BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 87: How to Thrive After The Collapse of a Real Estate Empire with Nathan Brooks

Episode Date: September 11, 2014

Failure is no stranger in the real estate industry which is why we are excited to bring Nathan Brooks to The BiggerPockets Podcast today, an investor who knows firsthand that real estate can be tough! Nathan is an investor (both flips and rentals) from Kansas who went through a very difficult period during the real estate crash, losing all his properties and filing bankruptcy due to a shady partner and jumping in too quickly. Nathan has since emerged as a much stronger real estate investor and carries an incredible story with numerous lessons to share. Get ready to learn how failure can transform your life! In This Show We Cover: How Nathan found his first business partner at lunch Why Nathan bought two houses as a newbie – and lived to regret it How to find partners through BiggerPockets The opposite of paralysis by analysis How Nathan ended up filing bankruptcy  Nathan’s current (more conservative) investing strategy Dealing with tenants in a $20k property How to make a unit stand out among the competition Dealing with “Cat Ladies” and “Hoarder Houses“ How Nathan finds deals Finding mentors and lenders on Craigslist? How to find a real estate-minded attorney  And so much more! Books Mentioned in the Show The Millionaire Real Estate Investor by Gary Keller The Unofficial Guide to Real Estate Investing by Spencer Strauss and Martin Stone The Four Hour Workweek by Timothy Ferriss Unlimited Power : The New Science Of Personal Achievement by Anthony Robbins Tweetable Topics Don’t go into business with someone you don’t know. It’s just stupid. (Tweet This!) The lessons I’ve learned have made me a better investor today. (Tweet This!) There’s a deal for everyone, but this deal might not be for you. (Tweet This!) The job of a Real Estate Investor is to solve problems. (Tweet This!) Know the answers before asking the questions. (Tweet This!) Connect with Nathan Nathan’s BiggerPockets Profile Nathan’s Company Website Nathan’s BiggerPockets Blog Posts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast. Show 87. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorkin. host to the Bigger Pockets podcast here with the traveling man, the guy who hasn't been around

for weeks and weeks, the guy trekking across America. Mr. Brandon Turner, what's up, dude? It is good to be home. I'm finally back in my office for at least a couple days. Yeah, yeah, it's good to have you home, man. It's tough when you're not around. Thanks. Yeah, had a good time. I went to the Minnesota State Fair in a family reunion, played at a wedding. Got to see a cop chasing a cow down the road. in Montana. That was exciting. Nice. Yeah, it's been a good, good time. And I'm back home. So, deep fried butter. I did not get any deep fried butter this time. But you got a bucket of cookies. I did get a bucket of cookies, sweet Martha's cookies. If you, if you're a Minnesota person,

you know exactly what I'm talking about when I say like I would kill someone for them. I never got a bucket in my mailbox. I was waiting. Here's the thing with Sweet Martha cookies. They're not as good about 15 minutes after you buy them. You have to eat the whole bucket when they're hot and warm and amazing. Nice. Yeah. Nice. Yeah, everyone's now really jealous. Be jealous people. It sounds good. It sounds. All right. All right. All right. Well, today, I'm glad you're

back. It's awesome. I'm ecstatic. Also, we kind of have a cool announcement. We've got a new team member here on Bigger Pockets. I think I might have announced her last week, but I'll say it again. We've got Allison Leung. And she is our community manager now. And she's our lead editor on the blog. She's awesome. So shout out to Allison for being a rock star and taking over lots of the duties that Brandon and myself and our good friend Jaron have been helping with. So thanks again to Allison. That said, we got a really, really good show today. We really, really do. Today we're going to hear an incredible story of a real estate investor who jumped in quickly, got really excited about real estate, ended up losing everything in the crash. He lost it all. And he lost it all.

all. It was tragic. The story is phenomenal and there's a lot of lessons to be learned. So definitely pay attention. The show is truly one of the more honest looks at what can go wrong with real estate. And it's fantastic. So definitely pay attention. There's a ton of great tips. So please, please stick around. All right, cool, cool, cool. Well, anyway, listen. And that kind of leads to today's quick tip. All right, today's quick tip. If you are interested in getting your brand's message in front of tens of thousands of real estate enthusiasts, you can advertise directly here on the Bigger Pockets podcast.

If you're interested in that, send an email to advertise at biggerpockets.com or fill out our form at biggerpockets.com slash advertise. All right, that's it. Let's get to this thing. It's bringing our guest, Nathan Brooks. he's a full-time real estate investor from Rowland Park, Kansas. I couldn't find it on a map, but yeah, yeah, it's somewhere, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, he does a mix of both picks and flips and Reynolds while still working a full-time job.

And like I said earlier, his story is really, really incredible and inspiring. So with that, and he's funny, by the way. And did you know my song that was, I was humming? That was the witch. Yeah, I'm good. I know. Making sure you get pop culture, come on. I made a reference later on the show. We all joke that rentals are passive,

but if you're spending nights matching receipts or guessing what a property earned last month, that's not passive at all. Baselaine fixes that part of landlording, the financial chaos. Their banking and AI bookkeeping system automatically tags every transaction, updates cash flow insights in real time,

and builds the reports you need for tax season. You can even automate transfers and move money around without paying wire fees. It's just cleaner. Sign up at baselane.com slash BP. and get a $100 bonus. Base lane is a financial technology company and not a bank. Banking services provided by Threadbank, member FDIC. Most investors spend more time chasing deals than reviewing their insurance.

But a quick coverage check can be fast, easy, and one of these smartest ways to protect and even improve your property's cash flow. As the months get colder, frozen pipes, icy walkways, and seasonal wear and tear can increase the likelihood of claims. And traditional insurance companies aren't always built to handle these claims quickly or smoothly. That's why more real estate investors are turning to steadily. They focus exclusively on landlords, whether it's a single-family rental, a burr-builders risk policy, or midterm holiday guests. You get fast quotes, flexible coverage, and protection for property damage, liability, and even loss of rental income.

Now is the perfect time to review your rates and coverage. Get a quote in minutes at biggerpockets.com slash landlord insurance. Steadily, landlord insurance designed for the modern investor. Real estate investors, the April 5th,000. tax deadline is coming fast. If you own rental property and haven't visited Costsegregation.com yet,

you could be handing thousands of dollars to the IRS that you don't have to. Costsegregation.com is self-guided software that helps you write off up to 25% of your building to generate huge tax deductions. With pricing under 500 bucks and average tax savings of $25,000,

cost segregation.com is fast and affordable, making it perfect for single-family rental properties, condos, townhomes, and even ADUs. What's more? Audit Defense is included in the price and backed by KBKG, the number one cost segregation company in the U.S. Costsegregation.com was launched over 10 years ago and has a 100% success rate under IRS audit. You heard that right.

A 100% success rate, and that's over 10,000 studies. Go to costsegregation.com and use code tax deadline to get 10% off your first report. Don't overpay the IRS. Head to Costsegregation.com before April 15th. Anyway, his story's incredible and why don't we bring him in? So Nathan, welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you here. Hey, thanks so much, guys.

It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, we're glad to have you. You've been writing on the blog lately, and I really, really, I just want to tell you this publicly. I love reading your articles every week. It's just like one of my favorite writers, and I get a kick out of every week. So thank you guys.

Why don't you guys get a room? I'm just saying people should check it out. No, his articles are really good. Well, thank you very much. That means a lot and I enjoy writing them. Oh, cool. Well, cool. Well, let's start at the beginning.

