BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 73: Investing in Rental Properties When Your Local Area is Too Expensive With Mehran Kamari

Episode Date: June 5, 2014

Today on the BiggerPockets Podcast we are excited to welcome back a repeat guest coming to us from The Los Angeles area! We first met Mehran Kamari  in the newbie podcast back on show 025, where he took us through the process of his first out-of-state deal, and… well, a lot has happened since then! Since his last appearance, Mehran’s business has blown up – just completing the purchase of his 10th property! In today’s show, Mehran teaches us how to successfully invest out-of-state when your local market is too expensive. He goes into detail on how to use BiggerPockets to find out-of-state partners, what due diligence you need to do, who you need on your team, how to overcome fear and much, much more! If you are in a market where the numbers just don’t seem to work, then this Podcast is for you! In This Show, We Cover: How to use real estate to quit your job, the smart way! How Mehran invests in real estate from 2000 miles away How to use BiggerPockets to invest in markets you are unfamiliar with  Using tools such as Google Maps and Google Docs for real estate Joshua Dorkin used to be an actor! The importance of mindset and integrity Leverage is a tool! Making sure you vet out-of-state property management companies the right way! What’s involved in out-of-state due diligence and much, much more! Links Mentioned BP Podcast 029: Using Peer-to-Peer Lending to Finance Deals, Cash Flow, and Fix and Hold Investing with Dawn Anastasi BP Podcast 063: Automating Your Investing, Long Distance Rehabs and Spec Building with J Scott HipChat.com Real Estate Rewind [A BiggerPockets Community Book] Google Map View of Detroit back in 2008 Books Mentioned in the Show How I Turned $1,000 into a Million in Real Estate in My Spare Time by William Nickerson Success Mastery Academy by Brain Tracey Tweetable Topics “To be honest I wouldn’t invest out of state unless I had a partner with boots on the ground.” (Tweet This!) “You are the average of the 5 people that you spent the most time with.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Mehran Mehran’s BiggerPockets Profile Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast. Show 73. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dork and host to the Bigger Pockets podcast.

here with my co-host, Mr. Brandon Turner. What up, Brandon? Hey, Josh. It is good to be back home again. I was out on the road the last week. Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah, you were cruising, man. You want to hear a crazy story? I never even told you this story, I don't think. Oh, I sent you a picture. Anyways, you with like the moose. The wolf. The wolf. Oh, yeah. Yeah. All right. So, so real quick, everyone. So I went to this place called Bear Country USA. It's in the Black Hills of South Dakota. And it's like a drive-through zoo kind of. There's like hundreds of bears that just won't walk around. Anyway, there's a wolf that was in there as well.

And we're driving through, you know, tons of cars is driving through. But my dog was with me and he was in the car. And the wolf smelled out my dog. And then tracked us and circled our vehicle for like an hour and a half, the entire drive-through the place. And like, started like jumping on the car. And it was probably the coolest experience of my life, seeing this gigantic wolf. So I'm going to put a video actually. I think I have a video.

I'll put a video on the show notes page of this wolf, like, jumping on the car. and yeah, it's pretty cool. So anyway, sounds like fun to me. Yeah, it was awesome. Show knows, BiggerPockets.com slash show 73. Check it out. Awesome. Awesome.

Now that's cool, man. That's very cool. Well, I hope you had a good trip, and it's certainly nice to have you back. Thanks. It was good. Yeah. Awesome, man.

Awesome. Well, so today we got a pretty cool show, man. I'm definitely excited before we get into it really quick. Today's quick tip. All right, today's quick tip is in all the show notes on the Bigger Pockets podcast, at least all the most recent ones, we do what are called tweetable topics. And tweetable topics are we basically grab a quick one-liner, a quick quote that's got some valuable insight from our guests, and we share it as this tweetable link.

So if you are a listener and have never checked out the show notes, jump on BiggerPockets.com slash show 73 or any of the other show notes and check out the tweetable topics and tweet them for us. And if you don't have Twitter, don't know how to use it, don't like it, whatever, grab it, copy, paste the quote, and put it on Facebook or Gplus, whatever you like, and share it and help spread the word about the shows. So that's, you know, that's today's quick tip. Quick tip. Quick tip. There you go. There you go. Cool. All right. So today, we've got Maron Kamari. Maran is a buying a hold investor who hails from the Los Angeles, California area, but who actually invest completely out of state.

Miran was on the Bigger Pockets podcast once before, back on show 25, which was the newbie podcast, and there he had talked about getting his first deal. Well, since then, in the last year, his business has really, really blown up. So we had to get him back on the show to talk more about things like getting started, investing out of state, overcoming struggles, and a whole lot more. We all joke that rentals are passive. but if you're spending nights matching receipts or guessing what a property earned last month, that's not passive at all. Baselaine fixes that part of landlording, the financial chaos.

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Cool. Let's do it. Yep. All right, Mayeron, welcome to the show, man. Good to have you back finally for like a full-length episode. Yeah, it's nice to be here. I'm excited. Yeah, me too.

Hey, for those people who don't know, Mayeron was actually on our show back in number when he... What number what? What number was it, Brandon? Was it 25? All right, number 25. You would know, of course. All right.

For those of you who don't know, Mayeron was on episode number 25, our first newbie podcast where we interviewed four different investors. So we are exceptionally excited to bring him back today because he's no longer a newbie. He is all grown up. So, yeah, we're going to talk about his journey. You know, like last time we talked about his first deal, how we kind of got his first deal and kind of got going.

So today we're going to talk about his subsequent deals and what it is that made him, I guess, more successful and thriving. So let's do it. Right on, right on. Well, man. Well, let's just jump in. I mean, how did you get started in real estate? Let's just start there. Okay.

So I talked about this a little bit on the last podcast. I'll just keep it short. Back in 2010, I made the decision that I really wanted to buy my own. house. I was living with my parents. And I started buying books, doing some research online on mortgages, how to buy a house properly, all the things I need to look for. And I came across bigger pockets, I think, when I was searching on something about mortgage underwriting. And I started reading some of the forum posts. And man, I really got hooked on real estate right then. I eventually did buy my first primary residence in early 2012. And I started renting out the spare rooms. It really helped me

kind of get a feel for how land loading works, kind of save a little bit more money so that I can make a down payment on my first deal, which I did in 2013. Awesome. And where do you live?

