BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 711: Is This the BIGGEST Multifamily Opportunity in 10 Years? w/Andrew Cushman and Matt Faircloth

Episode Date: January 8, 2023

Multifamily real estate investing was almost impossible to break into over the past few years. Even those that had been in the field for decades were finding it challenging to get offers accepted or deals underwritten. Investors were throwing in almost unbelievable amounts of non-refundable earnest money, going well over asking price and analyzing deals at lightning speed, which often led to mistakes, not more money. But the tables have turned, and now, thanks to high interest rates, the buyer is in the driving seat. And how could it be a multifamily episode without Andrew Cushman and Matt Faircloth? These two expert multifamily investors have been buying apartments for decades and helping others do the same! In this episode, Andrew and Matt break down what has gone on in the multifamily markets, why cap rates haven’t kept pace with interest rates, and what buyers can do now that sellers have lost most of their bargaining power. You’ll also get to hear their multifamily predictions for 2023, how far they expect prices to fall, and what you can do to start or scale your multifamily investing this year! Then, Andrew and Matt take questions from the BiggerPockets forums and live Q&As with new multifamily investors. These topics range from property classes explained to raising private capital from investors (who aren’t your mom) and the risks and rewards of investing in smaller markets. Whether you’re interested in duplexes, triplexes, or two-hundred-unit apartment complexes, Andrew and Matt have answers for you! In This Episode We Cover: The mortgage and cap rate battle and how the two are unbalanced in 2023 The multifamily buyer’s market and why now is the time to aggressively chase deals 2023 housing market predictions and what multifamily investors can expect  How to start, or scale, your multifamily real estate portfolio this year  Long-distance real estate investing and assessing a property market from afar How to raise money from private investors and expanding your network The hidden dangers behind investing in a small, tertiary markets And So Much More! Links from the Show Find an Investor-Friendly Real Estate Agent BiggerPockets Youtube Channel BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Pro Membership BiggerPockets Bookstore BiggerPockets Bootcamps BiggerPockets Podcast BiggerPockets Merch Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Learn About Real Estate, The Housing Market, and Money Management with The BiggerPockets Podcasts Get More Deals Done with The BiggerPockets Investing Tools Find a BiggerPockets Real Estate Meetup in Your Area Andrew's BiggerPockets Profile Andrew's LinkedIn Vantage Point Acquisitions Matt's BiggerPockets Profile Matt's Instagram DeRosa Group Paul Moore’s Article on Interest Rates and Cap Rates Books Mentioned in the Show: Long-Distance Real Estate Investing by David Greene Raising Private Capital by Matt Faircloth The Intention Journal by Brandon Turner Connect with Philip & Daniel: Philip's BiggerPockets Profile Philip's Instagram Philip's Website Daniel's BiggerPockets Profile Daniel's Twitter Click here to check the full show notes: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/real-estate-711 Interested in learning more about today’s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Check out our sponsor page! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show number 7-11. I feel like we're going to see opportunities. We haven't seen in 10 years, right? When I could look back at 2012, 2012, 2013, and 2014, my only regret is I didn't buy more. I didn't have the capability, right? My mom wrote my first check as a syndicator, and then it took a long time to get everybody else to join in. So I'm looking at this now as this is coming up, probably starting mid-20203, is going to be the time to scoice. up deals that otherwise were unobtainable for the last five, six, seven years. And for those listening

who the last three years have been frustrated because you can't get in the market because there's no deals out there. The deals are coming. And then also not to be morbid, but you're going to have a lot less competition. Welcome everybody to the Bigger Pockets podcast. My name is Matt Faircloth and I am the co-host of the Bigger Pockets podcast. And I want to bring in one of my besties, one of my friends, the host of the Bigger Pockets podcast. today, not really the host, but you and I stole the microphone, didn't we, Andrew? We stole the mic, and we are now running the Bigger Pockets podcast. Who knows what's going to come out of our mouse today, right? Yeah, you know, David went off to Mexico and left his link live,

and you and I are going to jump in and see what we can do. Oh, what could go wrong. It's great. But quick, Andrew, tell me how you are today. I am good. I am staying positive and testing negative. Can I steal that? Give me credit the first time, and the rest of the time it's yours. Okay, cool. If we're going to be stealing the microphone, do you promise me you'll have lots of awesome Andrew Cushman analogies and cool straight-faced humors and like David Green analogies as well we can use throughout the show? Yeah, I'll do my best. I'm a little nervous filling in for the green and I forgot to put on my tank top. So I'll channel them as best as I can. No way I'm filling those shoes, but I'm happy to hold his microphone for him just for a second here. Sounds like a good plan.

Andrew, before we get going, there is an awesome thing that happens at the beginning of every Bigger Pockets podcast. You and I know because you probably listen to 710 episodes of it, you and I both. So, let us get going with the quick tip. I'm actually going to go rogue on you and give you two, right? Since I'm not wearing my tank top, I'll have to make up. It's our microphone today, man. Give it. So first of all, we're going to talk about, we're going to reference an article that Paul Moore wrote for Bigger Pockets on the blog.

If you're listening and you haven't read that article, go back to November 15th and read it. It's going to give a lot more background on what we're talking about and then lots of other. important stuff for today's market. Second of all, some of the stuff we're going to talk about might sound a bit gloomy, but that's really not the case. We are, that's the farthest thing from the truth. We're going to talk about risks and how the markets are shifting and is our pricing going down. That's all stuff that should be exciting for you if you're getting started in 2023 or looking

to scale your business. So now is the time to be greedy when others are fearful. So don't let what we're talking about scare you off. Use it to get excited about diving into all the resources that bigger pockets has so that you can learn and scale and grow your business. Double the tip. There it is. Thank you so much, Andrew.

I appreciate that, man. Let's get into the market, man. Let's talk about the current market status. What do you think? You want to go? Yeah, let's do it. There's lots to talk about it. I'm in.

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Base lane is a financial technology company and not a bank. Banking services provided by Threadbank member FDIC. All right, Matt, welcome to 2023. We are in a rapidly changing market. It's funny, Paul Marr put out a great article back in November addressing some things that we're seeing now. What are your thoughts on out there? You know, I didn't get a chance to read the article yet. You and I are both friends with Paul Moore, and I've heard a lot of great things about the article.

