BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 697: BiggerNews December: 3 Coast-to-Coast Markets We’d Invest in Next Year

Episode Date: December 6, 2022

Each real estate market has its own type of flavor. Some are short-term rental markets, others are affordable cash-flowing long-term rental markets, and many are in between, capitalizing on strong appreciation with enough monthly profit to keep investors going. The great thing about investing in the US is that we have fifty states' worth of land to buy, improve, and rent out. And today, we’ll be looking at three specific markets, all with wildly different price ranges and profit potential for 2023. Welcome back to this month’s BiggerNews, where your host Dave Meyer (not David Greene *gasp*) will be interviewing three of the most elite agents across the United States. We’ll talk to Rob Chevez, the investor and experienced agent operating in our nation’s capital, Washington, DC. You’ll also hear from Dahlia Khalaf, managing broker of ASN Realty Group in affordable Oklahoma. And, of course, we’ve got David Greene, California’s favorite realtor, here to talk about why sunny San Diego deserves an investment from you. With mid-priced markets like DC, affordable real estate in Oklahoma, and massively-appreciating west-coast properties to build your wealth, this episode of BiggerNews shows you how you can invest in ANY of these markets and build wealth in 2023. The agents also talk about the strategies that are working in each market and some of the major pitfalls you could stumble upon if you aren’t a local expert. Need to find an agent in your neck of the woods? Use the BiggerPockets Agent Finder to connect with a local expert in your area! In This Episode We Cover: How markets like Washington, DC, Tulsa, and San Diego are faring in 2023 The oversaturation of short-term rentals and which investors should avoid buying them The real estate “Bermuda triangle” and why every investor should buy at least one property there House hacking for cash flow and turning your primary residence into a paid-for mortgage  Subject to deals and other creative financing strategies that work as the buyer’s market takes shape Advice from expert agents around the country for investors in 2023 And So Much More! Links from the Show Find an Investor-Friendly Real Estate Agent BiggerPockets Youtube Channel BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Pro Membership BiggerPockets Bookstore BiggerPockets Bootcamps BiggerPockets Podcast BiggerPockets Merch Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Learn About Real Estate, The Housing Market, and Money Management with The BiggerPockets Podcasts Get More Deals Done with The BiggerPockets Investing Tools Find a BiggerPockets Real Estate Meetup in Your Area David's BiggerPockets Profile David's Instagram David’s YouTube Channel Dave's BiggerPockets Profile Dave's Instagram "On the Market" Podcast "On the Market" YouTube Channel Connect with Dahlia & Rob: ASN Dahlia's BiggerPockets Profile Dahlia's Facebook GRID Rob's BiggerPockets Profile Rob's Instagram Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/real-estate-697 Interested in learning more about today’s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Check out our sponsor page! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 697. Are you then recommending mostly long-term buy-and-hold type deals for your client? I do. I mean, I just feel like it's the safest route because people always need a place to live, right? And so your long-term rental is just going to be the most stable. And not only that, especially in these markets where you are seeing a lot of short-term rentals and then not enough properties for just, regular renters, which is why I'm sure they've implemented these restrictions for you guys. What's going on, everyone? This is David Green, your host of the Bigger Pockus podcast. And in case you've been living under Iraq, we are the best, the biggest, and the baddest real estate

podcast in the world. The show's being hijacked today by my co-host and friend Dave Meyer, who joins me from Amsterdam to bring you guys an awesome show with a little bit different of a situation than we normally have. Dave, welcome. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's a little bit of a hijacking. But we also just want to bring some of the things that we've been doing on my podcast on the market to this episode to help everyone listening to this episode get some knowledge about what's going on in the market. We do these like regular panel episodes where we get experts from across the industry and do sort of a roundtable discussion. And so today we're going to do one with different agents. So we've brought in two new real estate agents who are going to be coming to provide their insight. And David is going to switch roles. And instead of being the host, as he usually is, I'm going to sort of moderate the conversation. And David's going to put on his agent hat and help us understand what's going on in the markets that he operates in.

That's exactly right. I love getting to do this. I've been a real estate agent for a while now. And I'm still intimately involved in the details of the David Green team and what's going on in the market. And I buy houses in these markets too. So it's fun when I get to jump in and give the advice in the council of someone who's leading others towards building wealth the same way that I have. Were you an agent or an investor first? Investor.

Really? I'm probably the only one dumb enough to go from being the investor to willingly getting into the real estate agent space. Everybody in our market does it the other way. They're like, this is driving me crazy. I want to be the person to own the real estate, not sell it. But it's that drive to want to share the information. And there's not really a better way to share information about how to wealth build than jumping in the mix with you. your clients and walking them through that process.

Yeah, good point. It seems to have worked out well for you. And, uh, yeah, it's the best situation for an investor, right? Like if you, you know, are an investor and you willingly became an agent because you knew you had something to offer. I mean, that's, that's exactly as an investor who you want to be working with. And that brings us perfectly to today's quick tip. Wait, tip.

Do I have to say it weird? Do I have to say like, Brandon may me say it weird for years. And I can make you say deeper. Yeah. But no, that's that PTSD that I have from those high-pitched quick tips I did, I would never wish that on my worst enemy. So no. Okay.

We're liberated now. That's exactly right. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Today's quick tip. There we go. That was as boring as a game.

That's how you'd expect a data analyst to say quick. I calculated the most efficient way to say quick tip and then I said it that way. All right. Well, today's quick tip is to check out the Bigger Pockets Agent Finder. It's completely free. And as you're going to learn over the course of this episode, having a great agent is not just about doing all the transactional stuff that is involved in being a real estate investor and buying a property. But it's also someone, you know, someone who's a partner with you and helps you navigate these challenging times that we're going through. David, I'm guessing you agree.

