Bittersweet Infamy - #104 - Artifact or Fiction?

Episode Date: July 28, 2024

Josie tells Taylor about the muddy line between forgery and art, and how Mexican ceramicist Brígido Lara made it even muddier. Plus: 1972 Democratic presidential candidate George McGovern, his VP pick Thomas Eagleton, and the electroshock controversy that killed their campaign in only 18 days.

Welcome to Bitter Sweet and Food. I'm Taylor Basso. And I'm Josie Mitchell. On this podcast, we share the stories that live on in infamy. The strange and the familiar. The tragic and the comic. The bitter. And the sweet.

Your new pink headphones look really good with your green hair. Thank you. You're so sweet. Thank you. I'm very kawaii now Yeah, you have a nice haircut. You're wearing a couple friendship bracelets. I got my haircut on Friday cute It's a little shaggy little bob guy. How would you describe the color on your nails? What color is that? Sky blue sky, but yeah sky blue the color of 2000 2001 that era Yeah, this like baby sky, like mid glacier. Yes, the color of the Polar Bears go-kart

in Crash Team Racing released around that time. And I remember thinking, it was like this metallic sky blue, and I remember thinking, cool color. No wonder a Polar Bear was driving that. Totally. Yeah, makes perfect sense. That's the OPI nail polish.

Name for it, Polar Bear go-kart. Polar Bear go-kart, sick, and rightly so. Yeah, makes perfect sense. That's the O.P.I. nail polish name for it. Polar bear go-kart. Polar bear go-kart, sick, and rightly so. Yeah. Polar bear go-kart. Speaking of polar bear go, Hillary Clinton once famously implored voters to Pokemon go to the polls and... I'm gonna use that as a sag because you take your sags or you can find them.

Yeah. I remastered the first 11 episodes. They're much louder and clearer. You can go back and listen to those now. It's a great time. I plan to continue doing more. But in that process, it really struck me how often our episodes began with some sort of like current event that had just like rocked our collective shit. This is 2020 COVID era. Yeah. They were coming in hot though. They were coming in hot. You couldn't escape them. This was the era where Trump was handing over the presidency

to Joe Biden of a sort. It was pride from his fucking fingertips, but the transfer was made. Yes. And I was taking it, I was like, it's interesting because it hasn't really been that way. It's been a lot more for the past, for the Biden presidency. It's been a lot more uh opening shit up with like personal anecdote or relevant thing. And yet... And now we're back! Because history is cyclical. Now we're back. These election cycles, these American election cycles have brought us back to the shores. Sleepy Joe's taking his pillow and going for the uh movement hibernation. He's going for a long nap. He announced that he would be drawing his candidacy for president and he endorsed Kamala Harris.

Josie, you are our American political correspondent. Your thoughts? I'm reporting live from deep down here. I'm using my thumbs. No, she's using using she's made a little fake microphone with her hands. It's very cute. She actually has a real microphone

too, is the funny thing. I know, but I can't touch it because because you don't have those bumps and ups and jumps. The folks we learned that. So as of our taping, it is Monday, July 22nd. So yesterday on a Sunday Sunday it's always yesterday

it's always just wrote a letter yeah he tweeted he x'd a letter he x'd a letter at my fellow American she's still doing the microphone but uh yeah that was kind of a wild a a wild thing. I did not see that coming. My views of Biden immediately shifted. I was like, yes, sir, one American hero. And Kamala, whoever said we didn't like cops, come on. I mean, we've always loved them. Kamala is the best one. I do think that Kamala has this vibe of like, she's that aunt who like comes in late to the party and just wrecks you. Comes in late and hot. Comes in late and hot.

Late and hot and is like, how much did you pay for that haircut? I don't know. I feel like that's a good energy for Trump, maybe. She's a much more, I come to this, interestingly enough, you, Josie ended up pushing back the recording time, so I was like, oh, I should put something on. I put on Kamala Harris's speech that she gave. And it was a good speech, I thought,

and like incisively delivered. Yeah, yeah. And sort of like, I guess, ameliorated the rhetorical things that people were having trouble with from Biden, e.g. that he was meandering that he wasn't directly attacking Donald Trump for being a convicted rapist, convicted fraud, alleged, alleged convicted rapist, alleged don't sue me Donald, don't take me to the Four Seasons landscaping company, I don't

want it. I mean, there's so much, there's so much and he just like kept bobbling all of them. Yeah, I know. I was never thrilled with Kamala's cop history and some of her policies in there, but I do think that at this juncture in time, I'm like, okay. Yeah, Drew Barrymore was right. Drew Barrymore was right.

She could be America's mamala. This is what we need. Mamala. It'll be interesting to see, because Biden's a very establishment pick. He's beaten Trump before. Whatever you want to say about him, he has beaten Trump once. Yeah, yeah, true.

Even as there are all of these sort of implications made around his like fitness to serve and whatever, a steadier pick, but people panicked and- But how steady really? I don't know, cause would he make it the four years, et cetera? These are the questions, right? I mean, we should also say that Kamala was endorsed

by Biden when he stepped down, but she has not secured the nomination as of yet. Nor has she named a running mate. No, and everything changes every day. Obviously. So tomorrow. Yes. Dude, next time we talk, we're gonna be like,

listen, we didn't know that Kamala was running a sex ring when we made this episode, okay? Stop emailing us. Shit stage day by day. I know, it's incredible. For sure. Well, I mean, also how interesting that you and I have something of an archive of our like real time reactions

to some of these political events. That's kind of cool. I know, I remember listening back to some of the ones that you've remastered and it is kind of cool. I know, I remember listening back to some of the ones that you've remastered, and it is kind of like, holy shit, yeah. We've been around for a while now. We were talking last time we were talking, we were still under lockdown.

Not last time we were talking, first time we were talking. Still don't have that much to say, but you know, I said it. And? And it's been recorded. It's been said. And enough said. Do you want a Mimphimus?

Give me a Mimphimus. I'm feeling like I need a Mimphi. Your breath's getting a little stank. You need to pop a Mimph in there. Yes. I do. I really do. Okay.

So all of this talk around, you know, Biden stepping down, Harris possibly stepping up on the Republican end of things, Donald Trump just named old hillbilly LGJD Vance as his running mate. So I'm going to tell you a story now that I think you'll find has a lot of echoes to present day because as we discuss history is cyclical. History just repeats endlessly it's disgusting really wish we could iron out the fascism shit whatever that'd be nice yeah really really would i'm gonna take you back this is this isn't the story but it's the beginning

of the story and the story begins when appropriately it begins the last time that a sitting president decided not to seek reelection. And of course, Josie is a scholar of American history. You know that is? Okay, so that would be Lyndon B. Johnson. Lyndon B. Johnson did not ultimately- Texas Boy. Texas Boy did not seek his second term. His handling of the Vietnam War

and other domestic turmoil really unpopular year was 1968. And if you know politically 1968, you know that the democratic national convention that year is a disaster. There are riots in the streets of Chicago around the murders of Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy. And specifically, Robert F. Kennedy had been running a really energizing primary campaign for the Democratic nomination, reaching out to young, poor, minority, and Catholic voters only to be assassinated during the primary

by 24-year-old Palestinian Jordanian Sirhan Sirhan over his support of Israel in the Seven Days War. The more things change. All of this chaos forces the Democratic Party leaders to pick a new slate at the 1968 convention. In the end, the honor goes to pro-war Vice President Hubert Humphrey of Minnesota, who hadn't entered a single primary, and VP pick Edmund Muskie of Maine. No one is happy with either the selection process or the final candidates. Democratic voters are not inspired. Richard Nixon and Spyro Agnew end up crushing Humphrey and Muskie in the

general election. I didn't realize that Lyndon B. Johnson stepped down because I know that he took over JFK's second term. Yes. Almost the entirety of it. I wonder if that influenced him at all. I know that he ended up finishing like Biden has pledged to. He finished, Johnson finished his term and ended up leaving office at the end. But he said, okay, Democrats pick my successor basically. And then they fucked it up. And then they fucked it up. So given that the 1968 candidates were seen as so dissatisfying for 1972, we rewrite the rules so that such a dissatisfying card

can't be chosen again. The new rules established by the McGovern-Fraser Commission mean that party leaders can't just handpick a winner. Party delegates need to involve, notionally this is more democratic, more representative of women and minorities, which we're trying to do in the late 60s, early 70s, etc. Yeah.

Thankfully, the notion of an unacceptable democratic slate has been utterly defeated, and the same thing will not happen again, certainly not at the very next democratic national convention in 1972, four years later, the first time these rules are in place. Hey, hey, hey. With the Vietnam War still raging on the various Democratic challengers' campaign in their primaries, attempting to secure the nomination to take on Nixon in the general, Humphrey and Muskie,

the two previous candidates both run, as does Representative Shirley Chisholm, becoming the first black candidate for a major party's nomination, who Kamala Harris paid homage to in her 2020 run, right? With her typography or what have you. Yeah. None of them win.

The long shot victor is Senator George McGovern of North Dakota. Does that name ring any bells for you? George McGovern, no. Yeah. Well, it should because I just told you. The governor McGovern. I was gonna say, he has the name for the job.

