Bill Meyer Show Podcast - Sponsored by Clouser Drilling www.ClouserDrilling.com - 03-20-25_THURSDAY_7AM

Episode Date: March 21, 2025

Dr. John G. West discusses STOCKHOLM SYNDROME CHRISTIANITY: Why Americas Christian Leaders Are Failing - and What We Can Do About It. Journalist and Author JACK CASHILL talks George Floyd and J6 conspiracies and why that still matters.

The Bill Myers Show podcast is sponsored by Clauser Drilling. They've been leading the way in Southern Oregon well drilling for over 50 years. Find out more about them at clauserdrilling.com. Looking forward to talking with Dr. John West, and he is with the Discovery Institute. He has a book out, Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, Why Americans, Christians, why America's rather Christian leaders are failing and what could be done about that. Dr., it's great to have you on, and first off, welcome. Good morning.

Bill, thanks for having me. Tell us a little bit about your work with the Discovery Institute and what you're all about, maybe which chairs you hold, etc. What do you do there? Oh, okay. So before coming to Discovery, I was a college professor for 12 years at Seattle Pacific University and chaired the Poli Sci department there. And then at Discovery, I'm overall vice president, but probably most of my work has been in a program called the Center for Science and Culture, which is probably most notorious

for supporting scientists like Michael Beehe and Stephen Meyer, who think there's evidence of design and purpose in nature, that we're not just a blind random accident. We also deal with some of the abuse of science, abuse of totalitarianism in the name of science, some of which we saw during the COVID crisis, and some other things of sort of abuse of science. It's interesting that you brought up the abuse of science. The other day I was watching a video, I think it came from the FEE people, and there was an interview with Carl Sagan shortly before he died, and this is in the late 1990s. He was talking about the abuse of science

and that the scientific process is not just a body of knowledge but it's also the ability to question. I thought it was quite thought-provoking what he had mentioned there. It sounds like you're kind of within that realm of being able to question but in this particular case questioning Christianity itself and our leaders these days? Is that sort of where you're taking the argument in the book? Yeah, I mean the argument is a lot of Christians, or just more morally more traditional people, they like to blame the leftists for everything. And I think that there's some truth to that.

But my book really is focused on the realization that many self-identified Christians, whether they're in politics or entertainment or academia, are actually facilitating the things that many, you know, Christians or traditionally-minded Jews or others are worried about, and so that we sort of have to clean our own house. So, for example, the most powerful scientist in America for more than a decade was a guy named Francis Collins. He headed the NIH, the National Institutes of Health. But if you – and he was a dev devout evangelical Christian, but if you actually

looked at how he governed, it wasn't... I mean, it was just like the secularists. So, for example, he presided over millions of our tax dollars going to fund radical gender ideology of people, of doctors in hospitals that did, you know, that cut off the breast of young women, that, women, that put puberty blockers into young people, that really destroy their natural gender. This was done by a self-identified, I mean, personally devout Christian. Similarly, he oversaw a national tissue bank where they harvested late-term aborted baby parts, from aborted babies up to 42 weeks in gestation. I mean, that's, they would live to term to do medical research, including gruesome experiments

where they cut off the scalps of the little human babies and put them, grafted them into mice. And again, this wasn't done by an atheist, this wasn't done by a radical leftist, it was done by a devout evangelical Christian. So it might as well have been done by a radical leftist or a committed atheist, is what you're saying. Correct. And so my point is that if, you know, Christians are people of faith who are worried about what they see out in the culture, they need to sort of look to themselves. One other example from our own states, you know, you're in Oregon, I'm in Washington State. We had an attorney general who unfortunately is now our governor, Bob Ferguson, who styled himself as a devout person

of faith. When he ran for election, touted how he was active in his local Catholic church. Well, what was he known for as attorney general? He drove out of existence a grandmother, Baranel Stutzman, whose only crime was that she ran a flower shop and she was happy to serve everyone, you know, whatever sexual orientation, but she drew the line that she didn't want to do special floral arrangements for gay weddings because she didn't think that was right. She'd sell the flowers, but she just didn't want to do that. Fine.

