BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 89: From High School Dropout to 300+ Real Estate Deals with Engelo Rumora

Episode Date: September 25, 2014

Looking to be inspired? Today on The BiggerPockets Podcast we sit down and chat with Engelo Rumora, a real estate investor with a fascinating story that involved dropping out of high school, playing professional soccer, and building up a massive real estate investment business across two continents! Don’t miss this incredible interview where we cover numerous topics ranging from getting started, flipping houses, networking with potential lenders, finding (and working with) mentors, running a growing business at a young age, and a lot more! In This Show We Cover: How Engelo got his start in Real Estate Investment The challenges of jumping in without formal education Valuable tips on effective networking The varied & diverse deals Engelo has made in his career so far Why he decided to move from Australia to the US Details on his first deal (and why he almost got killed because of it!) The 3 essential traits every investment partner should have How to avoid shady operators Tips on how to find the most promising properties How Engelo and his team finance their deals The keys to managing a business from a young age What he’s learned about building a brand and marketing a business Engelo’s vision for the future of his company And so much more! Books Mentioned in the Show Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie Tweetable Topics “Formal education will you earn you a living, while personal development will give you a lifestyle.” (Tweet This!) “Many people are school smart, but life-dumb.” (Tweet This!) “No matter how many times you get hit, you just got to pick yourself up and keep going.” (Tweet This!) “Passion definitely inspires passion.” (Tweet This!) Connect with Engelo Engelo’s Personal Website Engelo’s Company Website Engelo’s BiggerPockets Profile Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast, show 89. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorkin, host of the Bigger Pockets Podcast. here with my co-host, Mr. Brandon Turner. What's going on, Brandon? What's going on? Josh, how are you? Good to be back home? It is good to be back home. It is. It is. Yeah. We, for those of you who don't know, Brandon and I were just in Nallands, New Orleans for a conference and got to spend a few days together in person, which is always fun if you're Brandon and always scary if you're me. But I had a good time. I had a good time. Yeah, we met with a lot of financial writers and stuff.

and had a really enjoyable time walking up Bourbon Street. So that's a crazy area. That is. And I will tell you really quickly, because I know I pissed a lot of people off when I was talking about San Francisco. I take it all back. I take it all back. I mean, all right, you know, I was ripping on San Francisco for how dirty it is.

And I was like, oh, my God, this is the most disgusting place. And it wasn't really true. But there's a reason for that. And that's because New Orleans is officially the dirtiest place I've ever been. in my life. Brandon Turner, you were with me. Do you concur? I do. I do. It was very dirty, both physically and, I don't know, mentally. I don't know. It was an interesting area. I think that was a word we always described it. Interesting. Yes, yes. So we just pissed off a whole other segment of our population. But yeah, yeah, there we go there some time. It's good, good city to visit.

Yeah, go for so. So today's show, we have an awesome show today, an awesome show. It's really good. We do. We do. Absolutely. So we're going to talk to a guy who's actually, from the great continent of Australia. And he's got some really good. He actually investing in the U.S., but it's from Australia. So you guys get the treat of an accent today. Woo, never had that before. Fancy.

Yeah, look at us. But yeah, let's move on to today's quick tip. Quick tip today is jump on the forums. You'll hear why later. We're going to talk about it, but jump on the forums, get active. It builds your trust. And we're going to talk a lot about that, a really interesting thing at the end of the show about that. So pay attention.

Nice. Awesome. So today's guest is Angelo Rumora. I don't say it quite as cool as he says it himself. I would attempt to actually pull the Aussie thing, but it's just not going to work. So Angelo has been real estate investing for not very, the past, what is it, four or five years?

I think so, yeah. Yeah, something like that. I mean, he's done hundreds of transactions, a hundred of them, including his own personal funds, used to play professional soccer and left school at the age of 14 years old to get into that. I mean, the guy is a ball of energy.

he's fascinating to talk to, and he's building his team, he's scaling his business up, and it's a lot of fun, lots of great tips in this one, so definitely pay attention. Most investors spend more time chasing deals

than reviewing their insurance. But a quick coverage check can be fast, easy, and one of these smartest ways to protect and even improve your property's cash flow. As the months get colder, frozen pipes, icy walkways,

and seasonal wear and tear can increase the likelihood of claims. And traditional insurance companies aren't always built to handle these claims quickly or smoothly. That's why more real estate investors are turning to steadily. They focus exclusively on landlords, whether it's a single-family rental, a burr-builder risk policy,

or mid-term holiday guests. You get fast quotes, flexible coverage, and protection for property damage, liability, and even loss of rental income. Now is the perfect time to review your rates and coverage. Get a quote in minutes at biggerpockets.com slash landlord insurance. Steadily, landlord insurance designed for the modern investor. A lot of property managers think their job is answering tenant emails and coordinating repairs.

That's not the job. The job of a property manager is protecting and growing your operating income and earning your trust while they do it. And that comes down to three numbers, occupancy, delinquency, and net promoter score. If those numbers slip, your income slips, and your trust slips too. And most PMs don't hold themselves. to performance standards. They focus on activity, not outcomes. Mind is different. They obsess over the metrics that actually grow your cash flow. Go to mind.co slash show me to see how mine performs and get a month of management for free. Because if you're going to hire a property manager, hire one that

manages your investment like an investment. What if I told you you could forget everything you know about investment property loans? Because host financial is rewriting the rulebook, tossing out those pesky DTI restrictions. They focus on your property's income potential. No tax returns or personal income statements needed. Simple, efficient, and tailored for investors like you. Imagine a lender that sees the gold mine in your property, not just the numbers on your paycheck. That's the host financial difference.

And they're approved in 47 different states, so your next big deal could be just around the corner. Ready to unlock your property's true potential? Visit hostfinancial.com. Don't let old school lending hold you back another day. That's hostfinancial.com. And with that, why don't we just jump on? Let's do it. Bring him in.

All right, Angela, what's up, man? Welcome to the show. Hey, guys. Thanks for having me. All right, thank you. And as people can tell, you have an accent. You can have an accent. Where are you from?

I sure do, mate. I'm from Australia. Australia, nice, nice. Country, as they say. It is one of my favorite places. I have not been yet. It's on my list, like top 10. You got to go.

You got to go. I spend time in Sydney, Cairns, Canberra. It's awesome. Nice. That's awesome. Well, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome to America. But you're, yeah, you're not in Australia right now, though. You're right?

You're here. No, I'm here in Toledo, Ohio. Okay. Let me just stop you right there. You know, of all the places on this planet to decide to come to from Australia, why Ohio? No offense to all the Ohio people who just tuned out. But why Ohio?

Mate, well, actually, I started off with Kansas City. So I was living in Missouri. better. I know. I know, eh? Wow, middle of nowhere. No, but I guess, you know, ever since I started investing in real estate and the first few mentors that I had, they kind of taught me to focus more on trust and relationships before actually looking at any stats and demographics of a particular area. And that's, I guess, how I established my, you know, first relationships in Kansas City, which kind of progressed on to, you know, me moving to Toledo now. Got it, got it, got it.

Ready? Yep, all right. So you ended up in Toledo, started in Casey. First off, like, what kind of got you into real estate? Tell us about your background before that. I mean, like, what did you do before? I know you were a soccer player, right? Tell me the whole quick and dirty story.

Sure. Well, mate, pretty much, you know, I've been playing soccer since I was five years old, started off playing in Croatia where my parents are from, and eventually moved to Australia. And then I got a professional gig at the age of 18 in Hong Hong Kong and moved back to Australia and I guess I quickly realized that it just wasn't a sustainable way moving forward, continuing to play the game. I didn't believe that by the age of 30 I could make enough money and have a sufficient

lifestyle moving forward. So, you know, I guess I decided, unfortunately, you know, to let soccer go and, you know, started focusing on business or trying to find another way of, you know, achieving that financial freedom, you know, without having any formal education, the first job I could find was a laborer, right? So I was pretty much sweeping floors on dirty construction sites. I was making good money, but I just, you know, I didn't like what I was doing. And once again, you know, started doing a lot of research. And I got given a book by one of my good friends, Rich Dad and Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. A lot of the folks on the forum mentioned that book as

as a book that, you know, opened their eyes up and got them started in real estate. And, you know, I quickly got a job as a buyer's agent for a realtor who was a very successful realtor in Sydney. And I over time combined the two, you know, my construction skills and knowledge with, you know, real estate and working as an apprentice for this successful realtor. And that kind of led me to flipping. Wow. And you said no formal education. I mean, you, from what I understand, you, you didn't even finish school, right?

