BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 77: Negotiating Your Way to 1000 Wholetail Real Estate Deals with Michael Quarles

Episode Date: July 3, 2014

Today on the BiggerPockets Podcast we are excited to welcome Michael Quarles to the show. Michael is an active investor coming out of California’s Central Valley who has done so many deals that he has lost count! His experience is diverse and includes developing, flipping and more, but today his primary strategy is what is known as “wholetailing” and today’s show covers this strategy in detail! Also, as a master negotiator, Michael breaks down the science of haggling a deal that both honors the seller and benefits the investor. This episode is so jammed-packed that you’ll finish feeling like you just graduated with a degree in negotiation! You even get to walk away word-for-word scripts! You really don’t want to miss this one! In This Show, We Cover: How Michael convinced a stranger to give him $200,000 in order to invest in real estate. The complete breakdown of what wholetailing is and how to do it… The 5 important question you HAVE to ask leads over the phone Practical lesson in Neuro Linguistics – Complete with role playing! The importance of  being ethical and taking care of people  The peanut butter story… The proper mindset behind negotiating Getting over fear in order to take action and much, much more! Links Mentioned BiggerPockets Ultimate Beginner’s Guide to Real Estate Investing Books Mentioned in the Show Pitch Anything by Oren Klaff E-Myth by Michael E. Gerber Connect with Michael Michael’s BiggerPockets Profile Michael’s Website: http://www.yellowletters.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast, show 77. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the height, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dork and host of the... the Bigger Pockets podcast here with Mr. Brandon Turner, my fabulous co-host. What's up,

Brandon? What is up, Josh? Busy day, huh? Holy smokes, man. Today was one of those insane days. And why, why you might ask? Why, Josh? What happened today? Well, today was the day that the new Bigger Pockets was born. Officially, everybody is now completely 100% switched on for the new Bigger Pockets. So it was a, it was, you know, there's a lot of work that goes behind, not only the thousands of hours in building it, but actually the launch. So we're done. We're launched. And a great sigh of relief has been had by all. There you go. There you go. Well, I also want to say thank you to all the beta testers that have been testing the last couple weeks. A lot of people transitioned over to the beta version. And we got a lot of good feedback and tweaked a lot of stuff. And now it is

ready to go. So it is awesome. Awesome. Yeah. So check it out, www. www.bakerpockets.com We'll see you over there. Of course. Oh, and check out the new video we made. I don't know if we've ever talked about that on the podcast. Oh, yeah, we did. If you go to BiggerPockets.com, the homepage, we made this really cool commercial, this kind of promo video that I think is absolutely fantastic. And, you know, Brandon did the bulk of the work, so it deserves the bulk of the credit.

It's astonishing. It's amazing. Check it out. Yeah, you might have to log out of your account to actually see it, though, because if you go to the homepage, it'll redirect you if you're logged in. So I don't know. We might have to actually change that around. Who knows?

Yeah, we'll whatever. All right. So yeah, check it out, biggerpockets.com on the homepage. So, yeah, cool. Here we are, man. We've got a, we've got an amazing show today. In fact, this is a show a lot of you guys have been asking for before we get into it. I'm going to do really quickly today's quick tip.

All right, today's quick tip. Now that we have the newly designed site when you log into Bigger Pockets, you'll see on your dashboard on the right side, there's a little, Square that shows you the newest podcast episode. If you click that, it'll open up the podcast episode in a new window. So while you're browsing the site, you could sit around and listen to the show. In fact, if you decide to leave bigger pockets, you can continue to listen to the show. So definitely check it out that way. And we're going to improve it pretty soon so that you can go back and look at old episodes on there as well. So cool. Yeah. Stay tuned for that.

It's a cool little widget. So yeah, check it out. Awesome. But that's today's quick tip. now that we've got that out of the way, let's get to the show. So today's guest is a man who's been quite active on Bigger Pockets. He's an active real estate investor out of California, Central Valley, who specializes in something people call wholesaling, which is a really cool strategy that anyone, especially new investors, or those tired of dealing with rentals or rehabs, can get into pretty easily. Our guest is Michael Corals. Michael has done between 500 and a thousand flips, hotel flips in his investment career,

and he's very active in helping people on the site, as I already mentioned. Ironically, the guy doesn't even know how many deals he's done, he's done so many. You know things are good when you can't even count how many deals you've done. So that's pretty awesome. Michael's also the owner of Yellow Letters.com, one of the leading direct mail companies out there, and he's definitely, definitely one of the brilliant marketing lines on bigger pockets. But today we're actually not going to be focusing on marketing. I know it's a shock and I know everybody who wants to hear Michael wants to hear about marketing,

but the conversation was going to get there and it just never actually got there because we got so deep into some other topics. And we're going to do another show later on the marketing side. Today we're going to get into a fascinating, fascinating. fascinating discussion, all about talking with sellers and negotiating great deals. It's literally just a schooling on how to negotiate. And if you want to hear Brandon get his backside beat by by a master of negotiation, definitely pay attention. It's a lot of fun. We do a lot of role playing, we being Brandon and Michael, I just sit back and watch. And it's fascinating. So if you want to learn

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this is a no-brainer. So visit costsegregationguise.com slash BP for your free proposal and find out how much you could save this tax season. So let's get this thing going. All right, Michael, welcome to the show man good to have you here it's fun to be here i think it's going to be fun anyway good luck yeah the hot seat huh oh yeah the hot seat yes and you're in it today so uh yeah we're gonna talk about your story how you got started um for those people who don't know michael is extremely active on the bigger pockets forums he's in there all day um not you know all day every make it sound like he's got no life he's sits in there no he's but he's all like he's always helping people out answering questions

And so I know this is, he's been one of our most in-demand guests. So we're excited to pick your brain today. Definitely. Cool. Do we get points for it? Yes. All right. Let's talk about how you got started in real estate.

What did you do beforehand and how did you get into this? My father was a, you know, I kind of had to live with him because he was my father. He was a concrete guy. And if I wanted to eat, then I would go and work with him weekends. and after school and all that kind of good stuff. And so he taught me a basic form of construction, pouring concrete lane block. At 18 years old, like most people at 18 or some people at 18, I moved out and enlisted in the Air Force, went down, took my physical bent over, all that going to good stuff.

Nice for detail. Didn't enjoy it. Well, maybe I did. Yeah, the Air Force or the exam. The proctorologist. So here I am. I have a report date to the Air Force, and it's like in October or November. And I'm in the middle of summer.

And I pick up the newspaper, look in the classified section for some really strange reason. I have no clue why I'm doing it. And I see this ad for a piece of real estate. And it was a property listed by Century 21. And so I called the guy. We went out and met at the property. I bought it. It was a vacant R2 lot.

I had no clue what R2 was and must have been important. And so I bought this thing. And because I had a prior, like I poured concrete as a child, I thought, well, I could do this. I could build a building on this piece of property. Didn't have my contractor's license. Took architectural drawing in high school, so I knew how to do a stick drawing of a building. Went down while I was in escrow to purchase the property. I had no money, by the way.

And I didn't realize at the time that when they asked. for a deposit check. They actually wanted to cash the deposit check. I thought they were just going to hold the deposit check. So here I am. I go down in the building department. I give them my stick drawings. I get my permit.

Now, this was 30 years ago. So things 30 years ago were a little bit different than they are today. I pour my concrete. I'm framing. I'm doing stuff on this property that I do not own. I thought that when you entered escrow, then that meant you had the right use. So that meant that you had the right to do something to the property.

So here comes the owner of the property. He comes up and he drives up. He says, what are you doing? And I said, I'm building in a duplex. How's it look? And he says, well, but you don't own the property. I said, yeah, but escrow is going to close on this, you know, date forward. And I had no clue.

And then about two days later, my realtor comes, only property I've ever bought through the MLS. realtor comes up and he's all frustrated with me he says mike i got to talk to you and i said what's up said you can't be doing this and i said well i'm doing pretty good job and he says and besides your deposit check bounced and i said you deposited it oh yeah so we worked out with the the owner of the property to do carry back a seller carry back instead of cash purchase because he realized i didn't have the money for the deposit E-Ren. So I got kind of lucky at a nice seller and a somewhat understanding realtor. And from there, I finished my duplex. I sold it. I had this little itty-bitty chunk of money. Like it was like $12,000.

And keep in mind, I'm 18 years old. And I've never seen $12,000 consecutively in my life. Air Force is coming. And I'm thinking, you know, I've got a report. I called my Air Force recruiter. And I said, you know, I just fell in love with dirt. And he kind of, he sounded like I was stupid. And I said, no, I just, I really did. I just fell in love with dirt. I said, I just did something. I made $12,000. I don't want to go in the Air Force. Can I get out? And he said, well, come on in, sign these papers. I hope that the papers that I signed Menti was out of the Air Force, because I never went into the Air Force after that. But from there, from there, I bought another piece of property and another piece of property and another piece of property. I absolutely fell in love

with dirt. And I think it's, you know, from a perspective of, I never really saw my dad have a job. So, because he was always self-employed. I didn't know what it was like to have a job. I worked at McDonald's one summer just because I wanted to date the girl that worked at McDonald's there too. So started with with that and started building, started selling, started building, started selling, realized at some point that I had a big O.S on my chest. I couldn't do anything wrong. So I was having like 12 plexes going and multiple fourplexes going. I had a track of houses going. And it was just fun.

