Bill Meyer Show Podcast - Sponsored by Clouser Drilling www.ClouserDrilling.com - 01-15-25_WEDNESDAY_8AM

Episode Date: January 16, 2025

Retired land use consultant Bob Hart does a deep dive and talks with listeners about the wildfire map letters, the appeals, possible angles of attack, thinks everyone needs to appeal their rating.

The Bill Myers Show podcast is sponsored by Clouser Drilling. They've been leading the way in Southern Oregon well drilling for over 50 years. Find out more about them at clouserdrilling.com. Elaine Kirby writes me this morning about the inauguration bill. Will Trump be president on the 20th without a formal inauguration? I don't, well, you know, the vote has been certified. Technically, everything has been done except the inauguration, which is the

official swearing in so if you don't get sworn in are you president i don't believe so elaine but uh i can't say that i'm a uh you know the best constitutional scholar but it would seem that part of the legal process would be you have to have the swearing in you're not official until you're sworn in which is why we even have these swearing in ceremonies of our local officials, whether it's mayor, county commissioner, et cetera, et cetera. All right? All right. Appreciate you emailing Bill at BillMeyersShow.com. Bob Hart joins me right now.

Bob Hart lives in Rogue River. He is a retired land use planner. Well, not a planner, but you were an advisor, right? A consultant of some sort here uh bob welcome back to the show good to have you on uh thanks bill good to be here all right and i imagine you have a lot to say here about the attack which has been brought against us here in southern oregon having to do with the fire maps the wildfire risk maps, and the letters have been going out via certified mail, although even that's kind of a weird certified mail.

I ended up talking with a mail person yesterday saying there was a special deal cut so that they could get all of those letters sent to property owners and that they would technically be certified mail, but yet they didn't have the sign for it. Kind of a weird thing going there. I don't know if there's a legal play to be made on that. But a lot of folks are hot and bothered over this. Do they have reason to be, in your view, as a land use consultant? Absolutely.

You know, this is no better than the first map that came out. You know, they did a little bit of tweaking here and there, but it's really the same problems that they had with the first map. And when everybody came out as in opposition, they pulled it back, said, yeah, we kind of jumped the gun on it, so let's go back and fix it. Like I said, there was a little bit of tweaking for agricultural irrigated land, but it didn't change that much. The biggest problem from my perspective is there's really no way to verify anything that they did. I've gone through the information that they sent, which is minimal. It's basically a bunch of forms and some propaganda saying, here's our things that you can call us and we'll help you.

But to get further into it, then you've got to go online to their wildfire website and download your property owner's report. And then you start looking at everything that's in there. And it's, you know, nice, pretty pictures, but it still gives no real data. And there's a place on the property owner's report that says the publicly information that's available is at this download site. So I went to that download site and downloaded their information. And it's a lot of computer files. And I clicked on them to open them up, and it says you need some kind of a program to open it. And when I went to that, they said, well, there's no program available. That's really interesting. So they're not putting information out on an easily readable document or PDF,

some kind of form that most anybody would be able to take a look at. So you need a specialty program to be able to look at the data? That seems weird. Very odd. That's what it appears like. And when I've talked to them before and said, you know, where do you get your data? They talk about this commercial program that is supposed to figure out fire issues. In other words, it is modeling information.

It's not people going out and surveying the ground. It's a computer model of sorts, from what I hear. Yes, it is a computer model. And when I asked them about the specifics, they said, well, we've done thousands and thousands of these computer models, and that's how we came up with our final findings, is through this generation of computer modeling. Okay. Computer modeling using what? Do you know what the input used is for that? No, because that's the issue that I'm trying to track down is what information do they have, and it's not available to me

or anybody else in a user-friendly form, because the statute requires four criteria to look at it, weather, climate, topography, and vegetation. Okay. Well, how can they even make a judgment call on vegetation? Because vegetation is probably already or always changing, or am I wrong about that assumption? It is constantly changing. I know I look at the air photos of my property here, and trees have been cut down that I know I look at the air photos of my property here and trees have been cut down that I know I did and it doesn't show up.

