BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 950: The Easiest Way to Invest in Real Estate in 2024 w/Terrence Terrell

Starting point is 00:00:00 For those of you out there listening, maybe you're someone who doesn't yet own a home, you're renting right now, and you want to get into real estate investing. I can imagine that you're looking at home prices, higher interest rates than we've seen in quite a long time, and you're feeling a bit discouraged. I talk to people who are feeling this way all the time, so don't feel like you're alone in trying to figure out what strategies work. But rest of sure, there are strategies that work in today's market. And on this, this episode, we're going to talk about one of the most reliable strategies that honestly most prospective investors can use to get started, which is house hacking.

Starting point is 00:00:43 Welcome to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. I'm your host today, Dave Meyer. Today, I'm going to have a conversation with Terrence Terrell, and he's a lender, and he specializes in working with a special niche of investors. It's investors who are also first-time homebuyers, because whether you're house hacking or buying your first condo, your first primary residence, every real estate. a purchase is an investment, and this is really Terrence's sweet spot. And today he's going to give us all a masterclass in everything you need to know if you're considering house hacking from loan options to common misconceptions that trip up a lot of new investors to the smart

Starting point is 00:01:20 house hackers checklist. I think you guys will love this episode if you're just trying to get started. Let's bring on Terrence. Terrence, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Thanks for being here. Dave, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. All right, we're going to start with something very basic. Most of our audience has probably heard the term house hacking, but for those who haven't yet, can you give us a brief overview of this strategy? For sure. So house hacking is essentially someone that buys and owns a home and rents out part of it for income. Whether it's a single family home and they're renting out rooms, couches, basements, attics, whatever that may be, or they're buying a multi-unit property,

Starting point is 00:01:59 two, three, four units and renting out the other units, that's house hacking. And why is this such a popular strategy, particularly for new investors? It's the easiest thing to do, you know, because there are so many benefits to house hacking. I mean, obviously, you're buying the home as an owner occupant. When we're looking at, you know, from a lender perspective, financing, owner-occupied financing is always going to get you the best terms. So if you can do anything with that to reduce your own financial commitment monthly, there's a benefit there. If it's a multi-unit, I can actually use the qualifying income from the other units that you're renting out to help offset. So people will actually qualify for more home if they're buying a multi-unit than they would if they were buying a single family because you have extra income.

Starting point is 00:02:45 I just want to point out to everyone that the reason Terence has specifically listed duplex, triplex, and quadplex is that that is the limit. Four units is the limit to what is considered, quote-unquote, residential financing. anything above that. So if you go five units or higher, you're going to need to go to a commercial lender or a private lender something different. And so that's why when we talk about house hacking, most of the time, we talk about four units or fewer. In addition to that one benefit of being able to add rental income to your DTI for the two, three, and four units, Terence, as an investor, what are the other benefits of residential financing? Because this is, And owner-occupied financing, because this is sort of the one way that you can buy multiple

Starting point is 00:03:35 units, right, and still get owner-occupied residential financing. Yeah. So the big benefit there is, like I was talking about a few minutes ago, with the benefits of buying as an owner-occupant. So the main benefit, especially for first-time investors, I mean, everybody's financial situation is different, but it's the initial cash investment. So buying as an owner-occupant, your down payment commitment is a lot. lower than it would be if you were buying non-owner occupant, a straight investment property.

Starting point is 00:04:04 So depends on the program, right? So if we're looking at FHA financing, you can put three and a half percent down of the purchase price up to four units. If you're doing conventional financing, you can go into, again, up to four units with five percent down. If you're buying a single unit property and you're a first-time home buyer, you can go into it with three percent down. There are programs to where you can even put down one percent on a single unit property. unit property. So buying as an owner occupant, especially for your first property, is a huge benefit. Even if you're considering, okay, I want to become an investor. Buying a property is an investment. I don't care if it's a one-bedroom house, a townhouse, a condo. That's an investment

Starting point is 00:04:45 because you can then think one, two, three steps ahead. What's my plan for this? So when I'm having a conversation with someone that says, I want to be an investor, what do I do? First step, okay, you want to buy a condo, two steps ahead, you want to buy a multi-unit, a single-family, whatever it may be. What's our mortgage payment going to be for the condo? What is the market rental income for these condos in this area? Will it cover your mortgage and some when you move out? Does your building allow rentals?