Like I said, I fell in love with it. It was totally an accident. And had I known what I know now, I would have never done it. So I would not be a real estate investor. I'd be an Air Force something. Nice. Nice. All right.

So you buy this first property. You bill during escrow. The guy doesn't sue the pants off of you, even though you didn't have pants to pay for your own pants. whatever, whatever I'm talking about. Yeah, no, nothing happening at that point. And you start getting into these projects. Now, were you just buying vacant lots and doing new builds, or were you doing, you know, tearing down existing properties? What was the plan? In the beginning, the first one was just a regular R2 lot, vacant lot. Nothing was on it prior. It was a PUD, and I had

no clue what a PUD was until I bought it and did that. And what's a PUD for those people listening? For our area, is that means you have to bring it up to a certain use. So, you had to have landscaping and off street parking and the outside of the property had to conform to what the county at that time wanted. You just couldn't go and build whatever you wanted. You had to meet certain requirements, much more or much greater than a building code requirement. Now, the first one was okay. I thought that one was pretty cool. The second one was even worse. So now I had a little, I had a little money. I now knew that I actually had to buy a piece of property and had to own it in order to do something with it. So I had my little,

$12,000 and I bought this other piece of property, sought in the newspaper, it was on an alley. I would never suggest anybody buy a piece of property when the street name is something alley, because it literally was an alley. Nice. Not the most desirable neighborhood. So anyway, I know I'm going to need supply, so I go to the largest supplier in our city before the home depots and the lows and all those companies. And I go into the owner of the company.

Here I am. Now I'm probably 19 and a half or so. and I go in there and I say, and I meet him, and his office is bigger than any house had ever been in. And I tell him what I want to do. And I said, I just, you know, I can pay you when I'm done. And he was in his like 70s, and I don't think 70s old, but he may have not heard me correctly because I actually meant when I'm, I'll pay you when I'm done. And so about three months were going by and I was building this property. And all of a sudden, this Cadillac shows up with these two older gentlemen in it.

And one of them is this person that owns this company. And the other one is his accountant. I said, Mike, I have this problem. And I said, well, what's that? And he says, you owe us some money. And I said, well, yeah, I'm going to pay you when I'm done. And he remembered the conversation. And he had a couple dollars himself.

He says, well, how much money do you need to finish? Because he could tell it was like two thirds done. And I gave an amount of money. And he says, well, come into my office on Monday and I'll give you that money to finish. He didn't know me except for my first conversation with him three months earlier. And from there, I went to his office, did it. it, finished that project, started another one, started another one, started another one. He financed all these things for me. One day, and I hate saying it, especially on a podcast,

but I'm going to, because I think it's a little bit significant. So here I am in his office one day, and I'm signing a loan for $240,000. And he asked me, he says, Mike, how old are you? And I didn't know how old I should be. for the question asked. So I said something other than my actual age because I wanted to be older, so he wouldn't feel so silly, loaning a 20-year-old, a quarter of a million dollars. It went well.

And then I started evolving into understanding the real estate structure and how to buy property and how to sell housing and multiple units. And at some point, buying property that was already established already created was cheaper than building property much faster. So before we get on to that, let me go back to this guy that you met. I guess I want to know, like, how did he, do you think he was crazy to do that? Like, I mean, you don't hear about that. Like, why did he do that?

Well, I think it's like, why does anybody do anything with someone? And I think it's all about that person's confidence. And the confidence, you know, comes from actual confidence, but it also comes from a lot of naivity too. I didn't know what I didn't know. And they didn't come across like I was an ignorant person. I wanted to accomplish a task. I had pretty much the goal set in mind so I could I could see the beginning, the middle, in the end. So I could lay it out for him. And maybe he had a desire to help people and probably did. And he helped me a lot. And it's cool. It seems like, you know, if you come off like you're a know-it-all and somebody could read through it, they're going to say,

oh, this guy's full of nonsense, right? But if you come off as somebody who legitimately wants to do it and probably has the wherewithal and the hustle, so to speak, to actually make it happen, then it's a whole other story. Like for me, I'll work with a hustler any day of the week, because I know they'll do anything they can, even if they don't know something, to get it done. And maybe that's what it was. Yeah. I, you know, I think maybe that time you saw me actually working. Yeah. And, you know, because I had tool bags on and, you know, I was actually working, building

this property. Yeah. May it gave it some credibility. And over just the guy in the suit that's trying to, trying to do whatever they're doing. So, I don't. But it was fun. So let me ask you, you literally from day one to today, it sounds like you pretty much figured it out on your own.

Is that true? Or did you have some folks help out? I've never gone to a, like a mentor or coaching class or, you know, the book, you know, the book I love the most, I don't have one because I didn't read about real estate. I read my contractor's, I guess, exam book. But other than that, I learned the hard way. Yeah. And the problem with learning the hard way, it takes a little bit longer to do and it's expensive. But learning it the hard way also didn't stop me. So like if I was going to mentor someone today,

And they asked me a question, can I write a check to the agent for the deposit knowing that I don't have the money in the bank? I would have said you absolutely cannot do that. But because I didn't know that I couldn't and I did it, it could have been bad. But I think sometimes we just have to do it. And doing it's more important than the outcome. I've generally found in life, and this is not 100% correlation, but the people that I know that are the most successful, whether it's on bigger, pockets or in the real world. People that are most successful at real estate investing are those who did learn the hard way. I mean, I can probably count on one hand the number of people I know

that have gone through an expensive training class or training course or whatever and became successful after. I mean, there are people that does happen. But by far, the number of people I know that learned by screwing up and making those mistakes and buying properties that they maybe shouldn't have bought. I don't know. I see that a lot. And I don't know what that is. But I think there's just better education and experience. there is in education, if that makes sense. If we're ever going to take two types of people, one person that didn't know anything and hadn't learned anything, and the other person that knew some stuff but wanted to learn

more, I think the second person is a better candidate. Because they learned on their own, they've gotten to a position where they understand the basics of real estate investing. To take that person and help him or her to succeed more is easier. Taking that first person who's really just so afraid to jump. you know, fear's always motivated me. It's never stopped me. So, you know, some people look at, I'm afraid to fail. Well, I say the same thing, but it means exactly the opposite to me. Yeah. I'm afraid to fail. Like, and my failure is not succeeding. And their failure is not succeeding, but they don't look at it like that. Um, so I do everything I can do to make sure at the end of the day, I can say I was success. You know, this is what I did today. Yeah. I love that. I love that. I mean, I, I run my business the same way. And in fact, some of the most successful people that I know in different industries, you know, I talk with lots of people about what they do and their work. And, you know, it tends to come out that those folks, you know, you get hired to some new job. You don't necessarily know what you're doing. There might be some training. But most of life, I think, is kind of figuring it out. And the key is, can you do that? Do you have the wear with all the guts to do that? And the stamina to deal with the fear of not fully understanding and maybe having to report to people. who say, hey, you know, what's going on? Where are you at? And, you know, if you don't know,

being, you know, comfortable enough to say, hey, you know, we're just trying to, we're sorting through a couple details, whatever it is. But yeah, I think that's really important is, you know, if you can't get past that fear of some unknowns, you're never going to do anything, let alone real estate. Without a doubt. I mean, talking to the original person who gave me a bucket load of money on several transactions taught me what I needed to know to go to the next person. You know, everybody always asks, how do you get seller financing? Well, you just ask for it. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty basic. It's like you have equity in your property. What are you going to do with the equity? Well, you're going to put it in the bank. Can I show you how,

based upon what you're going to do with your equity when I pay you off? It's a better position power for you to finance the property for me. You already know it's a legitimate asset or you wouldn't be financing it for yourself. And so you're already comfortable loaning the money. We're just going to trade who you're loaning it to. And it would have never taught me that. It would have never taught me that the core principle of negotiation and how to speak to people from what I call a power exchange perspective. I think if we can control who we are and what we represent and the conversations that we're trying to have, people will follow us because a lot of people want to follow people. Yeah. And whether that's good or bad, it's reality. And, you know,

most sellers will never have the negotiation skills that most brand new investors have because the sellers haven't been on bigger pockets reading about investing and negotiation and all that so the brand new investor still has a leg up on the brand new seller in negotiation on how to track sub two financing seller financing all those things so just knowing that you have that ability and that power already you should you should use it and not be worried about Well, I can't ask someone for seller finance using or sub two because of all the reasons why I wouldn't do it. Yeah. And what's the worst that could happen, right?

Yeah. Well, rhetorically probably, what is what is the worst that could happen? Oh, yeah. That's it. At the end of the day, I think we should answer the question. Are we doing anything immoral, unethical, and illegal? Probably in that order. So if it's immoral, like, if it's like really like, yeah, we ought not to be doing this, even though I can legally do it,

or is it unethical? Am I not disclosing something to somebody, although I don't legally have to? Well, if we can answer those questions and all of them are positive, fall forward. Go out there and buy a house. Yeah, that's awesome, Michael. I mean, you know, I think a lot of people on bigger pockets look up to you.

