BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 91: Getting Started as a Real Estate Wholesaler with Ben Grise

Episode Date: October 9, 2014

Getting your first few real estate deals can be exceptionally tough -- which is why today we wanted to introduce you to an investor who is just wrapping up his first INCREDIBLE year as a wholesaler: Ben Grise.   During his first year, Ben earned more from wholesaling than most Americans earn from their jobs -- all while working a separate full time job, getting married, and having a baby! If you find yourself stressed, overworked and unsure of how to fit everything into your life -- this is a "can't miss" episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast, show 91. You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dorken. host to the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host, Mr. Brandon Turner. What is going on,

Brandon? Oh, not a whole lot going on here, Josh. Just getting ready for the autumn season. Oh, the autumn season. I often prepare for the autumn season myself. What are you doing to prepare? I'm like, I don't know, doing like the yard work that has to get done and all that, you know, maintenance on the property. He's got to make sure everything's buttoned up tight and that there's no roof leaks because we're going, we don't get snow, right? We get rain. So everything's got to be sealed up good. And yeah, so all those landlords out there, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I button up my rough as well. Never possible. I don't even know what that means. I didn't know what you were saying either. Roof. Oh, there you go. There you go. Do I have an accent?

I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, something like that. Cool, cool. Well, listen, things are good. Busy here, bigger pockets. Things are crazy. We're picking up new family members.

New folks are coming on every day to the team. And we've got a really kind of cool announcement. October 22nd is the Bigger Pockets 10-year anniversary. And it's a very big to do, at least for me, emotionally. I'm really emotional. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're excited about it. And for the 10-year anniversary, Brandon's going to be in town.

and we are doing a 10-year celebration, a party. And where is town? Where is town, Josh? Town is here in Denver. Yeah, town is here in Denver. Yes, yes. So we're doing a party. And so if you're in town, if you're here in Denver and you are interested in attending our little get-together,

our networking event slash party for BiggerPockets' 10-year anniversary, reserve your spot at biggerpockets.com slash 10 years. That's biggerpockets.com slash 10 years. I hear there's going to be free alcohol. Yeah, Brandon, you're trying to shut us down. Whoa, easy tiger. Easy tiger. This is a classy party where people dress nice.

I'm not saying it's not a BYOB yet, right? This is definitely not a BYOB. Josh has a, let's get to the next topic. All right, today's show. Today's show is actually going to be really, really awesome for those people out there who are currently working a full-time job and trying to figure out how to fit everything into their life. So we're going to talk to a guy today who's actually a wholesaler. But even if you're not in a wholesaling, Flipper, landlords, whatever, there's so much advice in here about,

you know, automating and about, you know, setting systems up and how to fit all those things in. So it's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, we talk to the best way to find deals regardless of who you are. If you're, yeah, if you're struggling with your day job, we'll trying to get things done. It's really, really a good show. And towards the end of the show, our guest, Ben, actually shares with us five different tools that he uses to manage his deal flow. And guys, this stuff is really, really awesome. You're really going to love it.

But before we get into it, and we do apologize for the long opening, we just got a lot of stuff today. Let's hit up today's quick tip. Today's quick tip is, you know what, I will take this one. Take it. All right, today's quick tip is you can pre-order the book on investing with real estate. You can pre-order the book on investing in real estate with no and low money down at biggerpockets.com slash no money. That is Brandon Turner's book on investing. And it's amazing, really, really good.

And so this is going on sale pretty soon. and pre-order it by going to biggerpockets.com slash no money. So definitely, definitely get your name on the list so you can get this thing in your pockets. Yeah, we've been talking about this thing for like six months now. It's been like 99% done for like six months. So it's finally like 99.999% ready to be launched. So anyway, if you're listening in the future, you can go to that same link, biggerpockets.com slash no money and you will get to the page. So with that, let's move on to today's pro tip. So hey, Josh, for today's pro tip, let me ask you. a question, how many members are there on bigger pockets right now? Oh, somewhere between 200 and

210,000, I believe. Nice. Nice. Okay, so here's my thing. With 200,000 people, it's kind of hard to know, to stand out from the crowd, right? So our pro tip today is there is a really cool pro benefit that we just introduced this week that pro benif, that pros can use. And that is the ability to upload a video to your profile. If you don't know what that means, there's a thing called video. like moving pictures. You can embed them on like YouTube and then you can go and put them on your BiggerPockets profile if you are a pro member. If you want to check it out, just go to my profile or go to biggerpockets.com slash pro video and there's a tutorial right there. So check it out. That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. And this is this video thing is really, really good for building

your credibility, for letting people know that you're not just a bot or just some fake profile of somebody who's pretending to be something. It gives you a chance to talk about who you are, your background is, your wants, your needs, your haves, and we definitely encourage it. I know since we put it up for Brandon and his profile, people are shown up on that thing like crazy and he's been getting all these new private messages. And so definitely, definitely worth checking out. Let's get into this. Today's guest is Ben Grease.

Ben is a professional poker player turned real estate wholesaler in the Indianapolis market. And he's really crushing it here in his first year as a wholesaler. He's got some really great insight into using several cool technologies to automate a whole lot of things. And you know what? It's a great story. He's a good guy. And, you know, he's not trying to build immense, immense wealth. He's just trying to use real estate as a means to an end to build some extra side cash and loves his job and wants to keep doing it. So for those of you who don't want to quit your job, who just are looking for other ways to build your cash pile, cash pile. then something happened. Got a pile of manure over there. Yeah.

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Carefully consider the investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses of the Fundrise Flagship Fund before investing. This and other information can be found in the fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash flagship. This is a paid advertisement. Do you ever notice how every passive investment somehow turns into a very active lifestyle, active spreadsheets, active phone calls, active stress? Here's a better question.

What if you could buy brand-new construction homes, 10% below market value, and the best markets across the country without making real estate your second job. That's exactly what rent to retirement does. They're a full service, turnkey investment company handling everything for you. In some cases, investors get 50 to 75% of our down payment back at closing, plus interest rates as low as 3.75%. They've partnered with BiggerPockets for over a decade, helping thousands invest smarter. If you want to do the same, visit BiggerPockets.com slash retirement to learn more. Let's bring him on. Ben, Welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you here. It's a pleasure being here.

Feel privileged and honored. I'm a little nervous. A little nervous. Don't be nervous. Josh is a little scary sometimes, but just pretend he's not there and you'll be fine. I'm just angry. You're an angry man. An angry shortman.

He is tough on me, right? Wait, did you just call me an angry short man? I don't know what you're talking about. This show is not about you, Josh Dorkin. We're talking with Ben today. Oh, my goodness. Ben, Ben, Ben. All right, man. Let's get to you, Ben.

another show where I get ripped on, clearly. Clearly. So you're a real estate investor in Indianapolis, correct? Yes. All right. Real estate wholesaler. I know that sometimes people have different definitions. Yes.