How did you get into real estate? Thank you. Yeah. You know, I've listened to a lot of these podcasts and read a lot of blogs. and I think my story runs along the same lines as, you know, I really was an unintentional investor at the beginning. I wanted to be in real estate, but I didn't necessarily have any idea what I was doing. And I literally met a guy sitting in a restaurant who was talking about real estate at a

different table who had nothing to do with me. I walked over, introduced myself, and boom, a few weeks later, I have a business partner. So you were having lunch with your friend, spouse, whatever, and you start listening to the conversation of the people next to you. That's kind of nosy, man. There are a few ways you could look at that, but yes. All right. So you're listening to this guy. He's talking about real estate.

Like, I mean, it's pretty bold. I mean, you know, we all listen to conversations around us. But like to get up and be like, hey, man, wow, that's fascinating. How did that go? I'm just curious because if I did it, I'd probably get punched in the face. Real quick, speaking of that about listening to people, every time I've ever eaten lunch or dinner with Josh Dorkin here, I mean, every meal we've ever eaten together when we're at a conference or whatever, Josh, like, strikes up like this super good friendship with the people sitting next to us. Like the last time we went up to this, like Italian restaurant, these ladies invited us. Or wasn't Italian? Yeah, they wanted us. It was Italian.

But yeah. It's the emphasis that matters. Okay, whatever. So like the lady invited us like, come. stay at her house up in Canada. I don't know. Everywhere we go, Josh, buds in the conversation. And the other Italian restaurant the day before was. Yeah.

Same. Anyway, okay, back to you. So I don't remember Josh's question. Here's the thing. I can get the life story out of anybody in 10 minutes regardless. So, you know, the approaching part was not the scary part. It was what came after that, which was, hey, this is great. Hey, we became best buds.

Hey, we had a bunch of meetings. And, hey, the first day I bought a house I bought two with no money. on an assumable loan through a local bank. And boom, I was a real estate investor. So you walked in and picked up two properties, bang, with no idea what the heck you were doing because you were listening to a guy sitting and eating a sandwich next to you. And now you're like, what on earth do I do?

Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah, that's scary, isn't it? It was not necessarily looking back my best move. Yeah. Let me ask you real quick about. the guy you met. Was he like, I don't know, I don't want to say like old, but he was an older, he was an

older investor, I'm assuming, right? Like not like your age or what? Not really, man. He was like a couple years older. You know, he's that, that strong, fit, athletic, you know, boisterous, brilliant. You know, I was fired up. I'm like, man, this guy is going to be the meal ticket, you know. And this guy knows what he's doing and he's going to be a great partner.

and I'm going to learn this business along with him. However, that is not how the story unfolded. All right. So you got these two properties. Your partner with him. Now, how was that partnership set up? How did you guys do that? So it's 50-50.

I bought the properties and financed them. And he was the construction guy and was going to run the cruise, get the rehabs done, and so forth. So were these flips or buying holds? They were flips. Okay, so you, wait, okay, you started with two flip projects at once, never having done anything before. Oh, yeah, almost 400K worth. Oh, yeah, that's a really bad idea.

Oh, okay. All right, so you're knee-deep in these two projects. You're freaking out, ripping your hair out, going crazy. Like, let's walk us through what that experience was like and why anybody listening who has never done a deal should never do what you did. Well, because as you go a few weeks into this process and this so-called business partner begins not showing up, begins not doing the work, begins not answering his telephone, then shows up on Friday with his handout for, you know, a lot of cash.

Oh. Yeah. So that's not how you do it, folks. Okay? That's just stupid. Yeah. So not only did I get myself into two properties, not only did I really not have any money in the first place, nor did I have no idea what I was doing, then I simply, you know, was

stuck in a position where I had no idea how to get out. Okay. So you're partnered with a guy who. flamed out who basically wasn't there for you who is a flake i guess it sounds like um let's let's just get into that you know we don't have to talk about who he is or anything else but for folks listening how could you have avoided that situation well there's a few things first of all don't go into business with somebody you don't know uh it's stupid you know second is once i realized the problem was happening rather than actually getting out of the situation

and either selling the houses or, you know, just really solving the problem, I kept feeding the problem, which was paying him, trying to make it work, trying to keep the deals together. You know, because at the end of the day, I thought that we had two great properties and two great deals that I could start with that would help launch my real estate career. Gotcha, gotcha. And at some point, it's kind of, it may become unavoidable for an investor to not work with somebody that they don't know. Ultimately, you know, you're probably not going to be doing deals with your best friends,

so you're more likely than not working with folks that you've got some kind of borderline relationship with. What are the key things that you would want to know about somebody to ensure that, you know, are you going to do a background check? Are you going to screen them in any particular way to see that, you know, they're not going to kind of screw you over like that? Well, sure. Well, I guess more so not necessarily not knowing them, but having a relationship built around maybe other people that you know or a personal relationship connection, like through Bigger Pockets, for instance, and that you can vet somebody through other people that have worked with them or that you know that they've done deals. Yeah.

You know, that's good. And really quickly, just because somebody's on Bigger Pockets doesn't mean that they're vetted. And I want to point that out to everybody. You know, I'm the person who should be like, yeah, Bigger Pockets is the greatest place ever. And it is, but we don't vet people. You know, people, there are plenty of people on the site that, you know, we're not an investigative body. We can't go out and look at everybody who joins the site. So you have to do your due diligence on BP.

Bigger Pockets is just a, you know, a miniaturization of the world, so to speak. And, you know, I can't press upon folks enough that that's really important just because they're on BP doesn't mean, or they're active on BP doesn't mean that somebody's, you know, trustworthy. So just keep that in mind. You know, it's just kind of protect yourself. And we did talk about that also with like, Maran Kamari and Don Anastasi, which we had both on the podcast now. They found each other through bigger pockets.

And I asked both of them that question is like, how did you find a good partner? And both of them kind of had the same answer, right? It was they were, they looked for people who were active in the community, people who were engaged, people who were knowledgeable, people who were, you know,

obviously like showing effort that they knew what they were doing. And that is the great thing. The more you hang around people, the more you see how they interact with others, the more you can kind of gauge them and decide if you want to work with them. And that's BP or in the real world, no matter what, you know, maybe it's not a good idea to jump in. First day, you know, this guy seems to like real estate, clearly we're going to be a good partner. Would you agree, Nathan? Nobody's laughing at you, Nathan. Right. No, no. And believe me, I've learned my own lesson. And it didn't, it actually got worse after that. But the point with that was,

that we could have done a better job. And in the end of the day, you can find a great partner that maybe you don't know, but you start smaller. Don't go buy two houses. Don't go get too huge projects to do. So start somewhere smaller where you can vet them. How did this play out? So you said it got worse.