But I personally believe you can make money in any type of economic stuff. cycle. It's just about adapting your strategy accordingly. And in this type of environment, it's more important than ever to find a good partner who's usually an agent to help you adapt your strategy to meet what's going on in your market. So if you want to do that, you want to find a great investor-friendly agent. You can do that for free on BiggerPockets. Just go to biggerpockets.com slash agent finder. You put in your market like San Diego, Washington, D.C. or Tulsa. Those are where our guests are from today. You just enter in what you're looking for. what you're investing in, and then you can get matched with agents who can help you succeed.

So that is the quick tip. I guess I'll give a second quick tip because you said I can do whatever I want, and that's if you like this type of market-based information, these panel discussions, check out BiggerPockets, other podcasts. It's called On the Market. You can find it anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, whatever. David, anything else before we get into this episode. Yeah. Last thing I'll leave people with is when you're using the agent finder, you're still going to have to vet the agent to make sure this is a person that you want representing you. So take the conversations that we're having here today and use them as a form of template or a model that you want to be able to have a similar conversation with the agent that you're choosing.

If you have an agent on there that's never sold a house, just because they're on the deal finder doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be amazing. It also doesn't mean that they're going to suck. You don't know. You got to have the conversation with them and figure out what they know about the market, what strategies they can recommend, and what they can do to help you on your goal. A lot of people always say, what am I supposed to ask my agent? we'll listen to today's show, hear the conversations we're having and try to find the closest thing you can to that.

David, I love that advice because I just think that's true of anything. Like finding an agent or anything, people, you need to just vet whoever you're working with in real estate investing. Like even if you hire a turnkey company, you do a syndication. Like make sure you do your due diligence. That's an important part of being an investor. Okay. One more thing.

Sorry, you told me that I could do what I want with a quick tip. And now I'm drunk with power and I'm going to give one more tip. And that's if you like this show, if you like on the market, please give us a positive review. We really appreciate them. It really helps us make these great shows that you all love and rely on to become informed and successful investors. With no further ado, let's get to today's interview. For decades, real estate has been a cornerstone of the world's largest portfolios. But it's also historically been sort of complex, time consuming, and expensive. But imagine if real estate investing was suddenly easy.

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could you please tell everyone listening a little bit about yourself? Thanks for having me, guys. I appreciate it. I'm Rob Chavez out of the Washington, D.C. Metro Market. I have the honor and privilege of leading the Casa Group. We're a team within Keller Williams that will do around 180 million in volume this year. And I run one of the largest real estate investment networks in the country called Grid. And I'm just happy to be here. I'm happy to participate. So I appreciate it, guys. Great. Thank you so much. Next, we have Dahlia Caliph. Dahlia. Could you please introduce yourself? Yes. Well, also, thanks for having me. I am so excited to be here. So,

My name is Dalia Callif. I am the owner and managing broker of ASN Realty Group. I've been an agent for about 15 years and then a broker for the last two. I also have my own investment portfolio that I personally manage. And I primarily work with investors. And my real estate firm has just kind of naturally evolved into an investment first. and it's kind of our niche. And that's pretty much me in a nutshell. And I'm just super thankful to be here. All right. Great. I feel kind of weird asking you to introduce yourself, David. But just for giggles, why don't why did you introduce yourself to everyone who probably already knows you? I am the other David in the

David and David shows here, often called Dave and David by real estate connoisseurs who are a little more cultured. But I'm a real estate gadfly. I do a whole bunch of different stuff. I run the David Green team, so we sell homes all throughout California. I'm looking to continue helping the BP community representing them out here. I have a mortgage company called the One Brokridge, where we help people finance real estate all across the country. And then I buy Reynolds all over the place, write books about real estate and host the Bigger Pockets podcast, which is what people already probably know if they're listening to this. Let's hope so.

today we're going to be talking to all of you, you know, all have a lot of experience, but talking to you in the context of being real estate agents, because so much of what's going on right now in the market is very fast pace and it's sort of hard to keep up. Even something like me who looks at a lot of data, data is always in arrears, it's backward looking. And so we want to hear from all of you about what you're seeing on the ground in your respective markets and what you're counseling your clients with and how you're how you're preparing yourself for the for this shifting market dynamic so rob i'd love to start with you can you quickly just tell me a little bit about the dc market over the last couple of years like what happened during the pandemic and

has anything changed recently well a lot is a lot has changed so let's let's up but let's go back in time a little bit let's start like from 2017 the 2019, right? We saw just kind of this modest appreciation at three to four percent, and which was normal. Same volume of properties was selling year over year. And then in 2020, we saw an 8.5% spike in appreciation. And then we also saw a 5% increase in the number of homes that were selling. So more homes sold for 8.5% more. But then the next year was super interesting, 2021. we saw a massive spike. We saw another 8.5% or 8.2% growth in the DC metro market.

But there was a 13% year over year increase in the volume of homes, the number of homes that sold. So we just had a lot more homes sell. It's almost like we pulled some of those future sales into the present, right? And then year to date, it's been fascinating because year to date, we still have experienced about a 6% appreciation, but we've seen a 19% drop in the number of homes sold. So pretty significant. And really, you know, we know it's the second half of this year. It's really been the second half of this year. When I compared the Q3 of this year, compared to Q3 of last year, it's pretty fascinating. I mean, it's like a 26% drop in the volume of homes, but we still had a 3% appreciation, right? So, you know, that,

Just not, there's still low inventory in our market, right? About a 24, average days on market is 24 days. And there's about a month and a half supply in the DC metro area, you know. But if you drill even go down a little bit deeper, what's fascinating is that DC, DC proper, is actually having kind of its worst five-year cycle. And so DC is experiencing longer days on market. more inventory than the historical five-year-hour average. And it'll be interesting to see how this plays out over the next couple years.

I think what we've done is we've gotten to the other side. And so like we hit this inflection point. And now over the next quarter to two, we're going to start seeing a significant drop, in my opinion. All right. That's great. I want to get to the point where you tell us a little bit more about what you think's happening.

