BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 739: Where the REAL Money is Made in Multifamily (Asset Management 101)

Episode Date: March 14, 2023

The way you manage your multifamily real estate could be the defining factor when growing a bigger portfolio, reaching financial freedom, and leaving a lasting legacy. The “DIY management” style works for most real estate investors until they build a significant stack of multifamily properties. Then, the toilet calls, tenant complaints, and late rent checks get a little exhausting when you’re now taking care of dozens of tenants, not just two or three. So, what’s the right way to scale with multifamily real estate without losing your hair? We’ve brought back multifamily investing experts Andrew Cushman and Matt Faircloth to explain how new multifamily investors can start to scale by making some strategic hires. Both of these battle-tested investing experts have dealt with their fair share of flaky property managers, late maintenance technicians, and asset managers who care more about a paycheck than building a profitable portfolio. They know exactly what does (and doesn’t) make a good hire and how you can start scaling quicker by outsourcing work you once thought crucial for an owner to do. Andrew and Matt break down the difference between a property manager and an asset manager and explain why these roles are commonly confused. They also hit on how essential operations are at a time when cap rates are starting to expand and many buyers have fled the market. Finally, they’ll walk through the exact skills you should be looking for in an asset manager, property manager, leasing agent, and maintenance supervisor, so you can focus on growing your portfolio, NOT handling the day-to-day hiccups.  In This Episode We Cover: Asset management vs. property management and how these two separate roles create investing synergy  The changing multifamily market and how “buying a deal” isn’t as easy as it was before What small multifamily investors can do NOW to build the road to a bigger portfolio  Hiring a property manager and the twenty-seven questions you MUST ask them before you bring them into your team  Attitude over skills and how to find the rockstars that want to build your real estate portfolio Incentivizing success and making sure your workers are paid for increasing value and cash flow  And So Much More! Links from the Show Find an Investor-Friendly Real Estate Agent BiggerPockets Youtube Channel BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Pro Membership BiggerPockets Bookstore BiggerPockets Bootcamps BiggerPockets Podcast BiggerPockets Merch BPCON2023 Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Learn About Real Estate, The Housing Market, and Money Management with The BiggerPockets Podcasts Get More Deals Done with The BiggerPockets Investing Tools Find a BiggerPockets Real Estate Meetup in Your Area David's BiggerPockets Profile David's Instagram David’s YouTube Channel Work with David What Is a Real Estate Investment Asset Manager? Get your free copy of the 27 Questions You should ask a Property Manager Book Mentioned in the Show: Raising Private Capital by Matt Faircloth Connect with Matt and Andrew: Andrew's BiggerPockets Profile Andrew's LinkedIn Vantage Point Acquisitions Matt's BiggerPockets Profile Matt's Instagram DeRosa Group Click here to listen to the full episode: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/real-estate-739 Interested in learning more about today’s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 739. So a property manager is somebody who does the day-to-day stuff. An asset manager is big picture set the direction. So think of like a cruise ship. When you've ever been on a cruise, there's the activities director. And that's the person that works like 18 hours a day. You're running around. They're making shows, making sure the shows are on time,

and dinner starts on time, and the right number of chairs on the deck, and all that little minutia that is important to making for good crews, the asset manager is the captain of the ship. What's going on, everyone? This is David Green. You are host of the Bigger Pockets Real Estate Podcast, the biggest, the best, the baddest real estate investing podcast on the planet here today with a treat for you. I've got two of my good friends and studly multifamily investors, Matt Faircloth, and Andrew

Cushman here to talk asset management and property management and operations and a bunch of stuff that will make you money if you get into this space and more importantly help you not lose money if you get into this space in the future. Today is fantastic. We get into two really, really important points, forming your money making team and then learning how to communicate with them and train them to communicate with you so that you can scale and build a profitable business, not buying an asset that makes you want to pull your hair out of your head and end up like me. We get into actual stories that these two have experienced as they've managed multifamily assets for years now so that you can learn from their mistakes and avoid your own as well as find

the pieces that are most likely to help take you to the next level. Look, it's no surprise that the economy is shifting. We're heading into a recession and it's getting harder and harder to make real estate work. Now, more than ever, it's important to understand how to actually operate the asset that you've been being told for years. You need to go by. Some of the things that you're going to learn if you listen today is where to find staff that will help you, what to look for, questions to ask property managers, what to look for in a property manager before you hire them, the difference between an asset manager and a property manager, and what maintenance supervisors can do that can increase the NOI of your property and actually make it more profitable.

That and more on today's show, you don't want to miss it. A lot of property managers think their job is answering tenant emails and coordinating repairs. That's not the job. The job of a property manager is protecting and growing your operating income. and earning your trust while they do it. And that comes down to three numbers, occupancy, delinquency, and net promoter score. If those numbers slip, your income slips,

and your trust slips too. And most PMs don't hold themselves to performance standards. They focus on activity, not outcomes. Mind is different. They obsess over the metrics that actually grow your cash flow. Go to mind.com slash show me to see how mine performs

and get a month of management for free. Because if you're going to hire a property manager, hire one that manages your investment like an investment. Real estate investors, the April 15th tax deadline is coming fast. If you own rental property and haven't done a cost segregation study yet, you could be handing thousands of dollars to the IRS that you don't have to. These studies let you write off as much as 25% of your building and generate huge tax deductions.

Costsegregation.com is an online, self-guided, software that makes cost segregation fast and affordable. So it finally makes sense for smaller rental properties purchased for as low as $100,000. With pricing under $500 and an average savings of over $25,000, it's just a no-brainer. What's more, audit support is included by the number one cost segregation company in the U.S., but you must complete it before the tax deadline. Go to costsegregation.com and use code tax deadline to get 10% off your first report. Don't overpay the IRS, head to Costsegregation.com before April 15th. Okay, we're going to shift gears for a minute to cover something important, especially for new

landlords. The shows often talk about getting stuck doing everything ourselves and the cost of sweat equity. The key question is simple. Is my time better spent elsewhere? I use a tool that cuts down on a lot of landlord hassles. And the wild part is, it's just $12 a month. It handles rental screenings, rent collection, maintenance requests, and accounting, all in one platform via a mobile app or desktop. It saves me time in ten or ten. It saves me time in ten communication and keeps me organized for tax season. It's called Rent Ready, and you can sign up for a six-month plan for just $1 with promo code BP 2025. Pro users get it for free because we believe in it. Just sign in through your pro account to get started. Rent Ready helps ensure on-time rent with

auto reminders, keeps communication professional, and lets you post listings to multiple sites. Check it out. At RentReady.com slash Bigger Pockets. That's RentR-E-D-I.com slash bigger pockets. Before we get into the interview, today's quick tip is check the show notes. We've got a list for you 27 questions to ask a property manager before hiring them that comes directly from Matt and Andrew's experience doing this themselves. That is free for you. Thank you for listening. We love you.

