BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast - Should You Refinance Now? + The Greatest HELOC Hack Ever (No/Low Interest)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Mortgage rates are coming down. Or are they? A few weeks ago, we were all getting excited because the Fed cut interest rates, and mortgage rates actually dropped to their lowest point in 18 months. But since then, and as I warned, was likely to happen, rates started to creep back up. So the mortgage rate roller coaster continues, but there are some really interesting things going on right now. Refinance rates are looking better than they have in a long time.

Starting point is 00:00:27 There's some pretty interesting He-Lock products out there, and it sort of begs the question. Is now a good time to refinance or otherwise pull equity out of your deals? Today, in our Deep Dish episode, we're exploring all things lending. Hey, everyone, it's Dave. And today, since we're talking about refinances, Helox and other borrowing options for investors, I'm going to bring on an expert. She's been on the show a couple times. You may have heard her before.

Starting point is 00:01:01 Her name is Chaley Ridge, and she's a mortgage lender, an investor, and she specializes on working with non-owner-occupied, so specifically, like, investor loans. So she knows a ton about the specific lending and borrowing options that are available for investors like you and me. And in today's episode, Chaley and I are going to talk through the factors investors should consider if they're thinking about a refinance. Whether the potential for rates to drop further than they have at this point means you should wait to refurb. finance. And lastly, we're going to talk about a trick or a hack that you can use on an investor HELOC. I didn't know this at all, and it's pretty amazing. You can use this trick to free up liquidity in your portfolio while minimizing your interests or paying very, very little interest on a line of credit. It's pretty incredible. I'm excited for you all to hear about it. So let's jump in.

Starting point is 00:01:53 Chaley Ridge, welcome back to the Bigger Pockets of Podcast. Thanks for being here. My pleasure always, Dave. Thanks for having me. I got to admit, when we scheduled the show, we reached out to you to come back on, it was a very different looking climate. And we had this idea for a show we're going to talk about, is it time to refinance? And this was a couple weeks ago when rates were down 6.1, 6.2. Now we're in the middle of October and rates have shot back up. So it kind of, you know, destroyed my idea for this episode. But I think we still have plenty to talk about in terms of mortgage rates. Yes, I agree. The the reverse effect of that Fed fund rate announcement, September 18th, people have been real

Starting point is 00:02:35 confused by those soundbites. So yeah, we have some things to unpack. All right. Well, let's just start there. It was about a month ago where the Fed cut their federal funds rate, 50 basis points. And although it wavered that first day, we did see rates start to tick down to the lowest sixes, lowest it's been in quite a while. And things were looking pretty good. So actually, let's just start there. When. rates were lower, did you as a lender start to see an uptick in demand for purchases, refinances, all the above? You know, for us, I've been seeing the writing on the wall where we're getting more applications, probably as late ago as July, early July in anticipation. And certainly,

Starting point is 00:03:19 yes, there was probably that week period of time between when the announcement actually came, and things started to take another form that we saw a little bit more activity. But overall, I think investors are feeling fairly optimistic and even still rates are lower than they have been. So I think that we're on the right path. Okay. Well, that's optimistic. And what's the profile of people who were starting to jump back in? Was there any pattern? You know, on average overall, over, you know, a 20-year career, I might go as far as to say that the balance between refinancing, largely cash-out, These are investors that are looking to harvest equity, et cetera. Refinancing, cash out refinance and purchase has been pretty equal over the years.

Starting point is 00:04:03 I don't know that I've seen any one particular period of time where one has massively outperformed the other. I mean, if we go back to pandemic rates, even then, a very nice split between purchasing and cash out refinancing. And I'm curious what type of loans people were refinancing out of. And again, you know, the premise of the show is to talk about refinancing. This is a question I personally get constantly. It's like now a good time to refi. Is this the time? So was it just a normally scheduled refi, like people who are doing a burr or renovation

Starting point is 00:04:37 and wanted to just get a different type of loan? Or are these people who are buying long-term properties and are just trying to improve their rate? So rate and term versus cash out refi. I would put the cash-out refinance at a 70-30. Okay. If we're looking at refinancing, just for the sake of refinancing to reduce an interest rate or maybe get out of an arm, maybe buy out a partner, whatever it may be. I would say more often than not, it's for cash out reason. In fact, statistically speaking, when we talk about mortgages related to investment properties, the shelf life, I think Dave, you and I have talked about this, the shelf life is about five years.