But so sounds like you had a solid growth for five years. years with the last two years seeing above average appreciation. I think you said 8.5% in 2020, 2020, which in a normal year, in normal times is pretty, pretty high. I mean, that's, that's extraordinary. But not necessarily compared to some other markets. Like David, in San Diego, what were appreciation rates like over the pandemic? Where you, I mean, I assume it was double digits, right? Well, before the pandemic, things were humming along, really, really well in that market. California is a big market. We like to call it California around here. A lot of people don't realize northern California and southern California could be different states.

They might as well be like North Carolina and South Carolina. So every city is different. You can't look at this state and say this is what's happening. But San Diego has been one of our crown jewels for as long as I've been around. It is massively popular. There's hardly any reason to see why that would change. The industry is very solid there. The weather's incredible there. And so before the pandemic, days on market was at less than two weeks. Like houses, even an old ugly house was just flying off the shelves because everybody wants to be in San Diego when inventory was always the biggest problem that we had there. Now with rates going up, I've talked about this before, the higher that a price point is in San Diego, the average price point in the city is about a million. And

if it's in the county, it's about 800,000. But higher price points, the markets become very sensitive to interest rate hikes. When you get a higher rate, if it's a $200,000 house, it doesn't have a big effect, but on a million dollar house, that's massive. And so you sort of see a point where a market can only get to be so expensive if people are using loans to buy the properties. Now, you also have a couple areas in California where people just pay cash, they don't care. They've got $8 million. They go throw it down on a house. They're not going to be using financing. So those markets are different than these. That's just pure comparable sales. And they actually can do better in down markets because people want to throw their money onto a beachfront property in Southern California.

If they're worried that the market's going to crash, that's a safe place to hold it. But San Diego in particular has slowed down from what it was like pre-pendemic. It's actually growing at about 1%, which is not amazing, but that's actually an incredible good opportunity for looking to buy in San Diego because it's been very, very difficult. It's not crashing by any means, but days of market have about doubled in the last year. So they were around two weeks. Now they're sitting just under four weeks right now, which means buyers actually have a chance to get into one of the most solid markets in the country. Awesome. Great. Well, that's just, it's super helpful to understand because already we're seeing different dynamics in certain types of markets. You know, D.C. it seems like it's sort of been for the last five years slow and steady, hasn't started to come down so much yet, but it's maybe at the precipice, whereas San Diego saw this explosive growth and now is, I guess, at least approaching.

flat. Dahlia, how is it in Tulsa? I think that's probably one of the markets I'm personally not as familiar with. So curious to learn what's been happening in your area over the last few years. Yeah. So, you know, Tulsa is going to be very different from you guys' markets. We are always a very stable market as long as I've been in real estate. So even things that are affecting you guys on the coast and you're seeing a lot more in terms of price drops and that kind of thing or huge inflate, you know, appreciations and that kind of thing. We see some of those things, but on a much smaller scale just because we're just so stable there in the Midwest, right? So, you know, we saw our median sales price back in 2020 was around 200,000. And now we're at around around

$250. That's our median sales price right now. So we saw some really good appreciation these last two years. But what a lot of us in the real estate business here are saying is that this is Tulsa playing catch up. We were so undervalued for so long. And now we feel like we're getting to where we should have been and just stabilizing. And then as far as days on market, obviously in 2020, things were just flying. Our average days on market was less than eight days. Now we're around two weeks, so things have slowed down, but they're still moving fairly well, especially in certain price points. Our inventory is still low. Back in 2020, it's still very low. We have less than two months worth of inventory right now. And then obviously, the interest rates are the huge

factor that we're seeing between 2020 and now is how that has impacted, you know, buyer demand. So those are the main things. I would say especially our under 200,000 is still moving very well. Once you get over the 220, 230 price point, and I think that's obviously because it's closer to our median sales price, things are not. moving as much, staying on the market longer. Well, just for context for everyone listening, going from eight days of days on market to two weeks is a dramatic shift percentage-wise, but is still remarkably low in any historical

context. Anything really under, I don't know, 30 days is still pretty low, I guess, depending on the market. So it sounds like things generally in Tulsa are still, would you say it's still a seller's market or how would you categorize the environment now? Now, when I'm talking about that eight days on market, we're talking about in 2020. Now, if we're talking about prior to that, it probably was closer to around 30 days. But this was once we started seeing the inventory shortages and all of that. Now, as far as buyers market, sellers market, I feel like under 200,000 is a seller's

market still. That's a competitive price point. I mean, think about what your entry level price point is in your markets versus ours is just so much lower, you know. So, but once you get to that 230, 240 and up, it's definitely become more of a buyer's market. So how, Rob, you mentioned that in your market in DC that you think at least DC proper. And I know DC is a pretty, you know, diverse, group, you know, metro area. Like, it's comprised of like Virginia, right, West Virginia, Maryland all over the place. It's got a lot, a lot of facets to it. Kind of like, yeah, kind of like California. And so you mentioned that you think things are going down. Can you tell us first why you think that? And then secondly, if that's the case, how do you

advise your clients right now about what to buy and how to invest wisely? I feel like what we've experienced is tons of momentum in a number. inertia, right? So we have all this inertia that pulled us, has been pulling us through in, in 20, 2020. And we start seeing a slowdown. Like I'm hearing Dalia say the same thing. There's a little bit of a slowdown, you know, in her market. Same thing with David, right? And that inertia will start going the other way. And we're already seeing it in D.C. proper, it's still, here's the thing, guys, seriously, it's still a seller's market, right? There is, in Virginia, in northern Virginia, there's, a month and a half of inventory, or, you know, some submarkets, it's under 30-day inventory.

