Bittersweet Infamy - #112 - A Spirited Tour of Spiritualism

Episode Date: October 27, 2024

Halloween special + season finale! Josie tells Taylor about the haunting history of the modern Spiritualist movement—from the crafty teen sisters who brought it to life, to the high-profile feud between Harry Houdini and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle that nearly caused its demise. Plus: get dressed up for Jimi (地味) Halloween, Japan's costumed celebration of the mundane and everyday; and walk with us amongst the dead at Old City Cemetery in Galveston, Texas.

Warning. This podcast episode is so frightening that it may have an unforeseen effect. It may kill you. Therefore, we assure you that we will pay for the funerary services of anyone who dies of fright during this episode of Trick or Treat Infamy. I'm Taylor Basso. And I'm Josie Mitchell. On this podcast, we share the stories that live on in infamy.

The strange and the familiar. The tragic and the comic. The bitter. And the sweet. Welcome to Trick or Treat Infamy, everybody. Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Isn't that the most frightening thing of all? Separation anxiety? I'm looking forward to like calling you and just talking and not about a non-fiction infamous story. That's true. We can just have like conversations now for one month. We can just have conversations. Yeah. Although we're still going to be planning our subscribers only November chest stravaganza over at coffee.com. Is that the name now?

I've made it the name unilaterally. It made itself. I don't remember exercising the democratic option in that particular regard. Feels like the name made itself. It wasn't, it was neither of us. We were just the medium, you know? You know, it's true. We were the pawns.

So we're gonna be playing a bit of chess in November. And then this October, we just finished taping and I'm gonna get it together. Hopefully should have a little ad for it for this episode. Our finale for the season of Bittersweet Film Club, that's our coffee subscriber exclusive series where we did a double header of Orphan 2009 and Orphan First Killed 2022. So we're getting in the holiday spirit. Yeah.

Losing parents, getting orphans. Yeah. Losing parents, acquiring orphans. Old. Losing parents, acquiring orphans. Old kid, gone. New kid, imported. It's all happening. Fresh new child. Josie, how have you been enjoying this spooky season, this holiday season? I've been having a good time. I've been having a great time.

We haven't decorated for Halloween yet, which we're getting kind of late. We got to do that. But fun fact about Houston, you can't put a carved pumpkin outside or it will melt. It's still too hot and humid. You get like some sparks, some colorful sparks coming off the ground and it just kind of turns into goo

like that Senator from X-Men who I always reference. Oh yeah, yeah. There's a Senator from X-Men who turns into, it's not important, happy Halloween everyone. So what is a more common then method of decoration in Houston? You can put a full pumpkin outside. That works. And then the night of Halloween or just before you carve it.

Oh, like an uncarved pumpkin. I thought you meant as opposed to like a half a pumpkin. Right, okay, no. You got a full pumpkin in this city. Okay, that's cool. That's cool. When's the last time you carved a jack-o-lantern? Oh, you know, that has been a hot minute. Probably because it's a hot concrete.

It's a hot concrete minute over here. I think there's one October when I was in San Diego. I think that may have been the last time I carved a pumpkin, sadly enough. When you were home? Yeah, I did. I tried. I tried to do the Hokusai wave in a pumpkin. Oh, that's ambitious. It was. And like, I held it up- Do you carve?

...next to a picture, and I was like, oh, kind of, but if you- if I didn't have the picture, I wouldn't be able to see it. That was the mistake was comparing. No, I would see- I would think I would get that right away. Maybe I just like attribute you as like a skilled artist a pumpkin artist in my head I will say when I was young I didn't know and this i'm gonna say we didn't have them in canada But that could be a lie It could just be that I was ignorant of them and we had them in canada all along But anytime much in the way that you were in china anytime. You don't know anything for me

It's that we didn't have that in canada just doesn't exist like CVs you know so I didn't know that there were those little kits that you could get that has like a little pumpkin knife and a little pumpkin chisel so I was out there like watching my dad who's a fantastic artist a very skilled physical media kind of artist use like a kitchen knife to carve pumpkins and then I'm in there with my clumsy hands being like, why doesn't my stuff look like Dan's? And come to find out it's because only an extraordinarily talented artist should be in there

with a kitchen knife and the rest of us should probably get one of these little cats. Yeah, the little serrated orange handled knives, yeah. I will say, I also cut you off when you're about to say, what else does one do in Halloween, other than in Houston, other than carve a pumpkin? Oh, you know the typical you trick or treat, you go to a party, you wear a costume,

you watch a scary movie, you know? Yeah, light as a feather, stiff as a board. I got you, I got you. Mm-hmm, Ouija board, that kind of thing. Cool, I've had a good season of celebrating Halloween with more to come. There's more yet to come. Ooh, what's been the highlights?

So here's what I've done so far. I went to go see, it was my friend fellow's birthday, friend of the podcast, and I went to go see Nosferatu, dubbed with Radiohead. Right, I remember you going to that. Was it cool? It was cool. I think it was really interesting to see with the exception

of obviously the radio head over dubbing, which is its own kind of modern touch. It was interesting to see a movie from when they had not so clearly laid out the conventions of film. E.g. there were moments where you couldn't really tell when it was like day or night. So you would have like Orlok, who's our fake Dracula, like sneaking around with his coffin in broad daylight or seemingly so. And you'd be like, wait a minute, I don't know. Shouldn't he sparkle? Stephanie Meyer, help me out. It was just interesting because it's like a 1922 silent film, right?

So we're really, really, we're going back a ways. Yeah. So there was that. Went to Fright Nights. Oh, you did. It was reintroduced to our old friend, the birthing wall. Really? Apparently, the birthing wall is like a mainstay and has been for at least

10 years, apparently. But the birthing wall, they drag out every Halloween, make you scooch through this weird inflatable wall in their haunted houses. And that's what they call it. I think that's our name for it. Yeah. OK, good. Because I was like, wow, that's the official name. Like maybe your name for it even, I wanna say.