Like, where's your primary residence at? Yeah, I live in Willen Hills, California. It's right here in Los Angeles. Okay. So that's the kind of area

where you can get like, you know, $20,000, $30,000 houses there, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think so. Not really. Maybe, maybe a garage.

Wiland Hills is pretty shushi. It's a nice neighborhood. Yeah. That's cool. That's cool. Yeah, right on, right on. Okay, so you got this first deal. And I guess, you know, you had mentioned BP kind of being helpful really quick.

You know, yes, it's self-serving, but I'll ask anyway. So, like, how did the site actually come to be of assistance for you? Maybe you could just kind of fill us in a little bit on that. Okay, so prior to coming on the site, I didn't really think of real estate as an investment possibility. I didn't even know that people, well, I've heard about it. landlords before and everything, but I didn't really think about it for myself. So for me, bigger pockets was really big when it comes to exposure to real estate investing. And I think since then, it's been really helpful for me for all my education and networking opportunities. I mean,

I live here in California. I invest out of state. But without being able to network with people in other states online on the forums, I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing today. Cool. Cool. We like to hear that. Definitely. I mean, I'm the exact same way, right? A lot of people think that I like, people always say, like, I'm glad, Brandon, you started the site, you and Josh. But to be, like, what, most people don't know is I didn't start the site with Josh. I mean, I only started, you know, what, coming on board here, what, two years ago. I mean, I've been a member for six or seven years. It's been a year and a half. A year and a half. I single-handedly started this one, almost 10 years ago. But Brandon, Brandon doesn't ever deny it when they ask him. He's just nods his head and says, yeah. Yeah. No problem. I don't have a chip on my shoulders.

Yeah, not at all. No, but I started the exact same way you did with on the forums, interacting, asking questions. I go back and look at my old questions and I'm like, oh, I was so stupid back then. I wish I can ask you guys to kind of hide or block my friends. It's kind of embarrassing, but not happening. I mean, here's the thing. And it's funny you say that because you're not the only one who has that thought,

But here's the thing. Everybody started that way, every single person. So that stupid question that you had, you know, I think not only A, does it help people, but B, you know, it should further motivate you by going back and, you know, look at those first posts that you put up on the site and be like, you know, you'd be shocked by what, you know, quote unquote, stupid questions you asked. You know, think to where you are today and you're like, wow, you know, I could really school that young guy.

Wait, that was me. Hold on. Yeah, that's true. That's true. So use it as motivation. Yeah, there you go. There you go. It's fun. Cool. All right. So let's transition to kind of what happened next. So maybe we can ask this, what stood out to you about real estate?

Like, you know, you got some extra cash or whatever you were trying to do. Why not stocks? Why not whatever else? Why real estate? Well, I was just hanging around the forums. Obviously, when I was buying, what is in the process of buying my first house and saving money, just listening to the way people were talking about building. cash flow, developing their portfolios, quitting their jobs, making all this money. I was like, man, I can do that too. I can have this control in my portfolio and really build wealth for myself and replace my income and just leave my job. I was really sold on that dream just by hanging around

the forms and talking to people. Yes. And what was it that you did or currently do? I'm not sure if you're still working. I'm assuming you are. Yeah, I work in a histology laboratory. It's a medical laboratory where when someone goes in for a biopsy, they send in the specimen to us. And we take the specimen and put it on a microscope slide for the pathologist to diagnose the patient. And they trust you with that material? Yeah. Surprisingly, they do. I put in a lot of work in that field.

So I'm confident in that. Well, that's a new profession. That's cool. I mean, one I didn't know anything about, so that's pretty neat. Yeah, it's good. But because we have to get the specimens back to people the next day, are operations all graveyard and we're there at night. So to get everything back in the morning and that's the part I don't like about it.

Well, that said, that gives you a serious advantage. You know, back in the day, I'm going to talk about myself a little bit. I know everybody wants me to talk a little bit more about me once in a while. So here you go. Enjoy it, guys. Back in the day when I was in the entertainment business, I worked all sides of the business. I was an actor, worked in casting, worked on production, did all sorts of stuff. and one of the hardest things was finding the time if you were working a job to get out,

go to auditions, deal with that kind of stuff. And one of my closest friends, actually the guy who initially coined bigger pockets for me, he said it and I was like, I got to use that, right? He was working graveyard shift. And I'm like, dude, you're crazy, man. You're working all night long. How do you get anything done during the day? He's like, my body adjust to it.

it's the perfect thing for the business that I'm in. He's like at night I go and I make money, I get back at seven or eight, I sleep for a few hours, then I go out all day long and I'm free the entire main part of the day. Then I'll take a nap or go to bed pretty early in the evening. And I think it's perfect, man, that you're doing that. I really do. I'm wondering if you're finding that your sleep schedule kind of modifies a little bit to what he's doing. You know, now that I think about it, it really does. What I do is when I get home in the morning, I pretty much get all my errands, all my business stuff, real estate stuff done in the morning. And I just go to sleep in the afternoon. So during business hours,

I'm pretty much available. And it's helped a lot with real estate. Like for closings, anytime I have to call property managers dealing with anything. I do it during business hours. And I'm not at work. So it has worked out pretty good. Yeah, that's nice. You know, for those people that are listening that are just starting out, one thing I recommend a lot is even if you can't quit your job right now, like people look forward to quitting your job, at least find a job that's flexible enough for you to do your real estate investing. Like if you're working a nine to five that you hate, real estate doesn't have to be your answer to getting out of a job.

You could just quit your job and find a better job or find a better job and then quit your job and then do that for a few years until you can actually quit everything. And so I think a lot of people think all or nothing, but yeah, finding a job that's flexible, especially something like becoming a real estate agent. I mean, that's a pretty flexible job and it's in the industry. So I'm a huge fan of that. And I'll say really quick on that, don't just go and quit your job. Please, please, don't just go and quit your job.

If you hate your job and you've been thinking about doing it forever, okay, that's one thing. But like, you know, we've talked about this a lot with people on the podcast. You know, a job is a great way to help you continue to get loans and things like that. You know, find if you're thinking about quitting, you know, find a pathway that'll kind of get you maybe to the next job, which is kind of that stepping stone towards eventually quitting. But don't just say, hey, I want to be a real estate investor. I'm going to quit my job today. I think that's an incredibly risky idea.