Starting point is 00:05:18 Is there a rental cap? These are the things that you want to ask when there's condos. Single-family homes, there's no cap, right? But you still want to make sure that the rental income, income that you're going to get when you move out of it, because again, that's an investment, is going to at least cover the mortgage because you don't want to be in the red when you move out. That's a bad investment. That makes sense. So advocating for thinking ahead so that I think, I guess there's two strategies, right? One is just making sure that it's a positive, probably a cash flow

Starting point is 00:05:44 positive deal if you move out. The other one is if you're using an owner occupied strategy for that first deal and you move out and you want to maybe do another owner occupied deal into a dupe, triple quadplex, you're going to have to refinance that first deal because you obviously can't get to owner-occupied deals at the same time. Well, not necessarily. You don't have to. There's a seasoning, right? Yeah, you don't have to refinance it.

Starting point is 00:06:12 So when you're buying an owner-occupied property, your commitment to that property is one year. Okay. At closing, you sign a document that says, I intend to live in this property for one year. But if you're going conventional financing and you buy one, this year. You can buy another one next year. Owner Occupied. You don't have to touch the financing for the first one. Got it. Okay. And I just want to get back to something that Terrence said earlier, just so everyone knows, is like, there are programs right now where you can put 3% down,

Starting point is 00:06:41 5% down, 10% down, and buy 4 units. Like, that is one of the most powerful ways to start your investing portfolio out there. It's really why so often when investors are asked, like what's the best way to get started? Ask a lender, what's the best way to get started? So many people say this because it's really just kind of a little bit of a cheat code because you can put less down, you can get more units. And if you live in a state or a area where cash flow is difficult to come by, one of the cool things about house hacking is you don't actually need to have it be cash flow positive in order for it to be a positive financial decision for you. If you can reduce your housing costs, like imagine you're renting and you're paying $1,500 a month. If through house hacking,

Starting point is 00:07:29 you're only paying $200 a month, right? That is $1,300 a month that you're saving, and it's actually after tax money, so it's even better. And so you have to think about what kind of financial situation that would put you in. That's not true of everyone. Like, for some people, it would still be better to rent, but it just give you a little bit more flexibility. So I do want to just talk to you a little bit about Terrence, like, who this is good for? Because we've been talking about how great house hacking is, but like, is it good for everyone? Or what are the types of clients you think do best with house hacking? Well, I mean, I'm a little bit biased because I've done it for many, many years myself. But I mean, I think it's good for anybody. Yeah, me too. I did it myself. That's

Starting point is 00:08:09 how I got started. Exactly. And, you know, if, like you said, if the numbers make sense to where it's reducing your housing cost or housing expense, or even if it's the exact same as it would be if you're renting, your benefit there is you're owning a home, you're building equity. So there's the win there. But like you say, it's not for everybody. Not everybody wants to be a landlord. Not everybody wants to deal with tenants. That's understandable. Right. So if someone is wanting to and willing to be a landlord or they're used to having roommates, it's a win-win. I don't see any negatives to it if it's someone that is capable and willing to be a landlord. I think that makes sense. There are certain personality types, right? Where like, if you don't want to live next to your tenants, like, I personally don't think

Starting point is 00:08:55 it's as bad as people make it out to be. Like, I did it for several years. But I understand that if that's something you really don't like, it might not make sense for you. All right. So now that we know what house hacking is and who should consider it, what do you need to know before you go after your first house hack deal? Terence brings that down for us right after the break. For decades, real estate has been a cornerstone of the world's largest portfolios. But it's also historically been sort of complex, time-consuming, and expensive. But imagine if real estate investing was suddenly easy, all the benefits of owning real, tangible assets without the complexity and expense. That's the power of the Fundrise flagship fund. Now you can invest in a $1.1 billion portfolio of real estate,

Starting point is 00:09:41 starting with as little as $10.00,000 single-family rental homes spread across the booming Sunbelt. They also have 3.3 million square feet of highly sought after industrial facilities, thanks to the e-commerce wave. The flagship fund is one of the largest of its kind. It's well diversified, and it's managed by a team of professionals. And it's now available to you. Visit fundrise.com slash BP Market to explore the fund's full portfolio, check out historical returns, and start investing in just minutes. Carefully consider the investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses of the Fundrise flagship fund before investing. This and other information can be found in the fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash flagship. This is a

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Starting point is 00:11:29 you could save this tax season. Welcome back to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. I'm here with Lender Terence Terrell and we're walking through everything you need to know before you start that first house hack. So let's just jump back into it. Let's talk about, you know, some common misconceptions that happen with house hacking? Like, where do people get confused during this process? One of the biggest ones I have when I take phone calls from people is, number one, the down payment.