He drove her out of existence with punitive lawsuits, and while doing it he boasted that he was this person of faith. And so we also have many people of faith who are actually working against the religious liberties of their fellow believers. Now is this because these so-called people of faith really don't believe the faith themselves and it's just used as, I hate to hate to put it this way, it's just a political shit in order to get office, you know, that kind of thing. Here he is, I'm just going to hang it up there. That's a really perceptive question. I think it's a mix and the interesting thing

is like for someone like Francis Collins, he's really devout. With Bob Ferguson, maybe, I don't know that he wants to say that. But there are quite a number of people who are personally devout, but the reason I say they're Stockholm Syndrome is what they do is they are so influenced by the elites around them that they unconsciously and maybe sometimes consciously adopt those views. And so their peer group is more the secular leftist elites around them than their fellow church members or their historic faith. And they do this, and so then they think that they're standing up for the right and the good, but they're in fact being influenced by...they've been captured by the culture. You know, the Stockholm

Syndrome is based on hostages in the bank situation, where at the end of the hostage situation they were feeling grateful to the hostage takers. It's almost like, oh my gosh you're not beating me so much so you really are good people, right? That kind of thing. Exactly. I think you see a lot of people of faith in politics and culture who are acting like that and so they're personally sincere but they're just screwed up. Now if they're personally sincere but do they look at their professional capacity as like there's a big wall between their personal sincerity and a big wall between that and the way they perform their secular government job?

Is there something to be said for that? I do think so, although it gets even worse. They take on these, like Francis Collins takes on the views of the secular elites and mixes it with his religion. So, for example, during COVID, and, you know, people had different views, but I think I would hope that most people realize now that some of the mandates that put people who were sincerely say didn't want to take the vaccine and they were put fired, you know, for no reason, even if they had had COVID and so they had natural immunities. Well, Francis Collins weaponized love thy neighbor, so he thought he was, you know, doing his religious thing to basically justify mass firings and attacking people

for being killers on the wrong side of history just because they personally didn't feel that they could take the COVID. You see, we remember all of those kind of things, you know, you hate grandma, don't you? Yeah. Right? I remember those kind of, what, you don't want to take the jab? You hate kids? You hate grandma? You hate freedom? I love that one, you hate freedom, so mask up and take the jab. Okay, light up. Or what do you think, you were talking about how you were thinking it's because that people of faith within their jobs then are influenced more

by the people around them, the elites around them that have that more secular worldview. But isn't this just the challenge of human nature because we want to get along, we're social creatures, right? Yeah, that is certainly part of it true I mean people want to get ahead and then they're a little cowardly And so I do get but again I'm seeing people when I was a college professor who after they'd gone through graduate school

I said they didn't think they were being cowardly. They thought they had so adopted by going through graduate school and then working with other peers who basically were very anti-Christian or anti-traditional beliefs, that they imbibe that they actually thought they were doing good as a person of faith by doing it. So yes, some of it's currying favor, some of it is wanting to get ahead, some of it is fear. But there's also an element of people who they so adopt, again, I go back to those hostages in that bank in Stockholm, where at the end of it, they were grateful to the hostage takers and thought they were good people and were upset about the police. They've so flipped their view that they've been captured by that mentality. And it takes

some wisdom for people to realize when they've been captured by this. And this is, my book is sort of a call for them to realize what's happened. But more of it, it's for those of us who haven't, well, what can we do about it? Because really, if you're, there are a lot of ordinary people who support, either go to a church or say support maybe a formerly Christian college where they write a check to that now is sort of Wokeness Incorporated. You know, this is enabled not just by the people who are calling Stockholm Syndrome Christians, it's by the rest of us who aren't using our own resources very well because

we're actually helping to bankroll this stuff. That's really interesting. Dr. John West is the author of Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, Why America's Christian Leaders Are Failing, and What We Can Do About It. I want to talk about what we can do about that more in just a bit. But it kind of reminds me of a story that my wife would tell me about her mother. Her mother was was very devout Christian and would wear white gloves. And the story that she would bring it is that, you know, you have white gloves and you touch something dirty. Nothing gets cleaner by you touching something dirty, right? And is this the challenge that you get into when you have someone of faith than within

Caesar's government? I hate to put it that way but I'm just wondering if just the inherent dirtiness of the Caesar take on the world is just going to arguably almost impact anyone no matter how hard you try or is there a way to resist this in your view? Well so part of being in government doesn't all compromise, and I do understand that, and so I'm not against that. But in the cases I'm writing about, and let me just go back to Francis Collins, he was pushing some of these things, not just when he was an official in the Biden administration, but when he was an official in the first Trump

administration, where he wasn't being forced to push, you know, funding of harvesting of baby parts from late-term aborted babies, or the gender madness for kids. And so he was pushing things even when he wasn't being forced to push it, because somehow he thought it was right. And so I think that the temptations to be corrupted are strong, but I do, I guess maybe I'm, I hope I'm not naive, but I think there are ways to navigate that. I mean if it really becomes terrible then people can resign, but I think in most cases, you know, people...

