BILFPOD - Animals Need Lawyers Too: Vanessa Shakib on Animal Rights, Pet Custody & Hidden Abuse

Episode Date: July 10, 2026

Vanessa Shakib spent 8 years as a lawyer before walking away to start her own nonprofit law firm — suing the federal government on behalf of animals who legally can't speak for themselves. In this episode, Vanessa breaks down the "foreign animal lab loophole" that lets the government funnel $20 billion in taxpayer money to animal testing overseas with zero oversight, the most viral case in animal law history (a government-ordered 500-mile mission to seize and kill a little girl's pet goat), and why animal law might be the most overlooked legal field in the country — with fewer than 200 full-time lawyers doing this work nationwide. We get into how animal law touches everything from pet custody in divorce to factory farming loopholes, why "who owns this cow" turned into a full legal specialty, and what regular pet owners get wrong about where their animals actually come from. Follow Vanessa: @vanessashakib Her nonprofit: Advancing Law for Animals If you enjoyed this episode, like, subscribe, and share it with someone who needs to hear it. Real Talk. Real Truth. Real Impact.

swimming with your passion when you're swimming against it, life doesn't feel good. Every single year, the federal government, specifically the NIH, is handing out $20 billion in taxpayer money, our money, to subsidize animal experimentation. We're calling this a foreign animal lab loophole. It's illegal, right? It's the opposite of what Congress said. Welcome back to the BiltPod, where authenticity Trump's authority. So I have a question for you guys today. What happens if someone hurts your dog or your

cat? Or what happens if you're going through a divorce and you're trying to figure out who gets the dog or the cat? Well, believe it or not, there are lawyers that specialize in that. And today's guest, I'm really interested to find out all these answers. But today's guest is Vanessa Sheikib. She has dedicated her life's work to protecting animal rights and laws. Yes, that is a real thing animals have rights and laws. Welcome to the Bill Pod girl. I'm so excited to have you. Thank you for the warm welcome, Mara. So happy to be here with you today. So, okay, so let's just get in. We're going to dig in and just figure this whole thing out. So as I was like trying to read, so I have to admit, like we were talking off a little bit, I have to admit, I was reading about you and

I'm like, animal lawyer, okay? And I don't, and don't forgive me. Please forgive me. But I didn't even know that that was a thing, but it's a thing. So explain, like, where did this come from? Well, first of all, you are not alone. I always say animal law has a PR problem. Part of this is because it's a relatively new, still emerging, multidisciplinary field. So from the beginning of time, animals have always been a part of our legal system because they're considered property. So very early legal disputes would be like, who owns this cow? You took my cow. It wasn't until around the 70s, we had lawyers think, wait a minute, how can we use the law to help more animals to file cases from the animal's perspective? Right. That's how this field was born. It's super hard to explain because believe it or

not, every field of law is animal law. Right. And why is that? To touch on your point, if you're an estate planner, then you need to be providing for the care of people's animals upon their death. If you are a family law lawyer, that pre-up needs to consider companion animals if you enter the marriage with them and your divorce needs to consider animals when you leave the marriage, right? So every aspect of our life touches animals and let's zoom out and get even bigger. You might wake up and eat eggs for breakfast. Maybe you hop on your car, you're sitting on leather seats, you put on an outfit,

fit made of wool. You take some medication. That was tested on animals. So there's these animals that were aware of. There's these animals behind the scenes that make our life possible. And the question is, how are they being treated? Right. And more and more lawyers are using the law to get out that. Oh, okay. Well, you gave me a very thorough explanation. So did you all, I'm assuming that you must be an animal lover, right? You have to be an animal lover. Would I be a correct in assuming? You are. And I also want to say most of the country filled with animal lovers, 60% of people have an animal at home. They do. And there's a lot of pet lovers up there out, not up there, out there. There are tons of pet lovers. So it is kind of refreshing to know that they do have rights,