Oh, okay, okay. It needs to be sanitized at least every night, at least every night. I don't know if that happens though. I would just be in there like chucking a bucket of turpentine into that baby. And then of course, because it's a weird birthing while I go like, just absorb it all up, suck it all in.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, post COVID, good Lord, yeah. Dear Lord. And then tomorrow I'm going to a wrestling-themed murder mystery at Science World. It's like a game. Whoa, that's so fun. Very tailored content, literally and figuratively, right?

Oh my gosh. Who puts that on? Go and meet that person. Science World After Dark, no idea. Okay. But I'll let you know how that is. Go to the About page of Science World. See who's cracking those Taylor themed.

What's this about? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, this is all about it. Well, so is this end. Ha ha ha. It's nice to feel the nip of that trick or treat and for me fall air on your nose, isn't it?

It is. It's very nice. In Houston, I guess you don't really know about that with these melting pumpkins. But well, it's just it's no longer like 100 degrees. It's like 89 degrees. Ooh, yeah, say like a balmy 93. Yeah, we get to like drop out of the 30s.

It's like, oh, sweater weather. This is pretty nice. Wait, what are you going to be for Halloween? Last year I said I was going to be Parappa the rapper and I never was so I might do that. I bought this large soft pink like teddy bear fur coat that a wrestler named Darby Allen wears and that's how I kind of came across. It's a very comfy coat. I didn't buy it because I want to look like this guy but now that I've bought it I might just be him for Halloween because I now have this fur coat. Yeah it may have chosen you again. It may have chosen you. And of course, film club members and coffee subscribers will know that Josie, you're going to be a dog

handler this year. Still got to get my costume. But yeah, that's the plan. Some thick panty hose mid mid calf, little skirt, a very modest blazer, sensible heels. Are you gonna have a little clicker? Oh, I should, shouldn't I? Yeah, I'll have to get one of those. That feels like you could make one of those, right? Yeah, we'll see how unaffectual it is with B-Man. That'll be fun.

Well, Batman's not your dog though. Batman's the announcer. Yes, yes. He will wear like a little sparkly blazer and have a little microphone chew toy. Have you done this? Like, how are you gonna get a little sparkly blazer and have a little microphone chew toy. Have you done this? Like how are you gonna get a little blazer together for him at the last minute here?

Amazon, baby. As long as it's there, as long as we haven't bought out all the doggy blazers. If Batman's gonna be the announcer, then who's your dog, Josie? Uh, Mitchell is gonna be a big puppy. It's Mitchell. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

I'm allowed to say it, cause he's a dog. Ha ha ha bitch! I'm allowed to say it cause he's a dog! Okay, I see it. I see the logic. Okay. Yeah, we did a little switcheroo there. See what happened? That's cute. Yeah.

That's what Halloween's all about. It's called irony, folks. Look it up. Sure. Yeah. Are you looking it up? What does it say? Email us.

We don't know what it means That's enough of that shit do you feel like a minfamous Josie? I always feel like I'm infamous. I just wake up every day I'm like, I hope I get a minfamous today, but you know what today very disappointing today Today will not be a disappointment What like once every two weeks you get your rocks and that's it. 13 bad days of Fortnite, but once you get that sweet, sweet, minfamous folks, it all feels better.

It's so true. Okay, well it's good that we're talking about Halloween costume parties, cause I have a little costume party for you. And who better to attend? This costume party than our dear friend friend of the podcast fictional Josie. Oh It's been a while, huh been a while. Thank you. Yeah for singing Creed to me That means a lot to me

Ironically, I've been having a bad day. That picked me right up. Alright. So I want you to imagine Josie, fictional Josie, that the two can merge, the consciousnesses can merge, that not only are you going to be going to the chicest, the demode, the most trendy Halloween party in the entire Japanese social calendar. Oh shit, okay. We're back in Japan, frequent venue,

frequent infamous venue that we come across in these shows. And not only is fictional Josie going to this party, but so is fictional Batman. Oh my gosh. Yeah, cause we have a joint costume, so. You have a joint costume, exactly. And so you're sitting there with Batman, he's struggling against this little sparkly blazer and you notice that one of his ears is floppy.

It won't come up. So you keep trying to like push perk it up, but it keeps flopping down, flopping down. Yeah. We all have bad hair days. We all have bad hair days. So you figure I'm going to go to the daily portal Z annual company Halloween party. Okay. And as you arrive at the venue, you notice there's a step and repeat, like kind of a little red carpet, some rope set up, and there's a photographer there with like a white lanyard around his neck. You take him to be an employee and you're like, hi! Like you're there with Batty, you're getting ready to take your pics, and then this guy's kind of like not really paying attention to you.

You're like, excuse me. And he's like, hi, I can't really, you know, I'm sorry, just I can't take your picture, you know, you're like, oh, okay, sure, sounds good. The first thing you notice is it's kind of a party of, you know, oddballs. You're not really seeing a lot of like, in an American party, it would be like, you're not seeing Elmo, you're not seeing vampire, you're not seeing Wolfman. In a Japanese context, you're not seeing Kuchisaki Onna, you're not seeing Wolfman in a Japanese context, you're not seeing Kuchisaki Onna, you're not seeing Gojira. You know, none of them. It just seems like a lot of people who like,

maybe they just came from work, everyone's kind of dressed a little casual. You certainly feel a little overdressed. You're like, you don't really see a lot of costumes. You're a bit confused. This sounds like a recipe for a stiff drink. That's what you're thinking. And you go to the person who's coming around with what

should be trays full of drinks and canapes. But you notice that the plates are actually empty. And you're kind of OK with that. But this waiter is actually like maybe a bit overly defensive about this. They're being like, I'm so sorry. You know, the kitchen is out of food. The chef just actually just went to the store to pick up more fish and everything

is going to be sorted in a second. We promise like, please, please forgive us for the inconvenience. You're like, okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't even know it was an inconvenience, but okay. Yeah. Nothing's kind of working at this party seems like. So you just go over to a random, you're like, okay, the staff seems like maybe a bit disorganized here. Why don't I talk to one of my fellow guests and you go over to this guy and you say, this is a pretty nice party, huh? And he's like, you say this of course in Japanese, you speak pretty decent Japanese. Yeah, fictional Josie, get on it!