It gives me great joy to hear that coming from you. I mean, not that I didn't expect it from you, but I think, you know, I think we run across some people who don't necessarily believe that and don't run their business that way. And, you know, for those people who know me and listen to me and what I, you know, a spouse, I really do think that we have to work harder to build the image and brand of real estate investors in general, because there are so many shady people in the industry. And I think, you know, ultimately, though, they're dwarfed by the good people. And if, if the good guys

can just, you know, really uphold themselves and run a good, strong, you know, ethical business, I I think we all rise up. Well, if we even take it further than, okay, it's the right thing to do, to be honest and ethical and moral and legal, to the step of what do we get when we do it? Okay, so we get a happy seller, happy transaction. But I call it my peanut butter story, and it's a weird story. I know it's going to sound strange. Wait, you were the weird story.

I don't know, man. Both of us. But I love peanut butter. And if you could see me on camera, you would see that. I love peanut butter. But so. You have it like crumbled all over your face? Yeah.

So great picture, right? So I tell people, I said, here's my peanut butter story. He said, I'm going to go in my grocery store. And in my grocery store are going to be people that I bought a house from because I've bought a lot of houses. And I, if I want to go get my peanut butter that I just love and that one of my sellers is at the end of the peanut butter aisle where my peanut butter is, my favorite brand, if I didn't treat people ethically morally and legally, I couldn't go get my peanut butter.

So seriously, though, if you think about it, I couldn't, I'd have to turn around and run out of the grocery store because I was afraid that I'd see someone or saw someone that maybe I wasn't polite to and how I dealt with their transaction. Well, I want to do that. I want to go down and get my peanut butter, ask them for referrals, shake their hand, how they're doing in life. and more times than not, when you meet someone that you've bought a property from, morally, ethically and legally, they will refer you to other people. So it's the gift that keeps on giving back to yourself. And you can't explain it enough. You can't use it enough. It's one of the biggest marketing tools that are out there.

That's cool. And that's a neat way to look at it, too, the peanut butter story. I mean, in my own life, I see that with my tenants, right? Because my tenants all know who I am. And I mean, I live in a small town, right? I do see them every day. Like I see my tenants at least once a day. I see somebody that I've either rented to in the past or I'm currently renting to.

And yeah, I always want to make sure that there's no awkwardness. I mean, that can't always be because, I mean, I have evicted a couple people. And I'm sure they, but I don't have to feel like I did anything wrong in those situations. Like they run out of the peanut butter aisle if they see me, not the other one. Yeah, now I have two images of Michael. I can see the peanut butter face and the Navy doctor example. So awesome. Thanks, Mike. And it was, no, anyway.

So anyway, I think those components are important, just really important when you start working with people and asking people, you know, when we go out to a house, here's what's crazy, we're going to go out to a house. The sellers called us because we started a negotiation with them with marketing piece. They call us up. We've asked them some questions. They've answered some questions correctly. And based upon those answers, we've decided we're going to go out and make an attempt

to buy a property. we meet them, we say certain things in a certain way, use embedded commands, mimicking, pacing, neuralinguistics, some positive negative reinforcements, some negotiation skill. We get all the way to signing an agreement, explaining the contract, walking away, make an appointment with title to open up escrow, and we're going to ask the seller for seller finance. We want you to loan us $200,000 at 3% interest.

You've never met me before. I'm not filling out a credit app. You don't get to see my FICO score. I'm just a stranger you've never met. Now, how do you go from I've never met you to, I believe, in giving you $200,000? That's a big hurdle. And the reality in that is you do a lot of things on purpose. What do you mean?

What you say. Well, and you're going to think this is silly. So there's a third one coming. A third story. They're a little like, you know, Third image. Oh, yeah. So I don't ring doorbells.

I knock on doors, which maybe that seems odd, but who rings a doorbell? Think about the last time. Door to door sales guy, somebody who wants to solicit something. Yeah. Someone who is insecure. So like the FBI, if they were going to raid your house, they wouldn't use the doorbell. They would knock on the door. With something big probably knocked down the door.

Well, so I knock on door. I let him know that there's a hint, and this is going to sound strange, a hint of power coming through the door in a minute, because I think it's important for someone to know that there's presence in the room, which is kind of really weird. I'm going to step back and look up the street, so I'm going to step back about six feet, look up the street so they can see me through the people. Whether I'm in my suit, I'm in my Levi's or in my shorts, it doesn't matter, but I need to have them feel comfortable with me. They've never seen me before. I need to open the door. I'm going to walk up to them, greet myself, and say thank you for inviting me out.

buy the house today. So the moment that I start my conversation, it started with the marketing piece and the phone call that they called in on. But the moment I meet them, I'm going to start embedding commands with them that I'm going to buy their house today. When you sell me your house today, when we agree on our price today, when you sign the contract, all those things during the conversation. And I'm going to story tell through the conversation. So I'm going to start talking to them about anything that I think is a negative that's going to persuade them to say yes. So as an example, if a family's moving on a job transfer, and how does that relate to a negative to the price tag of the house, is I always ask people on a job transfer, who's

going to stay behind? Or did you want the house sold today to someone that's absolutely qualified, paid cash for the house, and close on the day of the choice? If your choice. So I've been better that I can do that. I've still asked the question, who's going to stay behind? And some people will actually say, well, we were both going to go. And I said, so you're both going to go, really? And so I always follow up a question with, or their answer, with their answer, and then a positive or negative reinforcement. Because I want them to think, this may sound real silly, but I want them to think what they said was either good or bad. Yeah.

Well, you're basically, you're playing puppet with them almost. You're kind of, you're getting them to say what you want them to say, which what they probably, otherwise might not have said. And when it comes from somebody, like if I say something, it's coming from my mouth. So it's going to ring differently than if you say it to me. So you're kind of getting them to say what you want them to say, which they wouldn't say if they didn't really want to say it. This sounds really crazy. But you're basically controlling them in a little bit of a way and getting them to open up, right? In an ethically, morally, and legal way, I want to give them aha moments.

Yeah. I want to give them the aha. Oh, I didn't know that if we both left that my insurance is going to lapse and be canceled because it's going to be a vacant unit. And then I'm going to tell the story of the house I bought from the outside of the house, a cellar and I met at the house. He was at the front door. He opened up the front door. From the outside of the house, it was a perfect house. From the moment he walked into the front door, the house was gone.

I said that. Someone stole every part of the house, the cabinet. the flooring, the doors, the toilets, the sinks, the tubs, everything was gone. What was also gone was his insurance policy. So he didn't really have a house to sell me. He had the outside of the house to sell me. So I can tell those stories because I've lived those stories with sellers and it's grueling. But if I don't tell a new seller that that's a strong possibility, shame on me for not telling them.

I mean, they could take my information and go sell somebody else if they want or go listed on the MLS. It doesn't matter to me. I just have to tell them. I always say you have to magnify the situation so they hear you. If you just go over it really fast, nothing gets heard. It's just a really fast conversation. You're going to go from, thank you to invite me out to look at your house, which is what a lot of investors say, to I think I can give you X amount of dollars. And they're going to say, no, I want more.

If we don't justify in our conversations to a seller, why we are offering what we're offering, then they can't go after I'm done. And here's the key component. You two are friends. Let's assume I'm out to buy one of your homes and you wanted $300,000 for it. You sold it to me for $200,000 after I showed you why, how it's reasonable to reduce it by $100,000. You went to the other person. You guys were having a beer or a glass of wine or a Diet Coke.

and one of you was saying to the other, I just sold my house and the other guy was saying, well, how much you sell it for? And you said, well, I sold it for $200,000. The next thing out of that person's mouth, he's going to say, you're flipping stupid. I would have given you more than $200,000. So if we can't teach the seller to go back to the friend

that they're going to talk to right after we leave and say, oh, no, the $200,000 was great because they did this. They bought it as is. Have you seen an inspection, homebuyers inspection report? he said they wrote three-inch books about how bad my houses. He's going to cover all the costs, all the repairs, whether he's seen them or not, all the costs. He's going to buy it and close it on the day of my choice. He's going to give me cash.

He's actually going to give me 4% on the money I don't need. I'm going to make more money down the line. If I can't teach him to be able to say those things during my presentation, it's going to fall apart. But if I can teach him to say those things and I go through this routine of doing it, then I'm going to get a contract sign. because I can take a motivated seller who's motivated at 300 and I can get them to my price. Makes sense. That's no, well, yeah, I was going to say, that's an awesome tip. Like that, that mindset shift of like if you're, I mean, I like thinking it that way. If your goal is to let the seller be able to convince their friend, if at the end of the day you can do that, then you've succeeded in what you're, what you need to do. I think that's a great way of looking at it. Yeah. Well, if you, if that's outside of it. even real estate if you know if if if you're single and you met this person and you know and

and you wanted them to brag to their best friend about you what would you do yeah hold down my pants I didn't say laugh I said crap boy oh boy we're going downhill I so everybody knows he's actually pulling down his pants all right so Michael you had mentioned I you know I had to lighten up the subject here. You know, from you like enacting voodoo on the cellar to something that people don't want to see. So you had talked about something called neurolinguistics. What is that? Can you explain that? Is that kind of what we've been talking about here? Or what are we dealing with? Well, I'm going to start by saying I've never read a neurolinguistic book. But every time someone sees me do what I do who understands learn linguistics, like, hey, they tell me

that's what you're doing. I said, okay, that's what I'm doing. But it's controlling a conversation based upon my actions, what I'm saying, how I'm saying. Like pacing, people ask me all, because I think pacing in a conversation is important. If I can't pace you and get you to follow me, so I'm pacing you, and then I'm getting you to follow me, then the conversation is not, you're not going to hear me. We don't hear things that were not directed to hear. You know, you're having your conversation. I'm having my conversation. My job as the real estate investor is to get you to hear my conversation. So I have to pace with you. And pacing is, imagine if we're both holding strings and I'm pulling you along and if I pulled you too fast,

I pulled a string out of your hand. If I pulled you too slow, you'd fall on your face. Yep. So I have to keep you at a certain tug and I have to direct you to where I want you to go because if I don't, then it won't work. Because going back to what most of the time, what happens is I have a price, I have a business card. I'm ringing the doorbell. Thanks for coming out, invite me out so I can look at the house today.

