BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 743: Better Than BRRRR!? How to Make $200K+ on ONE Deal w/Janice Stitzer

Episode Date: March 23, 2023

The BRRRR method is one of the most celebrated, highly-effective real estate investing strategies the world has ever known. Never heard of it? BRRRR stands for “Buy, Rehab, Rent, Refinance, Repeat�� and is a simple framework to allow any real estate investor, no matter their skill level, to get into real estate investing for no money at the end of the deal. This down payment recycling system allows you to use the same amount of cash to build a real estate portfolio that’ll expand to infinity. And for a while, the BRRRR method was yet to be bested—until now. Janice Stitzer may have cracked the code. As a house-hacking California native, Janice was pushed out of the golden state right before the last crash when housing prices were high, cash flow was low, and traffic was at a standstill. She and her husband decided to boost their quality of life by relocating to Colorado, where they started a construction company and a BRRRR-ing empire. Then in 2008, when lending screeched to a halt, her BRRRRs died down. But some years later, a new idea hatched—the BRRRR 2.0. Using this simple strategy, Janice got a brand new short-term rental that cash flows like crazy, all while gaining $200K in equity before her first guest checked in. This repeatable system can be used by almost anyone and doesn’t require much experience. With just five properties, this “BRRRR 2.0” investing style could make you a millionaire. But you won’t know how it works if you don’t tune in! So, stick around! In This Episode We Cover: The BRRRR 2.0 method and how it unlocks MASSIVE amounts of equity  House hacking in expensive markets and the lowering your cost of living (even in LA) The BRRRR strategy explained and why it’s still one of the most profitable ways to invest The five things to look for when developing land or investing in new construction  Why you NEED a great general contractor at your side ANY time you plan on building  Short-term rental investing and why the cash flow beats consistent long-term rentals  And So Much More! Links from the Show Find an Investor-Friendly Real Estate Agent BiggerPockets Youtube Channel BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Pro Membership BiggerPockets Bookstore BiggerPockets Bootcamps BiggerPockets Podcast BiggerPockets Merch BPCON2023 Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Learn About Real Estate, The Housing Market, and Money Management with The BiggerPockets Podcasts Get More Deals Done with The BiggerPockets Investing Tools Find a BiggerPockets Real Estate Meetup in Your Area David's BiggerPockets Profile David's Instagram David’s YouTube Channel Work with David Rob's BiggerPockets Profile Rob's YouTube Rob's Instagram Rob's TikTok Rob's Twitter How to Succeed in Real Estate Investing Using the BRRRR Method 14 Questions to Ask Before You Hire a General Contractor 4 Vital Points to Consider BEFORE Getting Into New Construction Book Mentioned in the Show: Buy, Rehab, Rent, Refinance, Repeat by David Greene Connect with Janice: Janice's Instagram Janice's Website   Click here to listen to the full episode: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/real-estate-743 Interested in learning more about today’s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 743. I bought the land right. So the land was actually two parcels being sold together, but no one figured that out for some weird reason. I ended up selling half of the parcel or half of one of the two parcels. And so all in, I was at 381 and the appraisal came in at $565,000. That's very cool because a lot of people, like the journey to build this house very hard, but once you do it one time, it's like, it's actually not that hard to build a house again and again and again and again. And you built, you know, like $200,000 of

equity or something like that, just doing that. What's going on, everyone? This is David Green, host of the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast here with my partner in crime, Rob Obasolo, and our guest, Janice Stitzer with a fantastic episode that we are recorded together in Denver, Colorado. In today's episode, we get into all kinds of cool stuff, including leaving one market and getting into another market, moving your money from a market that might be crashing into one that you think will have a run, and a trending topic, new build construction, the N-B-U-R-R-R, N-U-B-R. New-B-E-R, I just coined it. Thank you for that.

You're welcome. That's what I'm here for. Before we get in today's fantastic episode, I want to tell you, one, listen all the way to the end if you've ever wondered about the origins of the word podcast. We solved that riddle for you today. And two, our quick tip of the day is going to be newer folks. Listen to how we talk in the beginning about how real estate felt way too expensive and we didn't want to get into buying it and we had all kinds of fears and we tried to save money on contractors and all these other ways that end up just costing more money and experience people. There's a ton to learn here for somebody who's

wanting to know about permitting zoning, new home construction, what goes into construction, and easy ways you can get ripped off by contractors or rip yourself off by doing things in the foolish way. Buttering bread and training dogs. All of that and more in today's show. Most investors spend more time chasing deals than reviewing their insurance. But a quick coverage check can be fast, easy and one of these smartest ways to protect and even improve your property's cash flow. As the months get colder, frozen pipes, icy walkways, and seasonal wear and tear can increase the likelihood of claims.

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because if you're going to hire a property manager, hire one that manages your investment like an investment. Today's guest is Janice Stitzer. This L.A. native started off in the finance world. Janice didn't find the magic in working at Disney and Fox. It was just a corporate job and she was built for more than that. Searching for alignment to her interest while house hacking and ADU in L.A., Janice landed a job at a discount brokerage in 2005, 2006,

where high volume and saving deals became the norm, but she saw the writing on the wall, about how the housing market was shaping up. She and her entrepreneurial-focused husband sold the house and moved to Denver in 2006, where they knew no one for a better cost of living and a chance to start a family. It sounds like the perfect way to get started.

Dennis, welcome to the show. Perfect. That's good. Thank you. Thank you. I read it right off of the notes here. I was going to say, did you just come up with that? All right, so take us back in time.

When you first sold that house in L.A. with the ADU, what did that afford you? What doors did that open? That was our seed money. We, it was difficult to get into that. It was when we purchased that house, we set out. It was, the ADU was the target. We knew that that was going to be our ticket to affording the house, much like you.