Yeah, man. I'm pretty formally stupid. I mean, tell us about that story. It sounds fascinating. Sure. Well, you know, when you're looking at playing a sport at an elite level, there's a lot of training that has to be put into it. And then, you know, I guess school and education gets put on the back burner.

And, you know, I had the talent to really make it at a grand level like in Europe. And that's when I kind of decided that the best thing to do would be to quit school. So I quit school at the age of 14 and just, you know, completely focused on trying to make it big as a professional soccer player. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So at 14, you're out, you go to soccer and then you turn back around. That's amazing, man. I mean, you know, by the way, you know, you say you're formally stupid, but, you know, there's a lot of people who go and spend their lives going to college and master's agrees who aren't as successful as you are. So, yeah. Well, I always, I always like to joke around and say that, you know, well, actually, there's a saying that says

formal education will give you a, earn your living while personal development will give you a lifestyle, right? I think there was some guru out there that, um, uh, quoted that saying. That's cool. That's awesome. Let me ask you this. And just from a, if you were going to talk to somebody younger, maybe, maybe not 14, but just say a very young person, but wanting to go to college or not, um, yeah, what is your, I mean, if somebody wants to get into real estate, but they're 18, 19 years old, what's your advice to them? Do you tell them to follow your path or, or go to college still or finish school? Um, not really. I mean, if you can go to college, finished the school. I mean, it's very important to have that education behind you, but I mean,

you know, it doesn't mean you're going to be successful if you go to school and you finish that college. I know many people that are school smart, but life dumb, as they sat, you know, and everything that I know today and everything that I've learned today, yes, the odds weren't in my favor. You know, most people said that I was going to end up sleeping under a bridge, right? But, you know, I really, really focused on achieving success and asking questions of people who are where I wanted to be. You know, I attended very, very, very. personal development seminars, networked with, you know, very high-end and wealthy people. And, and, you know, that's how I learned everything I know today. So, you know, read a lot of books,

went to seminars, conventions, expos, all of that stuff. And, and, you know, just asked a lot of questions of people who are where I wanted to be. I mean, school doesn't teach you that stuff. You know what I mean? So, and, and, you know, actually going in there and doing it yourself and losing two or three hundred grand, like, I did when I first started. I mean, I like to say, that was my education, right? That was my college. Wow. Wow. And mistakes learned. Yes.

So you mentioned, like, you know, networking with high net worth individuals and getting out there asking questions. So let's talk about that. A lot of people wanting to get started in real estate are scared, like, to talk to people, right? They're scared to go and ask for advice and help. You know, that's one of the things that makes the bigger pockets forums such a success is that people do that. But how do you do that in the real world? How do you just go find somebody to talk to them? Where do you find them at? How do that? Well, mate, as I preach on the forums, just get active. I mean, pick up the phone and freaking call someone. I mean, we'll not call someone, but I'm sure you can, if you do a quick

Google search, you jump on the forum. I mean, everyone's number is on the forum. You can give them a call and if they don't answer. We'll call the other person. If they don't answer, call someone else. You know, I like to preach on the forum a lot too. It's, you know, a lot of it's got to do with the numbers. Sit your butt in a chair, pick up the phone and just call people, email people, you know, network on Facebook, you know, bigger pockets, comment. And eventually, when you commit to the numbers, doors start to open. It's just absolutely amazing. If you really commit to those numbers, you send out the emails, you make the phone calls, and I mean just call anyone and everyone that's related to whatever you're looking at achieving. If you're looking at finding a

good attorney in a hire, well, you know, you do a Google search, good attorney in Ohio and just call the first 10 that pop up on Google, you know what I mean? And eventually, you know, as I said, doors start to open and the magic happens. That's awesome. I love that. I love it. So how many deals have you done now? I just want to know, like, what level are you at today? Yeah. Well, mate, I've done 100 deals with my own personal funds and I've probably been involved. in over 300 deals over the last four and a bit years since I started in real estate. So what did what did those other deals? I mean, that's 300 deals that are not your funds, right? So what does that mean? Well, sometimes I would be a joint venture partner where I wouldn't

be using my own funds, but I would have other investors coming to the table with their personal funds. And I would just kind of advise them and guide them throughout the process. You know, I also did that whole bird dogging stuff, did a few wholesale deals, worked as a buyer's agent in Australia, where I was sourcing a lot of properties for investors all around New South Wales. So that's what I would kind of categorize as, you know, doing over 300 deals. What kind of deals are, though? Are we talking about flips or rentals or what are we doing? Yeah.

Well, the 100 deals that I was involved in with my personal funds, they were mostly flips. You know, so I would be buying very rundown properties, even in Australia, same as I am here, you know, fixing them up to a great standard, getting them tenanted, selling them to investors or, you know, just I'm selling them to homeowners. Okay. Really quick question, and we'll get back to what you got, Brandon. Is it any different in Australia or is it the same thing? Just get a cheap property, fix it and sell it.

I mean, I'm just curious. Yeah, well, I guess, you know, the principle behind the whole operation is pretty much the same, but it's a complete different world here to Australia. I mean, you're looking at a median house price in Sydney of $850,000 today. I mean, you know, for instance, here in Ohio, you know, we can pick up homes for 10, 15, 25 grand depending on the class of area. I mean, in Sydney, you know, you're buying a fire damaged home for $350,000, you know, so I guess that would be the biggest difference. But, you know, some of the names and the way people were certain things like here, it's rehab in Australia's

renovation. Those are a few little different things too. The materials used in the construction side of things are also a little bit different. But to be honest, if it probably took me around six to nine months to actually adapt to the lingo used here in the U.S. and the materials used and the difference in prices. Interesting. Interesting. Well, so what brought you to the U.S. then? I mean, you kind of talked about it earlier, but what actually was it, I want to do real

estate. It's cheaper in America. Let's go there. Well, yeah, mate. Look, I built quite a large portfolio in Australia. You know, it was worth over a million dollars in a very short space of time and a lot of media outlets picked up on it there and got a bit of a bit of a ride up there. But, you know, once again, same as I did with soccer.

I was quickly to realize that it wasn't a sustainable investment moving forward, buying high, hoping to sell even higher. I mean, my portfolio was neutrally geared, but it still wasn't spitting out the cash flow that every investor really wants to invest in real estate is to supplement the current job they're working in, right? And I wasn't getting that in Australia. You know, yes, I was building my portfolio at a rapid pace, but it was neutrally geared. If any issues arose, I'd be losing money because I'd had to, you know, put my own hand

in my own pocket to cover the losses. And, you know, once again, if you keep active via seminars, expos, forums, you know, you start to expand your mindset and, you know, US property came up as a topic and I started digging into it more. And that was around the same time when prices were pretty rock bottom here. And, you know, once again, you know, started establishing relationships here. I was on scribe calls and phone calls in early hours of the morning back home in Oz. And, you know, one thing led to another and I saw how attractive the prices were here, especially in the Midwest, Kansas City, for instance, now Ohio.

I mean, you're buying properties for 10, 20 cents on the dollar. I mean, it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I know that might sound corny, but in my opinion, it freaking really is, you know? Oh, whoa, oh, freaking. Hey. Oh, hey. Passion. Passion.

Hold your horses, mate. I won't be banging my hand on the table. That's all right, right? Nice. All right. So you're excited, clearly. Clear you're enthusiastic about this stuff. So why do we?

Well, why do we jump to your first deal? What did that look like? Well, put me on the spot there, eh? You didn't expect it. I mean, if you listen to our show, you might have known that was coming. But, you know, it's okay. Believe it or not, mate, the first deal almost got me killed. Well, that's an Australian thing, man.

