge patterns, but we've done, again, better than projected this winter even. I mean, we definitely have weekends that aren't booked, but most weekends even in the off season are booked. So we've, you know, I mean, literally the summer, it's booked every day of the summer. And then, you know, in the, you know, November through March, you know, we try to get every weekend, but it's, you know, occasionally we'll have a weekend where it's not booked. And how do you get somebody in there

to clean it after each person? Do you do that? as well or do you hire that? I've got a team of three or four cleaning people that you know kind of one or two that are the consistent and when they can't do it I've got being again living here locally

it's pretty easy to find those pretty reliable people to do that. Cool, cool, that's very cool. All right, well why don't we I guess move on, start wrapping this up but a couple more questions I have for you before we go. I wanted to make sure I covered us

do you have any tips for people getting started because you went 10 years you said before you kind of did it so what what tips do you have for people listening that are struggling to get started um you know everyone just has such a different road and path in their their you know career and personal life it's it's hard to say you know one thing but you know i think i guess the only thing i can say is just you got to just at some point pull the trigger i mean i think we've heard this a million times on on the bigger pockets podcast that, you know, you can research, you can read books, you can, you know, you can do that for the rest of your life. But, you know, there's a point in time where you just have to do it.

You got to do your first deal. If you succeed or fail, you know, it kind of doesn't matter. You just got to start somewhere. So I think, you know, that's probably the best thing I could say. Cool. That's great. That's great. All right. So before we run to the fire round, I do want to cover something that we have in our notes about yours. You've also done, commercial deals, right? Yeah, I, my island's very small. So at some point, you know, I had to start looking beyond the island. It's, it's super convenient for the, you know, the traditional rentals, but I'm, you know, I started wanting to branch out. So I've, in the last year, bought a couple of small warehouse properties that we've been able to sign, you know, longer term

triple net type leases where, you know, there's not as much management or little to no management required. And so the fact that it's off the island is not as big of a deal since it doesn't, once it's acquired and at least it's easier to manage. So what got you to transition from, well, you said you're running out of property because you called it your island. Presumably you own everything on the island. Yes. I bought everything. Right. Okay. So you've owned all, you own all the residential property. you decided, hey, I'm going to go spread my wings a little bit and decided on warehouses. Yeah, it's kind of random.

I mean, again, it's kind of a long story, but it just, there were a couple opportunities that came across, fell into my lap, came across my desk. And again, just being seen an opportunity to get some tenants on long-term leases, you know, and just there's nothing fancy. They're just small, small warehouse type properties. I just thought I'd try it. And it's still, you know, very new. and I mean, less than a year.

Yeah. So I'm not, not, don't claim to be the expert in commercial property, but we're just kind of spreading the wings a little bit and trying some other stuff. So, and just really, really quick, because I'm, I'm fascinated. You know, I, I, I think most people who start in residential kind of transition to apartment buildings, the, the transition to a warehouse, you know, did you have to do a lot of research or is it, is it fairly similar to a residential lease or? or, you know, fill us in a little bit on that whole process of transitioning.

Well, I think in my kind of ten years of preparation, I ultimately wanted to own apartment buildings. And I think, you know, I still, it's still in my radar. The challenges in my market up here in Washington, it's extremely competitive, even if I find small apartment buildings right now. So I had years ago looked into more commercial-type properties and, you know, just as I was studying everything I could and looking at triple net leases and talking to brokers that did that. Even back when I was working for the apartment broker, there were guys in the office that did more commercial property. So I knew a little bit about it. But it was just kind of the opportunity presented itself.

And it was kind of looking for it. I was looking beyond my immediate market and just was able to find some really good buys. and they were relatively easy to rent. So again, it's not something that I'm trying to build a huge portfolio of warehouses. It's just something I wanted to dabble in and see how it went. I'm still a relatively new investor and just trying a few different things out. Hey, Paul, were you the one who contacted me a few months ago about a property out here in my neck of the woods? That was me.

Okay, did you end up buying that? So it's another long story, but I've got it tied up. I've not bought it. It's in contract, but there was a issue with the previous owner and an eviction process. And so it's in contract, but it's in kind of a holding pattern. Okay. And I bring that up, not just to, you know, because I thought that was you, but what I thought was cool about that was, like, you didn't necessarily know my area very well, but you found a property that was good. So you went on bigger pockets, found somebody in that area, reached out to me.

and I'm not interested in that property. I don't even know anything about warehouses or whatever. Right. So, like, I just think, I want to recommend that people do that more often. Like, if you don't know an area, just find somebody who's active on bigger pockets who does know the area and go ask them for their opinion. I don't know if I helped you at all, but, you know. No, absolutely. No, definitely.

I mean, there's so many different angles and aspects when you're doing your due diligence. And just, I mean, it is a little thing, but it's a huge deal just to, you know, I just had a couple of questions about the area and, you know, in a couple emails. a quick phone call, you were able to kind of put my mind at ease about a couple things. So, yeah, it's huge. I mean, the networking is awesome. Cool. Good deal. All right.

Well, why don't we move on to... It's time for the fire round. Wow. He just cut you off. Yeah, he's been doing that lately. All right, the fire round. These questions all come from the Bigger Pocket's forums. And we are going to fire them at you and you can fire them back if you'd like.