Living at all. Living at all in the Los Angeles market. And so we found it. It was a stretch. And that was when the most. mortgage market was giving out money. I mean, down payments with a credit card. And yes. Is this our first success story of the 2005 to 2006? You didn't lose everything, right? You actually got out, timed it well, put the money into the market, right? Yeah. So we bought that house

with a credit card down payment because we did not have any money. My husband just started a gym business. And I was, I had just recently graduated from college, new into the corporate world, trying to figure that out. And so we did ask around for, for family money, but they said no. They're like, you know what? You guys are an adult. And you, we're not going to do this. So, but that was what was going on at that time was free money. This is relatively significant. because I feel like back in this was 2005 or that was 2003-4 when we bought the property so back then ADUs weren't really nearly as popular they are no no this was a main house a garage and then the granny unit on top of that so it was it was a

needle and a haystack so to speak it was already built it was already built. It was turnkey. We really didn't have to do anything, not that we could have afford to do anything. But we had a network of people. And one of my husband's clients was like, this is a good one. If you don't buy it, I will. And so that was our sign. Like, we have to do it. We have to jump into this. However we can afford it, we're going to find a way. And this was pure necessity. You weren't intending to be a real estate investor. You didn't have a great plan. You just knew I want to live in L.A. It's really expensive. The only way we can make this work is if we buy a house with several units and rent out some of them and live in the other one. Right. There was intent behind it for sure. But even back then, 350,000 was a significant amount of money. That's what it cost back then? Yeah. Oh my goodness. That's crazy. This is why I'm always saying that housing always feels expensive. When you buy it, it doesn't matter. It always feels like you pay too much. And when you look back 20 years, 30 years, you're like, can you believe that we were only paying a million dollars for a house? Because houses are going to be four million dollars. It's true.

I was scared when I bought my house in L.A. I was scared to talk about it with people. I was scared to talk about it with my family. I didn't want them to know. I was terrified to tell them how much it cost. And back then it seemed expensive. And now it would be really, really cheap to buy what we paid for it. So, okay, so you got in early, quote unquote. Early. And then, yeah, fast forward two years. We were like, okay. My career changed. Not that it even had any footing. I was, like I said, you guys know, Fox and Disney tried the corporate thing out for my parents.

Check that box off. And I was like, I do not like this. It's not for me. Commuting an hour and a half, two hours one way. And that's about like a two mile drive. Yeah, I mean, if you guys are in no California, Encino to either Burbank or over at Fox Studios Across the Hill 405, that was a nightmare. I think that was really the straw that broke the camel's back.

I'm like, this is, can't do it. The quality of life sucked. It sucked. You don't want to raise a kid in that area. You were tired of the commute. You were doing well financially, but you weren't happy, right? No. So you decided to move.

Tell us how you made the way. the decision of where you were going to go? We were thinking of moving within the Los Angeles area. Everything that we looked at was a lateral move for double the price. So I said, you know what? We're just, why wait? At this point, I still tried to make it work. We put in a couple offers. And at that point, I was working for two real estate agents and things were nutty, completely nutty. And this was 05. 05. Yeah, this was the peak of the hottest market.

Even people think the markets we've had have been hot. They weren't as hot as it was in 05 or 6. Yeah. I mean, we were juggling 20 transactions at the same time. So I was already thinking we need to sell. You know, just take some money off the table. If we're going to start somewhere else, we're going to do it now. So were you reading any of the writing on the wall?

Were you seeing the teachers buying a million dollar homes and the no income loans? and at that time they were just building developments everywhere. I mean, everywhere you look, they were just putting up new homes. Like, could you just see this is going to end badly? It was just so easy to sell anything. And the brokerage I worked for, they're no longer around, but they were trying to basically have the commission be a total of 3%. So other brokers, agents didn't want to play that game.

You know, it's one thing if an agent decides, to take a little bit of a discount, but to suggest that the other buying or listing agent, you know, or the buyer's agent. So what you're saying is typically real estate transactions or real estate commissions, I should say, the agents are going to split whatever it is. So if it's 6%, one agent gets three, the other agent gets three. Your brokerage was trying to do 3% total, which meant that the buyer's side was going to be getting a significantly lower portion, 1, 1.5%.

Right. And it's hard to get a buyer's agent to show your homes if they're getting. half the commission that they could get on a different house. Right, right. But at that, you know, at that market and we were already, the internet was already established. People were starting to get on Zillow and Redfin, I think, was starting to be established maybe back then. So people had access to that stuff. That was a big change because it used to be, if you tried to give only a percent and a half to the buyer's side, none of the agents would show your house. So you would lose money. But when Zillow came along, the buyers see the house on Zillow. They tell the agent, go show me that

house and the agent's like what am I going to say no that's exactly what happened so that's open the door ethical but they of course they want to earn their standard or suggested standard commission so but things were just selling every multiple offer situations much like what we experienced the past two years so there's a lot of mirroring between now and oh eight I feel like so you knew it's time to get out of Dodge. How did you decide that Denver was the new place you were going to go? My husband. I would have never imagined leaving L.A. because I was born and raised there. I knew nothing else. And he's from the East Coast, moved to L.A. for a little while.

That's where we met. But he's been to Colorado numerous times and basically said, let's move. And it's not, the winters aren't that bad. cut to 20, 23, and it's five degrees outside. Yeah, I just went for a short walk outside and there's snow everywhere and my shoes were soaked and now my socks and my feet are freezing is recording. I'll let you borrow some socks. I appreciate that, man. What I thought the Rocky Mountains were rockier than this.

I'll give you the socks I'm wearing off my feet. Thanks, man. Some people give you the shirt off their back. You wear the socks off your feet. Did you wear two pairs of socks? Yeah, my feet are getting sweaty. But the first pair, you know, those are the sweaty ones. I'll give you the dry ones.

Right on. So what's funny is that you got out of a hot market in Southern California before it crash and then you got into the Denver market, which then became one of the hottest markets in the country a couple years later. That's because all the Californians are moving here. That's a great strategy. See where Californians are going is get there first. I've been saying that for a long time.

So when you got here, like what did you guys do to start over? You're no longer working for Disney and Fox. Your corporate career has switched. How did you guys decide to make a living? Well, my husband's a third generation contractor, so we've figured, okay, if anything, that will be our fallback. But we came to Denver with the plan of buying, refinancing, renting, and repeating. And at that point, Denver was already seeing REOs on the MLS. So- What's an REO?

Just for everybody. Real estate owned. The bank already took it back. put it back on the market on listing. So that process takes quite a while. And for that to, I mean, the MLS was full of REOs. So we were just, we were picking up properties, Denver bungalows for 75 to 100,000. And this is at the height of the foreclosure, was just crazy, right? Crazy. Did your husband think that you were paying too much?

No, I mean, you were coming from California. $450,400,000 houses, right? So these seem like they were free. Exactly, because we, coming from L.A., the main house we lived in was a thousand square feet. And these bungalows were about that. Per a quarter of the price. And this is where all the people who already live in Denver are like, yeah, you Californians keep coming here. Those houses would still be $75 grand if you guys didn't come here and drive up all the prices. So there's a downside to it as well.

