BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 749: From DoorDasher to $1.5 MILLION in Real Estate (All at 22 Years Old!) w/Josh Janus

Episode Date: April 6, 2023

Your DoorDash driver may be the world's next real estate mogul. If you ever had Josh Janus drop off food at your house, you may have been in the middle of him getting a deal done. That's right; between picking up and delivering food, Josh was cold-calling sellers, sourcing as many off-market real estate deals as possible. This type of serial side hustling led Josh to acquire $1,500,000 in real estate at age twenty-two, making $50,000 per month and building a business most entrepreneurs could only dream of. From a young age, Josh was already the king of multiple income streams. He was making duct tape wallets on the bus, flipping shoes online, and doing whatever he could to save more money. When he found BiggerPockets, he realized that real estate was the way to propel his dollars even further, allowing him to have money work for him instead of the other way around. So, Josh set out building a "hybrid wholesaling" model. He would contact off-market sellers, send their information to an agent, and get paid for his side of the deal. Once Josh got his real estate license, he started hustling even harder, selling $17,000,000 of real estate as an agent, making more in a month than many Americans make in a year. So what was Josh's quick key to success? How did he do all this in his early twenties without any experience? And how can you repeat the same system to skyrocket your wealth? Stick around; Josh will tell you how to do it too!  In This Episode We Cover: The "hybrid wholesale" model Josh uses to make serious commissions on off-market deals Side hustles, alternative income streams, and how to make more money in your free time Cold calling tips and getting your first off-market deal under contract (even with NO experience) How to use the BiggerPockets forums to get more deals, network with more investors, and build wealth  Mistakes you should avoid when hunting for your own off-market real estate deals Josh's nearly perfect BRRRR and the right way to do a deal that needs a renovation/rehab And So Much More! Links from the Show Find an Investor-Friendly Real Estate Agent BiggerPockets Youtube Channel BiggerPockets Forums BiggerPockets Pro Membership BiggerPockets Bookstore BiggerPockets Bootcamps BiggerPockets Podcast BiggerPockets Merch BPCON2023 Listen to All Your Favorite BiggerPockets Podcasts in One Place Learn About Real Estate, The Housing Market, and Money Management with The BiggerPockets Podcasts Get More Deals Done with The BiggerPockets Investing Tools Find a BiggerPockets Real Estate Meetup in Your Area David's BiggerPockets Profile David's Instagram David’s YouTube Channel Work with David Rob's BiggerPockets Profile Rob's YouTube Rob's Instagram Rob's TikTok Rob's Twitter Hear Our Interview with Couch-Flipper Turned Investor, Ryan Pineda Build Your Off-Market List with PropStream Books Mentioned in the Show: Long-Distance Real Estate Investing by David Greene SCALE by David Greene Connect with Josh: Josh's BiggerPockets Profile Josh's Instagram Click here to listen to the full episode: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/real-estate-749 Interested in learning more about today’s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 749. I never thought that while I was door dashing in college, not having the most clear vision of what I wanted to do after, that real estate would allow me to own over 10 properties right around a million and a half in valuation and have the ability to create some long-term consistent cash flow. What's going on, everyone? This is David Green, your host of the Bigger Pockets podcast here today with my co-host, Rob Abas Solo, with a show that is going to blow your mind. Today's guest is 22-year-old Josh Janice, who has already established a real estate portfolio

of over 10 properties, is also selling houses as an agent. He sold $17 billion last year. And in this episode, Rob and I get into how he's doing it and what he's figured out that other people haven't. My mind is still blown, Rob. How are you feeling?

It's one of those things where I'm just like, when you find someone that sort of unlocks something in real estate and they're absolutely crushing it, it's super impressive. But when you find someone that's 22 years old, making six figures a month doing really well in real estate, it really is just one of those things where I'm like, man, I got to catch up. And I'm like 10 years after this guy. Yeah. And that leads us to today's quick tip. Get started in real estate early, right? How can you get started now? I've often heard it said that the best time to buy real estate is 10 years ago. The quicker you get that clock started, the best.

better it's going to be for you. The best deals that I have is the stuff that I bought the longest time ago. That does not mean to buy bad deals early, but buy good deals early and wait. Rob, what's something about today's show that you think people should keep an eye out for? You know, even with Josh's success and how much money he was making, which we'll get into that in the episode, he was still really honest about his fears getting into his first property that he probably could have straight up paid cash for in like one or two months. And so it was just nice to hear that even someone that could be making so much money could still be vulnerable and kind of fearful in their first deal. But it was really cool to see the glow up and to see that that first

deal kind of catapulted him to where he is today. So yeah, just a really cool, uh, inspiring moment, I think, to just hear him put it all out there. Yeah. And he also shares how he got started in business making duct tape wallets and door dashing. Like this is a person who listened to the podcast, driving around, dropping off Jack in the Box and pizzas and turned it into a real estate empire, just like many of you that are listening to this now really want. So this is what I will listen to twice and pull as many pieces of information as you can out of this story to think of how you can apply it to your life.

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Without any further ado, let's bring in real estate phenom Josh Janice. Today's guest, Josh Janice, knew in high school that he wanted to retire by 30 years of age. So he built and managed different side hustles from duct tape wallets to a successful sneaker business. Josh was a college student who also drove for DoorDash. Last year at age 22, he sold over 125 properties in his first year as a real estate agent, totaling over $17 million as an investor-friendly agent. He has purchased and renovated over 10 properties using very little of his own money in real estate over the last seven months. We are going to unpack this. today, Josh, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Yeah, it sounds like you have a strong entrepreneurial

focus. And before we get into how you accomplish everything that I've said, what was it about real estate that attracted you in the first place? So when I was younger, I was always trying to save money. I didn't really know exactly the most productive thing to do with it. I was like, hey, I might as well stash it away and eventually I'll figure it out. I had around like $10,000 saved up, like free capital to use. And I was starting my college career. And I was introduced to the idea of house hacking when basically Googling what to do with $10,000 to $20,000 when you're 20. And that led me to bigger pockets. And that was kind of my introduction to real estate as a whole. So did you ever actually go anywhere with house hacking? I was close. So back when I was living in Cleveland, Ohio, I was looking at