But yes. Okay. So you are a wholesaler. You do not actually buy property to hold onto yourself. You buy them and turn them over to somebody else. Yeah? Currently, yes. So maybe actually, this is probably a good way to start.

is maybe you can give us your definition of exactly what a wholesaler is. I mean, because some people listen, we haven't done a wholesaling show in quite a while. Yeah. So people who are just joining the podcast, new listeners, what is wholesaling to you? Wholeselling to me involves, you have to be a great marketer. And so I market for motivated sellers or distressed properties. and I speak with those sellers. I get build rapport with those sellers.

Try and find or identify what their problem is when selling and provide a solution to that problem. And a lot of times that's cash, a fast sale, cash, they can't normally sell their property traditionally, like with a realtor. And so I get that property under contract and then I assign my interest in the contract to an end buyer or a cash buyer. Gotcha.

Okay. So plain and simple, a wholesale deal is one where you're putting this thing under contract and you're assigning it to somebody else for a higher price and you're making the difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for. Yes? Exactly. Perfect. So if I get the property under contract for $50,000 and I have a cash buyer,

who wants to buy the property for 55,000, I make that $5,000 spread in the property. Perfect, perfect. Cool. So what did you do before real estate? I mean, what was your career? I know you've got some interesting stuff that I think you kind of do on the side now. Sure. Tell us your story.

Well, I was first exposed to real estate back in after graduating Ball State in 2007. I moved out to Phoenix and I met a guy who was probably about three years older than me and he was living in his apartment and working out of his apartment in Tempe, Arizona, which is a big college town. And he was living the life. And, you know, I asked him what did he do? And he, he wholesale real estate out in Phoenix area back in 2007. And he had a number of, he had hundreds of bandit signs. I didn't know what they were at the time, but now I know that they were bandit signs in his apartment. And that's how I was exposed to real estate. And he tried to encourage me to get started doing it. But I didn't have the money. I didn't think I had the money or time

needed to get started in real estate. But I tell that story because that's kind of like a catalyst of how I got started a year ago. In between 2007 and a year ago, I finished grad school. And And I took a position as an electronic medical record consultant. And if you don't know what that is, that is somebody, me specifically in electronic medical records, I train the nurses and the doctors how to chart on the medical system or the medical record chart data for their patients. So I took a job doing that. And that's a consulting gig. And so I would have a contract for six months and then I would be off contract.

I was having to travel all over the country. I've actually been to Seattle where Brandon is located, love Seattle. Nice. And all in between doing those contracts, I was also playing poker semi-professionally, professionally, and that was providing a good income. Nice. Nice. So can you read Brandon right now?

What's he thinking? Not sure. Yeah, nor is he. You can't read me because I got like the Turner Stare, which is not as cool as a Steinbe. Stair. Jay Scott's got his Steinhorn stare, but I got the Turner Stair. You can't read it. Nice. See that? Awesome. Awesome. Unreadable. So, poker.

You're unreadable because there's really not a lot moving around in there, but you know, we'll get back to Ben here. Thanks, thanks. All right, so anyway, you did semi-professional and professional poker just out of curiosity, were you ever, like, on TV or anything cool like that? Yeah, a few times. I've been on national

television, mostly on, I don't know if you guys have Comcast Sports it's all over the country or Fox Sports Midwest or Fox Sports Channel network of channels I've been on TV for a few final tables that I've made. Wouldn't that infer that poker is a sport? Poker is a sport. It is a competition. Oh, man.

Oh, man. It's chess a sport? It's chess a sport. Oh, man. We're not going to get into that debate. We'll save it for another day. I just lost half our audience. No.

All right. So interesting. You're a fascinating guy. You got all this cool stuff going on. You get into real estate. How did it begin? You know, you had the bandit signed guy. What was the first, you know, your first steps as kind of getting going yourself? Well, like I said, being friends with that guy, his name was Art. And I've never been able to contact him. So Art, if you're out there listening to Phoenix, he was kicking butt wholesaling in Phoenix. I, you know, I never. been able to reach him since then, but that was kind of a catalyst. I was out, my wife and I had just, well, my fiance at the time, we had just bought a house and I was at Lowe's shopping for things for the house and things around the house. And I came out to my car and there was a business card on my windshield for ML, a multi-level marketing real estate education program. And it was like, at the time I was searching for, I was trying to diversify, I guess you could say, my income, realizing I was getting older. If you watch the World Series of poker, you'll see even this year,

all of the players at the table are young. It's kind of like any other sporting event. As you age, you're not as competitive as it. That's a little bit of an exaggeration. Are you saying old guys or bad at poker? I'm not saying they're all bad, but. guys like Josh are bad at poker. He just put a target on his head for anybody who actually listens to the show who plays poker. But, you know, it's all good. You know. Well, your mind has to be sharp when you're playing poker.

I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. And so I, you know, I'm always looking towards the future long term. Sure. And I'm saying, okay, I may not be able to compete at the level I'm competing at now. And a lot of the young guys are do the best at playing poker. I need to, and I'm not wanting to travel as an EMR consultant.

For that job, I was having to travel and be out of town. I was about to marry my wife. I'm wanting to start a family. So I wanted to provide a source of income that would enable me to stay home. So I got that business card on my car. And I call the number and inquire about it. and I Google it and Google about the program and there's a forum post on bigger pockets. That's how I discovered bigger pockets and read their reviews on the forum post

and discovered that it was going to cost me about $20,000 to enroll in this education program. Education. Yes, and if I was able to get other people to enroll, I would get bonuses. and I was looking to make money, not spend more money. And that's why I discovered bigger pockets and just ran with it, started listening to every podcast, participating in the forum discussions, reading the blog articles. And I've listened to every podcast.

So I'm sorry. I just ran with it. So, okay, I mean, I had no, I legit. I legitimately had no idea that you're like a true tried, another BP, like start to finish success story. So that's, that's, that's, that's pretty awesome. That's pretty awesome. All right. I do want to, I always want to point out something before we move on from that.

I just want to say, like, there's a lot of, one thing I thought was just awesome, you said, you know, there's a lot of people listening to this show right now who, you know, they're not professional poker players, but they're in the same, they have the same problem is if you were to look five or ten years down the road at your job, that a lot of people can't have the same job five, 10, 15 years from now. I mean, industries are changing constantly, you know, robots are taking over. I mean, like, in, I mean, like, you know what I mean, like, you know what I mean, like certain jobs are getting outsourced to machines.

I have to see if I can find a robot. A robot. I was going to do a robot voice, but I won't do it. I won't pain you all with that. But no, like, you know what I mean? Like, people are, that's a common problem. People are going through. Like, that their, you know, lives are changing.

So I like the fact that you said that, you know, you looked forward and thought that, you know, in the future, 5, 10, 15 years from now, you won't be able to do the same thing. So why not start planning today for what you're going to do later? So I just want to commend you for that. Yeah. Yeah, and it wasn't only the poker thing. It was the consulting thing, too. I was having to, you know, wanting to start a family.