Well, then don't you have people that are thinking, listen, I can do better work within this system, I can try to affect some changes. I would imagine many people go into it with the best of intentions. That's true, but if you've already compromised to begin with, so the best of intentions, you're already adopted the views of the other side, then you're not going in to change anything. And so I think that's the problem. It's not that I'm sympathetic to people who are in challenging situations, you can't always do everything, that's right. But when you have people from the get-go are actually promoting the views of what they should think is the other side of destructive views, because they've so

bought in to the ideology. I mean, where do we get off, you know, self-identified Christians, or Jews for that matter, or anyone who's morally traditional, the people who've promoted the gender madness on kids. That's one thing, adults want to go off the deep end, but kids, who we know, the evidence shows they have transitory feelings. Many of the kids who aren't satisfied with their current gender, they'll grow out of it. So the last thing you want to do is be funding, tax funding of cutting off people's breasts

or other body parts so that they can never get back. Dr. John West once again. Dr. Boyd, it's kind of sticky, especially when you're out here in these western, very secular, very progressive states. You're in Washington state, I'm in Oregon state, California just left me. Heck, in Oregon we have a mental health professional of the Oregon Health Authority that came out identifying as a tortoise. No mental illness there though. Yes, I thought that. Okay, yeah, no mental illness. It's perfectly fine. As a devout Christian then, how do you stick to your guns or how do you suggest sticking to your guns then and being able to do good

and also work within that system that is doing its best I think to try to dirty up everybody over time. What do you think? So I think that's a question of prudent of how you actually get from here to there and that's a really important question. I think the most foundational question now is we have a lot of people who have fundamentally embraced the other side in their ideology so they don't even get to that question. They don't. Because, and so I think the first thing is in people's, you know, churches, synagogues, schools, families, you need to make sure that you ground your kids, ground yourself in what

the truth is. Then you could worry about, well, how do you best understand it? If you're in a hostile environment, you can't always advocate the truth. That's a sad fact. But if you don't at least know the truth for yourself, then you're going to be roped into actually actively supporting things that are detrimental. So it differs on people's situations, but at the very most thing, people in their own churches and families and their own collegial relationships with friends need to be agents of light, and they need to know what's right before they can even think about how to implement it. All right.

Do you… Let's revisit COVID a little bit if you don't mind here, because you were talking about how a lot of devout Christians really kind of dropped the ball here. Would you say that churches that allowed themselves to be closed or did not bend the knee to the various rules, were they part of the problem? Or were they just responding to the reality of the situation? I know we're talking about what happened then, but five years ago. Yeah, if they were closed a year out, then I think they were part of the problem. Or if they did, say, let's take our devout Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who's

a very devout conservative Catholic, what did he do? He okayed in Nevada, where they opened up the casinos, they at the same time they opened up the casinos with very few restrictions, they put onerous restrictions on churches. And so at the very least, if you're a Christian who didn't see a problem with a double standard where they open up casinos or big back box stores with less restrictions than put on your church and don't see that that's a problem, then you are part of the problem.

And so that my biggest problem during COVID is that people have different views, but when they have blatant double standards that when fellow Christians were actually supporting the persecution of fellow people of faith who had sincere disagreements and were being subjected to blatant double standards, that's the problem. Dr. I wanted to...I have a copy of your book, just received a copy of your book. I'm going to eagerly go through this.

So I haven't had the opportunity yet. It just came out the end of January. And what do you think long term of where we are headed in the United States of America? There's a lot of division, a lot of divisiveness on how we think that we should be living our lives. And some of you can talk to me and I've even wondered if there is going to be a spinning off or a breaking up of our current nation that there's not a lot of truth that holds this country together at this point in time.