Yeah. You can't deny it. Who better than McGovern to McGovern the land? Yeah. I'm loving it. It should ring a bell because I just told you about the McGovern-Fraser Commission, which was the new suite of rules on how to pick the winner.

He and Colleen are the people who establish these rules and end up being the first, he ends up being the first beneficiary of them. Okay, ooh. So a little bit about George McGovern. He is a US representative. And I think at that point he is a senator at the beginning of his second term, possibly,

or maybe like at the end of his first term. Okay. He is born in Mitchell, South Dakota, the home of the world's only corn palace, July 19th, 1922. I am familiar with the Mitchell corn palace. Are you? Not intimately, but I've seen a picture someone sent me one time. How could a place named Mitchell be bad? It couldn't. It's true. It must be a great place. This guy, McGovern, he's a World War II veteran. Okay. He then finds his way into politics. He's well-liked, but he's a bit of a people pleaser. There's these

anecdotes of how he would give everyone kind of, he wanted a speech done but he didn't want to offend anyone by assigning the speech to any particular person so he would just assign it to everyone and take a little bit from each so as not to offend anyone. Oh So that kind of malignant people pleaser thing that just ends up being like immensely more frustrating than if you just directly addressed whatever the issue was and everyone would just be happier for it Yeah, yeah, someone might not be but it'd be done and you can move past it The Resentments wouldn't build, the Wondering, the Head Games would be less, but it'd be done and you can move past it. The resentments wouldn't build, the wondering,

the head games would be less. But he's anti-Vietnam war, he's pro civil liberties for minority and women on principle. He is up against all of these people who are kind of more favored or better tipped for the nomination than him, the Democratic nomination. But he runs an underdog grassroots campaign. Things kind of break his way in terms of the momentum

of the campaigning and in the end he secures the nomination. 1972 Democratic National Convention approaches in Miami Beach, things are still very much up in the air. Welcome to Miami. Bienvenido a Miami, CCC. So even though these rule changes are notionally in place, because they are so new, the other candidates, so the like, Muskie, these guys,

they basically form a coalition to try to like scheme the primary out of McGovern's hands called the Anyone But McGovern Coalition. McGovern has to do, you know, they're doing Shenandigas, McGovern has to do counter Shenandigas. Yeah. It's a big Democratic National Shenandigas is what we're talking here.

Sounds like a lot of work. So much sunscreen. Those bald Minnesota Senator heads and South Dakota Senator cheeks all need to be lathered in. In Miami? Oh no. Oh, babe, although they're probably happy. They're like, look, it's a dolphin.

Margaret, take a picture. So because McGovern is like busting ass to get everyone on side to get this nomination that he should basically have already secured, but he's getting a lot of resistance to it, McGovern hasn't set aside any time, real time to pick a vice president. Oh shit, that's important.

That has to happen like the next day. The problem is that he and his campaign staffer, Gary Hart compiled a list of about 17 names, but Hart doesn't even bother to vet him before the convention, both because there's no time and because, according to historian Joshua Glasser, quote, all their polling told them that Ted Kennedy was the guy they needed on their ticket.

If they had him on the ticket, they'd have a reasonable shot at actually beating Nixon come the fall. So Ted Kennedy is the brother of the late Robert F. Kennedy who got popped at the beginning of this story. He's the brother of the late John F. Kennedy who got popped at the beginning of the 60s. RIP.

May they all rest. And specifically, he's just been implicated of the late John F. Kenny who got popped at the beginning of the 60s. Rney home from the party. They went over a bridge, she drowned, he went home, didn't call the cops till the next day. Sorry, when you said went over a bridge, I thought you meant just like driving, driving, driving. Oh no, their car, yes, there was a terrible accident and the car went off a bridge. Oh my God. Mary Jo Kopeckini ends up drowning.

Ted Kennedy goes home, calls like five relatives long distance, but doesn't call the cops to the next day. And it's a big scandal, but still Ted Kennedy still somehow very electable at this point, even in a year later of this. The Kennedy name, it's gold. Especially with that RFK connection, the JFK connection, but he's got his own shit going on.

So no matter how much they come to him and say, Ted Kennedy, you're the guy. All our polling tells you, we need you to be the vice president. We need you, we need you, we need you. He says no. I get that. Basically what ends up happening is that

they're stuck with three hours at the Democratic National Convention to just like speed through a vice presidential selection process. They go through a bunch of different names, a bunch of different guys, and every third guy, they'll go back to Ted Kennedy and be like, are you, do, like, we need-

Just checking in. Have you changed your mind yet? Did you go for a walk? You love to walk. Maybe go look at the shore. Remember your brother? You know, this kind of go look at the shore. Remember your brother. You know, this kind of shit. No, no, no. Ted Kennedy, a million Ted Kennedy rejections later, the McGovern campaign settles on Missouri Senator Thomas Eagleton, who accepts gracefully.

Okay. Okay. McGovern and Eagleton. McGovern and Eagleton. Who better to run America? The campaign buttons print themselves. Saluting Eagle? Done. Frank Mancowet's the campaign staff member for McGovern who's making this call to Eagleton to break the news like, oh, we'd like you to be on the ticket. He's like, oh, according to Eagleton, he says, you've got no skeletons in your closet, right? And Eagleton's like, right. Oh. No. and he says, you've got no skeletons in your closet, right? And Eagleton's like, right?

No. Let me tell you a little bit about Thomas Eagleton. Does that mean anything to you? No, but I have a feeling he might have a few skeletons in his closet. Depends on your definition of skeleton, and I don't mean that ironically. Okay.

It depends on your definition of skeleton. There's like a mummy, there's a weird creepy doll. Yeah. Well, no, so like, is this guy's trespass worse than driving a girl off a bridge and letting her drown? Will you call your relatives long distance? I would argue no. So. Okay, okay, yeah.

There's that, right? Thomas Eagleton described by the media then as a casting director's ideal for a running mate. Eagleton, obviously. Obviously, he's an up and comer like an eagle. He's rising, you's rising into the sky. He was elected the youngest ever attorney general in Missouri history.

And he was a fiery opponent of the Vietnam War. Great. McGovern was doing weak with Catholics and big labor. Eagleton's a Catholic, hates abortion, likes big labor. They balance each other out, right? Eagleton is seen broadly as a phenomenal campaigner, very likable and good natured with broad appeal to traditional and modern voters, a rising star,

he's never lost an election ever. Oh wow. Yes, perfect record. Bat in a thousand. With that said, it's not like he doesn't have his little quirks, he seems kinda like maybe he has a little bit of a nervous energy. He's known to blow through two packs of pommels a day,

starting and stubbing them before he even finishes them. Oh wow, yeah. There are rumors around the convention, whispers, that Eagleton maybe has some mental illness in the family. Okay, okay. And maybe there's an open secret that maybe he drinks a bit, maybe he's a bit of a drinker. Okay, all right.

It's 1972, I'm sure there's a lot of drinkers in that convention center. Who among us wasn't stressed out and drunk, right? It's so true, yeah. And again, and I really want this to hang in the back of your head as we go through this. The opponent here is Richard Nixon. Yes.

I'm not gonna dwell on that much, but Richard Nixon drank and you might accuse him of having a personality disorder or two. Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. So these are things to consider. We've seen the documentary, Dick.

We know all about it. Kristen Dunstan, Michelle Williams opened our eyes to all of it. Mick Govern names Eagleton as his vice presidential candidate at the convention. These whispers, these mental illness, these alcoholism whispers turn to shouts. Time Magazine gets in touch with evidence that in the past 10 years, Eagleton was hospitalized three times for nervous exhaustion and fatigue. And it comes out that these treatments

included electroconvulsive therapy. And you know electroshock maybe not a very good rap right? That sucks for Eagleton damn. It heavy sucks for Eagleton and it will continue to suck for Eagleton. So we're kind of in a post one flew over the cuckoo's nest landscape in terms of like pop cultural depictions around Electroshock. We're very much like culturally at this point in the story, we're in mind that Electroshock is this like Frankenstein machine that you only give to the most,

it's like, it's basically a lobotomy. It's like something you'd give like a very crazy person kind of thing. In a 2024 context, me personally, I'd say who gives a shit? Same bitch, only reason they haven't electrocuted me is because they can't catch me. But when we're embroiled in the cold roar with the USSR and the conversation around America's leader often mentions the proverbial finger on the button that controls the nuke. That still comes up today, dog. That's when all over these airwaves,

people asking Biden to step down, Fingo on the button, that call in the middle of the night. We need the temperament of a Donald Trump, the temperament and stability of a Donald Trump. That's who we need on the fucking button. In any case, seeming anything other than steady and unflappable is bad for business, to wit, the same 1973 Democratic primary that McGovern won. Apparently the thing that sank this guy, Edmund Muskie,

who was so anti-McGovern, is because in New Hampshire, someone had written like a hit piece on his wife and he issued a very like emotional rebuke against it in what happened to be the middle of the snowstorm. And so perhaps optically because of the snowstorm or perhaps because he was getting a little teary, he seemed to look teary-eyed or choked up. And the response was, we can't have this crying man lit at the button. And that was it for Muskie.