In DC proper, it's like 2.4 months. So that is still a seller's market. It just feels so much different than the 15 days. I think that was the lowest that we had, Dali and our market was like 15 days, right? It's now crept back up. But what I'm seeing is that just like there was momentum going up, there's now momentum going the other way. And there's no way to time a market.

Like, Dave, I believe that if the numbers work for somebody and depending on like what their, their hypothesis is and the numbers work, they should buy, right? And if somebody's looking to hold on to an asset long term, they should buy, right, if they can make the numbers work. You know, rentals increased quite a bit. So it helped kind of calibrate some of those higher prices. And within our market, people have gone just an hour away. in places like Front Royal or in Winchester,

and the Airbnb market is thriving in that market right now. And so what we do is we just kind of look at where can we get the return, right? And how can we help clients win over the long haul? And over the long haul, things look great, right? Employment in this area is ridiculously amazing. We're like a tech hub in this area. We've got the government that's in our backyard. I mean, that's the thing with the Washington, D.C. metro market is that we've always had

the government that kind of helps stabilize us and is a backbone to the business. And then we've got all these tech companies that are generating a lot of new jobs. And so even though we're going to see a dip in pricing, which I believe we'll see a dip in pricing to Q1 of next year, still an incredibly good market over the long haul to buy it. Right. And, you know, I went through the whole 2007, 2008, you know, craziness and values came right back and past that. So long term, still a great market for us to be buying into. I'm glad you brought up 2008, Rob, because I wanted to ask you about that. DC strikes me as one of those markets that are relatively recession, resilient, I would say. That's a term. Sure. And just because of the government public sector jobs,

Like, they're less cyclical and volatile than a lot of private sector jobs. So do you know, like, did D.C. bounce back faster than other areas of the country? Was the dip as severe? Or how did it compare to other markets back then? So it held better than other markets for sure, especially compared to a lot of the sand states that are out there. But we still got whacked in certain areas in, in the DC metro market, like 30%, 35% off market highs. But then by 2009, 2010, you started seeing values come back up.

And, you know, Dave, I remember in 2012, 2013, because we bought, like, I'm an active buyer as well, we bought things at such discount. When things started rebounding in 2012, 2013, I felt like things were overpriced. and I kind of pulled back some of my buying a little bit like shame on me for doing that right um but it just it just it you know there'd been a 30 35 percent drop and I just bought a pretty low prices but it came back pretty quickly all right cool thank you rob that's super helpful I mean I think uh over time I've just seen this dynamic where certain markets are a little bit more volatile they spike up they come down. They peak in valley a little bit more. But certain markets, it sounds like DC is more of like a

slow and steady kind of thing. But that can be very beneficial, especially for long term investors. David, what about you? You said appreciation is out to 1%, which is obviously still up, but a pretty big shift. I was actually, well, let me just, I'll share something I read the other day after, but just what do you think the play is in San Diego right now? What are you advising your clients? You're probably not going to, your average person isn't going to go get nine San Diego rental properties, okay? They're going to have to put 200, 250,000 down on every one of them.

Then you got to just look for the needle in the haystack to make it work as far as the cash flow is concerned. It's not really a market where you're going to make this the meat and potatoes of your portfolio. But I'm very big on what I call understanding portfolio architecture. How do you add properties to your portfolio that complement each other, that make up for the weaknesses of other properties with the strengths of this and vice versa? San Diego is very resilient.

To me, I think it's the best weather I've ever seen, and it might be the best weather in the entire world. We just had BPCon there. Every time I go, I'm like, I could never live here because I would never work. This would be, it's the Bermuda triangle. It's so nice. Yeah. Like, you're not, people that have money are going to want to.

be there. There's no way around that. And whether it's not dependent on industry or population trends or whatever technology company happened to go there and bring all the jobs with them, and they can't really build a ton because the city's built out really far. So the play for San Diego, in my opinion, is that if you're a resident there, you need to be buying a property and house hacking. I think this is the best house hacking market in the entire country, as far as what I know. And it's because it's got all the pieces that you need. A bunch of people that want to live there that will never be able to afford a home, so they've got to be able to rent something.

We all know somebody who moved to San Diego after high school and never came back, and they're still working at a bar, working at a restaurant. They're not ever going to be a homeowner because they're stuck in that Bermuda Triangle. They need a place to rent. Then you've got the rents that are crazy, expensive for you if you're trying to live there. Okay, so house hacking works best in areas where housing is expensive. It gives you this added benefit of doing it. And then you've got the fact that it's got a strong short-term rental market, but it's very difficult to get a short-term rental deal from the city.

They limit how many people can actually do short-term rental. So if you want to try to just go buy a property and throw it up as an STR, the odds of you getting picked or low, and that's a very expensive property to hold while you're waiting. But if you live in the property yourself, you can rent out another part of it as a short-term rental. It's sort of a backdoor that you can get in, which is just another benefit. to house hacking. So I don't think that you're going to build your entire portfolio full of San Diego properties, but you definitely should have one or a couple if you can get it over a span of a couple years because the appreciation is going to be incredible. And it's not an investment. You're going to have to have significant worry about losing. It's not an area like, oh, fracking went away. So all these

properties in North Dakota that were exploding at one point cut off completely. Dave, the DC metro market is similar. It's a house hacking. kind of market for investors. But then if you just go an hour outside, hour and a half outside of D.C., you've got some beautiful country, you've got the, you know, you've got the Blue Mountains, you've got the Shenandoah River. And STRs are where I'm seeing a lot of, a lot of investors go out to those markets and making the numbers work. And it doesn't sound like there's the same hurdles that you have to go through compared to a place like California. You know, one of the rules is in the Warren County area, you just have to be a hundred feet away from your neighbor.