All right, let's get into today's show. Andrew Matt, welcome back to the Bigger Pockets podcast, live for us, but not for the audience, from Lake Tahoe at our winter retreat in Go abundance. Today we're going to be talking multifamily, but more specifically, operation of multifamily. So let's start off for people that don't know the difference between a property manager and an asset manager. How would you describe that, Andrew? So a property manager is somebody who does the day-to-day stuff. An asset manager is big picture set the direction. So think of like a cruise ship. If you've ever been on a cruise, there's the activities director. And that's the person that works

like 18 hours a day. You're running around. They're making sure the shows are on time and dinner starts on time and the right number of chairs on the deck and all that little minutia that is important to making for a good cruise. The asset manager is the captain of the ship. He's saying, all right, we've got a storm coming in. We're going to shift a little. We're going to shift 100 miles to the right. Go around the back side of the island. We need to make sure we get to this port in seven days. He's looking big picture making sure that's going to happen. That's kind of a difference between property management and asset management. And it's not a perfectly clear cut delineation, especially if you're doing smaller stuff like fourplexes and 10 units. It is kind of a more of a

spectrum. And if you're self-managing and you're just starting out with their first fourplex, you're doing both jobs. But as you scale and grow, the difference becomes more and more important. And as an investor looking to create wealth, you're really going to want to focus on that asset management side. That's where the real money is made. So do you feel? Phil, most investors are the asset managers themselves, or is there a size of complex where you are actually going to leverage out asset management as well as property management? I'd say most investors are the asset managers themselves. And then once, you know, for example, I was my own asset manager until about 1,000 units. And then once we got into over 2,000 units,

I started bringing on an asset management team to help with that because it becomes a full-time job. even if you're not involved in the day-to-day property management, just managing, if you've got 10 fourplexes scattered around town, even if you have an admin person to help with collections and filing invictions and all that, you still are going to be dealing with the lender. You need to decide, am I going to sell this one in one year? Am I sold this one in two years? If I do sell it, what am I going to do with the money?

And so there's a certain point. I think, again, I was my own up until 1,000, and I waited way too long. You know, I was, and if I finally graduated, It was like Pinocchio. My business was like Pinocchio. It finally became a real business when I added some people to help me with that stuff. I remember that. We were actually, I maybe here in Tahoe when we were having that conversation about what it would look like to leverage off some of the work without leveraging off the actual vision, which I remember was like, in your head you saw it as if I hire someone I'm giving up complete control as opposed to you're still creating the vision, but they're executing on the vision that you've now cast for them. And I got to say, folks, his career has exploded since then. And I'm going to take it. as much credit as I can. No, you deserve some of the credit for that.

You seriously do. We had a couple good, good long talks, and that kind of helped. Well, I certainly benefit from it because we partnered together on property. I can't say that I'm not eating out of that same trough. I sort of throw one more thing out that Andrew is, you've certainly rubbed off on Andrew a bit, because he's now made two analogies in the first five minutes of the podcast. You've made zero so far. So we've got a cruise director analogy, and we've also got the Pinocchio Amariel Boy.

Yes. He jumped up to an early lead. Got some hatching up to new David Green. So I will glad to keep score on the analogy scoreboard here during this podcast. All right, Matt, I'm going to turn it to you now. God, in the last, you know, several years of real estate, we've seen so much stimulus. We've seen so much people that were getting into the syndication game in particular. They had no experience at all.

And the rising economy just, it really was this perfume that covered up a lot of stink. At the first minute, we see a little bit of interest rate rising. It's like, oh, my God, like this is what's been going on the whole time, right? the lipstick's coming off the pig in a lot of these cases. What is your perspective on how important operations are compared to just acquisitions, which is where a lot of the attention is? Yeah, I mean, you know, the last 10 years has simply been get into the game. You could have bought a multifamily and literally done nothing with it.

Let it run into the ground. Let tenants, you know, completely not pay the around. Let things go willing. Let the grass grow three feet high and sold it for a ton more than you bought it for. I mean, really anybody could have gotten into this game. And guess what? Anybody did. And there are lots of folks that are, you know, for 20 grand or whatever, willing to teach you how to invest in real estate or whatever. And a lot of people did pay that kind of money to get into the multifamily game. And so now it's simply been get into the game and get a deal and crush your fingers and you can sell it in a year for a lot more than you paid for it. That's worked up until recently with rising rates and with, you know, the sellers can't just name their prices when they go to sell properties anymore. And so we're going to get back down to good old fashioned. in real estate investing where you're going to have to invest for cash flow in that appreciation. And if you're going to invest for cash flow, if you're going to make an investment and do a

thing that is going to reward you for its performance, you have to have good asset management on the asset. You can't just cross your fingers and allow the rising pie that's risen for 10 years, right? Let's all high five. That's been great. It's helped everybody out, but that's not the future. Cash flow is going to be king, I think, for the foreseeable future. and to make that happen, you need asset management,

you know, KPIs, business plans, you know, well-run properties. You might not sell a year after you buy it. You know, one thing I've noticed, when you understand the fundamentals of real estate, first up, the whole thing gets so much more simple than when you ask for a blueprint of, well, what am I supposed to do? Tell me exactly what to do.

If you understand that apartments are like the value of them or commercial property in general is a function of two pieces. You've got a cap rate and you've got N-O-Y. and you can't control the cap rate and you can't control the NOI. That's very simple. Now there's things you can't control the cap rate much like you can't control the wins

but there are, you can look at wind patterns and sort of like chart your course in a direction that will favor you. Yep. But ultimately you can't control that versus NOI would try to be like the guys in the bottom of the boat rowing.