We don't. Yeah. And it wasn't by a freaking poisonous spider. That's what I was wondering. Yeah. Like the wallaby came in and like slashed your neck as he jumped in. Started boxing me, mate, standing up on his tail, eh, and hit him. me with his, no, mate, it was in a regional town in Melbourne called Mildura. It was the only

affordable area, believe it or not, that I could find in a whole of Australia, around a 12-hour drive. I believe I picked up the property for around $155,000, three-bedroom brick home, put around $15,000 into it and revalued it at 210, pulled out around $40,000 in equity, and off I went to the other one. So did you actually sell it, or did you? Did you actually sell it? Or did you just refi it? No, I refied it. All out the equity and then I use that as a deposit and renovation for the property number two. How did that almost kill you? Yeah, I was going to say, that's the boring, boring, exciting story I've ever heard. Yeah, well, being a little bit of a psycho and passionate guy, as you mentioned, what I did is... I didn't call you psycho, by the way,

so don't come and kill me. My wording, my wording. I would get in the car at like midnight, I drive 12 hours, get to Mildura at noon. I'd work all day, sleep for three or four hours, then I'd do that for five days straight, and then I would get in their car and drive back. And on the way back, six hours into the drive, I just lost control, and I flipped the car at like 80 miles an hour, five times. Wow. Oh, my God.

Yeah, so very, very lucky to be here. It shook me up for a good six months. I was having all of the vertigo and nausea, vomiting and all that stuff. But, yeah, lucky to be here, that's for sure. Wow. Crazy. Okay. So it wasn't somebody that attacked you. It was just the fact that you didn't want to pony up for a hotel and stay instead of schlepping back and forth. Pretty much. Rushing for 12 hours at 80 miles per hour. Yeah, that's crazy.

Pretty much. Well, I'll tell you what. I definitely won't be doing that again. That's for sure. Yeah. Bananas, man. Well, we're glad you're here. So the majority of your deals have been like fix and flip properties, correct? Yeah, that's correct. All right. So what do you like about that? Why did you go for that first starters? I mean, why? Why that strategy? Why does that work for you? Well, Mike, because that's the only thing

I was allowed to do as an alien resident here in the US, right? Oh, really? I guess that makes sense. I mean, you know, when I moved to the US, you know,

I started off with a visa waiver and then I progressed to the B1B2 visa and pretty much what the visa states is you're only allowed to, you know, sign documents to purchase the house and sign documents, sign the contract to sell it.

So, you know, when I moved here, my goal was to build a portfolio where it would be producing enough passive income for, you know, myself, my family and my friends to enjoy the lifestyle we desire, right? And sorry, I lost my train of thought there. That's okay. I was just going to make another smarty, smart aleck remark about you just, you know,

you should have just flown to Mexico and walked over the border and you went ahead to deal with the paperwork. It would have been fine. Yeah, yeah. Don't worry about it. All right. So, I mean, fix and flips. There was a reason behind it and that's fine.

So as you've gone along, I mean, you transition. from using your own money to kind of working with other people, right? Sure. Well, not so much. At the moment, I'm still using my own personal funds. And you just actually remind me what I wanted to say. The main reason behind the fix and flips was when you fix and flip a property, right, you make a lump sum profit, which after doing three or four properties, you can actually,

you know, use some of that profit to buy and hold a property for your own portfolio. Yeah. And going back to the previous question, that was the main goal why actually moved to the US. It's to build a portfolio to a level where, you know, everyone can enjoy the lifestyle they design. My loved ones, including myself. But in order to be able to hold that property, I had to buy rehab, flip, make the lump sum profit and then maybe four for fifth property, I could hold for my own portfolio and build

it to 15, 20 properties. That's a great strategy. So you use the job of being a flipper to create the passive income of a buy and hold. That's correct. in order to be able to buy and hold investment property from my own portfolio. That was the main reason behind the whole flipping strategy. So when you were building your portfolio and not just rental but flips too, what kind of mistakes did you make in that process?

Can you kind of go over some of the, where'd you screw up on in your career? Trusting the wrong people. Really? Very simple. Trusting the wrong people. How so, mate. It's, you know, when you put your trust in other people's hands,

especially when you're from afar, right? I see that topic come up on bigger pockets quite often. You know, there's a lot of things that happen which are out of your control. You know, I always like to tell everyone to really, really, really focus on those trust and relationships. You know, without going into too much detail how it happened. But, you know, when you're looking at building a portfolio in real estate or investing out of state or out of country, you really need to make sure that the people you're working

with, even if you're investing with people that are based locally, you know, that you kind of have a mutual benefit and you know you both have each other's interest at heart so I guess over the years you know the biggest mistakes and the most money that I ever lost was you know unfortunately falling trap to other partners that really did not have my heart and interest and you know they weren't loyal they weren't honest and they were greedy you know and that's now with with the business that I've currently got you know those are the three things that I look for in everyone you know is number one loyalty number two honesty and and don't be greedy um So, yeah.

That's great. That's really, really good advice. I know I've heard that time and time again from people on the show. We ask mistakes a lot. And it almost always, like, the biggest mistake people have or the biggest thing that causes a downfall is usually trusting the wrong people. Yeah. Well, I always like to say, for instance, sorry to interject, mate.

But, you know, same as on the forum. I always like to say, you know, it's not the stats and demographics that are going to cost you their money, right? It's trusting a property manager that's incompetent or ignorant that that's going to cause you to lose money, right? and all the other stuff, a project, a rehab, an attorney, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, a lot of investors, what I've found is they get caught up in these online calculations of figures and this formula on a 2%.

Well, Jesus, man, I've got no clue what these rules are, you know. Sorry, no offense to anyone that made them up, but, you know, you can literally buy a house in the heart of Detroit, right, which everyone always talks badly of. But if you have to, yeah, but if you have the right people on the ground, yes, they might have to wear bulletproof vest and collect the rents with shotguns. But if you can trust them, they're going to do the job and you'll collect your rents. You know what I mean? Vice versa, you can buy the best house in the best street and the best capital growth area, right? But if you have the wrong people around you, collecting your rents or looking after your investment,

even if you're there on the ground, you'll still lose money. So how do you vet people? What's your process? Because, you know, as somebody who's been burned, you've probably changed your criteria on how do I know somebody? is not greedy. How do you know that somebody's not going to screw you? I mean, what do you do? I've got one elimination question, right? I found that everyone here in the U.S. is very transactional. They just want to do business very quickly. And if you don't want to do business with them, you know, they'll just leave and go work with someone else. The question that I ask everyone, actually, I don't ask, well, I do ask them a question. I say, look, it's great connecting.

Trust is built over time, not over one phone call, meeting or email, right? Yeah. Would you be willing to spend six to nine months or even longer build a that trust in relationship with me, answering any question that I have and assisting me without conducting any business, right? That's the way that I eliminate 99% of shady operators, be it attorneys, property managers, contractors, whatever it may be. Walk me through that again. So give me an example of what that looks like because I think that's really interesting and I want to hear more. So for example, let's say you're a, I don't know, you're a property manager in, let's say, St. Louis. Okay. And we, I can. I can.

connect with you via phone, we exchange a few emails, et cetera, et cetera, right? So pretty much I would pop the question where I would say, look, I'm not currently looking at conducting any business in St. Louis for at least six, nine to 12 months, okay? I'm going to have a lot of questions and I'm probably going to take up a lot of your time, but there is potential to do a lot of business together in the future. Would you be interested in working with me over those six to nine months, educating me on the market and what it takes to succeed in that particular area, answering any questions that I might have and just going going out of your way to assist me, you know, to open up my eyes in regards to, you know, what it takes to succeed in that market.

So that would kind of be the basis behind that question. That's an amazing question, by the way. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. And what you'll find is that 99% of the operators, you won't hear from them anymore after you send them another email or they'll start being very slow with returning your phone calls. Why?

Because it's instant gratification. They just want to make money there and then, right? They're not willing to wait six, nine to 12 months or they're not interested in building a long-term relationship, right? And this is something that you don't want because one or two houses are not going to give you financial freedom. One or two houses are not going to supplement the current job you're working in. You need to buy 10, 15, 20 properties, right?