Starting point is 00:05:15 Yeah. Right. So whatever the need is, whether it is harvesting the equity, borrowed funds are non-taxable, or improving the term or, you know, you know, any number of reasons. They just don't have the shelf life that maybe a primary residence would have. That's super interesting. And yeah, we've brought this up before, but I just want to make sure everyone understands that normally, I think on a residential owner occupied, it's closer to 10 years, right? It's like the average. I think it's right now seven, a little over 7.7.7. Okay. So those are longer and therefore in your world, more profitable, right?

Starting point is 00:05:47 because you have more time to collect interest. Right. So when you have a more investor-style loan, even if it's on a residential property, this helps explain to people who are wondering why investor loans are a little bit more expensive in terms of interest rate typically than an owner-occupied loan. There are many reasons for that, but this is one reason, is that because the bank, in order to maximize profit, the lender wants to ensure that they make this. amount of profit on this loan, needs that higher interest rate to offset the shorter duration

Starting point is 00:06:22 that they're receiving interest payments for. Absolutely. That and points. Both of those factors. And you're right. There's lots of reasons that the non-owner occupied or investor property is going to have a higher rate. But that certainly is one of them, yeah. All right. So a month ago, things were looking at best they've looked in well over a year at 6.1. I think it was actually the lowest we've seen. let's see, back to about January of 2023. And since then, rates have gone back up rather sharply. And I should say, let's get this in context as of today, according to Mortgage News Daily, they're about 6.6%. So they've gone up 50 basis points still well below where they were just in July, right?

Starting point is 00:07:07 So it's not like they've really completely retreaded. I think that's important for everyone to understand. But maybe, Jaley, you could help us understand why these rates have gone back up. You know, the metric that the feds are looking at and Wall Street, obviously, Wall Street has a way of interpreting where they think the feds are going to place their Fed fund rate. So a lot of this is in a lag. It's predetermined prior to any announcement from Mr. Jerome Powell, who those that may not be familiar with that name is the Fed share. but I think that a lot of it is going to have to do with the metric, right? Where is the CPE? Where is the CPI? The jobs report. All of these things are coming in much hotter than we would have otherwise expected. And remember, Wall Street wants a strong economy. Everybody wants a strong economy. By all metrics, we are in a very strong economy, okay? But they also want the feds to reduce the interest rate. Well, what I think a lot of people miss or just don't connect in the dot, they just, you know, they're not putting a lot of their time and focus into this idea of rates and economy, the stronger the economy is, guys,

Starting point is 00:08:17 the higher the interest rates are going to be. It's unfortunately in my business, I wouldn't say rooting for a bad economy, but the worst the economy is doing, the better our interest rates are and the better the mortgage industry is going to fare. So you can't have it both ways. Yeah. Let me just for a minute explain this because this can confuse people and rightfully so it is complicated. Yeah. Because we talk about quote unquote interest rates and the Federal Reserve, like interest rates are one thing.

Starting point is 00:08:44 They are not one thing. There are all sorts of different interest rates across the economy. And the Fed only controls one of them. It's called the federal funds rate. It basically sets the baseline for interest rates. And a lot of other interest rates and investing behavior sort of flows from where the Fed sets their rate. And when we talk about residential mortgages,

Starting point is 00:09:07 The actual closer relationship is not to the federal funds rate, but is to bond yields. And for residential owner occupied mortgages, that is typically for a 10-year U.S. Treasury. If you're unfamiliar with this, it's just a bond. It's basically investors lending the U.S. government money for some period of time, in this instance, 10 years at a certain interest rate. So mortgage rates are really closely tied to these treasuries, and treasury rates go up and down based on investor demand. when a lot of investors want to invest in bonds, yields typically go down. Basically, it's just supply and demand. A lot of investors want to invest in bonds. And so the government has all these different options who they can borrow from. And that means they can pay less interest because so many people want it. On the other hand, when not a lot of people want to invest in bonds, that pushes yields up because the government has to raise the interest rate in order to attract investors. And whether or not people want to invest in bonds, as Chaley said, has a lot of people want to invest in bonds, as Chaley said, has a lot of a lot to do with the broader economy. When there is fear of a recession or the economy is weakening, investors tend to want to put their money somewhere safe. Bonds are very safe. And so that increases

Starting point is 00:10:18 demand for bonds and it pushes down yields and it takes mortgage rates down. So as Chile just said, if you are rooting for a strong economy, you're probably going to see rates maybe come down a little bit, but they're going to probably stay relatively in the range where they are now. whereas the only way, at least I see rates going down significantly, is if we see a big break in the labor market and much higher recession risk than is currently flashing in the economy. Beautifully set, my friend. Perfectly said. Yeah, good job. I'm sweating now.