especially like, you know, we talk about, and this really just happened. Like my neighbor, granted, my dog went in the neighbor's yard. And the neighbor's dog is like five times the size of my little dog and bit her butt and like totally like started making her. I didn't do it. I didn't do anything because she went in her yard. But it's nice to know that at least they're being protected. And they do have laws. Yes, they do have laws. I'm going to make it complicated for a hot second. They have laws, but it's tough because, okay, Mara, if you have an issue, you can go to court and sue someone. Yeah. If your dog has an issue, your dog cannot be. cannot initiate a lawsuit, right? Because your dog is considered your property. Right. So you bring

the lawsuit, right, because your dog is your property. Right. So it's more straightforward in a pet situation because a pet owner is going to go to court if they need to, if their animal's been harmed, most likely. But what happens if there is a company doing illegal testing? Oh, yeah. Right? Who's going to bring their case to court. That's the question. And that's why I started my not-profit law firm. Got you. So that's what you're a huge, that's what you're an advocate about. So when you were going through law school, what were your professors thinking? Like, did you special, is there a specialty when you're going to law school, like, specializing in that? Or how did that work? Okay. There is a specialty. There are law schools around the country offering animal law clinics.

When I was in law school, I did not know that I would be an animal law. lawyer. I didn't see it coming. Wow. So I took a major career pivot. I had a normal legal job and I exploded my life to start advancing law for animals. I didn't see it coming. I had been this long time animal lover.

I had been practicing law for eight years. And I just thought something about this doesn't do it for me. You know, you have a lot of passion. I'm similar. I have a lot of passion. and when you're not swimming with your passion, you're swimming against it, life doesn't feel good, right?

It just doesn't feel great. Yeah, it makes a cool of a build, right? There's this building sense of, this isn't for me, kind of slowly feel a little zombie-esque, until it gets to a point where you think, I need to change the game. And that's what happened.

I thought my biggest passion is animals. Why aren't I? I helping them. Yeah. And I thought, well, I'm a lawyer. That's what I'm good at. I'm a really good litigator. Why don't I litigate for animals? I love that. I'm jealous. I was actually on my way to becoming a lawyer. I have a master's degree and an undergraduate degree in criminal justice. Yeah. So I always thought I was going to be a prominent, but, you know, not like this is not like the pity party about why I didn't go to law school. But it's funny what you said because, you know, yes, you can be doing what you want in life, but you have to be truly passionate.

about it. And although I didn't go to law school, I found something that I am truly passionate about and mine's helping people. So, I mean, I think it kind of, you know, it kind of coordinates, but, you know, it is a little controversial or you tell me if it's controversial where has this ever happened to you? There's, you know, indigent people that need lawyers. There's children that need lawyers. Has any, have you gotten any backlash like, come on, man, these are animals. Do they really need lawyers? Has that ever been something that is out there and a little controversial for you? Yeah, so I would say the majority of people love to hear there's animal lawyers out there, but there are those that say, what about humans?

Yeah. And I totally understand humans also shouldn't suffer. The thing is, there are already a lot of lawyers that help different populations of animal humans. But when it comes to animals, we don't have that same team of lawyers on the ready. and so this is a specialty that needs to build. I'll also know I have friends who they do animal law and other kinds of law, right? It doesn't need to be all or nothing. For the lawyers listening, I get hit up by lawyers on the regular.

I want to do animal law. I want to do animal. How can I be an animal lawyer? And the truth of it is, whatever your practice is, you can pop in some animal cases and make it work. It's not an all or nothing thing. Yeah, I love that answer. It's not that you're not, you're neglecting humans. It has, it's that there are cases out there, whether, you know, their animals are being tested or you have the, you know, you have the divorce case.

So it, I think it just makes you more eclectic, you know, that you can do that and more diverse in your portfolio of what you're able to represent. So, yeah, who cares what people have to say? Because you're not saying, at least what I'm hearing is you're not just, you know, you're not just niching. Yes, you have a niche, but you also have the capability of representing humans as well. So you're not totally rule. You're not ruling out the humans. Yeah. And let me tell you, if you're a human, it's much easier to get a lawyer.