properties. I figured out kind of where I wanted a house hack, but I ended up switching and going to a different college. I went to the Ohio State University, and then my next journey was going to be a house hack there, but I didn't actually end up doing it. So Josh, it seems like obviously you're a little bit entrepreneurial here. Before we get into the real estate stuff, because I think even at the age of 22, having $10,000 in your bank account is a hard thing, right? A lot of people are like, how can I get 10,000 bucks. So can you tell us a little bit about how you even got the 10,000 bucks? Did you just have a ton of side hustles or were you working a job? Sure. So I was working, you know, I was doing a lot of side hustles. I used to make duct tape wallets when I was in like middle school and try to sell those

and that's kind of fun. And the next thing I was really interested in was like sneakers, the whole sneaker culture reselling because I was a pretty big basketball player. And I kind of was exposed to that industry. So I was going to different sneaker events. I would rent out a table, bring as much shoes as I could fit my couple bags and try to sell them, and basically just kept those profits over the years. Nice. What did a duct tape wallet run you back in the day? Oh, man, it was like $5 to sell. I mean, it was a lot of work for $5. Oh, I see. Because I was going to say, you know, roll of a, well, toilet paper, sorry, duct tape is going to cost you like three, four bucks, you know. So, yeah, if you can See, Josh, this is my problem. Rob always forgets to include the value of time.

He only looks at the money when he calculates ROI, as you can see. That's true, but you had a lot of time. Sure, yeah, I was doing it in class and on the bus. This reminds me of me. I wish I had had something. I've always had a very difficult time paying attention in class and school. Anytime that I have to follow somebody else's pace if they're talking too slow, I'm like, ah, my brain just wanders.

I can't sit there. So they didn't have fidget spinners. Or what's the other things that everybody plays with now, Rob? Fidget cubes. Fidget cubes. There you go, right? What did we have in my day? We had, like, we had stupid pencils with different colored lead that you could, like,

click the different colors and play with. Or we had these bracelets that you could snap on your wrist and they would, like, curl up at a ball. I doubt either of you guys ever saw those things. Oh, yeah. You still have that bright pink one, right, that you always play with during the podcast. Yeah, and when I work out, that's like my lucky workout wristband, bright pink, absolutely. Pinker pockets for the win.

So you're an entrepreneurial at heart, Josh, which I love because I know this is where you learn the fundamentals that later translated into real estate investing. We interviewed Ryan Paneda on our podcast years ago, and he talked about how he flipped couches. He would buy couches, fix them up and flip them, which he then later turned into a house flipping business. And now he's built an entire empire, which I like to think we are basically the ones that launched him into the atmosphere.

But Ryan took that atmospheric launch and built something pretty cool out of it. So I'm curious if you could share what lessons do you think you learned with some of these early endeavors that translated into real estate later? I guess in the sneaker culture, you would see some of these really cool shoes, right, that like athletes were wearing or celebrities. And maybe you'd flip a few pairs and make like 500 bucks. And you want to take that profit and immediately buy your own pair to keep and wear. And my mindset was I'd rather save that money and maybe put it towards like an asset. I learned the idea of assets when I was younger where you can actually use money to make more money. I didn't really understand which assets to use at the time.

I just knew that concept. And I was like, it's got to be a better way of spending my $500 profit. So I think that's one thing that I learned for sure when I was younger. By the way, that's not the worst mindset to have where you say, I really want this thing. So I'm going to figure out how to make money with this thing that I want, sell it, make a profit, and then get the thing that I want. That's real estate in a nutshell, right? You want to acquire property, so you buy a property, you flip it, you take the profits.

And what do you go and usually if you're a good real estate investor, you go and you dump it back into another property. Or you buy a property and have other people pay for it, long term rentals or short term rentals, right? So I think it's the mindset is not incorrect. It's just really impressive that you found out at a very young age that instead of buying sneakers, you should put it into something that's going to make you more money. Yeah, I think I was always trying to find more ways to be more productive. with my money. Like I learned early on, like for certain shoes, I'd have to go to the store and wait multiple hours. I was thinking, like, this isn't very scalable if I want to try to get like 20 pairs of shoes because I can't be simultaneously at 20 places at the same time. I have to learn how to rely on

other people. Different things like that helped. So, you know, I always thought, because I tried different endeavors too. I worked at restaurants and I learned how to sell wine and steak. And then I tried to get a job selling cars at one point. That didn't work out. But ultimately, I think a lot of us see real estate as the pinnacle we're trying to get to. We want to sell the most expensive thing we can. Getting a real estate license is not something you need this four year degree. I wish it was. I'd feel much better if agents had to go get a two or four year degree to sell. So houses because there'd be less crappy ones out there. And we'll get into your career there too, Josh. But was it the same thing for you that real estate was just a natural progression of the

best thing that you could sell? Yeah, I think so. It seemed like I had to put almost like now they look back on it, the amount of time it takes for me to sell one house. was almost the same amount of time and energy it took for me to sell one or two pairs of shoes in some ways. And your hands aren't sore from creating these duct tape wallets all the time. Yes, easier. That too. You let DocuSign do all the work, less paper cuts.

All right. So let's go back in time. You're in college. I go back in time. You're 22 years old. You might still be in college. Where does this interest in real estate start to come into play? How and where did you start to dig in?

I mean, I just was Googling, you know? what do I do with $10,000 or $20,000? How do I invest it? And I can't remember if it was bigger pockets right away, but I saw like house hack. And I was like, maybe I could buy like a property, you know, on the college campus I was going to live in one unit, read everything else out. And that slowly led me to understand like, oh man, like if I become an agent, I could figure out a way to find like potentially the best deals. So that was my goal. So you didn't buy a house to house act, but you got exposed to real estate. It made sense to you. And you thought, you know what? I'll just get my license and I'll help other people do the same thing. Yep. All right.

So did you just look up how to get a real estate license and just start studying and do that? Or did you have a mentor that kind of guided you? The first thing was like diving to the bigger pockets forms. Like really, this podcast might sound like a bigger pot like bigger pockets like promotion. But in all reality, like a ton of my growth really like stemmed from that foundation. But that was that was one of the first things. And then I also got latched on to a guy named Remington Lyman, who was also an agent. He works at Riefco real estate.