I've actually seen some people referencing it. So I tell, and yes, absolutely, things are changing. It seems like daily as well. So would you get out of the article? Tell me about it. There's a lot in there. We could spend a whole hour on it. But I think the most important, if I were to condense it in a one sentence, is that interest rates are higher than cap rates.

And, you know, for those of listening, it's like, okay, well, so what? That's a big problem. And that's a huge problem. We haven't seen that in the last 10 years. I don't even, I don't, maybe even for multiple decades. The reason that's a problem is it creates negative leverage. So what it means is if you're buying, let's say, a million dollar 10 unit property and it produces a net operating income of $50,000 a year, right?

So a 5% that's a 5% cap rate, a 5% yield. And you go borrow money. at 6% in order to do that you are losing money by borrowing by borrowing to obtain that asset so let's let's pretend you bought it all cash and you're getting a 5% yield and then let's pretend you to make it simple you got a hundred percent financing instead at 6% your annual debt service is 60,000 but your yield is 50,000 you have a built-in operating loss just on your debt of $10,000 a year.

So that means we got to, that, that's a problem. If interest rates are higher than cap rates, it screws up the market big time. And just, you know, for the listeners who are like, well, hold on, slow down, Andrew, NOI cap rates, you're tossing these terms around. Cap rate stands for capitalization rate. It is basically the unlevered yield on a property. So I mentioned buying it all cash. A cap rate is you buy a million dollar property.

it produces a $50,000 net operating income, 50,000 divided by a million is 5%. The cap rate is 5%. Net operating income is basically kind of just what it sounds like. It's your gross revenue minus your operating expenses. And then that is what is left over to pay the debt. And so when the NOI is less than the debt, that creates a huge problem. So, you know, how does this resolve? A couple of things have to, you know, there's a handful of things that can resolve it.

Number one, interest rates would have to go back down. They peaked a couple of months ago at four and a quarter and then dropped 80 basis points. Who knows where they're going to go now? I left my crystal ball in my pocket and it went through the wash so it's permanently foggy. I'm not going to pretend that I can predict where interest rates are going to go. So interest rates could go back down. NOI could go up, right? If you can increase rent and increase that NOI, then you can overcome to some degree the fact that the cost.

of debt is higher or prices could come down. My personal thought, Matt, is that it's going to be a combination of all three of those things, but I would like to toss it to you and see where you think we're headed here in 2023. You know, I also put my crystal ball in the shop and I can't seem to get it out. They won't give it back to me. So what the future will hold, I don't know, but I'll tell you what investors like you and I can control. We can control an OI. we can control pushing revenue on properties.

That's one factor that's in our favor. I will say that what I, okay, this is like what I know is going to happen, I don't know, but what I think is probably something different, right? So what I think is going to happen is something like, you know, rates have gone up drastically, a lot more than a lot of people thought. Are they going to go up that at that rate of acceleration again? I don't think so. I think we maybe are getting towards the top of the ceiling.

I don't think they're going to come back down. And so I think that if rates stay up like this, Andrew, it's going to force cap rates to go up a little bit. And so cap rates are going to come up. Rates maybe creep down a little bit, but they're probably, it's still going to be in the five, six, seven range somewhere in there to borrow money, I think, for the foreseeable future. I just think that is what it is.

So that's what I predict is going to happen. And I think that on both sides, the buyers and sellers and investors, because you and I both work a lot with investors on limited partner investors are going to all three are going to have to get more realistic. And everybody's going to have to take a deep. breath and settle down and realize that this is no longer a seller puts a for-sale sign on the front of their property and they get 10 bids. This is likely not going to be the future of what we're going into. I think that sellers are going to have to get realistic. Buyers are going to get a

little more strength in their voice and what they're able to, what they can command from a seller. And thirdly, Andrew, I think investors are going to learn to get more patient. I can tell you that the scenario you gave on, you know, cap rates and cap rate and interest rates is all valid. But what the truth of the matter is, people likely don't buy a property either free and clear or 100% finance. What they do is they buy it with some sort of a equity check that gets left in there. And if they, if cap rates are lower than interest rates, as you said, there's no money left in the property.

And most importantly, there's no money left to go to the equity side, whether that's LP investors or folks writing a check out of their own pocket to go to the property. So the property is either not going to cash flow very much, talking like low single-digit rates of return, either for investors or for the owner-direct. And that means that the equity is going to need to be a little more patient. If you're buying a big value-add property that is going to cash for a little bit in the beginning and then make more money in the long term,

I believe the world of producing a 6 to 7% guaranteed, a.k.a. preferred rate of return for investors right under the gate when you buy a property may go away all completely or it may change drastically. Because if you're going to buy a property today, likely it's not going to produce any cash flow at all if a little bit, but certainly not enough to pay a six or seven percent preferred return. Yeah, you're actually right. And this is affecting all these changes and shifts are affecting different market participants in different ways, right? So, like, sellers that I, that I talk to, or, you know, Matt, you and I are both in different multifamily masterminds, and we either know or I've heard stories of sellers who,

they're having trouble making the mortgage payments because they had an adjustable rate loan that has gone from three and a half to seven and a half. And yes, some people have caps on it, meaning it hits a certain level and they don't, and doesn't go up anymore, but lots of others don't. and they have watched their mortgage payments double or even two and a half sometimes triple in the last six months. And that's creating financial stress for sellers. Also, on the flip side, sellers who don't have, aren't having trouble paying the mortgage or have fixed rate debt, it's slowing volume down because they're just sitting back going, well, I'm not going to sell in this market. I want to get the price I got in January of 2022.

and we're not no one's offering me that so i'm not going to sell my property you know it's kind of like the kid in the you know the kid in the in the at the playground who's just like that's it i'm taking my toys and i'm leaving right they're just they're out of the game they're going to sit there and wait and they're not motivated to sell because operations are still really good and then that that's another kind of weird aspect of this market is the distress out there it's financial it's not operations now some some select subsectors and some markets could see operational distress going forward, especially if we get into a real recession with real job losses.