Fictional Josie has all kinds of talents! And this guy says, yeah, this is like even bigger than that party in Last Action Hero. And this guy says, yeah, this is like even bigger than that party in Last Action Hero. You're like, Last Action Hero? He's like, yeah, or is like even bigger than that party in last action hero. You're like last action hero. He's like, yeah, or total recall. And you like look down his shirt and an oiled Arnold Schwarzenegger flexing and posing. Okay. Okay. Like the 1970s Arnold. Yeah. Classic, classic Arnie. And then, and then you see in this man's hand, he has like a rolled up poster of what appears to be Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Okay. And so you turn to this guy and you're like, uh, I'm just going to go. I think I saw someone I knew over here. I'll be back. And you know, good one. Good one. Fictional Jose. From that conversation, you go over to a woman with a small dog.

So you're like, okay, maybe a friend for baddie. I don't know why he's baddie now, by the way. It's his fictional version. Yeah, fatty battle juice. And you see this woman has a dog, but she's like sniffling a lot. And she has like, her eyes are extremely bloodshot and red. And she also has like a pack of Kleenex that she's like dabbing at her nose with him between sniffles and like greeting you. That's a little alarming, but yeah, okay. You're finally getting kind of stressed out by this very weird party. No one really seems in costume. What's going on? Who are these people? What is this event? And you go over to a guy who looks just as confused as you are and you're like, okay, perfect. This guy is like wearing a tuxedo. Maybe he's James Bond. I don't know who he is,

but he looks confused. So fictional Josie, you go over to him and you say, dude, like what in Japanese? Yeah. What is this party? What is going on? And the guy's like, oh, I like, don't even ask me. I'm just here for the free food. I mean, I'm just, and you look down and you see in his hand, there's a little hand bill for like a wedding. Not this. He doesn't seem to be in the right place. Oh, okay, okay. You look down at the lanyard around his neck. He's wearing a white lanyard,

just like the photographer was, just like in retrospect, just like everybody at this party was. The lady with the dog, the Arnold Schwarzenegger guy. Okay. Everyone's wearing these white lanyards. So you look at this man's white lanyard, this man with the wedding pamphlet,

and you read it in Japanese, you know, you're here, Ghana's a little rusty, but you push through. I get it, yeah. And you see on his lanyard, it says, man who took a wrong turn leaving the bathroom and accidentally walked into a different party. So then you look back at the other people you've talked to,

you look back at this woman with the dog in her hand and with the bloodshot eyes and the lanyard around her neck says, person who still cuddles with their dog, even though they have severe allergies. Okay. You go over to the other guy, his lanyard, Arnold Schwarzenegger super fan. You turn to even the staff, you turn to the waiter

who you're starting to realize isn't a waiter at all, but a person wearing a lanyard that says waiter who is overly apologetic that the kitchen has run out of appetizers You look at the photographer whose lanyard says Photographer who just realized that he packed the wrong kind of film and cannot use his camera Oh, lastly you turn to Batman with his one floppy ear And you notice that he's wearing a lanyard too and his lanyard says statue of hachiko that's when you realize josey the reason you've been looking around and not seeing any costumes is because these are the costumes josey you're invited to the hottest new halloween tradition

in japan jimi hallow, or as it's roughly translated, mundane Halloween, an annual costume celebration of the everyday and unremarkable. Oh my gosh! I love it! Wait, so B man's the statue of Hachiko? Yeah, so all those ones that I said there were more or less ones that I just made up.

Okay, I'm getting it. The statue with the ear, okay. The statue with the ear. OK. The statue with the floppy ear. Yeah, exactly. So to give you a quick background on this, and there really wasn't much more background that I could find in the English language other than this. And I wish that I had more. But according to Spoon and Tamago, the tradition was started in 2014 by a group of adults at Daily Portal Z, which is basically like

something like a Japanese off brand Buzz Buzzfeed. It's like a link aggregator website. Okay, okay, yeah. A listicle kind of... Yeah, exactly. And these employees, quote, kind of wanted to participate in the festivities of Halloween, but were too embarrassed to go all out in witch and zombie costumes. If you take it from a spookiness perspective, at least, it's a classic Josie Mitchell conundrum, right? I love Halloween, but things are too scary. And a lot of effort. And a lot of effort. Yeah. Yeah. There we go. Thank you. So back to Spoon and Tamago, they say instead of the flashy and flamboyant costumes they'd been seeing gained popular in Japan, they decided to dress up in mundane, everyday costumes.

And this started as a small gathering, but as the internet got hold of it, it grew and grew. And now every year it's very much like a Twitter tradition, let's say an ex tradition, what have you, a Steve Martin tradition to go on and like as Halloween rolls around, see what people did for Genie Halloween this year. Oh! Very nuanced, complicated, often deliberately quite boring costumes people have done. Right, yeah, yeah. That would need a lanyard to explain them or some type of placard to

explain the whole context because it's so mundane. Yes. It's not immediately clear, for example, that a woman in a blazer presenting you with a handheld interact machine and ostentatiously turning away from you is a store employee trying not to look when you enter your pen. Yeah, ah, there we go. A rumpled man in gray sweats with sleepy eyes holding a cardboard box is a person who was woken up during an Amazon delivery. A frazzled looking man in pajamas wielding a spray bottle of disinfectant

is a person who discovered a cockroach just before going to bed but lost it while looking for something that could be a weapon. Oh my, I have been there. I have been there. Damn. That's good. Too true. Josie, why be Buzz Lightyear when you could be a factory worker who's been wearing a helmet all day and now has half flat hair? Yes. The question of our time. It's true. Why be Elsa when you could be a person who used an app to face swap with their Starbucks cup? That one's kind of scary. How do you see that? How does that?