It's not fair to my wife or my, at the time would be my future child. I have a two-month-old now for me to be in Seattle week after week for months on end. And so I was looking for a way to provide an income without me having to travel as much. Gotcha. So why wholesaling? I mean, why did that come up? Little risk involved with wholesaling. You don't need to use any of your own money or little money. You need little money. There are ways to get started without money. But for me, I took the approach where I could invest a little money into marketing, $1,000 and send out hundreds of letters to absentee owners and start generating deals. So there was a little money. little money. I didn't need to put a $20,000 down payment on a house to get started investing

in real estate. Instead of investing $20,000 into a down payment on the house, I could get started investing in marketing for $1,000. So little risk involved. And it really fits to be a good wholesaler. You need to be able to talk with sellers. You need to be able to build rapport with sellers. and something I didn't touch on earlier, I briefly worked as a mortgage banker back in 2007 for about a month or two. Gotcha. And I was on the phone nonstop right before the market crash. And I was still refinancing houses.

So you have to be able to fit my strengths as being able to build rapport with homeowners and build those relationships and earn their trust. Nice. Nice. No, that's great. Well, so we want to talk more about wholesaling, but let's kind of get to your first deal and then we'll kind of jump back to it. So tell us about, you know, you started doing these mailings. How did that go?

And then what was the resulting first deal? Yeah. So I took action just simply by sending letters, reading the forum post. I think I started a forum discussion, $5,000 direct mail marketing. budget and what would you guys do, you know, putting that out there to some of the other members of the bigger pockets community. And so I took their advice, you know, networked, met with Jerry Puckett. He helped me start my direct mail marketing campaign. I sent those letters out there and the call started coming in. And my first call was from a doctor who worked at a local

hospital here in Indianapolis. So and at the time I was working. I was working as an electronic medical record trainer training the doctors. And so I instantly was able to build rapport with that doctor and you know, he's working at the same hospital that I'm working at. Oh nice. We have something in common. He trusts me. And so built that rapport and went and took a look at his house and I went by myself and I had no clue what I was doing. My mentor still makes fun of me today and says, you know, you have no clue what you're doing, but you just do it. And that's what I did. I just did. I just sent the letters. I'm the type of person, which you'll learn later. I don't learn by reading. I learn by doing. Ready fire aim. And so, yeah, exactly. And so I just went for it. I went and looked at

house and it was mold, water damage. It was horrible. It was in disarray. And he wasn't living there, right? I mean, this was a- It was vacant. It was vacant. It was his mom's house. He had been put into, or she had recently passed away. And so he, it was his mother's house. And he wasn't living in the house. The house had been vacant for three years, a water main. pipe bursts, tons of water damage, mold. And I almost completely wrote it off as like, you know, me not having hardly any experience. I almost wrote it off as, oh, nobody's going to buy this property.

And through poker, I had meant a guy who has now become my mentor, who was flipping three, four houses a month in Indianapolis. So I went to him instead of giving up on the property, I went to him thinking, oh, there's no chance anybody's going to buy this property. I went to him and he was kind enough to go out there and look at the property with me and tell me the repairs that it needed. And he told me what he would pay me for the house. And so from there, I went back to the seller and made my offer. So what did those numbers look like? Well, he had repair estimates.

No, I mean, just, you know, what did he say he'd pay you? And what did you decide to go to the seller with? Well, he told me he would pay me $19,000. Okay. And I, you know, still learning. I wanted to make $10,000. the deal. Because I mean, the property was worth a lot more than 19,000. I think it had an ARV of around 150,000. Wow. Yes, yes, but it needed a lot of work. And so I wanted to make 10,000.

I made a mistake. This is the first offer I'm ever going, I was ever making at the time. This is the first offer I made on the house. I went back to the homeowner and I meant to offer. for nine, but I offered 12. I have no idea why. And he immediately accepted. He said, sure, that'll be, that'll work. Yeah. Wow. And he accepted my $12,000 offer and I wholesaleed it to the cash buyer, who I had, who is now my mentor that I had met through poker. And I wholesale it to him and sold it to him for 19. Okay. So you talk to the doc. You say, doc, 12K, you know, kicking yourself in the foot for, for, you know, losing a possible three grand there. You've now got a signed contract with this person.

For those new folks listening to the show who don't really know the process, what happens next? You've got a contract from him. He signed it. How do you now bring it? And you have an agreement with this other guy who's going to pay you 19, right? So $7,000 difference. How do you close on the property?

What do you do? Well, I use an assignment contract and assign my interest in the property to my cash buyer. Okay. So I'm assuming then when you made the original offer to the, or made the offer to the homeowner, you did like, you know, Ben and or assigns, correct? Exactly. Exactly. All of my purchase agreements have that disclosure in there that I'm going to be profiting. I disclose everything to all of my sellers. you know, I am, you know, I don't do this as a hobby. I do this to make money. And so I have to make money one way or another, whether it be through holding the property as long-term rental, whether it be me fixing the property and flipping it, or whether it be me be assigning the contract to a cash investor for a profit. And for those people who are confused by the assigning thing, because I know I was

really confused for a long time until I figured out what that is. Another way to look at that is, I mean, it's just like saying, me, Brandon, or whoever I choose. choose is going to buy this property. I mean, that's essentially what the phrase and or assigns means. And, you know, assigning something obviously means to, I don't know, give it over or sell it over. So you're Brandon and or whoever I choose is going to buy this property. And then whoever I choose could be Joshua Dorkin right there. And then I would do the assignment paperwork. And then that just basically says Brandon is assigning it to Josh. That way legally it still all makes sense, right? it's and or assigns it's and or Josh.

He's the assigns. Yeah. Yeah. So how does that work though? I mean, all right. You have the contract. You can now and or assigns it. Proper English.

Way to go. And or assign it to me. So you're assigning this contract to me. Where do you assign it to me? Do you literally just say, you know, you and I shook hands and say you're going to give it to me. So now you literally in front of me write my name on the contract. Hand it to me and it's over?

Or is there more of a formal process? us to do it at a closing table. How does all that work? When do you get paid? Got to walk us through the finer details here. Well, I get the purchase agreement with the seller for an agreed upon price disclosing that I am either I am profiting through either assigning, flipping or holding myself. Right. And then, Josh, are you asking? I literally, I want, I want, you know, pretend I know nothing about this whole thing, right? I, you know, I'm sitting here thinking, okay, cool. So you now have this sign contract. You got a copy. He's got a copy. The seller, right? You're holding on to this contract. And you, you know, again, let's just change it to Brandon. Brandon's the guy who's the cash buyer, money man over there. Cash buyer who's going to buy this property from from you the wholesaler, right? So Brandon, you know, says, hey, I'm going to give you $19,000. You have a contract for $12,000. What do you do with that? How do you close on the deal? And when do you get paid? That's what I want to know. So does Brandon then sign the same contract? You put his name on it. He then signs that contract. You can do it in your office at your house or do you have to go to a closing table? Is there another piece of paper that kind of goes into this whole thing? And do you get paid immediately by Brandon or does the seller get paid by Brandon? How does the whole transaction take place, the finalized transaction?