He owns a brokerage I work at. But I, you know, I messaged him. I was like explaining my situation. He hopped on a Zoom call with me, explained, you know, the benefits of house hacking. Like, maybe if you wanted to become an agent here or come here, we can teach you how to find off-market deals. We can help you build those systems. And the next thing, you know, I was working as hard as I can to get my business.

license. Yeah, so you're getting a license and obviously, you know, as you establish your real estate agent business, that's going to take some time to get that deal flow and actually closing properties and making money. Were you working any other jobs while you were doing this? Or were you all in at the very beginning? In the very beginning, I was still taking classes. I was studying computer science and that I was driving for DoorDash like 20 to 30 hours a week. And then at any moment I could, I was trying to figure out, I was trying to just cold call. That was my main source of finding deals in the beginning. My plan was cold call, find a deal, or at least get somebody to talk to me about their property,

get some details, bring it to one of the agents that I was working with. And they would kind of break down the deal, explain like, ooh, maybe an investor would like this, or get some clarification on what the rents are, the lease terms are, and it started there. Did you ever have to like, were you ever deep in conversation? You're like, give me one second. and then you'd pause to take a photo of the DoorDash delivery to upload in the app and then get back on the call? Maybe. I was trying not to do the delivery while calling. I was doing when I was driving, but not necessarily. Oh, mid-Dillivery? Yeah, yeah. So what kind of money does a DoorDasher make? If you're working 20 to 30 hours a week, is that pretty good income? Can you give us a little frame of reference there?

Yeah, I mean, I was around $5 to $800 per week, I think. think working at that amount of hours. Yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah, that's solid, especially if you're in college and you're kind of doing all that. So you're door dashing making pretty good money for where you are in life and your cold calling. What was that first deal like when you actually landed a lead

that became a transaction that paid you out? Definitely. So I was cold calling four units and what I would call like an A-class area. I just found a guy that happened to be motivated that day. He was pretty easy to talk with. I presented it to the agent I was working with. he's like, oh yeah, we could sell this deal. So I wrote up an email, which is the way that we kind of market our deals.

Then he presented it to his investors. And somebody ended up taking the deal on. And I took about a month to close as most properties do. And I basically made what I would make in like a month and a half from Nordash from that. And I was pretty psyched because I thought like I just need to knock out a few more of these. And I could end up making this produce more income than just Nordash. So you started mathing out like, oh man, if I did this three times, I'll make this amount of money. Oh, yeah, definitely.

And then another thing is, like, if you get your license, you end up making a much bigger cut because you can actually represent either the seller or the buyer. It depends on the situation. So I was making like a referral fee. So as soon as that deal closed, I was like, all right, I got to get my license. Let's start studying right now and try to knock it out. Yeah, so was that more like a, I don't know, like a wholesale deal where you're calling, you find some of, when you get a property off market. They're like, yeah, I'm willing to sell it.

And then you're basically passed, are you then passing that off to realtors to sell? Or were you selling it to an investor and taking like a small fee for that? I worked under a realtor named Abe. So basically I just wrote all the details of the property, gave to him. And then he found an investor that was interested in the brokerage that I was working at. So it's kind of like a hybrid form of wholesaling. We just don't actually put the deals under contract. we just present the information to the potential investors.

Makes sense. So you started sort of, I guess you close this deal. You're like, oh my gosh, I just got to do this this many times. You start getting more into this. How are you able to balance everything from, you know, getting your license to finishing college to, I assume still may be working some DoorDash here and there? I mean, at that point, basically I was like, I'm just going to use all of my time outside of school to dedicate towards, you know, still maintaining a cold calling schedule, which I think is really important and then getting my license. So I got my license in about two months. Are cold call hours always nine to five or were you like getting creative and calling from like 5 p.m. to 9 p.m. too.

9 to 11 was like my cold cold calls, the people I'd never really talked to. And then like I would use one to five as a lot of follow-ups or new cold calls. But it seemed like, you know, if you pick, if you hit somebody in the morning when they're driving, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, call me back later. Then I just hit him later. And usually that ended up being a pretty decent converter. David, do you consider yourself much of a very good cold caller? I've never heard this side of you before. So I'm curious.

I did it in the beginning of my career when I had to. I didn't love it. So I didn't do it a lot. You sort of like when you're trying to find deals, there's most people fall into one of two categories. There's the direct contact person, which is a cold caller. Or there's the content creator, which sort of gets people coming to them. Like most people usually take one of those two past and because I ended up as a podcast host and an author, I kind of went the content creation side as opposed to the direct cold call.

Josh, I mean, you did what you could do because you didn't have a huge podcast behind you to spread the word. I'm curious because you mentioned something. You talked about this like wholesale hybrid model. Can you give us a little more detail of what you mean by how you were making money on these deals? Sure. So the seller was like, hey, I want $450 for this four unit. and generally wholesalers would write up a contract, get it under contract, and then sell that contract for a fee. So the way that we do it as at the brokerage I work at I refco, we don't put it under contract.

We just take all the details of the deal, write it in like an email, and then present that to our investors. And then if one of our investors likes it or they want to write an offer, we just write up the offer and present it directly to the seller. And how are you being compensated? Are you getting a listing agreement from the seller when you bring the buyer to them? And there's a commission in there for you guys? We don't actually use listing agreements. No. So during that time frame when I didn't have my license, I was getting a fourth of the commission for the agent I was working under.

So he got 3%. Then the agent that brought the buyer got 3%. And then I ended up with 25% of the 3%. That's how we did it. How are you guys getting commissions if there was no listing agreement? It's still an executable contract with commissions in the agreement. So it's going to say seller to pay 6% of our broker. I gotcha.

Yeah. So you would bring a buyer and in the offer it would have who was getting paid as far as the agents are concerned. Correct. I see. So rather than getting a house, putting it on the market, letting everybody see it, trying to get offers, negotiating the highest one, you guys just cut to the chase and you said, hey, I got a buyer that will pay this much for your house.