Yeah, I think Denver people in Denver like that. everyone in Texas is like that. Everyone in Tennessee. Anywhere you go. Florida. Yes. All the places where people make the most money in real estate that California is make it unaffordable.

But it's not like California trended down either. No. That's true. Inflation, man. Everything goes up. So you come here, how many of these houses were you buying? Were you buying a couple of them or did you go all in? We were buying a couple.

So we were doing all of the rehabs ourselves. Okay. So you can only go so fast. We can only go so fast. We were, and for the most part, they were cosmetic. So not even replacing cabinetry. Paint, maybe new countertops, new appliances. We throw 15, 20 grand into it.

And even at that time, we were able, so we paid cash. We funded the renovations with cash, went to the bank and refinanced it. You were doing Burr. Before we called it Burr. Yeah. Did you guys have a name for it back then? I don't know. Fix it.

Just flipping a house? Fix and flip and rent. We weren't that clever to coin the term burr or else. Or else you would have. I'd be in your seat. Yes, that's right. It's all the coining of the term. So you, I want to know because you said that this was sort of like all the foreclosures

were already starting to pop up and everything like that. Was it really hard to burr because like where ARVs being affected by this? because I know a lot of people right now that are flipping and they're basing all of their values based off values from a year ago. And so there's a little bit of discrepancy there right now for a lot of flippers. Was that the case back then to you? You know, the price discrepancy wasn't that great because we were able to pull all of our cash out.

So for one reason or another, there wasn't this huge discrepancy where the delta between ARV and, you know, renovating was, I just think that there were too many people who were afraid to come back in. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. There's, there's some shell shock, some PTSD from you get exposed to real estate. You see the values shoot up. Everybody runs in there. It's like a gold rush. And then the bottom drops out. So many people were not wanting to buy. That's actually when I got into the market. I was, I didn't know any, I mean, I shouldn't say didn't know any better. I didn't buy when prices were going up, but I didn't have that same emotional fear of the bottom dropping out. And I stepped in into the

bottom. So what you were doing is you're buying these properties at 75 to 100 grand, putting 15 to 20 grand into them. They're appraising at what, like 130, 140 or so? 150, yeah. 50. And then you're doing a cash out. Yeah. Right. So you're getting 100% of your capital out. You go by the next one, which is a great efficient method, but it can only scale so fast because you have to do the rehab yourself. You have to wait to get money out before you go buy the next house. And you're using your own capital to do that. Exactly. At this point, we didn't, we didn't know what we know today with all the information that that's out there. Anything that we know what we read in books or maybe heard word of mouth. Yeah. That's crazy. Like there's so much information out there. This stuff gets

around so quick. It's different today. It's way different. And I think I don't know if maybe we were either too dumb to know. We were just like, okay, we're jumping in. We're doing this. Well, who wouldn't do that? You're getting 100% of your money out. You're getting a rehab house that's going to cash flow. You would think, but yeah, there was a, there was a lot of hesitancy in this market, in the Denver market. In what year was this for reference, roughly? 2006-7. Oh, okay. So it was like as soon as everything started kind of cave in a little bit. Yeah, we left a market that was still hot, came to Denver and it had already happened. So, and I think the other thing about the Denver market, which was unlike the LA market, was that the, the,

valuations weren't as high. People weren't able to use their homes like credit cards. Yeah. And that's the downfall of what was happening in the 08 crisis. All the heli locks that people were taking out. They were buying boats and cars and RVs and vacations and renovations and adding pools. Right, right. So that was the bigger. That was also the other thing driving California in that market, which wasn't as a parent here. So he had something that was working. What made you switch that up and get into something bigger. Well, the mortgage crisis, we did that numerous times and then hit a roadblock. One of our last transactions was, oh yeah, we came to the signing table. They changed our LTV, our loan to value. So we had to leave money in the deal. And that was, the lending just

stopped at that way. You weren't able to refinance to get your money out of these deals. We got the final one, which scared us, was the one that they changed the rules of the game. So you realize you could no longer continue as yes, yes. But you didn't lose money. You just left money in the house. Yep, yep, that's right? You've done this a few times, right? Where you leave, you may not be able to get the full ARV up or the full LTV. Yeah, but see, I think the difference is I knew if that happened, it was like, I made a mistake. The ARV wasn't as high as I thought. The rehab was too big. I think what you're describing is that the lending pipeline shut off to where you weren't going to be able to do cash out refies at 75% loan to be. Right, because the LA market came prashing down and the lenders

and the whole was that big. Too big to fail. Too big to fail thing. The big short. Yep. Yep. Exactly. That that whole debacle, just everything came to a halt. So what happened is everybody started going into default. Yep. The banks ran out of money to keep lending. and then they got scared that that was going to keep happening. So they were like, nope, don't lend at all. So even if you do the perfect burr, you're not able to even get the money out of the deal. There's not doing home loans anymore for investment property. At least they probably still had some primary residence type of thing.

So what did you move into? So we moved full on into construction. Okay. Like a business? And yes, establishing a business and going into that as our main, as are basically our W-2. Were you building for other people specifically? We were not building for other people. We went into roofing specifically.

Oh, okay. Because, yeah, at that point, builders weren't building. They weren't building new inventory. So we, the captive audience were people who were people who were able to stay in their homes. Yeah, so I was going to say, like, people always need a roof. Yep. Right? I mean, maybe there's like, you know, flippers that aren't doing as much renovations.

bathroom remodel maybe. But yeah, but you still need a roof just like you always need to get taxes done. There are certain kind of industries that I feel like regardless of what's going on. Well, there's a lot of snow out here too. There's a lot of snow out here. Because yours take a beating. It's not like we're working for California. You could have a literal hole in your roof in California.

It's only going to matter like four times a year. Yeah. I go, I go, what people have roofs that look like they're 50 years old. I'm trying to get you to patch that hole in your ceiling for like two years now, man. Just got a bucket. It's so much cheaper. It's like a thousand bucks, dude, to spend $1,000 and get some socks. So you start this construction business and you're moving out of the investing world into more of a business world.

So what role were you playing in the company at that time? At that time, I was the back end, back office doing what I do, what I know, the financial piece of it and managing everything else on the back end. So your husband's getting leads, giving bids, securing jobs, managing the workforce. They're going in there swinging the hammers. You're collecting payments, managing accounts receivable, logistics organizing. A full-fledged construction business. Right. How quickly did it take off or how quickly did it take to build that?