Do you think people of faith are entering a time in which it'll be like, well, Rod Dreher, when he talked about the Benedict option in which there almost needs to be a parallel society to the dirt of society which is currently going on. What do you look at here? I'm asking you to kind of gaze in a Christian ball, so to speak. Well, yeah. So, well, as a Christian, I don't believe in crystal balls. Yeah, I know. I'm just using it metaphorically, okay? I think

actually there needs to be a parallel approach, whereas there are strong internal communities, like Rod Dreher was talking about, but that doesn't excuse Christians from being active in public life. It has to be both, because I'll tell you, where I think Rod Dreher went a little bit wrong is, if you only focus on your own community, you're not going to have the—he was assuming you're going to have the right to be your own intentional community. If you aren't active in public life, as we saw during COVID, where they shut down churches, you're not going to even be able to have your community. So I think, yes, Christians in local communities need to build their own churches, their schools, their own mentoring, and be a place of refuge and protection and

mentorship. But at the same time, they actually have to be involved in public life enough to at least defend religious liberty and defend cultural sanity with people who aren't Christians. There is a lot of common sense among people that are Catholics, Protestants, Jews, even Muslims and Buddhists and others on things. For example, if you look at some of these school board meetings where parents of all stripes are saying, put a stop to some of this madness of what we're victimizing our kids on in this. I think there is polarization, but polarization can lead to really a new birth of freedom

and community once one side convinces a sufficient majority. And so it's uncomfortable at the time of polarization, but there is a prospect of reaching the other side where you actually have established sort of a new common sense culture where everyone flourishes. Dr. John G. West, he's the senior fellow, managing director and vice president of Discovery Institute. And you are managing director, by the way,

of the Center for Science and Culture. What do you believe is the outlook for science? Is the scientific method going to make a return? You know, which will actually see a return in which instead of arguing about, you must believe the science, right? You know, the science, in other words, the science is only the body of knowledge or is only the people, you know, promoting a certain worldview about the body of knowledge rather than the actual scientific method. Where do you think we are in that battle, in the restoration of science? I think we're at a crossroads.

On the one hand, you have what I call big science that is really doubling down with their intolerance and want to dictate to everyone else. On the other hand, you have an unhelpful, you know, postmodern view of science that says, oh, all science is bad, there's no objective knowledge. And really, we need to articulate, and there are now people actually articulating this, but I guess this is the third choice, that science is the objective search for truth and does tremendous things, but the only way it can do it if it really is self-critical and it's not the voice of God, and people ought to be able to

ask for the evidence. Like during some of the COVID restrictions, people were, a lot of people just asking, give, show me the evidence, show me, don't just command, and this is a real warning. Well, and they couldn't show you. That's just it. Correct. That's the... If you ask, if you get a pat answer saying, oh, you're not an expert, you don't understand, and so just do what I say, that is a recipe for disaster. And that shows... People who say that ought to be drummed out of science positions, because if they're making

that claim, they're not really good scientists. Isn't climate change science essentially that way too? Just do what I say because, I mean, you can't prove it, can you? Or can you? And then they mix and match. So, you know, there are different questions. Well, are we warming? Then what causes it? And then what can we do about it? Those are separable questions, but they move it all together. Either you're with us or against us. Yeah. Ludicrous. It's not science, it's ideology.

Alright, very good. Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, why America's Christian leaders are failing and what we can do about it. It came out the end of January and is available at The Usual Suspects there. And Discovery Institute's Dr. John G. West, thank you so much. Great talk, appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Alright, 733 at KMED. This is the Bill Maier Show. Joel here from Butler-Ford & Truck Center for over 40 years.

735, a quick email of the day. We'll catch up on some news. Jack Cashel, who puts the C in conspiracy theory. We're going to be talking about Siknik and some high-level, shall we put it, autopsies and how they were more or less tweaked to fit the political narrative. Dig into that here. Jack Cashel, by the way, on Substack 736. And I'm gonna give an email of the day to Dale. Dale, who writes me, hey Bill, I took the time to... this is House Bill 3075, the the big gun grabbing bill, even worse than Measure 114, had the hearing the other day. Bill, I took the time 114, had the hearing the other day.

Bill, I took the time to look at the list of people who sent testimony to the House Judicial Committee on this bill. I would say there were well over 2,000 people who responded to this bill, and by far most were opposed. The ones in support, mostly from the Portland area, as one would suspect. If the representatives are affected by that count alone, regardless of the text, they would be very smart to discard the bill and the idea together. The Republicans especially should pay attention if they wish to hold their seats. If it comes to a floor vote, they should walk away, each and every one of them. Never mind the ridiculous regulation placed upon the walkouts. Either way, they could lose their seat by regulation or by a vote of the people. Dale, I appreciate your writing. Email of the day sponsored by Dr. Steve Nelson, Central Point Family Dentistry.

CentralPointfamilydentistry.com. It's on Freeman Way and just right next door to the Mazatlan Mexican Restaurant. And go to Kia Medford. Click kiamedford.com. You're here in the Bill Meyers Show on 1063 KMED. Author Jack Cashel joins me. I've been talking with him off and on over the years and really appreciate what he has brought to it.