But at the beginning of 2023, the distress is being caused by the financial markets, not operations. So as an investor evaluating potential acquisitions, that's a key thing to look into. Why is the property distressed? Is it because the market here is terrible? Or is because the owner made a mistake put the wrong kind of debt on there? And now they've got to get out of this. And it's an opportunity for you as a new investor. to get started by picking up a killer property in a killer location that otherwise would not have

traded if the debt markets hadn't shifted. So if you can't tell, this stuff is getting me excited because I feel like we're going to see opportunities. We haven't seen in 10 years, right? When I could look back at 2012, 2013 and 2014, my only regret is I didn't buy more. I didn't have the capability, right? My mom wrote my first check as a syndicator and then it took a long time to get everybody else to join in. So I'm looking at this now as this is coming up, probably starting mid-20203, is going to be the time to scoop up deals that otherwise were unobtainable for the last five, six, seven years.

And for those listening who the last three years have been frustrated because you can't get in the market because there's no deals out there. The deals are coming. And then also, not to be morbid, but you're going to have a lot less competition. I already know of sponsors who are closing up shop because their deals have imploded and the equity is gone and they're out of the business. The beauty of starting out now is you don't have that baggage. You can come in at a fresh bottom and part, you know, low point in the cycle, take advantage of these opportunities, not have 27 people bidding against you and build the foundation of a great business. the wealth is made in the downturns.

And five to seven years from now, anyone who accumulates properties the next two or three years is probably going to be sitting pretty. Love it. It's a great time to get started. It's a great time to be a new investor in this market. And it's a great time to be established as well if you made the right decisions coming into this place. So, well, I mean, so looking forward, Matt, I'm curious as to what you're seeing this year.

You know, to me, I think the Fed, they're going to at least pause, right? And I think just doing that will open up the market a little bit because right now, you know, when the Fed's raising rates 75 basis points every other month, no one knows how to underwrite. Like, you know, what's my exit cap going to be? What's my interest rate going to be? So at least when it pauses, everyone can kind of like take a breath and say, okay, what are the rules now?

What do I, you know, how do I underwrite? I think that's going to loosen up the market. Two, we already talked about there's going to be motivated sellers, people who can't make their mortgage payments, unfortunately. So that's going to bring some deals to the table. And by the way, those deals aren't going to go to the highest bidder. They're going to go to the buyer or the investor who can offer the most surety of clothes. So again, that's something else we're looking for is not paying the highest price, but being the most savvy buyer, that's what's going to get deals going forward. And that's another thing that's been really tough lately. So we talked to

about competition is going to drop. There's going to be more motivated sellers because people can't make the payments. We're unfortunately already seeing that. And then, you know, my guess is going to be we will probably see pricing off anywhere from 15 to 30 percent from the peak. And I would call the peak maybe January of 2022. So I'll give you a perfect example. We put in an offer on a property this week that when we first started talking to the seller

at the beginning of 2022, they wanted 220 a unit, and at the beginning of 2023, we're now talking 165 a unit. The property is still running really well, and it's in a great market, right? However, the pricing expectations have come down, and could they come down a little bit more? Yes, they could. Can any of us perfectly timed the bottom?

No, we can't. So the key is to go buy properties that are in, great locations and cash flow well so that five to seven years from now we look like stinking geniuses. So that's kind of my thought and my plan for 2023. Matt, do you disagree or would you? What would you, what would you add to that? Well, I'm not sure if I want to look like a stinking genius, you know, I mean, that's just a regular genius. Can I be a good smelling genius? You can be the stinking genius. Is that okay? You're right. All right, fine. Yeah. Okay, good. So I agree. I don't know if I agree with the 30 percent. And that's only because I think that a lot of properties out there

that are legacy holds that have been out there forever. A lot of multifamily's been held for generations by people. So I don't, I think that those that bought properties in the last, say, three to five years are going to be in a position they need to sell because of debt that's graduating or debt that's gone up or because they just can't, you know, refinance anymore or whatever it may be. But I don't think that it's going to be blood in the streets like it was in 2020s, in, you know, 2007, 2008. I don't correlate the two things.

I think what you're going to have is you're going to have sellers are going to need to get more realistic with their numbers. And I think that for the longest time, Andrew, there's been this seller's market. That's it. And when you go to buy a multifamily property, you got to like, it's like you're going to prom. You know, you got to get your best suit on. You got to put, do your hair and everything. You got to be, you know, wave your hands in the air to get the attention and everything like that from the, and it's you and 17 of your best friends bidding on a multifamily property, right?

I don't think, some buyers may get a little skittish and go away, but I think that the buyer, the buyer conversation between buyer and seller is going to become more give and take. We're looking at a property right now. Believe it or not, we're actually looking to buy a multifamily property right now, Andrew. We're looking at a deal. And for the first time that I've ever seen it in the last five years anyway, there's no concept called money hard day one. I'll explain what that is. Beautiful thing. It's going away. It is. It's going away because that never should have been a thing. Right. And that's, that is, again, you had said before, you get two things in real estate when you're making an offer. You get price or you get terms. Money Hard Day 1 is a term that gets negotiated in the purchase of real estate. What it means is if I'm buying a property and it's a million dollar 10 unit multifamily property or something like that, I may lay down, you know, say 50K is my earnest money deposit. And if they're going to go get a mortgage or beyond that or whatever, so I'm going to bring more to closing. but that earnest money deposit is something that goes along with the contract that shows, I'm serious and here's my money. And if I do something wrong that's outside of this contract, the seller may have the right under certain terms to claim that money, likely through a court action, but they may have the right to claim that money. Money hard day, and this happens in small real estate transactions and, you know, buying a

three-bedroom two bath, you might write a check for $5,000 as your earnest money deposit or something like that. you know, bigger multifamily properties have bigger numbers that go for earnest money deposit. What money hard day one means is that a certain percent of that money and sometimes in more aggressive markets, all of it, is nonrefundable the day you sign the contract. Here's the problem with that, Andrew. You don't know what you're getting yourself into. And that's why there's a concept called due diligence. When I buy, like Andrews got a 10 unit department building or 30 unit or a 300 unit for sale, the buyer needs to have time to get their

head around this thing to make sure that what I'm buying is what the seller told me it is. Meaning like seller says, nope, my roofs are in good shape. All my sewer lines are in good shape. All my tenants are paying their rent and there's only this much vacancy or whatever it is. All the factors of the seller states the buyer should have a period of time to go and validate those things. It's called due diligence and the buyer should have the right to confirm. What money hard day one means is that say it's a $50,000 deposit,