Starting point is 00:10:52 I'm sweating. It's like how quickly can you explain body yields? It's a rabbit hole. Yeah, it is. All right. We've got to take a quick pause for some ads. We'll be back in a few minutes. Managing properties can feel like a full-on circus.

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Starting point is 00:14:31 to go down. You know, so we're just like constantly chasing this information when it's so unclear. And that, at least to me, is what's leading to all this volatility in mortgage rates. Well, and all the variables that we, you know, we try to predict for, but there's really just no, no predicting. We can layer in the election. We can layer in the Middle East. I mean, there's, there's so many other. And we haven't even scratched the surface on how many of the different variables or metrics that play into really where this thing is going to go. So, just to kind of segue back into, the answer to is now the time to refinance or not? Listen, I'm going to, if I can, just take a second and pepper my response to that question. For those brand new investors or potentially not totally informed yet investors, my answer is going to sound like a sales pitch that I'm trying to get everybody to refinance. For those that have taken some time to be informed or are seasoned, more seasoned investors, they're going to know and understand it's always. the right time to refinance depending on the investment. It's the key, and I say this maybe five,

Starting point is 00:15:38 six times every time you and I talk, they have to be doing the math. Okay, the math will not lie. And you've got to be looking at the investment and doing the appropriate math. And that includes appreciating rents and property, tax benefit. There's lots of nuance that goes into how you're going to come out with the plus or minus when you are running the right math. I totally agree. The math is what's important and sort of the context of how else you're going to spend your money and sort of how you're allocating resources. I guess the general sentiment, at least that I hear, is people are waiting for rates to go down a bit more, or at least down to where they were a couple of weeks ago to 6.1, 6.2%. Do you think that's wise? Betting on a come? I'm not sure. I think it depends on

Starting point is 00:16:24 what the use of the refinance is. And I know that this sounds vague, and it also adds to the unsubstant. uncertainty because, you know, nobody's going to give you a yes or no answer. And if they are giving you just a black or white, then there may be an agenda. Okay? It's very specific or subjective to the circumstances. So is it wise to wait for the rate to come down a quarter point? Well, I don't know. What is the loan size? Is the loan size 150,000 and the difference in payment for that quarter of a point is six bucks a month? Hell no. It's not wise because the adverse could be happening. And what are you giving up? Let's say you're pulling cash out. And let's say that you're waiting. two months to get this cash and then you've missed out on these opportunities.

Starting point is 00:17:02 Right. So the variables that go into that are important to moderate and make sure that you're doing the math. Yeah, totally. I think if you're, especially if you're doing that cash out refi, it really all comes down to what you're going to use the money for. Because if you're just going to take it out and put it in a savings account, you can do the math and see if the yield on that savings account is going to be better or worse than not refinancing. I'll, actually just give you an example of something I've been thinking about. Maybe Chaley, you can give me some advice here. But I was, you know, I'm in a fortunate position where I wanted to buy a deal and it was competitive a couple months ago. And I bought it for cash just to be

Starting point is 00:17:43 competitive. And I've actually not refinance it. The plan has always been to finance it. But I haven't because I haven't found a deal that I want to do that would necessitate me taking the money out of that deal. Because right now, having no financing on it, I'm earning something. I think it's close to like a 10, 11% cash on cash return. If I refinance it, I will probably that deal will go down to a 7% cash on cash return, which I'm still happy with. But I'd take that money out and then just put it in a savings account and that would earn 4.5% right now given yield. So why would I do that right now? I would just rather keep earning the higher yield on my money right now until I need that deal. So it's not like there's a yes or no answer, but that math, at least,