Because he seemed to have cried. Oh no. When talking about some guy lying on his life. I know, I know, I know, I I know and it's almost like it's so fake And yet it's almost quaint how little seemed to disqualify you then Yeah, and yet so 12 days after his initial selection as vice president under much scrutiny Eagleton comes out to the campaign with it Like yeah, they have to kind of like ask him

He's been aligning it because he seems like kind of nervous to talk about it but they finally are just like listen did you did you get electors Jacques he's like yes I did yeah McGovern and Eagleton do a press conference where Eagleton basically admits everything is very candid very but still jovial and still you know he politicians it well good for him McGovern affirms I have watched Senator Eagleton in the US Senate for the past four years. As far as I'm concerned,

there is no member of that Senate who is any sounder in mind, body and spirit than Tom Eagleton. He issues a statement to the Associated Press, I am 1000% for Tom Eagleton and have no intention of dropping him from the ticket. Stand by your man. The muckraking continues and the McGovern campaign,

and then slowly the candidate gets cold feet and begins to panic. Wait, McGovern does or Eagleton? McGovern. Eagleton's doing great actually. Eagleton's public appearances are going really well. He's very candid, he's very affable, he's very humble. He has little, he's doing really well, he's very candid, he's very affable, he's very humble, he has little, he's doing really well.

While he's on Face the Nation doing really well, high level democratic operatives that are implicitly sanctioned by McGovern are publicly saying that Eagleton should drop out of the presidential race. Ah. If you can imagine something like that happening in this very democratic party. Yeah, yeah.

Hmm, hmm. It's these mad times, right? Strange. So Eagleton gets kind of one last crack at having a conversation with McGovern. He assures McGovern that this is, ultimately this is gonna be a net positive. I see people are really like respecting my candor.

I think before I wasn't necessarily an ad, but like weirdly this has made me an ad because like I think people see it as like distasteful the way they're coming after me. And I think that together we can blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, you can pivot, do a little Aikido, bam, boom. You're ready to go.

And McGovern's like, you know what? Let's sleep on it. And Eagleton on the way home, he observes to his assistant, Doug Bennett, he says, I can tell McGovern's heart is with me, but it's his heart versus his staff. And Doug Bennett's like, if that's the case, then you lose.

And- The man has no heart. Well, this was the journey that McGovern had to go on, learning to make some tough decisions, right? True enough, on day 18, Eagleton, again and again because it'll never be McGovern to push the button because he's a people pleaser. Oh no.

So Eagleton basically goes up to him and says, "'Do you remember when you, at the convention, "'you told me you wanted me to be your vice president?' And I said, "'Absolutely, and if in any way "'I ever end up dragging you down, you can cut me loose anytime you need. He had specifically said something to that effect. Oh wow, yeah.

As part of his pledge of loyalty to this guy. Yeah. So he reminds him, Eagleton's like, I just want to remind you of that promise that I made. And MacGyver finally, after weeks of vacillating and fumbling and trying to sideways knock him out out is like, yes, I would like that. I would like it if you dropped out. Oh my God, he can't even like say it.

He's like, I would like you to do the thing that you just offered to do. That one, that one. That one, yeah, yeah. Ugh, the worst. It's very well, that's how people felt of getting ahead of myself, but that's how the voters felt.

Mm-hmm. On August 1st, in the Senate marble room, Thomas Eagleton withdrew his candidacy for the vice presidency. He's replaced on the ticket by US ambassador to France and Kennedy in-law, Sergeant Shriver. So we couldn't get Ted Kennedy, but great news, Sergeant Shriver's here and he'll work for cheap, right?

Oh, Shriver, then that's, bum, bum, bum, bum, Arnold Schwarzenegger's wife. Arnold Schwarzenegger's father-in-law, Maria Shriver. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. So everyone seems to, all of the Democratic voters or like the general election voters, I guess, who, you know, are a big chunky independent voters in there

or changing voters or whatever, who will make the decision based on what they see. It really made the Democrats look slimy. The contrast between this guy, Thomas Eagleton, who seemed to handle this really difficult situation with a lot of grace, and like, yes, perhaps he should have informed the campaign about this, but we understand his reticence

and who hasn't been through a hard time. There's this goodwill that he's been able to build up. He's really turned the situation around, yeah. He's turned the situation around, but the Democrats are real, real nervous. Nellie's and all the people insulating George McGovern are telling him, cut bait with this guy, cut bait with this guy.

And specifically, the thing that looks really bad is George McGovern said, I'm a thousand percent behind Tom Eagleton. And he specifically was like a thousand percent, put that in, I want a thousand percent in there. And then like six days later, I want you to resign, right? It seems like a flip, it seems like a guy you can't trust with the button, right?

He doesn't know which way he's coming is going. Sounds like a flip flop to me. We need a firm hand like Richard Milhoes Nixon is what we need. I need a sturdy shoe, a clod hopper. I need a Nixon, yeah. Absolutely. McGovern conceded that he had stumbled at times

in his handling of the matter, but if there were mistakes, he said, they were honest mistakes of the heart. To those who are troubled that a presidential candidate could back his chosen enemy at 1000% and then ask him to step down a week later, I can only say that in politics as in life, compassion must sometimes yield to more reflective and painful judgment." 99 days after Thomas Eagleton dropped from the ticket, Nixon and Agnew demolish McGovern

and Shriver in a landslide, the largest share of the Republican vote from any president. That's what I remember is that he strangely enough, like really won over the American public in that second term. Well, look who he was up against, and a very scattered and disorganized Democratic party that was probably planning to be united under RFK and then he got shot.

Right, yeah. And this is what we were left with. And yet still, Tricky Dick felt the need to spy on this very, as you say, disorganized Democratic party. Oh yeah, oh yeah, there was a lot of talk in this of just like, when we can talk without wiretaps I'm really gonna tell you what's going on with the McGovern campaign. Little wrap up here, Eagleton and McGovern both went on to complete multiple further terms as senators for their respective home states. George McGovern became a well-regarded advocate for food security. He died October 21st, 2012.

McGovern himself said the Eagleton affair was the saddest part of his whole run. Many people never forgave me. I thought I was acting in the national best interest, but many thought I was not. However, in March 1973, McGovern did actually allow a journalist that you and I know, Joe McGinnis, to spend some time with him in South Dakota. Joe McGinnis, the subject of The Journalist and the Murderer, who is painted as this very- That is correct! Janet Malcolm's book! Janet Malcolm's book, yes. It's a book about a journalist who covers the story of a murderer,

draws close to said murderer, and then just does a total hatchet job on him. Well, you'll be shocked to hear he did a fucking hatchet job on McGovern. Oh, God. The quotes include, "'I didn't like Eagleton one bit. "'He always seemed superficial to me.

"'He had no dignity, no reserve, "'and there was always this nervousness to him.'" So just like running on how Eagleton one bit. He always seemed superficial to me. He had no dignity, no reserve, and there was always this nervousness to him. So just like running on how Eagleton ruined everything, McGovern would disavow the article, say it was a fabrication. It's up to you. Thomas Eagleton died in 2007, says Joshua M. Glasser, who wrote the book that I consulted about this whole affair, The 18-Day Running Mate, McGovern, Eagleton, and the Campaign in Crisis.

The way Eagleton handled himself during those 18 days was very admirable. It earned him tremendous respect from the people of Missouri. They didn't like the way he seemed to appear to be treated by McGovern, and he was a very, very able and respected public servant. In his own memoirs, he describes his 18 days as VP candidate in the abrupt ending as follows, I wasn't defeated. I had done nothing wrong. I had lived and experienced emotional setbacks, but I was not ashamed. I had committed no crime. I was my own man. In his farewell letter to his friends and family in the months before he died. His dying wishes were for people to quote, go forth in love and peace,

be kind to dogs and vote democratic. Oh, that's cute. And that is the story of McGovern Eagleton, the presidential card that lasted less than three weeks. Oh my God. Yeah, just 18 days. 18 days, 18 fraught days where you're the vice presidential candidate and then your whole life gets fucking picked apart on TV and then you get ditched.

Yeah. Well then you go back and are an accomplished senator from Missouri. Yeah, he was lucky enough that the picking apart, that he, well, he wasn't lucky, he was talented enough at the politics of it all to to take that information and change the the view of him they should have stuck with him they should have stuck with him they should have stuck with him and and i wonder if that's what people will be saying about uh sleepy joe depending how this all shakes out right it's high sides 2020 it's easy for us to say now

because Nixon won and beat the shit out of McGovern. It's so interesting, because all my little world in circle of like younger, like progressive Democrat, like I guess maybe reluctant Democratic voters, all of us are just like, oh, thank the fucking Lord. Like nobody is looking behind us anymore. We're just like, okay, we got new energy,

we got new- There's definitely more energy. I have noticed more energy. People seem less doomed and resigned. That's true. Yes, yeah. And that's, if all the news is gonna change day to day, then let's just enjoy that little wave. Let's ride it all the news is going to change day to day, then let's just enjoy, enjoy that, that little wave.

Let's ride it all the way to shore. Here, here. Taylor. Yeah. The United States law changes and Kamala calls you up. Okay. And she's like, Taylor, make sure vaso. Taylor.