And they're not using the latest and greatest information. When you talk to Jackson County, they said that they looked at the information that the state had provided to them saying you know here's what we're looking at and the county came back and said you've got the wrong number of tax lots you've got structures in the wrong location and vegetation isn't as it currently exists the other aspect i would think that it weakens the state's case here, Bob, is that the way this map was done, if I understand it correctly, with the hearings and all the other stuff, according to Mr. X, Ed, a listener who is a pretty good legal researcher around here, is that this was done by volunteers with the Oregon State University system. This is not even a professional group or a professional organization which was hired to do this, or am I wrong about that too? Well, when the bill was adopted by the legislature, it assigned Oregon State University as the entity in charge of preparing the map in conjunction with the Oregon Department of Forestry. Well, that sounds really nice, but what expertise does the Oregon University system have when it comes to wildfire fighting and prevention?

I mean, it's a reasonable question to pose, isn't it? Yes, it is a reasonable question to pose. And they've got their professors that have, quote, their experience or expertise in the field, but nobody I know of, when questions have been asked, have you been out fighting fires? Do you know anything on the ground? And they, no, they didn't have experience of being actual firefighters, but they've talked to people that have done it.

Oh. So that's what it all is, is just consensus. All right. Well, we've had a lot of criticism of the consensus process brought in by the Oregon University system into many aspects of our government. That is for sure. Bob, and all I know is that listeners are coming unglued they're writing me they're wondering what they should be doing you know about this and do you and and how would could you take us through the process of what it would take to appeal i noticed though before we

go to that that if you are a corporation or kind of like a bigger boy, you have to appeal using a lawyer, but regular property owners can do it themselves, I suppose, right? Yes and no. Yes and no. Okay. Yes and no. And let me explain that. As you said, the bigger boys, corporations, businesses, LLCs, they are required to have an attorney. If the property is in a trust, you have to use an attorney. I would imagine there are many rural lands, maybe farms, things like that, that would be in a trust. Would that be fair? Yeah, farms, a lot of times people put their trust for taxing purposes or for looking at how to put things outside of a will but in a trust to avoid death taxes and transfer. So there is a requirement you have to have an attorney for a trust. I brought it up to the Wildfire Advisory Council.

They said, oh, that is an issue, but it never got changed or fixed because when SB 80, the, quote, course corrections from SB 762, when they adopt Senate Bill SB 80, that is when the appeals process was required to be a contested case, and it put it into a very legalistic system that's covered in ORS 183. Yeah, but from what I understand, and tell me if I'm wrong here, Bob. By the way, I'm talking with Bob Hart. He's a retired land use consultant from Rogue River. And a lot of people are upset with the fire maps, courtesy of Senate Bill 762, and even after the Senate fix like Bob was talking about. Correct me if I'm wrong. These are administrative courts.

So these aren't even constitutional courts, really. These are administrative law judges that you'll be going before that are, in essence, hired by the state. And won't they essentially have their thumb in favor of the state of Oregon in what they want to do here? Well, like you said, yes, they are hired by the state of Oregon. They are administrative law people. So they aren't from the Department of Forestry or people that are hired by Oregon State. It's out of the administrative office. But it's still a legalistic system, and it's supposed to be based in criteria and a lot of the technical issues. Because one of the things that really started the whole ball rolling in a wrong direction was when people figured out that if they had their property all cleaned up and there was no reasonable expectation of a fire,

say there was no house and it was paved, you'd still be in the high-fire danger area, and there's no way to get out of it. And it would seem then that heads they win, tails you lose, in this wildfire letter appeal kind of process, the way the law is written? That's the bottom line. Yes, they've stacked the deck in their favor, and it's going to be difficult. But hopefully the legal system of the United States will prevail because what I'm going to do when I appeal mine is not based on what I've done for my defensive area or home hardening or anything like that. They did not follow the statute in how they did this because it's supposed to be transparent and based on science.

And there's only those four criteria. And when you read their information here, they said, oh, it's consistent with that criteria. It doesn't say that it is based on that criteria because there's nothing in the record. And that's one of the foundations of this is what is the evidence in the record that it's based on weather and climate and topography and vegetation? What you're telling me then is that the state of Oregon's fire map strategy is a simulacrum of law. It's a law that just has the appearance of law, but not the law in reality, not based in law in reality. Right, because when you read the information that they sent out, it says, here's where we get the number.