I think it's a bad idea. I would kind of stay away from that. Yeah. I would definitely agree with that. So what is your timeline for quitting your job if you still plan that? Yeah, I'm definitely planning that. I'm looking based on how things have been going so far, hopefully in the next four or five years. Okay.

Right on. Cash flow wise, I'm about one third of the way there. Oh, right on. That's great. That's great. And, you know, it's nice to hear. you say four or five years versus saying, yeah, I want to quit in two weeks. You know, like, you know, realism.

Being realistic about what you're doing is super, super important for investors, wouldn't you say? Yeah, definitely. And if it happens sooner, it happens sooner. But I definitely want to set a realistic timeline and plan out my goal so that I can achieve it at least by that timeline. Yeah, that makes sense. And some people do quit their jobs to do a flip, like a real estate job, right?

Like wholesaling or flipping. Like that is a legitimate thing. I mean, it's difficult. It's very difficult to try to make a living when you're brand new at flipping or wholesaling, but it can be done. But yeah, just quitting to try to be, especially a buy and hold real estate investor is pretty tough. And that's what you are, right, at buy and hold? Yeah, definitely buy and hold. Okay.

And so those people who don't know, most people probably do, but what does that mean to be a buy and hold real estate investor? So I buy properties and I hold them for the long term and I rent them out in hopes of achieving cash flow. And I'm not selling the properties and I'm holding them. And you're in Woodland Hills, right? So the property there is not inexpensive. So I'm guessing, and not judging you, I'm just guessing you're probably not buying in Woodland Hills, right? No.

All right. The money doesn't run that deep in my family. There you go. All right, so where are you investing? I invest out of state. I invest primarily in Milwaukee, Wisconsin right now. Okay. Yeah.

Gotcha. We've got a few people. We had Don, Anastasi on the show back episode. number, I don't remember. It was a while back. But we'll point to the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 73. But Don's working there as well, which I believe you and Don worked together on a lot of stuff, correct? Yes, we do. We work together pretty much on all the deals I've done there except for one. I've worked with Don. Okay. Really? And Don, obviously, you met through Bigger Pockets. Yeah, I met Dawn on Bigger Pockets. Right on. So that's pretty awesome, man. All right. So you guys are, you're working out of state with Don.

How'd you guys actually get to know each other on the site there? Okay, so being around the site, I mean, Don was pretty active on the forums also. I always saw her responding on different threads, talking on different posts. And I remember she made a post in the marketplace saying that she's seeing a lot of good deals in her market. And I've already seen all the help and advice she gave on the forum. So I reached out to her, talked to her, sent her a message, introduced myself, and we kind of vetted each other out a little bit. and decided to try out a deal and it's worked out. That's awesome. That's really, really awesome.

Really quick, tell us about that first deal with Don. Okay, so on the first deal, she kind of already had a deal in the pipeline. I think it was a two-bedroom, one bath house. We split everything 50-50. We bought it for around, I think, $21,000, put like $3,000 or $4,000 into it, and it's running for 750, 750 right now. And the tenant has been there ever since we bought the property and we haven't had really any problems with it.

So you guys are 50% partners then? Yes, yes. That's awesome. All right, we're just going to interrupt your regularly scheduled broadcast here, the Bigger Pockets podcast, to bring you our sponsor today on the show. Our sponsor today is Pensco. Did you know that right now you can invest your money

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for a free real estate investors guide or learn more at learn.pensco.com. let's get back to this story about the partners. I want to jump in actually with a question. So you were talking about, you know, you found Don on the site. You did your first deal. It's working out pretty well. But I want to step back a little bit and just say, how should other people do that? I mean, like, one thing I know I want to point out that you said is you saw that Don was posting helpful things. You saw that she was involved. She was giving good answers. And that's how she, I mean, I'm assuming that's a part of it. But what do you recommend for people looking for partners and wanting to invest out of state?

via a partner. Yeah. I would definitely recommend that they, well, they first be active on the forums themselves. So when they reach out to somebody that that person kind of already knows who they are. I think that made a big difference also with Don deciding to work with me because I was pretty active on the forms also. But I would definitely suggest working with someone or looking for someone that's already doing deals in their market, knows their market really well, and kind of has the same investing philosophy that you do so that you guys don't have too much friction when it comes to making all the decisions when you do partner together. Yeah, that's really, really, really good advice. So how are you guys divvying up your roles in the two of you? Okay. Well, we're both scoping out the MLS looking for potential deals, but Don handles physically visiting the properties, inspecting them. She does the bookkeeping property management. I try to handle the insurance side of,

of things and just dealing with the banks and lenders. Pretty much most of the things that I can do here in California. Nice. How many properties do you guys, well, do you have now or you guys have together? So we did the first two deals, 50-50, because I think she had other things going on also.

So lately we've been trying a different structure where I'm kind of paying her a fineer's fee for doing all the due diligence and other things up front before buying the property. And then she's getting compensated for the property management on the back end of everything. She's been helping me manage the property. Cool.

Perfect. All right. So let's move on and talk about some of the specific deals you've been doing since then. First of all, how many deals have you done yet so far? Okay. So I have nine rentals and now we're working on the 10th, which is going to be a flip. Okay. A flip.

You're flipping in Milwaukee or is that? Yeah, it's a flip in Milwaukee. Okay. We want to, I definitely want to touch on that. Yeah. And we, you know, ironically, didn't we have a. Jay Scott flipping properties in Milwaukee as well. He also flipped it in one of our old episodes. So is like, do I have to do my first flip in Milwaukee? Is that the thing? Is Milwaukee like the new

flip capital? I guess I'm trying out the first ones for me. So we'll see how it goes. So why did you decide to flip that one? Okay. So the portfolio lender that I've been working with that's been financing all my deals, they pretty much told me that I'm expanding too fast and they want to give it a couple months to make sure I'm not in over my head. so I figured why not try a flip right now while there's a good deal around. Makes sense. Well, I want to ask about that. That's interesting to me. So you've been working with a portfolio lender.