It's sort of well-liked because it encourages creativity. Some of these costumes are very subtle and dry. And it's sort of like a Chindogu-like sentiment. So the Bindi Joe Hall episode, number 35, Josie told the story of Chindogu, which were these sort of like elaborately architected, useless things that were just done for whimsy sake, also out of Japan. Yes. Yeah. Inventions that could not be useful, essentially. Yes. And this is a similar thought

or it encourages a similar thought, like to be very creative in how like deliberately obtuse you can kind of make something, you know what I mean? It's a similar thought here. Yeah, yeah. One of the things that I really like about these Jimmy Halloween costumes

is that often the face is expected to do a lot of work. Hmm, right, yeah. For example, if you're this man who's been woken up by an Amazon delivery, is that often the face is expected to do a lot of work. Right, yeah. For example, if you're this man who's been woken up by an Amazon delivery, you need to be doing like an, ugh, face every time that you're photographed. If you're this woman with the debit machine,

you have to like very showy, like turn your head away every time a photo is taken. If you're the guy who's like trying to hunt down the cockroach, you have to be like, ugh, ugh, you know what I mean? On guard for your cockroach. Yeah. And sometimes when you're playing like a very banal character of the type who might be a store employee wearing like a face mask in a Japanese context, you almost have to do more work with your face to overcome the mask. That's so true. That's so true. So Josie, I'm going to show you I've hand pulled an uneven number of these images.

And so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna give you the link to the image. I will quickly describe the shape of the image. And then I want you to guess what the person in the Halloween costume is depicted. Okay, so what's on their white lanyard essentially? Exactly, you got it. What's on the white lanyard?

And they're all wearing the white lanyards, but they're in Japanese, so that won't help you much because you're not fictional Josie. I'm not as smart as fictional Josie, it's true. Okay, so here's the first one. So this is a youngish man. I put him in his twenties. He's wearing a black hoodie. He's holding a single playing card with its back toward the camera.

And I think he's going for intensity here. I'll give you that. He's going for intensity. He's going for intensity. Josie, name that Jimmy Halloween costume. This costume is of a person who is about to place the last ace on the four stacks of solitaire. And the game will be complete and all the cards will go into confetti mode. Okay. That's what I think. We were looking for person who's about to win at old maid.

Oh, I'll give you the point. You know what person who's about to win at a card game, but you see again how the face must do work. The face does a lot. Here's one where the face is doing a lot of work. This is number two. Okay. This is a woman in a white, kind of a formal shirt and some black slacks. She's kind of bent down at the waist. She's holding a pink bunny in one hand and a little fox stuffed animal in the other. They're both stuffed animals.

And she is making like a very big happy face, like big, big, big happy face. Josie, name that Jimmy Halloween costume. This Jimmy Halloween costume is of a person who is meeting an ugly baby. We will not be giving you that point. No, she's trying to mask her, her disgust at the ugly baby. That's honestly, I'll take it. I'll take it.

I will not give it a point, but I accept that you've said it. And I won't sue. We were looking for a camera assistant at a children's photo studio. Trying to make the babies laugh, you know, with the stuffies. I get it. Okay. I see it, yeah. So that's one point, going into image number three. So this is a woman wearing a red smock over top of, just kind of like a white shirt and black pants.

She's holding a shopping basket full of items. She has a cloth mask over her face of like the type that you might wear for illness or COVID, et cetera. And she's wearing a headband that has a big sparkly bat on it with googly eyes and purple feathers around its neck. Josie, name that Jimmy Halloween costume. This is a little trickier

because she's holding a basket. Can you see what's in the basket? I would say a variety of items purchased at either a department, convenience, or dollar store. A variety of items. She is an overworked kindergarten aid on Halloween. Josie, this is a cashier who is forced to wear something on every holiday. Oh, okay, okay.

It's Halloween, so she's got her little googly bats on, but otherwise she's just checking you through the tail. Okay, okay. Oh, I like that. In terms of like mundane Halloween costume, it's me being forced to wear a Halloween costume. That's nice. It's a mundane person being forced to wear

a Halloween costume who like is not stoked on the situation. That's a lot of layers. Yeah, that's good Halloween costume who like is not stoked on the situation. That's a lot of layers. Yeah, that's good. I do like how nuanced some of these are. So Josie, here's number four. Here's your chance to tie it back up.

Get two on, two off. We see a man in glasses and a black suit, kind of standard salary man suit, nothing fancy. He's also wearing a white plastic helmet and a high vis vest over top of his suit. Josie, name that Jimmy Halloween costume. This is hard. I'm impressed that I even got barely one of them. This is an engineer who's on tour of his plant.

I will accept, I will accept. Josie, this is a person who came to the work site from head office. Ah, okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, so some pencil pusher who's come down to tour the work site and has to put on the little hat.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And the high vis vest for safety. That's okay. We'll give you two points. So it's four points to a win here. I shall let you know.

Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. So we're looking at two people. This is a two person costume. They are a young man and a young woman. They are both wearing Mickey Mouse ears. He's got the little Fantasia Mickey ears on and she's got the Minnie Mouse ears on and they've both got little stuffed animal kind of bum bags that they're carrying. stuffed animal kind of bum bags that they're carrying. She is kind of looking down and to the left,

not really making eye contact with anyone. And he is looking at his phone. Josie, name that Jimmy Halloween costume. This is a Disney couple. So a couple who like spends a lot of money to go to Disneyland, Disney World. And he's not really into it. It's her thing and she's upset that he's just on his phone all the time.

Will accept it. Okay. Josie, this is a couple that has gotten into a fight at Disneyland and now there is an atmosphere. Oh yeah, that's good. All right. So these last two are, I'm going gonna warn you, these are hard, okay? Oh my God. So you need to get one of these

in order to win this game. Okay, I'm ready. Here's your next image, Josie. This is hard, okay. So Josie is currently looking at a man in a black button-down shirt with a neutral expression. He's wearing a pretty big, bold pair of black eyeglass frames.

You know more about glasses than I do. What do you call that shape? Like rectangular-ish, but not quite. Yeah, they're kind of like leaning into wraparound, I guess. I don't know. Sure. So that's your man. Josie, name that Jimmy Halloween costume.