I mean, let's let's hear it, man. Testify. Well, not only did we buy those two houses, but then within the next, uh, you know, the next, uh, you know, 18 months or so, we bought half a dozen more houses and we own multiple rentals. This is with the guy, the same guy. No, actually, I have, of course, found another investor on Craigslist who had multiple properties for sale. I could always negotiate a deal. It was never a problem. I can negotiate any deal with anything. I can always, you know, get the deal that I want to work the way that I

wanted to. But in this case, because the deals aren't good, and I didn't have the background to say, hey, I need to make sure I understand what the deals are. So I got into them without really having an understanding of what I'd gotten myself into. So now we own nearly a million dollars worth of real estate. And I have this partner failing. I have these properties that are mostly Section 8 tenant occupied. And literally one of them that I purchased, I walked up to the house the first day I'd owned it and the tenant boom moving out. So another one had, you know, mold issues and one had foundation issues and there was a whole host of things that I just royally messed up. How soon did these other properties follow the first two? And did they follow after you had

closed on the first two or were you still rehabbing them when you bought the third and the fourth? We were still rehabbing the first two properties. And they all came kind of in a succession, three or four months later and then another, you know, a month or two later. Okay. So, you know, there's this concept. It's paralysis by analysis, right? You know, I'm sure everybody listening has heard us talk about it. And paralysis by analysis is, you know, you don't make a move because you're just frozen

by evaluating and deal, you know, and trying to figure out what to do. And I'm going to call you out here, Nathan, you're on the show, you know, what you're in for. Nathan here has done the complete opposite of paralysis by analysis. Nathan here, I tried to come up with something clever, but I can't really coin anything. But he's literally so excited about real estate that he's just buying stuff and not really prepared for what he's buying. And no idea. And I was guilty of that early on as well. And it's equally as dangerous as anything else that you can do.

in this industry. And in fact, I think it might potentially be the worst thing that you could possibly do in the industry is get so excited and just say, you know, I'll figure it out. Let me, let me jump in. Let me just keep buying, buying. You know, there was something to say to figuring things out as you go along. But, yeah, I want to press upon folks to be careful and not have 10 projects going at once or two projects going at once until you start to figure out how to do one. And I'm not trying to use you as an example, but I am because, you know, it just works. So, all right, so you're in this horrible situation. You've got all these things happening. How did it play out? I mean, clearly it's going to blow up in your face, right? It blows up. Everything goes to hell in a hand basket. And I literally, one by one, the banker on the two first properties starts calling a note due. I try to have a deed in lieu of foreclosure on one, which he agrees to. And then subsequently, since,

a lawsuit filing to my house a week or two later begins collecting rent illegally from the tenants who I then at that point placed in the house because I had no contractor. I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't really even have a lease in place with those people who were living there just trying to pay for covering the monthly mortgage amounts on those houses. The other two, you know, multiple properties. One, we ended up losing in foreclosure. We had a short sale on another house. house and eventually we literally filed chapter 7 and lost literally every single thing, every piece of property, you know, and we'd spent every dime of cash that we had trying to save them. Wow.

Wow. Wow. When was this? This sounds like the crash. I mean, was this when everyone else was- This was- This was- So 2007-2008, somewhere in there, nine. Yeah, 2009 is when we filed.

Wow. So you went from, you know, nothing to this big portfolio and, you know, from the outside, everything looks good. But, you know, the systems weren't there. The education wasn't there. And, you know, the empire was kind of crumbling under your feet. So it all fell apart, Chapter 7. And now, where are you? I mean, mentally, are you like, hey, I split.

still love real estate or are you just like get me the heck away from anything to do with real estate well there was a period of mourning for sure you know I built the empire I told my wife you know we were going to have this awesome business and you know I failed but at the end of the day for me we had we had a decision to make which was do we learn from the mistakes that we just put ourselves through and do we jump back in and go after it and learn from the mistakes we made, or do we, you know, go through all that pain and suffering and then do nothing with the education that we just received?

Yeah. And so for us, we jump back in. Much more that I was excited about my wife, believe me. Yeah, got you. So we jumped in to real estate 18 months later with 50% cash down and a private money guy who, you know, was expensive, of course, and I had asked 27 times before I got a yes for private money to buy our first property after post-bankruptcy.

Wow. Wow. Yeah, that's serious. That's serious. I just want to cycle back on one item left, but, you know, the pre-crash, should of speak. And, you know, clearly this guy was not a great partner to have the first. partner. What was the final straw? What put you over the edge? Because he put up with a lot of

nonsense for a long time. When did he kind of finally get to you? You couldn't even write this story, man. It's one of those where literally had taken, I can't even believe I did all of these things, but I had a business credit card. He had literally taken the business credit card, which, of course, I'd put him on and out-of-town trip with some person and literally spent additional money, not only the money, tens of thousands of dollars, really,

that I had paid him over the course of probably two months trying to get him in and out of getting this construction stuff done. And so not only lost tens of thousands of dollars, not only he'd put money on this credit card, but then there started being a feeling of like my life could actually be in danger or this guy really, you know, I don't know if he's schizophrenic or I don't know if he's bipolar or I don't know if, you know, what is it about this person that my life is actually, you know, it could be in danger at this point and I should I should really extricate myself from it.

Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, I'm sorry you had to go through that. That sounds horrible, and I don't wish that upon you or anyone else who's listening or anyone else, period. I mean, that sounds awful. And clearly you walked away with a few lessons. It was. And it was horrible.

And I think the point of this and the reason why I'm willing to talk about it, and I want people to hear the story, is that there's two things. One, it's okay to go slower. And I know we hear a lot of these amazing stories about people who, have built these incredible businesses. And I believe me, I want to do that. And I think you guys sharing that feeling. And we have to understand how to make it sustainable

and how to grow with that business. And two, that it's okay to fail and it's okay to understand where we come from and we can look back on it as long as we're learning from it and we're making a conscious choice to not make those same mistakes. Yeah.

Well, let's just say hypothetically you could go back in time. and do it all over again. Knowing what you know now, what would you do differently like this time around? And people who are listening to this podcast who are just getting started and they're super excited and they're in your shoes five years ago, what would you do? Well, Michael Quarles had a line in one of the podcasts of, you know, he didn't know what he didn't know.

And I didn't know. So, you know, looking at those two properties, would I still bought them? Maybe. Maybe I would have. but I would have certainly brought in a business partner that I understood the person, as well as understood their abilities within the deal. And so in that hypothetical situation, there was money to be made. And that properties, looking back, were great properties.

And if it would have been done right and it would have run smoothly and the guy wouldn't have been a crook, we would have made money and we probably would be telling a very different story today. but it's not what happened. I look back on some of my early properties that I have, you know, that are, you know, some of the first few that, I mean, I have a property that I worked on for a solid year myself, my wife and I every day fixing this thing up. I've told this story before and then it sat on the market for a year and we ended up selling it and breaking even. So I lost two years of my life essentially, right? And a couple other ones that were just bad rental properties that I lose money on every month. But like, I don't know if I were to go back.

I don't think I would change a thing about that because like the lessons I learned will make. me a better and have made me a better investor today and have helped me to, you know, be able to share my story to help other people just like you're doing today. So I kind of, you know, can resonate with that, that, you know, it sucks and I wouldn't want to go through it again. But, you know, there is something to say about the lessons you learn from failure. So. Absolutely. And also even just on the rental properties that we purchased and the ones that I purchased now are just so much different, they're structured differently. I have much less leverage and I have much more cash flow. And so to be able to understand what I need to have in reserves and those kind of things versus what I'm

bringing in on a consistent basis from rent and really understanding what that looks like and what your business model actually is. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I mean, we're going to, we're going to call you the comeback kid, Nathan, because, you know, right? I mean, you had this, this tragic beginning. And presumably, I mean, we haven't heard this story, but presumably things turned around. and so I want to talk about, you know, picking up the pieces after, after, you know, this really tough failure and, you know, loss where, you know, everything went wrong. So, you know, you're at this low point and now let's start bringing in it back up, bring it back up. So first thing that happens, you know, everything went sour. You talk to your wife.