Starting point is 00:11:57 You know, it's that misconception and I have to have 20% down to buy a house that it's, you know, so expensive, you know, saving for a down payment is so hard, like we just talked about. There are other options, especially now that Fannie Mae has changed their guidelines back at the end of last year to allow 5% down on 2 to 4 units. that's huge. I mean, you've not needed 20% down to buy a house for quite a while. I mean,

Starting point is 00:12:23 it's, you can get into your first home with 3% down. Multi-units is where it gets a little complicated, but the down payment is a huge misconception. The difficulty of being a landlord is a little bit of a misconception. It's not as hard as people make it out to be. Like you said, you've done it before. I've been doing it for years. I have tennis that live above, below, in other units. It's not terrible if you're willing to put in the work, you have to make sure you vet the tenants. People think that not even just from a house hacking standpoint, from a home buying standpoint, that it's hard, that the financing is hard. It's not if you have a good lender that's going to make sure that everything that you have is in place and if it's not, tell you what you need to do

Starting point is 00:13:03 to get there. Or that I can house hack and I can make money every single month on every purchase, no matter where I am, like you touched on a little bit ago, there are differences depending on where you are, the market that you're in. I talk to a lot of people, thankfully, through bigger pockets because I've had a presence on the platform for almost 10 years, 12 years now, that when they're listening to podcasts, when they're reading articles and they're talking about cash flow positive, I bought a house for $50,000 and I put $10,000 into it and I'm going to sell it for $400,000. Like that doesn't work everywhere. You know, so I work with, like I said, I'm in Chicago.

Starting point is 00:13:40 I do land in multiple states around the country, but, you know, I'm primarily working in a major metropolitan where those numbers aren't necessarily the fact. So we have to kind of back up a little bit and say, okay, if you're looking to buy a multi-unit, on a two-unit, you're probably going to do what you said, Dave, and you're going to reduce your monthly payment just with a two-unit. Three-unit, you're probably going to break even, four units where you're going to be cash-low positive. Then you think about the numbers when you're going to move out. So those are the biggest misconceptions that I have to deal with. Do you find that most clients that come to you fully understand what they're getting into? Are there any things that prospective or potential house buyers should be thinking about before approaching a lender? Well, to answer your first question, no.

Starting point is 00:14:25 A lot of people have no idea what they're getting themselves into. You know, they say, okay, I have, you know, X number of dollars to put down on a house. I want to buy a million dollar house. I'm like, okay, hold on. Let's back up a little bit. Let's work backwards into what that needs to look like. Because people know that they need a down payment. What that down payment is, they don't know, but we educate them on what that is.

Starting point is 00:14:46 But one thing they're not thinking about is cap X on a house. They're not thinking about closing costs on a house. You have to have those. I mean, there are ways for closing costs. There are ways to ask for seller credits to kind of help with those. One question I do get a lot of us, oh, I'm just, I want to roll in my, closing costs. I'm like, well, technically, that's not a thing. The way that you do it is you get a credit from the seller to then reduce those closing costs. That's how you can get the seller to

Starting point is 00:15:13 pay for closing costs, but there are limits. You know, there are limits on how much you can get. With FHA financing, you know, you're capped at 6%, depending on the down payment. Conventional financing, you know, if you're less than 10% down, which most first-time buyers are, you're capped at 3% of the purchase price. But that goes a long way. That can help you almost eliminate your closing costs. So then you can come to the table with just your down payment. But then also, okay, well, what's my cap-ex on this place? You know, what am I going to have to put into it? What am I going to have to put into it years to come? This is why you have a home inspection. So you can have a general idea of what that looks like. One thing people don't think about is reserves.

Starting point is 00:15:54 Yes. Reserves are key. You know, if you're buying a two to four unit and we're using conventional financing, six months of reserves or your minimum. them. And what that means is six months of your mortgage payment put away. We have to show it. We have to source it. We have to show you have. It doesn't have to be liquid. It can be 401k. It can be stocks. We just have to show that you have six months of reserves. Yeah. And that just makes sense from a risk mitigation perspective, right? Like everyone needs to be able to weather financial downturns. Like, you know, everyone knows this. Life happens. And you might face a month where a boiler breaks and then something happens in your personal life, totally unrelated to real estate, you have to have some money in the bank, both literally and figuratively, to actually be able to weather those storms.