And I can give you $55,000 for it. And the seller says, no, that's what happens most of the time. But if I can direct you down this path using embedded commands, some neurolinguistics, like if I have a secret, I'm going to tell you a secret. Hey, Josh, can I tell you a secret? I'm not really listening. I don't understand your pacing. All right, go ahead, yeah.

What's the secret? When you tell someone a secret, what's the one body function you do? You get really close to their ear. Right. And talk quietly. Both people lean forward, right? Yep. So when you tell us secret, and you don't have to tell them a secret in their ear,

but if it's an important thing that you want to get across, you lean forward, they lean forward to you because they think something's coming. It's a secret. And you talk soft and slowly and directly and slow down your pace, and your point will be heard. That's cool. Secrets are powerful. So we're talking about real estate secrets, not like how to make out with a girl at the bar here, right?

Right. Right. Okay. Because I'm like, oh, what's going on? All right. Well, yeah, so what's an example? I mean, like, what would you be telling them about? That I'm the right person.

So you're saying, like, you know, listen here, Bob. Come here. You know, one of the nice. And I'll say it. So, you know, one of the nice things about me buying your house. is that you can close on the day of your choice and have the money when you need it. That's what you want, isn't it? I don't think I'd want to be in a negotiation with you.

I think I'm going to cry. Well, but that's pacing. Yeah, I mean, you're good at it. I'm terrible. Another form of pacing is talking faster than someone's talking because we've all met sellers who go, they talk at a pace like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. blah, blah. And you go, well, I don't know, I don't talk that way. I need to slow you down. So how do I get you to pace my pace? So I'm going to now talk a little bit above you, a little bit faster than you. My tonality is going to be a little bit more than yours. So I'm speaking faster and a little bit louder. I'm going to let you catch up to me because you will. You will do it subconsciously. And then I'm going to pull you right back down. And now we're going to have a normal conversation. so you can hear me. Because until you hear me, I can't negotiate with you. Yeah, that makes sense.

I don't know if that makes any sense. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I think a lot, you know, I think the big issue that a lot of people have is, uh, especially newbies. And let's apply this to investing since that's what the show's about is that they think they're there to do all the talking. And I think what we've experienced, you know, through the 76 shows, whenever we've talked to experienced negotiators, the key. is always you got to listen. If you can hear the other person and hear what their issues are and kind of get them to expose not necessarily vulnerability so you like a shark can go after them, but expose kind of what their needs are, then you're going to be in a much better position. And it sounds like you're getting there through some specific tactics and techniques. Now, are there books on this stuff? I mean, I'm assuming there's books on neurolinguistics and do you have any recommendations on any of that? I don't.

When I put together my presentation, so I'm using embedded commands, I'm using positive and negative reinforcements, I'm pacing, I'm doing some neurolinguistics, and I'm putting all of them together to create a conversation that I want them to hear,

and I want them to hear the reasons behind what I say. And it's kind of strange. So if one of you give me a sentence, say anything to me but a short sentence because I can't remember anything long. Mary once had a little lamb. Mary once had a little lamb? Terrific. Mary once had a little lamb.

Wow. So one was one way and one was another way. So it makes the person who just said it, I've repeated what they said because if we don't repeat what someone says, we can't tell them without doing so that we've listened to them. because that's what a lot of people do is they overtalk the other person. Like what that other person had to say isn't important. So if I say to you, Mary had a little lamb, and I follow it by fantastic, because my voice was raised, my tonality was different. And I wanted you to know that that was a great comment that you just made.

Mary had a little lamb. Wow. When I slowed down my tonality and I put that negative word on the back, now, it's not as good. So when we do this, because always, like an attorney, I never want to ask a question and have a statement that I don't know the answer to or I can't get the answer that I want. But I also tell people, especially people I help, just because I'm teaching someone how to get a lower price, does it mean you should get a lower price than what the price was before you got there? So when I go out to a house, there's really only three things I'm looking for.

I'm looking for a signature on a contract. I want to affirm or confirm what I think I know, and I want to determine what I don't know. Those are the only three things. So when I start determining what I don't know, if what I don't know lowers the amount of my contract that I was ready to contract at to a number, and I get them to that number, great.

Just because I can get them lower than that number, shame on me. You should not use these techniques to just dump on people and take everything they have just because you can't. That would be wrong. But we have to get to the number that's our business number and whatever that is. Well, I think that kind of makes an interesting transition. First of all, we haven't even talked yet about what exactly it is you do today and

you investing. So we'll get that in a minute. But I mean, what is that number to you, I guess? What do you do if a seller comes to you and they've got a property worth $200,000 and they'll sell it to you for 50 because they're extremely motivated. Is it okay to buy it from them for 50 and you're going to make, let's say, 100 grand or whatever off of a flip, let's say. I mean, is that okay? I think it is and it isn't depending on the situation of the person selling.

So I bought a house from a nurse who was dying. So she was literally dying kind of thing. And she wasn't dying like tomorrow. She was going to live for a while. She knew she was going to live for a while. She was selling me this house. She said, if you'll buy it for $65,000, you can have it. 65 was less than the 74 that I was willing to give her for it.

So I said, now, I'm going to give you $74,000. Yeah. Okay. On the flip side of that, you know, about a house from a lady for $15,000, and her neighbor was on the market for $179,000. I thought she was crazy. I confirmed she wasn't crazy because then I had to make sure that I could buy the house. So I had her went out to the house.

We did our walkthrough. We did all this stuff, neurolinguistics and phasing and mimicking and all that. She said, this was what she could do. And I said, well, so you're saying if I can buy it for 15, I could buy it? I'm not saying I can, but I could. And she said, yes. And I said, well, are you willing to do some seller financing to cause the house to be sold today? And she said, yes.

and everything was too easy. It was like too easy, and she was like 80 years old. I said, so here's what I want to do. She says, okay, do you have family, friends, preacher, pastor, anybody that I can meet with with you? And she said, sure, I can have my son here at 4 o'clock. So, fine, I'll help you back at 4 o'clock. I got back at 4 o'clock, knocked on the door, stepped back. So I opened the door.

I said, well, thank you for being here so I can buy your mom. mom's house today. And he says, well, right out of his mouth, he says, I can't believe you're giving my mom $15,000 for this house. And I wasn't sure how he said it because he didn't use any inflections if he was frustrated with me or happy with me. And he said, we have been trying to get her to sell this house so she could move in with us so she could have a happier life for the rest of her life. And the fact that you're going to actually buy the house solves all of our problems. Thank you. Yep. That's great.

That's great. So who are we to judge why someone does what they do? You know, in cases where it's immoral to take more money from someone and their situation demands that you don't take it from them, I think that's wrong. Yeah. That's cool. But I've had superior court judges sit in my conference room. He and his wife came over and his wife was wearing this ring that was more expensive

than the house I was buying. And he says, Mike, I know you're going to make $60,000 buying my house. And I was only buying it like for $60,000. And I said, Your Honor, I am. And we made $72,000 flip in the house. He gave me that money. He knew he was going to give me the money. He was much smarter than I was. But he had a need, he had a motivation to do it. The only thing he asked is don't ever tell anybody who sold you the house. And he had a story. Find him the reason that they're selling, whatever it, sometimes it's rats, but most of the times it's this underlying motivation. They're moving. They're being abused. They're running from someone. They're going to prison. They're going to another step. Whatever it is. If we find it, then we understand the negotiation power

and how to negotiate. And if we do find it, then we can, you know, storytell. We can tell them about other situations that didn't go well for those people. And the perfect example, and I know we have a lot of realtors on the board and I love them to death. Being a broker myself, I understand the whole mind frame and the whole concept of the MLS and selling through agents. But, you know, I can tell the story of having a house listed as a listing agent once in my life. And the seller being in the shower as another realtor used the lockbox to get the key out of it, open up the house, walk all the way back into the bathroom to see this naked cellar in the shower. And Mr. and Mrs. Seller, that's not going to happen to you. Because today when you agree to sell me your house and I agree to buy it and we agree to close in two weeks and I'm going to give you cash, that's not going to happen.