Ha ha ha. She says. Got it. Got it. You're confused. Is this my Rudolph? Is this Kamala Harris? I don't know. What's going on now? There's no way to know. You verify. It's Kamala Harris. Great. Taylor Mitchell Basso. Will you be my running mate? Will you be the Vice President of the United States of America?

What do you say? I want to refer back to some of, let me pull up this book actually. I want to refer back to some of the verbiage that I read in this book, the 18 day running mate. Because it has a little segment about how various people who have held the vice presidency feel about the vice presidency. And there's some good quotes in here. America's first vice president John Adams quote, my country has in its wisdom contrived for me the most

insignificant office that ever the invention of man contrived or his imagination conceived Thomas Jefferson, it's the only office in the world in which I am unable to decide in my own mind whether I had rather have it or not have it Okay unable to decide in my own mind whether I had rather have it or not have it." Okay. Okay. Uh, Theodore Roosevelt said that the vice presidency is not a stepping stone to anything except oblivion. Uh, Dwight Eisenhower likened the vice presidency to a kind of coffin.

Uh, Lyndon Johnson, it's like being naked in the middle of a blizzard with no one to even offer you a match to keep you warm. You are trapped, vulnerable, and alone, and it does not matter who happens to be president. Dude, a bipartisan poll returned very negative feedback. So I would respectfully decline. I would respectfully decline. I would say the Glassdoor reviews on this job are not very good. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Today's story, I'm taking you back to 1974 to begin with.

Okay, okay. So you're picking right up where I left off then? Yeah, yeah. So I'm just headed down a little further south. Actually, if you follow that Gulf Coast from Miami, and you just slip over the United States Gulf Coast and dip right down into the Mexican state of Veracruz, which is a long kind of skinny state that's right on the coast. And it takes up a lot of that, like between the Yucatan Peninsula and that big curvature that creates the Gulf Coast of Mexico. It takes up a big chunk of that. So it's 1974 and I want to introduce you to a 31 year old man named Brigido Lara. Okay. Brigido is B-R-I-G-I-D-O. Interesting name. Yeah, it's not a name that I'm as familiar

with. I would have gone Bridget as the crossover of that, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But like boy Bridget, boy-get. If you will, boy-get. But our guy Brigido, he's an insanely talented ceramicist. And he works in his home state, that's where he was born and raised, in Veracruz. Now, 74, like I said, Brugido is listening to the radio when he hears a report that people, and quite a few people from his home state of Veracruz are getting arrested for trafficking archaeological pieces out of Mexico. So we're talking about like, you know, the archaeological record in Mexico is very rich and very deep. And we'll get into a little bit more of the specifics there. But Veracruz is kind of a hotspot

for the archeological record, because there's a lot of different civilizations that lived there. So, Brigido, living and growing up there, he knew this very well, firsthand account. He'd go out into the fields, he'd go play in a stream, find a little pre-Hispanic figurine, find a pottery shard, find this find that it was just kind of in the

makeup of his everyday, like all of his friends and family and anybody who lived there. It was a day to day occurrence to run into a piece from the ancient world. So the news on the radio about someone getting arrested for trafficking one of these pieces, perks his ears up because it's in his local purview. He also is intrigued because as a ceramicist, he is involved in the business of creating ceramics in this ancient time-worn method. You know, an enterprising man could find an opportunity there. It is very true. So it's getting to the point that so many people,

and there's so much news about people getting arrested and taken in by the police that he hears through the grapevine that two such people were actually his cousins. Small world. Not only that but because of his proximity to the industry, his neighbors are kind of pointing and saying, are you involved in this? What's happening here? I think you might... so there's suspicions around what he's doing, his cousins have been detained and Brugido thinks to himself you know what I think I better go explain a few things just to clear the record and to get my cousins out of the clink. So he rolls up to a Yinde prison, which is located outside of the port of Veracruz. And he explains to the guards and the warden,

he says, those men, my cousins, they did nothing wrong. They were selling my original work, my original work. That's all they were doing. And the warden, the guards, they say, oh, okay, all right. But things don't quite go as Brigido had planned because when they let his cousins go, they detained Brigido. See, I was wondering if maybe. And they detained him under the claim that he needed to prove that the pieces of pottery

that his cousins were found in possession of when they were arrested, he needed to prove that those were in fact his creations and not originals that he nor his cousins had looted from an archeological site. Sure, sure. So the claim is either you made these or you're a looter. He sits in prison for a few days until the prison officials,

the administrators, can get word back from the archaeological experts at a nearby museum, the Museo de Arqueológico Jalapa, which for short turns out to be Max, which is really lovely. Sure, sure. Yeah. So I'll refer to it as Max from here on. Ours is the vag, but they don't like it when you pronounce it that way.

No, it's Vogue. The experts at Max, they finally get back to the prison. And the word is that the pieces based on the materials, the style, the patina, everything, those pieces that Brugido's cousins were found with, and that Brugido claims to have made, were not modern replicas. They were in fact, according to the experts, ancient Totunak pottery. Okay. Bonafide antiquities. Okay.

So that means Brhido did not make them. No. And he was lying. Okay. And the authorities go ahead and say, that means if they were original and they were in your possession, or you claim your possession, then you looted them, you can serve a sentence up to 10 years in jail.

Okay. But he does like, fuck. Yeah. What, what am I gonna do? So he gets in touch with a lawyer, in discussions with the lawyer, he's able to secure two bags of clay from his studio, meaning the lawyer goes to a studio grabs these two big things brings them

to the prison, the warden and the prison authorities say, Okay, you can bring this in. They plop it on this big long table. And the table is kind of out in the open. So other inmates can see him, guards see him, and this whole kind of group starts to amass as they watch Burjido take out this dark red clay and mold and mush and squeeze until he makes a figure. It takes about two days to get the figure that he wants and to fire it and do all

the stuff. And within those two days, Projido presents to the prison authorities the intact item that his cousins had in their possession when they were arrested. The authorities, they take it back to the experts at Max at the museum and they say, here's another one. Can you let us know if this is a modern replica or if this is a bona fide artifact of antiquity? Sure, sure, sure, sure. Yeah, so they kind of give it the same test, right? The experts, they deliberate,

they consider all the things they did before with all of their expert knowledge, the patina, the materials, flavor. Yeah, all of it. Yeah. Smell a little taste, smell, all of it. Bounce. Exactly. And experts come back and they say, this is also an antiquity. This is an artifact. Okay. And yet... And yet we saw it get made at the prison. Exactly. So what happens is the Allende jail authorities let Bríjito go. Okay. He can walk free. Okay. His sentence is scrubbed because the whole idea was that he was a looter that would be

up to 10 years under this new law. That's not the case anymore. So where do you think Brigito goes after that, Taylor? What's your guess here? Because word about this, I mean, obviously it's a great story. It's kind of gotten out into the world. This new law is passed, but now this guy has kind of like somehow circumvented it. So he's in the public arena.

Let's go, let's go reality TV. Okay. In 74. Okay. Let's take that back and let's think about it again. Let's go politics. Oh, oh, you've got a little political mind going on here. Yes. I like that. No, he got hired on by the Museo Arqueológico de Jalapa. Smart. Interesting. He got hired on by the Museo Arqueológico de Jalapa.

Smart, interesting. The director of Max calls him up and says, we'd like to hire you as a consultant at the museum. Not only to create replicas for us to put on display and to sell in our gift shop, but we also want you to inspect any suspected forgeries. Interesting. So Taylor, this is the story of master ceramicist Brigido Laura and how, depending on who tells the story,

his expertise either muddied the historical record of Mesoamerica or he is a Mexican folk hero that helped expose the exploitative imperialist extraction of Mexican antiquities. Interesting, that sounds like an interesting character. I'm excited to learn more. Not someone I'd heard of prior to this. I think because we're talking about artwork,

it might be helpful to kind of quote unquote, see some of it. What I heard of prior to this. I think because we're talking about artwork, it might be helpful to kind of quote unquote see some of it. Okay. So I sent you a picture of one of his most famous pieces. Can you see that? Yeah, I can, I can. It's an elephant with a mustache. Yeah, yeah.

It's an elephant with a mustache and he has a job. He's a soldier. And he's a... It's an anthrop with a mustache. Yeah, yeah. It's an elephant with a mustache and he has a job. He's a soldier. And he's a... It's an anthropomorphic sculpture. So body of a man, head of an elephant with a mustache with these beautiful arcing curves that I would associate with the indigenous groups of Latin America.

Yeah. And has sort of like some commonalities to those styles, like these kind of like arcing loops and very beautiful. It's gorgeous. It's absolutely stunning. And there's kind of a, like a certain geometry to it, right? Yeah, yeah. Clear shapes.

It's like very clearly kind of a red clay too. Yes. I think that's helpful. It's not painted. It's a fired, it almost looks like almost, in this picture at least, like a terracotta or something. It looks like a delicious gingerbread a fired. It almost looks like almost in this picture at least like a terracotta or so It looks like a delicious gingerbread elephant man is what it looks like. Oh Okay, eat that bad boy right up you could yeah, you wouldn't though because it's in a museum

That's that's a really good point. Yeah. Thank you. So this is a three foot tall This is a three foot tall hollow ceramic figure of a Mesoamerican wind god by the name of Ehekatl. And this piece is one that Burjiddo has claimed that he has made. Even though it has been in the Metropolitan Museum of New York, It has kind of been around the world. At one time it was in New York's now defunct museum of primitive art, which we can imagine why it's defunct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was awfully primitive in its mindset, it turned out.