I was just going to say, yeah. If there's an issue and you're shopping for a lawyer, it's the lack of animal lawyers is so heartbreaking. I get contacted daily about some awful issue with a dog or a cat or a veterinarian or something a neighbor did. I can't help everyone who contacts me. Yeah. But there's just not a lot of lawyers to even contact for these kinds of problems.

That's not. And you can practice in all states or are you just in one specific state or how does that work? So I'm born in the state of California and D.C. because I love suing federal agencies. Federal agencies regulate a lot of kinds of animals, including laboratory animals, animals and circuses, puppy mills. And so there's all kinds of problems with how the federal government is regulating these millions of animals. And that's been a specialty of mine. That's amazing. So tell us what is something that would shock people about animal law that they didn't know? Well, let me tell you something that still shocks me. Yeah.

I'm deep into the case. Tell me. So every single year, the federal government, specifically the NIH, is handing out 20, billion dollars in taxpayer money, our money, to subsidize animal experimentation. Now, a big chunk of that money, about 24%, is actually going to animal experimenters in foreign countries. Think Tunisia, Bangladesh, St. Kitts, previously China, previously Russia, right? So we are sending our taxpayer dollars to the tune of millions all over the world to subsidize. animal experimentation.

Wow. Point in period, most people don't know that. Okay, let's make it weirder. Congress passed this law and it makes total sense. Like, yo, what's up? If you take this money for animal experimentation, you need an animal care committee. You need to document animal welfare. And you need to report to the funder what's happening with animal welfare.

Okay. Transparency, sunshine makes total sense for anyone getting our money. Right. At the same time, NIH makes this policy and says, oh, but if you are a foreign laboratory getting this money, you don't need to do that. Wow. So this, okay, so why are foreign countries experimenting on animals on our dollar held to a lower standard than American companies on U.S. soil? So we're calling this a foreign animal lab loophole. It's illegal, right?

It's the opposite of what Congress said. And so I'm suing on behalf of taxpayer watchdog group, the White Coat Waste Project. And we want to make sure that wherever tax dollars are being spent, the highest standard for animals under the law is being adhered to. Wow. I mean, you're taking on, first of all, congratulations on taking on the federal government. That is huge. I love that you're unapologetic about it. I love how you started it.

But that is absolutely insane. But, I mean, it makes sense what, you know, you said, why outside of the country? Because that's a big loophole for them. So they can kind of get away with all this neglect and then taking our money and utilizing their, wow, wow, you just shocked me. I didn't even know that was the thing. That is absolutely crazy. It's crazy.

It gets even crazier. I really recommend people follow my client, White Co-Wa. The federal government has been experimenting on all kinds of animals, even in the U.S., including dogs and cats. And so thanks to the great work of my client, and I'm so blessed to work with trailblazers doing amazing things, the EPA has committed to a 2035 phaseout of mammalian animal testing. The Navy is the first federal agency to ban dog and cat testing. The CDC just shut down its in-house primate lab.

And the VA is ending dog, cat, and primate research. And so I think that's kind of the dirtiest little secret is all these animals, labs on taxpayer dollars. And I'm just so blessed to be a part of challenging that and represent an organization really on the front lines of this work. That's absolutely amazing. That it just goes to show, you know, your passion. And I'm sure there's so many other passionate people about pets that this is absolutely

incredible. I mean, I'm not, I like pets. I do. I wouldn't say that, you know, I'm not like over the top. but just to know that on it like full transparency but again like I wouldn't want to see any any anybody hurt for that matter but let alone pets that have no voice that's awful that's horrible that really is but congratulations to you for going above and beyond and this is part of your nonprofit agency as well or you're exactly that's what okay exactly my non-profit law firm advancing law for animals