And in order for someone to be able to run your portfolio successfully, they will want to be doing business with you for 5, 10, 15 years. Not many people can buy 15 properties in one hit and be financially free. So it's very, very important that you don't. jump in, you don't bite the bullet and make a stupid decision, spend the time doing due diligence on the people more than the area and the demographics. And that's one key question that, you know, got me to where I am today. And as I said, 99% of the operators, you will eliminate them with that question. Oh, yeah. I was going to say, I mean, I can't imagine very many people

would do it. Now, so that takes us to the 1%, right? I mean, what do those 1% look like? And how to How does somebody find them? Because, you know, clearly you're going to dissuade a huge, huge number of people. And frankly, you know, for those people listening, I mean, that might be a major turnoff. Oh, man, I don't want to keep going through people. I keep getting rejection after rejection or ignored after ignored. You know, how do you do that? Yeah, I get you.

Look, it's worth it. It's worth spending that time to get the right people because if you don't, you're going to be losing big money like I did. And I agree. And I lost money for the same purposes. Yeah. And, you know, it's worth spending that time. I mean, I always like to say, until you are comfortable with making the next step and until you feel confident in the structure that you've established on the ground, you know,

do not let anyone influence your decision. And, you know, that's the key. Just spend the time. I guess what was your question? You said, how do you find that right person? Once again, pick up the phone and call, email, get active on the phone. Get active via emails. you know, contribute to the forum.

Eventually doors will open. It took me 18 months to open up this door that I've got in Ohio now. You know, I met a great guy, Tim, my business partner right now. And we first connected, you know, in late 2012. And it took us a good two years to establish the relationship that we have. And, you know, we decided to open up, start up a higher cash for around seven months ago. So, you know, but once again, you know, all good things take time. Trust is built over time.

And, you know, as long as it takes. just keep building that trust and relationship. You know, it really stands out to me there. You talk about, you know, how trust is built over time. And here's something interesting, right? So people will come on bigger pockets on the forums. They go into the marketplace and they post a thread. And it says, I'm looking for someone to finance my property.

I'm looking for someone to buy my property. They've got four total posts. They haven't been on the site in nine months. And that's how they think they're going to get financing. Then you've got other people who are engaging every day that are active, that are asking questions, answering questions. and when they put up a post like, hey, I'm looking to buy or sell or funding or whatever, they get responses. And that is exactly why. I mean, there's 30, 40, 50,000 people listen to the show right now that are listening to you talk.

Yeah, it got me nervous. Yeah, now I got you nervous, right? As you should be. There's like, what, 1,500 forum posts every day in the forums. I mean, that's a lot of forms. It's one of the most active forums online. But 1500 compared to 30, 40, 50,000. So, I mean, this is just my, I guess, encouragement to people listening to the show right now is get out. get out there, ask questions, answer questions. They're building now. So six, nine, 12 months later, just like you said, when you need something, you have the credibility and the trust to ask for it. 100% agreed. And one of my early mentors, he's got a $50 million business now. And he built that entire business on one Australian real estate forum and just through YouTube videos, also of the properties that he was buying and doing all kinds of stuff. So, and to be honest, if you mate, a lot of the things that, you know, I know today about real estate is through the forums. And you guys, bigger pockets have been a great help, especially when I moved to the U.S.,

you know, so thank you. Well, thank you. That's awesome here. That's awesome. It is. Well, cool. All right, so we know your story. We know kind of how you got started, how you got to the U.S. and all that. So let's actually kind of shift focus is a little bit and talk about your business today on how you're actually doing what you're doing. So maybe we just start very basic. How are you finding properties? I mean, is the one under a rock here? No, I mean, any way we know how to, you know, We're starting to implement a lot of, what do they call it, like yellow mail, yellow letters, right? We're actually waiting to receive a package now of around 500 postcards, which we're going to be sending out. We're doing a lot of bandit signs.

We're posting on Craigslist Daily, established a lot of relationships with wholesalers in town, bird dogs. I mean, these guys supply us with a lot of inventory. Once people see that, you know, you've got the cash to make a deal happen, you'll start getting inundated with emails on potential deals. Another thing that we've also recently done is we've just rented out a new office space, a thousand square foot little building. So we're painting the entire building blue and yellow, which are our company colors. And it's a very high traffic area. So we're going to put, we really do buy houses on the side because we actually do buy,

right, we don't wholesale them. No, for 20 wholesalers out there. So, yeah, mate, once again, you know, if you keep very active, I always keep referring back to, you know, those phone calls and emails and, you know, I guess keeping your finger on the pulse with checking Craigslist two or three times a day, you know, some of the best deals that either the purchase were of Craigslist, believe it or not. So that's pretty much how we find the majority of our deals. We've also got ties with financial institutions that like to buy in bulk.

And once they hit their figures, you know, they send out two or three hundred deals that they have left that they're willing to, you know, get off their books to the check. We've got around 50 contacts there that we can just give a cold call to and see if they got anything that fits what we're looking for. So, yeah, the deals are out there, mate, that's for sure. That's awesome. What are you looking for exactly? I mean, what style house, what size, what price range are you buying in?

Everything, mate, just depends. You know, we're doing a lot of A class stuff. We're looking at doing a lot of A class stuff in the very near future. Anything that's run down, distressed, needs a lot of work. You know, we're happy to buy it, put the work in and, you know, get a tenanted, sell it to an investor or to an owner-occupier, right? Okay, okay, cool. Well, what about, what about, so I mean, we're just kind of walking through your whole business here. So that's how you find them.

We talked earlier a little bit how you fund them, but maybe we can explore that a little bit more. So, I mean, you said you do someone with your own money. Other times you do JV. Are you raising private money at all? Do you bank loans, stuff like what? No, we don't do any JVs. I'm not sure if you're referring to hard money as a JV. Yeah, you could look at it.

I mean, like, yeah, you could. Yeah, people call it either way, but yeah. Yeah, most of the deals we finance with our own cash. That's one of the main reasons why I sold out of my portfolio that I had in Kansas City, I'm in a few other states just to be able to focus on, you know, buying numerous properties here with my own cash. We've also got hard money on board that we can tap into at any given moment for any deals that we, if we've got our own personal funds tied up in 15, 20 properties, you know, we can use the hard money to take down a good deal. So yeah,

that's pretty much how we finance. Okay. How many do you typically run at one time? I mean, how many deals are you typically in either buying, you know, after purchasing and before closing, how many deals do you have going at one time? Sure. Well, my, look, we started a higher cash for around eight months ago and we've done 35 deals thus far. Okay. 35 flips. So, you know, it depends right now. At the moment, we've got four in the works.

Okay. Okay. So I guess we're probably looking at, you know, around that three to five a month. Okay. How do you do that? I mean, because I struggle, when I'm flipping a house, I struggle doing one. I've done two at a time and that was driving me insane. How do you do it?

Infrastructure, right? Yeah, that's right. That's right. Every extra penny that I get, I look at bringing someone else on board. Okay, once again, you know, formally stupid, right? But I'm smart enough, as Henry Ford said it, I'm smart enough to have smarter people around me doing the things that I can't do, right? So as soon as revenue allows it, I look at getting someone else on board to bump other people out of the current jobs that they're in into a higher role, okay? So, mate, that's the key. You know,

we've got two full-time guys on board right now. I'm looking at getting another two full-time people that, you know, believe in the same vision that we do that are loyal, honest, and they're not greedy, right? And that's how you can, you know, that's how you can start to increase the volume of your business and what you're doing is by getting good people that believe in the same vision, you know, that want to achieve the same success as you do. So who are the two guys that you have right now? Like, who was the first hire? What did he do when you hired him? Who was the second hire? Did the first guy's job shift when you made the second hire? And what was the second guy's job? That's correct. Well, we first started off, right? We've got Dominique in our office. She's my girlfriend

and she's also pretty much working as a PA for me because I freaking type like that, right, with two fingers. PA, a personal assistant, right. Yeah, so she can, I dictate to her and she does all my typing. Nice. Thank God for that, right? So we're going to have to talk about, like, working with your girlfriend as part of this story, too. We'll get back to that.