That's it. If you're, you know, if you're 100 feet away from your, for your, from your surrounding neighbors, like if you go through the process, pretty easy to get a permit for, for an STR. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. Dahlia, I want to, I want to check in with you. What do you think, like, what are the top three strategies you recommend right now, given what's going on in Tulsa? So Tulsa is definitely more successful when it comes to long-term rentals right now. We, surprisingly, we do have quite a few short-term rentals, although we're not necessarily a vacation destination. I think the culture has just changed, especially in the last two years where people would just rather rent, you know, a house or a townhome or whatever than stay in a hotel to accommodate.

their family or just to be more comfortable. So we did see quite a bit of saturation with STRs here. And we don't have all those limitations in terms of getting a license here. It's very easy. It's basically, I think, $300 for a license for the year. There's no inspection, there's no process you go through other than just applying and paying the license fee. Okay. So we saw a huge influx of STRs in the last, I'd say, four years. And so now we're pretty saturated. So I'm definitely, you know, I had clients purchase STRs in the last couple years. Now I'm advising, it's always great to purchase something that would serve great as both, something that's in a location that would do well as an STR or an LTR so that you have the flexibility to flip back and

forth if you need to. You have an exit strategy. Yeah. I mean, I love that, that point about creating that flexibility. That's a great way to protect yourself and mitigate risk. I was just curious, though, how do you, how are you seeing, how is this oversaturation and STR is manifesting itself? Like, what are you seeing that is telling you that this is, there's too many right now? Vacancy. Okay. And are you seeing clients that have bought STRs struggle to make their numbers work? So, you know, and I try to keep, you know, in contact with my clients after they purchase, you know, we stay connected. I, you know, try to keep a pulse on what's going on. So far, the ones that had STRs, they're doing okay, the ones especially that are in

more high demand locations. But I'll tell you where I saw more of a flip is my clients that bought midterm rentals specifically catering to traveling nurses, which, you know, we saw an influx of those during COVID. But then as things calmed down, those contracts got canceled. And so I did see multiple clients of mine that had bought midterm flip to either short term or long term. Got it. That's super helpful to know. Honestly, I think you hear a lot about the things that are working, which is always helpful. But it's great to hear the things that you would recommend people stay away from that's that's uh that's really helpful for our audience so are you then recommending mostly long-term buy-and-hold type deals for your client i do i mean if if you're going into it one i just feel

like it's the safest route because people always need a place to live right and so your long-term rental is just going to be the most stable and not only that especially in these markets where so especially for you guys where you are seeing a lot of lot of short-term rentals and then not enough, not enough properties for just regular renters, which is why I'm sure they've implemented these restrictions for you guys. Yeah, that's super interesting. And yeah, I think I personally, I'm, I know this is a boring thing to say, but I just think you can't go wrong with buying all the best thing. It just, it just works as long as you hold on to it through the cycle. If it's not broke, don't fix it. Yeah, exactly.

David, I'm curious, you know, there is this dynamic where, you know, I mostly invest in Denver and there's this dynamic where they put in a lot of short-term rental restrictions where it has to be your primary residence. So basically you need like an ADU or like, you know, I have a primary. I live out of the country, so I could rent out my primary. But for the people who have it, it actually turns out to be even more lucrative in those markets because there's constrained. supply. So like, do you see people who do this like house hacking strategy like really do well with their short-term rentals? Yeah. And you made such a good point. The fact that it's a constraint supply to many people is a reason they don't want to invest in the market. Oh, it's hard. I wrote an offer. I didn't get accepted. I wrote two. It just isn't going to work. I'm just going to go out of state. I'm going to go find a market where I can get a house under contract right away. But I, there's this rhythm to life. I need to come up with a name. If Brandon Turner was here, he'd come up with the name. He was very good at that. Brands everything. Yes. If it's easy on the front end,

it's hard on the back end. If it's easy on the back end, it's hard on the front end. And human beings have this erroneous belief that they can have both. They think like, all right, it's a market where real estate's appreciating rapidly. It should be easy to get into that market. No, the fact it's appreciating rapidly is why it's hard to get in. And if it was easy to get in, you wouldn't get on the back end, all the appreciation, all the increasing rents. Like every real estate agent understands this. You can't have a buyer's market and a sell market at the same time. You have to learn what makes this market appealing. So it, for instance, in the city of San Diego or the area, it is the fact that supply is very constrained. There's massive

demand for it and it's very expensive. So the stakes are high. You can make good money if you do it well. But you can't just go buy a track house. It's got to be a place that's got an ADU or ideally two ADUs or play. You could turn something into an ADU that other people aren't seeing. It's got to have something unique about that. And then when you buy it, you're going to do great on the short rental market. There's a lot of conferences that happen in the San Diego area that a lot of people travel to. There's a lot of vacationing. I mean, like the weather's so nice. There's people that don't go to Mexico. They'll just go to San Diego, even though it's right there because it's so, so nice. But the key that I think every good agent understands is helping their clients see the angle

that works in their market. You can't hear about what works in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and go try to do the exact same thing in Washington, D.C. And vice versa. There's very specific strategies that we talk about on these podcasts that work better in certain locations and in better cycles in the market. And the right agent who's listening to Bigger Pockets, who owns investment properties, who's working with investors all the time, they're like the Sherpa that can lead you to the top of your own markets, Mount Everest.