You know, it took off because here's why. In Colorado, we have hailstorms. And so it's almost. a yearly event. We can't predict it, but, you know, when insurance covers your roof and all you pay is your deductible. It's a great point. It's easy to get people to spend money when it's insurance money. Yeah. And you're improving, you're improving your house. So we did that for a while until I was, I said, you know, we probably should pivot. We can't rely on something that's so niche that is weather dependent because it's probably exhausting also right oh yeah yeah never get out of that and it's

somewhat seasonal too it's very seasonal it's very seasonal okay so you you realize you made some money i'm assuming doing this right so you've got some more capital set aside you've got your rental properties that are doing well how did you decide your next investing venture well along the way we did have a couple of other investors that we said hey you know we're in the denver market there's still a little bit of room. We can partner up or we can do some of the renovations. And we learned pretty quickly that if we didn't have an equity position, we're just earning a paycheck. So we did a few of those in between. And the other burrs that we kept, those were just passive. and that was just running in the background, basically.

And going back again to the information, I think that my zest for knowledge was, it just kind of whittled, I just went passive. And I had this belief that I needed to pay off the loan. And so I started getting aggressive with that. And for a while, that was really the goal until,

I think podcasting became a thing, starting to get new information. I'm like, oh, my God, why am I paying off this loan? Why am I doing that? And that was you were paying off the loans on all your burs? Yeah. Yeah. That makes total sense. So you sort of felt like you'd hit the end of the road.

You're like, well, we've done everything there is to do. What's left? Might as well just pay off the loans. And then you started listening to podcasts and all these ideas are coming out and strategies other people are using and opportunities in your mind. just starts firing with the possibility. You shake your head, like, what am I doing? There's more to be done, right?

So what was the next step? So the next step, after I snapped out of it, was I need to get, strip these properties, strip the equity out of these properties so that I could get the velocity of money going and acquire more. So that was my next step is we're going to do Burr version, 2.0 out of all of these properties, you know, strip the equity and just grab whatever I can. And once COVID hit, I was like, you know, we need to really change things up. I want to go into development. Wow. So this is kind of like the concept of return on equity, right, where you're

starting to realize, I've got all this money sitting in my bird and all my different properties. it's not making me any money, but it's there adding to your wealth. But you want to actually take the money out of that so that you can reinvest it into other things. That's sort of like one of your big revelations at this time? Yes, exactly. And just understanding the fact that if I strip the equity, grab that equity, and even if I have to leverage, if I get covered debt, that's really all that matters. you know, cash flow on top of the covered debt. So because during COVID, I think we all kind of went through a personal, I don't know,

revolution of whatever that might be. We all wanted to be closer to nature. Oh, yeah, for sure. I just went and bought 12 acres of land and I said, I'm going to build an A-frame. Just randomly? Like you were just like, I'm going to write 12-maker. Well, you know what it was? I was looking through a Dwell magazine, and I don't know if you guys have heard of

Den Outdoors. Of course, yeah. I think they launched during COVID. They did, yeah. Mike is the founder, and he was very, like, very fast about it. His designs are really, really, really, really good. They're awesome. I mean, to the point where that, however, his marketing team is, or whoever does his

renderings. Yeah, it's all in house. Yeah. I'm building a den right now. Really? Or we're like getting it quoted right now. But we want to build it. That's exciting.

Yeah, I saw that. I saw that article in Den. I'm like, I have to have that. And so that's basically, you know, one of those things where it was so quick. You hear people say that, right? It's this gut reaction where it's like, I have to do that. So when in, I had stripped all the equity out, sitting on some cash on the sidelines going, okay, well, let's do this.

Was it a problem pulling from your cash flow? Because I'm very much a big fan of the return on equity aspect, but since you're doing this full-time, you know, you're a full-time real estate construction investor, right? And so you're living off of the cash flow off of a lot of your burs, I imagine. We weren't. Oh, you weren't. We were. That's, it went to go back into paying.

Yeah, back into the loan. So, yeah, for a while, we were just, not thinking really. And I'm curious because starting at like 2005 and 2006, what was that interest rate journey? Like was it high back then? And then like, because I know 2020 was like really, really low, right? We're in the threes. We're in the fours. Obviously now they're paying the six or sevens. Yeah. On a couple of them, I had a refinance 3.0. So that's what happens when you buy into a market that's at the very lowest point. Not that I knew, but that's the opportunity that you have and the advantage.

So because the second time, the rates were just so low that you, how can you not? You can't afford not to you. Most investors spend more time chasing deals than reviewing their insurance. But a quick coverage check can be fast, easy, and one of these smartest ways to protect and even improve your property's cash flow. As the months get colder, frozen pipe, icy walkways, and seasonal wear and tear can increase the likelihood of claims. And traditional insurance companies aren't always built to handle these claims quickly or smoothly.

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Head to costsegregationguise.com slash BP to get a free proposal and see your potential tax savings. Were you doing cash out refies or were they rate in term to get lower payments? The second one was rate in term. The third one was a cash out refinance. Okay. So you bought 12 acres. You built an A frame on it. How did that property end up doing?

It's the same magic. We built it for 350 was the build cost. That's like the top number one questions that I get on my DMs. Like, how much this cost? I bought the land right. So the land was actually two parcels being sold together, but no one figured that out for some weird reason. I ended up selling half of the parcel or half of one of the two parcels. And so all in, I was at 381 and the appraisal came in at $565,000.

So it's the Burr. Build. Yeah. The build, refinance, rent, or in my case, STR. The burster. I love it. So this was a short-term rental that you built this A-frame. Yes.

I mean, there were some personal preferences of like, yeah, I get to enjoy this too. Oh, yeah, but I mean, it was used as a short-term rental when you weren't using it. Oh, yes. And that was the plan when you built it, or were you? That was the plan, because, again, I'm all about covered debt. and if someone else is paying for my mortgage, then I'm all over it. I mean, this was the original idea of the VRBO is you take a vehicle rental. You want to use and when you're not using it, you let someone else do it.

And yeah, back then, breaking even was like, you know, you get this house. Yeah. You break even. You're like, who someone else is pay. I have a free house. That's exactly. It's crazy that not only do we get a free house, we get cash flow on the free house with $200,000 of equity and then we're still picky.