I was first exposed with TWA 800 and how he just kind of blew up the myths of the government cover-up going on back at that time. And you have continued. How many books you've written over the years here, Jack? Welcome back to the show. In my own name, Bill, I've written 15 books, nonfiction. I did a couple of novels also, but I've also collaborated with people more famous than I am, probably 25 or 30 others, quietly collaborated.

I keep my name off those books. Some of them are, I mean, just as a practice, because I don't want to take away from the glory of the people whose names run above the... Is there a certain amount that... It's funny, if you look at a Wikipedia entry, it's like, Jack Cashel, conspiracy theorist journalist, right? Isn't that... Right. And yet, I would change that because it's like, Jack Cashel, guy who actually pays attention.

That's the way I look at it. But there's an upside and a downside to going where you go in your journalism, isn't there? Yeah, there's an upside to this. Essentially, I live in Kansas City, I'm unconnected, I don't have any major ties to any external media, certainly not to any major mainstream media, just sort of been, like most conservatives, have banned from there for a long time. But it allows me to pick up stories that editors would probably poo poo, you know? So, for instance, I was writing about, and Derek Chauvin's defense, immediately after his arrest,

certainly through his trial. And I would imagine you took a lot of incoming for that. Yeah, I took on incoming and I was getting no support from, nor was Derek Chauvin, from the conservative media. Because I know Ben Shapiro has taken up the case later, and I'm glad he has. But he admitted that he was on the wrong side of this issue from the beginning because he just bought the party line. And that was coming through Fox News as well. I think there was I think there are a lot of people on the wrong side of the Derek Chauvin case with the George Floyd's, George Floyd's death. And I remember watching the opening night of the trial and they had to

Greg Jarrett on the Fox News and he said it was a great job, right? The lawyer attorney. Yeah, they said this is an open shut case. This is horrible. What he did it was a great journey, right? The lawyer attorney. Yeah, this is an open shut case This is horrible what he did blah blah blah and I'm saying have you paid no attention? Have you not seen the You know the body cam footage, you know, have you not followed George Floyd's history? Have you not read the autopsy report report? You know see that was the part for me and that's when I And when I actually read the autopsy report, that's when I realized we're getting played on this George Floyd story. Totally.

And it's worse than Ben Shapiro knows because the autopsy report that they finally produced had been tainted by the threats and coercion from the D medical examiner, Dr. Roger Mitchell, to Andrew Baker, the Hennepin County medical examiner in Minnesota. He threatened to do an op-ed in the Washington Post unless Baker amended the autopsy report to include neck compression. Right? Do you know how nobody, almost nobody knows that really? I know, I mean, I've tried to communicate this to Ben Shapiro.

I said, you're missing the key part of this, the corruption of this case. And my information comes by the way, I just happened to notice it, reading one of the filings by one of the attorneys for Chauvin's partner, Tu O Thao, a guy of Cambodian descent. I think he may have been born in Cambodia.

Certainly his parents were born in Cambodia. And in that exhibit that they produced was a memorandum written by the state attorneys in Minnesota. The memorandum captured the moment when Mitchell came to the attorney's, the Minnesota attorney's, attorney general's office, and told them, a brag to them about how he got to Baker. And, you know, he came-

And in other words, how they put pressure on the doctor then to change the medical report, right? That's right. So Baker's initial medical report was straight up no asphyxiation, no strangulation. And the whole murder case hinged on that. Without that, you know, we had to face the reality that showed, I mean, that Floyd died of major heart failure.

And so he calls him and then he tells him he's boasting this and the attorneys record it. They make a note of what he said to them. So it's not like a hearsay, it's a second hand thing. And they say, yeah, he told us that he had called Baker, he was dissatisfied with Baker's response. So he called, thought about it over the weekend. He called Baker back and said, listen, you know, basically I'm going to make your life hell unless you add neck compression to that diagnosis. Now, don't they call that extortion? Yeah, I think they do. And it just sits there in plain sight and no one will talk about

it. And we know the mainstream media has no interest in opening this up at all. Oh, no. Well, you see, the death of George Floyd is the lie that we're all supposed to believe here, Jack. And this is what you fight a lot. And I wanted to mention that I was reading this, what you're talking about, on your Substack. You just go to Substack.com and search Jack Cashel and boom, there you go. And so it's great that Ben Shapiro is picking it up there.