They can help you find the deals, right? And so those are the questions I just think people should ask. If you're going to work with us in San Diego, you want to know, what are your other clients doing that's working? What are some things you're figuring out? The same would go for Tulsa and for Washington, D.C. Don't try to take that basic understanding that, well, I heard this strategy on the podcast, so go make it work when the market doesn't, it's not applicable to that specific set of

circumstances that the market's facing. Or, well, I want to be a short-term rental investor, but I want to invest in this area because it has the best something else. Sometimes they're in conflict with each other and they don't work. I don't know if you guys are seeing this. in your market, but in our market, we're seeing a lot more sub-tus and lease options, a lot of creative financing. You know, there's a lot of that happening right now because we had all of these really low interest rates that people have locked in for some time, and yet life happens,

right? Death, divorce drugs, like all the rest, and people need solutions. And so I'm seeing a number of my investors kind of shift to some of these strategies. And, you know, we just, we just put property at a contract. It's a lease option at $1.2 million, you know, and they put down a $100,000 non-refundable deposit because they just couldn't settle straight away, but they still wanted to lock in the property. And so we're seeing some of these strategies kind of come back. And an agent that understands how to navigate those strategies or has done this before is more valuable in this marketplace, right? They see real estate from a 360 standpoint versus just kind of like the narrow lens of helping somebody buy and sell, you're literally becoming a problem solver in a market where people are

going to face problems and the right agent's going to know how to solve those problems for their clients. Rob, can you explain quickly what sub two is and why it's becoming more popular? Sure. Well, we all know, right? Interest rates have been really low for a long time. People locked in at, you know, 2%, 2.25%, 3%. And these loans are out there. And life happens where somebody, for whatever, reason might lose a job. You know, you see all these tech companies. They did lay off thousands of people. And now they, they have an asset, not only the physical asset, but the mortgage, the underlying mortgage itself is an asset that becomes valuable to somebody. And sub two is merely just taking over the payments for somebody in exchange for the deed of that property. And you might

pay them some of the equity up front. You might be able to structure it so you pay them some of the equity on the back end, but it's a way to solve somebody's problem if, let's say, not even if they're behind, right? Like, let's just say they were an expired person who failed to sell the first time, but they need to sell because there's a job relocation happening and it's a pretty house. Well, they've got a really good loan on that asset. An investor like myself might be able to put that property under contract, right, and essentially buy that property with the underlying debt that's there. So effectively, the loan stays in that seller's name, right? They, we effectively, we almost become partners together in that respect. And so I know our team has

completed a couple this past month. We've helped navigate that process with some of our sellers. And we personally had bought. I bought one last year in the process of buying one right now that way. And it's just a, it's another, it's just one additional strategy, Dave, that people can news in a shifting market like we're in today. And as long as you can create a win-win win for everybody, then you should employ it. Thank you. That's super helpful. Yeah. And if you can you can find those types of deals super beneficial right now. And hopefully there's more sellers willing to do that for for investors out there who are interested in it. Daya, David mentioned earlier about, you know, people trying to find great agents. And I think it's a

perfect example, especially in these types of markets. Like over the last couple of years, you could just buy anything and it would go up and it looked great. But these are more challenging times. Do you have any advice to people who are, you know, trying to find a good agent to work with to help them navigate these times? Like, what should they be looking for in an investor-friendly agent? Sure. So I think one important thing is, are they an investor themselves? You know, do they own investment property? It just gives them, like, what, was talking about it just gives them insight that a non-investor just most likely doesn't know. I've had, I don't know how many times where I have someone come to me and they say,

hey, I was working with this other agent, they were great, but they just don't get it. You know, I need someone that understands the investment world. As an investor agent, you just have such a pulse on what's going on, or at least you should. You should know what the rental rates are like. You should know how long properties are sitting, you know, rental properties are sitting on the market. Is this a good area? You know, is this a rentable area? You're going to have an understanding about, you're going to have resources, contractors,

property managers, creative financing lenders, all these things that a non-investor agent just doesn't have access to because it's just not part of their niche. So that's why I just think it's imperative to have somebody who is an investor themselves and just very familiar with what's going on in the investment world. Tell you were you were you an agent first or a real estate investor first? So I was an agent first. I got my license about 15 years ago. It just kind of happened by chance. And not only that, my dad's an investor.

So I always knew that at some point I was going to go that route, you know, it was just getting financially ready for it. But I grew up around it, grew up with my dad buying rental properties. So it's just always been around me. That's awesome. Is it, was it hard? Like, did you have to learn or do anything extra to start catering and working with investors once you were already an agent? I mean, I feel like it just happened organically because I was already an agent and an investor. I was getting referrals, people that were just referring people to me because they knew that I was doing both and that I was knowledgeable. And so it just kind of naturally happened that way. As far as doing anything extra, not really.

I just gained experience working with a lot of investors, especially the out-of-state investors. I've pretty much created a very seamless process for them now, since I'm eyes and ears for those out-of-stake folks that a lot of time never even set foot in the property they purchase. So it's really just experience. Awesome. What about you, Rob? How have you built out your expertise as an investor-friendly agent?

And what other advice do you have for people who are looking to find a great partner to work with? So a couple of things. One, I love, actually the investor, I'm going to say it right now, the investor-friendly agent moniker, hate that moniker. Really? Yeah, only because I feel like what you are, it almost sounds like go-fetch. Go-fetch as a friendly investor agent, right? But really, the moniker is really more of a consultant, right? Like helping somebody understand all of real estate from a 360 standpoint. So I know everybody uses it. It's just one of my things. things, right? But I started off as an investor first, right? So as an investor first, my wife and I would buy 20 to 25 houses a year. We'd fix up small multifamily properties. We'd then sell them to

investors turn key. Then we would manage assets for other investors. And we'd learn the game there. And what I realized was that we had a skill set at that point to be able to guide other people to be able to do the same. When you put your own money where your mouth is to sell your own asset and manage your own asset, you understand all the little nuances that help you make a better return on the investments that you buy. And so I really feel that a great agent investor understands those nuances. They're consultants. Like David said, they're Sherpas, right? They're literally guides in the marketplace that can help you build massive wealth. And, you know, I think the only way that you're going to learn how to do that is by doing it yourself.