Like, well, it used to be better. It used to be easier to do than it's doing right now. So were you nervous to get into the hospitality industry? Oh, yeah. Yeah, so tell me what that was like. That's part of the reason. I mean, that's actually the main reason why I joined Rob's host camp because I had no clue. I went for something that was so passive that I forgot about it, literally, to something

that I knew that was going to be so active. And I just wasn't set up for understanding what needed to be done from just, operational-wise. I didn't know the ins and outs of what was out there, the different hosting or even Airbnb was somewhat of a learning curve. So you did just fine, though. Like I know, I know about this property. It seems like it's doing okay. Oh, yeah. I mean, we actually only launched it this fall. So it did, this whole thing was built during COVID. And that was the other tricky part about this is that we basically overpaid for materials. We overpaid for lumber. For for logistics, transportation, everything. And it still worked out. That's very cool because a lot of people,

like the journey to build this house very hard. But once you do it one time, it's like, it's actually not that hard to build a house again and again and again. And you built, you know, like $200,000 of equity or something like that. just doing that. And I think the math on this is really crazy that if you just did that five times, you become a millionaire in real estate. Well, at the same time, we were building this. We also were doing another burster, but not build, a buy, renovate, the traditional sense. But we intended to short-term rental that as well. And that didn't do as well. I mean, not everything can be a home run. but that one was a nail biter

because it's just not the same valuation when an appraiser looks at a property that's built in the 1960s. That's when it was built versus something that's brand new construction. They just view it differently. You say it didn't do as well. You're not talking about cash flow.

Not cash flow. The value of it was worth when you were done with the renovation. The ARV. That is a good point. I think appraisers don't like seeing that you bought a property for $200,000 and the comp show,

550, they just don't like giving you that value. I mean, I don't like paying for it either. When I'm like looking at Zillow, I'm like, they just bought that for $500,000 less two months ago. And I'm always like, no, Rob, if it pencils out, it pencils out. Yeah, that's true. And you don't know how much money they put into it or how much time they put into it. But when you were building something, I do think that appraisers are more likely to, there's nothing making it hard for them to give the, they're probably going to give it more than the value of something that already exists because it's a new construction. So one of the things that I would think you guys seem like you're pretty locked in with being able to tell what it's going to be worth

when it's done but what about the cash flow did you have hesitation about knowing what kind of revenue that property was going to bring in again i'm going to defer back to rob because you know he built his tiny house and joshua tree and there's really not it's like a blue ocean strategy if you guys have ever read that book yeah there's not really a tangible there's no comps out there you're you're making your own comps yeah if you're the first you're the first you're the first you're the first one in a market like that, especially for a unique build. It's really hard, right? Like, you have, there's a little bit that goes back to the art and the science. Right now, at this moment, there's this church that I'm looking at that's been completely renovated. It's a six-bedroom

church. It's like 7,000 square feet. And I want to turn it into an Airbnb, but there is not a single comp that corroborates the success of what this church could be. But I know that, you know, if you build it, they will come, right? For the most part. And so I'm very close to pulling the trigger on that, but I'm just like, it's hard being the pioneer sometimes, but you just got to lean on your past experiences sometimes to sort of guide your decisions, I think. Yeah, there really isn't any guide. I will still refer to market comps and use that as my guideline as, well, if I have to leave money in the table or equity in the deal, then I'm okay with that. That's how I went into the A-frame with that point of view. Somebody does have to be first. I've often thought about this with oysters.

who cracked open a steep rock and looked at that sea bugger and was like that might be food that's probably going to taste good joe you you eat that first yeah once you see everyone else eat oysters you're like okay i'll eat an oyster but somebody had to do that first i see people eating oysters and i still don't eat oysters oh come on i love a good blue point some people love oysters so be the oyster well one of the blind spots i feel like when you're getting into the short term rental industry is literally i don't know what it's going to rent for and that is scary We see this a lot with the medium term rentals that are going out. I get this question all the time.

How do you know what it's going to go for? But you don't. You don't get that same security that you get with traditional rental properties because you're getting an upside, because there's no ceiling. It could go great for you. Don't ever get to have both. Building new construction properties is a similar pattern. When you're buying something that's already there, there's only so many things that

could go wrong and most of it can be found on an inspection report. Right? The roof, the plumbing leaks, electrical. And if you know what you're doing when you're looking at a house, these surprises don't happen. If you have a person look at a foundation, it's not very often. The oops turns out the foundation's crumbling and we just didn't see it. There is no foundation. Oh my gosh, we messed up.

Yeah, exactly. How do we not notice this? There's no slab. Most mistakes that come from rehabs of existing properties were sloppy due diligence. Okay. And that's not to criticize anyone. That's just what happens. And you learn your lesson.

It doesn't happen. Do construction is different. Do you have much less control over how things are going to, going to go because there's so many more moving pieces. So what are some of the other blind spots that people need to look out for if they're thinking, you know what, this market's too expensive? I'm just going to build my own house. I would say even given that the fact that we're in construction, we hired a general contractor for the area. There's a market up there. And I mean, this is located in a mountain town, small town.

And those people, those contractors, those subs do not market. I mean, I mean, this is located. I even in Denver, you have good subs. They do not market on Google. They're all word of mouth. Oh, if they were on Google marketing, they wouldn't be available as a good sub anymore. It's so hard to find it. No one answers the phone in this industry.

Yep. And we're two hours away, two and a half hours away. And for us to manage it is just not, it's not smart, number one. And even though we were probably, we were hands on, we were, again, in the middle of COVID, scrambling for materials.

We were running some materials up there. But just the fact that he has his own Avenger team. Right. I mean, Rob talks about that all the time, that they will only work directly with that general contractor. They do not want to work with homeowners. Yeah, they won't be stuffed out with other people. No, no.

They need people to speak their language. They need them to tell them when to show up, when things are actually ready. Not when, oh, can you come by and give me? me a quote and you're still in you've torn everything apart. People waste contractors times all the time without realizing that they're doing it. It's just out of ignorance, people will do that. Oh, can you come give me a quote?

And that contractor's got to take time off a job, drive till two to three hours of time that they're going to spend. Then they got to talk to you. Then they got to go draw up the quote. That could be like a half a day or a day's worth of work that's gone. And then the job never happened. And then never hear from you again. Yeah, exactly.