10k of that or more is, oh, you found that my sewer lines were crushed or that my roof was leaking or that my vacancies was higher as than I said it was. So sorry, I get to keep that money hard, right? And it was there in more aggressive buyer markets to hold the buyer, I'm sorry, more aggressive seller market, to hold that seller to, that seller and buyer to closing and to make the transaction happen. but as we're normally not the playing field, it was never a fair thing to begin with. Do you agree, Andrew? It never should have been in the contract to begin with,

but it's just been the way the game was played, so we had to do it begrudgeoningly. But now I believe it's going to go away, personally. It's starting to, and for everybody listening, rejoice that the risk of hard money should hopefully not be something that you have to worry about anymore. And, you know, I love all of what you said, Matt. and something else I would add for those who are starting to evaluate properties,

and this is, again, not something we had to worry about as much in the previous 10 years, but look at your debt service coverage ratio. And Matt, I'm going to push back on you just a little, because I think this, unless rates change dramatically, I think this is one of the things that's going to lead to probably a temporary decline in prices, is that when the cost of debt goes from, let's say, three and a half to six or six and a half percent, the income coming off that property is no longer there to make the mortgage payment. And so the lender is going to say, well, at three percent, at three and a half percent,

I could have given you a million dollar loan. But at six and a half percent, I can only give you $550,000. Sorry, here's what it is. And so then as a buyer, you go to the seller, say, well, look, my lender's only, give me 550, I'm only going to offer you 700 instead of a million. So I think that is going to be a piece of what's going to lead to some decline and select properties in markets. Again, people who have had generational properties with low levers, they're not going to accept

that. They're just going to hold on. But there's going to be some motivated people that have to sell. And speaking of generational properties, Matt, I want everyone listening, keep in mind, this is a long game. You know, it's been a really, really popular business model, especially with syndicators for the last five years to do the whole two to three year, buy it, do a quick fix up, flip it out and sell it in a short period of time, two to three years. That business model isn't on dead, isn't dead, but I'd say it's going into hibernation for the short term. That is not going to be anywhere near as easy as it was in a rapidly rising market. when we're looking at properties now, we're looking at 5, 7, 10-year hold times.

And I would add on top of that, if you're buying for your own portfolio and you're going to hold for 15 or 20 years, what's happening today, you're not even going to remember it when you get 15 to 20 years down the road. That property is me worth a whole lot more than it is today. And you're going to be glad that you bought it, especially if you buy the right property in the right location, like good demographics, some of the things we've talked about in previous episodes. And then Matt, just to clarify, you're talking about hard money. You're referring to the non-refundable deposits, right? So the minute you put that in the escrow, even if you find out that the seller was lying to you,

the roof's bad and half the place is vacant, they get to keep your deposit, right? They can try to, yeah. And remember, it's a court action that they don't, the money does, actually, the check actually doesn't get written to them. It goes to a third-party escrow. and that escrow company can't release it without both parties' permissions. And if both party don't get permission, then it's got to go through court action. So it's not as simple as it sounds.

But yes, in the contract, it will say that that money becomes the property of the seller. If for any reason, the buyer decides that they don't want to do the deal in that. But just I think that things sway back towards the middle. And I think that that's what I believe the pendulum is going to swing towards. And you're right about properties being debt yield restricted where, you know, used to be able to borrow 80% loan to value for multifamily. You did. Even 75, 80% loan to value if you wanted to. Now the best you're going to get because rates are higher is 55, 60, 65% loan to value.

That means you've got to raise more equity. And that means that to go into your deal. And that means you can borrow less, which is maybe a little conservative way to look at it. But if your equity investors are looking for a six or seven. percent rate of return on a deal that's selling at a four and a half percent capitalization rate, guess what? You can't give them that rate of return. It's just the money, just the numbers aren't there to pay a rate of return on properties. We've looked at deals that are producing like one to two percent cash on cash return for us. And me and the investors have to have to split that, right?

We have to carve that up from there. There's just not enough yield to pay investors a reasonable rate of return. So I think that, that, you know, as I said before, that everybody's getting more guys got to get more reasonable buyers sellers and uh and our investors so all right so matt you're you know you mentioned you're you're out making offers you're in the thick of it you're not on the sidelines what are you doing that the rest of us and that everybody listening can can duplicate or learn or learn from or do to prepare to to either start or scale or start either start from scratch or start scaling in 2023 well the worst thing that somebody could do right now andrew is sit on their hands and wait for things to change, right?

Yeah, great. I have young kids as you do, and I read them, oh, the places you'll go sometimes. And that book talks about a place called the waiting place, where you're waiting on a phone to ring, waiting on a train to come, waiting on this, waiting on that. Life continues to pass you by if you wait. Those that want to make things happen are going to get ahead of the curve and get out there and maintain relationships with brokers.

So don't just wait for prices to drop before you start calling brokers. What you can do now is maintain. is to initiate, build, or even just maintain broker relationships. Call brokers up. Hey, I'm Joe, I'm Jane. I'm looking to buy and I'm waiting on the right deal and this is what I'm looking for, whatever it is. Obviously, don't tell me waiting on the market to crash before you buy a deal.

They're not going to want to hear that, you know, but you can use the time now to build and deepen relationships with brokers and also with investors. Stay in communication with your investors. Your investors are going to forget about you if you don't communicate with them on a regular basis. Even if you don't have a deal, that's okay. Call them, check in. Call them and wish them to hop you holidays. Send them a holiday card. Send them a newsletter as we do. Stay in regular communication with people so that know that you're there and that when a good deal comes up from that broker that you've maintained or built relationship with, you've got an investor pool that's there

to hop in. The last thing you want to do is to have to rebuild your business when the great deal that Andrew and I are talking about shows up in three or four months. You don't have to rebuild or restart your airplane engine to get it off the ground again. You want to be rip-roaring and ready to go with investors lined up, with debt that you've been maintaining a relationship with in position, and with brokers that are willing to give you first look at those great deals when they show up. Yeah, and I mean, that's a whole other episode that we could spend diving into that. And, you know, for everyone listening, I want to reiterate what Matt said about not sit around and waiting. Waiting and sitting on the fence does nothing for you but hurt your crotch.