If you want to take the deal, here's how much it's going to cost you. Here's what the net to you's going to be. you guys were running a little more efficiently. Yeah, I think it allows us to kind of take advantage of those leads that aren't as motivated to sign a listing agreement because there's a lot of people that fall in that category, I think. And this is also a form of off market deals. So other buyers didn't have access to the same stuff that you guys were bringing them, correct? Yep. Yeah, but Josh, what would stop a, let's say you're presenting this property, right? Because you don't have a contract or you don't have a listing agreement. What would stop

like an investor? If you say, hey, investor, I've got this cool property. Here's the address. what would stop them from just going over you and going straight to the seller and just transacting the deal themselves? That's a good question. So we have an off-market agreement that we present to everybody, proud of setting deals, that roughly states, if you go after a deal that we bring you, you have to use us as your agent. So in the beginning, when they haven't signed it yet, we'll send people like rough deep descriptions of all the deals. It won't have the address. usually won't have pictures. But then if they're like, hey, I really like the concept of this deal, we'll set on the agreement.

And then they sign it. We're good to go. So that's a form of a buyer representation agreement. You don't have to, people don't realize you don't have to set it up for every house that I show you or every house you could buy. You can say for this address, I have to be your agent, but they could use a different buyer's agent for different properties they get brought to them. That actually makes sense. And I see now why you're calling it a wholesale hybrid because wholesalers do it that way. They say, here's a three, two with 1800.

square feet in this zip code that would rent for this much money. That's all the people get to start with until they want to analyze it later. So you kind of use that marketing approach paired with real estate contracts to protect each party there. So what happened next? How did you get to the point that you were making more from these commissions than you were making from your door dashing? So that first check came in. That was about a month and a half's worth of door dash. I had a lot of warm leads, people that weren't ready to sell right away, but they were getting close. And I was basically like, I'm going to take the next six weeks. I'm going to go really hard at this. And at that point, I started, you know, I was spending two to three times more hours per week on

this than I was before. Then I got my license. And I started putting a whole bunch of deals in contract. And when you say you're putting two or three more hours, do you mean just in the follow-up? Sorry, my bad. Like two to three times more hours per week than I was. was before because I was like, hey, no more DoorDash for now. We'll just work on real estate. Got it. And was all that time on lead generation? Was it following up with, because you said you had a large pull of warm lead. So these are people that, you know, they're interested. They're not ready to pull the trigger necessarily. But if you kind of keep approaching them, coming back to them, eventually, they convert. Right. Yeah. Eventually. Yeah. All right. Were there any

key learning points during this difficult time? Like, what was going on in the market at this time? Was it still red hot where things slowing down where are we in time this is the beginning of uh 22 so it was still hot definitely it was cooling off a little bit um but you know every deal that was decent that hit the market would have multiple offers and the listing agent would be getting hounded so it was definitely tough um at this time i also tried to make a bigger presence on bigger pockets so i was posting a lot I think I cranked out a thousand posts in about three months. Wait, hold on. So you were posting out, okay, so that's 90 days.

So you were posting 10 times to 12 times a day on the bigger pockets forums? Yep. Yeah, that was my schedule, I believe, from 530 to 630 every morning. I had to spend an hour in bigger pockets by posting or at least reading content and trying to provide value. What kind of, like, you were making posts and actually putting content out there? What's an example of something you'd throw out into the bigger pockets universe? I mean, most of it was just comments on people's questions.

I would try to answer them the best that I could. I would talk about the Ohio market, the advantages to investing here. I would talk about kind of like my journey and how I'm learning. Did you feel like people start to know who you were? Like did you get any relationships from doing that? Oh, yeah. I was getting, people reaching out to me in bigger pockets. They're like, hey, like I see you know a little bit about this market

or real estate investing in general. And at that point, I was trying to manage those leads. And then I was also reaching out to other people. So I set up like a county link. I was like, hey, set up a 15-minute call with me. We'll figure out, you know, what you're looking for and how I can help. So when the market was hot and listing agents were getting multiple offers, how are you getting sellers to agree to sell their properties through you to a specific buyer

rather than putting it out there for everyone to see? So I think the fact that we weren't using listing agreements, they were a lot calmer. They didn't feel like you were trying to push them to sell. It was more so like, I was like, hey man, like, you know, what do you need for this property? Like, what number would you not deny? And then if that number made decent sense, we'd spend the time to write it up and market it out. And they weren't having to fix their house up. I'm assuming a lot of these were probably sold with tenants already inside.

Yeah, tenants inside. We get the rents, the lease terms. they would almost always be as is. Yep. And then what were you doing to find actual properties? Were you just pulling lists? Was this, you'd be driving around and just look and see a multi-unit property you thought an investor would like?

I was pulling lists from PropStream for the most part and targeting different areas. I was trying to pull lists of people that hadn't sold in the last year or two years or that bought it for a really low price compared to what it was potentially worth now because I felt like those could have been more motivated people. All right. So you're in this. this world, right, where you're figuring out your systems. I see that you've developed habits. You had a schedule. You're now an agent. Give us an idea. How long did it take from when you got your

license to the first deal that you closed as an agent? How long did that take? That was December to March, so basically three months. And I had my first 11 deals fall to contract. It was pretty brutal. I felt like everything was falling out for the most unique reasons. But it was a very, you know, it was a big learning experience for me because that was making mistakes for sure. Man, the 11 deals. That is brutal. David, is that normal at all? I know you run a team of the David Green team, the most elite real estate agents out there. Is it normal for 11, you know, deals to just fall out from like a first time realtor? No, but as I'm listening to Josh's strategy here, that starts to make sense. This is more of a volume-based approach. Yes, sellers that are not motivated.

He has buyers that they don't have a relationship with. Everyone's a bit of a merchant marine here. Like, it's just pure numbers. If you can get me a deal that gets me the cash on cash return that I want, I'll go forward. Or if you can get me this number that was probably higher than what they thought the property was worth. So you've got sellers that probably want to sell for more than a buyer would want

to pay. You get buyers that are looking for the deal of the century. Every time you have these expectations that are off, it's easier for a deal to fall apart. So I'm assuming, Josh, you just have. had to make up for that with volume. You were probably just a workhorse that was constantly looking for sellers, looking for buyers matching them together, moving on to the next thing. Definitely, yes. I haven't really heard a summary like that before. That's a very good way of explaining it. I was basically just taking two low chance, two people that had a low chance of

closing and putting them together. When that happens, you get a really low chance of closing. David is the king of this, by the way. He is the king of summarizing something so concisely and succinct. I remember we had, let's see, who was it, Chris Voss. Chris Voss came on and he gave like a very like a philosophical thing. And then David comes in. He's like, so basically, based on this and this, it's this right. And Chris Voss was like, yeah, it is that. No one's ever told me that before. And I was like, it was like watching, you know, who painted the Mona Lisa? The painter of the Mona Lisa, paint the Mona Lisa, but in the real estate world, Michael Angelo, shoot, I'm about to look so dumb. Everyone in the comments are going to be like, no, it wasn't Michael Angelou.