Oh, well, he was cheaper. So I went with him. And they just, we're not saying to, you got to hire. everyone on the first shot, but people are not aware what they're asking for when they're like, I just want to get a quote, right? My family was blue collar workers. My dad was a painter, my uncle, my grandfather were painters. I saw the work they have to go into just to generate a quote. It's not a thing. It's like asking someone to comp a house. You're not just going to look at it and give an answer. You're going to go dig in and dive in and spend a lot of time doing that. And so that,

you end up finding exactly what you said. The best people stay loyal to the person that butters their bread, protects them, takes care of them, keeps feeding them. And if you are that good sub and you take too many side jobs and your contractor finds out, he might be looking to replace you with someone that he can count on when he wants to go get the job. And that is something I found when you try to cheat the system and you're like, I don't want to hire a contractor. I'm just going to go find my own person. You're often getting someone that couldn't get full-time working for a contractor. And I love what you said because we sometimes think we're saving money doing this. I mean, I am guilty of this just as much as anyone else where that contractor said

15k, I can find a guy to do it for 9,500. I'm going to save some money. And then the job takes three times as long and you make three $5,000 mortgage payments. And you're like, this just turned into a $50,000 remodel. But I only had to pay $9,500 for it. So what's your experience like with that? You're tripping over pennies to save dollars? Yes. Yeah. Yep. So I mean, when we broke around, I was like, we need to finish this in eight months. That was a tall order. I was going to say that's ambitious. It's ambitious. But when you're seeing the interest rates going up expeditiously.

I mean, so by the time, from when we broke around to when we got C of O was 15 months. And the interest rates rose 400 BPS. And for everybody at home, that's certificate of occupancy? Certificate of occupancy, yes. Which is what the city or county has to issue St. you are allowed to use this as a residentially. And even from the lending standpoint, because we were refinancing,

they want to see a certificate of office. They don't want to lend on something that can't be used if they have to foreclose that no one could live there. Right. It needs to be finished up to a point of being safe to live in. And at that point, we weren't done, to be honest. We were still waiting on backslash. I don't know what else we were waiting on.

Just cosmetic things. You have to have flooring. You have to, what are some of the things that you need to have for it to be a habitable flooring part of it? cabinets have to be in there? Cabinets. No exposed electrical or plumbing.

That all has to be there. Which is fair. But some of the cosmetic stuff, that is true. Like you can, the backslash might not be there. Paint might not be finished. Dishwasher. It's like past, I think it's like, um, past rough like electrical where the electrical outlet is like all wired up, but you don't need the plate on it necessarily.

Yeah. And so people can use that information to get deals because I've looked for properties not so much recently, but in the past when there was less competition where, they were like 98% of the way it's a certificate of occupancy but like they had a they would have had like the what's the word I'm blanking of the subfloor in with heartybacker but no tile and they're like nope can't live in that house it just has the hardybacker right well like I'll go in and buy it knowing we just have to lay tile right on there but my competition could not get a loan to buy the property because a lender won't lent without the CFO right so I can go in and pay cash for this

thing because it's uninhabitable, but it's not a complete tear down. It's not a huge project. That used to be a strategy that we could use. Now it's just something you have to be aware of like you're saying because you can't refinance until you actually get that. So what are some other blind spots that we've mentioned the certificate of occupancy? We've mentioned knowing what needs to go into running comps to see what the property is going to be worth. You mentioned that you got your own contractors instead of trying to work the subs yourself. What about some of the stuff like roughins or contractors ghosting you for work? And I can. done. Have you guys had any issues with that?

Well, the punch list. That was the after certificate of occupancy. There's the punch list. And them coming back for it takes a long time. Yeah, because at that point, you've basically paid the most of the main. Yeah, for the most part, there may be 10% waiting on the 10% of that final punch list. And at that point, they've like started another job where the big money is coming in. The foundation 25% milestone hits.

This is one of those things where if an investor could just take one thing to get right, it would be do not pay the contract or all the money to start the job. But it's weird that they almost don't even, they're like, okay, 10% I think I'm good. I don't. They don't need the last 10%. We don't need the last 10%. Because they're making the 90% on the other sucker that pays them all the money at front to go start that other job and then they'd finish that one halfway through.

At least we get ours to 90% right. That is such a crucial thing. You have to give them some money because they're not. going to front their own money to buy materials and pay their labor, but I typically try to keep it around 20 to 30 percent to start the job. And then I just stay in contact with them. And as they show me that the work has been done, I give them another draw. What you don't want to do is give them 80 percent of the money, 100 percent of the money right off the bat and trust that they're just going to finish the job, right? For sure. A hundred percent of the people that have

been ripped off by a contractor that I've talked to you that come to me, what do I do? Do I need to take them to court? They're not returning my calls. I just has one question. Did you already pay them? There's that dot, dot, dot, dot. It's always that. Yes. Oh, man. Usually my, so a punch list is basically where your house is basically done, but you have all these

little things that the follow through wasn't quite there. There's like a drywall crack that needs to be patched up or something that needs to be touched up with paint. And so it's this list of things that you give your contractor and you say, hey, I need these things to be done. The dishwasher's not running. Yeah. The electrical outlet wasn't wired correctly and it's not working.

It's like when you walk a new home, if you ever had a new home that was built, is where they put the blue tape. Yes. On the walls, right? Like, hey, come in and have the person fix this last thing. You hung the wrong lighting fixture in the wrong area. The doorbell doesn't work, whatever that stuff is. And then none of us know how to fix that.

Yeah. But really, though, a handyman has basically done all my punch lists ever. Yes. So we did have to come, have someone bring someone up from Denver to finish out some of the punchless items just to get it to the point where I could shoot pictures. So, you know, those are. the just it's always at 10% yes the last 10% that takes that's why you want that big juicy last 25% draw hanging over their head and that it's funny like if you ever had a dog and try to get to do a trick

and they don't want to do it when your company's over but then you put a treat in your hand and all a sudden they remember how to roll over that's exactly how I look at it like it's amazing how you remember how to finish that punch list when there's another 25 to 30% coming but when you're holding like a piece of broccoli to the dog. That's like the 10%. I'm not really that hungry. I'm not going to roll over for that. But they would eat the broccoli if it was in a bowl of food. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. They would get it done if it was part of what they what they needed to do to get paid. That's a great point there. So I understand you have a shower door story. Can you share that with us? Yes. The shower door story. My contractor, I was like, I need the shower door. I mean, I guess I could

hang a shower curtain. But we want a shower. a glass shower door. And he's like, okay, I'll call my guy. I said, who's your guy? He tells me, I'm like, I call that guy. He's like, well, he's my guy. That's the Avenger team. Yeah.