One of the things that's kind of interesting about this piece in particular is that it was purchased by a Rockefeller when Brigido was eight years old. So even though Brigido claims to have made this, the likelihood of him being an eight year old with this is a question. There are prodigies everywhere we look. This is true. I mean, maybe not you and I right now, but in general. I'm a 35 year old prodigy. Let me go. I just haven't discovered what I'm a prodigy at. It just hasn't happened. Yeah, exactly. So something that's very particular to this part of the world too, because one of the questions that

at least came up for me in researching was like, wait, what is happening in this part of the world too. Because one of the questions that at least came up for me in researching was like, wait, what is happening in this part of the world? You know, you see something in the dirt and like, boom, this is from the ancient world. Like right away. Right. That's, that's a little different for me. Sure, sure, sure, sure. So the modern Mexican state of Veracruz, which we kind of described as being on that Gulf Coast,

it is home to numerous ancient civilizations. One of the first Mesoamerican cultures, meaning like earliest on record from what they can tell, is the Olmecs. And they dominated the southern part of the modern state of Veracruz. And they enter the historical record in 1400 BCE, over a thousand years before Christ. They were there doing their thing. I hate that that's what we measure it by. I know. I hate that that's what we fucking measure it by. I guess it's before common era. We woked it into that, but what's the common era based on? Baby J. Yeah. Christmas every god damn it. God damn it. Okay, but this culture, which didn't have that marking

So, you know, just think about that. They didn't have that step stone in time. They were so early on in this part of the world that they're kind of known as the cultura madre of the Mesoamerican cultures. So you can see a little bit of their influence in the Mayans and the Aztecs, all these kind of like big known ancient civilizations in Mexico. And one of the things that they're known for are these colossal helmeted heads made from

basalt. And Taylor, I know that we together have visited the Museum of Anthropology in Mexico. Yes, yes, we have. Okay, okay. I was like, one of these big heads that we visited together. Yeah. I suppose now that you mention it, we have visited some large heads together, haven't we? Yes, we have, my dear.

Now that you jog my memory. Now that my large head has been stimulated. Yeah. Not that one. It was stimulated. It was the word stimulated. Yeah, it was all of them in sequence. It was all of them together.

Wow, that's what does it for you, Taylor. Yeah, it's those giant heads. To each your own. But can you imagine those big guys? They're almost kind of square shaped in a way. They're the shape of a Lego man's head. Nailed it, nailed it. I live to give, baby, I live to give.

Born to make you happy. There's not a lot known about the Olmecs. So there's a lot of hypotheses about what these huge heads are representing. They think maybe dignitaries or royalty, but the helmet suggests that they were ballplayers, like the Aztec ball game. Taylor, ball players, like the Aztec ball game. Taylor, you tell us about the Aztec ball game.

Okay, I think of it as a Mayan ball game, but it's a Mesoamerican ball game. Again, so we got the word Mesoamerican, it's apparently something that may be wove through cultures. What I remember is there were stone hoops on the wall, you had a ball that you were attempting to bump through those stone hoops with your hip. And if you lost, you got your fucking head cut off. Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. And I don't know if it was every time or certain times.

Three strikes, you're out, yeah. I don't know what the deal was, but I know, ooh, it was scary. The human sacrifice shit back then, ah. Ooh, gives me the willies. It's so true. And the courts were like the size of like a modern day tennis court, right?

They were a basketball court. They were analogous to a modern sporting court. It had everything the same except for the head cutting off. I do think that it kind of, like you say, it wove through a few different cultures in the same way that a lot of elements from the Olmecs appeared again and again. And even some of their artifacts appeared in the archaeological record of the Aztecs who came much later, which signified that the Aztecs were collecting antiquities in the same way that we collect Aztec antiquities.

And in the same way that someday people will be collecting our like busted old iPads and flip phones. They're gonna love your new headphones. They're very cute. They're very cute headphones. Yeah, it's true. If some little kid can walk around with these 3,000 years later, I'm totally fine with it. So in about 300 BCE, the historical record shows that the Olmecs are overshadowed by other emerging civilizations in the area. So they kind of like, they dim slightly. They dim. They're not, their heart isn't in it as much anymore. They're going through the motions.

Yeah. I hate to see it. In the northern part of the state of Veracruz, there's the Huastec and the Otomis, which kind of are at different points of the timeline. But the civilization that took up residence exactly where Brugido grew up exactly where Brugido grew up are the Totonacs. So the Totonac reside in the north, kind of northern center of the state of Veracruz. And they are really well known for harvesting and cultivating the vanilla bean. Interesting.

That area is the origin of the vanilla bean. Vainilla, mira, gracias. Don't just take a shot, little kids, if you're out there listening to this, number one, your parents should be with you. Number two, don't just take a shot of vanilla when you're making cookies, no matter how cool you might think it is,

you'll like gag and puke, it's disgusting. Who would think that was cool? Nobody I know. Nobody I've ever met, that's for sure. Moving on. But I do kind of like that because I always think of like an indigenous Mexican food being chocolate.

Corn. And like mole and stuff like that, but it's like, oh yeah, and corn. Corn and chocolate, yeah. Dude, let's give it up for Mexico, dude. And Mesoamerica, the indigenous peoples there. My God, what contributions. It's so true.

And the vanilla bean, you know? You can make Taylor Vaso an entire meal using just those. He will eat it up. But you gotta make sure that it's not just vanilla to drink because that will make you, yeah. Yeah, don't do that. Not that I would know. I feel like there's probably a little Totonac kid

who learned that lesson a millennia ago. Probably a few, probably a few. Probably one of those recurring lessons through time. History does repeat itself as we've learned. So the Totonacs were a little bit later. Well, I shouldn't say a little bit. They were much later than Olmecs because Olmecs were so incredibly early.

But the Totonacs, they butted up against the conquistadors, the Spanish conquistadors who came to Mexico. The worst houseguest. The worst. Yeah, bad houseguests, truly, truly bad houseguests. But what's interesting about the Totonac is that the Aztec Empire, which is situated in Tenochtitlan in the center of what is now modern day Mexico, they were such a strong

and overpowering and imperialist civilization that they were spreading to the Gulf Coast and they started overrunning the Torunaks in the Veracruz area. To the point where the Torunaks had to pay taxes, they had to, all of their government was subjugated. Like they were second class citizens. I'm so over empire in any context. I know, right? So weirdly enough, and this doesn't have so much to do with Brachy though, but I just

think it's kind of an interesting historical fact. The Totonac, when Hernan Cortes rolled up on the beaches and he was like, I want to take on these Aztecs, the Totonac were like, let's go, babe. Good. Fuck it, we ball. Finally someone said it. So they supply soldiers and weapons to the conquistador effort as they hike 250 miles from the Gulf Coast to Tenochtitlan. And of course, we know the history. Cortes over the course of a few short years absolutely decimates. Yeah. With the help of smallpox.

As seemed to be the case when these things happened. The Aztec Empire is just ground to a motherfucking halt. Weirdly enough the Totenac, their lands on the Gulf Coast, the Spaniards don't really deem that area very desirable. So the Spaniards kind of leave them alone. They were allies. We don't want your land. We'll certainly make you Roman Catholics, which the Totenac did. You're going to be named John.

You're going to be named Mary. Exactly. Here's a candle. Let's go. But the Totenak, considering that other civilizations were completely decimated, did pretty well. Their culture still remains to this day, their languages are intact. There are about 100,000 folks who identify as Totenaks

to direct descendants. And they're industrious farmers of this area and sugar cane is their main crop. Not vanilla? No, not anymore. But just a shift to the left with sugar. As Celia Cruz was very fond of saying, ASUKA! Again, referencing back to the art, a totanac style that was very easy to spot and kind of unique for the ancient world is that all of their human figures that they depict, not all of them, but an overwhelming amount were smiling.

Aw. I know, which is really lovely. Happy little guys. Who doesn't like happy little guys? Great, cute. Yeah, happy little guys. See, maybe this was the culture. None of those bloodstained altars that I know of, I'm sure everyone's got flaws, but happy little guys, I this was the culture. None of those bloodstained altars that I know of. I'm sure everyone's got flaws, but happy little guys.

I mean, come on. Happy little guys. Happy little pottery guys. We would be in a much better space if our art favored happy little guys more. That's what brought down the Aztecs. That's, well, no, the smallpox really did that. It was the smallpox.

It was the smallpox. It was the smallpox. Back to our main guy, Brjido Lara. You know, I completely, I was really engrossed in your narrative of like Mesoamerica there, a subject I'm very interested in, so I forgot. I know. I'm excited.

I'm excited to rejoin, because I know that we don't actually stray much from that subject matter, but I forgot. Yeah. Well, our little Brjido is a kid. He's growing up on a ranch in this area of Veracruz called La Mixtecilla. Kind of how I mentioned before, as a kid, he'd be in the streams,

he'd be out in the fields, he'd be being a kid, and he would run into these clay ceramic figurines or he would run into you know kind of pottery shards or he would you know kind of stumble upon these ancient artifacts that based on where he was were either Olmec if they were extremely old or they were Totenak. He becomes really, really fascinated by them and he tries to emulate them. He goes to the streams and he pulls out the clay. He's getting all of his materials from the natural world. He's making little things.