You're kind of, you're back in that position where you can get that first deal. what did that look like? Well, at the time, it was a rental, it was a little rental property. In our market here in Kansas City, there's a few different places you can buy that kind of 2% rule kind of property. Everybody likes to talk about on the, you know, so where we could make a good cash flow, and we could also get into that property because it wasn't that expensive. And so the first property we purchased is $21,000. It was $21,000.

There's a three-bed, one bath. 1,300 square feet house, and it rents for $800 a month. Wow. So put a couple grand into it. I'd literally put 50% down, so roughly $10,000. And, you know, immediately had a renter within just a few weeks. And I still own that property today. And that house is worth $70,000.

And we just refinanced it actually and pulled a bunch of cash out to buy another property in that same neighborhood. Nice. So let's talk about that property a little bit. I mean, what kind of property can you buy for $20,000? You know what I mean? Like that seems just, even in my area, that's crazy low, right? Like, what kind of tenants do you get? What kind of neighborhood is it? He's in Kansas, Brandon. Well, mind you, Kansas is, you know, it's kind of like a Minneapolis or anything else, you know, one of those kind of cities that has a lot of outlying areas. So yes, I do appreciate the Kansas joke there. But that wasn't a joke. I've driven through Kansas, man. That is one of the toughest, toughest states in this country to drive across. I mean, talk about wanting to bash your head into a window.

You don't like corn? I thought Ohio was worse. You know what? Ohio, Illinois's bad. Ohio's bad. It's just flat with straight and nothing. And you're like, oh, my God, get me out of here. Get me out of here.

Get me out of here. Or maybe that's just me. That's when you listen to the Bigger Pockets podcast, Josh. Well, you know, if you read one of my blog posts that, you know, my wife and I listened to, you know, a couple dozen while we had, you know, two screaming small children in the car driving from to and from Pennsylvania from Kansas. It's a it's a long drive. Yeah. Yeah, it's tough. I've done that. So, yeah, so what, I mean, what kind of tenants are you getting at a $20,000 property? Okay. Well, remembering back to you that this was still really in the crash time and not the trajectory going. higher. And so we were able to buy it, you know, now knowing that that house is in a really

pretty good neighborhood. And so it's probably a C property, as we call it. There's not a lot of crime. There's a little, there's some issues here and there, but not really any that we've dealt with. This particular tenant, you know, has a family and there's several kids. And they pay on time and we really have very little problems as far as, you know, the actual property is concerned. So, you know, it's really a pretty good property, pretty good neighborhood. The only caveat to that is that today you can't, you certainly can't buy that house for $21,000. That deal is no longer there. Gotcha.

Yep. So how are you finding properties today? I mean, I don't know if we want to shift over to that part of the podcast now, but, I mean, if you can't buy that one anymore for 20, what are you doing today? Well, to be honest, there was actually a house on that same street, which by the way, I thought was perfect because the street name was Harmony. And I loved in my life to be able to get back into real estate and the first deal was on Harmony. And so it was kind of one of those moments where I felt like the stars that aligned and we came back to a place that made sense.

That's great. And so there's actually a house on that same street that I just missed. unfortunately because it didn't get out of investor time. It was a HUD or a REO property. And, you know, but it was $30,000 for two-bedroom one bath. But I still would have bought it all day long because you can rent those houses in that neighborhood, you know, so quickly. And you get great tenants. So that's kind of a barometer on what they are now.

And are you managing your own properties now? And are you just doing rentals? Are you doing Philippines as well? And are you managing yourself? Well, just got through firing my property manager because they had just done a terrible job. And there was some disrepair on this property, on this particular property. And we, unfortunately, I didn't really realize how far gone. And for people listening, even though you have a property manager, it doesn't mean they're managing anything.

And so you still have to do your due diligence. and for me, that meant I'm going to go buy that property at least a few times a year and make sure I understand. And I'm always checking in with a management company so that they know, hey, I'm here. I want to note that this property is cared for. Yeah. That's really good advice. And, you know, it's funny.

I'm in, I'm going through paperwork right now for a property I sold, you know, six, seven years ago. And it's just going through it this weekend, as a matter of fact. and I looked at the information that my property manager was sending me. I had a tenant that was six months behind in rent that was still sitting in their apartment. I cannot believe, I cannot fathom, A, that they did not do anything, and B, that I didn't know enough to say, you guys need to do something. I mean, it's astounding. It's astounding that, you know, looking back, that that that, that, you know, looking back,

that that was even possible. So, you know, just because you have a management company doesn't mean they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. And do not, please people, do not allow somebody who is, you know, one month, three months, six months, you know, when somebody's late in their first month, you know, you send them a notice. And if they don't take care of it, you get them out, period. You know, I'm kicking myself in the behind right now, you know, seven years later for what I did.

I can't believe it. Well, we learn those lessons. And for us now, too, we, you know, we don't mess around with that at all. They're late and past whatever the lease is a couple days, boom, they get that three-day pay or quit. That's it. We don't mess around. And we take care of our properties. They're beautiful.

They rent quickly. And, you know, they have their job and we have our job and they better do theirs. How do you make a unit stand out above other units in the area? How do you compete against other rent? mental units beyond what you said, keep your units beautiful. I mean, is there anything else that you do to stand out amongst the crowd? Well, I think one of the things, like in these sea kind of neighborhoods, there's a lot of people that don't care that much about their properties. And from the, from the get-go, when they walk in that property, you know, it has a little bit nicer features.

We actually take time and put money into the bathroom. We take time and put some money into the kitchen, not to the point that we can't get it back out, but that when they walk in, they want to live there. And we're going to get top market rent for the area. We're going to have less vacancy days. We're going to have less things that break because we're going to say, hey, listen, this is nice. And if you break it, you're buying it. And so, you know, we set the expectation at the front. Do you find that they do take care of the properties? I did not have very good success in city properties and found that things were destroyed constantly. So with putting in higher-end things, do you see that they're treated better?

Well, you know, I don't know when we, you know, see obviously any of these kind of things. We have our own litmus test on what the C property means. For these, you know, I really have had a lot better success. Now, it's not like when I had the Section 8 tenants in those properties, and I would have called that more like a D neighborhood. It was terrible. And they didn't care. They didn't take care of anything. It wasn't a good situation. And that's not what my business model is now. It's a better neighborhood than that. It's a better tenant than that. And so we've

had a lot of success with that. Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. So do you do any flipping now? We do. You know, and I've tried to take some time to every time I look at a deal and every time I think through what the options are, the more that we understand and the more that we can see through what we've done, we can have a better idea of how to approach the deals. And so, for instance, one that we're doing right now, we actually, I had it under contract, but then there was far more work that had to be done in a foundation issues, and they're all over my market foundation. You know, you can spend a lot of money very quickly. And this particular one, the lady, owed more money on it than it was worth. And so she couldn't really do a short sale for some various reasons. And so,

So instead of her bringing more money out of pocket, I told her, listen, I will run this like it was my flip. I will just charge you a flat amount of money. And I told her kind of basically everything, what it would have looked like, what I would have made, and made a very appealing for her so that she could have somebody that she understood would be able to get her out of it. And through that, I still made a great amount of money on the deal. I had no risk, zero, because I don't own it. I didn't pay for the contracts because I didn't pay for the foundation. And by the way, we literally dug out an entire 20-foot long, nine-foot deep hole and pushed an entire wall up with this deal in a full renovation inside. And I was able to save her, you know, $15,000, $20,000 when she sold it because, you know, she didn't have to come out of pocket to pay it since she was so far in the hole.