Well, what happens is I, when I'm assigning these properties to my cash buyers, I get my purchase agreement with my seller and I pay an earnest money deposit on the property. Okay. And I open up title and escrow with my title company with the contract between me and my seller. Yep. Then from there, I may have, I've closed properties in one week, closed on properties in one week or it's taken, taken, in 30 days or longer. I've had one property that took, it was held up in closing for literally seven months. Wow.

Yeah. But so I take that, I have my contract with my seller and then I start marketing the property to my cash buyers. And, you know, my cash buyers, I have a good relationship with. But my cash buyer is sort of, I mean, he is my mentor. So I just give him a call up and I say, hey, I have this property at this price. Are you interested? He says, yes, he makes me in my offer or he makes a counteroffer or he accepts my offer.

And then I assign, I use an assignment contract and assign that contract for the purchase agreement. I assign that purchase agreement, assign that my interest in the property to my. cash buyer and then I send that signed contract over to the title agent. Okay. And then I get paid at the closing table. Gotcha. So you have purchase agreement is one piece of paper, one document signed between you and the seller.

And then there's an assignment contract, which is another piece of paper, which is signed between you and the buyer. Correct. Okay. You've opened up escrow with the seller and this document is in escrow and title escrow's hands. You now have this second document, which now after signatures between you and the other individual, the cash buyer, both of you guys get that over to escrow agent, they now have it. And then the closing takes place, wherever it takes place. You don't need to show up at

closing, correct? No, I don't. There are some closings I have never showed up for. there are closings that I have showed up for. This just really depends. I closed one deal where I never meant the seller face-to-face. She was in Bloomington, which is about two hours south, two-hour south of Indianapolis, and we never meant face-to-face. And the closing took place in her town so that she didn't have to drive to Indianapolis. Gotcha, gotcha.

So the closing happens whenever it's designated. the buyer, the cash buyer and the seller, you know, basically everybody kind of comes together and you get a check for the difference and title escrow figures all that out. And that's a wrap. Yeah, I get my check from the title company. Cool. Now, just to throw some confusion in here, the assignment is not the only way to close these and a lot of times you can't use assignments, right? Because certain, like, if you're trying to buy from a bank, a bank doesn't allow and or assigns to be written in the contract typically. Have you ever done what's called like a double closing or a simultaneous closing?

No, there is a lot of discussion on the bigger pockets forums about double closings and whether or not they are needed. I believe that, you know, if you do a good enough job, building rapport with your sellers earning their trust, solving a problem for them, you know, you have to be able to solve a problem. It has to be a win for them. Not only for you or your cash buyer, it has to be a win for them. You do a good enough job disclosing everything. You know, hey, I, like I said, I don't do this as a hobby. I do this for an income for me and my family. I need to be able to make money.

I'm an investor. I need to be able to make money. You disclose that to them. You earn their trust. You solve their problem. You get them the house sold fast, you know, get rid of the headache. them or get them the money they need. They they, I haven't had encountered any sellers who worry about how much money I am making or any of my cash buyers have a good relationship with.

And I only have two or three cash buyers. You don't need a huge buyers list. At least I don't, I don't need one here in Indianapolis, but they don't care how much money I make. They just want me to bring them good deals and the sellers just want me to solve their problem and get them the money that they want. I think it's interesting that you say that, you know, they don't care how much you make because they know that you're solving their problem. That is the, the buyer. You know, as long as they can get some profit out of the deal, it's in their interest to ensure that you're happy so you can continue to source deals for them, right? And maybe not even profit,

as long as you can solve their problem is, I think, the key, right? Well, I was talking about the buyer. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then from the seller's perspective, it's, it's, it's, the same thing. They just want to get the heck out. And as long as you're not completely unreasonable and charging a thousand bucks for a property that probably should have gotten rid of for nine or 12, then they're going to be happy. And you know, you're a reasonable person. You explain how and, you know, you disclose what you do and how you do it. Then, you know, that trust factor comes into play. Because I think a lot of people where they fail is they try to be, you know, there are a lot of people who try to do things underhanded and think that they have to, you know,

be a little less than transparent in what they're doing. And I think that's where a lot of the bad name comes in on wholesaling as well is, you know, if you're clear and say, hey, this is what I do, this is how we do it, you know, I see no issue whatsoever. Yeah. I mean, on my website, I have a post and my blog, it's an advice for sellers. And it says, what do cash, buyers do with the property after we buy that. After we buy your property, what do we do with your property? And it explains we either wholesale it. We either hold it or we either flip it. That's a cool idea. I don't have that on mine, but I should add that to my buyers, like my, we buy, you know, properties kind of site. Yeah. Yeah, kind of an explanation. Yeah, transparent.

You're being transparent. I love that. I love that. I think, I mean, I really like the way you explained it also when you said, you know, you explained to them, I got to make money from me and my family. Like, I like the idea of like, because you're, I mean, you're being 100% on. I mean, honest, nobody's mad at Home Depot because they charge double what they bought it from China for, you know, for a plunger. Like, nobody's mad at Home Depot for that. Like, that, they serve a purpose and it's a very valuable one because I'm not going to fly to China to go buy a plunger. And so by just, I mean, like a wholesaler has a very valuable role in the real estate process if it's done correctly. where it's not done correctly is you go to your buddy and you're like, hey, I got this property

under contract when it's worth, like you said, 19,000 he'd pay for it. I got it under contract and I'll sell it to you for, you know, 85,000 and then he just lasts at you. Or you don't even have under contract period. You just went and found it on the MLS and then told him that. That's the worst. Yeah, it was on the MLS for 50. You told him you'll get to him from 85 and it's worth 19. I mean, there are a lot of that. Yeah, there are a lot of people. There are some people, I get deal sent to me that are on the MLS. And so. That's crazy.

What is your advice? I mean, do you have any good advice for people who are just starting out that maybe, you know, went to a seminar or saw something online that they are really excited about wholesaling now? I mean, what advice do you give them so they don't turn out like that? So they turn out a little more like you? Be transparent with them. Build rapport with them.