Cool. What a cool childhood in that way. He says, quote, I started modeling animals and everything we had in the house, like dogs, pigs, donkeys. I had many failures. I had many, many failures, end quote. So what he's referring to with these failures is that as a young, young kid, he would just take the clay

and kind of mold it and then like let it sit and dry out and bada bing bada boom. It would get water on it, the rain would fall on it, and it would immediately melt. So then he was trying to pay attention to like, okay, how were these figurines that I found in the ground, they're so old, how did they stay hard in this shape? Bluechoo. Blue... what's... what do you mean? Bluechoo? It helps you stay hard. Oh, you mean Viagra.

Bluechoo is like this gum Viagra. It advertises on a lot of podcasts for bros. I think your podcast selection is the algorithm. Yeah, yeah, it's my wrestling podcast. for bros. I think your podcast selection is the algorithm. It's my wrestling podcast. It advertises on the wrestling podcast if you must know. And that's what helps the pottery stay hot. No shame. I'm just letting you know.

Not mad. Blue cheese is not getting paid for this. This is organic marketing. So no, Brigido was not listening to the wrestling podcast, so he didn't know about that. But instead, he was inspecting kind of the natural world and he saw that these little insects that were out in the field, the roquillas, he noticed that their little nests, like a little dirt dauber, like that's what we call him here. He realized that every time they did a prescribed burn on a field, those little clay shelters that the insects made were left intact. They

wouldn't break, it would rain, they would fill up with water, they'd stay hard, blue shoes stay hard. And so then he starts thinking, okay, I have to bake my pieces. They need to be in a fire. I see. I see. I see. At this point, we're in the mid 1950s. And but he does a teenager and he has set up a very rudimentary workshop. But all of his materials are coming from the exact locations that the Totenak and the Almak figurines were made from. He's going to the same streams and having kind of through a trial and error learned some of these firing techniques, some of the chemicals that he used, uses urine to achieve a certain type of patina.

Piss on it! He also said he used Coca-Cola, which is not an ancient technique, but... You don't know. You can't prove that. They found a little Coke bottle somewhere. I'm pretty sure. If you look it up, don't at me. I'm not interested, but I'm pretty sure. I'm not interested, but I'm pretty sure. So he's making these ceramics based on what he saw and what he sees out in his everyday life with all of this plethora of archaeological artifacts around him. And he's saying that he's making originals

using these ancient techniques. And he becomes really popular in Mextequia. And then he starts selling his stuff. So mid 1950s tourism to Mexico is starting to really take off. So more and more gringos are getting further south into Mexico. And they come down and they see Brugidos work and they pay him sometimes 10, even 100 times the amount that he could earn as a harvester in the fields. So, of course, this young boy who grew up in poverty, he's going to sell his shit to these people who come. It only makes sense. At the time, mid 1950s, the 60s, up until the early 70s, the laws in Mexico surrounding archaeological artifacts and

archaeological digs is kind of ambiguous. And it's not very well enforced. Add to that that the government is totally fine with private collectors coming in and buying things and removing them from Mexico. That creates this whole system where some people are looting archaeological sites and selling these real artifacts. Other people are manufacturing fake artifacts and selling them. Now, in Brigido's case, according to him, he never sold anything that he told somebody this is an ancient artifact. So he's not a forger on purpose. Now, the whole system creates a lot of money, right? This and the law is not very clear. So there was this very common occurrence where these middlemen would buy

created artifacts from somebody like Brugido who would say, I made this, I thought this up. This isn't from the ground. This isn't from the historical record. This is my own personal creation. Here, I'll sell it to you." That middleman takes that and then sells it to some gringo in New York saying, genuine. This is a genuine antiquity. They made more, a new set of antiquities from the 1300s just dropped. Exactly. It was a mid-Made album release. So then we get to 1972. But he though, is in his early 30s, the Mexican government enacts the federal law of monuments and archaeological zones, which is still enforced today. So it is a set of laws that is much stricter surrounding the

archaeological record in Mexico. For one thing, private collecting is much more regulated. So at that point, everybody who had a piece from the archaeological record and artifact had to register it with the Mexican government. There's also a law that's part of this that says it is prohibited to export any of these pieces. So you can't take them out of the country legally. And then another element of this whole system of laws, the set of laws is that reproduction of these antiquities cannot take place without a special set of permits given to you by the Mexican authorities. So, Brigido is kind of in this interesting middle ground, right? Because he wasn't...

He certainly wasn't looting any sites. Based on his ancient tradition. Which I don't feel for cultural reasons. Not at all. What gets mucky is that those middlemen are kind of taking it and putting it somewhere else, right? One maybe easy way to alleviate that is if Bruguito signed all of his pieces, then it would kind of note this is not an artifact, but that was not part of

his practice. Why can't he apply for the slices? By the time that he is coming up against these laws, that's when he appears at the Allende jail where his cousins are being held. And he says, no, no, no, they didn't do anything wrong. They were just selling my original artwork. I'm an artisan. And then we have the whole story of him being in jail

and creating a figure and being deemed a looter by the fantastic quality of his work. So when he's released, like I mentioned before, this story kind of takes flight and he's in, you know, in the grapevine, certainly the story. And he is presented with two different job offers. The one is from Max to come and work for them and in that process get a certification from the government of Mexico to be a certified replica maker of ancient artifacts. So that's one job offer that he gets

that includes kind of what you recommended. Like once you skip that done, of course. It's on the up and up, this job offer, right? Come work for the government that was just about to imprison you for 10 years. The other job offer was from a more infamous side of things. It was a group of smugglers who came to him and said, there are no laws in the United States about recreating

indigenous artifacts. What if we, we can smuggle you across the US border? We can sex you up with a workshop and supply you with all the materials that you need. We can get them straight from your backyard in Veracruz and bring them up to you and you can create as many of these artifacts as you want and we can sell them. So we'll give you a workshop and we'll pay for you to be there. Right. So he's one of these scientists that gets hired on Breaking Bad to like cook good meth and ends up with a bullet in the head. Well, I think he must have kind of seen the writing on the wall. He was apprehensive about Halapa because he that was like the big city.

That's the capital of Veracruz. He's like, I don't know anybody there. Like, what am I going to do? Yeah, yeah. Take Pachata lessons? Am I gonna, you know, take up Mahjong? What are you talking about? But certainly with the smuggler's job, he would kind of be in this sweatshop situation, more or less, where he would just be pumping out these figures. No, no. Oh, it's not a good idea. So he decided, you know what? I'll learn Mahjong and I'll go to Halapa. But before he could do that, the director did approach him.

The director of the Max at the time was Alfonso Medellin. And the director says, we want you, we're interested, but I really have to know your bona fides for this job. Are you really up to this task? Because it has to be quite exact. We are not in the business of making kitschy things for gringos. We are in the business of really studying

the archaeological record. So the director tells him that there is a very critical and important archaeological zone in Veracruz. It's called El Zapotal. And there's a very rare sculpture that they have found there. It's a seated skeleton with this huge head dress and a skull-like face sticking out its tongue. Yes, it's a skeleton skills test.

It's actually a depiction of the Totenac god of death, Muklan Tukuli. It's so huge that it would be extremely hard to move, but also it's extremely fragile. So if they even attempted it, it would just... It would just... Gingerbread. Alfonso Medellín, it would just it would just gingerbread. Alfonso Medellin, he says, you know what, but he though, if you can make me a copy of this, that we can bring back to Max, you

got the job. You got the job for life, my babe. But he though, was like, Okay, how am I gonna do this? How am I gonna do this? Some other experts, some other replicator makers at the museum are like, Okay, we were thinking about it. We're thinking a mold. We should just go ahead and take this big mold of it. And then that'll be the easiest thing. We can bring the mold back and build from there. And Brighido is like, that's not going to work. It's too big. It's too fragile.

What I'm going to do is I'm going to go up there and I'm going to bring all my clay and I am going to sculpt by hand by sight what I see just the way that it was originally created. He's like, I'm going to just follow exactly what they did. So he's in Zofotol for five months. He's working tirelessly tirelessly because these are huge. This is a huge sculpture. And not only does he get a pitch perfect copy of this motherfucker, he makes two other copies of different sizes to bring back to the museum. Wow. He's like, Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you I think you just implied that you wanted three.

So I just had some extra clay and you need something for the gift shop. So Brugido joins the team at Max in 1975 as a restorer. That's his official title. It's a government job. It pays well, comes with a pension, nice and steady. The one thing though, and I'll quote Bruglio de here, he says, when I come here, meaning Max, they take away my inspiration to do my own work. And from there they got me saying, I want a replication of this, I want a copy of this,

a copy of that, a copy, a copy, just reproductions. End quote. Right, right, right. And the artist has his own hopes and dreams that he wishes to accomplish outside of the mere reproduction of the work of others. Amen, my brother, comes in a bed of mouth sales. And I'm glad you did,

because I didn't write that part out, so perfect. Nailed it, yeah. No, there you go, that's fine. You might think, okay, that's the end of the story. He like, at least go. You might think, OK, that's the end of Barjito's story. At least he's not in jail. And he is creating work that is beautiful and meaningful and being seen.