Yeah. And presumably, well, you bought quite a few properties, you know, in fairly short amount of time. But these are all properties that are positive cash flow on the order. It sounds like several hundred dollars per month for each of them, correct? Yes, yes. For some reason, I just really. think that they want to make sure I didn't bite off more than I could chew. Just give it a couple months of making the payments. I think I bought four properties financed through them since 2014

started. And they just want to kind of just make sure everything stabilizes and I get rented out, stuff like that. Gotcha. Gotcha. And are you fully rented on the properties that you have right now? Everything is rented except for one unit in a triplex that I bought two months ago. We're just finishing up the rehab and I think we're starting to market for a tenant already. Gotcha. And is Dawn helping you kind of manage the rehab side of that? Yeah, yeah. She's been helping me project manage dealing with the contractors, things like that. Fantastic. Cool. Cool. All right. So you got nine properties so far. And when was the first one? When did you buy the first out of state property? Yeah. So the first out of state property was the one we talked about on the last podcast in Indianapolis.

Okay. Yep. I closed on that in April 2013. Wow. So it's not, I mean, it's just barely been over a year now. Yeah, it's funny. It seems like two years because I'm thinking 2013, 2014, but when I really think about it, it's only been like 14 months. So your first year, was it 11 deals or nine? I know I heard both numbers. Nine deals and the flip we're working on is the 10. Wow. That's a really impressive first year, man. That's what happens when I got bigger pockets behind me. Yeah, baby.

That's awesome. Well, what about, okay, so you got the nine, buying holds, I want to go back to. What typical numbers are you looking for? Like, how much you typically buying them for? What kind of return are you looking for? How much you're putting down? Let's talk about the details on those. All right. So I buy properties two different ways. I'll either do a straight finance purchase or I'll buy the property, all cash, fix it up and refinance it out and keep it as a rental. But on single family homes, I'm looking at properties between 20,000 to 40,000, depending on how many rooms in the house. And for multifamily, I'm trying to keep it at 25,000 a door, two to four units.

So Milwaukee is the new Detroit, 20K of the door. Well, I'm not too familiar with Detroit, but I haven't had any problems with crime or renting things out. No vandalism. It sounds like a, I mean, from the folks that we've talked to, it definitely sounds like a pretty, pretty solid market for less expensive rentals in an area where the economy is pretty solid. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely bad areas in Milwaukee like in any city, but that's why it's really important to connect with people that live there, that do invest there, that know the difference between the bad areas and the good areas. I mean, you can go east of one street and everything be bad. And just west of that street, it's a good rental neighborhood. So you really got to get that on the ground knowledge. And I think that applies anywhere. And, you know, if you're a new investor and you're listening to this, you know, definitely keep that in mind. If you're investing outside a city that you're familiar with, you definitely need to work with somebody, or at least spend time on the ground to know block by block by block, at least what properties you're looking at.

Because if you're unfamiliar, you can really quickly find yourself in trouble. Yeah, definitely, definitely. I actually, I flew down there in September last year, and I kind of buy in this little one-mile radius area. And I just went in my little rental car, just up and down every single street with a map. And any street that kind of looked not shady like I'd want to buy there, I just checked it off of the list. Okay, I'm not going to buy on that street.

And I just drove up and down all the streets. That's a really good idea. That's a really good idea. So now when I see it on Google Maps or on the MLS, I kind of have an idea of what that street was like. And just a good sense of what I'm looking at. That's a really fantastic idea. And then you could always just refer back to it.

Say you go on Google Maps and you see something, you see a property that might look good and you say you didn't have the thing to cross-reference you know you might forget and say oh no you know but this that gives you a good reference point to at least point back to you. Yeah because Google Maps isn't updated every year or something like that.

I think last the last time they went through that area of Milwaukee was 2012 so a lot can change in two, three years. Yeah. Speaking of Google Maps, did you see, well first of all, you were the one who talked about on the last podcast we did with you. That's how you found your first property was Google Map. I mean, essentially, that's how you toured the neighborhood, right?

Yeah, that's how I toured the neighborhood. Kind of just looked around, checked out the street, and see if it was well taken care of. It's kind of like the layout of the land to get familiar with it. Yeah, and I love that idea. But it reminded me that the other day, Josh actually sent me over an article about Detroit. And it was Google Street View or whatever of like, it was like, what was it, 2008, 2010, whatever. It was crazy. And we'll link to that in the show notes that, BiggerPockets.com slash Only if Brandon could find it. I'll find it. Yeah, it was on Business Insider, I think.

And it was crazy. Like, you could just see the decline of these neighborhoods over the last five years through Google's eyes. It was insane. So, anyway, we'll point to that. You have to check that out. And, you know, of course, I have to disclaim and say, yes, we're dogging on Detroit again.

But, you know, there's, I've been getting a lot of articles lately about how Detroit is starting to turn around. And it's fascinating. But, you know, Detroit is just a, you know, a picture of any kind of city that's in decline. that's why we use it. It's easy. But anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.

So you had mentioned you've got this triplex. So you're doing multis and single families, yeah? Yeah, I have one triplex, two duplexes, and six single family homes now. Gotcha. And I co-owned two of those with Don. Gotcha. And was the investing at the distance?

I'm assuming at first it was probably kind of nervous, little intimidating? Yeah, it was definitely intimidating. I mean, investing in general was pretty intimidating at first, but the more I learn about the process and how to do it right, the easier it's become to pull the trigger on each deal. Yeah. Okay.

Go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah, and I think that usually it's the fear of the unknown that hold people back from doing that type of investment. And that's what I love about bigger pockets, because I can anytime I have something that I don't understand, understand, I can ask a question and it gets answered. And it really helps me move forward on making deals and making offers. Yeah. And that's just what, and then the whole, the whole theory of

community-based education, you know, you learn from other people rather than from some, you know, one source, one guy somewhere in, you know, I don't know, the Bahamas, who's laying on the beach teaching. But so, I mean, I want to dig into on a little bit more before we move on, on the out-of-state investing. So people who are listening to this show, there's probably a lot of lot of people, maybe even the majority of people listening, live in Seattle, L.A., New York, you know, big cities where you cannot invest locally very easily. At least cash flow is non-existent, pretty much. So what would be a good first step, do you think, for somebody who is in that position

that lives in L.A. that can't invest. I mean, what's the first step they should do, second step, kind of, what do you think the person should? That's a great question. So I think the person should look into potential markets that do have good price-to-rent ratios on their rentals, if cash flow is their thing. Kind of study that market a little bit, like the macroeconomics, how's the employment, are the jobs growing, how's the population growth? Is it steady?