Be honest with them. if you can't solve a problem, there's been sellers who have, you know, kind of, they just don't want to work with a realtor. And I say, well, you know, to be honest, it's in your best interest to work with a realtor. Like there's no need. You're going to make more money if you sell traditionally with a realtor. So my best advice for those wanting to get started wholesaling is to, just be transparent with your sellers. Find, find out what their problem is. For some people, it's not even about the money whatsoever. It has nothing to do with the money. Figure out what

that pain point is for them and target that. For my first deal, the doctor wasn't worried about the money. He was worried about a house that had been sitting vacant for three years that had been, nothing was being done with it. It was a headache. He was getting contacted by. He was worried. by the county. He just wanted to get rid of the headache regardless of how much money he sold, how much money he sold the property for. So just find that pain point with the sellers and figure out if you can solve a problem for them. Yeah. And to that, if they don't have a pain point, they're not going to sell it to you, right? I mean, that's kind of the bottom line. If they don't have a pain point, they're going to probably sell it retail. They're going to probably put it on the

MLS. They're going to probably go through a realtor. And, you know, it is what it is. Which is why, you know, I think it's so funny when people come out there, well, come out and just, you know, say that investors are taking advantage of folks. You know, the folks that are, you know, unloading properties for pennies or nickels or dimes or quarters on the dollar are doing it for a reason. They're doing it because the traditional process of going through a real estate agent and listing the property on the MLS and waiting 30, you know, 45-day escrows doesn't work for them. It's not going to work for them. There's a reason for it.

You know, somebody's in the hospital. You know, the property's just, you know, going down fast for whatever reason. They want to get out from under it. So, you know, again, as long as you're being transparent, not taking advantage of these people, working with them, talking to them, finding out why it is that they want to get rid of this thing, you know, you're helping them out. You're helping them out. So, yeah, to all the folks who might be listening, thinking, well, you know, I don't know, I think investors can be kind of shady. There might be some. And, you know, that's unfortunate. And I'd say the vast

majority of folks aren't that way. And there is a legitimate reason why this works. If it didn't work, you know, people aren't going to accept an offer on a property. If they don't find that to be they're a doable option. So, I don't know. And, you know, for wholesalers getting a bad rap, there's another aspect of wholesaling. Imagine all of the properties in any community that would still be vacant and squatters be staying in there and, you know, vandalism taking place in all these communities around cities all over. the United States if wholesalers weren't out there finding these properties and selling them

and in turn getting the communities revitalized. Yeah. I look around my neighborhood. I look at properties that wholesalers have come in, picked up and turned over. And I know for a fact that those properties would have sat many, many, many times longer with weeds and, you know, possible vagrants in there, all sorts of problems. if not for the wholesalers coming in. And so they're helping everybody.

So I do think it's a good thing. Now, there are bad things too, right? I mean, some folks do things unethically. We've talked about that. You know, I think using things like bandit signs illegally and other things that kind of are negative towards investors and the community are certainly a problem, but they serve a good role.

All right. So how many deals have you done totaled now? five going on six so five going on six so you're you're pretty new at this when was that first one like how long have you been doing this I don't mean well the first one is the one that that in closing for seven months the seller was yes I took action in August of last year started to put together my direct so took action a year ago putting together my direct mail campaign and then sent the letters and took me about a month, month and a half to get that property my first deal under

contract after the call started coming in. And my cash buyer was ready to close. My seller was, you know, he was an old school guy. He liked to work, do everything through his attorney. And so, which is fine. We worked with them. The attorney, I don't know what happened. I don't know exactly there was a tax issue and the attorney was busy and he he didn't he wasn't efficient on getting getting to the property and taking care of his client's needs as fast as he should have should have been so that deal set for for seven months okay wow okay wow so that's still yeah it's only been a i was going to say it's only been a year and you've done five going on six that's that's good i mean for most wholesalers that want to get in the wholesaling never do their first deal or they might

do one. Yeah. I think that's awesome that you've done that many in just your first year. And that's while working, while planning a wedding, while playing poker, traveling to play poker, and doing the EMR consulting, having a few contracts in there working full-time. And you just had a baby, you said, right, two months ago? And I just had a baby two months ago. Yeah. You're not too busy, man. You're not too busy. No. So how do you do that? I mean, do you have any tips for people? A lot of people listen to this show have full-time jobs or they work a lot, they've got a kid, they've got families to deal with. How do you balance that all? Time management is important and making, setting priorities. I know that's kind of vague.

I mean, I didn't get into this saying, hey, in my first year wholesaling, I'm going to build a massive wholesaling business and I'm going to quit my job and quit. playing poker and this is what I'm going to do. That wasn't, I just wanted to provide some extra income for me and my family. I wasn't. So I didn't necessarily need to commit to 40 hours a week wholesaling properties. I was comfortable closing one deal every other month, every few months. Nice. So recently really started putting some systems in place to deal with the leads that are coming in. And so I hate Microsoft Excel spreadsheets. And so I'm just not. They're not one of our sponsors. It's okay. Yeah, I don't work well with

those. And so started to really put some systems in place to have my calls that come in automatically input into my CRM. So I use POTO. Podio. We've tried that, by the way. So I have a workspace built where every time in Podio, they have, it's organized by workspaces, and I have a seller's lead app in my podium

where every time somebody calls, every time a seller calls, I get a text message, and that lead also gets input into my Podio workspace with the seller's phone number so that I don't have to manually enter that information into an Excel spreadsheet. Okay. So, you know, I'm going to challenge you on something here. You write for the Bigger Pockets blog, right? Sure. Yeah. Yes, I do. What I would love for you to do if you'd be up for it, because I think we've talked about

this before with other people using kind of a CRM to organize. I'm going to ask you to write a post on how you use Podio and you don't have to use your actual properties, but maybe like kind of do some hypotheticals and just show kind of how you're doing it. Because I think a lot of people would be really interested in the systemization of the business, of a business. And I think it'd be incredibly valuable to people to kind of show how you're doing it. So if you'd be up for it, challenge. I already, I mean, I already have it written. I already, I just in that it's, there's already a draft written about that how I use Podio.

Seven software software tools that I use to streamline my wholesaling my wholesaling business or my lead management. That's going to be the title of it. But I also use Vumber, which is a voice

service. And so I have a different, yeah, Vumber, V as in Victor, U, M as in max, B as in boy, ER, Bumber. where I have multiple phone numbers for different marketing campaigns, whether it be through my website, that has a different phone number. Bumber gives me a phone number for my direct mail campaign.

I've also partnered with somebody I met on Bigger Pockets. He drives around town, does driving for dollars, which is where he drives around town and he identifies vacant properties. We have a specific phone number for that campaign. So that we know when a call comes in, where that lead is coming from so that we don't have to take the time to ask sellers we know. Yeah. That is very smart.

Okay. So Podio and Vumber. Another one is it does it. It does it. It does it is another software application that I use. It takes my data in Podio and with the click of one button. So if I say send an offer letter, click on yes in Podio. It does, it takes that data in each seller leads.

So seller address, seller name, seller city, seller state, seller zip code, and creates a web merge or a document automatically for me, automatically creates a letter with a click of a button with specific seller data. So that don't have to manually write those letters out. It automatically creates a letter and that letter automatically with the service, I'm not really that technical, but I don't know exactly how it all works, but it does it, sends that data to web merge, which creates a document, and that web merge sends that letter to a mailing service automatically, and that mailing service is called Lobb, L-O-B, and they automatically send

the letter for me, pay for postage, it just comes out of my checking account. And so it's all streamlined. Nice. That's awesome. That's awesome. I was going to say, you know, obviously people listening to this, they're probably in their car or whatever.