Tech bro after the hour long meditation. This is of course this man in these bold frames. He is the person at the eyewear store who gets mistaken for staff. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. You've got one chance left and I've saved the hardest for last. Okay. Oh God. Josie here is your your last Jimmy Halloween image. Oh fuck, okay, I see it. Okay, so this is a, what may be a middle-aged woman.

She's in a hoodie, she's got like a little, like floral knapsack hanging off her arm, she's wearing gloves, she's got a balaclava on and some big sunnies and a big, like kind of floppy mom hat and a black umbrella. So she's waving to the camera and you can't really make out much of her face at all. She's quite obscured by all of her many things that she's wearing.

Josie, for the last time, name that Jimmy Halloween costume. This is a woman who is terrified of COVID and illness and is like suited up to the ninth, you know, to the nth degree. But she still wants to say hello, even though you don't recognize her. She's like, Hi, hello, hello, hello. But you don't know who the fuck that is. Jersey, I will accept it. The COVID thread is not it, but I will tell you that this woman in her balaclava

and her sunglasses and her bucket hat waving hello to you and carrying her little floral knapsack is probably your mom's friend, but you're not sure. Okay. And that is Jimmy Halloween. If you're feeling that rush of endorphins, it's because we're discussing some orphans. Orphan 2009 and its 2022 prequel, Orphan First Kill, that is. Become a monthly subscriber at Coffee.com slash Bittersweet Infamy and join the Bittersweet Film Club for a horror double feature finale, as everyone's favorite demon child Esther

tears her way through veteran actors, including Vera Farmiga, Julia Stiles, Peter Sarsgaard and CCH Pounder. Esther kind of taps her on the shoulder and like bludgeons her with a hammer. She got CCH pounded man. You hate to see it. You hate to see it. The CCH stands for cold cold hammer. Yeah, cold cold hammer pounder. Bitter Sweet Film Club returns in January, but next month coffee subscribers can enjoy our November Chess Stravaganza.

So get yourself in check and join us over at KO-FI.com slash Bitter Sweet. Stay sweet and we'll see you at the movies. Stay sweet and we'll forward. Thanks so much. I did another spooky thing this month in celebration of spooky month that I didn't mention earlier because I was planning on mentioning it now. Ah, I love a surprise spooky thing.

What is it? So this last weekend, Michelle and I went to surprise spooky thing. What is it? So this last weekend, Michelle and I went to Galveston. We stayed down there, which is about an hour from where we live. It's not far. And it's a city that is on an island. It's a little barrier island on the Texas coast. So it's on the Gulf and it's an old old city and we stayed there actually to celebrate our first year anniversary Because yeah, it's been a goddamn year somehow

It is you may remember that our last season finale as a matter of fact was the pre-wedding special It was number 84 a house that eats girls. Yes. Yes exactly. We're number 83 a house that eats girls It's just it's just called it's the one that's called the house that eats girls It's the one where the. We're number 83, a house that eats girls. It's just called, it's the one that's called the house that eats girls. It's the one where the girls get eaten by the house. It truly is. So to celebrate our one year, we decided to go on a ghost tour.

That's so fun. I'm so jealous. Also, what a funny thing to do for an anniversary, but like October anniversary. Yeah, October 21. What else are you gonna do? But... Exactly. Go to the oldest cemetery in the city of Galveston and get a tour from the Lady in Black.

In the episode right after Josie got married, the real number 84 got to get down on Friday. We kind of did a recap, and Josie got married at this, like, haunted hotel with hotel with this like Lizzie Borden character wandering around giving ghost tours and stuff. So this is all very in line. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what happens when you pick an October date.

I guess so. Yeah. I guess so. It's good stuff. The Scorpio weddings. Yes. Scorpio weddings indeed. So Galveston as a city is really, really old in terms of, you know, there's older places

in the world, of course, but in terms of... Rome. Yes. Egypt. But in terms of the US, it got its start in like early 1800s, early 1800s to like mid 1800s. And it was a really big city because of all the trade that was coming through, all the cotton. It was a hotspot in the slave trade.

It was bringing all this commerce to the newly developing Texas. Galveston was at a time was rivaling New Orleans as like a gateway to the Gulf Coast in terms of how many people were coming through, how many different people were coming through as well. Like it was this big hotspot of commerce and so trade and all of this stuff and a lot of money, a lot of money. So there's all these big Victorian era mansions on the island. That's where ghosts live. That's yes, the ghosts live there. They also live in the oldest graveyard in Galveston. in the oldest graveyard in Galveston, analogous to New Orleans,

all the graveyards in New Orleans are really low spots. And so when New Orleans floods, the graveyard floods and it's spooky as the... So Galveston did not do that. They raised their cemeteries. Raise your cemeteries, folks. Yeah. In fact, after the 1900 hurricane, which still on record as the most devastating natural

disaster in the history of the US in terms of how many people were killed. Yes. How many people were killed? It was upwards of 4,000. Jinkies. That's a lot of people. And part of it is that they didn't have the scientific technology to figure out that such a big storm was coming and coming directly for the city.

So there was very little preparation or essentially no evacuation done. So that was part of the mess. The other mess too is that Galveston Island is a barrier island. It is, we've talked about that in episode. It's a barrier. Yes, yeah. We talked about that all the way back in episode 101, Hachiko, stay. Yes, thank you, thank you.

So these islands are meant to be barriers and they're meant to kind of be essentially shifting sandbars. And that was not the plan of the city founders of Galveston, of course. And so after the 1900 hurricane, they raised the entire island. They lifted it up. They did the cemetery two more times in the early 1900s. And what makes these cemeteries, and I say these cemeteries, even though it's like one kind of city block of cemeteries, it's all these, it's like the old town cemetery, the Episcopalian cemetery, the Catholic cemetery, the Jewish cemetery. A labyrinth of cemeteries.

But they're all connected and you can kind of like walk from one to another very easily. So it's not, it doesn't. Very New Orleans in its vibe. Yes, very New Orleans in its vibe. Yeah. But also kind of similar era, similar, you know, all these things are very matching. But I think Galveston kind of fell off the map after the 1900 hurricane, unlike New Orleans, which has kept going.