It's based on burn probability and fire intensity. I found one number in the information that was online, but I didn't find the mathematical calculations to come up with their hazard number or value to get the rating. So when I try and ask them, give me the information, they say, well, here we used all that, and that's in these computer simulations, and we've done it and had peer reviews of it with professionals in this fire community. So we're confident that this is reality. All right. This sounds very much to me, Bob, and it's just an opinion of mine. I'm not an expert on these kind of things, land use or wildfire fighting. But this reminds me of the computer models that they would always talk about with climate change, global warming.

Am I wrong to kind of see how this seems to be rhyming a little bit? Like, you know, we can't prove it, but our model says that this is what we can expect in the future. That's my take on this whole thing. The other part that this reminds me of is the Wizard of Oz behind the green curtain pulling the levers. There's really nothing back there except somebody that is big and powerful in driving people away. All right. Bob Hart, once again, and he is a land use consultant, retired land use consultant from Rogue River. We appreciate his acumen on this one. I want to be clear that you are going to appeal your ruling or the ruling that the state had on your particular property,

but it sounds like you are challenging the process. Is that what I'm understanding? You're actually calling out the process then? Yes. Saying that they do not follow state law because you have not put evidence in the record that is available to the public and that is in the record that is available to the public, and that is in the statute, is that it has to be transparent and understandable to the public. I don't care what the professors say.

I, as a member of the public, need to see their work. Well, you need to see the work. You need to see their work. You need to see the work. You need to see the formulas. You need to see the empirical evidence, in other words. Right. Okay. Yeah. All right.

Tell if there's a mathematical error when I can't see the basic evidence or the information that they're basing it on. All right. Bob, I appreciate that. Bob, would you be willing to talk to a few people about this, too? And and just maybe just I know we're all kind of just we're working without without a clear vision of how to move forward here. And I'm trying to to get out of the fire smoke that seems to be thrown up before we take a break. And then we'll go to some calls here. Is it worth, at this point, getting involved with the legislatures?

Like, I know that Senator Golden, who, of course, is one of the people that was the key sponsor of this bill on the Senate side, along with Pam Marsh on the House, he's having a town hall meeting tomorrow. Is it worthwhile at this point, or is this just so baked in the cake you can't do anything about it? Well, people thought that when 762 was adopted and when people came out of the woodwork and said, this isn't right, they withdrew it. And I'm hoping the same thing would happen because I haven't seen anybody that's really happy with the whole process. All right. And so, I mean, there's some other things that, you know, I want to cover a little bit here in the contested case requirement. It says you have the opportunity to ask questions of the people, you know, pointed questions.

And then when I talked to ODF yesterday and I said, who specifically can I talk to to answer my questions? They said, the way this whole thing works is you put in your appeal form and raise your issues, and then the administrative law person will decide if you can ask those questions of the university or ODF or whatever experts they use. You're kidding me. They will decide what questions you as a citizen are allowed to ask about your fire map rating? Really? Yes. Yeah, they'll decide whether you can ask the questions or are they just off the wall and don't have any basis.

Because I won't raise the issue at all about my defensive space because that's not the criteria. The criteria is where is weather involved, where is climate involved, what are the issues that you use to talk about the vegetation and the topography. Because my land is flat here in Rogue River. I've got trees across the road and a hill behind me, but my property is clean. So what vegetation issues numerically are involved in the calculation of my fire hazard. Because when I look at the letter that they provided me, they said, I'm a real overachiever here. I am in the top one-half of one percent of high hazard. It says only 0.54% of the properties in Oregon have a higher hazard value

than I have. Boy, you are a high achiever. Bob Hart, retired land use consultant with me. Bob, is there anything else you want to cover this morning before talking to a few listeners or anything else? If we don't appeal, then this thing is going to keep going. So we need to appeal whether you're going to have success or not. The state and Jeff and Pam need to know that the people are not happy. Because when you look at this whole program and the bottom line of it, nothing in this program that they've proposed would have had any effect on the Alameda or the Oban Chain fire. Absolutely nothing. But I can't help but think that the real goal is to have Senate Bill 762 having control of that property for the future. Is that a fair theory here?