I will say that I was kind of mixed on this back during the George Floyd time because I know that the neck thing, the neck position, it looks bad to most people, right? You know, it just, it looks bad. And then the, I can't breathe, you know, all the rest of it. But of course the I can't breathe was most likely because what, the positional asphyxia, something like that, and also the heart failure that was going on with him, something like that. Right, but you know,

I'll tell you how I got into this early. For one reason, I come from a police family. My father, my uncle, many of my cousins. So I've always been sympathetic to the cops. Yes I'm wondering, when did you know it was a fraud? What was going on with the George Floyd deal? You know, here's what happened. I have, you know, that was during the whole COVID season and I have a, I keep an office in Kansas City, you know, not out of my home and, and just happen to be on the main street of what is our hippie countercultural area, you know, the chas of Kansas City, such as it is, like the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone. And so I was coming into my office every day during that spring, and there's a lot of people, a lot of strange people.

You hear yelling on the streets all the time, so don't pay much attention. But one day the yelling went on for minutes, and I finally went down to the street level to see what was going on. And I see a cop kneeling on the neck shoulder area of a woman, right? And she's howling like a banshee. And this has been going on for five or 10 minutes. He's waiting for backup because she's a big lady and she's struggling. And at the time, my first thought on seeing this was, thank God she's white because it looks bad. Right. And it was a white woman and it's a white cop. Had she been black, you know, the people would have been around her with video cameras. I chose not to record it because

I don't want to make the cop nervous. I wanted to be helpful, not just like some, you know, voyeur. And then the backup came. They put these cannibals, the cannibal mask on this lady and they carted her away. I didn't know what she'd done. So when I saw the George Floyd tape, I wasn't horrified. This is, I noticed the regular police procedure. And I also knew from listening to this woman scream for 10 or 15 minutes that doesn't deprive you of oxygen, right? That's how it works. Yeah. How can you keep crying and screaming if you can't breathe? You have to be able to breathe in order to do that. So that makes sense.

So from day one, I got on that case and I started looking for what they did to seal the But on that case, and I started looking for what they did to seal the public impression was that Keith Ellison, who's the Attorney General of Minnesota, by the way, who was denied chairmanship of the DNC because of his intimate ties with the Nation of Islam, I'll tell you where he's coming from, was suppressed the body camp but it's for you know for months so that no one got to see what led up to this and what led up to this was George Floyd who's you know at the time of the Autopsy Report and they usually shrink a little on the table was listed at 64 to 225. He's a big guy, big guy. And he's muscular and he was resisting so the first two cops,

and this is pathetic when you think about it, Lane and Alex Kung. Kung is black. I mean, his father's from Nigeria. They were on the job three and four days, respectively, when they ran into Floyd. And they tried to get him in a police car. Lane was particularly polite. He's saying, listen, we could roll down the windows, we could turn on the air conditioning. And even before he's getting in the car, Floyd is saying, I can't breathe. I'm claustrophobic, blah, blah, blah.

Wasn't it really because he couldn't breathe because he was essentially dying of fentanyl overdose? Wasn't he? No, he didn't die of fentanyl overdose. He didn't? The mistake that everyone makes, even the people who are supporting him. He had a lot of fentanyl in the system, but he was a user.

Oh, okay. He also had methamphetamine in the system, which is an agitate, a fentanyl depressant. So he had major block, artery blockage in three of his four main arteries. He was dying basically of failure to get oxygen into his system. He was having a heart attack, basically a cardiac arrest. And they didn't know that the cops didn't know that, but they did call for backup. I mean, for emergency relief immediately for an ambulance,

immediately, even before he got on the street they had called. And then the ambulance, the EMTs go to the wrong address. So they get there 10 minutes late. And so how is that officer Chauvin's fault, I guess? Yeah, exactly. Right. So he puts him in a, when, you know, when you see the body cam fit, but it juicy, for white begging to be pulled right out of the police car and then let it begging to be let lie down on the street. Right. And so they accommodate them. They obliged him and, and he thanks them. Right. And then the technique that Chauvin applies is right out of the Minnesota training manual, maximum

restraint technique. They argued the fine point that it shouldn't have been allowed to... Well, you see, okay, Jack, I want to ask you about this because, like you said, it was right in the training manuals here. Now, we can agree or disagree, but it was right in the training manuals. How does a person doing what is right in the training manual all of a sudden then get convicted of murder and sent to jail, sent to the big house there? And I've had my problems with police actions in this particular case.