I mean, now is the time to streamline your systems, build your team, add investors. I mean, that's what we are doing in our business. It's slow right now. So we're going back through, we're cleaning up simple things like cleaning up our file systems. So our team spends less time going, wait, wait, where'd that document go? We're getting ready to hire another person, add to the team. Like, wait, you're hiring in a downturn? Yes, now is the time to find the best people and get them trained.

so when the deals come, you're ready to jump on them, like Matt said. And we're still out there looking at a lot of deals. And we're talking with new lenders. We're looking at new markets. And we're evaluating new, well, not new, but creative or different ways to buy properties. Burr is coming back, right? When I started this, in 2012 or 2011, we'd buy properties all cash. We'd get them running great, and then we'd refinance it and give investors 100% of their money,

back. The last five years, we're lucky to give investors 25% of their money back at refinance because we had to pay so much in the beginning. In this market, one way to eliminate the interest rate risk is to go, you know, find a 10 unit for $500,000, raise $700,000, buy it all cash, fix it up, and then two or three years from now, when the debt markets are hopefully improved, refinance it, give your investors all their money back, and now you've got an asset that you can just sit there in cash flow with basically no risk. those kind of opportunities are coming back. We're also looking at seller financing.

That's coming back. Assumptions are coming back. Longer term holds. There's no such thing as a bad market, just bad strategies. So think beyond the quick three-year, I'm going to buy this, fix it, and sell it. Look at alternate ways to buy, alternate ways to finance and longer hold times, and that can make for great deals to be found. And that's kind of a quick version of what we're doing in 2023. I love that.

we're hiring to and we are cautiously making bids on deals and that that makes sense to us. And I'm, you know, kind of having a straight face offer somebody 80% of what they're asking. And it is what it is. And, you know, I find the properties are still in the market. You know, there's one that the guy was asking $125,000 a unit on. And he laughed at us when we offered him $115. And then they came back to us. He said, hey, is that $115 number still good?

And we looked at it and guess what? Rates had gone up a little bit since then. So we're now talking to a manager at $105. And so things are, there are still deals to be made. There are still conversations to be had in that. And one more thing that we're doing on top of everything, Andrew said, we're doing a lot of that as well. And I love the Burr's back stuff. That's awesome.

The one thing we're doing as well. And I know we're talking multifamily today, Andrew, but guess what? There are actually other real estate properties you can buy. They're, believe it or not, Andrew, not multifamily apartment buildings. And so we are, there are other kinds of real estate. So we're looking at diversification for us and our investors in other asset classes, such as flex industrial. Believe it or not, we're looking at hotels and not like, like, you know, swanky, bougie, you know, boutique hotels. I'm talking about like a courtyard marriott, like I'm standing right now, those kinds of things.

We're looking at that. We're looking at unanchored retail. Not that we want to leave multifamily. Multi-family is where my heart and soul is. but I also want to be able to offer things to our investors that make fiscal sense. And while I'm waiting a bit for multifamily to start making more fiscal sense, we're going to keep making bids, but we're also going to be looking at other asset classes to diversify a bit so that our investors can diversify so that we can diversify too.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and I see a lot of operators doing that, and especially if you can kind of dovetail things the other. like a lot of times self-storage right next to a multifamily, there's a lot of cross-pollination there that can work really well. And we've actually acquired apartment complexes that had some self-storage on site, and that's a whole other revenue stream. And so if you've got that self-storage skill or tool in your tool belt, and there's ways to bring those two things together, and like you said, Matt, diversify a bit.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And not that multifamily is not the core in that, but it doesn't have to be the end. It doesn't have to be the everything. If you own a large or complex rental property, congrats. And I'm also sorry. One day you're building a portfolio. The next, you're reconciling six accounts, five states, four LLCs, three partners,

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of these studies with $500 million in total depreciation identified. Head to Costsegregationguise.com slash BP to get a free proposal and see your potential tax savings. All right, Matt, well, that was a fun market discussion. I always love diving into that, especially with you. So, you know, I want to throw out a couple of my goals for 2023, and then I'd love to hear what yours are, and then maybe we can see if we can help out some listeners and talk about some of theirs.

So I know what I'm looking to do, 2023, is hopefully make four to eight significant acquisitions. And, you know, that's market dependent. They have to be great deals. But assuming the market shifts, like we talked about, we're looking to pick up hopefully four to eight. We're also looking to add a team member or two because if we add that many deals, we're going to need more bandwidth to do a good job asset managing them.

And then we're going to, we're looking to actually expand markets. You know, right now we're in Georgia. and North Florida. And whenever people ask me, where do you invest? I say Georgia, North Florida, and the Carolinas, but we currently don't own anything in the Carolinas. So we're going to spend, we've sold everything we had in Texas a couple of years ago. We're going to refocus that energy on the Carolinas and try to expand into markets

and put some of the principles that we talked about into play and execute on those. So curious, Matt, are you similar or what are you up to? Yeah. Well, just as you said, we're hiring, you know, we want to hire two key, this year, we're going to be hiring a marketing director whose job is to get us eyeballs and get us attention and do super creative stuff and whatnot on online socials and things like that. Also, we are lucky enough to own a few multifamily properties in North Carolina, so we want to expand there as you do as well. So come on and be my neighbor. It's great. The water's fine.

Come on in. We also want to hire a asset manager in North Carolina that can be regionally focused in the state. They can, you know, go to the properties we have on a regular basis. And Make sure business plans being upheld in that. We also, it's great to have acquisition in capital goals and marketing goals. But above all else, we want to take what we have performing and keep it performing and tighten up. And as the market changes and things like that, it becomes more important to make sure the boats you have are floating properly.

And so we are installing KPI programs and performance metrics and things like that into what we own already. which is already thousands of units of multifamily, but we'll keep that running well, and it's important, whether you own thousands of units multifamily or you own one property, it is very important to keep what you have running well.

Too many times people focus on acquisitions, goals, and you and I just talked about that too, so we're just in the same boat. But you should also talk about setting goals, about performance of what you currently have. And so we're going to be, you know, setting performance metrics and goals for our current portfolio,

just to keep it running healthy, because that's really what matters the most, is we already own, not what you're going to buy, but we own already. You know, that's my mantra, and so thanks for, I actually forgot to mention that. So that's what we're doing while things are slow. We are getting better at implementing EOS. We're becoming better asset managers. We're putting those systems in place. We're doing additional training for everybody involved.