Yeah, because LCDC hasn't come in with their final proposal, because I can see the handwriting on the wall as if you're in high-fire danger, it's going to be awfully difficult, if not impossible, to put a house. Yeah, that's the real goal. Yeah, that's the real goal. I think that's the real goal. And this is something that is worthy of bringing up with Senator Golden. Hey, Bob, hang on, and we'll take a quick break here, talk about some great businesses here, and then take some calls,

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to be stacked in which heads they win, tails you lose as a property owner. And this does not seem to be something right. Bob is talking about actually challenging the process on this in his appeal. Let me talk with Brad. Brad, you're on the Planning Commission, right? Yeah, we're on the Jackson County Planning. Is that fair enough? Yeah, Jackson County Planning Commission.

So Bob raises some really good points on the procedural side. This is where I remind you what you already know is, if you look at the climate-friendly equitable, yeah. Community. Climate-friendly, yeah. So, again, it was the governor's issue of the executive order, which had the impact of law, but the legislature. So the good thing about this is that it's actually a law,

which means the legislature can modify it or mitigate it if they want to, so at least it's not administrative. Bob raises some very serious procedural issues, but here's something else that you and Bob may want to discuss. Because it also makes reference to the building code side, it's Oregon Revised Statute 455612, Building Code Standards for Wildlife Hazard Mitigation. If you look at the text and the letter that everybody got, it says if you're a homeowner, you don't have to do anything right now. But here's the other part of that. Oregon revises their building code every 36 months, and it would not take much of an imagination to think to yourself, well, two years, three years from now, if the building code division decides to make this stuff mandatory or if you can't sell your property unless you do these things, there's going to be one heck of an economic impact down the road not too far.

In other words, you're talking about the time bomb of the building code since it's built into this law, right? There is a gigantic time bomb built into this, and nobody's looking at it because it doesn't hit right now. All right. That's a really interesting statement. Did you realize that, Bob? Yes, I can see that. Just like right now, this stuff only applies to people that are in the high hazard area and within the wildland urban interface. Yeah, the WUI.

I can see somebody strike out WUI and just say, if you're in high hazard. So at the stroke of a pen, it's going to affect hundreds of thousands more properties. By the way, these letters only went out to high hazard in the WUI, right? That's correct. Okay, good. Yeah, because I ended up looking up my own property. I'm within the city limits of Medford, so they're claiming that I'm a moderate impact. But if you were to cross Foothill, not too far from where I live, then you're into the high world, you know, that kind of thing.

So let me go to John. Hey, John, you are on with Bob Hart. Go ahead. Yeah, I have a little different, well, sort of the same perspective. I consider mine as very high hazard, and I've done what I can to mitigate that. And I understand that I take my own responsibility. But then the other part of it is I consider that I do not own my land because if I don't pay taxes, I don't on my land as a human being, as a right to be a human being, and to live on my land as the government continues to infringe on our rights. What would you say to that, Bob, what John was just mentioning there? It's an interesting thought-provoking idea.

It's always a concern as we've looked at things over the years from land use perspective. You know, people come to me, you know, that they want to do things with their property. I tell them, don't put it off because every time we turn around, the rules always get tighter and tighter and tighter because they're taking more control, and it's only if the people will rise up and say, you know, enough. This is supposed to be we the people, and we are not supposed to be beholden to government. They are supposed to be our servants. Well, you know, apparently the way this is sounding with this wildfire mapping situation, it's supposed to be we the people, not we the state university that we're supposed to be dancing to the tune. And it's we the state university right now for what you're describing, Bob. You know, it's what a bunch of kids and professors end up coming up with a computer model and you can't see the data.

I mean, this reminds me very much of people wanting to look at the software of voting machines right and you're told oh it's proprietary well you can't see this sort of stuff just trust us the numbers are good you know that kind of thing it's bizarre appreciate the call there john larry's in grants pass hi larry you're with bob hart go ahead good morning bill uh morning bob yes uh just uh just in reference to what I believe to be the conversation that I got the tail end of here, I just got what appears to be a certified letter, which is not that. It's just a certified letter. It's a clear envelope. Yep, a lot of people have been getting them right now, Larry.