nice that's so so how do you pick and choose which cases because you said you're inundated with tons of cases coming through. So how do you, like, how do you, like, differentiate what's most interesting or what's most important for you? You know, it's a great question. And I really think about impact. And impact can be in a lot of ways. What is a case that will help the most animals? Love it. One way to think of it. Another case is, okay, if I file this new and novel case, will other lawyers come in and do something similar and build on this new case? And then, pathway. So I think about that. I also think about, is this a case that would benefit? And is this a case that the media would want to report on so that we can also educate the public

about what's happening? So all of those things I kind of put together to really maximize not just my time, but as a nonprofit law firm, right, donor dollars, we're really going for the most impact possible. Love that. Are there any underrepresented? underrepresented animals out there? Or what would be the most underrepresented, I should say? Animals in laboratories and food production. Yeah. So the majority of donations in philanthropy that go to animals are generally going to go to

shelter issues, spay and neuter, shelter issues. That totally makes sense because that's an issue that we all really know very well. We are all very educated in that as a general public. And it's very visible. We see the dogs. We see the cats. It's at the forefront of our mind. I think what's not at the forefront are the animals that our society is built on,

that we prefer not to think about how they're treated behind closed doors. And the industry actually doesn't want us to know how they're treated behind closed doors. So we can't really know even if we want to. Gotcha. Have you ever gotten, see, this is a serious, like this is like off, but I just kind of, I kind of want to know this. Have you ever gotten attached to a case and you're, and then you end up with the animal? Like maybe like, you know what I mean? Like maybe a dog case that you're like, oh my God.

And then you ended up like adopting the animal at the end. So no, but almost. Like do you have like a zoo in your backyard? No, just kidding. Well, I mean, check this. I had a case against a laboratory for, you know, illegal business practices, the laboratory, and the details of the settlement are confidential. Yeah.

But as part of that, we were able to take out of the laboratory a llama, three goats, and 16 rabbits. Are they in your house right now? They were for a bit because we had to place these animals in sanctuary. And this was, by the way, so I first started my career. I'm, you know, negotiating this settlement. And I'm just happy to get the animals. Yeah. So, you know, okay, no, it's the llama, 16 rabbits, give them all of me.

Well, I didn't think to ask, are the rabbits spayed and neutered? And it turns out, it turns out when you're placing rabbits, people want them spayed and neutered, especially in a sanctuary. So we did have this lovely sanctuary that would take all 16 rabbits, but only once they were spayed and neutered. Okay. So I'm like, all right. So it's myself and my business partner. We're like, okay, we're going to have these 16 rabbits until they get spaded neutered. Well, then we find out it takes six months.

They need to be. I think it was six months. Then we find out fixing rabbits as a specialty. Not every vet does this, right? It became this big, complicated thing. So I had the rabbits for a while. How many bunnies did they make in between? Thankfully, thankfully, we made it through.

And those 16 went to a custom-made indoor, outdoor rabbitat up north, living their best life. The llama and the goats went to New Life Animal Sanctuary in Southern California. And so, yeah, that was a really great case to see those animals free and happy. That's so funny. All right, I'm going to have a little fun with you, okay? So Animal Law Edition. All right, I'm going to ask you, I'm going to test you what you think we know about animals in law. So you're just going to tell me true or false.

Ready? So lawyer answers only. If someone kills your pet, can you sue them for emotional distress? True or false? Yes. True. Yes. Absolutely. Factory farming practices would be illegal if they were done to dogs. A hundred percent illegal to dogs and arguably even illegal anyway, the laws are just not enforced. So that's a really lawyer answer. Okay. Here we go. breed-specific legislation, like banning pit bulls is constitutional.

You know, I've got to say I haven't dealt with the breed-specific legislation. So I can give you a good opinion on that one. Fair. Animals will have legal personhood in the U.S. within the next 20 years. From your mouth to God's ears. Maybe, right? I hope so. Maybe.

Most animal cruelty cases never result in prosecution. Is that true or false? It depends what kind of animal we're talking about. A companion animal, false, an animal in a laboratory, or farm for food. True. Wow. So, okay, so when we talk about factory farming, it's one of the most widespread form of animal sufferings on the planet. So how do you, okay, when you get these cases, walk me through a case like this. I have a case against foster farms right now on behalf of the International Welfare Organization Animal Equality. So this lawsuit centers around one particular hatchery that processes about 3 million chicks per year. Animal Quality hired an undercover investigator who got a job there and recorded what was happening.