But I, you know, I looked at this and I saw Chauvin's, this was a railroading in essence. In fact, Derek Chauvin has been railroaded. He is a political prisoner. I know a lot of people may not like that. That's just the fact of the matter though, in my view here. Right, they would not allow in court the images from the training manual to be shown. His mother is sitting there in court,

wanting to say, look at this training manual, I got the pictures here. And they lied about it. So they had like trainers come up, we never train on that, we don't train on that, bah, bah, bah. You know, that was illegal, we don't train on that, blah, blah, blah. You know, that was illegal, we don't do that.

Of course they do. They just lied. The police chief lied. They had trainer lie. Everyone lied. The medical and the medical report was then modified because the lie had to survive, right? And then Baker had to lie. I mean, even though he was basically a good guy.

And then, you know, then there was a sexual harassment suit that just came out last year in which the assistant prosecutors in the county prosecutor's office, who originally would have been assigned this case, they had it taken away from them, they admitted, it came out in the sexual harassment suit, that they were appalled that the other three officers were being arrested and tried at all. And they withdrew from the case. Well, this was a politicized case, right from the story. So, by the way, I'm speaking with Jack Cashel, Substack.com, just search Jack Cashel, and he has a great article there, the Derek Chauvin case is actually worse than Ben Shapiro knows, because Ben's been picking this up on his show apparently a bit.

And I guess the question being here, do you think it was, okay, was this, this was during Biden administration that this happened, right? Well, it happened in, no, well, the trial was, yes. Yeah, the trial was during the Biden administration. Right, right. Is there any evidence that that had great influence on how this was handled? Yes, of course.

And, you know, it's hard, but I hate to say it, but even if Trump had still been president, given the momentum after the Floyd death, it still might have, you know, so skewed the prosecution that would have been very difficult politically. It's very difficult politically now for Trump to do the right thing, even though it's been brought to his attention. I think he has to be very cautious about this. I think what's necessary first is to build up enough public recognition of the injustice

done before the White House can move. And that really can't be done until the major media decide, hey, listen, we've allowed this grave injustice to take place, this travesty of a trial to take place. Because if it can happen to, if it can happen to Officer Chauvin, frankly, it can be done to anyone. Really, it's another one of those. I've written about other people to whom that's been done. Every city has a Derek Chauvin. I hate to say it.

During that period especially, any cop who did anything was going to be dragged before a kangaroo court. It happened here in Kansas City to a police officer I know, and I finally was pardoned by our to a police officer I know and I finally was pardoned by our Republican governor. This is why I find your substacks so useful. You'll dig into those stories sometimes forgotten that need to be remembered and I think that was a very important case, the Derek Chauvin case. Another one that you brought up there is that, and it's connected to the Derek Chauvin case, and was another substack you put out last week said same doctor who altered the Floyd autopsy report that you were just talking about that also was involved in the January 6 cover-up. Could you tell us a little bit about that because...

No, I mean this one's missed also. It's hard, Bill. I'm not talking I think, maybe I'm speculating. No, you have the proof, you have the proof. You have the proof, okay? So we go back to Dr. Roger Mitchell. And on January 6, 2021, Dr. Roger Mitchell is the D.C. medical examiner. He's also the deputy mayor of D.C. He's a player, he's a mover and shaker.

Knows Obama, etc. So his office is responsible for the autopsies of the people who died on January 6. Four people died on January 6. All of them pro-Trump people. Yeah, including Ashley Babbage that you wrote extensively about in the book, Ashley. Right. Sure. Two men died basically of heart attacks. One of them triggered by a flashbang

exploding in his face. And the other death that the Mitchell's office corrupted was the death of Roseanne Boylan. I'll get to that in a minute. The most critical of them was Brian Sicknett. And in this case, the autopsy was done appropriately. It was done on the morning of January 8, the day after Brian Sicknick died of a series of strokes that had nothing to do with January 6. And they said

so in the autopsy report. You know, it was not caused by external events, blah, blah, blah. Well, remember the reports that came out January 6 always hit the head with a fire extinguisher, all those kinds of things. Every one of that, all those were lies, right? That's right. So what happens is that someone, the New York Times cites two law enforcement officials, that's their phrase, who told them that on January 6th, pro-Trump supporters had hit Sicknick over the head with a fire extinguisher, and then they add this ghastly detail for authenticity,

that he was rushed out of the Capitol with blood flowing from a huge gash in his head, and he died in the way or in the hospital. Total fabrication. That runs in January 8th. And then for the next 100 days, they suppressed the autopsy report until it's finally forced out by a lawsuit from Judicial Watch. Now, the Floyd autopsy report was out within a week and that's standard.