Like, how can you possibly take anybody on a wealth journey if you haven't gone on the wealth journey yourself, right? And so I think that that's a critical component of being able to help other people, right? You just got to, you got to do it yourself. Got it. That's great advice. And I will never call you an investor-friendly agent again. It's a lot of. No, it's fine. It's fine. Everybody uses it. Can't escape it. We got to come up, David,

you got to come up with something that's better than that. Shirpa. Yeah, the Shirpa, right? We talk about, we tell our agents, you're not an order taker. This isn't a restaurant where someone says, can I have a Coke and you run and get it and bring it to them? What else would you like? All that is is people absolving themselves of the responsibility of leadership. It's easier if someone tells you what to do. You don't have to think. Do you want the person at the best restaurants? I used to work in like fine dining places when I was in college where I don't say, what do you want? I say, would you like wine tonight?

Maybe what do you have? And then I show them the list. And I say, if you're looking for something like this, this would be a good pick. But if you want something like this, that would be. And then you ask me questions. And then I show you I know about wine. So now my suggestion sounds like something you'd want to trust. Real estate should work the same way just with higher stakes and more details.

If you're an agent and you don't know what's happening in your market, it's like being a person that is trying to sell wine and you don't know anything about wine. You want to be recommending things to people. You want to be advising them, leading them in a sense. And you got to have confidence to do it. And I love the point you made that you should be building wealth for yourself. Ideally, you want an agent that owns properties in that market and is very comfortable with it. Because if your motive to become an agent was, I hate my job, I hate my life. I just want a different one. Maybe I'll strike it rich. You're like the person that, you know, move out to California for the gold rush and try to figure out like, maybe the face will bless me, right?

That's those were not the people they did well. The ones that did well had a plan, right? They were the people that went out there. They sold the picks and the shovels to the gold miners. That's what you need. You need to be the agent who has a plan who's doing it yourself, who's in it for the right reasons. You have the right motives.

You're trying to help people build wealth because you're also building wealth. Nobody wants a personal trainer that looks terrible. You pick the personal trainer. That looks really nice, right? So if you're financially unfit, then you're going to have a very hard time being the Sherpa, they can get people to the top of that mountain. Yeah, the agent investor advisor or something. I don't know. Yeah, you need to lead by example, David, right? You know, it's like you can't just, you know,

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That's n-R-E-I-G.com slash B-P-Pod. Well, this has been super fun, but we do have to get out of here soon. But I would love for you all to leave us with one piece of advice. So could you each give me 60 seconds or less on why you think your market is a great place for investors to consider investing right now? David, your experience. I'll make you go first. Experience at podcasting.

I know you're all experienced investors. and agents. I could just make David put him on the hot seat first. Yeah, I dropped so many mics that they actually put it on a stand so I can't drop it. I was breaking material with all these great quips. My advice is don't think I'm too busy to help you with getting a house. That's something that like people just stop reaching out to me when I started hosting the podcast. I have an entire freaking company that's designed just to help you make money with real estate

with all of the information that I've learned that I've tried to pass on to my agents to help you. So reach out. The second piece of advice that I'll give is stop looking at what's right in front of your nose. Okay. Whenever we talk about strategies that work, people that built wealth, unless they invested in FTX and they thought that they were really rich, which they're now regretting, it's people that took a long-term perspective. The people that made money in real estate did it over 20 years, over 30 years. They didn't buy a house.

And when one fence board broke, they thought, oh, this isn't worth it. You know, there's an expense I didn't know. They played the long game. So stop zooming in on what's happening right now or how to get the perfect deal or waiting for the perfect market. And then 10 years go by and it never came and you lost hundreds of thousands of dollars that you could have made. Had you just found the best deal you could in the situation that you were in right there and then went and recapitalized so that you could do it again and let time does what it does with real estate. So I'm constantly just trying to be an evangelist for this, this zoom out perspective that I have. no one remembers what was in their inspection report 30 years ago.

You can all ask your parents or your grandparents, what freaked you out about buying the house? And they don't remember. They don't know the escrow officer's name. They don't know the inspection report. They don't know what interest rates were. What they know is how much money that they made in real estate holding it over a period of time, letting the loan get paid off and letting inflation appreciate the asset. Love it.

And I assume you believe that San Diego is a great place for that long term, right? Like, you know, there's been a lot of exodus from California or people. say, you know, like that, but you still believe San Diego long term is going to, is going to perform well. Yeah, that's a good point too. Your agent should be able to guide you. I would tell San Diego is very strong or his county is very strong. There's a lot of places in San Francisco that are still strong. Okay, like downtown L.A., not very strong. That's not a place that I'd be aggressively riding offers right now. So you have to, like not every path to the top of Mount Everest, to use an analogy, is the same, right? And when weather changes, you're going to take different paths. Sherpas know all of them. So that's

why you want to have an agent that knows your market so we can guide you away from the wrong areas and into the right. San Diego is one where I'm happy to talk about on a show like this because that is as resilient and bulletproof of a market as I'm aware of. And when things are slowing down like they are right now, you want to be in the grade A places. This is not a time to get into D neighborhoods or even C minus neighborhoods. You can get away with that when the market's going up, up, up, or right after you've already had a crash, not when we're sitting at a point where we don't know where things are going like right now. Great advice. Dahlia, what about you? What's a, what would you say for people who are considering

Tulsa? What's your, what's your pitch? I mean, the great thing about Tulsa is affordability. I mean, you can get a great single family rental for under 200,000 and stability. You know, like I said, we're not seeing the crazy ups and downs. It's you park your money there, just like what David was saying, this is not a sprint. This is a marathon, you know? So, um, Tulsa is a great growing market. We are seeing some really good appreciation, catch up. It's just a perfect time to invest here. A few things that I would just like to touch on is, you know, if you're looking to get started,

just take that first step. Nobody regrets, you know, their first investment purchase. They regret not doing it sooner. So there's never a better time than now. Get your finances in place. Get your lending figured out. Find the right agent. which is hopefully while you're watching this and learning about all of us great agents on here,

and run your numbers. You know, use those bigger pocket tools. They make it so easy for you to run the numbers and then just take the emotion out of it. And if the numbers make sense, do it. All right. Thank you. And Rob, what about the D.C. area? Well, this is our nation's capital.