Many people have been calling. So, yes, that's all I'm bringing to the page. I just 11 front and back pages, 22 pages of garbage that, yeah, the front page appears to be a very serious thing if you have a piece of property. And, yeah, as I'm sure it is, nobody really takes a look at this, but I'm familiar enough and I'll say opinionated enough that this is just not, I guess, in the world we live in, not surprising that this kind of a letter is being mailed to homeowners. Well, the one thing I would say is that, yeah, it looks like a lot of blah, blah, blah, but I would warn you here, Larry, that it's as serious as a heart attack and its implications. Oh, absolutely, Bill. I'm not diminishing that fact of the matter. I realize that. Like I say, I'm aware enough about this stuff and have an opinion enough that I have to be careful. Did you have a question for Bob, though, while you're here? No, nothing at all. Okay, well, thanks for sharing your opinion.

Yeah, you're in good company with a lot of folks right now. Let me go back to the phones. What was that, Bob? Go ahead. I looked up on the Postal Service website to double-check on the certified mail. The way I see it on the Postal Service website, it says this is to guarantee that the sender knows that the letter went out. It's not required to be signed for. It's not a registered letter. It's not return receipt requested. It's just certified, so it provides

a record for the state saying that we mailed you a letter yeah yeah we notified you yeah we notified you of how serious this is if uh for some reason you were in the hospital and didn't notice it and it got thrown away well too bad for you sucks to be you in essence is what you know happened yeah yeah uh so they're claiming that this is almost like legal notification which it really isn't. I don't think it would be accepted in a court of law, but we are talking about administrative rules, which means it may be a way lower standard, wouldn't you say? Yeah, because we do have the OARs that are involved in here, Section 629 of the administrative rules that provides a lot of this stuff. And that's always the problem. And every time I talk to one of our elected representatives, I said,

we have to stop these administrative rules. We're supposed to be a country of laws and not a bunch of edicts from a ruling class. Now, here's a question I'd have for you, Bob, and we're going to take a quick break, and then we'll take a few more calls, and then we're going to have to wrap because we're just out of time for the show. And that is, can our local governments appeal this and stop it? Yes. The statute, I read it specifically, it says the property owner and local governments can appeal so i started talking to at least one county commissioner here in jackson county and i'll be talking to one in josephine county next because it says specifically that the local government can appeal the map.

And can you appeal the entire map for the entire county being a county representative? Let's say if the Jackson or Josephine County or Douglas and all the other ones get involved. It's not specific if it's a blanket or if it's property by property. It just says the local government and property owners. Okay. I would conclude that if you give the authority to the county or local government to appeal, that it would cover everything in their jurisdiction. Yeah, that would make sense.

Not make sense. Not just county-owned property, you know, out there. That's what I was kind of wondering about, okay? All right. We'll be right back with Bob Hart. If you are on hold, we will get right back with you. This is the Bill Myers Show on KMED. Do you take safe drinking water for granted?

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you're hearing the bill myers show on 106.3 kmed by the way remember the 14th annual wipeout hunger drive over at kelly's automotive is on right now all you gotta do is bring in 40 ounces or more of peanut butter 10 or more ounces of jelly to either the Grants Pass or Medford locations. They'll put a pair of brand new windshield wipers on your car valued up to $35, and you're helping of course feed the hungry, too, around here in Southern Oregon. And all this week, all the donations up to $500

will be matched by Midland Empire Insurance. Very nice. Means your donations are doubled. Okay? Kelly's Automotive Service and Midland Empire Insurance making a difference out there and it's certainly worth your time to help out okay bob hart retired land use consultant with us this morning we're talking about the wildfire map and let me go to jerry in eagle point jerry you had a question for bob go ahead yeah okay i've got my land. I've got 52 acres west of or east of Ashland, and I put it into a trust for tax purposes.