Starting point is 00:16:42 Because as we talk about a lot on the show, real estate works when you hold it over the long run. What stops you from doing that is not properly having reserves to weather these downstorms. That's when some people have to sell at an inopportune time and take a loss. Whereas if you just keep the right amount of reserves, you can hold on as long as you need to make the return that you're looking for. Right. So let's talk about qualifying for a house hacking loan. Like for an owner-occupied mortgage for, let's say, duplex. Like what are the main things you as a lender are looking at?

Starting point is 00:17:15 We're going to look at credit score. We're going to look at assets. We need to make sure you have sufficient funds to close. So your down payment, your closing costs, your reserves. We're going to look at your debt. income ratio. This one is huge. So your total monthly debt, because everything we look at from a lending perspective is monthly. So your total monthly debt as a percentage of your gross monthly income. And that is inclusive of your mortgage payment. So if we're looking at a duplex, we're going to

Starting point is 00:17:48 look at your gross monthly income plus the rental income that we can get from the other unit. And we can use 75% of that. The appraisal is going to tell us what the market rent. income is. We use 75% of that. And we look at your debts. So your minimum monthly payments on your credit cards, your car payments, your student loans, any other monthly debt that you have plus the housing expense, those are your monthly debts. And we look at that percentage. With conventional financing, most of the time your cap debt's somewhere between 47 and 49% of your gross monthly income. We're going to want to see a credit score of at least 640. And then when we're looking at scores, you know, below 700, we may also be looking at FHA financing.

Starting point is 00:18:33 Because FHA financing will probably give you better terms of financing. What I say by that is your interest rate and your mortgage insurance. Because when you put down less than 20%, this is lending 101. When you put down less than 20%, you're going to pay private mortgage insurance. So that factor, that mortgage insurance is probably going to be lower with FHA financing. the rate is probably going to be lower with FHA financing if your credit score is a little bit lower. Still a way to get into the property, but it's a different way we can finance it to keep it as favorable for you as possible. So those are the big things we look at.

Starting point is 00:19:06 So when I'm qualifying someone and something is off, one of those things don't fit, we figure out a plan so that they can get there. Got it. Because there are ways to get there. Yeah, that totally makes sense. So much of it is tradeoffs like you're talking about. Like the ways to get there, you know, if you want to put 20% down, great, you're going to probably cash flow better because you're not going to be paying that PMI, that private mortgage insurance. If you put down less, if you have less money saved up, that's also perfectly fine,

Starting point is 00:19:37 but you have to understand that that's going to reduce your cash flow a little bit. For first time investors, for people who are just getting started, like you sometimes just need to make tradeoffs and you're not going to get the perfect loan because just to be perfect honest, you're not the perfect borrower to the bank, right, unless you have 20% down. And so you have to just think about that. And that's totally fine, right? Like, not your first deal doesn't need to be a home run. A lot of times house hacking can turn into a home run. But even if it's just, you know, a single, a double, a triple kind of deal, it can really work out for you. And that's why you want to just work with your lender to sort of consider the tradeoffs, what your priorities are,

Starting point is 00:20:17 what your goals are, and construct the right loan for you, given those parameters. Absolutely. People just have to understand and okay, well, here's where I am right now, like you said. I may not be able to buy this right now, but right now I can buy this and still be comfortable and be happy. And then later on, I can upgrade to this when I have more money, more equity, more salary, whatever the situation is. All right, we do have to take one more quick break. But while we're away, if you have a friend or a family member who wants to get their first property but need some information, some inspiration, some encouragement to get started, go ahead and send this episode there away. We'll be right back. For decades, real estate has been a cornerstone of the world's largest portfolios. But it's also historically been sort of complex, time-consuming, and expensive. But imagine if real estate investing was suddenly easy, all the benefits of owning real, tangible assets without the complexity and expense.

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Starting point is 00:21:42 returns, and start investing in just minutes. Carefully consider the investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses of the Fundrise Flagship Fund before investing. This and other information can be found in the funds prospectus at fundrise.com slash flagship. This is a paid advertisement. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. That means you can stop struggling to get your job notice on other job sites. Indeed, sponsor job posts help you stand out and hire the right people quickly. Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page where your ideal candidates are looking.