I'm trying to catch up on analogous. You're smoking way way in. I got a limited bun pigs going on and you got a lot of them. You got two factors that determine the value of a commercial property. Then if you go within an OI, there are two factors that control that. You've got income and you've got expenses. It simplifies things. So operations is a lot about just the art of how do I minimize expenses and how do I maximize income? Really that simple.

So on that behalf, when we know that's the only part that you can control within multifamily real estate and it's so important. What's your thoughts, Matt, on if this and if you should self-manage or if you should leverage something that important to a third party? So I did, what I did, but I I first got involved in real estate, I did not go straight into it. There actually are the things you can invest in besides department buildings. And so I got started investing in single families and small multis and work my way up through that. And there was a point where Liz and I were running 115 units with a small crew ourselves out of Trenton, New Jersey. And so we self-managed for a very long time. And it can be done. It was in essence a full-time job for me and a small team to do. But the money that we made doing it, because we charged ourselves a property management fee was enough to keep our lights on and keep our family fed and live a fairly good lifestyle. But there was a fulcrum that there's like a decision point where we were buying a 49 unit that was not in Trenton. It was a good bit away from there. So it would have forced me to have to start up a new PM company get a new market. And that's

what I wanted to do. But my wife who normally has the better idea than I do said, you know, let's try hiring a new PM to run this. And we did. And they did a phenomenal job. I still believe we probably would have done better, but they did good enough to keep the asset running. And with good asset management tactics, the property did very, very well.

And that enabled me to scale. But so I think it'd be getting, for those listening to this that don't have two, three, 400 units of, maybe have a duplex, right? If you have a duplex and you want to eventually do this real estate investing business full time. Managing yourself, it could be a lucrative enough business to feed your family, keep your lights on for now. And it'll also really help you develop the parameters of management because I learned the ins and outs of management in doing it myself.

And eventually I ended up giving it up to another party, but it taught me a ton and it also fed me very well while I did it. All right, Andrew, throw into you, in your perspective, what are some of the pros and cons of each option? Yeah, Matt mentioned some of of the pros. One is if you do it, scale it well enough, it can become another income stream, right? So it can be a balancing factor, a stabilizing factor. Another, another thing that's often listed as a pro is that you have more control, and that is true. But the assumption there is that control and also that you care about your property more than anybody, right? So the assumption there is, well, if I have control and I care about it more than anybody, then I'm going to do a really good job. Well, caring doesn't equal

competence. If my wife needs surgery for something, I'm not going to walk into the OR, be like, hey, Doc, you know what, I care about her more than you. Let me take this. Yeah. No, I want the best, he could hate my guts, but if he's really good at that surgery and he's going to do it right, I want him to do that surgery. So that's kind of a myth of carrying equals competence, and it doesn't. But if you have the skills to go along with it, then yeah, that's a really good combination. On the flip side, some of the cons, property management is one of the most high headache businesses. You're basically running a giant HR firm. Like all you do all day long is deal with people problems and payroll and then delinquent tenants and evictions and courts and all

that. And it doesn't pay that well. It's a very low margin high stress business and it can be really draining. The people I know it that I know that do it, you know, definitely. definitely say that. And also, that's something to keep in mind. Property management is a separate business from real estate investing. So you are running two businesses if you decide to do that. You know, how do you make a decision? We could do an hour-long panel on the pros and cons and really dive into that. It depends on what your end goals are, how many units you have. If you've got one fourplex, you're going to learn some stuff from self-managing that in the beginning. So I would recommend self-manage. Where do you make the transition? That's tough to say. Again, it's a spectrum.

It's kind of like if you're a vegan and you're into CrossFit, how do you decide which one to talk about first? It's going to be different for every person and it depends on the situations. You guys are digging deep on this analogy thing. Both you too. I mean, really, you're very competitive. I'm really enjoying as a spectator's sport watching the analogy back and forth. All right.

So on that note, Matt, when it comes to finding a property management company, if that's something that you're looking to do, what advice do you have for how to find a great company? Well, what's interesting is you could, Just, you know, look it up through your friends at Google, you know, just to, you know, Google PM companies in Albuquerque, New Mexico or whatever. But likely, if you're buying a property and let's pick Albuquerque because it's a fun name to say as the market that you want to invest in, like you likely got to the property that you're looking

at through other leads you have, probably a realtor that you're working with, probably maybe a mortgage broker that's local, maybe an attorney, maybe other real estate investor friends you have through meeting them on the Bigger Pockets forums, right? So you ask for referrals. You talk to other people that are already active or already live or present in that market. And then you look for leads, right? You know, and then you're going to want to also find out that, you know, what do they manage, right? Because if a property manager tells you that they can manage the strip center that's down the street from your property, and they can also manage the, you know, duplex you're buying in Albuquerque, and they can also manage a hundred unit.

department building that's down the street, that's the wrong property management company. Those are three very different entities that manage things like that. So you want to make sure that their sweet spot, their core, they're, you know, an alpha analogy out, the Goldilocks of them, right, not too hot, not too cold, just right, is the asset that you have, right? You don't want them to be everything to everyone because property management's not that. There is a level of expertise that they need to bring to the table for the property that you're buying.

So, Andrew, when you find a company that you think could be good and you're looking to Vettum, what are some questions that you'd recommend people ask those companies? We've got a whole long list of questions, and we can provide a document with like, we got like 20-something of them. We can provide a link to that in the show notes. But some of the main ones, and Matt alluded a little bit to this, is, you know, what is, what is their background? Is it a management company that just started two years ago? And are they a little green and inexperience, or are they been around for decades? And the founders, where did they come from? You know, were they, you know, ex-engineers?

Because in the end of the round, I don't want to trust those guys. Yeah, or, you know, for example, the management company that we hired was founded by two executives in a much bigger management company that kind of got fed up with the corporate culture, said we could do better. They jumped out, started their own and have done a really good job. So kind of what is the background of the founders? Matt, you touched on this, asset and class specialization. You don't want to hire property management company to run your, your, you know, your, you know, your 10 unit when their focus is self-storage. They're not going to have the knowledge and not going to have the efficiencies and they may not

even care. Some management companies will take on assets they shouldn't just to get the revenue, but they're not going to do a good job with it. And also, if you specialize in C-class properties, don't hire an A-class property management company because they will run your C-class way more expensive than it's able to support. And there's very different ways of running those. So it's not just self-storage and multifamily, it's also class. You also want a management company that ideally specializes in your market.