Starting point is 00:18:29 is not super complicated. One has a better cash and cash return than the other. So I'm going to wait until I find something better to do with that money and hold off on refinancing for now. A hundred percent agreement. Here's my devil's advocate, or here's how I would counter that. The downside of getting the cash now and not using it, obviously, to your point, is you're going to be paying interest on funds that aren't being used, right? And you're going to lose some of the return that you'd be getting otherwise. The downside on the flip, there's two pieces I would add to that is that if you need something, if something comes up tomorrow that you want to use those funds for, it's illiquid and it's going to take you a good 30 plus days to get at it. You're going to lose that

Starting point is 00:19:07 opportunity. Okay, is that the end of the world? Maybe not. I don't know. But what I would suggest is to liquidate those funds. One of the ways that you could do that as an investor is go look for first lien helok. Right. Right. So that you've liquidated it. Now you have access to this line of credit. I am a huge, huge fan of, well, the product that we have is called the All In One, First Lean Helock, where now you've created a scenario. You've got this line of credit at your disposal. You're never going to pay interest unless you're using the balance or using some of the lines. So that's the best of all worlds as far as I'm concerned. That is a good point. And let me just want to make sure everyone's following this. But basically, I have this equity tied up in this deal because I bought it

Starting point is 00:19:49 for all cash. I have several options. One is to just let it sit, which is what I've been doing. The second is to do a cash out refinance. Basically, take, let's just say, I keep 25% of my equity in the deal. I take out a loan for the other 75%. Then I just put it in a high yield savings account, money market account, until I put it in my next deal. Or another way to tap equity in a real estate deal is to use a he lock. This is a home equity line of credit. And that is different from a mortgage because it is not money that I have to use. I just have the option to use it. So basically, if I took out a HELOC, maybe I have a hundred grand that I could choose

Starting point is 00:20:31 to put in another deal because I've applied for it and received this line of credit. But I don't start paying on that until I invest it. And so what Chaley's saying is if I used a HELOC, I can still earn that higher return, but I'm more ready to take advantage of future opportunities because I have the HELOC in place and then I can use that basically however I see fit as new deals or new opportunities arise. 100% yes. It's time for a break, but stick around because later in the show, Chaley is going to share a pretty genius mortgage hack for how you can free up liquidity

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Starting point is 00:24:38 Pock's Podcast with Jaley Ridge. Just out of curiosity, what's like the difference in rates between a cash out refi right now and a helock? Cashout refi pulled rates before we got on here. Cashout at 75%. And remember you guys, the LLP is important. Loan level price adjustment. So the variables that we are talking about to quote an interest rate are things like loan size, loan to value, property type, credit score, all of these things matter. But just baseline, let's say cash out refinance, you're probably going to be in the high sixes, six point seven, six point eight seven, on average, okay, single family residence. That's way better than it was. It's still great, yeah. Yeah, even though they've come up a little bit, that is, you know, a point in a

Starting point is 00:25:19 half lower than what it was, what, a year ago? Yeah, totally. Borrowed funds are non-taxable, as I said before. Points that you would pay also can be as a tax deduction on that scheduling for investment property. So let's just say high sixes. The first lien helot currently is fully indexed at 7.9. Fully indexed means you've got an index variable. That one moves, and a margin does not move. It's fixed. The index on that product is the one-year CMT, which is code for the U.S. Treasury. Okay. So, In exchange for the benefit of liquidity that you were just talking about, giving me that flexibility to use the equity in my deal, as our example, you're basically paying a point higher in interest

Starting point is 00:26:01 rates. Yes, but let me add something. So this may be a bit of a rabbit hole. I don't know. I like rabbit holes. Okay, okay. So the arbitrage here, you guys, interest on any open-ended revolving account. In this case, we're talking about a he lock, okay?

Starting point is 00:26:15 Interest is calculated daily every single day within a 30-day billing cycle. And because this is open-ended, you now, as the consumer, are in control. The all-in-one is very unique in that it doubles as both the line of credit and checking and savings. So whereby ordinary income from all sources can be utilized to deposit in this checking account where the balance of the HELOC lives, driving it down dollar for dollar. Because remember, I just said that interest accrues every day. So if you've got a $100,000 balance and you make $10,000. $10,000 a month and you drop that $10,000 a month in on top of the $100 grand.

Starting point is 00:26:55 Now you are calculating interest on $90,000, not $100,000. So you leave that $10,000 in there for 29 days out of a 30-day billing cycle. I'm abbreviating, okay? So you're only paying interest on $90,000 for 29 days. You're going to use a credit card, for example, for every living expense that you have, down to a stick of gum. on day 30, before the credit card accrues any interest, you're going to pay that credit card off. Let's say it's nine grand.