So- Galveston is still there. We should be clear. Josie just went. Josie just went recently. I was just there. It's not the bustling port city anymore. It's not NOLA.

It's not the Zadran's commercial, is it? It's Galveston, Texas, a place Josie talks about sometimes. Yes. In fact, the downfall of Galveston is why Houston came to be in the first place, because you could go up the bayous and get further away from storm surge

and still access waterways for trade. So. Don't tell anyone that you don't learn things in this podcast. You know, yeah, doggies. You know what? We fuck around, but we're telling you good stuff here. Yeah, we know.

We know some things. A thing or two. We know about the waterways. Yeah. Yes. So having raised this cemetery three times, that process was pretty, I guess, like just word of mouth, really. They put something out in the local newspaper being like the cemetery will be raised. If you have any loved ones there, if you have any family

members, please pay this amount and their tombstones, their headstones will be raised with the land. You know, they'll be at the top. But what if you can't pay the money? If you can't pay the money, if you didn't get the notice, if you no longer live there, then they buried that tombstone. So there's no markers. And then because they had raised it almost 12 feet by the end of this, they just buried another person on top of it.

Which according to our ghost tour guide, Annette Kinslow, which she's fantastic. Highly recommend if you're ever in Galveston. Hi Annette. Yes. Hello Annette. If you're ever in Galveston, because it does exist, look up Annette Kinslow, the lady in black and she will give you a fantastic tour of the old city cemetery. But according to Annette, she said that that's why this particular set of cemeteries has

so much activity is because there's a lot of unrest. There's a lot of people who don't feel like they can move and transition to the next phase. Sort of a classic ghost conundrum if you're a person who believes in ghosts. And obviously, when you believe in ghosts, that takes all kinds of forms. The ghosts have all kinds of names. There are all kinds of reasons, cultural, spiritual, personal, that one might believe in, you know, the spiritual whatever. I think it's like a really common motif that like disrespected remains, like the disrespected physical remains of a person tends to piss ghosts off, right? If you were down there watching someone like jab your eye

with a stick and you were watching from up above, you'd be like, hey buddy, knock it off. Probably rattle some chains at him, right? Show up in a graveyard and spook some people. Yeah, of course, yeah. Why was she dressed like a dog trainer? Wouldn't you like some now? These are the questions.

So Annette is 65. She told us that her birthday was the next day after our tour. She's turning 65. She's cool. Yay! And she's lived in Galveston for a very long time and she arrived wearing all black, of course, as her namesake, the Lady in Black. You'd hope, yeah. And she had this like flower headband,

those like artificial orange flower, orange pink flowers. But then over it, she had draped a black veil. Okay. So she looked pretty creepy in the best way, right? I'm sure she knows her brand. Yes, exactly. And we were outside of the cemetery walls and all these people were driving by. Because it's a city, you know, it's not city city, but at this area, you know, people are using the street, people are driving and riding bikes and walking along. And I did see one gentleman as he drove by the cemetery, he crossed himself. And I was like, oh, here we go, doggies. That's funny.

It was good. It was good. And she had all of this really interesting historical information about Galveston. She had all of these stories about the restoration efforts that she's a part of to, like, not rebuild, but to rehabilitate headstones and to clean off headstones and just clean trash. It's a city area, trash kind of floats through and stuff like that. That makes sense as a type of historian of the area, right? That she would be concerned in its upkeep and its resilience. Yeah, yeah. And one of the really interesting facts about the way that the whole cemetery had been

risen was there were these huge mausoleums, like cement mausoleums that were like a story and a half tall. But when we were walking through the cemetery, they were maybe like they were maybe like 10 feet tall or like eight feet tall. And it's because they had been buried and we were just seeing the very top of the mausoleum. What do you think, Josie, I'm gonna fucking chuck you, just no small question here, okay? And I know you love when I give you these big lofty questions.

I'm good to go. What do you think of things like the moving of human remains And I know you love when I give you these big lofty questions. I'm good to go. What do you think of things like the moving of human remains or like, let's say it is the case that you do need to like backfill a graveyard or move the bodies out or da da da da da. Is there a respectful way to like disturb someone's remains or is that like, I mean, certainly from a ghostly perspective, that's its whole own issue, but like even from like a respect perspective, do you think there's a good way to go about this? Probably do it for free, huh? Probably don't charge the grieving families.

There's that. But I get that like also this labor needs to be paid somehow, I get that too. Yeah. There's a body moving fee sometimes, man, that is true. Yeah and funerals like they're very expensive and that's their whole purpose, right, is to move bodies. I think there is a way to do it respectfully. I think it's kind of like an intention and like, just like holding space and maybe recognizing too, like, if the person was buried in a Catholic cemetery, maybe you bring a Catholic priest by. Right, that's a good point too. The death rates are different from a Muslim,

from a Catholic, from a da-da-da-da-da. Yeah, and just kind of paying attention to what this person might have wanted, right? And acknowledging that, right? You're not gonna always get it right, but at least attempting. But imagine you had a thousand bodies to move. That's a lot of bodies.

And you don't know what religion Henrietta Smith from 1798 was. Right, yeah. And you don't know what she would have wanted. You actually might not even know her name. It might just say Smith, right? Yeah. It's a tough question, right? It is tough.

The first time I thought about this was when I was on a trip with my family and we were having a layover at the Sheraton at the Toronto airport. And it was right at the time when they were rebuilding the Toronto airport. And I think they were specifically like rebuilding it over a graveyard. And you could kind of see in my head, I don't know if this is true,

but in my head you could kind of see the construction of it from outside this hotel window. It was a really nice hotel room, really nice view of this graveyard being disturbed maybe. But I remember even as a kid being like, I don't think that's right, but I don't know what I would do in a similar situation. Yeah, yeah.