So there's a lot of interesting ways. everybody, you know, there's so many deals out there and there's so many ways to structure a deal. Another flip we're working on right now is a huge project. It's, you know, 2,400 square foot house. It's a full renovation. It was like the cat lady kind of deal in it, you know, you can smell this house. No jokes, Josh. It's like from the corner of the street, guys. From the corner of the street, you can smell the house. Oh, man. Was it like hoarding or just cats? It was cats and cigarettes. Because they go hand in hand. They do not. Luckily, it was not a hoarding house.

Actually, the house that my wife and I bought was a hoarder house, and come to find out, it took them 17 months to just get the house cleared out before they could even sell it. Wow. And so that's a whole other story. Hey, so you talk about the cat house, the cat lady, you know, hi, how you doing? Here's my cats.

You know, she got the cigarette on hand. She got the cats flying around on her. She's throwing them at you like Brandon does. You don't understand. There are cat pictures like every 10 feet in this whole house. Well, but so here. Because they're so cute. Oh, God.

Stop. There's so cute. Okay. Figurines. All right. Just like Brandon's house. Here's what I want to know. I'm so sure.

How do you clean it? Because, you know, that's a question that comes up on the forums a lot. You know, hey, I just bought this house. I've done everything. I cannot get the smell out. What do you do? Well, there's a few. things we can do. First of all, you just get everything out of there. We're tearing every bit of

carpet. There's just so much stuff in there that's been collecting that smell. You got to get it out. And second, there's something that we use, you know, besides paint and that kind of stuff that you can really, obviously in a house like that, you're painting everything. But there's also a thing that we use, called an ionizer, I believe, and you can get it like Home Depot or whatever. And a lot of times you use it for mold, but it cycles the air. It really helps actually clean particles out of the air, and it does an amazing job of getting that smell out of spaces like that. So for mold or smells or whatever.

So we use that a lot. Gotcha. Gotcha. And hopefully, you know, any places that have mold, the mold has also been removed. You're not just running the ionizer to cover up the stench of mold. No, that's another lesson learned. and people really should make sure that they have the compass driving in the right direction.

And when we find things like that, we've built in the budget to fix them, whether it's mold or something else. And we do it right. And we know that we can go to sleep at night that we've done a great job and we have a great business. And when the investors get the bad name, I think that's one of those situations where we band-aided it rather than fixing it. And I don't do that. Yeah. No, that's great. And it's really important.

I harp on it all the time. You know, listen, we, we, you know, if one of us goes and does a crap job on a rehab or, you know, manages their property terribly, it reflects poorly upon the rest of us. And it makes it harder for everybody. It really does. And not only for everybody else, but it also makes it harder for you. So, you know, if you're doing a great job as an investor, it's only going to come back and help you out. So that's, yeah, that's great advice. Yeah.

Hey, how are you finding deals today? I mean, what's your main strategy for finding? stuff. Well, I actually just did my first wholesale deal in this flip that I'm talking about actually came through a wholesaler. We are buying stuff on the MLS still, especially in the rental, those rental areas. And for a while, we were able to pick up some properties that were flips on the market. But right now, in the KC market anyway, almost all those aren't getting out of the investor time period where, you know, there's 15 days or 20 days for owner occupations. to buy them and then they're not being, you know, they're being picked up. So I'm putting a lot more

time and effort into the relationship with several wholesalers and through bigger pockets, actually, I've connected with quite a few different wholesalers and in building that network that we can do through like a bigger pockets, which is totally awesome, guys, by the way. Thank you. And I love it and I love spending time on there and the relationships that I've gotten from bigger pockets have already contributed to deals that are coming and, financing and all kinds of things. So it's, it really is worth the time and effort. And by the way, you can't expect to have deals and those sort of things coming out of bigger pockets if you don't put in the time and effort to do it. So that's really important. Awesome. Yeah. Well, nice.

When I bought my first rental, I thought collecting rent would be the hard part. Nope. The admin crushed me. Every night was receipts, tax forms, and checking who was late on rent. I kept thinking, if this is one unit, how do people run 10? Base lane changed that. It's Bigger Pocket's official banking platform that handles expense tracking, financial reporting, rent collection, and even tenants screening all in one place. It's the system I wish I had from day one. Sign up today at baselane.com slash bigger pockets and get a $100 bonus. Baseline is a financial technology company and is not an FDIC insured bank. Banking services provided by Threadbank. Member FDIC. Most investors spend more time chasing deals than reviewing their insurance. But a quick

coverage check can be fast, easy, and one of these smartest ways to protect and even improve your property's cash flow. As the months get colder, frozen pipes, icy walkways, and seasonal wear and tear can increase the likelihood of claims. And traditional insurance companies aren't always built to handle these claims quickly or smoothly. That's why more real estate investors are turning to steadily. They focus exclusively on landlords, whether it's a single-family rental, a burr-builder's risk policy, or midterm holiday guests. You get fast quotes, flexible coverage, and protection for property damage, liability, and even loss of rental income. Now is the perfect time to review your rates and coverage.

Get a quote in minutes at biggerpockets.com slash landlord insurance. Steadily, landlord insurance designed for the modern investor. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. That means you can stop struggling to get your job notice on other job sites.

Indeed, sponsored job posts help you stand out and hire the right people quickly. Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page where your ideal candidates are looking. And it works. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more applications than non-sponsored post. The best part, no monthly subscriptions or long-term contracts. You only pay for results. And speaking of results, in the minute I've been talking to you, 23 people just got hired through Indeed worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer.

Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of the show will get a $75 sponsor. job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash rookie. Just go to Indeed.com slash rookie right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.com slash rookie. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. So, so you wrote a post. I wanted to make sure I touch on this today. You wrote a post a couple weeks ago, maybe it was last week, called the art of saying no or how to avoid buying a house. that could literally kill somebody.

Oh, yeah. I'm wondering if you can, I guess, tell us a little bit about those. Because, you know, not everyone to listen to the podcast. We have, you know, tens of thousands of people listen to this show. Not everyone's read that. Can you kind of tell us maybe hit both those? I want to hit both those things. Talk about why saying, you know, how to say no and also tell us that story about that house.

Yeah. You know, the Glenda the Good Witch. Remember the house stars? He's in Kansas after all. You know, I knew you could tie that back in. I can see it. You can see it. Well, first, I think being able to look back kind of now having heard my story, the art of saying no comes very quickly now for me because it was a matter of saying, okay, well, you know, it's a lot easier to say no and not have to deal with it than it is to say yes and be in the middle of it and really wish you'd said no.

Yeah. And so, you know, I don't specifically remember the language I used in that blog post. But for me, it was a matter of saying, do I understand the deal? Does it make sense? Does it make money? Does it pass the gut test? And I really feel good about it. And I can sleep tonight knowing that I just bought this house.

And if it doesn't pass those things and it's not working and you have to force to try to make that deal, don't do it. Yeah. And I think one of the taglines I used was, you know, there's a deal for everyone, but this deal might not be for you. Yeah, I like that. So, um, I like the gut test too, by the way. I mean, I think, I think people should rely on that more than anything.

I mean, rely on the numbers, but you know, you got usually is, you know, intuition. And so I love that you mentioned that. More importantly is your wife's intuition. Like that's like every time like my wife's been like, I really don't think we should buy this one. And I do anyway, it's always a mistake. Like the ones that grow up on. And if you don't.

have a wife or your wife's intuition is bad, just call Brandon's. She'll tell you what to buy. She's great like that. All right. So let's talk about the house that could kill someone. I mean, what was that story? I tell you what, I posted on Facebook saying, I want, you know, I'm buying a house in the next 30 days. You know, who has a deal? And within 12 hours, I had two responses on Facebook. So that was cool. And I'm like, hey, maybe this works. So one of them was this house. And I did my due diligence. I looked at some comps.