Well, mate, she's the one that freaking types out all my blogs, mate, because if I had to do it, I wouldn't be able to submit one a week. It would probably be one every two years, all right? So I've got Dominique looking after all that admin stuff, you know, the leases, the contracts. Tim and myself, I mean, we were the attorneys, the accountants, the property managers, the project managers, the hard money lenders, we were the whole lot, right? And eventually, as we started increasing revenue, you know, we managed to hire Josh, who's now on not Josh Dawkin, another guy, right?

I secretly work for Angelo. That's it. So, you know, he's pretty much our director of operations. and he's looking after all of the property management and day-to-day stuff. He also project managers the jobs. We've got Matt on board now who's going to take over the whole role that Josh is doing in regards to the property management. So we're just going to bump up Josh into more of a director of operations role to overlook

what Matt's doing, and Matt is going to be in charge of all of our property management, collecting the rents, you know, updating the property management system, which we are yet to buy and all of that stuff. And then what I've found is eventually I'm going to have to get, you know, or two people just to also assist Matt with managing the properties because it can be quite time intensive when you're starting to do a lot of sales and a lot of volume, you're going to have to have extra people on board just to assist with all of the management. Property management is key. Prior to that, were you using outsourced property management or were you doing it all yourself?

We were. We were outsourcing property management, which is great. Once again, as long as you find the trustworthy property manager. But what I found is, I would rather than, I would rather just knock on the door and pop my head in the other room to see how things are progressing with a certain property, right? In order to have a successful turnkey business, you have to have a big emphasis on property management. I think if you have in-house property management, of course, then you abide by all the Ohio state laws and regulations.

It will complement your turnkey business to a significant level. And that's what your business is. I mean, you have a turnkey business, correct? That's correct. That's kind of what you do. I mean, you do your own deals, but you're also taking money from, you know, you you're selling deals to people as turnkey, correct? Sure.

That's correct. Okay, gotcha, gotcha. All right, and we'll probably get back to that. So how do you find the guys to work for you? What do you do to get those guys? They find me. What do you mean they find you? Once they see how crazy and passionate I am, they're like, what's this guy doing?

I want to do the same thing. You know the saying, mate, if you stand for nothing, you fall for everything, right? Most people these days do not have a purpose in life. They live their day for whatever reason. I mean, they might as well not be living it. And then they see Angelo, right, who's this freaking crazy weird accent dude, right? And he's just talking about real estate and going 100 miles or now. And they're like, I guess, you know, they literally jump on board and they believe in the same vision that I do.

And they see what my purpose is. And my purpose is everyone around me. I don't do what I do for myself, right? Because if you do what you do for yourself or the money, it won't last. It won't push you out of bed every morning at 6 a.m. to get you in the office. And, you know, I guess once again, you know, Josh was working at a. bank. He was a branch manager. And he, you know, took a significant pay cut in order to join our company just because he loved what we were doing. We give him absolute freedom to do what he wants

whenever he wants. And he believes in the same vision that we do. And he gave us a good story about it with the Wright brothers, right? There was some guy that supposedly got funded by the government to invent the flying vehicle, but he never did that, right? And the Wright brothers made that flying vehicle themselves with no budget at all. And then this guy that was funded by the government, I can't remember his name, he actually went to inspect this flying object. that they invented, right? And instead of joining them, right, he was jealous because they were the first ones to invent the vehicle. He just kind of, you know, gave up and went his own way. And Josh gave us an example. He said, well, I didn't start a higher cash flow, but I want to be a part of it.

Right. So, yeah. So find, find people who agree with the passion. Be passionate for starters. And then find people who have similar passions or they'll find you. And that is kind of how Brandon came on. Well, yeah, I was going to say that, right? Josh is passionate about BP and his passion, like, you know, I became passionate about BP because Josh was passionate about BP, and I jumped on board there. And that's kind of how I got my employees and my real estate stuff, too, is, you know, like they saw how passionate I was about real estate and they want to, yeah, so passion definitely inspires passion. And a great leader has to have that. And I think, it rubs off, you know, as I said, a lot of people stand for nothing. They fall for everything.

They don't have a purpose. They don't know why they wake up every morning, you know. And I definitely know why I wake up every morning. And then when, when others around you see that, you know, they want to be a part of it. They want to jump on board and, you know, they want to do great things. And, you know, call it luck. I don't really believe in luck. You know, I just think it's, I don't know. I don't know what it is. But, you know, it just, once again, you know, if you do the small things right, the bigger things just seem to fall into place. Yeah. Yeah, you need a little less passion, man. Why? You know what? Everyone says, we just did. We just did an hour show and a half hour. No, I'm just kidding. Really? No, no. No, I love it. Yeah, I love it.

Everyone's been saying here in Toledo that I'm too intense, and I keep telling you, and you're freaking too old. Seriously? Nice. Go on. I love it. I love it.

How old are you, by the way? 26. So, okay, so you've been, you're a young pup, man. That's awesome. Yeah, that is awesome. Kick my back. You'll kick my butt. But yeah.

At least in a soccer game. Well, cool. Most investors spend more time chasing deals than reviewing their insurance. But a quick coverage check can be fast, easy, and one of these smartest ways to protect and even improve your property's cash flow. As the months get colder, frozen pipes, icy walkways, and seasonal wear and tear can increase the likelihood of claims. And traditional insurance companies aren't always built to handle these claims quickly or

smoothly. That's why more real estate investors are turning to steadily. They focus exclusively on landlords, whether it's a single-family rental, a burr-builder's risk policy, or mid-term holiday guests. You get fast quotes, flexible coverage, and protection for property damage, liability, and even loss of rental income. Now is the perfect time to review your rates and coverage. Get a quote in minutes at biggerpockets.com slash landlord insurance. Steadily, landlord insurance designed for the modern investor.

All right, rental property investors, listen up. Our friends at Dominion Financial already have some of the best DSCR rates in the industry. Now they're the fastest, too. They just launched 10-day DSCR closing. That's right, 10 days. And they're still the only lender with the DSCR price beat guarantee. That means faster closing. The best terms.

Zero guesswork. That's Dominion Financial. Check them out at biggerpockets.com slash dominion. Again, that's biggerpockets.com slash dominion. Wouldn't it be great if your houseplants paid rent while you were out of town? I mean, they've got the whole place to themselves, lots of sunlight, zero responsibilities. But no, they just sit there waiting for someone to spray them with some cool mist like a bunch of leafy loafers. But guess what? Your home actually could be earning you money while you're not there.

Airbnb has a great feature called the co-host network, which makes hosting your home so easy. If you live far from your property or are away for extended periods, you can hire a local co-host to take care of the hosting for you. These co-hosts are vetted locals who already have experience hosting on Airbnb. A co-host can handle all the details like messaging guests, creating your host space, and managing reservations. So everything runs smoothly. It's a practical way to earn a little extra money, maybe even some cash toward your next trip. Plus, you get to share your place with someone traveling to your area while you're off making memories somewhere else. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host.

Real estate investors, the April 15th tax deadline is coming fast. If you own rental property and haven't visited Costsegregation.com yet, you can be handing thousands of dollars to the IRS that you don't have to. Costsegregation.com is self-guided software that helps you write off up to 25% of your building to generate huge, tax deductions. With pricing under 500 bucks and average tax savings of $25,000, Costsegregation.com is fast and affordable, making it perfect for single-family rental properties, condos, townhomes, and even ADUs. What's more? Audit defense is included in the price and backed by KBKG, the number one cost segregation company in the U.S. Costsegregation.com was launched over 10 years ago and has a 100% success rate under IRS Audit.

You heard that right, a 100% success rate, and that's over 10,000 studies. Go to costsegregation.com and use code tax deadline to get 10% off your first report. Don't overpay the IRS. Head to costsegregation.com before April 15th. So how are you managing contractors? Actually, I want to talk about two different things. One, because you just mentioned you're young. But first of all, I'm going to ask about contractors.