Is it growing? And then narrowing your search, maybe down to two or three markets, and then try to network with people on bigger pockets that live in those markets and learn more about them. Because you really got to have that firsthand boots on the ground knowledge before you do decide to invest in a particular market. I think that's definitely the first step. To expand on that real quick, and then I'll let you go on.

But the idea of like, if you want to go into a market, that's the very first thing I would do. I find the market. I think you hit on that exactly. I'd find the market that I wanted to go into, and then I'd find somebody in that market to connect with. And it might take several people

because some people are just weird. I mean, if you call up Josh, Josh Dorkin in Denver, who knows what you're going to get. But no, you find the right person, you start connecting. I mean, if people, and this is probably,

opening me up for stuff I don't want to do. But if somebody wanted to come to my area to invest. Don't, don't do that. I'm just saying, like, I would tell them, here's the good neighborhoods, here's the bad ones, right? I'm not going to, like, I don't have some weird, like, complex of, like, oh, I don't want more investors in my, in my town, so leave. I mean, I would say, sure, here's the place to stay away from, here's a place to go to.

And I would say the vast majority of people that are active on bigger pockets are the exact same way. They love to share, you know, they're proud of their town of their accomplishments. so they're going to share where the good and bad spots are. And that builds trust in you as a person. By not being, I'm going to say greedy, I don't know if that's the right word. There's probably a better one about the information. But by being somebody who's willing to help out your fellow investor, even if they are somewhat of a competitor,

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That's A-V-A-I-L-C-O-Sash Bigger Pockets. Cool. All right, so let's go on a little bit more. I mean, the first step was finding the location and you want to find somebody in that thing. What else do you think is good to do for a newbie? Well, when you think about buying the house, you need to have the information that,

you need to have the information that you need to make a decision that that's a good market. And once you have that, you need to get everything lined up where you can actually make a purchase. Who are you going to use for your insurance? Who's going to be the lender? Who's going to help you as an agent? So I would definitely start to line

those three things up. And then just start looking for deals and do your due diligence on a deal and shoot an offer if you find one that you like. Let's go into the team building thing here for a second because I think that's something that

We do cover it from some perspectives, but when you're jumping into a market at a distance, you know, picking a team, figuring out who's going to be on it is definitely a challenge. I know I've experienced it. I'm wondering, I guess for you, you were kind of lucky because you found that partner who is local. So now you had the one person who you can trust, who can really do all the legwork, who can do the vetting, the in-person vetting. You know, you don't know somebody until you're showing. their hands is kind of the saying, right?

What other advice might you have for some of the listeners on finding the right team members at a distance? To be honest, I wouldn't be investing at a distance now unless I had a partner or boots on the ground to actually vet those people out in person. I've never had to really hire a contractor on my own from a distance, so I wouldn't know. Most of the people I work with, my agent, my CPA, everyone I've met on Bigger Pocket, so there are people that have already developed a relationship with online. So that's definitely helped me.

So I would suggest that if you're going to be doing it at a distance, try to connect with someone on Bigger Pockets. There you go. And by the way, this is not a paid commercial for Bigger Pockets. Even though it sounds like. Yeah, I'm not getting paid for this. It's just pretty much every avenue of my investing, I've done through Bigger Pockets.

It's just such a great resource. And I can see a lot of the problems that people have with investing out of state. I mean, we've done a few bigger pockets meetups here in LA. And every time people come up with questions, property management, how do you do this? How do you find a lawyer? How do you do this? And I found all those things on bigger pockets. Interesting.

Interesting. All right. So let's get back to your investing here then. How are you finding your deals? You said you scour the MLS are all your properties bought off MLS? Yeah. So far, everything's been through the MLS. I mean, I've gotten some yellow letters.

Actually, it's kind of funny from wholesalers because I'm an out-of-state landlord. I've called them back and told them to put me on their buyers list, but I haven't gotten any leads through that yet. Gotcha. That's actually kind of a cool strategy. That's not bad, yeah. When you get the yellow letters, yeah, call them up. That's funny. I've actually, two of the yellow letters have been from Bigger Pockets members. I searched on their names and they're actually members on BP, which is kind of interesting. Nice. Nice. All right. So you're mostly doing MLS. And there's a lot of markets where you can't just do that. I mean, you're not going to go in the MLS and find decent rentals. that don't need an incredible amount of work. So it's kind of cool. Is there always an overabundance at least now in that market of rental properties? And actually, to follow up on that, what kind of numbers are you seeing on the rentals?

Are these 2% deals? Yeah, definitely 2% as a minimum. And they all meet the 50% rule because the houses are so cheap. But there is an abundance of deals on the MLS. But with that said, there's abundance of deals that also don't make sense because a lot of these properties are just so shot out that repairing them wouldn't make that much sense to what their value is at now. Are you repairing everyone? Is everyone in need of a lot of work? No, not everyone.

Some of them have, we try to keep the repair budget somewhere around 5,000, unless I'm doing like a full rehab like I'm doing now. 5 to 10,000. Okay. And how are you financially structuring this? You said you have a portfolio lender, but are you coming with the repair money, you guys are coming out of pocket with it? And then they're putting 20% down, I'm guessing. So like I said before, some of the properties I buy straight as a finance purchase, so I'm putting 20% down and getting the loan and any repairs, that'll come out of my pocket. But on the all cash purchases, I'm buying all cash, putting all the money of repairs.

on my own and then refinancing it later to get the cash back out. I'm a big fan of that strategy when it works. It can be a little tough. If it works. Yeah. It can be tough getting refinances. I don't know if you face that, but it's not easy. I've had some challenges with appraisals on the refinances.