I had some understanding of what that neighborhood was. And it's actually close to where I grew up. And so I drove there, drove the neighborhood, and walked up to the house. And from what I had heard from the cellar was there was some work that needed to be done. Well, I walk in and immediately you kind of cross the threshold into this house. and the first room that you see looked like it was the worst

drywall job I have ever seen like a monkey and a three-year-old did it together. You know, they were just in there going at it and it was a party and when it was done, it was like Curious George, you know.

So you don't know what you're going to get but they had fun doing it. And so you walk not that much further down and you walk into the bathroom, guys, the panel, the electrical panel is in the shower. I'm not kidding you, in the shower. Stop, come on. You're like, you wake up, you're like, I'm feeling great, get out of your bed, you walk to the bathroom, you brush your teeth, you jump in the shower, and boom, you're staying in the face of water coming at you and the electrical panel.

That's, oh, my God. Wrap your brain around that one. I think that's in the value-engineered DIY category. So you walk into this, you know, out of there quickly, and into the so-called master bedroom. And there's no flooring at all. It's just, you know, OSB-ish. And there's no drywall, floor, ceiling, anything, nowhere. Every single joint, it still scares me thinking about it now.

So every joist above my head is cistered, and then I look to the wall, and there are literally the foundation brackets that you put in a house that's settling in the wall. There's no lighting other than literally a piece of romex coming out of a wall in a light bulb attached to the end of the, you know. So at this point, obviously, I'm starting to think about my life insurance policy holder and making sure that I had had everything lined up correctly. Do I call my wife and tell her I love her? So we walk around the other side. There's another bedroom. Come to find out, they'd put that one on too.

It literally bounced like a trampoline and it felt like it was going to come off the side of this house. and the best part of this whole story was they had taken, they had gone and cut a hole in this roof to add the second story on, but they obviously didn't know what they were doing, and it rained the day that they actually cut the hole in the roof. And so not only did they not know what they were doing, they had no engineering expertise, they had no contracting expertise,

they hadn't built it correctly, and they had all this water damage from having the, you know, heaven's opened up on the house, you know, the day that they chose to, you know, bust the skill saw was out and cut a big hole in it. So, yeah, it was. That's not good. So you didn't buy it. I did not buy it. Was the seller, the person that you were dealing with, were they the seller or were they the wholesale a wholesaler in this one? I might have missed that. Sorry. It's okay. It's the, it was the seller. Now, did you actually, were they there with you or was of age. Oh, man. I don't know. That would have been real hard for me to, you know, bite my tongue.

I didn't. I didn't. And let me tell you what I mean by that. And I think this is important for people to hear. Okay. So, you know, as we know the backside of our, of my story and knowing that we'd said yes, so many times and probably, you know, five years ago, I'd have been, you know, gung-ho about doing something with this house. And it would have been a horrible idea because I wanted to help her. and I think it's important that we understand as investors that we're going to situations that are horrible sometimes and these people have no idea how to get out. Everybody else has told them no. No real estate an agent wants to go into that house.

And how do we help solve the problem? Because that's what we're there for. And so for her, I literally said something like, you know, there's no way I'm buying this house. And I want you to hear me say this that I don't think you should be living in this house either. And I'm not sure if I told her, I thought it was living in there. Oh, yeah. They're living in this house. Oh, jeez. So I told her immediately, I'm like, literally, I think you should get out of this house right now. And I went through the couple options I thought she had, which was short sale. And I'm not sure what it would sell for or if they'd ever approve it because she owed just a pile of money on this house.

So mollish. Or a second, yes. I said literally, you know, Call your bank, mail the keys, throw a party, and move out. Get out. Yeah. Yeah. So. I think this is a really important story because, I mean, I know as people always say like a job of a real estate investor is to solve problems.

Like, and we're all problem solvers. We like to solve these puzzles and put the deal together. And I know I'm guilty of that, always trying to make every deal fit. And I've heard it said, like there's always a price for every property. But sometimes there isn't, right? Like sometimes there's opportunity cost and there's other issues that, yeah, maybe you could solve this problem if you really put enough work into it. But is it really worth it? Well, and I totally agree.

And I think, like, for instance, if I was an investor that had, say, I do, all I do is flips and I do flips in the area and I have maybe a general contractor, somebody on my payroll. or I have a contractor person that I actually partner with on a regular basis that we could go in and tear that down. But I don't really do that. That's not my business model. And so for me to take that time and learning that whole new process in the midst of all of that kind of heralds me back to the beginning of my real estate career and saying, okay, no, this is not my model. This is not what I understand. And this is not something that I can spend all this time and energy on.

you know, in this deal. And I don't think it's going to make any money anyway. So, you know, that's when you kind of move on from it. That's awesome. Yeah, that is great advice. I mean, yeah, people need to learn to do that. And really, really quick. I mean, you're literally just, that's just learning how to say no to a bad or unworkable deal.

And it's not easy for everybody. I mean, you know, people, we hear a lot of people in the show and, you know, people talk. about this all the time, hey, you know, any deal is, you know, anything you can, you know, you talk them down, get them down and do it. But you looked at your picture and you said, oh, I don't, you know, I could probably get them down, but I don't have the pieces in place to manage and deal with this deal. And, and I think that self-evaluation, which you, you didn't have before the crash and you acquired thereafter is extremely important. And again, I urge everybody listening to try and develop that intuition, that skill, because that's huge, huge, huge.

Right. And also empathy for those people or sympathy, you know, and understanding that, hey, I mean, these people are living in this house and it's a terrible situation. And so you can just walk out of there. But for me, I really wanted to be able to at least say, I did everything I could to help her, not just in the situation, because I couldn't buy it. but because it's the right thing to do. And even though I didn't make a dime on it, give her some direction and make her feel like at least she has some options to get out.

You know, on that topic of, you know, helping people no matter what, one thing that I find, I guess, interesting, when I started advertising for motivated sellers and, you know, whether it was on Facebook or whatever, and people started calling me, I was really nervous at first to talk to people because I was like, I don't know what I'm going to say. I can't help most of these people.

I mean, what do I know? if I can't buy their house. But what I found was actually really cool is, is kind of take it from the standpoint of, I know more about real estate than any of these people do, clearly. I mean, even a beginner in real estate investor probably knows more about real estate than these people do. So, like, I don't know, that's just,

it's kind of off point here a little bit, but I just want to, like, kind of encourage people. You can help people whether or not you're going to get money out of a deal or not, whether or not you're going to make a dime or not. Like, make it your goal to help the person in every single phone call that comes in, every conversation you have, try to help that person, their situation whether or not you can do anything or not.

Why? Why would somebody do? I mean, no, I agree with you, but like, why would somebody do that? There's something, beyond just being a good person, there's also some value that comes out of it. What comes with that? Well, for me, very clearly is more deals. And I can say 100 percent, there are multiple people that I have bought their homes or helped

their friends buy homes who have then called me with another deal. I have this friend. I have, you know, my mother needs to sell or whatever. And so I think, I believe, I believe in karma. I believe what comes around, goes around, and that we do the right thing because we know in the end it comes back around to us. And, you know, just, just kind of going back to Brandon also just thinking the fact that, you know, what we, like through speaking with sellers, you just get better at it. And you understand what their needs are and you understand how to listen because that's, that's everything. If you can't understand what the problem is, you can't solve it. And so, and I'm a huge proponent of having a mentor. And for me, you know, with the mentors in my life could not only talk through deals, but they can do, you know, actual role playing and that kind of stuff.