There are some good national-level property management companies. My preference is regional ones. So, for example, the one we use, they only do the Southeast United States, so their footprint matches ours. They've got like 26,000 units, so they're big enough that they have efficiencies of scale, but small enough that I can call the owners of the company on their cell phone. if there's a real issue and I need to get somebody. So, you know, I'm asking questions, what, what's your footprint? How many units do you have? How many units do they have in your

sub-market? Right. So if a company has 10,000 units in Dallas and you're giving them a property in Lubbock, but they've never managed in Lubbock, they're not going to be good in Lubbock. Number one, they're not going to take the time to go out there, but two, they don't know the market. It's a very different market. So those are some of the, some of the question. And another one that is critical that I think a lot of people don't think to ask is really feel them out for, you know, what, ideally, you know, Mr. Mrs. Property Management Company, what kind of relationship do you like to have with the owners of the property? Because if they're the type of property management company that wants you to go away

and just read your report once a month, that's not going to work. That, to me, is a huge red flag. You want a property management company that sees you as a partner, so that you can work together and grow together and build a relationship. And that, to me, is one of the biggest keys. And like I said, there's a whole lot more questions beyond that. But when I sit down to interview property management company, those are some of the things I'm asking multiple questions to find out about.

Matt, when it comes to hiring team members, so maybe like we're talking about what Andrew did when he started to scale so that he could get some of the stuff off of his plate that he was all doing himself. What are some things you've learned over the years? We're going to talk to both you guys about this. Advice for other people that have some small multifamily or they have some large multifamily. They've been doing everything themselves. They're burning out or they want to scale.

They want to go more. They're hearing us talk about, I want to be a real boy. Real. Can't steal someone else's analogy, thank you. Disqualified analogy reference. Thank you. Sustain. Andrew just objected off.

Your honor. Objection. Foul. Overused. Foul. Thank you. All right. So what are the things that you think people need to look for when they're hiring or be aware of?

Well, it's, it's, it, their property management and asset management are people businesses and so people don't work at jobs forever. And so as a property management company and as an asset manager as well, you're going to be constantly hiring. I mean, you know, Andrew, you can say both in our, you and I own multifamily properties. It's always, well, this maintenance technician quit or the, the, this site manager is, you know, you know, found another job or the leasing agent left or whatever. So there's constantly the effort of replacing seats on the PM side. And so there's the conversation of, okay, is this person, if I'm self-managing, you know, maybe when I hired a new maintenance technician, right? So what do they bring to the table?

When I first hired, one of my first hires was a maintenance technician, and it was all about, I need somebody with a truck and a lot of tools on it. They can fix a lot of different things that knows a lot of different stuff. the jack of all trades with a truck and a lot of the tools they need for those trades in the vehicle. So if you are self-managing, that is maybe something you want to consider. So you're not beholden to hiring third party contractors every time you want to, like, you know, hiring a road to router every time you want to get a plumber, you know, your toilet backs up. It'd be much better to have your maintenance tech with a plumbing rooting machine that you can do it himself.

it'll be a tenth of the cost of what a plumber is going to charge. So I think it's about just finding the right person to fit in the role that you got open, right? So for self-manage, it could be maintenance technician or somebody that's got bookkeeping background that could be your site manager, your office manager to, you know, collect rents, bill out rents, those kinds of things. And then, I mean, you know, Andrew, I know that that's something that we've talked about before with regards to hiring, you know, asset managers we've had to do it. I don't know you've done it too.

For team members for larger companies that are hiring, you know, field reps or asset managers for not property management, but next level, right? Yeah. And I say one of the most common mistakes that I see large and small is somebody hires somebody for property management and then expects them to do asset management, right? If you've got a leasing agent that's running, so that, you know, I'll give an example is when I, one of the first people that I brought on board was an, admin and she started helping with some leasing and, you know, dealing with tenants and all that kind of thing. And a lot of times what happens is people bring on that person or a leasing agent or even a property manager if you're, you know, I had 100 units or whatever that might be. And then say, okay, cool. This person's got it. I'm out. And now what you've done is now you've

made that property manager and asset manager. And that is not what you hired them for. And it's probably not their skill set. So that's something to be aware of. So that's something to be aware of on your side, on the investor side. It's a very tempting thing to do. But when hiring team members, what we found is skills and experience are secondary. Number one is attitude in culture and fit. And when I say cultural fit,

it's not only to you and your team, but also to your properties and your resident. So Matt, you were talking about maintenance people. You know, that's what everybody does. Okay, I need a guy with a truck and he's got the tools and he actually shows up on time. Okay, that is a plus. Yep. And, you know, he's been a maintenance guy for 37 years and he's H-FAC certified.

Great. Yes. I'm going to hire him. But if he smells like a three-day-old subway sandwich that's been left in the car in the summer and he's rude to the tenants, that's going to backfire on you because he, that maintenance person, actually has more face time with a residence than almost anybody else in many cases, right? I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah. So you're not just hiring for skills. Skills are important. It's not like check it out the window and hire anybody that smiles nice, but you have to have the right attitude and demeanor. Same thing with a leasing person. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to a

restaurant and either the concierge or the waiter just was like so friendly and amiable and small. I'm like, I want to hire this person and teach him how to be a little. a leasing agent. Because that, I mean, yes, you have to have the right location in your property. You have to have the right amenities. But the number one thing is the feeling. People remember feelings, how you make them feel. And so when someone walks in the door and they're greeted by a smile or, you know, maybe if you got a four unit, so your leasing person is meeting them at the unit to give them a tour, if that person that you added to your team gives that prospective resident a, a great personal experience and they were helpful and they were smiling and all that.