It seems like they do them a little differently than when you're just buying the house straight. Yeah, I agree. They tend to be a lot more conservative the second time around, I guess, like, when you're trying to refinance. So, yeah, makes sense. Well, cool. Well, what about your due diligence,

process. So you find a good deal. We talked about how you find them. How are you doing due diligence? Obviously, you have a partner, boots in the ground, but what stuff do you do? What stuff does Don do? And how does that look? Okay. So when Don's going out to visit each property, she's inspecting it, trying to figure out how much work needs to be done, what is going to cost to rent it out. She'll take a lot of pictures, pretty much put together a scope of work. And while she's doing that, I'm just getting the basic information, like the property tax bills, kind of estimating what is going to cost. insure the property figure out. And I'll ask her what the market rent. She thinks it would be for that property. So we can kind of get all the numbers we need to run the deal. When she's out there, she's basically looking at, you know, the big ticket items. Like how's the condition of the roof? How's the siding? The electrical panel, HVAC, water heater, all those things. Any big ticket

things that could kill the deal. And if things check out and it's price low enough, we'll fix them, we'll fix some things, and if the numbers make sense on my spreadsheet, then I'll make an offer on the property. Nice. Nice. I've got a question. Beyond just email and phone calls, do you guys have some kind of management flow that you use? I mean, you're doing a lot of business together. Are there any tools that you're using to help kind of facilitate the communication between you, or are you really just kind of doing your thing through email and calls? Emails primarily. We talk on the phone sometimes, but mainly emails and Google Docs. We use a lot of spreadsheets and a lot of emails. I think it's easier to keep track of everything on emails because you can just go back and search on it because if I talk about something on the phone, I'm probably going to forget it like in a week. It's good to do everything through emails. But I would definitely not be able to keep track of things the way we do unless we were using Google Docs or some type of online thing. So I've got an idea.

We've been using a bigger pocket. It's a tool called HipChat. And it's this online chat tool. Kind of like think Skype, but the cool thing is you can create multiple rooms. So what, you know, and I've never tested this, but I think it might be a cool idea. You know, you create a different room for each property. And essentially, you guys can have conversations about different properties in different rooms. And it'll let you know if there's a message pending in there.

and it also keeps a history of, you know, X, you know, forever of all the, all the properties, all the discussions that you have, you can, you know, share pictures in there and it shows up like in the thread. It's really cool. What do you think, Brandon? That might be kind of a clever way to manage. That's kind of a cool idea, yeah. I mean, obviously I think a full-blown, like, you know, property management software, some kind would be best, but, you know. Well, I'm not talking about the management side. I'm just communicating with somebody. The communication with a partner on your deals. That's definitely a good idea.

Yeah. That's pretty cool. The site's called HipChat, and we'll put it in the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 73 for those of you who are listening, HipChat.com. Yeah. All right, cool. So, you know, we've been talking about this investing at a distance. I guess the last real question I have on that is, you know, in terms of challenges.

You know, what's the biggest, what would have been the biggest challenges for you in terms of investing out of state? And I guess what would you warn newbies about in terms of investing at a distance? So the biggest challenge I've had so far has been with the first purchase that I made, kind of just out of nowhere. It's been with the management of the property, actually the property manager in Indianapolis. I'm really big on bookkeeping and it seems like I've had a hard time getting the monthly reports to me and having the monthly rent dispersed to me on time. I always just have to be haggling her to get all the things that I need every month and it's been pretty stressful. It's been pretty stressful. Is there a reason you don't switch? And by the way, I've been in your shoes. So I feel you're

paying many, many times over. Why don't you just find a new manager? I've been seriously considering it, and it's kind of hard. I mean, it's kind of easy to neglect that property when I have all this other stuff going on in Milwaukee. I mean, I eventually do get the rent and the month of reports, and I probably should be switching the property manager. I just haven't taken action on it for some reason. All right. So I'm going to ask you right now, how late are you getting the rent? Like maybe a month or so late.

What? Dude, hold on now. What would you do if a tenant was a month late in rent? Yeah, I would definitely switch. I would definitely follow the notice. All right, guys. So here's my challenge to everybody listening. Here you go.

This is show 73 of the Bigger Pockets podcast. The show notes are at biggerpockets.com slash show 73. I want you guys to all jump in and bust Maron's backside to get it together and find a new manager. We need to support him on this. We need to not let him slack on this. So get out there and do it. And hopefully everybody listening will help push you a little bit on that. Okay.

Okay. Good. It's a challenge. Yeah, and I would definitely say some advice for a new person starting out. Just know that property management has the power to make a good deal very stressful or even a nightmare or go bad. Having a good property manager is really important. It's just as important as having a good deal and make sure you take the time to vet them out. And if you have to get rid of one, it probably makes sense to get rid of one sooner than later.

Yes. And I will say from my own, again, from my own experience, good deal. good deals can absolutely be destroyed from a bad property manager if they burn you or, or just mismanage. And so absolutely, absolutely spend as much time as you're going to spend vetting a deal, vetting your property manager, if not more, because they're going to be the ones who are going to be managing and running this thing for you. Definitely. Cool, cool. All right. Well, why don't we go on to a little bit more of talking about getting started? A lot of people listening to the show are just getting started, maybe have one deal or no deals left.

So what do you think was the largest driving factor that motivated you to take action in real estate instead of just sitting by and letting the world go by like normal? Okay, so kind of how I was talking earlier, being on the forums, listening to everyone, talk about all the cash flow they're building and quitting their job. I just really got a feel for that, wanting that freedom. I mean, I visualize it every day where I don't have to go into work. I can spend more time my girlfriend, my family, and I can just focus on other ways to make money and build my business. So that has been definitely the most motivating factor.

Nice. It's just freedom. Nice. I mean, that's important, right? You have your kind of goal. What do you want? You also mentioned because you hang out, you know, on the forums and you saw other people. So I just want to, there's that famous quote that I love that just says you are the average of the five people you associate with most.

I think, yeah, if you're associating with guys who are, I don't know, like playing Xbox still 30 in the morning every year. night and that's all you do for your life. I mean, that's, that's who you will become. But if you're hanging around people who are motivated and trying to build something out of their life, that's who you'll become. So, yeah, associate with people who are like-minded, whether it's online or in the real world, associate with the people you want to become. So, all right, well. Yeah, and it definitely helps a lot because I don't really have any other friends in my life that do invest in real estate or really do any investing. And just being around people that are talking about it all the time keeps it fresh in your mind and keeps you from getting complacent and what you're doing.

And it really helps to take an action on the next step and always planning your goals and staying motivated. All right. That gives me, you know, something in my head here. That gives me a question to ask. And this is actually to both you and Brandon. So you, Muran just said you don't have friends who invest. And Brandon, I know a lot of your local folks, your local friends aren't doing that either. And so my question is to both of you guys. What do you think it is? You know, these, you guys know people who know you, right? You've got people who know that you're investing,

they know that you're starting to be, you know, you guys are successful at what you're doing. What's the difference between those guys and you? Why is it that these guys, these people that we know who see that, hey, you know, we're all in real estate, we're starting to do well, why aren't they making it happen? Is it just the lack of knowledge? Is it the lack of understanding?