This they sat on for more than a hundred days So for a hundred days they're allowed to tell that lie because it fit the narrative It fit the way they wanted to spin January 6 insurrection Because no conservative wanted to be associated with a murderous mob, right? because on up until the Gen until the sick Nick death was reported by a fire extinguisher, conservatives had been relatively supportive of the riot on January 6th, or at least they didn't take it too seriously.

But after that, it just stifled all conversation. Because, well, cop killer. Cop killer mob, right? Exactly. Who wants to be associated with a cop killer? Even to this day, some people on our side don't know enough to reject that assertion. But how interesting, though, that it's the same guy that doctored up the George Floyd thing, which just shows you...

This is definitely... Is it conspiracy or just about pushing the proper political narrative in politicized science, in the politicized science world? What do you think? It's evil minds thinking alike, really. I mean, they don't even need to be told what to do. They do it instinctively. By the way, Dr. Roger Mitchell also launched a smear campaign against the one defense witness for Derek Chauvin, who dared to tell the truth about the nature of his death.

And that was a guy named Dr. Fowler, who had been the medical examiner for the state of Maryland. Mitchell got the Democratic attorney general of Maryland to open up a case against Ballard, had them review all of his past findings. In other words, we're going to destroy you because you came at this with the wrong point of view. Boy, we got some deep dark underbelly and you explore a lot of this here. Do you believe that it will, I'm just asking for speculation on your part here, do you think that you know in Trump 2.0 we might see a reversal or at least a staunching of this kind of judicial

bleeding? No pun intended, aren't there? We'll see a staunching right away. I think today, I mean I can't believe how much has happened so quickly. And in a good way. Who would believe that DEI would be a dead issue within months? I mean, it was like a total revolution here. Yeah, well, I think they're saying it's dead. I don't think it's dead, as dead as they're claiming right now. I think they're just going to rename it and go and take it underground more. That's what I think. Yeah, I think you're right.

I think they will reshape it, but boy, it's taking a real blow. And I wrote this one article about the McMichael's family, and I titled it, The Ur of Loke Justice May Be Over, But Its Injustices Live On. So, Greg and Travis McMichael, also victims of the same phenomenon,

are spending the rest of their life in prison without parole for a crime that the local district attorney didn't even think was a crime. It wasn't even going to press charges until the state of Georgia and the feds moved in, in the wake of the George Floyd incident. So yeah, but they're still in prison. To get them out is going to take, it's going to take a change in immediate landscape first before Trump can, I think, act without provoking major disaster. Well, think there's going to be any Innocence Project investigation for those people? No, you're kidding. Innocence Project projects of fraud. I was working on behalf of a, from

one of my books, my book on California, for a kid who at 18, a sailor, got into San Francisco, got drunk, got picked up by a gay activist, an Hispanic illegal immigrant, the boot, and raped. He pulled off his rap rapist killed him in the process And was sentenced to life in prison. It had been a woman in the same circumstance They wouldn't even been a trial And when I got involved This fellow tried to contact the innocent project and he did and they wrote back in fact. And they wrote back, come, you go back and hang out with your right-wing friends.

We have one, nothing to do with you, blah, blah, blah, blah. Gee, so much for innocence, huh? Yeah, right, exactly, right. Yeah, so innocence for the DEI, unjustly convicted DEI people. Okay, all right, got it. But we did manage to get this fellow out of prison, and his life has turned around in a miraculous way.

So there can be happy endings All right glad to hear that jack. Thanks so much for sharing it. I highly recommend your substag You're one of few substacks. I mean, there's so many substacks that you can't You know, it's hard to pay attention to the fire hose, but there's always Great journalism on your side and it's a substance by the way, and you don't have to pay. You're worth getting paid though. Yeah, and some people do and I encourage them. Okay, I'll work on that. I'll give you a coffee, what do they call it? Coffee tip or something like that? I don't know, that's Patreon. I think it's something else, but we'll get it figured out. I always enjoy the reads and I'm

glad that you're paying attention to a lot of these stories that really do need a closer look than what we what we think we know about something. Okay thanks so much. Bill, appreciate your time. All right, substack.com Jack Cashel. Search for Jack Cashel. Believe me you will know a lot more than than you know right now if you're going there. Okay.