Starting point is 00:27:23 I love that smile. Yes, this is a great trick. I love it. I love where you go with this. Okay, yes. So you're going to pay off your credit card that you racked up nine grand on. So you have $1,000 left over of the $10,000 that you put in originally. Fast forward to day one month, two.

Starting point is 00:27:37 Your outstanding balance is now $99,000, because you had $1,000 left over, fully accessible. 24-7, nothing changes. You're just now utilizing a different vehicle to greatly diminish the amount of interest that you'll accrue. So to your point, it can do so much more than just having this access, this liquidity now, that you won't pay interest unless you're using it, but you can also forget about the 6.8 fixed rate and the 7.9 helock rate. It's not about that anymore, guys. You really need to change your thinking. It takes a minute to connect the dots. It's complicated, but when you get it, it's powerful. Okay. I love this idea. This is a great rabbit hole. And let me see if I could do my best to summarize what you're saying. Okay. A revolving line of credit works differently than a mortgage. When you take out a mortgage, you have a fixed amount that you owe and that you're paying on for most people when you get fixed rate debt, same payment every single month. A revolving line of credit is inherently different. It's similar to a credit card, right? You're paying interest on how much you're using at a given time. And so what Chaley's saying is with this particular helock, you can take out, we're going to use a round number, 100 grand. This is your helic and say you use it for, you know, buying a rental property. But if you get your paycheck deposited into this account and you can do that with this account, let's say your paycheck every month is $10,000. That's a lot of money, but we're just using round numbers. So you put your paycheck in there on the first of the month.

Starting point is 00:29:13 That reduces your principle that you're paying interest on to $90,000 instead of $100,000. And the reason Chaley was saying you put all your money on your credit card is that way, that $10,000 you deposited stays in your bank account for basically the entire month. Then you pay off your credit card. Your balance goes up a little bit for like a day or two. And then you deposit your next paycheck in there and you reduce your principal. This is such a good, it's like, I really love like credit card hacks and like sort of like balancing. This one's like a helic hack.

Starting point is 00:29:45 It's like a really great way to just minimize what you're owing every single month without really, you're not changing anything about your lifestyle at all. Nothing. And this account, this particular product is so great that whatever tech you have or automation you have with your BFA or Chase or whatever, exactly the same. It's housed by an FDIC insured bank after closing. So online bill pay, debit cards, routing numbers, paper checks, whatever you have today with your Wells Fargo account, exactly the same, you guys. You're simply transferring from this vessel to this vessel. Now you're in control. You've created an environment where you've become your own bank.

Starting point is 00:30:21 Wow. Right? You're now in control. It's my absolute favorite product, especially for investors. So real quickly, not to go too off on a tangent, but remember as investors, most of us have these gross rents sitting idle that you can. utilize for 29 days. So you think you just have your $10,000 of ordinary income. Maybe you've got another $20,000 of gross rents before mortgage payments go back out the door. You're going to use that and diminish that balance and that interest as well before you make those mortgage payments.

Starting point is 00:30:50 So there's so many cool things about this product. I cannot speak highly enough about it. It's my absolute favorite for the right individual. And it does not work for everybody. When you say the right individual, who is the right individual? Variables aside, because there's exceptions to every rule. But I would say on average, average, the individual that has at least 10% left over at the end of the month after everything goes back out the door. So in our example, let's say it's 10 grand. If you've got about a thousand bucks left over after all your expenses, food, gas, utilities, everything, typically you're going to do well with this loan product. In comparison to current interest rates, 30-year fixed rates,

Starting point is 00:31:26 if you're going to go side-by-side comparison, it's going to kick, you know what? Really? Out of a 30-year, six and a half percent. Just by reducing that principle by 10-ish percent, just using our numbers from before. It could be more. Like, you might be able to do it by more or less. But just in our example, you would reduce your principle by 10 percent. That obviously lowers your interest payment.

Starting point is 00:31:47 And that, as Chaley's saying, it either makes up for or exceeds the difference in interest rate. Yeah. And you have full access to it if you need it for whatever you need it, however you need it. And just as another quick sidebar. So let's just say for those listening to this that maybe have a bunch of cash sitting idle, Let's say you've got 100 grand sitting in a checking or savings that you're just kind of waiting on the sidelines. It's doing very little to nothing. There are individuals that we get this loan for, secure this loan for, that they don't pay any interest.