And, you know, as you said, making sure that the boats you already have are in a really, really good shape. Yeah. EOS traction, quick plug, you and I are both raving fans of that book. And that it's important for any for small and large size businesses as well. So I'm going to throw one more thing out about goals. By the way, Andrew, if someone just happens to be listening to this episode and it's not January, and it's like, oh, okay, it's not New Year's so I don't have to set goals, right? Guess what? There's actually not a rule. There's not a law that says that you can only set goals on January 1st, right? You're actually. you'll have to set a goal anytime. You can set a goal in December 31st, December 1st, or on your birthday, whatever it is. Any time is a good time to make a goal or to set a hurdle for yourself. You know, go pick up Brandon Turner's 90-day intention journal and use tools like that to help you meet that goal over a 90-day program whenever you decide you want to plant that flag and make it. You don't have to say, oh, I can't set a goal today because it's not New Year's yet. You don't have to do that. I thought once you hit February 2nd and it was Groundhog Day, you were doomed to just repeat that year

and for the rest of the year. And then you couldn't set any new goals. Right. If you haven't taken real traction on your goals by February 2nd by Groundhog's Day, then you've got to be like Bull Murray and live that day over and over again. That's the rule, right? So Andrew, listen, talking about mine and your goals, we need to help people achieve what they're looking to manifest for their goals as well. So lots of folks have pumped in tons of questions on Multi-Family on the awesome Bigger Pockets Forum. Quick plug, by the way, quick tip, put questions in the Bigger Pockets Forum because you never know where those questions are going to go, including right here on the Bigger Pockets podcast. So there are awesome questions here

on the Bigger Pockets forums that I'd like to take a minute and go through with you. Are you down? Are you ready? Oh, I love answering questions. Let's do it. All right. Let's speed around some of these. Ready? Let's go. I'm going to pull a couple of questions, and if you haven't gone in there and post the questions yourself, please go do that. Let's see. We're going to start with this one right here. question is how do I confidently assess property class from out of state and how do I align my business strategy to the property class quick definition when somebody is talking about property

class they're often referring to A B C and D A is kind of the nice new shiny stuff B is kind of more your working class people who can either rent or buy but are choosing to rent C tends to be someone who might be a renter for life that They can't afford to do anything but rent. They're employed. They have good jobs, but they're kind of in that workforce housing. And then D is often kind of referred to as if you're going to be collecting rent in person, you might want to pack heat to do that, right?

So it tends to be kind of the higher crime, much rougher, much older property. So that's what they're asking about when they talk about class. How do you assess that from out of state and how do you align your business strategy with it? Well, the first thing is go read, day, Green's long-distance real estate investing. It is geared towards single-family investment businesses. However, the same principles apply to multifamily in terms of how to operate a long-distance real estate business, building teams, selecting markets, doing due diligence, all of those kind of things. Now, when I am looking at a new market or even a sub-market that I haven't owned,

in there's a long checklist of things that that that I go through to do this very thing to figure out well what class property is it and what kind of what's the kind of the class of the neighborhood so one of the main things that that that that I check is the median income right higher median income is going to lend itself to more A and B class properties lower median income is going to be more C or possibly D and you know you might ask well Andrew what's the cutoff that's going to vary depending on what your state what state you're in Some parts of California, $120,000 a year is poverty level. In Georgia, that's an A-class neighborhood.

So you need to kind of look at all the areas around your property, get a sense of what the spectrum is. And if you're on the high end of the spectrum, you're probably A-B. If you're on the low end of the spectrum, you're probably C&D. Also, look at year of construction. If it's built in 2000 or newer, it's probably B or A. If it's built 1980 to 2000, that's probably solid B. If it's 1960 to 1980, you're probably looking at a C-class property. And if it's older than that, could be C or D depending on the neighborhood.

Look at relative rent levels. We talked about earlier, you know, if you're looking at a suburb of Atlanta, for example, in the median income ranges from 40,000 to 75,000, you're going to see a similar pattern with rent. If you look at all of the apartments in that market, you'll see, well, some two bedrooms are renting for 800, and other two bedrooms are renting for 1,600 or 1,800. Well, odds are the ones at the bottom of that spectrum that are renting for 800, that's probably your Class C property. And then if you look the property up and it's, oh, it's built in 1975, oh, okay, that's another data point, probably a C class property. then you're going to look at the amenities. If it doesn't have a pool, if it doesn't have a playground,

if it doesn't have a dog park, that's probably C or B, because most A class properties are going to have fitness centers and grilling stations and pools and are going to be highly amenitized. So the more amenities, the more likely it's class A, the less amenities you're getting down the spectrum, B, C, possibly D. I would also evaluate the neighbors. So if you look at your property and then you jump into Google Street View and you do your little Google, you know, take the yellow man and drive around

and you see, you know, brand new retail or a nice new sprouts or Whole Foods or Kroger, you're probably in a B or an A neighborhood. If you see old kind of run down, you know, strip mall centers with a cigar shop and a tattoo parlor and eye, parlor and eyebrow threading and all this fun stuff, that's probably Class C. So again, that's another data point. And that's, you know, there's not, when you're trying to figure out is this class A, is this class B, is this class C? One of the frustrating things about it, especially as a new investor, is you can't turn to page 365 of a book and figure out, oh, here's what it is, right? It's a spectrum.

It's a little bit vague. And so what I'm trying to do is give you the data points that we use to figure that out. And then finally, talk to other property managers and lenders and other people who know that market and they can give you a tremendous amount of insight. The best thing, of course, is to hop on a plane or get in the car and go drive that market yourself. You know, it's amazing what you can gain with the internet in long distance these days. It's so different than it was 10 years ago, but nothing beats being there in person. So if you're going to invest in a market, make sure you at least get out there once so you have a real good feel of it. So that's kind of the short

version of what I would do. Matt, you got anything else that you would add on top of that? Andrew, every time that you answer a question before me, I find myself saying, I agree with Andrew, because everything you said was so thorough, right? I really agree. I mean, honestly, and I love the, I'm like, do I have cigar shop or a tattoo parlor and inner room near any of my properties? I may. But what I'll say this on top of all that is that you need to, you, the listener, need to decide which angle of attack you want to get yourself into. There is more money to be made ever, but you get to have the thick skin to do it, is to buy underperforming, really, really poorly run, D-class property,

where Andrew said you might have to wear a sidearm to go collect rent and turn that into a C or a B-class property. Not everyone has the skin for that. Not everyone wants to take the risk, enormous, enormous 10 pounds of risk that it would take to take down a property like that. So if you do not have the chops and the business plan and the team to do a D to a B or a D to a C conversion, then that's not the right business plan for you. Everything Andrew said is correct in identifying property classes and determining neighborhoods. But you as the investor then need to figure out which business plan works for you.