It doesn't matter if they know the difference between pick tailing and aluminum wiring versus using colar outlets. That's great, but that's not going to make the biggest difference. So whether you're looking for a leasing agent, property manager, maintenance, any of these positions, again, whether you're hiring directly or they're part of third party, number one thing, is attitude, culture, and demeanor. You can't teach that stuff. That is inherent. You can teach skills. And some of our greatest team members that today I just can't imagine living without came to us with zero multifamily experience, but they had an attitude of curiosity,

of learning and of friendliness, and just wanting to serve people. That's something that's very valuable for the listeners who want to get into this space or any space in real estate, really, to understand, we tend to look at this stuff where I need a mentor, I need someone to teach me what am I supposed to do as if once you have the knowledge, it all just fall into place. But the people we know that are successful at this, YouTube, neither one of you are people who just have information but your buttholes. You don't know hardly anyone who's really, unless they're just like incredibly savvy and they can get away with being a jerk. It's very rare that you see that, right? In general,

you don't see successful people that aren't good with other people. And so having that ability to make someone feel good, you get people to feel comfortable trusting you, like raising money, I don't think, Brandon and I were talking about this, when somebody brings an operating agreement to you or a private place of memorandum,

and they're like, here's the prospective deal. Not only do you not know if it's going to work out, like they said, you can't even know if they just made up those numbers. Like, how do we ever go back and verify what they're, you don't have the skill to do that. otherwise you probably wouldn't be the LP in the deal. You are trusting the human being the feeling that they give you. And then if you're smart, the track record that they have.

So learning those skills is it's kind of like the cap rate versus the NOI. Cap rate plays such a bigger role in the property's value going up than the NOI. But the NOI is a thing you can control. You can control skills. But if you can get the people skills down, it has an astronomically larger impact on the value, just like if you bought a property at an ACAP and a, compressed to a two cap. It almost doesn't matter what happened with the N-O-I. It's so much bigger. Successful people we see, especially here and get unlucky right there. But yeah.

Well, yeah, I mean, that doesn't happen. The way that the math works, that would be more valuable. Yeah, the bottom line is just, you know, don't be a jerk, right? It's just people skills and being able to take care of people and address their needs and, you know, like, think the big picture is really one of the largest assets out there that any business owner can have. The rise of the tech savvy investors here. You don't need a huge team. are tons of overhead to manage rental properties. Just the right tools. So, I want to tell you about how I use rent-ready to get ahead.

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that, you know, it was always late for your calls. You can use little cues about like, well, I'd set my property manager at email, and it took them four days to get back to me. And every week I have a Zoom call with them, and they show up 15 minutes late. They're always scattered. So like just all bottoms, that bottom lies.

organizational skills, right? A property manager is like literally the best juggler out there. They're dealing with, you know, I got collections coming up. You know, rents doing the fifth. And I got, you know, those three H-FAC units stopped working. And that's head of what I'm going to call them back. Say me a minute question. So a property manager needs to be in the middle of so many different things

and handling like a fairly large to-do list. And the two to-do list could be a lot of different things all at once. And so they need to be a hundred. percent organized and there are little tests you can use to, you know, to figure out how organized somebody is or signs you see for people that are unorganized, right? They need to be as they're one of the best needs for people, persons, and warm. Like I look at like the property managers that I have that are really good at what they do. The tenants view them as almost like the parent of the apartment complex. It's like your apartment building, this is the mom or the dad that I go to and

they treat the tenants like they're their children in some ways because they keep them under their wing they look out for them they do everything they need when the tenant needs something they're 100 put their right on it um and uh and and that and i think that like on top of that on top of being the you know it just like a good parent you've resolved good need you've resolved needs oh your hvc's not working that's fine well you also need to be able to be disciplinarian well you didn't pay your rent this month and so i'm not going to just allow you i'll get a you'll get it back to me next Mike, you can't be a pushover as well. And they've got to have that, you know, kind of no-bious attitude when it comes to being a property manager. This is like a mix. You must have to be like,

like, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, in some ways to kind of be willing to go tough on a tenant and not let them walk on you, but also be likable and respectable to well, the tenant is going to respect you and know that you've got their back and they're going to want to stay there for a long time because they know that you're going to take care of their stuff, you know, as it comes up. Yeah, I mean, I can, when I look at our best, property managers, there's, I'd say like eight distinct traits. One, good organization skills. And Matt, like you said, they're handling invoices and payments and checks and evictions and

never drawing them a ball off. And yeah, and requests from their owners and all kinds of stuff like that. You know, being very responsive to resident requests. Even the ones that are annoying or seem silly or petty, because it doesn't matter. To that resident, it's important. and the ability to separate those two things. You can still be annoyed. I just don't want the residency that.

Give them the respect. Nat, you touch on this, a balance of heart and no BS. Yeah. Empathetic, kind, understanding, but rent is due, just like the mortgage is due and the property taxes are due. I've seen a lot of investors get into trouble by being too empathetic. There's a difference between, well, there's a difference between empathy and sympathy, right?

Empathy is understanding the person with their shoes. And sympathy is more of like, oh, yeah, okay. And like, well, getting involved. Yeah, it's getting involved. That's better. Yeah. So sympathy is getting involved. Empathy is more understanding.

And sympathy is like, well, all right, it's okay. You know, I understand. You can just make up the rent next month. Guess what happens next month. Oh, you know what? I got a flat tire. Because you've got them had to treat you. This is, yeah, you're angry.

This is why it's advantage anymore. It's treat, yeah, as, yeah, as you've had that. I am too nice. I'm that guy. But when they told me, well, my car got a flat tire, I believe them. Okay, I'll let you pay me next month. And we'll just, you know, attacking our next month's round or whatever. And so, there are certain people that are cut out to be property managers that are able to approach the world with a hammer in one hand and a hug in the other.

You know, and so they, and for me, I always the hug guy, very, very big heart and everything like that. But I'm not one that is very good on the hammer side with tenants and everything like that. So I got walked on quite a bit as a property manager. So I don't do it anymore. Two of you should team up because you're the hugging. He's the hammer. He is. That works at all.