I won't detail it, but it's a horror. It's like Halloween movie. Right. No one really wants to get into those details I've found, but it's a not good situation. Yeah. And so we were able to creatively sue them. Without getting into the legal leads, the legal weeds, excuse me, most laws that protect animals, they're criminal laws. Yeah.

So you need a prosecutor accord. The prosecutor has to be willing to get involved. So in this case, animal equality went to the prosecutor with the footage, and the prosecutor, as they often do, didn't act. So now the question is, how can we in civil court, civil means private party against private party, apply this criminal law that a prosecutor won't enforce. So we have, we develop creative workgrounds. California has this law that says, hey, it's called the unfair competition law. hey, if you're a business, you can't engage and work in a manner that is unlawful, unfair, or fraudulent. Wow.

So we're like, okay, let's put this all together. If that's the case, you violate that unfair competition law when you systematically violate state anti-cruity laws to cut costs and up profits. So that legal theory has been viable. We are in discovery. We've retained experts on. on the issue of suffering, on the issue of hatchery operations, and we hope to make animal law history with this case. Wow. Okay, this might be a stupid question, but I have to ask. So when you're, when people are suing or whatever, when you're prosecuting case, the animals, do they, because,

you know, people sue for money, right? That's usually what, so are the animal, this might sound stupid, but are you trying to, are you trying to reinforce their rights? Do you get like a stipend back to, you know, so they can continue testing in a more, I guess, in a more humane. That's not probably the right word. But what are you suing for? I guess that's my question. Great question. Okay. So here's the bottom line. Eating animals is legal. Animal experimentation is legal. Right. So my job as a lawyer is to, like, hone in, okay, but what are the illegal practices around it? Like, yes, you can do it legally if you follow certain rules. Once you step over the line, right, we're coming for you. So the question is businesses stepping over the line with illegal practices. Gotcha. And so what I can do as a lawyer

in civil court is I can work to, I can ask for an injunction, which is a court order to change practice, right? So trying to change practices. Now, you're asking about the monetary piece, certain state like California, do have a public interest attorney's fee recovery law. TLDR, if you file a case for the public interest and you prevail, you're entitled to collect your attorney's fees from the defendant. And so that's something that I've relied on. Gotcha. That makes sense.

And can I ask you another question? This might sound stupid. When people decide they want to take this, they want to take legal action on this, are they taking legal action because of the harm that it could cause the animals or because of the harm that it could cause humans ultimately, because if they're testing, I'm assuming if they're testing, let's just say lab rats, right? Because a lot of, we know a lot of drugs are tested on lab rats or whatever. Are they suing because of the harm of the rats or because of the potential harm that it could cause humans? I don't know if that's a stupid question, but I figured I was like, I wonder that.

Okay. It's a really good question. And you're hitting at the heart. of the problem and the difficulty of my field. Oh, I love you already. Right. Animals don't have standing to go into court. The rat cannot sue the extoller. Right. Okay. So who has standing to sue without going into a long nerdy soliloquy.

The person who has standing to sue has to meet a test invented by the court. Right. Do you have a certain kind of harm that the law recognizes? So now you have animal lawyers trying to be creative. How can we match the kind of harm the court requires? I'll give you some examples. The example against foster farms, we're relying on a legal rule that says if you are a nonprofit and there is an illegal activity that has thwarted your mission and has diversed.

your resources, that is enough economic harm to give you standing in court. Gotcha. And this is a theory most lawyers are not familiar with. You can be creative and out of the box, like food animals. Let me just give you an example. If there's a factory farm illegally polluting and perhaps your property is polluted as a result, right? Like you would have standing as a property owner. That's a hypothetical. But you have to get really creative in animal law because animals can't go to court, right? We have to go for them.