How do you find them? Well, how do we find contractors? Good question, mate. We did have quite a few dramas with contractors. over the years. I mean, that's one of the things that, you know, if you find the good one, eventually something turns sour over three to six months, they get greedy, they want more money or they just start doing stupid stuff and then you've got to look for a new one. How do we find contractors? Word of mouth, I guess, you know what I mean? You know, we speak to,

I guess, our contacts and we see if anyone's got a trustworthy contractor that they can refer us to. And then when we find a good one, we just like to stick with them for as long as possible. You know, we had a few issues with a few contractors a couple of months ago. Right now we've got a few good guys that, you know, are trustworthy. Their prices are good. They do decent work and, you know, they're hungry for more work. So I guess, you know, to be completely honest with you, you know, that's one thing that is, is you really, really never know, because it could be good for six months and then all of a sudden

something turns sour and, you know, they either get busy with other work and you can't keep them on board. Once again, you know, looking at bringing that in-house very soon. Yeah. So hopefully, you know, we can maybe get one or two maintenance. guys that we can save a few call-out maintenance costs on because every single time you get one of your main contractors to go out of site, you're looking at, you know, $100, $150. And if we've got someone on board full-time, you know, over the long term, it will really assist us with that bottom line.

And they'll be trustworthy. They'll be loyal and honest and not greedy. And I think that would be another good way to go about things moving forward. That's cool. I've been debating the same thing for many years. I mean, should I take on, you know, a maintenance guy on staff, even if it's part-time? You know, I, Florida. with the idea back with resident managers. I've had resident managers in and out of my apartment complex. And, you know, it's been okay. I know for me it comes down to the reason I still having yet. And I've said this on previous shows recently is that I'm just not that good at managing people. And so the idea of having my in-house guys, like I don't think that would solve my problem.

My problem is I'm just not good at managing people. So once I get over that issue, then I think I'd be better. Well, mate, you know, you don't have to be good at managing people. You can find someone that is good at managing people. That is a good point. Once you, you know, once you build your portfolio to a, to a level where it allows you to actually hire someone full time to manage the people. That's what we've done with Josh. You know, with Tim and myself have bumped ourselves out of that role and now Josh is looking after all the contractors and we want to, we want to get these people to work under him. So he pretty much just answers to us. Now, Tim and I have the experience of successes and failures. And, you know, we're willing to share all of our experiences with with Josh. And, you know, it's up to

him to take over that role of managing the contractors and the property managers so we can do other things. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Well, so how do you get people to take you seriously at a young age? I mean, you're a young guy. I know I have that too. I mean, you got facial hair like I do, right? So, you know, it helps a little bit. Well, I've got bold patches, though. So I keep telling, I keep asking my dad, mate, when did you get a freaking beard? Because mine, mine's bowels at the moment. So, so I mean, how do you do that? I mean, how do you get in your, your line of work, how do you get people to give you money to buy a house from you to all that stuff? Like, what are your tips on that? It's not easy, mate. You know, it does take time. I guess here on the

ground is when they see you writing the checks, they start taking you seriously. Okay. That's a good point. Yeah, because they see that you're the guy paying them. They're like, wait a minute, what's going on here? Why is he paying me? And then they're like, okay, he must be the main guy, right? Yeah. I can't really give you an. And, answer there for the other contacts that we've had. I mean, you know, time is bliss. I mean, if, you know, if you spend that time, I guess, and you start doing good things and people, you know, I guess they give you a chance. You do one deal and you do well and then they give you another chance. And then, you know, once that trust is built, I mean, it's not really a big

issue. I haven't really, to be honest with you, I kind of had it in the past. What I've done there is if I believe that someone is, you know, not taking me seriously because of my age or because of my weird accent or because of my good looks. Sorry, I had to throw that one in there, right? There you go. There you go. And my fluro shirt, right? There you go.

I'll just get Tim. I'll just get Tim my business partner to go chat to them and I'll tell him to give him a few slaps in my name too. No, that's a joke. He's a little bit older than me. You know, he's around 44. So he's kind of that, that more mature figure where he's just got that aura of authority. I'm more of a young, groovy, fun, you know, passionate guy.

And if I see that someone is not taking me seriously, I'll just, you know, get Tim to go chat to them and sort them out. So is that him basically acting as the boss or is that him basically saying, hey, if you got an issue with Angelo, get the F out of here. Yeah. We're not going to work with you. You know, he's in charge and, you know, get on the bus or, you know. It depends, mate. It just depends on the situation. You know, we have had a few hiccups here where certain wholesale.

Alice, for instance, did not really want to chat to me for whatever reason, I guess because of my intensity. So, you know, they just talk to Tim and vice versa. And there's a lot of people where personalities just, you know, clash. You don't get along. Well, you know, that's fair enough. Let's just try and stay as mutual and diplomatic as possible. And if you want to work with Tim, work with Tim.

If you want to work with me, work with me. And as Josh asked a question, if not so much, it tells them to get F out of here. But, you know, if I kind of see that I'm not taken seriously, I just, you know, Tim and I discussed it in the back end and I say, Tim, look, I think that these people are looking down on me. They think I'm a young kid. They think I don't know what I'm doing. So I think you should step in and, you know, just continue the relationship with them. So yeah. And I think that's great. Yeah, that's great. I mean, we have, you know, it's a different thing. But, you know, I will have situations where, you know, people who know me know, you know, I'm pretty, pretty nice guy, but, you know, I could be a New Yorker at

times. We actually just got back from a conference and, you know, it's really funny, the dynamic with Brandon and I, where, you know, people think I'm kind of jerky at times. And like, Brandon, you know, I'm just, I'm just intense. I'm just a New Yorker. I'm just, I am who I am, right? And I'm like, all right, this guy, you know, let me, let me send Brandon in to kind of soften them up a little bit. We would call, we would call that a wanker. You're a wanker at times in Australia, right? You know, the word, don't associate a wanker with me, son. Be cool, dude. Be cool.

Come on now. If you wanted to take someone, if you wanted someone to take the edge of your intensity, you should have chosen Brandon, man. He's not that much of a pretty face. He's not pretty, but he's nice. He's nice. He's like a cat. I'm like a cat.

Cats are pretty though. Come on. They are very pretty. I'm really feeling it that day, right? And I'm like, I'm on edge. I'm like, Domino. you've got to come to this meeting with me because you're a pretty face you can take the edge of my intensity.

Yep. That's really funny. All right. I'm putting us back on track here. Enough of my pretty face. They call me a freaking wanker. What the hell is going on? Did you really?

Am I allowed to say that on this show? Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Let me. All right. He's cut off. He's gone.

We got rid of him. You got rid of him. Don't call me a wanker and be on my show. All right. He's back. All right. I'm not going to get rid of him. We like.

We like Angela. All right. All right. Let's get back on base. All right. So we talked about, we talked about how you find properties, how you are financing them, how you fixing them up. How about selling them? When you go to sell them, are you guys, I mean, I'm assuming are you a real estate agent now licensed or no? And do you use an agent then? Okay. So you're not. Okay. I'm not. Team and myself aren't licensed realtors. And the reason for that is if we were, it would limit us to the certain things that we can and cannot do. We do have Josh in the process of right now of getting his realtors license. We're also looking at at literally bringing an in-house broker too.

Pretty much, mate, with the turnkey business, I mean, you can buy properties in your own name and sell them. You don't need any license to do that. So with the selling, you know, once again, I like going back to, you know, leave no stone unturned. You know, we were very active on all social media platforms. It took us over 12 months to establish two sales channels that we currently have. One of them in California, the other one is overseas.

and, you know, these guys pretty much sell all of our inventory at the moment. So, so whatever we supply, whenever it's ready, the property is pretty much sold before we can even get it finished, to be honest with you. With that being said, you know, we're looking at connecting with SEO tech expert to do a little bit of, I guess, build our brand and assist with certain marketing strategies. You know, I really want to create the squeeze pages and see if we can tap into the East Coast and West Coast, maybe see if we can, you know, work with a few. Canadian investors. You know, the East Coast is quite expensive. The West Coast is quite expensive.