Right. Right. So, and the fourth thing is they got to be able to build good rapport with other team members. Yes. Whether, again, yours or third party, ideally they treat the property like it's theirs. I've got some managers that, you know, it's amazing. I swear they act like they own. wanted more than I do. And it's amazing the difference that that makes. And when we try to recognize

an honor and reward that, it's not just, oh, cool, I got this person here. Yeah. Yeah. And we encourage that and give them more autonomy to do things. We have a manager that just decided, well, you know, I think that building, inside that building would look better, a different color. She went and painted it. And the regional was like, what are you doing? And I was like, no, no, no, no. We trust her. And guess what? We, that looks great. Do the rest of the property. No, again, you know, may not everyone is cut out for that kind of autonomy, but someone who, like, well, they could still bring it up to you. Exactly.

Exactly. Get this thing and get this thing and get permission. And she knew we were, in this specific example, she knew we were okay with her doing that kind of thing because she's so good. But that's exactly right. It's the sense of ownership, like, just noticing this would look even better if we painted out this. I want to do like a 90-day challenge where people who are struggling to get a promotion or make more money or have success. Just say, for 90 days, treat everything of the person you wear.

work for. If you live in a property, treat it like it's your own. If it's your boss and you think if this was my company, what would I want to do? And see if that doesn't absolutely change your life. You know what? You're right. Because when we, that's awesome, when we have a resident that like comes out and they pick up the trash around the unit, even if it's not from theirs and you go in their unit and it's sparkling clean. Everything's nice and organized. We are definitely more inclined. Give them a little bit. Oh, yeah. 100% just because of it's like magic. Yeah. Make people like you and you make people trust you. Like you said the best point there. When she took it upon herself to paint it, we said, go ahead and paint the rest of the property. And you immediately thought, how do I give

them more responsibility, more freedom, more autonomy, more all the things we say we want? Like, we all complain about the micromanaging boss, but we don't ask the question of ourselves. Like, well, what might I be doing that makes them feel like a need psychromance? Yeah, it's always a shift in responsibility onto someone else. That's why I would encourage people to treat things like it's their own because when you're the person who's, you know, the king, heavy is the head who wears the crown and you're, well, you're worrying about everything. When you see the person willing to carry the burden with you, it automatically opens your heart to where you want to give more. Dave Osborne told a story of how Matt King, who's now the CEO of Goldbundance, became his first

assistant where Matt said, hey, your wife's coming to visit you. I'm going to go clean up your hotel room before she gets here. Matt could have used to say, it's not my wife. I don't care. But he's like, if my girlfriend was coming, I would want her to coming into a clean hotel room. I'll treat Dave like I would treat myself. And lo and behold, he's now running Dave's empire. I think the missed point there is that Matt knew that Dave's room was going to be an absolute mess. It's funny. It's like, listen, I know your room's a train wreck right now.

And so I'm going to go and help me. Right. That's the intuition was there. I mean, Krista, she's smart enough to say, hey, so this thing was added to your calendar today. She'll send me a text message to say, make sure you see this. She knows me. I will not check my calendar. I look at it in the morning and I see what I have to do and I'm done.

And like that's part of putting yourself in other people's shoes and take your responsibility is thinking like if I was that person, this is what I would need. So I think that's really good advice. You have about two or three more, I think. Yeah, number one, we kind of touch on this really, someone ideally is really engaging with residents and the rest of the team member. Also, somebody, and this is when you're starting to scale up and get a little bit bigger. Somebody that can help guide the team, right? So you get a manager. Well, then then you add a leasing agent. Now you've got a maintenance supervisor and then you add a maintenance tech or a groundsperson or whatever. that property manager is someone who can say who can have a 10 minute meeting with the maintenance person in the morning say here's our work orders let's prioritize them go out take care of that and then she checks it here he checks in at the end of the day which one's got done which one didn't why you know hey leasing agent hits do this and can coordinate and do all that and then finally somebody that is good at delegating work because the property manager can fall into the same trap that

we as entrepreneurs fall into of we're going to do it all ourselves because that's what got us here and that's actually something we've had to help some of our property managers grow through is no look you've got a lot of units let's get you a leasing agent and delegate this or you shouldn't still be you know doing these invoices day after day after day this other person should do it and then you just verify that they did it right so ideally it's somebody that can delegate work so that they can grow and hopefully move up high as you scale. Hopefully they can move up and scale with you. Now, Matt, we had talked briefly about, you know,

Andrew mentioned a leasing agent should be a friendly personality. He'll see people sometimes working in retail like, oh, you should be the one answer in the phone and people call or meeting them. What are some other things that make someone a good leasing agent? You know, there's leasing agents need, the best leasing agents I've seen are ones that are able to, like a bit of a drive and they're somewhat financially motivated and the best thing to do with leasing agent is offer them some sort of a bonus even if it's not like a typical realtor. We've got like a half a month's rent or something like that is commission.

Well, at a larger property management company, it may be, you know, just something smaller than that because that leasing agent may lease, you know, eight or nine units every couple weeks. So it can be, it can add up to be something significant. So it's got to be someone who sees that the more I hustle and the more I grind and, you know, help fill this property up or help keep, you know, vacant units full, the more money I'm going to make. They have to have that alignment, right? And that, you know, 50 bucks, 100 bucks, whatever per sign lease that they get as their incentive on top of their base salary needs to mean something to them. They have to be hungry for that, right? I also find that

they're typically, you know, charming. They're good closers, right? You can't allow a tenant that, oh, I'll just, you know, come back in a week or whatever. It's going to have a good leasing agent's going to say, hey, listen, I've got three other showings this afternoon. Don't you think you want to turn in a rental application. Like, isn't this unit great? They've got, and finally, they've got to think that what you are providing is the best thing since sliced bread, right? Like, they've got to, like, we had a pool here in this property, or, you know, there's a grocery store down the street. There doesn't have to be a property with a pool, even if they're showing your four family. They could, they're just, you know,

listing amenities, know the area. Did you know they're building a, like, a new, a new shopping mall down the street, or did you realize the gas station's adding, you know, a quickie mart or a, you know, drive-through car wash or whatever, they got to know the area and let the tenant, the prospective tenant, know, this is a good area that I'm moving into it. This is a good unit I'm moving into. They've got to know the amenities as well, on-site, you know, just they've got to be an expert for the property and make everything they're talking about the most exciting thing ever. So I think those are great, you know, attributes for leasing agents and also good of following up, good at closing because not everybody's going to follow up on a, is going to sign a lease right then.