They didn't have time to actually write down everything here. So what I'm going to actually do is for this podcast when it comes out, I'll actually put a link on the show notes to a page where people can download kind of a step-by-step of what you just explained. We'll actually write it out and put it into a nice PDF. People can print it out hanging on their bulletin board. So just head over to biggerpockets.com slash show 91. And I will have a link to it there because I think that's going to be extremely helpful. And if we get that blog post of yours out before, we'll get that thrown in there as well.

And so, yeah, awesome. Awesome. I love that stuff. And I think that kind of automation stuff is a good way to help that work-life balance we talked about is you don't have to sit there and enter Excel information and all that stuff. I think that's excellent. So well done. For decades, real estate has been a cornerstone of the world's, largest portfolios. But it's also historically been sort of complex, time-consuming, and expensive.

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That's Dominion Financial. Check them out at biggerpockets.com slash dominion. Again, that's biggerpockets.com slash dominion. Cool. I'm wondering also then, you said when you get, get like a voice, like when you get a call, it puts the number in. Does that mean like, are you answering your phone or is it going to your voicemail? How does that side of things work? I have it built so that when I receive a call, it goes directly to voicemail, except for my

website leads. Okay. Or I, I like the website leads. I like to answer, you know, they're inquiring at that time. You want to get on those leads right away. Yeah. So my direct mail leads, I send directly to voicemail, my website leads, I can answer directly. So it sends them directly to voicemail. And then Vumber emails me and says, you have a lead. And I have it built so that email automatically inputs the seller data with the seller's phone number into Podio or my CRM. Yeah, that's so cool. That's awesome.

Yeah, that's really cool. I use Zapier. Go ahead. Go ahead. It's another service. ZAPI-E-R, Zapier is another service I use where I receive a text message every time I have a lead come in. Okay, cool. Because they're going directly to voicemail.

So I receive a text so that I know with the seller's phone number. If I'm in the mood or if I have the time to take calls. I have the phone number right there and a text message. I can just click on it and call the seller up. This is awesome, man. It really is cool hearing

the tools that you're using to kind of do this automation as Brandon was talking about. And I also love that, you know, you're not here to try and build this monster wholesaling business. You're really trying to just build something for some side income,

which is great. You know, I think a lot of our interviewees on the podcast, podcast, you know, their goal is to quit. Their goal is to, you know, just go, you know, 100% for real estate. And so it's kind of cool to hear yet, you know, there is a middle ground, right? Yeah, I mean, I enjoy, sorry to interrupt, Josh. That's okay. I do it all the time. Sorry, sorry, before I forget. I enjoy the job I do working with the doctors and nurses, electronic medical record training. I enjoy playing poker. It provides good income. I'm a competitive

person, that's an outlet for me, being able to compete. I enjoy those things. So I don't want to give up playing poker 100%. I don't want to give up the electronic medical record consulting that I'm doing 100%. I'm just looking, like you said, just another source of income and it doesn't have to be a full-time million dollar a year business. So what is then, because there's got to be a line, right? The line is got to be, I could only afford to do X deals, right? I could only, you know, I don't want 10 deals a month. I don't want five deals a month. I want two. I want three at most because anything more than that is going to take me away from everything else. But at the same time, it's going to give me an extra 100 grand, 200 grand or whatever it is a year. So for you, I guess,

what is that line? You know, is it two deals a month that you're kind of aiming for? So you're not market, you know, sending out hundreds of thousands of letters, you're sending out a lot less in your funnel to get to that X number of deals. So what does that number look like? Well, I've had a goal for the past year. I mean, I've always known I'd like to get to one deal a month. Okay. And in Indianapolis, the wholesale fees are a lot smaller than what they would be in California because the price of real estate in Indianapolis is is a lot lower than it is in California. And therefore, your wholesale fees are a lot lower. And so if, you know, an average wholesale fee in Indianapolis is about $5,000, at least for me, that's what it's been. And through,

you know, going to the Rias and networking locally and talking with other wholesalers and other investors, you know, the average fee is $5,000. So for me, if I could do one deal a month, that would be, I'd be satisfied with that. Yeah. I'd still be able to do the, the consulting work that I do and still be able to keep playing poker like I do. Nice. That's cool.

That's cool. I think that's awesome. Like, yeah, I really like the concept of part-time kind of wholesaling as an additional income stream. And furthermore, I mean, there's people probably listen to this that don't care that much about wholesaling. But I think what's great about it is forget the idea. have wholesaling. It's everything else. It's the marketing and the leads. Like, why don't more landlords do that? Why don't more flippers do it on their own? Just because they don't know how or they don't have the time or whatever. But this kind of stuff helps, you know, the rest of us, even more

than it helps a wholesaler. You know, a landlord can pay way more than a flipper or a wholesaler can. And so if more landlords do this, they could get, you know, much better deals than they're getting not the MLS. So I just think that's a great point. That's a great point. Yeah. And, you know, that's always, that's always been something I've wondered about. I'm like, you know, it's always the wholesalers who are doing the, the marketing, the direct mail and all that stuff. And you really don't hear about a lot of landlords or flippers who are doing their own marketing in, in those kinds of ways. And I think if more folks would, you know, hey, better deals, more profit margin. Maybe they can't. Maybe they can't. Maybe they just, I like to think, I mean, wholesalers, you either,

I mean, you have to sort of be, you have to be comfortable on the phone with complete strangers. You have to be able to build rapport with sellers and earn their trust. If you're all about the numbers and all about the business side and not about building relationships with these sellers and building rapport with these sellers, you're never, you can't part. You're not going to have success marketing. So you kind of have to have it or learn how to learn how to. do it, how to talk to sellers. I think that's a really good point, too, is that, I mean, some people just, they're, not good at that kind of thing.

Like, for me, I do not like talking on the phone. I never have. And so I would gladly rather pay you $5,000 to find me my next deal than for me to go and, you know, get a little bit better deal, but have to do it myself. I just don't like talking on the phone that much. It just bugs me. I do it. And, you know, I advertise for, you know, motivated sellers a little bit, but it's not my

favorite part of my job. So why not outsource that to a wholesaler and focus on what I'm good at? And that is, I think, I don't know, landlording or BSing. Who knows? All right. So building upon that, what are, like, what are the skills? And then we got to, you know, move on. But I want to know, what are the skills a good wholesaler should have? Like, do you have any, like, do you have a list in your head or just, what are those things that a person should be good at in order to be a good wholesaler? You have to be good at marketing, first of all. I mean, leads are the lifeblood of any wholesalers business. You have to have leads.