And understanding, you know, have a script. Look at somebody else's script. understand where you're going. So at least until you get to the point where you understand what questions to ask and know how to go from there, that you're able to have a confidence going to that conversation. So how do you find somebody that will take you under their wing, a mentor, somebody that can help you? I mean, without paying the 997 a month kind of guy. How do you find that? Well, for me, my mentor came off Craigslist. I literally called the guy after looking at an ad for a home that he had for sale,

and I looked at his business, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is the kind of guy I should have had in the first place, which was, you know, a bunch of properties under management had done, you know, millions and millions of dollars of flips and had a brokerage and had people that work for him and a structure in place, clearly, that was operating on a scale that could grow. and so I took him to lunch.

Nice. And from that came not only a mentor, not only somebody that I trusted to run a deal by, but he also actually became a funder and a partner in deals. And I knew I had finally established the relationship and the trust when he actually called me asking for deals and saying, what do you have going on? I have funds available. Let's do some deals. Nice.

That's great. I love that. I mean, we've talked about that before. but I don't think we could, you know, say that enough about the idea of finding a local, successful investor that you can just partner or, you know, learn from and eventually you never know what will happen. I mean, you don't go into it like assuming you're going to do that, but I just think it's so powerful to do that. And I love that you are an exact example of what I always going to harp on with that. And we talk about that in our ultimate beginner's guide. And for those

people who haven't heard of it or haven't read it. It's biggerpockets.com slash UBG, Ultimate Beginners Guide. And, you know, we talk about education and how to get training and how to learn the industry. And, you know, as anybody who knows anything about Bigger Pockets knows, you know, this is really one of the big things for me as well is, you know, I just, I don't see. why somebody would need to pay someone in California or New York or Ohio or wherever, you know, a place that you are not, you know, who's charging you X amount of dollars, you and, you know, 10, 50, 100, 1,000, 5,000, 10,000 people, some amount of money for them

to train you. When you can find somebody local in your area who's got boots on the ground, who can hold your hand, who you could go sit down for coffee with, and who you're not on the clock, with. There's a big difference between like, hey, oh, I get, I get 60 minutes once every two weeks to talk to this guy who's this national guru. He's on TV or he's got a course or whatever it is. You know, you don't have to do that. You can just find that local guy who's successful. And these guys want to find you because, you know what, if you're going to be working and you're going to be helping them out, it's in their interest to find young, hardworking investors who are excited.

You're going to bring them deals. You're possibly going to partner with them. Find those guys. Those guys are going to help you blow your business up. And you know what? It's not going to cost you a dime. Maybe it'll cost you, you know, $10 for a hamburger or a cup of coffee. Right.

Money well spent. You know, I think having a mentor, depending upon what the business model is and that kind of thing, if it's somebody that really does that niche business or, whatever, it's probably worth paying somebody depending on what it is. But, you know, if you're paying a big pile of money for some guru guy that, you know, you're not having that personal relationship with, to understand and really, you know, be invested in your business. Now, the second part, too, is, and I actually met with somebody off of bigger pockets, had coffee, he bought, it was great. And one of the things that we were talking about, he had a potential for a partner.

and we were talking about what the splits were offered in the deal, and I won't go into details on that, but that he was kind of questioning his split. And I said, dude, you have nothing to offer, other than your energy enthusiasm and willingness to do that. And all of a sudden we left that meeting, and he's like, thank you for putting it in perspective. because as new investors, we have a lot to learn.

And so we can take that enthusiasm. We can take an opportunity where we can make still a great amount of money. This other person is the risk. They're taking all the risk. They're funding the whole deal. They're teaching you on the same time and you get that education. And by the way, out of that meeting came some potential for some amazing funding and partnership, which was cool. Oh, fantastic.

That's great. That's awesome. Man, I love this. We can talk about this forever, but we got to move on, and we're going to hit up the world famous fire round right now. It's time for the fire round. This is the fire round. All right. All right, the fire round.

These questions come straight out of the BiggerPockets forums, which you can get to at biggerpockets.com slash forums. All right. Question number one, when is it the right time to take action in real estate? We kind of touched on this earlier, but when do you know it's the time? the right time to actually jump in. You've learned enough. You can go make, get your first deal. That's a great question. I, you know, I think the time is when you've aligned the pieces. So do you have some money and reserves? Do you have some experience education, whether it's a mentor or reading? You know, maybe you have gone to some sort of seminar, something fine.

I think once you kind of have the stars aligned and you've gotten some education and maybe it's a lot more education or maybe it's a lot more on the mentor side. And I think the thing to me, after all the things I'd gone through, it was really important to me to have some money in the bank when we went out in bought investments. Because if you don't have anything to cover the rainy day fund or something that comes up or some issue, that was the thing to me that, what are you going to do if you have no options. So, you know, have your game plan, have a business plan, have an understanding of what you're actually going to look for buying, whether it's fix and flip or wholesale or, you know, those kind of deals and then go for it. Nice. Cool. Nice. Awesome. All right. What's your top secret,

your number one secret to winning a negotiation? Well, know the answers before you ask the questions and you have to be able to understand their motivation and be able to make it a win-win situation. And I love Michael Quarles and I love hearing him talk. And I think he has a great point. And as far as understanding, like, hey, this house needs a lot of repair, doesn't it? Yes, it does. You have to find your ways to the questions that lead you to the answers that lead you, due to what you're trying to accomplish, which is buy a house at the right price because

in real estate we make the money when we buy it, not when we sell it. So if you can establish your game plan going into that deal and kind of understanding where you need to go and that the seller understands and they have a full picture of what's going on and why you're offering what you're offering and that you actually can close because there's a lot of guys that will walk in there and they'll talk a bunch of stuff and then they don't close the deal. Nice. And you're talking about show 77 with Michael Quarles, the negotiation show. I think you are. He had two shows with us. You can find that at show 77, biggerpockets.com slash show 77. And that'll get you access to that Michael Quarles show. So yeah.

Cool. Cool. All right. Next question. How do you find a good lawyer that understands the investor mindset? Man, that is a great question. It is vital that that attorney understands and probably does real estate. And for me, it was a matter of, I literally interviewed a bunch of people. And I wanted to hear what they've done. I wanted to hear if they were a real estate investor themselves or maybe they've been in partnership with others. And for me, I have multiple attorneys that I go to.

and they have very specific niches that they work in. One's more contracts. One's more actual kind of a court proceeding type of attorney that if we actually have to go in and actually file a lawsuit against somebody. So you have to really understand what their strength is and play to their strengths, just like anything else in an investor or a deal or whatever. Nice. Nice.