And Max is this pinnacle of archaeological research in Mexico, second only to the Museo de Arqueológico in Mexico City. It's like he's done it, he's reached it. But in 1985, the governor of Veracruz has this pet project. He loves archeology. And he's the governor of Veracruz, which is like this huge seat of the archeological record.

The governor, he wants to revamp Max. He wants to do a complete renovation of the entire building. He hires an American architectural firm to do it. He then orders the mayors of the different municipalities of Veracruz to send an archaeological piece, like their tippy-toppiest best piece, from their specific regions, they're going to send it to the max to be on display.

But the other part of this is that he himself is going abroad. He's going to London, he's going to New York, he's going to Christie's, he's going to Sotheby's and he is purchasing pieces from these prestigious auction houses to bring back, repatriate in essence, these Veracruzano artifacts from the private collections and bring them back to the max to be on display. It's a big passion project. It's a lot of money. Those things are expensive. It's just kind of this big, huge deal. The governor goes and he has purchased a few of these items from foreign auction houses

and they all come back to the Max. They're in the warehouse and a janitor bud, but he does comes to him and say, hey, they got the shipment and we should go and take a look. It probably is pretty cool. Brugido goes and sees all these items unpacked and he points at that one. He says, I made that.

He points at that other one. He says, yeah, that was me too. Oh no. He points at that one. He's like, yeah, that one in the back. I remember making that. Yeah, I remember that. Oh no. And of course, the question is like, how do you know? You didn't sign them. Like, there's no documentation. How do you know? His response

and I quote, well, how do you know? His response, and I quote, "'Well, hey, you know what you make. "'I have all of that here,' points to his head, "'inside my mind and my mind, everything, "'every single thing,' end quote." This is a bad situation. Yeah. This presents some complications. This presents some complications. This is a bad situation. This presents some complications.

This presents some complications. He was too good. He was too good. And he starts to think like, I don't have to tell them. I don't have to tell them that I made them. This can just be a secret between me and the pieces. Nobody else has to know. But he's probably been at the max long enough.

He's seen these people so passionate about the archaeological record and trying to understand these ancient civilizations. It's the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do. He goes to the director and he says, some of those items that were purchased, those bona fide artifacts, I made them. And he's he's a little worried, right? He's like, I might get fired, like, what's gonna happen? He's already had a run in with the law with this. Yes, nothing happens to him. I'll spoil that. The director and officials at the museum quietly package those artifacts back up and they keep them in the warehouse. They don't tell a whole bunch of people,

they just kind of say, you know what, all right, let's just boom, boom, boom. We're not showing these. These ones, the tests, the polls came back bad, negative. The viewer experience was low. The focus groups weren't into it. We're gonna cycle them back to their times. They weren't necessarily trying to sweep them

under the rug. They were just like, okay, that was a lot of money. And we're gonna charge ahead with the opening and then we're gonna figure this shit out. So, October, 1986, the museum opens. It's this big, huge affair, right? Like people are invited from all over the world to come. The president of Mexico is there.

All these art collectors. Yeah. Quetzalcoatl. Exactly. And there is an American architect who also works as a freelance journalist who arrives at the opening, Ohino Logan Wagner. You know, it's not swept under the rug, especially, but he does initial run in with the law, like

that, that story that I opened with, like that's kind of like shared widely because it's so entertaining. He learns this story and he's kind of interested. And as a freelance journalist, he asks another freelance journalist friend of his named Mimi Crossley, who's also a professor of Latin American archaeology. He asks around, he talks to Barjido a little bit at this opening, he contacts Mimi and they together decide we're gonna do an article on this. We're gonna say some shit, because this has to be said. They pitch the story to a now defunct magazine called Connoisseur Magazine.

It's specialized in collecting and fine art. So it wasn't archeological, but it was the private collection crew. They got in advance to travel to Mexico and research it further. So that's what they do. They interview and spend a whole bunch of time with Brejito. They see him in his workshop,

they ask about all his methods. At this point, his workshop is so advanced, he like cures clay for years on end, he like keeps it in water to make it extremely soft. And like, he has all these different patinas that he uses and all these different clays and tools and kilns and it's just it's gnarly. Yeah. And the urine, the urine, he's still working with the urine. It's really, I think there is still some code.

Yeah. So seeing him work so closely, they start to realize that Brighido has a, he's a master replicator and he knows these techniques so well, but he still has his own style. And they can start to see that his hands and his feet in particular, whether it's a human figure or an animal figure, they're always extremely detailed. And looking at the historical record of what they think are confirmed artifacts,

they see that like, yeah, that is a little different. But he those stuff is like, if you look at the hands and the feet, that might tell you a little bit about whether or not this is but he though Lara original, right? They find that there are a few items, not only in private collections, but on display at major museums, including the Met, the Metropolitan Museum of New York, the St. Louis Museum, and the Dallas Museum. There are items in their collection that are not from the historical record. What a conundrum because because that means that the providence of all of these must be falsified. Another strange layer to it is that Brugido of his own account has said, no, no, no, I

created some of my own. I took that alligator and I put it with this person, or I took, you know, I like added this and I thought that was kind of interesting and da da da. So there's elements of it that it's like, an archeologist looks at that and surmises, oh, they had a very unique relationship to the jaguar or a very unique relationship to the crocodile, right? Oh no. So they're literally drawing conclusions

about the society based on the art that they find that is not from that society. Oh no, what a pickle. It's pretty pickle. Truly. So being the good journalists that they are, Eugenio and Mimi, they contact these major museums and let them know, hey, we're going to publish a piece and we're fairly certain

that those items that you have and you claim to be original are not. The Met and the St. Louis Museum, pack them up, put them in the warehouse. We'll deal with it later. The Dallas Museum says, oh, okay, let's test them. Let's see what dates we get. Which that whole process is its own pickle. The process that's used the most for this type of dating is called thermoluminescence testing. It's a process where you have to take a piece from the artifact and grind it up. So of course the that way. But the other thing is that because it is testing a physical piece and a small physical piece

and not the whole thing, let's say we take a piece from the head of a sculpture and we just test that. It could be that the head was repaired in 600 AD or whatever, right? But the whole figure was made a millennia before that. But you've only tested that one spot. Right, so we gotta switch cheese this bitch.

We gotta dig a couple divots out of that bad boy and hit those strategic locations. Right, which no one wants to do anyway. I think that you should at least get to have a party where you smash it. And then you can have pieces to test. And then you won't care about taking the little chips out of the museum. There you go. See, you're always thinking. And you'll know how old it was.

That seems fair. That seems fair for everybody. Yeah, fair to everybody. The museum did test the item that they had, the artifact, and they did find that it was not from between the years of 600 to 900 AD, but it was in fact contemporary. It was from 1928. And that account, Bruguito's eyewitness account of an item that he saw, account, but he does eyewitness account of an item that he saw just saying like, that was me, I did that. It turns out to be true. It's also this other pickling of the situation, right? Is that like, you could question, was he just like picking random ones and being

like, I made that, I made that, I made that. No, no, I believe him. I don't see his reason to lie at this point. And he's implicated himself as a pretty honest man throughout, I think. Like, he hasn't really fucked anyone over yet. Of course, the Connoisseur article takes over the art world, and then the subsequent testing from the Dallas Museum is fueling the flames, and everyone is like, wait, wait, wait, is my piece an original or is it a Brigido Lara?

Some people are like, if it's a Brigido Lara, it's not gonna be the thousands of dollars that I paid for it, but it's also Brigido Lara. So maybe there's something to that. Because now he's becoming this name, right? He's like, he's a known entity. This sort of person you might make a podcast about. Now, you'll also remember, I showed you an early image of one

of Brugido's pieces, A Het Kettle, the Mesoamerican wind god. Now that one, Brugido claims as his, but it was purchased by Rockefeller when he was eight years old. Right, right. There's kind of this question with this one in particular where it's like, how is this making sense in this whole story? You liar son of a bitch, what's going on? Now one of the ideas that has come out in trying to figure out like,

is this the Brachito Lora? Is this not? And he has claimed to so many artifacts, like thousands of artifacts at this point. Yes. Really? Like one that was purchased from me was eight years old. Okay. Hmm. Okay.

I'm gonna stop being less credulous and we remember what show I'm on. So another theory kind of develops that even though Burjido has this claim that he is self-taught and that everything he learned, he learned through trial and error on his own, this theory develops that maybe he was an apprentice to somebody else. Another master ceramicist who created some of these early pieces that Brüedo saw created and

maybe even had a hand in helping create, but isn't the only artist of them. So we're inventing a character. We're inventing a character. We're complicating the problem. I agree with you. I think some people are a little overwhelmed by the amount that he made. And so they think, well, I can't just like with Shakespeare, right? Okay. And it'd been one person to have written all those plays. No, because he'll see a new one and be like, yeah, that was me. Another example of how kind of complicated this all gets.