And to generate leads, you have to be good at marketing. And so be good at marketing. What does that mean? You know, how to generate leads? How am I going to generate my leads? My direct mail, you have to understand. what sort of sellers to target or to market towards my website. What kind of content should I be producing on my seller's website to produce leads?

So you have to be good at marketing. Another skill is you have to know the numbers and trust your numbers. There has been deals that I have lost because I haven't trusted my numbers. you have to know your numbers. You have to understand what your buyers want. So you have to know what your buyer's numbers are. You have to, more than anything, I think this is number one skill any wholesaler has to have.

You have to be able to build rapport sellers. People work with people they trust or people they like. And so the number one skill is you, have to be able to build a rapport with those sellers. I know it's cliche. It gets said all the time, but it's the truth. You've only said it 34 times. It's the true. It's the true. Yeah. I love us. I love it. That's great. All right. But the last thing I want to mention is you mentioned, well, there's two more things. First of all, 70% rule. For those people who don't know, it's the idea of, you know, properties worth $100,000, take 70% of that. You got $70,000,

and subtract out your repair costs, and a flipper would use that to know what to pay for, and a wholesaler would subtract out their wholesale fee. And again, there's a lot of good articles. We'll actually link to some 70% real articles on the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 92, but you have something else to say, I can tell. Yeah, something else.

A lot of members of the Bigger Pockets community, they're always asking about numbers, and they automatically assume that every wholesale deal falls into when you're identifying if the numbers work. they automatically assume that they should follow the 70% rule. Well, you have some wholesale. That's for owner occupant pipe houses. And what that means is that's if your cash buyer is going to flip the property and sell it to an owner occupant.

You have some cash buyers out there who are buy and hold investors. So they're not concerned with a 70% rule. They're concerned with the cap rate or how much cash flow the property is going to. produce. So you, the 70% rule doesn't apply in every wholesale deal for buy and hold investments or rental properties. The numbers are different. I don't know if you want me to go into that or link to a post. Yeah, I'll link to a post about it or maybe you'll write one before this podcast comes out or something. But no, but I think that's a very valuable point is. Understand who your buyer is, who your cash buyer is. And, you know, run your numbers from that standpoint,

not just from some imaginary number that you think they're going to want. So I think that's terrific. Yeah. With that, let's, and of course, if people want to, might as well do a second plug. If they want to do some numbers online, you can use the BiggerPockets analysis calculators. We have two of them, a rental property one and a house-slipping one. And wholesalers can use either one, depending on who they're marketing to, which you can get to at biggerpockets.com forward slash analysis.

So make sure you guys check that out. It's kind of cool. And the last question I have before going to the fire round is, what comes next for you? Like where's your business headed? What are you working on in your business to propel it forward in the future? Well, I'm really focused on, like I said, I want to be able to, I don't want to give up the EMR consulting work that I do. I don't want to completely give up the poker playing. But I want to be able to close deals every month. And so I'm really, I touched on podium and some of the software apps I'm using to streamline my, business I'm really focused on creating systems and in my business and look I'm

starting to looking into either a voice a voice answering service or hiring a VA to to initially screen some of the calls that come in and I'm also really focused on increasing my web presence so that I can generate leads via social media really focused on Facebook advertising, Google, starting to research Google AdWords. I haven't pulled the trigger on a Google AdWords campaign yet and really focused on organic SEO for my website. Awesome. Cool. Cool. Jiminy, I mean, I know we got to move on, but when you talk about SEO, what exactly

do you mean by that? Do you want to give just a brief description? dirty. Yeah. Well, I'm focused on organic SEO. So SEO search engine optimization. I want my website to rank well for those search terms that motive, that sellers are searching for. So sell my house fast in Indianapolis, cash home buyers, Indianapolis. And so I'm working with a gentleman who I meant on bigger pockets, Jared Morris. And he's, he's, he's, I kind of hired him to do some consulting for me, kind of modeled my website after his website. And so I'm producing the same type of content for my website

that he's producing for his. And so just really focused on what type of content should I be creating and blog articles. I'm really starting to look into getting on YouTube testimonials for my website. So I had a seller. I closed last week. I closed the deal last week and a seller did a testimonial at the closing table with her.

And so that's just creating content for my website that Google, you know, sees as valuable content so that it'll rank well naturally. It's funny she called me back. The seller called me back a week later. And, you know, usually at the sellers get their money, they don't really, you know, they don't always call you back. They're happy. Their problem's been solved. This seller called me back. I was like, oh, you know, we've been through closing.

what's wrong? She called me back and she said that, you know, she wanted to know if we could do the testimonial over because do it again because she had gotten her hair done since then. So she wanted to redo the testimonial because she was wearing a hat the day of the closing and she had gotten her hair done. And so just really focus, get back on the subject of SEO, just producing content that is that Google C-Dose. is valuable. So whether it be blog posts or YouTube videos or podcast or that's what I'm focused on right now. I think that's smart, very smart. So cool. Well, again, we will link to a lot of that stuff we just talked about in the show notes at biggerpockets.com slash show 92. But I think I hear

a siren starting, which means it's time for... It's time for the fire round. All right, the fire round. These questions come from the bigger pockets forums. And Ben, I know you hang out there, so you probably will recognize some of these. We're just going to fire the matcher real quick. Number one, what is your most effective real estate marketing technique? What do you find the most success from? Direct mail. Mailing to absentee owners.

That was my first investment, you could say, in real estate, which I'm a real estate investor because I am investing in real estate and I invested. I didn't choose to invest in a down payment for a house. I chose to invest into a marketing campaign here towards, real estate owners. So direct mail. Cool. Direct mail is mailing to absentee owners will work and the calls will start coming in. Okay. All right, cool. This one we kind of covered earlier, but maybe I'll maybe

would ask it again and get a little bit more from you. Is it completely necessary to tell your seller that you are wholesaling or can you just say a partner or something? You can, you can say a partner. I mean, I, a lot of times that that, that, question doesn't come up. It's because it's automatically disclosed in your initial conversations that because a lot of times in your first conversation with the seller, you don't know what your plan is with the property 100%. You may think you're going to wholesale it and then find out you can't wholesale it.

You may think this would be a great buy and hold investment for yourself. So if you disclose that you, I think it's necessary to disclose that you may do one of three things. either buy it for yourself, wholesale it, or buy it for yourself or wholesale it. I think it is necessary. And, you know, if you are working with a partner, you do want to disclose that as well. I mean, I have partners, my mentor goes out with me to look at a lot of houses. He is, in essence, he is a partner of mine. And so I could say my partner and I or my friend at I are thinking about, buying this.

Sure. Cool. Right on. Cool. All right. Well, last question from the fire round is what is. This is the fire round. Jesus.

This is the fire round. Under fire. Well, you got a, you got to, ooh. Yeah, feel the heat, man. All right, what issues with a house will make you run from a wholesale deal? What scares you away? I don't have enough knowledge yet to be scared. I don't.