Well, the key is you have to do that with Chris Voss because you don't want to end up in a negotiation with him. Oh, no. I remember who it was. It was also the Blue Angels guy. He was like had this whole story about how he had the, how he made a mistake in the jet. And then he was like, can you guess the reason that I made that mistake? And then David was like, well, it was probably because you got too comfortable and blah, blah, blah. And he was like, I've told that story 1100 times. And no one has ever said that to me. Yeah, that's exactly why. And he was stunned. So anyways, I always like to point that out when I see it. Well, thank you. Quick tip here. If you would like to be able to do the same thing, stop looking for patterns to follow or as far as like a strategy. Give me a blueprint. I just want to go do something and start asking questions like, well, why did that work? Or why did that not work? And then this stuff sort of jumps out. So like just from that information alone, I can tell certain things about Josh. He's a workhorse. He does not get emotionally attached to any of these deals. When he put something in contract, he doesn't spend the money before

it closes. He's just like, that's a metric that goes on a spreadsheet. I am now back to going to work. He focuses on what we call the lead measures, not the lag measures. So what is it I can do right now as opposed to measuring something that already happened? This is all really good advice for everyone. You see this with real estate agents where they work really hard. They put a deal in contract. They get emotionally excited. They celebrate. They go out drinking with their friends. They start thinking about what they're going to spend the money on. They're calculating their commissions, right? Real estate agents can calculate 3% of anything, which is funny because we don't all get 3% hardly ever anymore. But they get super attention.

to the deal. And then when something goes wrong, the appraisal comes in low, the inspection report is bad, the client can't get the loan, whatever it is. They get really discouraged, and then they go drinking again, which is why most real estate agents all become alcoholics, because they're drinking when they're excited and they're drinking when they're bummed out. They're just drinking all the time. I think Josh's approach is much better because you're sort of approaching the business of selling homes like a real estate investor would think, where you're just letting the numbers make the decisions. Am I off with that? You're right. Yeah, it's just keep, put them in contrast.

figure out what mistake I made there and what can I change in my systems and my approach to potentially avoid that in the future. Okay, so let me ask you, what are some of the key mistakes that you can share that you learned when you put these deals together that made the deals fall apart? So the first thing would be not vetting the sellers. Sometimes they wouldn't, I mean, kind of funny, they didn't even really know what they owned. They would say like, oh, there's three but these are two three bedroom units. And then you get them a contract, the inspector goes there. and they're like, dude, there's only two bedrooms. And it's like, oh, you can't do anything about that.

You can't just build a new bedroom. So that's one thing. Another thing is I learned about, you know, making sure the tenants are paying and the tenants are like paying on time. That's very important. So like getting those estoppel agreements potentially in the beginning because that ended up causing issues at the end before closing multiple times. And then not necessarily vetting buyers very well.

So, like, one example that's kind of funny is I had a guy trying to buy two properties for $600,000. We fell like two weeks prior to close because he couldn't get financing. And I learned that he had like less than $8,000 in his, less than $10,000 in his bank. And he was trying to put 25% down. And I'm like, do we even do the math here? That's so funny. Because I could just totally see how this method would attract those problems, right? this is like trying to find a date on Craigslist.

You're like, it's a numbers game, baby. You just got to keep lining them up because you're going to get these people that are looking for a deal that's unrealistic. The $8,000 guy, I bet you what he was doing was he brought this deal to other people and he was trying to get their money on this deal that had a high cash on cash return number because he listens to the podcast and he hears Brandon Turner say, when you have a great deal, you can find the money. So he didn't tell you that.

He's like, yeah, I'll buy it. And then he's running around telling everyone. he can. Like, what's the raising private capital script I'm supposed to use? He's trying to get someone to come in on the deal. He ran out of time and then he has to just back out of it. And you, Josh, you get to sort of work your way through all of these really incredible scenarios that normally a real estate agent like us, we're like, oh, let's see your proof of funds. Oh, you have $8,000. No, we're not going to go show you homes. You didn't get to do that. So did you put a system together? Do you have like a checklist now? Do you have a screening process for both the buyers and the sellers?

Definitely, yeah. I try to write procedures for as many things as I can. I hop on a phone call immediately with the people as soon as I meet them. A little 15 minute meeting. Make sure, like, hey, like, are you pre-approved? If not, I have these lenders that I recommend. They're great in this area. When I connect with them, I try to figure out their timeline. You know, when you go when you look into a lockdown a deal. Another thing I think is really important for working with investors is what is your criteria? Right. A lot of investors don't necessarily. put that forward and the agents can end up wasting time because they don't really know what the people are looking for. Yeah, I think that's a common complaint investors have too. I told them what I want. The agent didn't listen to me. That's one way to mess it up. The other ways the agent doesn't even think to ask what do you want. You know, it's funny in our world. We'll say, someone will say they want a deal and we don't even think to ask them to define what they mean by deal. Some people mean a really high cash on cash return. Some people, mean a property in the best area. Some people mean something at significantly less than ARV. Some people

mean just any multi-unit property. It can mean so many different things to people about a deal without asking what that means. It's very hard to make sure that what you're bringing them is going to land. In your experience, what are most of your investor clients looking for in what they call a deal? Around 60% of the people are trying to get into real estate. They have kids. They have a full-time job. They're not trying to, you know, quit everything and just through real estate. So they want properties that are turnkey or close to. They're occupied. They're producing a good sense of cash flow.