You're not going to have your neighbors coming through your house looking how messy you are, how clean you are, what kind of person you are and passing judgments on you because I'm going to buy your house today. That won't happen. Nice. I think Brandon wants you to buy his house. I'm ready right now. Michael, take it. you've convinced me. Well, but, you know, it's all driven by, of course,

having the opportunity to be up in front of that front door. Yeah. And because we don't magically get there, you know, I guess we could co-call forever and get some appointments, which works if you don't have any dollars or talk to our center of influence and get there. But we've done something to get to that front door. Thinking about wholesaling or flipping your first property, but not sure where to start.

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Head to costsegregation.com before April 15th. Well, so can we transition to that? I do want to talk a little bit more about the rest of your background and kind of what you do today. I mean, obviously you've been around doing. lots of different kinds of deals. But I'd kind of like to work in reverse. So, you know, we just spent a fair amount of time talking about the negotiation once we arrive. How do we get to that point? So, you know, one step back in my mind is, you know, we've done some kind of marketing or we found a property on the MLS, whatever we've done. But, you know, before we even go into that,

I'm kind of, I am going to work backwards. We've got this person that we are going to vet somehow, right so we've got a person we've done the marketing we've got a lead we now need to vet them you've talked about all the linguistics and all the fancy stuff that we would do when we show up what about the stuff that we do when we're on the phone with them when we when we get a lead what are we doing there for me over my career it's evolved from like this super puzzle like with you know like 2,000 puzzle pieces that we had to put together to find the right motivated prospect and now it's that puzzle is only five questions. For me anyway, and a little bit about,

I kind of have to answer the question, what do I do now? And today's marketplace, I require a seller to make me an offer. I am no longer making an offer. And so, well, it's easier. Can you explain that? Well, if I go out to,

before I go out to a home, they've already made me the offer. So when I go out to the home, home and I go through my presentation and I'm subtracting in their head based upon my conversation with them. I mean, they started out at this dollar every time I bring up a negative and I get them to shake their head forward up and down. When you talk to someone and you say something that you want them to agree with, shake your head up and down. Yep. Because you will get the other person to agree. They'll shake their head up and down. Or if something's negative, shake your head side to side.

and it just works. So at some point, we're doing this, and then they're going to give me the offer. And one of you guys want to give me an offer? Make me an offer? You can buy my house today, Michael, for $130,000. I could buy your house today for $130,000. Can you do any better than that? Maybe a little bit.

Maybe a little bit? Maybe a little. How much can you help me out? I could probably do 120. You could probably do 120? You can't see yourself doing better? Maybe 115, but that's my bottom.

You're mush, Brandon. Come on, stand up to him. So 115, that's your bottom. 115 is my bottom. You have an expensive bottom, Brandon. So after everything that we've done today, What you're saying is, is I have to take your money and go buy somebody else's house. Can you see yourself doing better than that number?

I don't know, maybe a little bit. Well, help yourself out. I want to buy your house. And I know, I know you have a need to sell it. And I know you don't want it vacant. I know you don't want this issue happening. I know you want that cash. And I know you want to get this stress out of your life.

But, Brandon, isn't your neighbor's house? didn't it just sell for like 125? Why are you going to take $1.15 from this guy? Yeah, Michael, my neighbor's house just sold for $125. Why didn't you use your neighbor's realtor? I don't know. I don't want the realtor to get all my money. I agree.

I don't think you should either. So how much less than the $1.15 are you willing to help me out on? I guess I could go $110. You could go $110. Not saying I can, but if I hear you correctly, if I could give you $110,000, you'd sell me your house today. I would. Now are we talking an all-cash transaction or are we doing a seller finance transaction? What were you going to do with some of that money?

I was going to buy a new house. We're going to buy a new house. When were you going to do that? one of my credits, you know, not 200 and, you know, I get my child support back on track. So we probably have 12 months? Probably. Okay. So it would be worth it to you for me to pay you a little bit more than the 110?

Yeah. Perfect. Let's set that up. Make yourself a little bit more money doing that. And would you like those in payments or just pay it off? in a year from now? I don't know. Okay, let's just do it in a pay it off in a year.

It seems easier. If you need your money in the meantime, all you have to do is call me and we'll take care of that for you, all right? Sounds good. All we need to simply do now is sign the agreement. I'll go over it with you and then meet tomorrow with escrow and open up escrow.

That sounds good. Perfect. So it's a negotiation skill. I never gave him a price. Yep. Right. You made him say what the number was. Right.

Yeah. And so anytime you go, is that the least you'll do? Can you see yourself doing any better? Can you help me out a little bit more? I mean, after everything we've gone through, I'm going to have to give your money to somebody else. Help me out a little bit. Help yourself out. Because remember I said, help yourself out?

Yep. Because it's all about taking away. I'm going to take this whole dream of yours. I'm giving it. And then in the middle of it, I told you why you needed to because all those things you told me. I reminded you, you had to whatever the reason was. I brought that back. And I'm just negotiating with you, but you're really negotiating with yourself because I haven't yet to say a number.

It's like a Sven Jolly. Well, how does somebody get like that? I mean, how do I improve my negotiation skills? How do our listeners improve our negotiation skills? I mean, if it's not found in a book, which I do want to recommend, there is a book called pitch anything both Josh and I read it. Oh, fantastic. Fantastic book all about this exact kind of topic.

Really really good. Yeah. Pitch anything by Orrin Claff. Yeah, Oren Claff. Anyway, pitch anything with kind of a lot about this. Reminds me a lot of yeah, Michael, I think you'd like it because it's just like this stuff. But I mean, you're not likely going to get good at this in a book. I mean, I read the book and I'm not any better at it. Maybe a

little bit. Yeah, how do I improve my skills here? Well, the same way, I guess I did. You go and buy a house with a bad check and you realize that's not the right way to do it. And you get to a point, you know, one of the things for me I learned, and it was like this magical thing I learned, is that when someone that I'm negotiating with gives me something. So I'm talking to you and someone else in the room or yourself says, Mike, would you like a beer? Would you like a bottle of water? Would you like a soda? And I'd always say if it was a beer, no, soda kind of water, yes. But then I say, I said,

Then I started thinking about all the times that they gave me something, then every time they did, I got a contract signed. So I learned that the moment someone gave me something, I was done selling. My conversation was done. They were ready to go. And I could just completely go to contract and we were satisfied. And it's learning those little itty-bitty things is how you learn this stuff. This is trial and error. Some days you go, well, I can't say that because this guy's grumpy and blah, blah, blah.

Well, if you get to the point where you're with a grumpy person, if you haven't mimicked him and paste him enough, if you have him not as grumpy, then we haven't done our job when we can't go in the negotiation skill or skill set. If someone's just an arrogant, you know what, and they're just not going to communicate because they're Mr. Grumpy, I can't go and say, so that's the least you'll do? Because he'll say, get the effing out of my room kind of thing, for house. Yep. Right? But the moment I can pace you back to a conversation that I want to direct and you have listened to me and my voice in a manner that makes you go, okay, that was an important word. That wasn't an important word. And makes you start a green with me.

And I shake my head up and down. So you shake yours up and down. It works. As I watch, as you even say that, you've got Brandon shaking this. I did that on purpose. I wanted to see if I get you to shake your head, Josh. No, no, I can't be hypnotized. Yeah, yeah, whatever.

All right, so go ahead. So where they learn it, I think they learn it through practice. And I always tell people, you know, the best people to practice on are people that don't believe you can be successful. So, you know, you tell mom, you tell dad, I want to be a real estate investor. You tell your best friend or your boss or whoever. And everybody's going to tell you, you can't do that. You're not smart enough to do that. You've tried to do things before.

You've always failed, blah, blah, blah, blah. use that person as your guinea pig. Yep. Because the moment that we can turn our naysayers into positive people, turn them around, I can talk to a seller after that all day long. Yeah. If I go out and try to do this with my wife, who's never going to be critical with me unless she's mad at me,

then I can't learn what I can learn with a naysayer. So I actually need, and I always tell people this, go and roleplay with your friends, but don't tell them your role playing. your obstacle tonight is not to buy any beer so you're going to go to your friend using embedded commands pacing and neurolinguistics and they're going to buy you all the beer you drink tonight and after you're done you just tell them thank you for helping me learn my role-playing techniques that's funny and they'll call you a couple words but that's how you do it so all right so we talked about because it's as it's as simple as you brandy

you can't buy me another beer? I mean, after everything we've been through in life, you can't buy me a beer? I guess I could buy you one. Brandon, you bought him beers last time and the time before that, and the time before that, why do you keep buying him beers? I'm... Because I keep asking.

There you go. All right, so where does this take place? I mean, we talked about the phone and we talked about in person. And earlier, I want to go back. Well, let's get back to the phone. Can we get back to the phone? Yeah, please. What are we doing that call?

There's five important questions you have to ask a seller. That's right. That's why I wanted to hear. So no matter how good your marketing is, you're always going to get calls from people that don't want to sell a house. They pretend they do, but they don't. So here's the call. And either of you want to role play, that would be great or not.

So the first call, if the phone said, ring, ring, ring, and I said, hello, this was Michael. And someone has to say something. Like I have a house to sell. Yeah. I called about an ad. I called about a band that sign. I saw your wrap on your vehicle. I'm calling you about selling your house, right?