Number one. what is the worst financial advice you've ever received to put money in the bank and get a 2% return and that that's safe a safe investment good good that's terrible advice I mean that's a good good worth advice story all right in other words what he's trying to say is thank you for the very good advice that you shared yes yes thank you just all right so what do you say best way to find comps for properties are? You know, there's obviously tons of real estate websites and you can kind of do it yourself. I try to rely on, you know, the experts in the market.

So, you know, whatever the market is, you know, finding the real estate agents I typically will utilize as well as, you know, I kind of poke around on the websites too, but I like to rely on people that know more than I do. So a lot of times I'll use agents. Okay. Cool. Okay, Paul. So you partner with your, I think you said your dad and some other family folks.

The question I've got is, should I partner with my adult children when investing in real estate? Do you think it's a good idea, bad idea? I think it can be both. I mean, the key, I believe, is just like in any business decision. You've got to treat it as a business also and you got to, you know, you got to get stuff in writing and you've got to have boundaries. So as painful as it might be on the front end to work that stuff out, you've got to write stuff down and what's expected of everyone involved. And it's just a key. Because stuff, you know, when stuff's going well, it doesn't matter.

But, you know, stuff doesn't always go well. And whether it's family or just a business partner, you've got to have everything in writing and your, you know, your partnership agreements formalized. and so I would just strongly recommend that it can be a great, great thing, but you just got to be very disciplined. That's great advice, Paul. Yeah, good advice. All right, final question on the fire round. My property manager is terrible at communicating with me. How do I get them to communicate better?

I've got two answers. One is I'd, if it's too much of headache, I'd just find another property manager. It would be the first. Good advice. I agree. in my market that's a little hard to do because there's only a couple options but in a big city you know you just you find a better one but the thing that I've been I've got a great manager and one thing when we've got a lot more going on what I've discipline that I've implemented is just having a weekly meeting so you just have a standing you know Monday at 10 o'clock you just whether it's a five minute phone call or an hour phone call you just you get it on the calendar and you kind of force the communication to happen once. at least once a week. That's a cool idea.

I heard that. So that's great. It's a good thing Brandon's not your property manager. He doesn't like attending meetings. I hate meetings. I hate meetings. They do, but whatever. No, I think it's great advice.

I think that's a good way to kind of train them. And hopefully they're willing to work with you along those lines and do that. Obviously, you have the right to say, you know what? If you don't, I'm out of here. Right. Yep. So good stuff. Good stuff.

Well, let us move it over to the Famous Four. All right, the Famous Four. Again, these are the questions we ask everyone. I know Paul, you listen to the podcast, so you know what's coming. Number one, what is your favorite real estate book? I've been trying for days to come up with an original answer, but I must say that Mr. McElroy's ABC's real estate investing.

I'm sorry. That's a good one. Don't be sorry. That hasn't been said too often. I mean, and you know what, he was, he was a good guest on the show. So, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm not displeased by that. All right. What, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what,

I really like, um, I've got a bunch of favorites, but I like Pauline Hill and think can grow rich. Okay, that's a good book. Good, yeah, good choice, good choice. All right. I'll take your question. I usually ask Josh. Oh, I'll ask my question.

I'm fine. I mean, I already know his hobbies. The guy, the guys was a wakeboarder, kiteboarder. I mean, he has no respect for windsurfing, the true art on the water. But, you know, what do you do for fun? Oh, I try to, yeah, I like being in the water. You know, we have a lot of, you know, fishing, kiteboarding, play a little golf. You know, try to try to cut the water?

In the water? Yeah, water golf. It's a new sport. It's pretty sweet. Sorry, I couldn't help it. All right, cool, cool. And final question from me is, what do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from those who fail?

I would just say perseverance. I mean, you know, you just, you got to, you know, there's ups and downs like anything, and you just got to push through it. It's not easy. Sometimes it feels easy. Sometimes it feels really hard, but you just, I think perseverance is just the big thing. You just got to stick with it. good stuff

good stuff all right paul we definitely appreciate all of your time and your energy here and putting up with me

so before we let you go where can people find out more about you I'm on bigger pockets quite a bit or you can find me on my website which is kingdom

eg.com that's e as an Edward G is in golf so the site stands the side stands for Kingdom Edward golf? Kingdom.

What is this site about? Kingdom Equity Group is one of my companies. Okay, gotcha. Not water golf. Darn it. Not water golf. Just straight and straight golf. Right on.

All right, Paul. Well, listen, man. Thanks a lot, man. We definitely appreciate it. It's great having you on the show. And we'll see you back around on the forums. And, of course, on the show notes at biggerpockets.com. Slashio-59.

Sounds good. Thanks, guys. I really appreciate it. All right. Thank you. All right, everybody. That was Paul. Cheddar. You can check them out on our show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 59. Make sure to hit

them up with any questions you've got. Hopefully you guys are enjoying these conversations that we're bringing to you from the Bigger Pockets podcast. Our goal here is to get as much information as we can from our cohorts on the show and to just really chat about things of interest to us and hopefully get to you as well. We do appreciate you listening. As always, definitely check us out at biggerpockets.com. If you're not already interacting, engaging, participating, I encourage you to do so. And beyond that, try something new today.

So if you're on Bigger Pockets all the time and you're posting in the forums but never have on the blog, never left a comment for the author of an article who spends a lot of time bringing you really great content, leave them a piece of feedback. vice versa. If you're always on the blog, jump on the forums, and interact, help somebody out, do something different on the site today and see what you can do and see who you'll meet. Otherwise, that's pretty much what we got for you. I'm Josh Dorkin. Signing off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio.

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