And they can buy a couple of those a year and be happy with a good portfolio when they're done. And then the other 40% of people, I would say, are looking to do value ad, the borrower strategy, creative financing when it comes up, self-management, anything that's a little bit more involved and requires a lot more of your time. That's for the other people. So these are the financial freedom group that you're basically working with. They're trying to get up enough cash

where they can quit their job. Yeah, yeah. I have a lot of calls where the first two minutes it's like, yeah, I want to retire in five years. It's like, you can do it. It's just hard. Let me show you how to sell some duct tape wallets. So you mentioned something earlier, Josh,

term estoppel. Do you think you can just give us a quick definition of what that is? Because it seemed like that was something that was popping up. in a lot of these deals that fell out. Yeah. It's basically a summary of what the tenant is paying,

what their lease terms are, and showing that they have been paying. I don't actually use estoppel agreements. That's just like a term that I thought most people knew. But it's basically I want to see the rent history. Like sometimes the seller will just show me bank account to show the deposits are coming in or an actual like summary or an owner statement

from the property management company. something showing that the cash flow is real. It's not fake. So you close this first deal. Eleven deals, right, fall through. You close your first deal. Tell us a little bit about the actual numbers on that first one. You said that it was, I guess, the same as working a month and a half in the DoorDash world, right? Yeah. So it was a $450,000 for unit. There was 3% paid to the agent that I was working under. so he got $9,000, or sorry, $12,000, and then I got a quarter of that, so I got around like three grand.

Nice. How did that feel? That was really cool. That was the biggest check I think I've ever gotten, and I was like a little intimidated, but I was like, we don't spend this now. This is like our life for the next like two months. Oh, yeah. That's a lot of ramen noodles right there, especially at the beginning when you're grinding so much.

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you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.com slash. rookie. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring indeed is all you need. So let's fast forward a little bit, because I know you're grinding it out on the, you know, on the agent's side. Tell us about your actual first deal, because David mentioned at the beginning of the show that you bought 10 deals, which I think was about $1.5 million in total for the portfolio. So how did you actually get into the investing side of things? Definitely. So I started to sell a lot of properties. By month six, I had scaled my business up to like $50,000 a month in commission. So I had actually had cash reserves and I found these two duplexes listed by the same agent. They had been sitting

on the market for a few months. So I called them up and he was like, yeah, the owner has short-term debt on it. He really needs to sell it. They're getting ready to call as a note. And they were basically willing to sell them at like a 30% discount. And I ran my number. and I was like, this could make for a great burr, like both of them. You could be all in right around 70 to 75% A.RV. When you pull your money out, it's still going to produce a pretty solid cash flow. So I had to really trust my numbers, but I decided to go after one of them. Okay.

So, wow, that's $50,000 a month. That's what you were making. How old were you when you reached that number? 21. 21. David, does that make you feel like, I feel so lazy as a, like as a 21 year old when I was, but I was not doing that. I was like trying to make, I don't know, man.

That's crazy. Congratulations. That is so cool. I was making less than that in a year. And that was still more money than everybody else that I knew. Dude, that's crazy. So all of that, the $50,000 a month, obviously that's going to lead into your investment strategy.

But that just came from hunkering down on your agent business, growing those systems, developing your processes. And then you like grew it into just 50, a month? That's insane. Yeah, and by month 8, I actually got it to about 100K. So ever since then, I'm right around 100,000 a month. I've been using, I've been leveraging VAs for a lot of procedures. I try to do, I try to delegate as many tasks as I can as a realtor. Try not to, I don't know, spend all day writing contracts as an example, because I can take like 30 minutes on average. And a lot of days I'm writing between 8 and 10 offers. That would be my indebt.

entire day. So, um, can I come work for you, please? Can David and I come work, come work for you? Uh, okay, so you have no deals in the first three months and you start to fire on all cylinders. By June of 2022, you decided to get your first investment, which is a burr, it sounds like, or some kind of rehab. How did that go? Was that like a whole new set of skills that you had to learn after already being so good at the real estate side, the, the, the reality side? Yeah. I mean, I had never done any rehabs. I didn't really know how to price things out very well. So one of these contractors that I had been working with for my clients, I was like, hey, can you walk this for me? Give me a bid. It gave me a bid. The numbers made sense. And another thing was, is I could only get the price where it made sense if the owner was able to sell both of them. So I was able to find another investor to buy the other one at the same time. We lined them both up. I used hard money for mine. They landed up to 90% of the project cost. which is your purchase price plus your rehab,

or 70% of the ARV, whichever number is less. Well, it sounds like we're already in the deal deep dive, because this is what we're going to talk about. So let's go ahead and make this official. At this segment of the show, we dive deep into a particular deal that our guest has done and get the juicy Dietz. So first question, what kind of property is this, Josh?

It's a duplex, two bedroom units. Are you sure there are two bedroom units? Do you know what you have? Are you one of those sellers that claims that he's got more bedrooms that he does. I knew. Luckily this time I knew. All right. We'll take your word. And how'd you find it? He was on the market. It had been on there for a few months. And I called the agent. And he was like, we have to, you know, the sell of the current owner has short term debt on it. They're getting ready to call it. He really needs to sell. If you can sell this one and another one, you can get around a 30%

discount. So my job was to try to sell one of them because in my current situation, I was only comfortable with taking down one deal. I didn't want to start with two $40,000 rehabs. Okay, how much was this property? It was $85,000. And the rehab estimation was right around like $30,000 for the one that I took down. And the ARV that I had projected based on sales comps was right around $155,000. And how did you negotiate it?

I mean, the agent basically told me that if you can close quick, if you can not have many contingencies. You can get it at this price. So then I counted around like 10,000 lower. And then we met about halfway in the middle and got the deal done. And how did you end up funding it? I used hard money. So I had to put down around like 10%. And then I applied my commission because I was representing myself as part of my down payment. So I was only really out of pocket like $10,000. And would you end up ultimately doing with this property? So I renovated it. It took a little bit longer than expected as probably the vast majority of projects do. I learned a lot. As soon as I was done, I went to the bank. I refinanced it. I got almost all my money back out. And now I run it as a rental.