Yeah. The first question I have to ask you is, do you have a house to sell? Yep. You do? I do. Terrific. Is it currently listed with a real estate professional? No, it is not.

No, it is not. Outstanding. in today's marketplace, what do you think the home would sell for? I don't know. The house down the street sold for 125. You don't know in the house down the street sold for 125? Well, yeah. Well, can you do me a favor?

Sure. Can you spend some time this weekend or this next week and maybe do some research on how much your property is worth? You can do that. You can call real estate agent or drive by. and you'll probably see signs with flyer boxes. And then when you know or have a good idea what your home's worth, can you call me back so I'll buy it? Sure. I mean, I think it's probably, I mean, it's probably, it's not as nice as a one down the street.

So it's probably worth like a hundred or a son. Oh, so it's worth a hundred. Perfect. And, Brandon, knowing that I buy for cash and can close on the day of your choice, what's the least amount of money that you'll sell it for? I mean, I really like to get 100. I would like to get 100. You'd like to get 100, but can you see yourself doing less than that? We're back to this again. Well, but isn't these of the important things? Yes, yes. Because if we don't have a person that wants to sell a house, if we have a house that's listed with a real estate agent, there's nothing to buy. But third,

if they don't know what their house is worth, I can't slap them in the face. telling them what their house is worth. Yeah. So, so, so, I, because I don't know what they're thinking. Someone might think that their house is worth $500,000 in a $100,000 neighborhood. I'm not going to be the one that says that. They're going to go have to find someone else or something else that's going to give them that information.

Because when they have it from a third party, no, the third party is the evil one, not me. And if they still want to sell, then they know that the sales price that they have has to be reasonable in line with 100, not what they're. the 500 they were thinking. And my goal is always to go out to a house where the seller has said, I want what it's worth or less. So you could have said, no, I want 100,000. I would have gotten the address, asked you a couple more questions. I would have set you an alternate choice appointment. So I would ask, is 4 o'clock or 2 o'clock tomorrow better for me to come out and buy your house?

Yeah. I wouldn't allow you to, I wouldn't say things like, what time tomorrow or can I come by tomorrow because I'm giving you the power and I'm also not the person that you'll believe is going to actually buy your house or you're going to call someone else because if we don't solve the urgency issue for sellers they're getting another postcard from someone else they'll just pick that postcard up and dial that number but when they know that their house is sold to a professional that's willing to say I'm buying your house and I'm going to close it on the day of your choice and treat them reasonably and responsibly then they stop calling yeah and now we have an appointment to go buy a house. That's what we're there for. And so that's the phone call. And when you do it,

you have less appointments to go on. To make sense. I mean, one of the things I tend to do when I like get phone calls is I want to go look at every property. I mean, like, because I kind of get stuck on that like, well, what do I ask them next? I mean, they want to sell. Okay, well, where do I go from here? And so then I go and waste time looking at a property that was just a waste of time because nine out of ten homes are probably not going to be even worth looking at. Well, so you've pre-screened them, right? You've got these questions. You go through it.

You pre-screen them. And then you show up. And now you're kind of rehashing the entire conversation. But at that point now, say Brandon originally came at you and said, I wanted the 125. You kind of got him down to say 100 plus or minus. And you think you've got more room to bring him down when you show up at the door. Right. So you're not going to show up at the door if you think.

he's stuck at 115, 120, but since you knew that you can get him down to, say, 100 plus or minus, you know, maybe there's some room in there for you. There's some meat on the bone. So that's going to be the lead that you'll follow up with. You'll show up. And then you'll kind of do the, do this Fingali thing where you bring him down from 100 to, you know, 83. Well, they're bringing themselves down. Well, yeah. Because they're the ones that's doing it. Yep. I mean, they're absolutely agreeing with themselves that I'm lowering my price. Because I always tell sellers this, you know, I have never bought a house from a seller who's not agreed to sell me their house. That makes sense.

Well, yeah. Well, they have to, obviously, yeah. Right. So I've never bought one from a house from a seller who's disagreed with selling me their house. Right. Everyone that I've bought, and I've gotten probably close to a thousand of people who believe in what I do, who have gone through the program of getting out of what they needed to get out of, whatever situation that they were in, whether it's divorce or,

foreclosure or whatever. I've solved a lot of family problems, and I can solve them for you, too. Yeah. So you set a thousand that you buy. Is that how many property you think you've bought now in your career? Yeah, I know I'm well over 500, and I should count, but it'd be close to 1,000. Wow. That's crazy.

Well, but I'm old. I was right there with Jesus and, you know. Were you like really sad when all the dinosaurs died off? Yeah, I was. That was rough. Yeah. Social Security numbers one. Yeah.

All right. So. Well, let's talk about that. But yeah. Here's the idea. We're at probably about an hour. And really quick, this is show 77 of the Bigger Pockets podcast with Michael Quarles. By the way, just for those people listening, if you're a newbie real estate investor and you have, you've never checked this thing out, we've put together something called the ultimate beginner's guide in real estate to real.

Ultimate Beginners Guide for. in, I don't know, real estate invested, two, thank you, real estate investing. You could find it at BiggerPockets.com slash UBG. And it's got all sorts of really, really good starter tips and information for learning about investing. It's totally free. Definitely check that out. We just want to remind folks, because we always find people listening to the show saying, okay, cool, I'm motivated, I'm pumped, but I don't know what's the difference between flipping houses and lease options. So that guide really is helpful. That's why I mention it. But Michael, on your, so we've covered negotiation. We really wanted to cover marketing, but we're way longer

than we thought we'd be. So I think we're going to have to bring you back and talk about the marketing. So we're going to plan to do that. But since we have you, let's talk a little bit more about you, your experiences, you know, these 500 to 1,000 deals. What kind of, you know, the early period was a lot of this new construction stuff. Sounds like you've done a bunch of flips. Maybe you could tell us kind of what the ratio or what kind of deals you've done overall. Well, being in Bakersville, our median house price is pretty low. Right now, it's about 140 or so.

So. Not quite Detroit. Yeah, we're not as low. Yeah. Or not quite Los Angeles on the other spectrum. Yep. So we can buy. a lot of real estate pieces here for low value, which makes it easier than if someone's in San

Diego or New York or something where they're $750,000 cheap houses, I don't have that problem. So I buy a lot of low income. I always say that if you're going to market to somebody and try to attract someone that fits the mentality of the person who will sell at a discount, then you have to be at two-thirds a median value. So if my median's 140, then I have to be playing at that $100,000 range or lower. And so those houses are the ones I market to. And sellers call me, they go through my script. When I get out, no one ever tells you, by the way, that I'm going to prison. That's the motivation. Or I'm, you know, I'm being abused by my wife. That's the motivation. Or, you know, whatever.

You find it all out at the front door. And you've got to be real conscientious of, not displaying like that look of like, oh my gosh, you did what? When you see it. I mean, I remember the time that I bought the house from the nice, nice, nice lady. I always require sellers to show me the house, actually walk the house with me. But she couldn't. She was physically unable to get off the couch kind of thing. And the rule there is if you can't, you can't.

So I looked at this house. I was going through this house. and I got to the master bedroom and there was a deadbolt on the interior door of the master bedroom. And I found the rat. I found the reason something was going on here. So I finished up and I went back

and I sat on the couch with her. And I said, so tell me about the deadbolt on the door in the master bedroom. She goes, well, that's my son's room. It's your son's room. Really? She goes, yeah. And in fact, he doesn't know I'm selling the house.

He doesn't know you're selling the house. Ouch. So how can I help you? And she said, I'm tired of him beating me up and I need to sell my house. I do not want him to know. Whatever you do with him after I'm gone. I said, well, is he on the deed? And she said, no. I confirmed it. I bought the house. I took her pain away and dealt with the tenant after I owned it. Those are the kinds of people we deal with. We deal with, you know, the guy who, and this was a strange one. the guy who died and his family went to get all of the possessions out of the house, and he had his Bible room and his porn room, and they couldn't deal with it. You know, you buy the houses from all these people that can't sell it traditionally. So everybody always asks, well, why don't they just sell it? Why would anybody discount their property? Well, because they have to.

Realters wouldn't take their opportunity. Yeah. They don't want someone else in their house. I mean, I went and bought a house from, you know, when there's a house, you know, when there's cameras on the outside of the eaves in the front of the house, you kind of know something's going on inside the house. Well, so, and the, well, what do you, I mean, when you buy house, what are you doing with these? I guess I don't even, like, I don't, you're a flipper, right?

I mean, you do house flips, do you do, what are you doing with them when you, when you, after you buy them? Are you renting them? So I'm buying at eight, oh, no, I'm a lot of landlord. You have some disdaining your voice there. Well, landlording is. Well, I can imagine him as a landlord by the, the way. I mean, you would be, Michael, you probably should be a landlord because you would just,

you know, you would hypnotize your tenants. You will pay on the first. No, you will pay. I can't. You're saying you can't, but what I'm hearing is you're going to. Yeah. Well, it's a different reason why I can't be a landlord. But anyway, you got me off the question. What was the question? Yeah, what are you doing with these houses? Are you flipping or you? Well, I think the, I'm absolutely flipping, so I'm not wholesaling, and I'm not rehabbing. And in fact, on the bigger pockets, like little check marks of what you do, it's not there. I buy property as is at the as is value, at a percentage off as is value, and I sell it 100% of value. So my contract allows me, when I get a house under contract, to instantly start marketing it.