Do you want to set it and forget it? Maybe make a lot less cash flow. That could be Class A or Class B for you. Maybe there's small little tweaks in the business plan you can do over the years to make the property, make more. more money and hold it for a real long period of time. So maybe higher class properties are the right fit for you. It really just has to do with what risk factors you're willing to take on and the team that you can bring to the table. Philip Hernandez, welcome to the Bigger Pockets podcast. How are you doing, sir? I'm doing well. I am super stoked to be here. Yeah, thank you so much,

Andrew. You're part of the, you are part of the inaugural group of the Bigger Pockets mentee program. and you're here with a few questions that hopefully we can help out with today. Is that correct? Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, no, super stoked. And yeah, thank you guys so much for your time. So as I've been reaching out to brokers and developing relationships with different brokers in markets that I have a good sense of, you know, how things should look, I have had a couple times those same brokers send me deals in smaller, cities in MSAs that I like tertiary markets with less than 50,000 people and I don't have any presence there. I don't have any connections. I don't really know anybody there.

But when I run the numbers, it works. The deal works. But I'm also like, okay, I have no idea what I don't know. So what would a deal have to look like for you to invest in a tertiary market where you don't necessarily have a presence. And how would you mitigate the risk of taking an opportunity like that? And yeah, let's assume like everything looks good about it. People are moving there.

There's a diverse jobs. The property's in decent condition. Yeah. First off, tell me about this market because I want to know where it is. So, you know, we could do a whole podcast on this. I'll try to just hit bullet point real level, a real high level. Number one, I have passed on. many opportunities like that because of the challenges of small markets.

So keep that in mind. One good asset and property management is where the money is really made, and that is one of the biggest challenges that you have in those small markets. And some of these challenges are why those properties look so good on paper, right? Because the prices are lower because of the challenges that are inherent with those types of properties in those markets. So not only are you going to have more trouble getting good management, you're also going to have trouble getting contractors and vendors and staff and all of those kind of things. But your question wasn't, hey, Andrew, what are the problems I'm going to have?

It was how do I fix that, right? So number one, like I said, in many cases, I just pass, even if it looks great on paper because sometimes the juice just isn't worth the squeeze. Second of all, if I am considering doing it, I might say, well, who can I partner with that solves these problems. Is there somebody else I can partner with that already has a presence in this market that knows the market can just move this property into their current portfolio and manage it better than anybody else there out there. If you can do that, that can turn a weakness into a tactical advantage. I have seen people do that very thing. Go into markets that are

fragmented and that they don't have a presence in, find someone who is just local and knows that market inside and out, partner with them, and all of a sudden they've got an advantage that just no one else has. And then another question that I would ask is how is the, how is the current owner managing it? And if they're doing it well, try to copy what they're doing. If they're not doing it well, go look at all the other properties in town, find the, find the ones that are the most well run and either try to hire those people that maybe it's the same management company or contact the owners and say, hey, can I partner with you? Maybe there's an opportunity there. So find some, you know, that would probably be the biggest thing I'd recommend is find some local

connection, partner, or advantage to help mitigate those risks. And then that return might actually have a higher chance of actually coming true. So yet again, everything that Andrew said, I agree with. But, and to expand on that, the, when my company, Dorosa invest in a market, and this is why I wouldn't do the deal you're talking about to fill up. So the short answer is, no, wouldn't do that deal. because we invest in markets first. And that's for everything, as you said, labor, access to everything from the contractor that's going to turn units over and upgrade them for me to the workforce that's going to live in the property, you know, access to jobs, those kinds of things, to the property

manager themselves. You know, you don't want them commuting an hour to your property from where they personally live to your property. You want them to live in a reasonable size metro that there's, you know, middle income housing for them to live in, that they can come to your property to work, to work for your property as well, right? So for those reasons, I wouldn't do the deal. And above all else, when we invest in markets, it's market first.

And the reason for that is, is so that I can buy not one, not two, three properties, three multifamilies in a market that we can expand. I mean, our goal is to get to at least 1,000 units in every market. And it doesn't have to be your goal, but you should never look at a deal and say, I want to do that one deal in this market. If you can't see yourself doing at least another 10 deals in that market, if there's just not the inventory to do 10 more deals, or if you don't, if you're not sure if you believe in the market, that much to do to invest 10 more times in the market, I wouldn't do the deal. And what investing 10 times in that market does for you is that access is everything that Andrew talked about. You get the best access to labor.

You can really sway the market that way. You can control, you can really control the market a bit and direct what rents and amenities should look. look like what really awesome housing should look like in that market if you're a if you're a large owner if you're not willing to do that then you're going to be on the peripheral and you're never going to be able to really control it or negotiate great labor contracts with folks do it do the work for you or to really access full exposure to what that market can yield for you if you're only willing to you know go in a little bit so to everything you said does not get me excited about the deal that you have it's just hey this

deal looks go on paper it's a market I know nothing about. This is what I heard. This deal looks good on paper. It's a market I know nothing about. I don't know anybody there. It's kind of out in the middle of nowhere kind of thing. I'm saying that. You didn't say that. But if it's close to a big market, then maybe look at the big market and look at this tertiary as kind of part of a bigger picture you want to paint for yourself. So that's my short answer. Cold water on you on you is no, I probably would not do that deal. No, that's all good. Any shiny objects that I can take off of my radar will, I think, help my journey in the long run.

Feels like a shiny object to me. And I'd like to quickly reiterate two things. Number one, like I said in being most of those, I pass on. And then number two, I really like what Matt said for everybody listening. If you're going to do that, if it's a one-off deal, probably pass. But if you can do five, six, seven, ten and grow it, you can turn that into an advantage. So, Philip, we appreciate you coming on real quick. And then, you know, also just asking questions in front of a quarter million people audience

take some touch bus, so we appreciate that. Other than storming your classroom, if people want to get in touch with you, how do they do that? So on Instagram, it's the underscore educated underscore investor. And then I have a website, www. Educatedinvest.com. Thanks for that shout out, Andrew. Appreciate that. I like it.

Good stuff, man. Well, you're going to do well. I think we're hearing a lot more from you here in the near future. Awesome. Thank you. Andrew, we got another. Another question lined up here. I want to bring in, I got Danny.