And so they've got to do follow through and reach outs and everything. And one more thing in the modern world, I just described a great leasing agent, but a stellar next level leasing agent is someone who's good on social media and can do Instagram posts for your property, that can do Facebook posts for your property that can like take ownership of your Google Pindrop, of the social media assets of your property as those are the next level stellar leasing agents. So speaking of social media, we were doing a weekly call with one of our property management teams, and I asked, where did these leases come from? She said, oh, this one, this one, this one came from.

These two came from TikTok. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean these leases came from TikTok? Oh, yeah, I do all these. So it turns out multiple times a day, she pushed these little TikTok videos out, and the property has this huge following. And some of her videos have got, and she's getting leases off of it. And I'm like, okay, can you please?

teach our other managers how to do this. And some of them are like, okay, great, I'll learn how to do this. I've got one that's like, I don't do TikTok. I'm like, all right, fine. I'm not going to force you to do it. So, yeah, social media skills. That was something that our whole team in business learned because that manager was doing it again, on her own without me even saying anything.

And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, you can get Lisa's off. Sure can. We have a, I'm often the person that someone in my sphere will call with the real estate question, like whatever it is, right? So frequently, I'll get old friends or people that are actually trying to figure out what apartment they should move into. And I'm just real estate guy. So they call me like, I know how to answer. Oh, yeah, that one right there.

To an apartment in my life, right? But I noticed that when they're in that point of am I going to go with, you know, the whispers, the lakes or the heights? They'll like create this list of all the amenities they have and then compare the rents. Like there's a deep analysis that most tenants are going to go into when they're picking where they're moving. because ideally they're going to live there for a while. They don't want to pack up and constantly. Okay, this was $2,800 a month, and it's in this location, but it doesn't have a pool and it doesn't allow pets.

This one does allow pets, and it's only $2,500 a month, but blah, blah, blah. They really put a lot of effort into looking at this. And when you're in a position like that, that you're that engaged in where you're going to go, I absolutely believe that a leasing agent that's following up, that's selling them on why they'd be happier in the Heights versus the Whispers or whatever is absolutely against. game changer. Like that is such a big thing when you're trying to make a decision and you don't want to make the wrong one. When you have that reassuring voice that's making you think, most people, as weird as this is, receive that as like, God must be telling me to move to this one.

Because this person called, like, we always give that credit. Sign. Yes, it's meant to be. Divine intervention. They followed up just as I was trying to figure this out. Now, you know, after you show them the apartment, they're probably going home that night to talk to their boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, and say, where do you want to move? There's a high probability that's what they're doing when you divinely intervene and call it 830 to just be like, hey, did you have any questions? I just, I really like to have you here. I thought we got along really good. Oh my gosh, they want us. We're welcome. I don't need a pet. We don't even have a dog. Let's go over there. Right. Like just that one little thing can absolutely make a huge difference.

To add on to that, and the reason for that is most people don't go the extra mile. And so when you do it is surprising to people, right? It's like, you normally don't get followed up with by like, hey, how was that? You know, like, hey, you had your oil changed here at this at my midas, you know, Louvre's shop or whatever. How was it? Were you happy? Hey, I don't get that phone call, right? And so when you do, you're like, hey, they actually, that's a good place. Oh, you know, I'm going to go there forever. And we'll lease that apartment because this person actually picked up the phone and called me, right? Matt, you made a really good point earlier that I think highlights the difference between asset management and property management. and when you said, talked about aligning your team members' interests with the success of the property,

you know, most property management companies, if you ask them, what should we pay this person? I'm like, well, market's between 24 and $27 an hour, so I will set it at 25. And that's kind of the answer you'll typically get. A good asset managers and say, okay, great, that's market. But, you know, if my property has a net operating income of $100,000 each year, I'm, hitting my targets. If it hits 120, I'm crushing it. So what if I set it up? So past a certain target, the property manager gets a certain percentage of every dollar above that. Well, guess what? Now their income goes up as yours goes up. And we've done that with a lot of our properties.

And it's worked wonders because the property manager know, hey, if I work extra hard on this, It's not going to just make some investors across the country or some dude in California more money. It's also going to make me more money. We have a property manager that makes more than the regionals above him because he has knocked it so far out of the park. And I am so glad to pay him literally double market because when you look at how much he's making us, it's almost irrelevant because he's making he's doing so well. So that is a good asset manager skill is to make sure, even if it's your admin person, find some way to align their success with yours so that you're always rowing in the same direction. So when it comes to maintenance supervisors, this is another pretty big piece because poor maintenance will make people not want to live there anymore. Like I think most people in general will stay where they are until something happens that disrupts their piece.

So the neighbor next door is too loud. Their first thoughts is probably like get managed to fix it. If it doesn't get fixed, I'm moving. Or something's broken that won't get fixed. Everyone has a tolerance. And then at a certain point, they just get to the more like, I have to leave to fix this. And those vacancies are very expensive, both because you're a leasing agent. Now you have to pay someone to go and refill it, plus the period of time no one's occupying.

It's vacant. And then the turn, right? You got to repaint and redo all this stuff. So maintenance supervisors can actually help to keep your expenses lower. What's two things that each of you guys think that you would highlight as like when it comes to maintenance supervisors, what are the most important things that you can recommend? I mean, I think we're going to operate on the base assumption that whoever you're talking about has basic maintenance skills. Like they know the difference between the Phillips and the flathead, which is about as far as I can get. So I don't have any better analogies than that.

Number one is eager to contribute. And what I mean by that is they are, it's not just, okay, I got these five work orders. As long as I get these done today, I'm fine. Well, maybe they're out working on work order number two, and they see that, you know, the next door, next resident over, their door just jams. Like, it's gotten, you know, absorbed the moisture and it doesn't fit anymore. So every time they see them coming out, like, you know, it'll be shoving their shoulder to their, Oh, hold on a second. They come over, adjust the hinges, adjust, oh, look, and get it fixed for them in like five minutes, right? Doesn't need a work order. And then they, you know, there's someone that is eager to help out the manager and just, just wherever, you know, things come out. One example I can think of is, you know, we have a maintenance supervisor that we recently hired, and he comes to our calls with a notepad and takes and has a list of things to go over and then takes notes on the things we talk about so that he can go follow up on them and get a take.

care of. And we never even, we never asked him to do that. I mean, he's just that eager to contribute and be a part of it. So that's huge. And then one other one is, I would also say, and they're kind of tied together, is that a maintenance person who understands it's a team effort. It's, you know, yeah, okay, he's got five work orders to do, but, you know, the, you know, he may have a contractor that on site that's, you know, renovating unit that he's got to, you know, make sure. the supplies are there and that the manager, property manager, is there to, you know, make sure he's got the supplies door. Because typically maintenance doesn't order their own supplies. Sometimes that's not the case, but often it's a team effort with, okay, we need this, the manager makes sure.