And the way I'm understanding it, I have to have a lawyer to be able to appeal it. And that is true, right? That is right, Bob, what he just said? So he has to have a, yeah, you've got to have a lawyer. Sorry. Okay. Now, also, too, the way I understand this thing is if I cut every tree to the ground, get rid of every bit of brush, I would still be in high risk. That's correct. You could paint it and you'd still be in the high risk. Yeah. Yeah. And you see still be in the high risk. Yeah. Yeah, and you see, Jerry, follow the science.

It's from the same people who told you to follow the science, right? Yeah, that's it. All right, that does appear to be what's going on here. Diana. Hello, Diana. Good to hear from you. What's going on? Hi, hi.

Good morning. A couple different things first i wanted to say i agree wholeheartedly with uh mr hart when he says that people should appeal because an appeal can be like a protest you know you're appealing and you're saying these are my objections and even if they've decided maybe you can they can't answer or we're not allowed to ask those questions, it's still a way to protest. Another thing is I'm still going through 1,400 pages of the Smart Growth Legislative Guide by the American Planning Association

that came about around the year 2000. It is a comprehensive agenda on smart growth land use. I would really recommend that he – I could get the information to you so you could post it so people could see it. And I will be doing a presentation next month on this. All right. Very good, Diana. Sorry about that. The fire maps are a way to get people off their property and get them in the cities.

That's what they want to do. Diana, thank you for the call. And I don't think you disagree with that, Bob, right? Not at all. Okay. Now let me go to Wild Salmon Steve. Steve, you're on with Bob Hart, land use consultant, retired. Hey, Bill, if something smells, there's something rotten, right? Yeah. Okay. If you get that map and scroll into the most granular view that you can get, and then move around the map, you will find individual tax lots that are one or two

levels lower in fire hazard, and it's by tax lots. Now, how can a tax lot completely surrounded by another category of fire hazard be different, even though they say if you pave your property, it would still be the same. It makes no sense. What would you say to that, Bob? It's an interesting point that Steve brought up. It's part of the algorithms of the programs they're using, because part of the issue of how you're being categorized is not just your property, but they look at property within a mile and a half and see what the vegetation and topography is there to figure out what's the probability of the burn and the intensity. But you're not allowed to look at the calculations and the math that they come up with for these numbers, correct? Right, because we're too stupid to understand it, I guess. to look at the calculations and the math that they come up with for these numbers, correct?

Right, because we're too stupid to understand it, I guess. Or else maybe they would realize that it's really Oz at the controls here, Bob. We're practically out of time now, so we're going to have to just kind of start working this at this point. Do you think that— The deadline on this to file an appeal is March 7th. March 7th. So that's the time that we're looking at now. And you're going to appeal, you're appealing the process. Do you agree with Diana that practically everyone should just appeal, if nothing else, almost like a Cloward-Piven, where you just kind of take the system, where you just overwhelm them with this? I don't know.

Yes. Yes. Because until they find out how much people are affected and how many people are opposed to this, they're just going to keep going, a big juggernaut, until somebody puts a stick in their spokes and having more people appeal is the best way to do it. All right. Another question I have for you, Jeff Golden having his town hall tomorrow, and what would you ask him? We have the opportunity to ask him a question about this. I'd like to.

I'm going to see if I can get him on the program. I haven't talked to him in years because I'm just not much in agreement with him, but it's his bill that has led us to this point. Yeah, I've talked to Jeff at length on a number of things. What I'd ask him now is why is this so complex that nobody can see how this thing works? And if we can't see how this thing works, and by the way, we're supposed to be governed by consent of the governed. Obviously, we're not consenting to this, and yet they're doing it anyway. And you can't see the math.

And even the laws, by, you know, state law is supposed to be understandable by regular people. By regular people, you're not supposed to have to be an attorney to understand what they're trying to do here. Or a PhD. Yeah. Okay. We'll do that. I'll see if I can get him on the program. Okay. I appreciate your call. And Bob, great having you on and stay in touch. And if there's anything that comes out of a lot of left field that you'd like to make sure people know about as you appeal, please get in touch. All right. Thank you very much. Bob Hart, retired land use consultant from Rogue River. It is 856 at KMED. Rain is synonymous with the Pacific Northwest. While we love the rain for many reasons, your home may not. That's where Terra Firma comes in. Pooled or standing water

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