Even though I have equitable interest and I do anyway, they've actually gained. me that written permission and being a broker in California, I can pop that thing on the multiple listing service and get 100% on the dollar. And then every time that someone's living in the house, I put a for sale sign in the front yard, they could go read the flyer if they want. And they can, they know that they sold me in the house for 40 and I'm selling it for 80. They know that. They just need their 40. And we're doing, you know, offer subject to interior inspection so they're not bombarded with real estate agents. There's not a lockbox on the house so no one can get in kind of thing, but I'm marketing the property. So I'm buying it as is, selling it as is. And when you start

dealing with two thirds of median, you have two types of buyers. You have your investor buyer who wants to buy it, rehab it, gain equity by rehabbing it. And then you have your tenant buyer that wants to do the same thing. And it's a great market. So, you know, when you can play in that low income cost market, you can buy a lot more and sell a lot more. And you sell it. And you sell it. fast. You don't have any issues with seasoning because everything is a cash transaction and you'd be surprised how many people have $100,000 cash

when they don't look like they have $100,000 cash. So you're, I guess I'm a little confused. You're putting them under contract with the intent of actually buying them. So you're Oh, I always buy. I never pass. Okay, so you're not, you're not wholesaling

at all. You're, I mean, you're and in the end you're buying it. Okay. What? I just know that. I have on average in 93 days that I have to expire to sell a house. Okay. So I might as well start expiring those 93 days as soon as possible. So you're selling it.

Go ahead. So sometimes those 93 days, because it's an average, is a week after I'm closing my escrow or the next day after I'm closing my escrow. Wait, I'm confused. What do you mean? Well, I know I have 93 days that once I have a contract, it's going to take me 93 days on average to sell a house. Okay.

Sometimes that's a week and sometimes that's six months, but I'm always buying. Yep. So, and I'm not fixing up. So who are you buying, I mean, like you said, you're selling to probably investors. I mean, probably, I mean, he was saying, that's where I was confused. Because you said, yeah, I thought you said you sell at 100% of value. Investors probably aren't buying it 100% of value. So it sounds like that.

Not all investors are smart either. That's true, too. Yeah, and here's the paradigm. Here's what a normal investor looks like and what they do. They hear, over here, do something, tax strategies, buy a rental kind of thing. They go to a realtor magazine on their way in to get their beer or cigarettes or soda. Right. They pick up those realtor magazines.

They flip through it for the best looking person that they like. So that's why realtors use their picture from 10 years ago. So they call that realtor and that, realtor says, yes, we're, we're in a low inventory, but I can absolutely sell you a house. You'll probably have to make a 100% to 110% offer on the property. And in fact, we have one over there on South Street that's actually lower than what the other houses are going for. It needs a little work, and that's how they get sold. So my cost, because I'm buying it as is value, not ARV value, and most houses are sold at ARV value, not at as is value, right?

Yep. Yeah. If the as-is value is 100 and I'm buying it for 50 and an investor buys it at 100, rehabs and sells it for 175, I don't care. Yep. Now, is this what people call wholesaling? I mean, I hear that term. Could be. Yeah. That kind of what they're saying. Okay. So, I mean, it's a fascinating thing. Well, it's so much easier. Yeah. I mean, you're not at Home Depot every morning at 630 buying stuff that, you know, people need to put houses back together. Yeah. Now, would you say this is all predicated upon, I mean, living in an area that's a hot market, right? I mean, like, when I think of my market where the average time on market is 180 days or whatever right now,

and it's still like houses sell at 80% of whatever they're asking. I mean, like, that doesn't seem like it's going to work out in my area. Is that correct? Well, all I know is it worked in my area or it has worked in my area when we were in a bad market or in good market. Okay. Because there's motivated sellers in every market. So when you're in a bad market, you mitigate some of the costs of holding onto a property or some of the true resale value is, you still are at a percentage of that. So you mitigate all that with a lower value or lower cost.

So you will still buy at 50 cents on the dollar or 60 cents on the dollar and you'll still sell at 100 cents on the dollar. And maybe if you're on the market for your average market times 18 months, you have to mitigate that 80. months by a lower cost that you give the buyer. I mean, they give the seller. Yeah. Hey, Michael, so we got to kind of wrap up this segment before we do. I'm sorry. No, that's okay. I've got a quick question. It seems like there's a deal to be had pretty much in any market as long as you know how to find it. And I believe that's kind of your area of expertise and that's one of the, you know, that's one of your many areas of expertise, obviously. And as I had alluded to earlier, we definitely want to dig more into that since we're out of

time mostly. We're going to probably save that for another show. But really quickly, you said you bought only one property off the MLS. Is that correct? My very first one. Okay. So everything else you've gotten from some form of marketing. Why don't we do this? We'll plan to, you know, to bring Michael back at some point in the next couple months. Keep you guys waiting thirsty. I think marketing is probably more important than anything else you learn in business. Because once you learn marketing, you can own any business. Absolutely. Absolutely.

And we're definitely going to go there. I think this would be a four-hour show if we try to hit it all right now. Yeah. So what we'll do is we're going to transition to the fire round, get to the back of the show. And we'll look forward. For those of you guys who are like ooing and yelling, just make sure to yell at branding because, you know, he didn't schedule enough time. I don't know. But.

Yeah, let's go. Let's do the fire round. And then we'll take it out. Absolutely. That doesn't even sound good. Can I duck? No, it's not the firing squad. It's the fire round.

It's time for the fire round. The fire round. These questions all come from the Bigger Pockets Forum. So, Michael, you've probably seen a lot of these. We're just going to fire match you and see what you have to say, what your opinion is. Number one. Now, I heard you say you had yours, but real estate license, should an investor get one or not? We ask this question a lot, but I think it's important.

No. Really? Why is that? I know I don't need a... I know it's a fire. No. Because I think in the beginning of someone's career, it's just like they shouldn't get a website, they shouldn't get a license. What they should do is get a bunch of business cards and pass them out like when they do,

they get $1,000. So stop doing all the itty-bitty things getting ready to be successful. Just go start being successful. And then when you are successful and you start having reasons to have these things like an LLC, or a website or a license at that point, get those things. But don't set yourself up and spend all your marketing dollars on stuff that you don't need today. Yeah. Yeah.

It would be like me buying reserves amounts of gas. Like I'm going to go out and buy, you know, a million gallons of gas to use, you know, five years from now. Well, it doesn't make sense. Yeah. So let's just start. And so I don't think so. I mean, I mean, especially with the internet now, realtors are, there are, there are, there are more realtors than realtors have opportunity. So if you find the aggressive ones,

sometimes those are older realtors and established realtors, sometimes those are green realtors, but you find an aggressive realtor that will sit down. And even if neither one of you know anything about anything, putting two heads together with when they're like-minded, you'll have success and have them help you. But once you get to a point, then yes, get your real estate license. It's not the license as an agent that you want. It's the license as a a broker because until you're a broker and you can get a broker in most states with just a four-year college degree. If you don't have that, then you have to have a couple years' experience as a real estate agent. But that's when you can start controlling the contracts that you have.

Because as a broker, you still are obligated to what that broker says because everything that you do for that broker is really the brokers. Yep. Nice. All right. Well, next question. Would you ever purchase a condo or townhome, you know, something under an HOA, you know, in your dealings, your flips or your hoteling, whatever we're going to label, do you think it's a good idea? I wouldn't do condos, especially in some markets where the condos are highly tenant occupied because then some of the financing is real tough to get. And then the other thing, HOA's in a condo are so heavy and move so fast that they price themselves out. But I'm not a landlord anyway. And I like single family structures. I just love them. And even though in our area,

we have a lot of association fees that are attached to single-fabbley structures. They're not as expensive as a condo association fee. Okay. So I wouldn't. All right. Cool. All right. Next question.

Do you have any tips on finding a fantastic title company? Yeah. I think the easiest way to do that is to call up five of the most popular real estate agents. And whether you know, whether you know that that's a truth or not. So if you, if I find five people that you think are the most popular, or the best ones in your area. Call those people up and ask who they use. Call the sales manager up at those title companies.

And ask that title sales manager to refer you to a sales rep. Ask that sales rep to refer you to customer service and also get an interview with you with an escrow officer. And as you start building that team, and say you have five different ones, when you start interviewing all those people and see how customer serves, service work, see how escrow officers work, see how the title manager is working. When you do all that, you'll find that person. You'll find that company. But it all starts with someone else using them. And the reason I always say go five big guys or big gals from a production perspective is we want to, and sometimes, because we don't have the experience, we want to use the credibility that

someone else has to be able to walk through the door. So if I call it escrow manager or title manager and I say, Bill Jones, this powerhouse top-notch real estate agent referred me to you to talk to you about my career in real estate. That that manager is now going to give you some credibility and some time of day because he doesn't know what your relationship is with this other agent that he wants the business from. And once you have that, then you can start interviewing and finding the person. Nice. Cool. That's great. That's great.