And that's, you know, that is a conundrum that even it was talked about in the Galveston context is like when the cemetery was created, it was way outside of the city limits. But cities change. Yeah, but cities grow and they expand. And airports are a really good example too, because that's typically not in the center of a city. It's typically kind of on the edge of a city, right? Where a cemetery might be. Yeah. I mean, I think there is something to be said

about like folks who have been buried and like consecrated? Because I think there's a whole nother level when like unmarked graves are discovered. Yeah, that's true. That's very true. Like if you believe in a soul, if you believe in ghosts, like those spirits are still very much around. Yeah. Like right to be mad. very correct to be mad.

And it also like sort of this talk of like the bones floating up in New Orleans and stuff reminds me that like often when that happens, it happens in cemeteries where like it's predominantly the bodies of like black folks who are buried and there was less care taken to like the proper preparation and laying to rest of these remains because they were like marginalized when they were buried right even in death. Yeah, yeah or their families were marginalized and so they couldn't afford the upkeep right. You don't get the fancy angel weighing mausoleum in the part of town that won't sink right because

that's not what you can afford. Right. Whose remains are getting disturbed right that's like another question that often comes up, like which graveyards are we allowed to disturb in which graveyards? You know, no one's going to suggest going to disturb Lyndon B. Johnson's grave, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. The most important white man I could think of, Lyndon B. Johnson. It's whatever comes out. You know how it is, Josie. You surprise yourself with what comes out sometimes. That's very true. That's very true.

Annette had some great stories to share. They were historical in nature, like, you know, lifting the cemetery and old Galveston, but she also had some, like, downright spooky-dooky shit. Okay. So there was a gravestone that had all these different names on it, and they all, like, above the name above it was Alberti. There was a gravestone that had all these different names on it. The name above it was Alberti.

At this point, Twilight had fallen, so she got out of her little black purse this huge mag light flashlight. It would turn on, and then she would punch the button again and it would strobe, and then she would punch the button again and then turn off. Yeah. the button again and it would strobe and then she would punch the button again and then turn off. Yeah, I think I have one of those guys down here in my bedside thing and it's not a flashlight, it's there to go and intrude her. It's just the thickest, heaviest appliance, handheld appliance that I own. So I keep it there in case I need to bash somebody. Beautiful. Yes, yes. And so she has this out and the light falls onto this headstone.

This is Alberti on it. And we see all these names and she's showing us, okay, so there's Louis, born 1852, died 1915. And below him, it says his wife, Elsie, born 1858, died 1898. And then there's even more names and they're all just first names. So we know that they're a family. They all have the same last name, Elbertis. Yeah, Elbertis. So she tells this story of how Louis was a local booksharer

and he married this woman, Elsie. They were of Italian descent and they had moved to Galveston and started this business and started their family. The Bookshop shop was right next door to the house. They lived right next to it. And Elzie had a few kids, which was pretty common at the time. Yeah, had stonefall of them. Yeah. And it was her sixth kid, who was a daughter daughter who died within the first year of life. She did not survive.

And Elzie was so overcome with grief and what we now probably can recognize as the grief of losing a child, but also this continued postpartum depression. She's just punching out kids and- It's become a common enough trope, I think, in retrospect to look back on a woman who like kind of lost it after having nine kids and having devoted her entire life to nothing but like having and raising children. Yeah. It's kind of like, yeah, we know now that like that does things to your hormones and your psychology that we didn't know then that like kind of

need treatment, right? It's really, really distressing. Yes. Yeah. And she had no treatment and she was probably extremely isolated. She gathers her kids one evening and it's pretty common at this era to serve kids just a little glass of wine before bed on a cold night. So the idea is that like, and they were of Italian descent, you know. Oh, I forgot they were Italian. Dude, all of my Italian and Spanish, all of my European relatives period, were pushing wine on me from the time I was six years old, period. Would have had no issue with like, probably me getting a little pissed, honestly, at like nine or

10 years old on red wine. Yeah. I didn't really because I wasn't interested in alcohol as a kid at all. I thought it tasted like shit. The offer was very much always on the table for me to have a glass of wine well before puberty. Anytime you wanted it was there for you to have. You didn't even drink your after dinner wine.

You're not going to get your dessert wine. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, apparently this was common in like colder months before there was central heating. You give the kids a little wine and it warms them up and they conk out. Yeah. So that's the whole plan that Elsie has, except she has laced her kids wine with arsenic. That's not a fun way to go. with our snake. That's not a fun way to go. No, in fact, one of the kids screamed. I guess it was like a painful reaction.

And her husband who was at the bookshop next door ran into the house and saw that his kids had passed out on the kitchen floor. And one of his daughters, he saw that she was still conscious. So he rushes her to the hospital where they give her EpiCac and she barfs up arsenic. Oh, give me the arsenic before you give me the EpiCac. True enough. So she does survive, but. Yay. Okay. That's good.

The other children, the other four children do not. All right, P. sad to hear that. It is very sad. And Elzy is taken away to a 1894, a sane asylum in San Antonio, which we can imagine is not a good place to be. No, that's also where ghosts live. Yes, exactly. Yes, a lot of tortured souls. And she only spends four years there because they determined that it was a, you know, they wouldn't have phrased it this way, but an

issue of mental health that caused her. Right. But it was probably a lack of resources as well because they just sent her right back to where she was with her kids, same house, same house, all of it, right? How the fuck did we survive as a species this long? We've been doing everything possible to kill and degrade one another for the entire time. Yeah.

Elsie is so... She hasn't really had the therapy she needs. There's no medications. There's no... There's usually just no help. And so she's so overcome with guilt, and loss and grief that she has a glass of wine laced with arsenic herself. See, and she passes away in 1898. And so her whole family, they're buried together, which I think is quite sweet that they would still keep them all

together, even though this mental quite sweet that they would still keep them all together, even though this mental illness was essentially kind of tearing them apart. But this is really tragic. Sweet if you're not one of the kids. If I'm one of those kids, like, I get that she was sad and that's sad and I'm sad she's sad, but like, also, can I get buried next to dad? Yeah, yeah, true enough. On the other side. That's very true, yeah, yeah.