Real estate in Canada is expensive, very, very similar to Australia. You know, so there's a lot of investors looking for that cash flow. So that's kind of, we're looking at tapping into those channels, those areas there, and see if we can get any investors on board that would want to buy our turnkey properties. Okay. So let's talk about turnkey a little bit. I mean, I want to, there's a lot of, there's a lot of debate on turnkey. There's a lot of debate on turnkey. right? There was a lot of debate on turkey. This is a forbidden topic, man. I don't even want to get involved with you. No, this is why it's, no, listen, I mean, we got to, we got to cover the verbatim topic here.

So I want to know, I mean, when you say turnkey, first of all, because a lot of people have different definitions, what does that mean to you? Like, do you do the rehab? I mean, assuming you do, do property manager? What does turnkey look like for your company? Turnkey means that you just collect the checks in your account every month when the rent is paid. You being me, somebody who gives money to you? The investor, that's correct. So the investor has to buy a complete turnkey property that needs no work whatsoever. The property is tenanted.

It's got a lease in place with a good tenant that's willing to stay for at least a year to two years. And all they have to do is give me a call or anyone here in the officer call and ask them, how's everything going? Is everything fine? That's pretty much it. hands off, completely hands off. So, I mean, you put a tenant in. The property, presumably, is in great shape. I'm assuming you're doing all the capital improvements before you put a tenant in. Is that correct? That's correct. Everything is done. There's no work that needs to be carried out on the property.

Are you doing like new roofs every time? Are you doing new, I mean, new HVAC? What's, what's going? Depends on what condition the properties. In, for instance, here in Toledo, you know, because we're only focusing on B class here is you'll find that some of the houses have great roofs on them so you don't really need to replace them. But, you know, whatever it takes to make that property a sustainable investment for the investor. So, you know, we look at things that we predict might occur and cost the investor money in the long run, all right? So that's what we will pretty much fix. So as I said, it just depends on on what condition the property is in. I mean, I've bought properties where you literally need to do nothing to them except a bit of plumbing. We just missed out on a great deal that was completely

rehab, believe it or not, and foreclosed on it just needed new plumbing in the basement. It needed absolutely nothing else than that. So yeah, just depends on what condition the property is in. So here's the complaint that people have. Those people who don't know the debate with turnkey. I mean, there's a few things. But the argument is that turnkey providers charge a lot more. I mean, obviously you're paying more. You're paying retail essentially for the deal. You're not going out and finding those $5,000 properties or $20,000 properties and doing the work yourself like I do, right? I do my own work. I find my own properties. Why should I choose or why should somebody maybe choose turnkey over just going out and do it themselves to pay a little bit more for

that or is it more? Well, I guess for the privilege of not having to, you know, put in the work themselves, I never, I never try and sell my model at all. You know what I mean? There's plenty of buyers out there all around the world that, you know, can buy my product. I never sell anything on bigger pockets and you can look through all of my thousand posts, you know, but if someone wants to do it themselves, I encourage them, mate, go out there, do it yourself, you know, spend two years building the relationships and trust and then you might be able to do it yourself. I guess the only thing that you get with turnkey and the big, you know, forbidden zone there is a lot of the turnkey operators, the figures promised on paper, aren't actually the true genuine numbers. You know what I mean? Those numbers aren't genuine. A lot of the numbers don't include, for instance, 20 to 30 percent deduction on maintenance and vacancy. You commented on one of my blogs there regarding that, Brandon, in regards to how much you take off on your bottom line. You know, a lot of things.

That wasn't really your blog. That was more your girlfriend's blog from what you told me. But, you know, okay. Okay, well, she typed it up and I got Josh to help me with the dictation. Likely story. Whatever, here we go. He got me back on the wanker bit, right now? Who's the wanker now, buddy?

Yeah, yeah, I am. Should I take my headphones off? No. Okay. Where were we? Oh, we don't turnkey. Please help. He rudely interrupted.

He did. Can you please see the show, man? You were talking about how a lot of turnkey providers, the numbers don't match what the actuals are. And I see that all the time, right? So, I mean, I actually feel bad. Like, I listed a property a while ago on the marketplace, and I put, like, all the real numbers, right?

And then I felt bad because, like, like, I think nobody expected that to be real. So everyone was, like, deducting other things. I'm like, no, I already included that. Or that includes that. Like, because they expect that. People expect to be trying to get ripped off forever. So, I guess.

Well, that's kind of, yeah, sorry, mate, that's kind of, I guess, on bigger pockets. You know, it's a very forbidden topic. And when I've even taken turnkey off my keyword search, to be honest, I don't even want it to pop up anymore. No, but yeah, look, what I found false numbers on paper or not genuine numbers and those end sale prices are much more than what the actual property value is. But then again, I really can't give you an honest opinion on what the value would be in a C&D class property because it's a roller coaster. The prices are all over the shop. You really don't know. So that goes back to property management.

I guess even if someone does sell your property for a little bit more than what it's worth, but if they can hit those numbers with property management and get you all your money back in four or five years, well, well, happy days, Matt. You know what I mean? You got what you invested back, right? Over the five years, you've still got an investment property, which is hopefully well kept and you can sell it to another investor if it's a C&D class property. If it's a B class property, well, you know, then you can even potentially sell it to an owner

occupy. How does somebody know that the numbers are legit versus not being legit? I mean, that, yeah, as a, you know, there's a new investor. They, they hear about your company and, you know, 20 other companies out there. How do they go about figuring out if you are giving them all the details, all the numbers? Is it just, hey, listen, here are all the numbers. We include vacancy. We include CAPX, you know, 10% for that. We include this. You know, go ahead, shop everybody else. make sure they're including that. Here's our prices. We're going to take care of all that stuff.

It's a great question. And you thought you were probably going to stump me on that question, but you didn't. Okay, so I'll give you an answer. I didn't think anything, man. Just because you're a wanker doesn't mean I don't expect more of you. So pretty much that goes back to that trust and relationship. And that key question that I said, are you willing to build that trust in a relationship with me for six, nine, 12 months before I feel comfortable investing with you or through you or whoever it may be.

I mean, you're really never going to know if those numbers are true unless you actually bite the bullet and invest and buy the property, right? But over time, over six to nine, 12 months, right? And if you can, for instance, get a few other people to speak to who have already bought through that turnkey operator, you can get testimonials from them. They can maybe give you insight in how their investment properties have performing. You know, really, really. estate is not smooth sailing. Issues arise, tenants leave, people lose their job. So it's a bit of a murky water area. You know, it's very hard to know what the exact figures are. You know, I can tell you right now that C&D class properties, whoever's promoting 20% or higher, those numbers are

going to be very, very, very, very difficult to achieve and hit, very difficult just because, you know, you need full-time property management. I always like to kind of do this estimate. If you're doing C&D class properties, you would want your property management company to have one full-time employee looking after 50 units. There's no if, sense or buts. So in order to be able to have a chance of hitting those numbers and the lower class, the area is to hire the volatility. And one year you might get 25% the next year, you might get 0%.

So, yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point. Yeah. Yeah. C&D properties do require. I mean, I have a lot of like, I would say C class properties and they require a whole lot more work than my B class properties do. I mean, definitely do. So I very good point there. And I like

that I like that concept you're talking a lot about. I mean, we kind of came full circle. We talked about this early on about, you know, the people you trust. And if you can find the right people, they can deliver you numbers just as good, if not better than the crappier properties that you might think because, you know, they're the ones helping you hit the numbers, not the property itself. I like that. That's correct. So very cool. Well, all right, before we go on and move on, I want to ask you more question about where do you see yourself going forward like where is your company headed in the future sure well mate we um you know the purpose of this company is bigger than myself um and and and you know i'm going to repeat what i said before i don't do it for myself i don't do it for the money

i would like to add as many new employees to this business as possible and as soon as revenue allows it i'm looking to add someone else you know it's it's there's no better feeling than giving you know what i mean i love writing out burn it says i love helping people out and And, you know, I love to work with people that believe in the same vision. So I want to grow the business to as far as it can get, you know, we're already looking at doing Michigan cash flow. You know, we're looking at starting up Cincinnati, Columbus, you know, having separate offices there.

I mean, sky's the limit, you know, sky really is the limit. And, yeah, I guess I see a higher cash flow. We've got a little bit of a goal there. I've got actually here above my head in the office. I would love to get on that Inc. 5,000 list as the fastest growing company, well, top 5,000 fastest-drawing companies. Nice. I guess that's a good goal for us to have.