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Starting point is 00:24:57 question here, which is, you know, you've already given us some advice on how to sort of start thinking one step ahead, two steps ahead. But do you have any thoughts on how house hackers who are looking for their first deal or maybe their second house hack can think strategically right now and set themselves up for lendability, which might be a word I just made up, but lendability in the future. So it's honestly the exact same things that we go through when qualifying them the first time. So I want to say, okay, well, what is the plan? What do you want to do? When you already own something, like if someone that's looking to buy something in the future that they already own, you want to think about your tax returns. Because this is, I mean, this can be a whole new

Starting point is 00:25:44 conversation, but I'll kind of shorten it. We're going to look at your tax returns to tell us what your income is on your current property. So depending on the expenses that you have for the property, depending on what the rental is, depending on how many months of vacancy you have, you may not show very well on your tax returns, which is always the fun part, another fun part when I'm having conversations with people because they say, oh, I have a really good accountant and I'm writing off all this stuff and I'm like, great, you're in the red on this property, technically. So that may hurt you for qualifying for your second property. This is only for a multi-unit. Again, I can go on about this all day, but on a single unit property, we can use departing rental

Starting point is 00:26:24 income when you're buying another one, which is awesome. So we just have to show that your current home is rented. We have to show that you have received two months rent or first month's rent and security deposit. And then we can use, again, a percentage of that to offset your current mortgage. So when you're looking to buy your second property, it's almost like you're starting over again. We don't have to hit you with any additional debt. Terrence, do you have any final thoughts or final advice for those who want to house hack and how they can just be as prepared as possible for their conversations with their lenders and to be a successful house hacker? Absolutely. Well, number one is talk to your lender. It's so true. It's funny because it just seems like people are always like,

Starting point is 00:27:07 well, I don't know if I'll qualify. And I'm like, well, did you talk to a lender? And they say, no. No, exactly. I'm like, it's free. Just go talk to a lender. They're going to tell you exactly what you need to know. And you'll save so much time knowing exactly what you qualify for, exactly what your position is. And you could start honing in on the properties that actually work for you. Absolutely. I mean, I would say make sure that they're talking to a lender that understands investors. There are plenty of great lenders that understand investors on bigger pockets, on the platform.

Starting point is 00:27:37 Same thing with the real estate agent. You want to make sure that you're working with one that knows investing, knows investor in your market. because that's key because that's going to help you set yourself up for success. It's not just someone that says, okay, yeah, here's what you qualify for. Here's I can close the deal. It's someone that's thinking about it with an investment mindset. So that's thing number one. And when you're going into that conversation, have the essentials with you.

Starting point is 00:27:59 You know what your income is, know what your assets are, know what you're willing to spend on the home monthly, know what you're willing to put down. And then they can help you work into the purchase price so you know what you're doing. There are plenty of people to talk to, just people that have done it, plenty of investors that aren't lenders and realsters that are on the platform, that are on the forums. Have conversations with them. Those that are in your market. You know, go to some of the meetups. Those are key. I go to a bunch of them.

Starting point is 00:28:25 It's fun. You know, it's great to just talk to people because I started investing before I even started lending. Oh, nice. So, yeah, it's just one of those things where there's so much knowledge out there, but you want to make sure that it is specific to you as possible. But step one, talk to a lender because you don't know. what you don't know. All right. Well, that's just very candid, good advice.

Starting point is 00:28:45 I appreciate that. I do what I can't. And obviously, for anyone listening, if you want to meet a lender, we'll put Terrence's information in the show notes, of course, below. We also have a lender finder on BiggerPockets. If you go to BiggerPockets.com slash lenders,

Starting point is 00:28:59 put in some information there. You can find a lender to talk to. Terrence, thank you so much for joining us. This was a really great, fun conversation. We appreciate it. Dave, thank you so much for having me. This was a blast. And thank you all for listening for Bigger Pockets. I'm Dave Meyer, and we'll see you soon.

Starting point is 00:29:34 Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K, copywriting is by Calico content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing, or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.biggerpockets.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions

Starting point is 00:30:06 are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk. So use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. Bigger Pocket's LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential, or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.

BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - 950: The Easiest Way to Invest in Real Estate in 2024 w/Terrence Terrell

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