Okay. So that was the outcome there. Tell me what lessons did you learn from this deal? You know, I was really scared of debt. I really didn't have any debt prior to this. I was definitely scared of short-term debt because the hard money is like they're knocking at your door in six months like it's due the property you have to either have to pay it off you have to refinance it or you have to sell it so i was definitely intimidated taking on a property that currently wasn't livable and needed around 30 grand to be livable so um those are the things that i was scared of but i learned from the investors and mentors around me that you really need to trust your numbers like in any instance when evaluating a deal because, you know, that's what you can rely on,

especially when you feel uncertain. So, Josh, I guess I'm trying to understand because I know you said you use hard money and you were really nervous about, I guess, getting into this property and that you needed $30,000 of work. But if I'm remembering correctly, was, were you making $50,000 a month at this point? Yes. Yeah. So what was the real concern here?

Because it seems like, you know, you probably could have. covered expenses pretty easily. Yeah, I mean, the property was also not in a city that I was living in. So I was kind of mimicking the experience of an out-of-state investor because I bought it sight unseen and I was managing the entire project from remote. So I learned that. So how do you feel now, though, like, do you feel looking back, where you like, oh, it actually wasn't that bad? Or do you still have some of those same reservations doing the out-of-state stuff? I mean, after the first one, it's, I feel way better. I feel a lot more confident. I can relax. in my team. I can rely on the knowledge that I bring to the table by understanding sales comparables

and things like that. I've got two questions. One, have you read long distance real estate investing? Yes. I think it was the first book I read. Okay, good, because that's the first book I wrote. So we have something in common. Number two, if I were to make a revised version of this book, based on your experience doing this deal out of state, what would you include or what would you tell me to include in the book? I read it a while ago. maybe this was in there, but... Bro, you're 22 years old. How long ago could a while...

I don't know, two years? Year and a half. I would rely on multiple project managers, right? Those, that can take the form of an agent, just popping in every once in a while. That can be your property manager that is responsible for tenant relations, or that can just be a completely different contractor

that comes in with his own third-party opinion about how your project's going. So you agree that the philosophy, of have several people looking over everyone's work could extend into the actual rehab management. That's what you're saying? Yeah. Okay. Anything else that I should know?

Because I think I will revise this book, the Burbuk, a couple other ones when I get some time. I'm just curious what needs to go in these books to update them. Don't rely on sales comparables that are old when you're initially looking at the deal. Because generally, at least in my state, the appraisers are going to look at the six months, like the most recent sales in the last six months when they're appraising your property when it's done. So the one thing that I did on my first deal was I was relying on a deal two doors down that appraised for the price I was going after. But by the time I was done with the rehab, that sales comp was outside the six month window so they no longer could use it.

That's probably more relevant today, right? I think so. Yeah. I was just about to say for the last 10 years, you looked at comps and that was your worst case scenario. Odds are it was going to be better by the time it was done. Yeah. The market has turned around. Rates that went from 3% to 7, 8%. Now we're seeing appraisals come in low very frequently, right? A house could have sold for 800,000.

You list it for 750. The appraisal comes in for 685 or something because rates have gone up so much. So that's another thing you got to beware of is prices can go down now that rates have gone up and that can catch people by surprise. Any other surprises that came up specifically when it came to buying in another state that you just weren't prepared for? You know, always estimate a little bit over your initial rehab budget. The first deal I bought, I don't think the contractor looked up in the attic, but there were live electric wires running on the wood like floor in the attic, which is number one, very dangerous and number two, illegal. And I had to address that

immediately that bumped my rehab budget around 10%. So I think at every project I've done since then, there's always things that pop up. I think a tenant per second I get a disease just should always be used. What about picking tenants? What can you tell us about choosing tenants, looking into tenant history? What are some things you look for?

You know, if you're buying something already tenant occupied, make sure they're paying. They're paying on time. You can kind of see that the way that they're living. If you go in there and there's stuff everywhere and it's full to the ceiling. You might not always get your rent on time, let alone even get it. So you can still make deals work even with a non-paying tenant, depending on how good it is, right?

Just make sure you're accounting those expenses in your numbers. Yeah, we briefly mentioned this earlier and it's worth repeating. It's very easy to, especially if you're a new investor, you haven't done this for a while, to get a lease to see this property is making $950 a month to run your numbers based on the lease. you close on the property, you realize the tenant's eight months behind in rent, hasn't been paying, the landlord hasn't wanted to pay for an eviction or can't afford an eviction, and so they just sold it to you. That's why we verify that the money's actually being deposited in the bank, not just what the lease is for.

And this is really, really, really important when you're buying off-market properties or deals directly from sellers like you're saying, because most people, when their property is doing well, they don't think I should sell it. even if their return on equity is low, unless there's like serious concerns in the market and people are thinking, I don't want to sell before things turn around.

If your property is making money and nothing's going wrong, you just don't think about selling it. But when things start breaking, tenants stop paying, it becomes a headache. You try to fix it. When you realize you can't fix it quickly,

sell, which is often exactly when buyers are getting introduced to that deal. And if you go in as the buyer, expecting this is just like a regular house on the MLS that a seller is put in pristine shape and they're trying to get top dollar. You can really get taken advantage of. Is that something?

Do you have any stories you can share of clients you've had or situations you've had where that's been the case? Yeah, an off-market deal that I didn't sell, but it was in my office. This is a great example. It was a duplex where both tenants were paying $1,100 a month. The rental comps were truly around $900, max $1,000. So it was really high, which should always be a red, flag if you're seeing units renting for way more than what everything else is around it. But when

that property closed, when the seller got his key or when the seller PM got their keys and they went to the property, both units were vacated. It's vacant. And they both left. So they were in that investor, I'm assuming, was writing a numbers based on $2,200 a month in rent. And they're not going to be getting that. That's a great example. Thank you for sharing that. So let's get some quick clarity here. This was your first deal, how quickly did the rest of your deals come together after this first one? Yeah. So the next four that I bought were in around a month to two months after that. And then ever since that I've been picking up about one to three every single month. And are these, you're finding them the same way that you were finding deals for clients?