What do you think that is? You know, that's a pretty good question. I think about that a lot, actually. Do you ever ask them? I mean, because I ask my friends, I'm like, hey, you know, how come you're not doing this? Or, you know, why are you doing this? I know a lot of people, a lot of my friends are actually investing. But, you know, others aren't.

And for me, the ones who aren't are typically, they're so busy and they just don't think about it or they think they can't figure it out or whatever it is. And I say, well, hey, man, you got me, you know, we got the hub, we got this bigger pockets, you know, jump on. And it just, it never happens. So I went to like dinner slash dessert last night with a friend of mine. And it was the same guy I talked about a while ago on the podcast, a couple episodes ago where I said he wants to sell his house. He's very motivated, wants to do it quick. I might do either a lease option or a sub two or something with him just to, he wants to get out of his house. And I told him last night, I said he was like, he asked me again,

hey, will you just take over this? I can't deal with it. I'm moving to a new house and I don't want to deal with it. I said, well, why don't you just do a lease option with somebody? I'll walk you through the entire process. I'll help you find a tenant. I'll help you handle every single solitary aspect of it. He said, no, I just don't have time for that.

And I'm like, there's so, I mean, he's got so much equity. And he's saying, I don't have time for the hour or two. It might take him to learn or to listen to a podcast on something. Like, he just, I don't understand it. I mean, I really don't. Like, I sat there just like, you don't have time. It would not take you long. I will walk you through everything. Nothing.

I think it's the old saying you could lead a horse to water, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've talked to some people before and they'll say, oh, yeah, I don't have time. I just had a new baby. And in my mind, I'm thinking, yeah, you just had a new baby. That's why you need to be doing this. And it's just a different way of looking at things, I guess. Yep. And that's why I think the mindset stuff is so important.

You know, a lot of times, like, you know, the motivational posts or the motivational speakers get kind of a bad rap for being, you know, all, I don't know, fluffy. But I mean, I think there was a time and a place for that motivation because, I mean, it's not enough. This is not a numbers thing. I mean, real estate investing makes sense to everybody. Everybody knows it works. And the whole world pretty much all agrees this is a good way to build wealth. So why does such a small part of the population do it? It's something internal. It's something inside of us that that either you have it or you don't. And it's hard to encourage somebody else to get that. So yeah. So can I talk about your struggle? a little bit. What do you think like your biggest problems, your biggest challenges? What do you suck at? I suck at public speaking. I think lately as I start to see

that the portfolio lender has kind of like tightened the rope a little bit. I don't know for sure they're going to actually open the floodgates and do more loans or not. I'm starting to look more into partnering with people and I think right now the struggle I have is learning how to actually market myself right and put together deals with other people the right way.

And I kind of suck at that. So I'm learning how to do that now. Well, that's cool. I'm the exact same way. I'm learning as well as I go. I mean, people often think because I'm on the podcast and same with Josh, that we know exactly what we're doing here. But we're learning just like everyone else.

I learn more from the podcast than anybody listening, I think, because I get to ask these questions. So, yeah, it's a continual process. And I think here's part of my issue with the gurus. If you come across somebody who thinks they know it all, please don't listen to them. I mean, I think that's the bottom line. We're all learning.

We're all constantly picking up new tips and advice and ways to figure things out. And if somebody thinks they know it all, you know, they're no at all. I mean, that's kind of the bottom line and move on because if you're not humble enough to constantly be, be picking up new things and learning, then I don't know. We're all teachers to each other, I think, and we're all students. Yeah, that's definitely true. Here I am. I'm 10 deals in, and I feel like I don't know that much at all. And yet the people listening, the 25,000 plus

people who are going to hear this show, particularly the new investors, are looking at you as this guy that they're like, oh my God, May Ron, this guy's done nine deals and he's working on his 10th, you know, in a year and a half. How can I be like him? And so while you're learning, you know, you are teaching a lot of people, man. We're all, we're all absorbing from you. I hope so. That feels good. Yeah.

That's cool. Well, my last question before we head on is if you could go back, I love this question. If you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice when you first got started, what would it be? Okay. So when I first got started in 2010 and I didn't buy my actual first deal until 2013, I would just go back and slap myself in the face and say, hey, get started sooner. Take advantage of these deals right now because in 2010, there was a lot

more deals than there are now. And that's definitely what I would do. Get started sooner. And you should also tell yourself to remind yourself in 2014 to fire that property manager that's not taking care. Yeah, that's a good idea, too. You know, to piggyback

on the question of what would you do when you go back, we now since it's back, I don't know, a month or two ago, but we do have a book that Bigger Pockets came out with. It's free for anybody who wants to download it. It's called Real Estate Rewind. And it's just a bunch of, I think there's eight or nine or ten. People from the forums are just telling that exact answer to that question. What would I do if I could go back and tell myself something else? What would I change to do it all over? So we will point to that in the show notes at bigger pockets.com slash show 73. And if people are wondering what that noise is,

my dog is sitting at my feet like whining. So I ain't going to edit this, but that's what that's what that noise is. My stomach's not growling. That's him. Come on, Charlie. All right, well, anyway, so why don't we move on? Because, hey, Josh, do you know what time it is? It's time for the fire round. All right. Fire round. These questions come straight from the Bigger Pockets Forum.

So, Maran, you probably have seen these conversations. So I want to get your opinion on them. Number one, I cannot qualify for conventional financing. Should I use hard money on my buy-and-hold property. Man, I would say no. Now, I've heard of some hard money lenders doing some long-term buy-and-hold financing packages, but I think it's hard to find those.

And if you don't have the ability to refinance to get out of the hard money loan as an exit strategy, then you're just going to, I think you're just going to screw yourself. So I would say no. Yep. Yeah, only if you can refinance out and you're positive if you can. Yeah, because they're saying, I guess, buy and hold, and that means you're not going to sell the property. So if you're not going to be able to refinance it, I...

I think it's a bad idea. There you go. There you go. Nice. All right. Question number two, do you suggest using existing equity to purchase second, third, fourth, or each additional property? Definitely.