Danny's a potta. Danny, welcome to the Bigger Pockets podcast, man. How are you today? I'm doing excellent. Thank you for having me on. You are, you are quite welcome. What is on your mind? How can Andrew and I brighten your day a bit?

What is your real estate question you want to bring for Andrew and I to answer and for the masses to hear our thoughts on? Yeah, I had enough thought around raising money. So I've had some success raising some friends and family, private money. I wanted to get your thoughts on what are the pros and cons, you know, I guess I can, going to the next steps, I either go and I kind of tap out all of my friends and family or do I go and kind of broaden into, you know, more, less familiar folks. So I wanted to get your thoughts around and how do you expand that? Danny's passing a hat around at Thanksgiving dinner, right? You know, okay, pass the turkey and then also pass your checkbook.

Go partner. Yeah, Philip. at the end of the day, Danny, most investors, I know I did, and I know, I believe Andrew, you'd be able say the same, started with friends and family as their investors. And the reason why you do that is because people that are friends and family like and trust you because you're you. You're Danny and you're awesome and they know that. Not because you're Danny the awesome real estate investor, but because you're their son and they love you and because you're their brother or they trust you because you're you, not because you've developed this phenomenal real estate track record,

whether you have or not, right? So most real estate investors should and do start with friends and family as their investor base. And I highly recognize, and if it gives you the hebie-G-bees talking to friends and family, I'm talking to listeners, not you, Danny, but if it gives folks the heb-jeeb is talking to their family members, in my book Raising Private Capital, I talk a bit about how to overcome personal objections you may have internally and objections that friends and family may have with you as well. Bottom line, treat them like invest. whether they're your friends and family or not. Don't give them special treatment or, oh, it's okay, we don't need to put this in writing. I'll just take your check. No, give them every rights and benefit, including a full documentation that you would, anybody else. Everyone needs to expand beyond friends and family. If you're going to grow, Danny, you need to go beyond that. The way that I did it was to go to friends and family and then start asking them for referrals. Like, hey, who else do you know, Uncle Charlie? Who else do you? you know person I went to high school with, you who, uh, that may want to invest with me or may

want to consider doing, you know, what I do as, as a passive investment vehicle. That's how I grew. And then once you've done that, then you can expand a tier three, which is, you know, social media, picking up the big megaphone, talking into it about what you're up to and attracting more and more folks. But I, it sounds like, Danny, what you're, you've, you've achieved a certain level of success with friends and family capital. Awesome. I would, I would go next level. start asking those folks that are happy for referrals to other folks that wanted that they think may be happy to working with you. Well, that was, that was fantastic. I can't really add a whole lot to that. Matt, you should write a book about money raising or something. And Danny, when he does,

you should go order it and read it. You know, maybe another tip is raise money from pessimists because they don't expect it back. But, you know, beyond that, you know, I did the same thing. My first check as a syndicator was from my mom, right? And so I got to shout out to mom for, for, you know, believing in her son. And like Matt, Matt laid it out beautifully. You do that first. Maybe, maybe skip the uncle that if it, you know, he's going to bug the heck out of you at Thanksgiving, or make life miserable if it doesn't go perfectly. But other than that, friends and family me the place to start and then yeah ask for referrals and then even beyond referrals it is it's it's really tough for LP investors to to jump in to be the first guy to jump into the pool with you but if

you've already got eight or ten people at your party then you don't have to go tell everybody else that it's your family you can just say hey I've already got these eight investors where 70% of the way there it's much going to be much easier to get people you don't know or that don't know you as well to come in for that last 30%. So exactly what Matt said, start with friends and family, then go to referrals, then use that as a base to reach out to people that you don't already have that relationship with. I guess I shouldn't also tout that my mom is my biggest investor, right? Hey, you know what? It's a great thing. That's a good thing. You shouldn't discount that, man. I go telling people all the time. And by the way, my mama is one of my first investors as well,

by the way. And I tell people that because it is a testament to your belief in your business, Danny. All joking aside, my mother is invested in my business. You should tell people that. Like, I got my mama's money, you know, not just somebody else's mom's money. I got my own mother's money is in my business. And that's how much I believe in what I do, that I'm willing to put my mother's livelihood, my mother's future well-being, her wealth goals into what I do. I tell people that all the time because it's something that, you know, not to like get emotional about it, but I'm proud of that. I'm that I can take a bit of ownership of my mother's financial future through what I do. Matt, that's beautiful. I tell our investors this. I tell them, I say, look, I can't screw this up

because I would have to get a new family and new friends because they're all in this and I'd have to go out. Like, yeah, I can't afford to do that. Yeah. I'm Control Altiletan at that point, right? Danny, your thoughts, man. I hope this has been to value any final thoughts before we let you go. I know. That was awesome. Thank you for your insights there. And I'm glad I was able to make you a little emotional during the podcast. Danny, been awesome having you here, man. Listen, you've delivered a lot of value today and your questions and your thoughts. Please tell those listening how they can get hold of you. They'd like to hear more about what you're up to. Sure. I think the easiest way to get hold of me is Bigger Pockets. So Daniel Zapata is my illegal name, bigger pockets. Also, I have somewhat of a Twitter

presence, D-Zapata, my first initial last name on Twitter. And that's Z-A-P-A-T-A. I will not ask what your illegal name is. That's your legal name only. So if you guys are going to reach out to Danny and find out what is illegal name is, you can do that now. Good being with us today, Danny. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Take care, man. All right. Andrew, if people are living under Iraq and they have no idea how to get a hold of the Andrew Cushman, how would they reach out to you to find out more about you as a person, a real estate investor, a visitor of Antarctica, all those kinds of things. How would they find out more about that? Best way, connect with me on Bigger Pockets. You can also connect on LinkedIn or

just Google Vantage Point Acquisitions. Our website is vpacq.com, and there's a contact us form on there that comes to my inbox. And folks can find me on our website for my company, DeRosa Group. That is D-E-R-O-S-A group, derosa group.com. They can get a hold of me and anybody on my team there to hear all kinds of cool stuff about what I'm up to at derosa group.com or follow me on on Instagram at the Matt Faircloth. All right. All right, folks. This is Matt Faircloth. with my host, Anarchica Andrew, and ask him more what that means, signing on. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate Podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other

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