I'd love to get on that list. And, you know, we are looking at getting more guys on board, you know, helping them achieve what they want to achieve, helping their families. And, you know, that's what I want to do. At as many people on board as possible, open up as many markets, you know, and help as many investors out as we possibly can to also achieve their goals. You know, win, win, win for everyone. Great.

It's great. Great. I love it. All right. Well, why don't we move on to my favorite segment of the show, called it's time for the fire round oh this is scary no one no one told me about this that's all right we're going to fire some questions at you uh you do hang out in the forum so you probably know a lot of these questions already these are questions that real people have asked

in the forums which people listening can get to at biggerpockets dot com slash forums and we're just going to fire match you and see what you got to say so number one what is the biggest red flag that alerts you to a disaster flipping fix and flip property foundation issues good good I would say the exact same thing. So if you're going to buy a fix and flip and there's foundation, then it means they didn't do their job. Is that what you're saying? Or are you saying, you know,

if there's a property that has foundation issues before you fix and flip it, it's going to be a disaster. I'm saying before you fix it a flip, but I wouldn't even touch it. Yep. Okay, so you don't do foundation stuff. If there's foundation issues,

I mean, I wouldn't even touch it. I just pass it. No matter how, you know, the saying, it doesn't matter how the bad the property is the price can't fix. right? Well, if it's got foundation issues, it doesn't matter how cheap the price is. It still won't fix the foundation issues. In my opinion, I just wouldn't touch it. Fair enough. Fair enough. Would you rent to somebody who's committed a felony in the past? Potentially.

Under what circumstance, yeah. Not sure. I would have to evaluate the circumstances. For instance, right now, we've got someone that's got a felony, but they were happy to let us speak to their current employer that they've been working for for the last two years and their parole officer too. So we're actually considering that at the moment, I'm renting a property to them. So we'll see how we go. We've got to do another podcast next week and I'll tell you. There you go. There you go. Nice. I'm curious. All right. Next one. What tricks have you learned to harden or bulletproof or they call it tenant proof your properties? Like, there are anything that you

do knowing it's going to be a rental that's going to help it last longer? Yes. insulate the roof and walls, lowers the tenant's monthly heating bill, which gets them to pay the rent instead of the gas, and then you'll have a happy tenant that's willing to stay longer. I like that. That's a great tip. That is an interesting, interesting tip. There you go. Ozzy knows a thing or two hey about US property.

There you go, man. Maybe you're not such a wanker. All right. All right. What do you hate and what do you love about managing properties? Hate about managing properties would be when someone gives me a call and they want their light bulb fixed or something miscellaneous as that. What I love about it is collecting the rent on the first of the month. Isn't that freaking obvious? Yeah, I love it.

That's something to love for sure. Cool. All right. Last question of the fire round, I think we're going to ask you this. We might have asked this last week, so forgive me if we did. I know I've been watching this forum throughout on the forums quite a bit, so I can't remember if I asked it, but would you partner with someone who is cheating on their spouse? That's a bit of a seedy question.

What do you mean about that? Partner with someone. No, not like partner like date. I mean, like, if they wanted a joint venture to go together on a deal or they want to wanted to be your business partner, but you knew they were cheating on their spouse. Would you still become a business partner with them? Probably not, because that goes back to my trust and relationship stuff. You know what I mean? If they can do something like that, you know, someone that they should be loving unconditionally, they will then they'll have no problems of, you know, going behind my back

later on down the track and, you know, stuffing me up on a deal or whatever. So, yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. Good answer. Good answer. All right. Final section of the show, we level and we call our All right, these questions we ask every single guest and we're going to see what you've got to say. So number one, what is your favorite real estate book? Favorite real estate book? Wow, does it have to be real estate? We're going to ask you business next, but this one's real estate. Real estate related, I guess you could say.

I can't remember the last real estate book I read. It will probably have to be, you know, rich dad, poor dad by Robert Kiersaki because that's the one that, you know, opened up my eyes to real estate investing. and, you know, really, I believe it got me to where I am today. So, there you go. But then again, I did find out certain things later on that I'm kind of not 100% about with that. So, yeah. Okay. Right on.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Cool. What about business book? Business book. Two of them. Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill and how to win friends and influence people.

Yep. Cool. Those are both good books. Both good. Both good. Good stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Good stuff. Now, what is your, what about hobbies, man? What do you do for fun? Do you still play soccer at all or no? No, man, unfortunately. I'm in the office 100 plus hours a week. This is my hobby, my love. Live, eat, breathe real estate, mate.

I love it. Can't get enough. So that's your hobby. You don't do anything outside of work? Nothing, mate. No word of lie. I'm looking at maybe pulling back a little bit, but I've got another 30 people I need a feed.

And then when they're fed, I might pull back a bit. Do you have like a TV show that you like or something? I mean, there's something, anything? Do you like anything besides yourself and your business? I mean, Joshi, my wank. a friend, TV is a waste of time. Eating is a waste of time. Just pump the job and do their numbers. Real estate, real estate. All the way, guys, real estate. All or nothing guy. All or nothing. Good deal. All right. Final question from me. What do you believe sets apart someone who succeeds

at real estate versus someone who gives up or they fail or they never even get started in the first place? Good question, mate. You have to be willing to keep going when you think you can't go anymore, no matter how hard it gets. And I like what Barbara Cawkeran says in a video that I recently watched where no matter how many times you get hit, you just got to pick yourself up and keep going, you know? And I think that's what it takes to succeed is just keep going. It doesn't matter what other people think of you. Doesn't matter what other people say. It doesn't matter how unintelligent you are. I honestly believe if you push hard enough, you will push that out and out of the way to the district water views. All right.

Great. Great. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Hey, where can people find out more about you? Obviously, you've mentioned bigger pockets a couple of times. You have a website for your company? Yeah, well, they can, if they Google my name, Angelo Romora, I'll pretty much pop up on the first page of Google. That's Angelo with an E. And same thing with Ohio cash flow. If they Google, Ohio cash flow, we'll pop up on the first page of Google and they can find out more about myself. What's the URL? What's the URL for it? URL. Yeah, the link. Your Cashflow.com.

Oh, there you go. Nice and easy. Cool. Awesome, man. Well, listen, it's absolutely been, it's been fun. Yeah. It's been fun. Thanks, guys.

Really, really appreciate having you. And we'll look forward, of course, to seeing you back on the forums. And if anyone has any questions for Angelo, you could hit them up on the forums or on the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 89. Angelo, thanks so much, man. We'll see you around. Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. Thanks for the time.

All right. All right, everybody. that was Angelo Romura of the Bigger Pockets podcast, Show 89. We really want to thank him for being our guest on the show. Lots of fantastic information, lots of great tips. And we really, really do appreciate him giving us some time. So thanks so much. Otherwise, as Angelo said, guys, jump in the forums.

We got a whole lot of listeners here. And building your credibility, building your brand, starting to network and meet people, can't be easier. You literally jump on the forums and start talking to people. set aside a couple minutes a day, a couple minutes a week, whatever it is to do it and make it happen because that's going to help you grow your network and possibly your business, very likely your business. So we definitely recommend that. Otherwise, that's it. Follow us on the various networks, Facebook, LinkedIn Gplus, Twitter, and so on. We're sharing cool stuff there and it's another place to interact with us. And that's it. Get out there, make things happen.

I got nothing else to say is, you know, get out there and make moves, guys. I mean, you know, you can work and work and work and study. and study, but at some point you've got to pull the trigger. And whether that's just getting out and looking at deals or calling people like Angelo suggests, you got to make it happen. So don't just be an academic, get out there and do it. So that's all I got for you. You want to add anything, Brandon? No, no, go out there and be passionate.

That's all I got. Passion. I love it. I love it. All right, guys, this is Josh Dorkin from the Bigger Pockets podcast. Signing on. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio. simplifying real estate for investors large and small.

If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday.

Day and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K, copywriting is by Calicoke content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk. So use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. its LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential, or other damages arising

from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.