In 2023, there was a radio ambulante story on Brigido and this whole phenomenon kind of thing. They had come across this piece of Mesoamerican artwork that was in a Chilean museum. They are able to get in contact their interview, but he though in person, and they show him a picture. And they say, What, what about this? Do you recognize this? And he says, Yeah, that's mine. I Yeah, I do recognize that. I remember having that in my hands.

And then they ask the current director of Max, a man named Alfredo de Gado, and they say, looking at this series of photographs, would you say that this is a Brejito or perhaps an original? So the question is no longer like, is it real or is it fake? Brujido is such a name that is like, yeah. Delgado, who's an expert, archeologist,

director of the MAX, he says, quote, it is not brujido style, neither in the firing, nor in the finish, nor in the proportions. If brujido had made it, I think he would have taken more care of the details in order to make it look more pre-Hispanic so that there would be no doubts about its authenticity." End quote.

So Bríjido wants attention. So Bríjido likes this feeling and gets a bit greedy. The interviewers say, that's interesting because Brigido did say it was his. To which Alfredo responds very similar to you, quote, well, so he wants to create his own myth. Of course he does.

I love the maestro. No, he calls him maestro. I love the maestro very much, of course. But dot dot dot. And at this point, when the radio of Ambulante folks are talking to the director of the Max, he's taking the photographs, they're, they're actually in an iPad, and he's enlarging them. And he's kind of looking at the hands. And he looking at the feet and he says to them, you know what? I don't, this might be a brujido. This might be a brujido. So he's still not even certain,

even with this understanding that like brujido might be working from this place of like wanting to be recognized as an artist and kind of the myth around him. Significant. We love our mythical artists. We love our Van Gogh kind of thing. I don't know if I love that. Yeah, I do love that shit.

You fucking salivate to it, you dirty dog. Your big heads, me, cut off ears. It's true. With all this information, Radio Ambilante, they contact the Chilean Museum and they say, we want to let you know, but we also want to interview you that Brigido has claimed that this is his and it's kind of called into question. The director of the Chilean Museum, a woman named Pilar Allende Estévez, she replies, that's very interesting because when we had an earthquake that item fell to the ground and broke into 135 pieces. In the restoration process we realized that one of the arms, the left

arm had been filled with like essentially chicken wire and plaster. So it had been reconstructed before in an extremely crude way, not in that kind of a museum quality way in a way where someone was just interested in the outward look of it, not in the like maintaining the integrity of the whole thing. Yeah. She said that they still restored it, they put it all back together. They had their restorers there work on it.

It's on display as its whole piece, but she... Wait, so we just still restored it and put it back. Well, that's the thing though. Let's not think too hard about that arm full of chicken wire. According to the principles of the Chilean Museum of Pre-Columbian Art, a figure that is restored and can be a mix of ancient and contemporary parts is still considered an artifact, is still considered a heritage piece. Are you not curious though about the arm? Regardless of the legalities, regardless of whether it's technically... Don't you wonder about the arm? Doesn't that maybe mean that the

whole thing is fake or are we just like gonna fucking brush that off? Well, and then there's the other layer too. It still could be a Brejito original that then somebody else did this crude restoration on. Then it got into the museum, then it fell in an earthquake and they're like, oh what is this? What a beast-ung existence this piece of art has had. But it also is revealing, especially this part about you could have like a jigsaw of modern and of contemporary and ancient materials and still be considered an artifact. That just points to the fact that archaeology is in no way an exact science. There's just too many variables, too many gaps, too many holes. It's not gonna happen. And I think Brigido is a really amazing way to illuminate that, I guess?

To like bring to light how that gets so muddied. He's working in a tradition of creating these pieces and creating these ceramics in the same way that the people before him did. And I don't know, I think a lot about how like the way that archaeology and anthropology wants to put things behind glass and create these boundaries and how Yeah. Brugido is kind of circumventing those, not from that world. He did retire from Max in 2021. He continues to make ceramics. He has a still an elaborate workshop from which he works out of. His dream is to recover all of his pieces

that are scattered throughout the world. All 1000 of them that you've claimed, sir. Right. With whose money are you doing that? And if possible exhibit them in a turtle shaped museum that he would like to build in his hometown in Veracruz. Who can argue with that? Yeah, no, no, it's fair.

On that we are certainly aligned. There's just like, yeah, there's just so many complications to the story because his legacy as an artist is like, there's either the very negative view that what he did was borderline illegal and he's muddying the historical record and we will never understand the Totenac or the Olmec worldview properly because of what he has inserted into the historical record. That's pretty far on the pessimism scale. That feels a little harsh.

That's harsh. I don't think he did that to the TOTA Manifold for a bit. And then there's this other legacy story where he is a very kind and extremely skilled expert, one-in-a-million talent that's cooking. Big Vatapist. It's cooking for years. It's simmering. And he's kind of an eccentric who's looking for some recognition for his work. Yeah. And we love that too. We want our artists to be disappointed when they're not. And then there's kind of this third line of legacy that what he did by creating his own pieces of art and inserting them into this very lucrative business, this very lucrative commerce around artifacts. What he did in doing that was exposing... he's Banksy, right?

He's Banksy. He's exposing the way that imperialist powers came in, purchased these for a very high fee, purchased these items, and then removed them from their country of origin and removed them from a context. I mean, that is certainly a very easy way that none of this could have happened is if people weren't willing to pay so much money for artifacts, right?

Death taxes in the black market, man. Unavoidable. And so yeah, he has this like Banksy vibe of exposing this capitalist, imperialist whole system. And instead of the folks in Veracruz who are trying to make a buck off of tourists, they aren't the people who need to be jailed. It's the fucking Rockefellers who need to get their shit in line, right?

Yeah. Interesting. Fair point. Maybe his legacy is a little bit of all of those things, you know? I was thinking that. I was like, it's somewhere in the middle. It's a little bit of this. It's a little bit of that.

I appreciate his commitment to being helpful yet unhelpful. It's a good one. I'll finish with this. As a retiree, one of the other things that Brajido does is he devotes several days a week to teaching a ceramics class for the children of Jalapa. And he says, quote, some of them are very talented, end quote.

So hopefully his tradition of creating amazing ceramics based. He'll take the most gifted ones aside to show them the test bucket. Hopefully this tradition continues for a long, long, long time. Cool. In the end, what did you learn about art from this?

Just make it, fuck it. Just make it, I agree. But just, you know, just do it. Start that podcast. There's those vape tricks. You got this. Yeah, like blowing those with a vape. That's an art form. Should we learn like a cool vape trick and and like have it be part like a bittersweet vape trick?

Bittersweet vape trick? Sure. I'm down with that. We'll figure it out. But no pressure, Bitter Sweet Infamy is free, baby. You can always support us by liking, rating, subscribing, leaving a review, following us on Instagram at Bitter Sweet Infamy, or just pass the podcast along to a friend who you think would dig it. Stay sweet. My sources for this episode were the book, The 18 Day Running Mate, McGovern, Eagleton, and the Campaign in Crisis by Joshua M. Glasser, The Thomas Eagleton Affair Haunts Candidates Today by NPR staff on August 4th, 2012 on NPR, and the Wikipedia pages for George McGovern, Thomas Eagleton, McGovern-Fraser Commission, and the 1972 United States presidential election.

The sources that I used for this episode include an article from UPI Archives, written April 25th, 1987, about the artifact in Dallas. I looked at arts and antiques for collectorsors of the Fine and Decorative Arts. An article there entitled Protecting the Pre-Columbian, written by Jonathan Candel. I liked an article in Mental Floss, Brejito Lara, the artist whose pre-Columbian fakes fooled museums around the world. Written by Kirsten Fawcett, September 18th, 2017. I looked at indigenousmexico.org, an article entitled Veracruz, the third most indigenous state of Mexico, written by John Schmal. I looked at archive.org to find the Connoisseur magazine written by Mimi Crossley and Jujil Logan Wagner, entitled Ask Mexico's Masterly, Brigito Lora, Is it a Fake? Which appeared in the May 1987 edition of Connoisseur.

I read an article from Cabinet Magazine, Brigito Lora, post-pre-Columbian ceramicist, Making Old New, written by Jesse Lerner. I read an article in Mexico City Helicopter entitled Brigito Lora, the pre-Hispanic art imitator whose work graces museums. And a very helpful source was from Radio Ambulante, their episode Mudman or Hombre de Barro, episode 1 of season 13 published on September 19th, 2023. Radio on Bulante is a really great resource, it's a podcast or NPR in Spanish, but I was able to read the translation in English. And lastly, I looked at the Wikipedia pages for the Totonack, Omex, and Aztecs.

A special shout out to all our monthly subscribers. We've got Jonathan Mountain, Erica Jo Brown, Lizzie D, Dylan the Person, Sasha the Cat, and a new addition, Soph. Thank you so much, Sophie, for helping us out. If you're interested in helping to support the podcast and get your hands on some monthly subscriber exclusives, we have the Bittersweet Film Club over there just waiting for you. Head over to coffee.com slash bittersweetinfamy.

That's K-O-F-I dot com slash bittersweetinfamy. You can throw us a few bucks. Bittersweet Infamy is a member of the 604 Podcast Network. The interstitial music you heard earlier was written by Mitchell Collins. And the song you're listening to now is Tea Street by Bryan Steele.