I mean, that's what it's there for. That's what I've been doing. All the purchases that I've made have been with tapping equity from my primary residence. And I think it's a smart move. Cool. Cool. All right. Question number three of the fire round.

Do you align more with the Dave Ramsey? ideology of all forms of debt are evil, or the Robert Kiyosaki ideology of debtist leverage, and the more you can get, the more you can do. Kiyosaki for sure. I think leverage is one of the biggest benefits of investing in real estate, and you'd be crazy not to use it, especially when you're just starting out. I can see later down the line when someone's looking to retire or they want to just keep things more stable, maybe paying off all their loans.

But taking advantage of leverage, I think is really important when you're starting out. All right. So in terms of being a buy and hold investor, who do you think are the most important people to have in your network and maybe who's the most important person to have? You're talking like agents, lawyers, CPAs, all that stuff. Man, that's a tough question. I would say boots on the ground investing out of state, that's the most important thing for my business. Lenders are interchangeable, but to really have a good person on the ground is probably the most important thing. But now after we just came through tax time, it's a close call between that and my CPA. Because if I didn't have my CPA, I had tax time. It would have been a nightmare. I think I need a benefactor now the tax time's over to pay the tax bills, man. That would be nice. All right. My question, my last fire-round question is, do you think it's smart? Now, I don't think you've done this, but do you think it's smart to start off with a condo as a buy-and-hold investor?

You know, should I just buy a condo because they're cheap? They're the only things I can afford. So what are your thoughts? Is that a good idea? Yeah, I've heard too many horror stories about condo associations and unexpected fee hikes, assessments, and stuff like that. I don't think it's a good idea. I like to be more in control of what's going to happen with the property. And that's what I like about real estate. And just knowing that an association of people can just change everything for me, I just don't like that idea. So I would say no. Rogue boards containing people on power trips are a very good way to damage your bottom line. Yeah, definitely. All right. So last question for me on the fire round is, what is the most important thing I need to look for in a real estate partnership? You've got a lot of experience with this.

What am I looking for? What's number one? Integrity. I would say that integrity is the number one thing. I don't really want to be in business with someone unless I feel they're honest and they have principles that they live by that they're going to make good decisions even without me being there and that they're always on the ball with that type of thing. So I'd say integrity is really important. That comes first.

Cool. Cool. Nice. I agree. I agree completely. All right. Let's move on to the... Famous for...

All right. Famous for these questions we ask everyone so you know what's coming. Number one, what is your favorite real estate book? Okay. How I Turn 1,000 into 5 million by William Nickerson. I really like it a lot because he goes into kind of like the steps that he made in building his whole portfolio from the first property to the last property. I just really like that. It kind of helped me with my vision.

I'm a huge fan of that book as well. All right. There you go. There you go. All right. So my question is, what about your favorite business book? Okay. So Josh is going to be happy because I'm not going to name the ones that everyone else is named.

Mix it up. It's actually an audio book. I'm really big on self-development. And this book is, the audio book is Success Mastery Academy by Brian Tracy. It's kind of a taping of a seminar that he had. And it's really helped me a lot. I mean, I even listened to it before I found bigger pockets. It's helped me with goal setting, sales, understanding money and investments more.

And it's just really, really good to kind of get your head in the right spot and stay motivated towards whatever you're doing your life. And it's really helped me a lot. Yeah, Brian Tracy's pretty popular guy. I've never listened or read any of his stuff, but I've certainly heard his name. quite a few times. So it's nice to hear a new recommendation at least. I would definitely recommend checking that out. Cool. And let's talk about hobbies here. What do you do for fun, man? Okay, so I'm really into food and martial arts. I've been training Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

for a little over four years now. Oh, yeah. I remember that. Just recently, about a year ago, I started training historical European martial arts, pretty much sword fighting. That's been really fun. I pretty much just trained so that I can justify all the food that I eat. I was going to say, you know, but are you combining martial arts and food at the same time? Are you like chopping watermelons as they're coming flying at you and that kind of stuff? I guess it would be cool to eat a piece of fruit while beating someone up. Yeah, and I really like hiking too. If I ever have any time, I try to get out there, hit a trail, and go hiking.

I haven't done that much lately, and I can definitely feel the urge to go out hiking. Nice. I'm calling you out right here. The next bigger pocket summit, we have. You and I are sword fighting on stage. Okay, okay. I will pay to see this. Your height's not going to help as much as you think when it comes to.

Oh, it will. I got long arms. You thinking he's that little short guy in elementary school that you were picking on? Yeah, there you go. Nice. I think with sword fighting, they cut the arm off. Yeah, maybe. We'll see.

All right. Final question of the famous four is, what do you believe sets apart successful investors is from those who fail or give up or never get started or just don't do it. Okay, so I think having courage and faith are really important, and that's what sets people apart. A fear is a big thing that holds people back like we were talking about earlier. And if the people that know that that is a normal thing that's going to happen and they have the courage to go through with going on a deal anyways, I think that's going to set them apart.

And really the faith to know that if you put the work in, that you're going to reap what you so. I know that as long as I keep hustling, as long as I keep educating myself and putting my work in, that I'm going to benefit from the rewards of that, it makes it easier to keep going forward. And I think if people have that faith, then they'll get started.

That's great advice. Awesome. Awesome. All right, man. So where can people find out more about you? Just bigger pockets, check out my profile. That's the best way to get hold of me. Nice.

And, of course, we'll link to that in the show notes. All right, awesome, man. Listen, before we go, guys, just want to give another shout out, another plug to our sponsor, Pensco. You can check them out at learn.pensco.com and find out all about their products and services. Otherwise, big, big thanks to Mehran Kamari for his second showing on the Bigger Pockets podcast. We really do appreciate having you, Mayeron. And, you know, for those of you who are listening, get out there, man, do it, make moves, you know, jump on bigger pockets, follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Gplus. And read the conversations, check out all the podcasts, read the thousands of blog posts on the site.

And beyond that of the utmost importance, and I know, Maran, you can attest to this, you got to be active, you got to be connecting, you got to be communicating with people, wouldn't you say? Definitely, definitely. Yeah, yeah, make it happen, talk to people, and start building your business up. That's all I got for you. This is show 73. I'm your host, Josh Dorkin, signing all.

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