And we have to figure this out. Like proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You can't, that's not going to uphold, right? It's not that it's a totally different term. I mean, it's so fascinating what you're doing because I do think that part of it is, you know, when we're testing on labs, obviously they're trying to test things too to see if it's okay for humans. And if they're doing it, let's just say, not inhumane. What's another word that you can, if they're doing it inappropriately or something that's not by the book, it could ultimately cause harm to humans. So it is really important that there are people or advocates out there because they are in retrospect advocating for animals and in turn humans. So it is great that there's many, how many people are in your practice or not in your

practice in your niche fields. Do you know how many lawyers there are? In the niche field, full-time lawyers? Yeah. I would say maybe 100 to 200 full-time. Wow. It's not many. It's really not many. And that's why I always say animal law has a PR problem. Yeah. There are there are more lawyers who will take on pro bono cases, do a side case, right? But in terms of full-time, It's a small field. Now, do you think that law schools are going to start offering it more, offering this specific niche? Or you can advocate for that. They are.

Yeah, you know what? They already have. Harvard has a clinic. Vermont law school has a clinic. GW has a clinic, right? The clinics are populating. So we see law students have this growing interest. Now we have an issue on the other side, jobs.

And so what I tell people is, right, the not. nonprofits who do this work, those are small. They're limited in number. And so it's a really important to think about how to incorporate animal law in your private practice or everyday practice. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Now, I know that you're really big on educating people. You use social media to educate people about pet laws. And you have a great way of explaining things without, you know, you definitely kiss. Keep it simple, stupid. Because even the verbage you're using makes it so much easier. and, you know, you just, you are well-spoken, so it makes so much sense that you're on Instagram or in social media. So what is like one big thing that you want pet owners to know?

One thing, one big thing that I want pet owners to know. That is, it's such a broad question, right? I'm thinking what kind of pets, what kind of species? You know, I think it's, I think one thing that I would love pet owners to know is when you, you go to a pet store to buy an animal, it doesn't mean that that animal came from a safe place. Yeah. Right? What's how are pet stores filled with animals?

There's commercial breeders behind the scenes. They're factory farming animals. They're not animals for food, but they're factory farms to be our pets. And so I think whether it's birds, whether it's dogs, whether it's cats, that's how animals get into a pet store. And I think if you go to a pet store because you are an animal lover, right? You're there because you connect with animals. Yeah. Like an animal in your life.

And so connecting those dots, I think is really important and thinking about how rescue could be a part of shaping your family out of a visit to the pet store. So maybe for pet owners, they should ask a lot of questions, especially if they're going to a pet store. Because I know it's very known, the puppy mills. And I personally won't buy from a puppy store because of the puppy mills. So typically, like, I'll buy from a breeder direct. Is that, would that be like, I mean, you just said, you know, rescue animals. So I would say, you know, educate yourself before you're buying from that specific pet store. Because how many pet store cases have you had where you ultimately find out that they're, you know,

they have a whole puppy mill going on? You know, what's interesting is I haven't litigated against pet stores. I've litigated against the USDA over illegal regulations applied to. dog and cat breeders. So I've been on sort of the back end because what we found out was the USDA is supposed to enforce the Animal Welfare Act. It's supposed to benefit animals. But instead, the agency is thinking of the breeders as the client. They want to provide customer service to the breeder as opposed to thinking about the welfare of animals like the law says. So I've been involved on the back end. And I think that's why I think at the end of the day, we're in a pickle because

people aren't seeing what's happening behind the scenes with animals. And I would love to see a world where we're slowly growing mindfulness and thinking about it more. We see this a lot with like waste. You know, right now, most homes, they recycle. People are more and more taking a reasonable bag to the store. Maybe they're going to bring their coffee mug to get coffee or not get a to go cup. We're seeing this mindfulness around waste slowly build. And, you know, my dream is for that slow building mindfulness around animals. Yeah. I do you think like honest answer, do you think that the relationship with humans and animals will evolve into like maybe a more equally filtered relationship? Like with the same type of right.