We've got, you know, the federal government that's kind of like the backstop here in this market. We've got a lot of growth, a lot of technology growth happening in this. market. And, you know, I just echo what David said. I mean, long term, this market has just been stable, just keeps growing, keeps getting bigger and bigger. I mean, a couple years ago, I listed my dad's best friend's home, his family, his mom and dad had passed. And this was in Arlington. Arlington is a ridiculously hot market in our backyard. And they bought the house, they got their house for $45,000. And I remember talking to him.

He said, you know, I felt like I overpaid for the house when I bought it. And today that dirt was worth $850,000, right? So just time, right? Time in a growth market. Like this is a business that plays out over time. So I echo everything that David said in this market is just a great. market to see a play out over time. Yeah, let me say one last piece before I get out of here. It's not always about do I invest in San Diego or Tulsa or Washington, D.C. I think that there is

absolutely a way you construct a portfolio where you invest in all of those markets and you just construct it in a way that the long-term appreciation you get in San Diego is going to be paired with the short-term cash flow that you can get in Washington, D.C., and the cash flow paired with like actual odds of scoring and being successful investing in Tulsa. Right? You find the best properties for what you want to do in each one. You put them together. They all sort of make up for the weaknesses of the others with the strengths that they provide and you continue to build momentum buying in the right markets and putting it together like a puzzle piece versus thinking, I got to pick the best one. And then you stay in analysis paralysis for six years and then just beat yourself up because you never bought a house for six years. And then every time you listen to the podcast, you get like guilt and you feel terrible and then you don't want to do it. You see this side of the spiral that I'm talking about getting into. That's what we want people to avoid. David, do you do people have to, do you think they have to leave San Diego to build that portfolio? Can they buy? I mean, San Diego, but California is huge, right? Do they, I mean, Northern California is considerably different than Southern California. Can you construct that same portfolio properties there and never leave the state?

You absolutely could because the principles are the same. And it places the versus California. You can grab one from this city or this city or this strategy and this strategy. It's a, it's a principle that will work. And it doesn't have to be across the country. that the idea would be in Dahlia's market, you can get something that cash flows. You're not going to be fighting with 100 other people. The price points are not going to be massively high. So you're not making a million dollar mistake. You're making a $200,000 mistake as you're learning.

And then once you've got some momentum, you're like, hey, now I want to go invest in one of these other markets where the stakes are a little bit higher and I could take the training wheels off. Maybe you don't want to start off there. And then the same would be true of individual properties in those individual markets. We all know the markets within our own city where this is where the big boys play. And this is the shallow end of the pool where you can get your feet wet and you can get into an FHA loan and relatively reduce your risk as you learn the rhythm here. But it's breaking out of that mindset, I got to be perfect.

I got to find the perfect deal at the perfect time in history with the perfect tenant. And when nothing is perfect and you don't take any action. I have one more question. I'm sorry, Dave. Just my question for Dahlia, because were most of your investors coming from like California? Yes. Okay. Most of my investors are from California.

I've seen some, you know, I have some from Colorado, Texas, you know, some other places, but the bread and better is California. Okay, great. Well, I would love, thank you all, first of all, so much for being here. I would love for you to just tell our listeners where they can connect with you if they want to do that. Rob, where should people find you? Sure.

They can go to gridinvestor.com or just find me on Instagram, Rob Chavez. at Rob Chavez. Pretty simple. All right. What about you, Dahlia? So I have my website is asnrealti group.com. You can also find me on my Facebook page at ASN Realty Group. And then, of course, on bigger pockets. All right. Great. And then David, I know you're pretty tough to find, but where could people seek you out?

I will give you an email that you are guaranteed to get an answer at. Email us at info at David Green24.com. I-N-F-O at David Green24.com. There's a E at the end of there. I have a person monitoring that email all day long. We would love to help you with buyers selling in California. I am not too busy to help you buy or sell a house. That's actually why I exist.

So please, like the biggest thing ever is when somebody uses another agent and comes to me and they say, they screwed it all up. What do I do? And say, why didn't you ask me? I thought you were too busy. But I wasn't too busy to come ask me how to fix it, huh? Reach out to us first. All right.

Well, David, Rob and Dahlia, thank you all so much. This was really insightful. And hopefully everyone listening can learn a little bit about how to navigate the current market, what's going on and what to look for when you're building your team in the correcting transitionary market that we're in. Thank you all so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you.

All right. Thank you so much to our panel for joining us today. They all abandoned me. So it's just me here, Dave, now. And I'll just remind you that if you do want to. to connect with any of our panelists today, David, Dahlia, or Rob, or any of the great investor-friendly agents who are on Bigger Pockets. All you have to do is go to biggerpockets.com slash agent finder. Search for a market like San Diego, Washington, D.C., Tulsa, any other market.

Enter your investment criteria and pick agents that you want to connect with, all of whom are investor-friendly agents. Lastly, remember, if you do want to learn more about the current events, data, news that is impacting the real estate investing market. Make sure to check out Bigger Pocket's other podcasts called On the Market. You can find that on Apple or Spotify. And lastly, for David the gadfly green, David Meyer. And just so everyone knows, I had to look up.

I googled what gadfly means. And it means it's a fly that bites livestock, especially a horsefly, warble fly, or bot fly, or an annoying person, especially one who provokes others into action by criticism. I don't think David really meant that because he is neither of those things, but I just wanted to poke fun at him. So thank you all for listening. We'll see you next time. It seems like everybody got a haircut today.

All of you guys's hair is looking really good. Thank you. This is how I rolled out of bed. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K, copywriting is by Calicoe content, and editing is by Exodus Media.

If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.biggerpockets.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk. So use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. and remember, past performance is not indicative of future results.

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