Starting point is 00:32:16 Really? So they had this balance. They started with this balance and they had this cash over here that cycles through for the majority of the month. They just drop it in there, right? And they extinguish the balance for all those months. If they have access to a lot of depository every month, they are able to utilize that to their advantage so that the amount of interest that they're paying is little to nothing. Well, if that's what I was just wondering, like could I, to continue our example,

Starting point is 00:32:42 if I had a $100,000 cash reserve that I keep for personal emergency expenses, that's not the exact number I use, but like, let's just say, you know, I think everyone who's an investor should have some amount of living expenses set aside. Most people say six months. So let's just say my six months was exactly $100,000. Could I, just keep my emergency fund in this savings account that pay no interest on this loan? Yes. And you absolutely would want to, right? Yeah. Why wouldn't you do that? So at this point, this is when individuals will come to me and say, hey, okay, this sounds so great, whatever, what's the catch, where's the fine print? And or how does the bank make any money, right? If you're not paying any

Starting point is 00:33:22 interest, how are they getting compensated? Well, because this is an open-ended line of credit that is attached to your checking and savings, there is a sweep account component. So for those that may not be familiar with this. When you think about an FDIC insured bank, how they receive much of their revenue is by lending money back out at a rate of X. Okay. So if the depository institution is going to lend out $1 per the regs and rules, they have to have in deposit $5, $10, whatever, right? That's how that plus and minus works. So because this is a sweep account at midnight every night, the deposits that are in, they go back through and they're able to show this amount in depository so they can lend out more money. So that sweep account component is where the profitability from the bank is realized.

Starting point is 00:34:08 So they can basically, even if they're not making interest, it allows them to lend out more money on which they do make interest. Correct. This is still beneficial to them. Yeah, that's a better way to say it. Got it. No, I just want to make sure I'm holding on here. Okay. Well, this is a super cool product. Last question on it before we move on is like, how do you underwrite these loans. Is it sort of like a DSCR where you're looking at the quality of the property or is it personal underwriting? Yeah, I'm glad you asked that because I always want to make a point to set the expectation. This is one of the harder underwrites a consumer is ever going to have to go through. In fact, brain damage. Okay, I want you guys to be prepared for anybody that goes after this loan.

Starting point is 00:34:50 I'm glad you're just giving it to a straight. Yeah, there's going to be some brain damage. The underwrite is fairly restrictive and qualification bar is set pretty high. example, debt to income ratio threshold is 43% versus traditionally 50%. So to your question, actually, Dave, it is not a DSCR. It is vials of blood and DNA samples, as I like a joke. But it's well worth it. If you can qualify and you're the right individual for this, any brain damage that would ensue in getting this loan, well worth the rewards after closing. Wow, seems super cool. Well, thank you for sharing this one with us. You bet.

Starting point is 00:35:25 Chaley, last question, you know, no one knows what's going to happen, but what are you expecting for the next couple of months? Do you see rates coming down a bit, more volatility, or what's your best guess? So obviously pending the reports that will be used to justify another Fed Fund rate cut, I do believe November, early November, they're going to meet again and they're going to determine whether or not there's going to be another cut. I suspect a quarter point cut. That's my opinion. How does that translate into our long-term interest rates? And does that mean that interest rates are automatically going to fall? Not necessarily. Overall, though, my answer to your question is, I do think that rates are on the way down. I think that by early 2025, I think that we'll see some additional improvement to where we are today. But do the math.

Starting point is 00:36:12 All right. Well, I'm sure for everyone listening, we are hoping that you're correct on that. Jaley, thank you so much for this very engaging and enlightening interview. I learned a lot today. I appreciate your time. I love being here. Thanks for having me, Dave. Of course. And if you want to connect with Chaley or her company, we'll put the contact information in the show notes. If you have any questions for me about this, you can always find me on Bigger Pockets or on Instagram or I'm at the Data Deli. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Bigger Pockets podcast.

Starting point is 00:36:43 We'll see you next time. Thank you all for listening to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K. Copywriting is by Calicoe content, and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.biggerpockets.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset,

Starting point is 00:37:18 real estate included, involves risk. So use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. Bigger Pocket's LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential, or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.

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