All right. What about finding an investor-friendly real estate? agent. You know, as I'm sure you well know, most, I'd say most agents by far know nothing about investing. So how do you find the good ones? Well, I wouldn't because I'm going to back it up there. I would find an agent to, if, since I, if I weren't one, an agent or broker to list my property, but I don't need them to buy property because I don't buy that way. And here's the reason I don't buy off of the MLS. And I could because I pay the frigging $1,800 a year dues. But here's a listing agent. They go out to take a listing to a seller and they say the seller, it's worth a hundred cents

on the dollar. Of that hundred cents, I want you to give me six cents. The seller says, great. Let's do it. I come along as a real estate investor and say, yeah, but I can't give him a hundred cents. I can only give him 70 cents. But can you make me that offer? Well, I can't making that offer because I just convinced him to hire me by telling him it's worth a hundred cents. Well, but I want you to make that offer. Well, how can I make? Because I can't lose my credibility. Now, if I'm another agent that's just making an offer and presenting it to that agent, that agent will talk, we'll ask this question of a seller. Do you want me to show you offers which are less than listed price? If he asks or she asked that question, that agent doesn't have to show anybody. those lower offers.

And so for that reason alone, I can't see the MLS being viable. The other thing I don't see the MLS being viable is, from a purchase perspective, unless you're a passive income earner, then I totally get it, is the $6% of $100,000, that $6,000 in commission, I equated to advertising. And I can do more with the $6,000 in advertising and finding more opportunity than I can buying that one opportunity. And so it's really what's the highest and best use of my dollar?

Because ultimately, even though sellers authorize the payment of commission, it's coming out of the buyer's funds. So truly the buyers, they're paying for that, the realtor. Because the price of the property is then higher to compensate for that and all that. Right. Cool. Because that's the conversation I'd have of the sellers that because you don't have an agent,

it's lower kind of thing. And I can justify that because I always tell them, you know, one of the things appraisers do is they appraised value based upon a real estate agent being involved. It's much like they would increase your value if you had a swimming pool. Well, they're increasing the value because you had an agent. Because you don't have an agent, when you don't have a swimming pool, we have to decrease the value. And it makes sense when you start telling people things like that. Yeah. I mean, that's a good point to bring up to people.

So cool. Yeah. Interesting. Well, why don't we head to the last segment of the show, which we call the Famous for. All right. These questions, we ask every single guest. And so we're going to throw them at you here.

The first one we kind of covered earlier a little bit, so I think I know your answer. But do you have a favorite real estate book? The Bible. Okay. Not quite real. It's kind of taught me everything I need to know. Yeah. Other than that, and one of the reasons I didn't read anybody's book is because I didn't know

anybody wrote a book about it. No one told me. I didn't have any friends out there that were real estate investors. And then the more I got into writing my own books, I surely didn't want to read any then because I didn't want to take someone else's idea and write about it. That would be kind of wrong. So, no, I would say the Bible.

Okay. Would you say the same as business book? That's Michael. No, Michael. Okay. Go ahead, Josh. Ask it. Ask it.

No, you stole my thunder. I didn't hear it. I didn't hear what he said. All right, good. I'm glad we got an old guy as our guest, so I can ask the question again. No, I'm just kidding, Michael. What about business book? Do you have a favorite business book? I do. Michael Gerber's E-Mith. And whether it's the first one or the professional or which contractor or whatever. That's not my dog in the background. That's not my dog. It's my fierce chihuahua. I never saw you as a chihuahua kind of guy, Michael. Well, her name is precious, by the way.

And she licks the peanut butter off his face. Yep. That's not where I put the peanut butter. Oh, Jesus. All right. Next question. Next question. What do you do for fun?

Wait, let's skip that one. We just covered that. Next. Yeah, what are your hobbies, Michael? What are your hobbies? When I was younger, I enjoy. boxing and MMA. So I was one of those stupid people who would go get beat up. And I always found

that fun. It was like my personal chest match, match, but with like harm. Like it's, it's, oh, they took my pawn. Well, no, they knocked me out. You know, whenever, whenever, whenever people in the podcast say that they do like fighting of some kind, I always challenge them to a fight at the next bigger pocket summit. I'm not challenging you. I'm not taking Michael on. Well, I would just ask you, are you sure you want to? Is that the best you can do? Is that the best offer you've got for me? Is that the best punch you've got?

Yeah, so we're not fighting. All right. Final question from me, what do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from those who give up, fail, or never get started? Drive. I think, I mean, just because we want to do something doesn't inherently mean we want to do it. It just means that we've said we wanted to do it. So it's the people that go, okay, I want to do it.

So how am I going to now start orchestrating it? Well, I'm going to write it down. I'm going to start visualizing it. I'm going to start with some affirmations about why this is important in my life. I'm going to tell people that are important. I'm going to ask people to hold me accountable. They're going to take steps that say, I'm going to be successful because I want to be successful over the person that says, I want to be a real estate investor.

I'm going to be. Yep. And, you know, one of the weirdest things when I was on stage and one of the things I used to ask people in the audience is anybody here who has a business card on them that says, I buy houses or we buy houses or something about buying houses, stand up. And only a third of the room would stand up. Well, that told me instantly two thirds of the room were not real estate investors because they didn't believe in it enough to say they were by buying a $12 item so they could carry it around and have an opportunity. to buy a house. The other thing is when I ask someone, what do you do? Well, someone can ask me, what do I do I'm a broker? I have a contractor's license. I've written books on the subject. I can do all. I have a print company, a little one. But I tell them I'm a real estate investor.

So until you start living it, I'm not an engineer. I'm not a doctor. I'm not an attorney. I'm not a school teacher. I'm not unemployed. I'm not a salesperson. I'm a real estate investor. Until they start saying that, they will not succeed. You have to believe it. to be successful in it. That's really great. That's really great. Yeah, we haven't had anyone actually say that before and it makes a whole heck of a lot of sense. So that's great. That's great. Well, Michael, it's been a lot of fun. I'm going to have nightmares and weird visions. But we really, really do appreciate you taking the time. Where can people find you, find out more information about you? Anybody that's listened to this and want to chat and want to learn anything

that I've talked about, free of charge, get me on the phone, then call my office over at yellowletters.com with an S, ask Norma to get a hold of me. I'm rarely there anymore, but if someone needs help understanding how to negotiate or if they have a seller that's on the fence but they don't know what to say or they have a sub two deal that they don't know how to put together, I just get a kick out of helping people succeed. And yeah, call me up. I've had people even go, I have the seller with me. Can I hand the phone to me? And I've done deals for people over the phone. That's funny.

There you go. I'm going to throw out there also. Michael's always answering questions in the forums about this kind of stuff. So, yeah, I mean, Michael's very, very helpful in answering this stuff. So, yeah, definitely get in touch a few. Yeah. Sometimes too direct. No, we've never had that happen before.

All right. Well, listen, this is show 77 of the Bigger Pockets podcast. Check out the show notes at biggerpockets.com. show 77 and you can ask Michael any questions you have there. As Brandon said, he's always, you know, pretty much always on the forum. So feel free to jump in and ask questions there. And, of course, hit him up at his website or give a call. I'm not sure your Norma, was it, is going to love the influx of calls that you're going to get from this show. But there you go. Well, Michael, thanks a lot. And we really do appreciate having you on. And we will certainly schedule

another show to finish up the stuff that we want to get to next time. It was fun. Thank you guys. Thanks so much. Thank you. Okay. Talk to you soon. All right, guys, that was Michael Quarles. I hope you guys enjoyed the show as much as I did. Show 77 on the Bigger Pockets podcast. The show notes are at biggerpockets.com slash show 77. As we'd mentioned a couple times, we're definitely going to do a follow-up with Michael and get into the marketing side of things. But hopefully you enjoyed that. I know, Brandon, and you enjoyed getting your backside beat?

I did. I mean, I'm admittedly not very good at negotiation. And so I learned a ton, and I think most people at listen probably, at least picked up a couple of things they can use in their life. He worked you, dude. He did. He did.

Now I've got to try these strategies on people in my own life. Yeah, for sure. For sure. All right, guys, I don't know about you, but I thoroughly enjoyed the backside whipping that Brandon endured on that show. What do you think? I don't know if I'd say whooping, but you know, I learned a thing or two. He literally straight dominated you. Yeah, he's a good negotiator. He is. He is indeed. Well, that was a lot of

fun. And so big, big, big thanks to Michael, Michael Quarles for joining us again on the show. And as I mentioned earlier guys, since Michael is well known for his expertise in the field of marketing, we will certainly be having him back on the show down the line. So stay tuned for that. But that's it. So show 77 of the Bigger Pockets podcast. If you have questions for Michael regarding any of the content of the show, definitely go to the show notes of biggerpockets.com slash show 77. If you like the show, if you like what we're doing, if you like the content that we're bringing to you, please jump on iTunes. share it, review it, let people know what you think about it, and tell your friends.

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Wow. Yes, exciting. All right. If anyone's still listening, I'm going to let Brandon take it out because I feel bad for him. Thanks. Yeah, I've been sitting here falling asleep while you're rambling. All right. This is show 77 of the Bigger Pockets podcast. I am your co-host, Brandon Turner, signing off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the height, you're in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com.

Your home for Real Estate Investing Online. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K. Copywriting is by Calico content. And editing is by Exodus Media.

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