So that guy will answer the contractor calls. The guy, the glass dude said, I'm too busy. Except the contractor, as David said, butters his bread. Yes, he does. That's right. I mean, if we're going to go with that dog trick analogy, I'm not trying to compare contractures to dogs.

I realize that could have gone in a bad way. But it's like when you're like, you know, like your little sister's yelling at the dog, it doesn't do anything. And then like dad walks up and boom, sits, right? Because it's like I'm not making that guy mad. He's the one that feeds me. Right. It's that same idea, right?

As you came along and they're not loyal to you. They're loyal to the person who. No, exactly. Exactly. So you really do. It's again, that time that because I would have been high and dry trying to find call Home Depot everywhere and then transport this thing myself and have my handyman go and install it where this guy goes in and cuts this piece of glass and comes back with it perfect.

I mean, it's custom pretty much. So it was just the time frame of launching on Airbnb and that really, that helped to just really, he did come back. I mean, he's a good, he's a good contractor. But yeah, like you said, he's on to the next job because he needs to get his timelines going. He has milestones to make on all of his other jobs. Or the next three jobs. Right. Yeah. They're juggling in multiple. And he's and so we only look at our situation, our house. The contractor is like this middleman who's trying to deal with the clients that want things done. They're usually not math geniuses or business gurus. Like it sounds like you and your husband are pretty good at this, but I don't think everyone has a Janus work in their books on the

back end. Okay. They're struggling. They don't even know how to bid a job. Then, they get the job and now they have to manage like a herd of cats getting their employees to show up and work every day. That industry is notorious for having people that do not want to show up and work from nine to five or nine to nine. They've got issues. They've got drama. They're fighting with their girlfriends. They're stealing your tools. A lot of them get into drugs and they're unreliable. It's always a challenge is they're like, how do I get my labor on all these different jobs and then they got to pull someone off this job to come? Well, when there's delays for anything And during the timeline we were building, there was just delay after delay.

And it wasn't really the contractor's fault. Materials. And there's just normal delays in construction period. If you have to go through the permit process. Right. But I think it's like, I think the most frustrating thing, though, is whenever you do have all the pieces and all the materials and you drive by your house and like nobody's there. And you know that the contractor is just had another job doing a different job.

And you're like, man, I literally can't. You were bragging about only paying $9,500, that other person was willing to pay $15,000. Their job is getting done. And yours is not. I always, I do say that. Sometimes when you win, you really lose. Especially in short-term rentals, I think it's very important because you'll sometimes might have to pay $3,000 or $4,000 to get done a month or two earlier. But what revenue would you have made in? Exactly. Exactly. It could make you, you could be making like $5,000 to $10,000 more.

You're talking about interest rates too. I mean. Yeah, there's, you have a story about that, don't you? Like in one of the cases you broke ground, the time from breaking ground to receiving your certificate of Opkinsi, the rates rose by 400 basis points. Yes. So we ended up having to pay down the rate. And now looking back at that rate, we are at 8.8. We were quoted 8.75. And we paid two points down. So I mean, it's. So you were originally around in the mid fours? In the mid fours when we got quoted. Dang. Yeah, that caught me on several of them. Yeah.

Actually, it just happened to be when I bought a bunch of houses right after that. There's nothing you can do. Yeah. You can't. No. That's a great point. Time is often more expensive than the money that it would take to get the job done faster. Right.

Because if you, that amortization over 30 years or versus, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so, you know, the other point of hiring a general contractor for that area is that they know the permitting department. and they know the inspectors. That's nice too. It's not like I'm calling, can you come and do a rough inspection of my electrical? That'll be two weeks versus my contractor calling. Okay, we'll be there tomorrow at 9 a.m.

A good contractor, yes, can get anybody on the phone because they're just trusted. Yep. So, all right, so you kind of worked it out with your contractor. You get this house done. Can you tell us a little bit about how it actually went? Did it perform well? Like, were you crushing it out the gate?

How did it actually go when you launched on Airbnb? So the other timing fact, factor is that we missed the summer season. And that's a busy season for you? And that's a busy season. But, you know, we launched in the fall. We have leaf peeping season. So we, out of the gate, I mean, it was a success.

We have been operating for five months now. So on average, we're doing gross $7,200 a month. A month? A month. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we have our shoulder seasons here, but that's pretty good, considering, you know,

our net is anywhere from 4,000 to 4,500, which is solid. That is good. Especially when I pulled out all the money that I initially invested, right? Infinite returns. So you put all your money in, you get it back. This is what I call getting a free house. Everyone on YouTube gets mad, though, because they're like, it's not a free house. so you still have to pay a mortgage.

It's a free house in my mind. It's a free house because someone else is paying mortgage. And then you basically make $48,000 to $50,000 a year in profit. Yes. And if you did that twice, you make six figures. Not only is it a free house, it's a free $50,000. Yeah. Everybody else is giving you these things, which is how investing works when it's done well over time.

All right. So you figured out how to get a free house and you figured out how to get free revenue. Obviously, you're going to want to do more of this. So what project are you working on now? For sure. So, we're working. do it, we're going in on scale. We want to do eight, eight units, which that's our next project, eight microcabins in Salida, Colorado, and it's the exact same model. That's a great location, too.

It is. It's, it's, there's 14ers, if you guys know what they are, people love to come and hike them. a lot of river river activities. So it's a great market and I'm basically doubling down on what I did with the A frame, but doing it on one basically

outdoor hospitality is what you're all tumbling down. Yeah, you're doing eight units. Yes, yes, good catch. Definitely a word. Yes. And then what 10xing on my other project that I have in Buena Vista, which is close by. And that is

on 39 acres. So that is a different play because it's located in an opportunity zone. And there's a bigger learning curve there, but I'm building my Avenger team. Dang, cool. So you went from sprinting on a new construction, which is really what it feels like on your first build

to now you entered the marathon phase. Like you're in it to win it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm making up for lost time is what I'm doing here. So with those properties, I get a lot of people asking me, how can I do this? How can I buy land? And I just, land is probably the most crucial piece. And with these particular properties, I worked backwards. I worked from looking at what the zoning maps are and going, I'm not going for conditional use or special

use. I'm going straight for use by right. And so with the eight unit microcabin resort, that is zone for campground, which is hard to find. Given it's only one acre, but the fact that I could go straight to permitting gives me speed of that speed again. That's going straight to construction. So when you say use by right, that just means it's zoned for that, thus you don't have to go through crazy conditional use permit or special use permit application. No planning and zoning.