Yeah, pretty much the same ways. Yep. All right, Josh, looking ahead, what does your plan look like for how you intend to scale your portfolio? I'd like to build more contracting teams so that I can take on more projects at a time. Right now I'm working on 15 units. I'd like to build a 10x to that rely on more people, W2 more positions so that I can rely on them more and cut your cost on a little bit. Those are some lessons that I've learned from professional property managers. Now, are you using the Burr method on these properties very often? Yes, for sure. Okay. So with the change in the seasoning period that we're seeing with a lot of conventional

lenders. Have you considered how that's going to affect how quickly you can get capital out and the speed you'll be able to scale? Definitely. My strategy hasn't really been affected by that because I actually am not lendable still because I don't have two years of the same income as a 1099 person. So basically I'm just refinancing out in non-QM products. That is awesome. Hey, David, you mentioned that there's a change in the seasoning period. What is that change? Like, is it, I know with the burr, you have to have the tenant in there for, I think, six months. Is that what you mean? Now it's longer than six months? No, it's not necessarily the tenant has to be in there. But if you are buying a property that has a loan on it and you want to refinance and pull cash out of the property,

you now have to wait 12 months instead of six months if you're going to use a convention alone. Now, Josh mentions he's using non-QM, which stands for non-qualified mortgage. This would be like DSCR products that you're hearing a lot of people talk about. It's important also to note that that does not mean like subprime crap. These are still 30 year fixed rate loans. It's not a whole lot of the rate's going to be a little bit higher because they're not going to be basing your ability to repay off of the money you make. They're going to be basing it off of what the property will produce itself, sort of commercial underwriting guidelines. But many loans are making you wait 12 months before you can take cash out of a property, not six. So it sounds like from what you got going on,

Josh, and this isn't slowing you down because you're just making money through commissions as an agent. You're not going to run out of cash, right? I don't think so, no. Yep. I love that multi-pillared approach, right? When you're not dependent on just one pillar, these changes don't throw your game off because you've got several different approaches here.

What are you thinking, Rob, about moving forward, Josh's strategy? I think it's good, man. I mean, I would definitely want you to, I mean, you're picking up a lot, right? And I think it would be wise to really settle into it, right? If you're at this point where you're at 10, I would start thinking about with, I guess I'm just seeing it in your personal situation, you're young, you're hungry, you're making a ton of money, and you're doing the right thing.

You're buying property. Instead of just pocketing 100K every month, you're moving it into real estate funds. But I would say now is a moment to maybe kind of take a step back and start considering your scale approach, right? Like how can you stop putting so much time into one to three properties every month and how can you start maybe focusing on bigger plays that can maybe even effectively, you know, lower your tax bill? Because I know that this is something that you're probably dealing with for the first time making a ton of money and having to pay a ton of taxes on it, right? Yes. Yep. So I kind of jumped on the whole tax situation as early as I could. As an agent, I set up my intake commission through an escort versus an individual. So that lowers my tax burden

substantially. And then I can also leverage like cost segregations as well in the properties that I'm keeping to lower my commissions coming in. I'm trying to utilize as many strategies as I can. Absolutely. You don't hear 22-year-olds talk about cost segregation all that often. Never heard that come out of a 22-year-old's mouth, actually, the first time. Seriously, dude. I feel like we got to talk about cost aggregations more just on the podcast because it is like the real estate cheat code that can save you. I mean, in your case, hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes. So that's cool, man. I'm really glad to see that you're saying it. It seems like you're scaling up according to.

to like what you can do. So just think about how you can most effectively use your time. Because you got the time and the money right now. Now you just got to figure out how to use it the most effectively. True. So your first goal was to replace your door dash income. You've done that. What's your next goal? My next goal. I want to have 100 units by the end of the year. 100 units by the end of the year. That's all. Yeah. Yeah. That's just a little. I mean, it seems like you're thinking about exactly I'm talking about. Right. One to three properties in a year. that's going to be 10 to 30 property. So obviously you're thinking, how can I get to 100, right?

So I think it's so cool, man, that you're on this podcast. It's a very inspirational story. You went from being a door dash driver to owning a $1.5 million portfolio. And it's also just so crazy to know that next year, your portfolio is going to be wildly different than what we're talking about today. I think so, yeah. So congratulations, Josh. This is an awesome story.

Thank you for sharing where you're at. very inspirational. You haven't let anything stop you, including your age or how much I think you look like Dave Franco. You're pushing forward in spite of all of this. You could be in the Hollywood route. Instead, you took the real estate investing route. So welcome to our side. If people want to find out more about you, where's the best place that they can find you? Two places. You can follow or message me on Instagram at Josh Janus, just my name. And then same thing on bigger pockets. Joshua Janus. I'm on there. All right.

Rob, where can people find out more about you? You can find me over on Rob Built on YouTube and Instagram and in your heart. And well, that joke won't land because the other podcast comes out after this one. You will see why I laughed if you listen to a future podcast episode. That will make a lot of sense. This was a callback before it was actually said. This is some tenant type stuff that we're getting into where we're manipulating time for you guys on a podcast. you're going to love it.

It's a call forward. Yes, call forward even better. There you go. Josh, it totally makes sense. You don't know what we're talking about. It will in the future. So just hang with us here. Thanks for me to get support.

You can find me on social media at David Green 24. Don't ever send money to me because I'm not asking for your money. There's a lot of fake accounts out there. So hopefully at one point I'll be able to get the blue check mark. I heard that meta is changing it so that you just pay like 15 bucks a month and people can stop getting scammed. It's about time. You can also find me on YouTube at David Green 24 or go to my.

my website david green 24.com and see what i got going on josh fantastic job very very very excited to hear what you're doing especially because you're an agent and you're moving forward check out my books let me know what you think about the three books i wrote for uh in the top producing agent series for bigger pockets i'd be curious what you think is someone who's 22 and is already crushing it rob you have any last words before we get out of here yeah josh i guess instead you could check out the books that david just talked about but really the book that you need to be checking out is david's upcoming book, Scale, which talks about how as a real estate agent you can scale your business. And that will be coming out soon.

All right. The promo code for that. We don't have one. But anyway, check that out. We've got a call forward and a call back all in the same show. Great job, Rob. And we're back. All right, Josh, we're going to let you get out of here.

This is David Green for Rob, the comedian of a solo. Signing off. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. On the host, an executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer, the show is produced by Ian K, copywriting is by Calico content, and editing is by Exodus Media.

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