Too dumb and stupid, huh? Too dumb and stupid. I mean, I defer to my mentor on everything. I don't have enough knowledge. I haven't learned enough to know what is a deal breaker or not. Some people say mold and flood. If I would have been scared of that, my very first deal because of the mold and the flood that took place in the house, I would have lost a deal.

So nothing scares me. You're like your little two-month-old baby crawling into a bed of fire. not knowing that you're about to get burned. Hopefully that never happens, by the way. Yeah. Cool. Awesome, man. Awesome. Cool.

Moving on. Moving on. All right, this is the end of the show, which we lovingly call our... Famous for... All right, these questions, we ask every single guest on 80-some shows we've asked them, and now we're in the 90s. So we're going to ask you. What is your favorite real estate book?

my favorite real estate book to be honest 100% honest full disclosure like I do with my sellers to be honest since college I don't I think it's been since college I'm 30 years old and I finished undergrad when I was 27 26 I forget I think it's been since college since I actually read an entire book from front to back so I'm a learn by doing type of person. I'm a learn by doing type of person. But that being said, I don't, I don't, I do read. All of my reading takes place online. And I've been meaning to ask you guys, have you thought about taking some of the most popular blog and forum topics and turning them into a book? Like a lot of... Why would we do that? You're not going to read it.

But some people aren't reading the forum posts or the blog articles because they prefer reading books. I would say my favorite real estate book are the forums and the blog articles. That's all of the real estate knowledge that I get is from the forums and the articles. We have done our pockets book of real estate. It's online. It's a great book. There you go. When we come out, we'll have you write a quote on the book. Well, I do, I mean, we did that back with a, I wrote a post a couple years ago called How to Rent Your House. And it became really, really, really popular. It was just a step by step of how I rent my houses out. And so we took it and put it over on Amazon. And now like hundreds of people download, I don't know, every week or day.

People love it. People love that book. Yeah, it's got a ton of reviews and stuff. So I don't know. I started a, I started a forum post that said I would read, this was the title of the forum post. I would read Jay Scott's book on estimating repairs if dot, dot, dot, dot. And it was if you put it into an audio format. So that received a lot of a discussion and people made good points. It's a, it's a book that you need to be able to reference on paper. It's not enough to just listen to it in your car. You have to be able to go back to it to really, to really use the knowledge that he, he shares in it. Nice. Nice. That's why we actually put the book on investing in real estate with no money down on audio book. So people could like, you could listen to it. So what do you know? Yes. I'm going to keep

doing this for the next like 100 shows. Yeah, this is not good. We're in trouble. Maybe we shouldn't have let Brandon publish a book. All right. So let's get to the next question, which is business book. And I know the answer. You don't read books.

So what's your favorite business website? I really enjoy. There are two blogs that I really, you know, like I said earlier, to be a good wholesaler, you have to be good at marketing. And I'm really focused right now on producing good content to help my website, rank better. So I really enjoy the Fizzle Sparkline blog and copyblogger.com.

Both are great. Good site. Good site. Awesome. All right. What about hobbies? You play poker. You got a two-month-old. You got your lady friend. You're a big guy. I was referring to her. My wife.

You're trying to get me a truck. I'm just saying. All right. So what do you do for fun? Or do you have even time? I forget who it was. We spoke to somebody a couple of shows ago. He was like, yeah, I do real estate for fun. Well, what do you do for fun?

No, I do real estate. That's my fun. Anything else? Angelo said that, yeah. There was Angela, yeah. Who's calling me a wanker right now if he's listening to the show. But all right, what are you doing on the side there? Well, I really am.

I love sports, watching sports. I'm too, you know, too old to be playing sports. my wife won't let me play. Wow, I guess she won't let me. I almost have 10 years on you and I'm not too old to play sports. So something's not right here. I fracture my ankle every time I try playing pickup basketball. I mean, I roll my ankle.

So, I mean, I love watching sports. Living in Indianapolis, we have the Indiana Pacers. We have the Indianapolis Colts. So we have a great minor league baseball team. So I love attending live sporting events. And I love attending live concerts as well. Nice. I love playing with my newborns sun.

Oh, nice. Awesome. Cool, man. And you like winning at poker. I was flashing through your poker profile and you seem like you're doing a decent job. So that's awesome. Poker's been rough lately. I put in a session last night at the tables and I came home and I told my wife, you know,

it was a rough session I didn't do too well. And she said, the first thing she said, well, at least you have. have your real estate thing that's going well for you. So, nice. Well, there's been tough sledding recently. It's it. Poker's ups and downs. You're getting old. That's all. You're getting old. Nice. Nice. Cool. Cool. All right. Well, why don't we

go to the last question? And that is. What is it? What do you believe sets apart successful wholesalers or any real estate investor from those who give up, fail, or never get started? They don't make excuses. That's perfect. Great answer. I mean, you'll always be able to find an excuse. Give me an excuse, Brandon. What's the common excuse? I'm busy for a lot of wholesalers. I don't have any money. I'm busy. I don't have any money. Well, you can get on Craigslist and identify the four-sell by owner properties and start cold-calling those to generate leads. There you go. What about this? I don't. I don't have any time. I don't have internet access. Go to the library. I'm homeless. I live under a bridge.

You shouldn't be wholesale. Okay. Okay, good. No, that's great, great, great stuff, great stuff. Last question, Josh, you get to take it. Oh, thank you, thank you, sir. Yeah, I'll allow you. Ask them where we can find more about them.

Come on, let's go. Did you really just do it? You know what? Hey, Ben, where can we find out more about you? All right, Ben, why don't, why don't you not listen to the tall, goofy guy, and let me ask you a question that matters here. And that's where can people find out more information about you? You can find out more about me on my website, Ben buys indiehouses.com or on bigger pockets, my bigger pockets profile.

Awesome, awesome, man. Well, listen, we really, really want to thank you for coming on. Definitely appreciate it. It's been a kind of a cool year for you. It's pretty exciting to watch you progress over the past year and see you on the site and see all these things happen. So it's been a lot of fun. And just want to thank you for coming on board and sharing your stories. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was a year ago, a little over a year ago when I started listening to your podcast, to listen to all of them. I never could have imagined that I'd be on the podcast a year later sharing my success. So thank you. That's just because we couldn't book anyone else.

That's fine. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Ben, thank you so much, man. It's been a pleasure. And otherwise, if you're not already active on the site, on the community like Ben, And it is, you know, definitely do that. Go to biggerpockets.com, create a profile, jump in and start participating. I cannot tell you enough times how important that can be for your business. Otherwise, check us out. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Gplus, so on and so forth. And I'm totally distracted because there's a little furry dog on Brandon's lap. But thank you again. Charlie, get out of the way. I'm going to go grab my puggle. Oh, man. All right, guys. Go read. Go do something. Make moves. Make it happen. And we will see you again next time on the Bigger Pockets podcast. I'm Josh Dorkin. Signing off. Really? Really?

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