And just, you know, kind of being willing to step in and help out like wherever needed. And being on call is candidly probably one of the, you know, worst aspects of being a maintenance person. apartment complex because you know you're going to get call at 2.30 in the morning on Christmas that someone shoved a teddy bear down the toilet and now it's flooding the unit. And not that anyone's ever going to enjoy that, but somebody that was able to say, all right, you know, this is, this is part of servicing this community and things like this this are going to happen. And hopefully as a good asset manager, you'll make that up to them on the back end.

We've had situations like that and we'll send that maintenance person like a gift card. Like, go take your wife to dinner. Our property ruined your New Year's Eve. Okay, we understand. Sorry about that. And thank you for answering your phone and going and taking care. That's awesome. Yep. I did add into there. It's funny. It just seemed to be a common theme across the property management team that for the site manager, leasing agent, whatever, is a sense of ownership. And the way a sense of ownership shows up for the maintenance technician is things like, well, were, you know, 20 work orders back this month. And so that means that these 20, you know, tenants are waiting on me to do a thing for them

are now waiting and that's not okay. And so I need to pick up the pace. I need to knock out these work orders, whatever. You know, a bad maintenance tax is going to shrug their shoulders and say, well, you know, that's all when I get to it. Yeah, I get to it when I get to it. Right. And we've all seen maintenance techs that have that philosophy. And there's also the hustle maintenance technicians that are like, listen, you know, I need to, that's not acceptable.

these people need me, then that's a sense of ownership. And they really take, you know, showing up to the calls of the notepad, we've had maintenance text tell us, like, listen, we were giving unit turns, meaning like when a unit vacates, the on-site maintenance were the guys that were turning the units around. They came to us and said, hey, we need a little bit of help in that world on unit turns because a lot of vacancies show up. And they asked us for help because they knew they couldn't maintain their work order

flow and it was not going to be okay for the workholder balance to get way out of whack because they knew that that was something that was like ownership they knew they were responsible for that so they said can we bring in a little bit of short-term help to help us do some painting to help us do the trash out whatever and we said sure absolutely because we knew they cared that's why they asked for that and it wasn't because they didn't want to do the work is because their obligations were going to start falling off the plate yeah and there's one last thing i want to address so you know anyone listening is probably might be saying like that's great guys that the third three of you have all these wonderful maintenance person people. I'm just trying to get someone

to actually show up and do something on time. That's our problem too right now. You know, I mean, Matt and David and I are at the scale where we have these team members in place, but maintenance is probably the hardest position for us to fill right now. And we have unfortunately hired people that don't fit these characteristics we just talked about and we've had to let them go. So if you're sitting there going, well, that's great. You know, all these ideals, characters. I just want some character traits. I just want someone to show up. Yeah, we're having that problem too. It's not just you. Hopefully, you know, if the Fed does create more unemployment, hopefully one of the side benefits is that it'll get easier to find good people. But that's a

problem that we're having too. So if you're experiencing that, don't feel bad. It's probably not you. Everybody's kissing frogs. They're not. We talk about the ideal person. That doesn't mean that you get them on the first try or even the 10th try. It's often a actual skill of figuring how you find the right people, which is why you treat them so good when you have them because you want them to treat your property and they'll probably treat it closely to the way that you treat a lot of the time. Well, thank you guys. This has been fantastic and it's on a topic we don't really talk about very often because it's just been to buy as much real estate as you can, borrow other people's money, go in there fast, loose and reckless, just spray and prey and you'll hit the target a couple

times and you'll make a lot of money. And that target's getting a lot tighter and it's getting a lot harder. Kind of work in the future. That's exactly right. So before I get you guys out of here, Matt, where can people find out more about you? They can hear about me on our company website, derosa group.com, D-E-R-O-S-A group.com, or you can follow me on Instagram at the Matt Fairclough. Matt's also written a book for Bigger Pockets. What was that book? That was called Raising Private Capital, and that's something really exciting. And I think that investor relations and the way that you raise more money for your deals

and the way that you treat investors that you already have into your deals is going to be something that's going to become even more. It's always important, but even more important than the changing economy. So everybody should check out raising private capital at biggerpockets.com forward slash store. All right. And Cush, where can people find out more about you? Just search vantage point acquisitions. Website is vpacq.com.

Also, a colleague request me on Bigger Pockets so we can connect there. And if you've made it all the way to the end of this podcast and either you're someone who loves asset management or you're like, I really want to learn that, three out of our last four additional. to our team have come from the bigger pockets listeners. There are some amazing people who listen to this podcast and we are looking for another one. So if you'd like to come work with us on the asset management side of the business, please go to the website. There'll be a tab there and a link there to apply and I look forward to hopefully working with you. Yeah, and I can co-sign on that. Andrew is my multifamily partner. We buy properties together and the people that have come to work for us have been fantastic and have actually made a lot of progress with their own

portfolios as well. Like it's a really, really good way to learn when you're working for someone that's going to hold you to a high standard, teach you things to do things the right way, model for you the right way to approach it. And those habits that are developed are the stuff we talked about earlier with this, the attitude and the personality that you're bringing to the job. Matter a lot. So please, if you're into multifamily, consider reaching out. All right, guys, I am going to get you out of here. Thank you very much for taking time out of your Lake Tahoe to talk to multifamily with me and our listeners. And hopefully this helps a lot of people. We'll see you next time.

See you then. This is David Green for Matt, the scorekeeper Faircloth and Andrew the hamburger Cushman stealing all my analogies. Signing up. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K, copywriting is by Calico content, And editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.w.w.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk.

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