Wow. Cool. So when you're talking about buying land, you mentioned that people ask that question. We've also mentioned that buying land can be the difference in a, deal that works and a deal that doesn't. What are some things people need to be aware of when buying land? So my top red flags, whenever I look at a piece of land, is number one, flood zone. Deal breaker for me, maybe not for some people, but that's, if it's located in a flood zone, I will not do it. Insurability issues, potentially building issues. Along with that goes with

if something's in a wetland. Those two go hand in hand. You more than likely can't build. Utilities is a big one. Water, sewer, electricity. All of the things that we take for granted. If those things are not on site or reasonably close by, it's going to be very expensive. I mean, even if it's reasonably cheap.

Yes. Electrical can cost tens of thousands of dollars if it's like 100 yards away. It's crazy. Right. Right. Yeah, I had someone call me, go, I think it's a half a mile away. I'm like, oh. Yeah, because if you ever, like, go on Zillow or Redfin and you see these beautiful pieces of land,

they're like 100 acres, and they got views of the mountains, and there's like a spring. And then the photo, there's like this little baby deer. And you're like, oh, my gosh, it's only $27,000. And it's like. There's a reason why is that cheap. There's no utilities anywhere for like miles. Yeah. Exactly.

Exactly. And then what goes along with that is accessibility. If there's no road or if you have to build a road or if it's landlocked by other neighboring adjacent properties, that's going to make it somewhat difficult. Meaning you can't get into this property because you have to go to somebody else's property to get there. For my, whenever I do my due diligence, it has to have public access. What's another red flag?

Site grade's a very big one. Anything above 15, I won't do. What does that mean? 15% grade. Okay. That will just make it expensive for your dirt work. Then you have other foundation things that you will have to do. And it just, it's, I go for either anything 10% and below.

So water is a pretty big one. That is a big variable if, like Rob said, we all want this beautiful piece of land. But there's no public water going to the. these parcels and the variable is digging a well. You don't know how far you're going to have to dig. And on my project, anything that is about, that's going into the eight to ten dwellings or units, they're deeming those commercial. So if we're doing a commercial well, that's a whole different animal. And water is public. It's not something that you could just go and apply. I want a commercial wild permit. Certain counties will have you go in front of a water court and you have to

get a water engineer to basically state your case on why. There's just so many intricate things that we all don't, we're not, we don't have any of that expertise. So it just gets expensive to do that. This is so people always say, hey, I just want to build because it's too expensive to buy. What do you think about that? I, there's so much to it. I couldn't even warn you of all the things. you have to know about because how many people would have thought of any of these things on their own if there's like, oh, 27 grand. That's exactly right. So let's sum up. Was it five things that we went over there? Five things. Yes. So we had water access and the utilities in general. Yep. Tuitities. Okay. The site grade.

The site grade. Flood plane. Floodplain and was there one? And wetlands with that. The other one was zoning. And zoning. Yes. Zoning is a big one because if you can't build what you envision, then you're stuck with a piece of land that you can't do anything on. Other than try to sell it to someone else who hopefully doesn't know how the process works to. That's what happens all the time too. You see these beautiful pieces of land and they're like, we've already got the plans drawn up and everything. You're like, oh my gosh, they've done all the hard work.

And then you like ask the realtor a question. They're like, oh, I don't know. I don't know. Why would you ask that? I don't know. I don't figure it out. It comes with plans. You're like, you just didn't tell me $3 million to run the election.

electrical into where these plans were drawn up for. Okay, well, this has been fantastic. I think you're the first person we've talked about that given us this much detail into building properties and how easy it is to mess that up. So I appreciate you sharing this with all of our audience who may have had these hairbrained ideas that they're going to run into this thing without knowing what they're doing. My personal opinion, you should leave development to the experts and I don't recommend people get into unless they know an expert. And I think you seconded that by just talking about having the right construction people, having the right contractor, having your Avengers that know how this works can make the difference between losing a lot of money and having a successful project.

Is there any last words you'd like to leave the audience with? Well, I mean, if you do want to build something and it's along the lines of a single family home or even a cabin, that's probably going to be your easiest point of entry. If you're thinking, oh, I'm going to do a multifamily development, it's if you go into any any county or or municipality and you go, I want to build a house. They're going to say yes. Again, it's the permitting. Yeah.

So that's going to be the path of lease resistance. So do you have any advice for people that want to learn more about this? Like what would you tell your niece if she wanted to get into development? Well, I'm actually doing a little bit of consulting and putting out some information on uncommon developer. If you want to check that out, I just started that because I get the same questions over and over again. Is that your website?

It's my website. Cool. Uncommon developer. My Instagram, yes. My Instagram for the A-frame is backcountry A-frame, and I share a little bit about that process in the highlight reels. So, you know, I'm very transparent about the process and the cost there. Okay.

Rob, where can people find out more about you? You can find me on the YouTube. over at Raw Built, R-O-B-U-I-L-T, and on Instagram at Raw-Bilt as well. What about you? You can find me at Big Vip Sporting Goods, looking for some new socks because my feet are freezing from walking in the snow. And after that, you can find me at David Green 24 all over social media and my new website, David Green24.com. I'm one of the only old people left who is still making websites. Although I guess Uncommon developer, right? That's a website. It's like, we're coming back. I just made a website yesterday. No way. I just named my direct booking website. I'm really excited.

What is it? It's called neek sleeps.com. Neek. Yeah, like Unique. N-I-Q-E-K-sleeps. Spelling it cool. Is this like when you try to put like an X in something because that makes it cool, like Spinks?

Well, I was going to do Neek Lee, but I know that you don't like when people just add the L-Y at the end. So living in the Silicon Valley area for too long, they just started to add L-Y to the end of any word and call it a tech company. Shirtly, Hairly, Couchly, Computerly, Podcastly. Yeah, it's everywhere. You ever wonder where the term podcast confirmed that? That's a great question, Bob. Do you want to get into that?

Oh, off-air jokes. Okay. All right. Well, thank you very much, Janice. We appreciate you sharing your story. It's been fantastic as well as some of the struggles that you had and the doubt that you had before you jumped into what you're doing right now. So thanks for coming here.

We'll make sure that we check in on with you and see how that project goes. And I'm glad that Rob brought you in. Thanks for having me. This is David Green for Rob Neek Abasolo, signing on. Thank you all. for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. On the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer, the show is produced by Ian K, copywriting is by Calico content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own.

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