All right. What's the best season of the year to sell real estate? Oh, gosh. Anytime. Well, here's the thing. Every season. In this market, I'm fired up that winter's coming because it's a great time to buy. And so I know that houses are going to sit longer and people are going to be more motivated

because they're not going to want to pay that gas bill. They're not going to want to pay that electric bill. And so that's a great time to buy. And here, you know, in the spring or in the summer after school is out, a lot of times are the best times to sell. But in our market right now, there's a lot of activity. There's a lot of great comps for the properties that we're flipping in the areas. And, you know, we generally don't buy in areas where there's not a fast turnaround for a flip because we don't want sitting there. And so we have a great product. It doesn't last on the market, you know,

more than, you know, days and weeks. So nice. Great. Great. All right. Final question of the fire round. This is kind of self-serving here, but it was a question. So what aspects like to Bigger Pockets has helped you the most in your real estate endeavors? You know, I think that a very immediate access to people who know something and that are willing to talk about it. And I think that's part of the thing for me with Bigger Pockets is understanding, okay, there are people with a different market, different paradigm, what they live in, maybe how many deals they've done or how much money they've made or whatever. But you are able to tap into a whole network of people who, one, care,

two, want to help, and three, for the most part, give pretty good advice. And so if there's, especially once you get a few people who are commenting on something, it's not just one person that you can kind of get a feeling of what's going on. And so I think that's the real benefit, even for things for me that I haven't necessarily done before. I've used it for that where understanding a sub two deal or something like that, where you can put it out there and really have a bunch of people who've actually done it, been there, done that, and can help you give some direction. Awesome.

Great. Great. That's great. Great. All right. Let's move on to the last section of our show, which we lovingly call the... Famous for... All right. These questions we ask everyone, and I know the audience is excited to hear what your answers are. So, number one, what is your favorite real estate book? Well, you know, I have two that I've kept. and used for a long time. And so one is the millionaire real estate guide to investing.

And in that company that Keller Williams brand, they have a bunch of different books that I really do think are pretty good. And that book has been really helpful, kind of more in a macro level. And the second book that I've used a whole lot is the unofficial guide to real estate investing. I love that book. Martin Stone, Spencer Schaus, I have that book. and I think they're really good balance between those two books from a lot more details and nitty-gritty and that unofficial guide to real estate investing and then more macro view

and some marketing and skills and that kind of stuff in the other. That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, I love that book. That was one of probably the most influential books on me was that unofficial guide to real estate investing. So if people haven't read that yet, definitely get it. That's actually on our list. Both those books are on our list of the top 22 best real estate books of all time, which I will put a link to in the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show.

87 maybe. I'll edit this later if it's not correct. All right. Next question. What is your favorite business book? Oh, I just stole your question, Josh. Oh, deal with it. Deal with it. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Now I'm going to answer this question. Ouch. Do it. Well, I don't know if you considered a business book, but I was thinking about one book which somebody on this show continues not to read for our work week, which I really do enjoy. And at some point, I'm going to dedicate a whole blog post to just harassing you about this book. But I'm not going to use that one. I'm going to say Unlimited Power, Tony Robbins.

And I love this book because I love the fact that there's so many different ways to look at people in this book. and understanding the structure of how you can actually, like anything else, if you don't have internally, if you're not internally set up for a deal, it doesn't matter how good the deal is because you're not prepared for it. And so there's so many great things about understanding how to look at people, understanding how to look at deals, understanding how to read people. And so it has just been a hugely helpful book. And I take it almost any time I travel just as the book to dig back into, read back through

and look at. That's cool. Yeah, like a week ago, all of a sudden occurred to me. I never read a Tony Robbins book. And I was like, how is that possible? And so, like, I went on Amazon. I was looking, trying to find the best one. So now that you recommended that, I'm going to buy that today.

Awesome. Yeah, it's a great book. Cool. And by the way, it was a gift from a mentor in my life who happened to be a real estate attorney and title a company owner. and it was one of those times for me too. I'm like, I can't believe I haven't read this book, but it's awesome. Cool.

Cool. Love it. Cool. Hobbies, what do you do for fun? Well, I've been a professional musician longer than I've been a real estate investor. And so I play guitar, play bass, play piano and sing professionally. And then I also absolutely love CrossFit. And I'm an addict for sure.

and I also just completed another triathlon this last weekend as well. So I really enjoy that kind of stuff. Would you complete a trithelon? Triathlon. Oh, I thought the sound must have jumbled out there. I was like, what's a trithelon? Yes, that's a new sport. I don't know.

Weights and bacon. You crossfit guys make stuff up as you go along. So I'm just trying to, you know. We only make stuff up because it sounds that way because other people, are afraid to, you know, necessarily jump in and do it. Right. Yeah, well, listen, I haven't sweat it in like, you know, five, ten years. So, yeah.

If I had a CrossFit gym in my area, I would go or even anybody who did it, but I live in podunk, so whatever. You do. Well, you know, you could build your own little, you know, garage and let's do it. Yeah, but I would just like throwing things around and not knowing what I'm doing. So I'll come have you coach me someday, Nathan. This will be good. Let's do it.

We'll do it. We'll do it. We'll do it. We'll do in this great state of Kansas after all. Oh, good luck. Good luck. All right. Show 87. We're almost done. Let's get there.

All right. Finally, what do you believe sets apart successful investors from those who never give up, never get started, or just fail? I think it's the importance of patience and perseverance. And if you don't have patience to understand the deals and your education and learn your craft, then you're never going to be able to persevere through whether it's a great deal or it's a tough deal. and for us to be able to have the understanding of what is it is and isn't a deal and to grow in our education, grow in our philosophy, our business, and really understanding what our model is in doing it over and over and over and over. And even if you aren't in a position where you can buy something yet, practice and write out the deal and understand the deal and understand what your market is and understand that eventually, because you've done it over and over and over again, it becomes easier. and that you can actually be successful doing it. Nice. That's awesome. That's awesome. All right, man, where do people find out more information about your work?

Where can they link up with you? Well, they can definitely find me on bigger pockets. And I also have a website, fix, flip, rent, kC.com that they can also connect there. Awesome. Nathan, thank you so much for sharing your story. We really, really do appreciate it. I know we dug into some things that were difficult. and I know I certainly appreciate the willingness to be open about everything.

So thank you so much. Absolutely. It's been a pleasure, guys. Thank you. All right, guys, that was Nathan Brooks from somewhere in the middle of America. I think the state is Kansas. I'm not sure that there's a lot of people living there. But if you're one of them, please don't send hate mail.

No, seriously, Nathan was awesome. Really appreciate him being so open about his. life and what he's been through. And, you know, we all go through tough times. And, and I think it's great for others to learn from it. So we always appreciate when somebody is willing to be open about these things. That is true. That is true. I know back on our very first podcast we ever did, it was on how to lose a million dollars with Marty Bordman. So yeah, people can, definitely, if you've listened to that one, this one will be kind of familiar. So it's good to hear those stories. So with that, let's get out of here, Josh. Yeah. Well, before we do,

do again, a quick thanks to our sponsor, Pensco Trust, and you could learn more about them at learned.Pensco.com. Definitely check them out. We'll have a link to that in our show notes as well. Otherwise, listen, if you haven't done it, you heard Nathan, he's on there, he's active. He's making partners and friends and doing business with people because, you know, Bigger Pockets is the place to be. So if you're not on Bigger Pockets yet, jump on, create an account today. It's free. www.bakerpockets.com and start engaging, connecting. Otherwise, hang out with us on Facebook, on Twitter, on Gplus, on LinkedIn, on Pinterest. We're everywhere. And that's it. Get out there, make things happen, learn, be successful, be kind to others. And I don't know, go walk an old lady across the street,

do something cool. Good man. Yeah, there you go. I'm Josh Dorkin. Signing off. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio. simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast.

Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday. and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K, copywriting is by Calicoe content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk. So use your best

judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. Bigger LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential, or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.