You know, I hope that's in our future. I think technology might change the game in the interim. For example, we might have clothes from synthetic materials more broadly sooner, right? The animal experimentation could be displaced by alternatives. So I think technology will help us. And I look forward to that transition. Yeah, I think people are a little bit more conscious. Like even when you go to some of the theme parks, they'll take the caps off on purpose. just to make sure that, you know, none of the, it doesn't get stuck in the, the bird's mouth or the fish. So I think, I mean, just from, you know, the last 10 years in general, it's slow. I mean, progression is slow.

You know how it works here in general. But I do think that people are a little bit, a lot more pet conscious. A lot more people are, you know, when they're wearing their furs, they always make a point to say it's like foe. It's not real, you know. So I do think that, at least I hope. I hope that we're going in the right direction because animals, look, they're so cute. and they can't advocate for themselves, honestly. So it is important that we protect them.

But, okay, so last question. What's something that you've never outwardly spoken about, but you really want to educate about? Or you haven't come out yet and spoken about? I think there's something really interesting going on right now that if you have three minutes, you can call your member of Congress. So more and more states are passing laws banning pork from gestation crates, banning pork from animals who were pigs who were raised in gestation

crates, meaning cramped in a tiny cage. California, for example, passed Prop 12 that famously set these minimum space requirements for breeding pigs and veal calves and egg laying hens. Since that happened in California, every year a member of Congress tries to pass a law to X out the progress of these state animal welfare laws. It's failed every year. But right now, in the Farm Bill, on page 800, buried in the Farm Bill, is a provision that if passed, would prevent states from banning pork from pigs in gestation crates. And so that's something, it's called the Sabre Bacon Act, but it actually is really bad for pigs. And so that's That's something if you have a few minutes to call your member of Congress would be really important

to make sure we keep our high standards in animal welfare. That's amazing. Now, what's next for you? You're advocating for animals. You have your nonprofit firm. What is next for you? Mara, I'm writing my first book. Oh, there you go.

Can you say the name or no? The name is still being shot. We're still working on the name. I have a case that went viral. It's the most viral case in animal law history about a bunch of government officials who worked together to drive over 500 miles and kill a little girl's pet goat. Actually, they held him for three weeks and then they killed him. And so this has had viral media attention for years. And so I'm turning it into a book. Wait, what? Say that again. There was 500 federals that took a little girl's pet goat?

There was a group of government employees who worked together to drive 500 miles to illegally seize a little girl's goat. She wanted to save his life. They wanted to make sure that this goat was returned and slaughtered. So Cedar is the most famous goat in the world because this case exploded because everyone can understand child, animal, police misconduct. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Wow. So you're going to write all of the. I want to read this book when it comes out. I'm interested. So, and if anybody wants to find you or they need your services or they just want to check out your interesting stories, where would they find you? I'm on Instagram, Vanessa Shakit. My nonprofit is on every social media at advancing law for animals. I'm so easy to find Vanessa, animal lawyer.

You'll get my email. I love that. I have to admit, I went into today. conversation, not open-minded at all. But I am leaving completely open-minded and a lot more aware of pets and their rights and how important it is for the animals to be protected. So I just want to thank you for educating me. You know, you're always learning and you definitely, you definitely helped educate me. And I'm sure the audience on animal rights and why it's so important what you're doing every day and advocating. And it's also important to know that you're not just, you know, you're not,

You're not neglecting the humans, but, you know, you want to help out the animals as well. So if you guys like today's episode, go ahead, like, subscribe. Unlike, do something. Refer a friend. But if you like today's conversation with Vanessa, there are many, many more lovely conversations. But I want to thank you for spending some time with me this afternoon. You are so lovely. I love the way that you explain everything so down to earth.

And we'll have to like pick up this conversation. I have to know more about the animal rights. We're going to have to do another pod. I would love that. Thank you for having me on. Animals need lawyers. And I'm really happy to be on here with you. Aw, you did great girl. That was amazing.