But Annette was so wonderful. She wanted us to take photos a lot. So I have all these photos and she showed us on her phone how sometimes spirits can appear as these little orbs of light or these squiggles of light. Very cool. The skeptic response, oh imperfections in the photography or imperfections in the technology.

Annette, if you're listening, you sound glam and I'm not opposed to your POV here. I'm just representing that point of view that like not everybody believes in ghosts and there are people who would respond that, oh, that's not ghosts. That's something else. That's true. Yeah. It is interesting that like this idea of spirit photography is so tied to a very modern technology too, especially in the context of your phone.

Annette was like, okay, hold your phone up against the glass of the mausoleum. Okay, take a few photos. Okay, get like four or five. Yeah. We had to invent everything else. Why wouldn't we have to invent a ghost detector? Just because we designed it to do something else doesn't mean it couldn't also detect ghosts. That's true. Yeah, and Annette, in that vein too, Annette was really cool because she was

operating a ghost tour and she was the woman in black and the veil. But she's also, she was really interested in Galveston history. She was really interested in the mid 1800s up into the 1900s, this kind of era of pre-Civil War and antebellum and trying to understand what the US was like at that time. She was very clear about, they were very sentimental. She described how a lot of effort went into the headstones and a lot of symbolism went into the headstones. a lot of symbolism went into the headstones. And the language that was used was very particular in a way that we aren't really now. And so that was kind of an interesting connection. But she was-

Trends in graves. Trends in graves. Yeah, exactly. That's interesting. That's interesting. You don't think about it, but then you're like, of course there would. This is a legitimate, I'm not making up a grave here. This is a legitimate grave that I've seen. When I go to the graveyard and I see that somebody has a Naruto grave that his family clearly made him because he really fucking loved Naruto, that wouldn't have happened back in the 1800s. Something wildly different and influenced by the times of that era would have taken

place, right? And sometimes there'd be oddball outliers, but sometimes there'd be other things like you say like a commons thread of sentimentality or whatever, or a common religious thread, or, oh, here's more flared shapes came in around this time, or art deco shapes or something, you know? Yeah. She pointed out a zinc gravestone, which was really, because it's a metal and it looked like it was like plastic really until you like touched interesting and then you realize it was metal. Yeah. But she also was trying to like, use the graveyard as the site to understand this historical context.

But also because she was kind of interested in this era of Galveston history where it was a really flourishing city. She was noting to how like this era was filled with death. We didn't have the medicine we have. Childbirth was a very dangerous feat. Yeah, sanitation. All of that. And then the Civil War. Like we're talking about the US South. And then in 1900, this is a place that would get kind of wiped off the map. A massive storm too. Totally, yeah. A lot of really intense tragic death during that too. It was so interesting to go on this tour when I did because I had already started researching and I'd chosen the topic for-

The topic presupposed the tour? Yes. Interesting. I had taken this, I thought that probably you and Mitchell went out and did this and were like, oh, this would be a good episode. Interesting. Yeah.

So it's kind of this like Kismet, destiny vibe situation because what I'm interested in and what I am researching and bringing to the table. This is wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. It's not ghouls and ghosts in the Galveston graveyard. It's not just ghouls and ghosts in the Galveston graveyard, baby. Not just any ghoul or ghost.

Who is it? I want to talk about the history of American spiritualism and how it has influenced an American idea of grief and loss but also how it's been so insanely tied to American history. Great. I can't wait. I hesitate almost to even ask, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Oh, my friend. yes sir, yes sir! Bitter, sweet, and foamy Hall of Famer Sir Arthur Conan Doyle making his vaunted return to the podcast. OK, that's it.

Those were my questions. OK. OK, OK, OK. Sherlock's dad, just to be clear. Sherlock's dad. Is Sir Arthur Conan Doyle Sherlock's dad of giving birth to Sherlock fame in this episode? And an ardent proponent of spiritualism and a Hall

of Famer on this show, because literally any time anything around this era happens with the whiff of spirits, he has to stick his grubbier and he loves it. That's true, it's really true. But okay, so really, really cool. And it was just kind of crazy because like Annette and this tour, the era that it was investigating,

it was all in there and Mitchell just kind of booked it on a whim, like. I was gonna ask what his reaction was to it, was all in there. And Mikhschel just kind of booked it on a whim. Like- I was gonna ask what his reaction was to it, but he seems down. He loves this shit. It's like his favorite. Yeah. Yeah.

I can't wait. Doesn't seem necessarily like, I don't know if I would say it's not up your alley, but I do know you as someone who's sensitive to a fright. And so maybe this would be too scary for you, I might think. Were you scared? Or did you know that Annette was taking care of you? Annette had drawn the sigils and shit, I got you.

Yeah, yeah, Annette was taking care, but she was also, because it was like historical, she was also talking. It kind of had this funny turn where, because it was just Mitchell and me on the tour, that it was only us and Annette. What? Is that the way that that's supposed to be booked,

or did it just happen to be that you were the two who booked a ticket? I think it just kind of happens that way. It happened that way. I'm obsessed. That's so intimate. So you literally got to pick Annette's brain if you, you got to hold that mag flashlight yourself if you want it. Yeah, exactly. And she kept kind of like turning towards me and being like, childbirth was very painful. You should never have a child outside of a hospital. Have a child at a hospital. I was like, okay. Yeah. She was like, I'm going to put the fear of God into this granola looking white bitch. I know you think that you can handle

a natural birth because some woman on TikTok told you that it was no problem, but I need you to know. Don't do that. No, and it was kind of like, she was kind of like talking to me at all these certain points too of like, when she was telling the story of Elza Alberti, she was like, she was saying like, have your women around you, have your friends around you, have your mom, have your aunties, have your, you know, and I was like, okay. Like Mitchell's just like over there like, okay. Mitchell's the dumb fuck Peter Sarsgaard husband who gets killed in the third act. Don't worry about him.

Yeah, yeah, a la orphan 2009. There's Sweet Filth class. Join us, coffee.com, kohivenfi.com slash better sweet and free. Yeah doggie. Become a monthly subscriber. We're gonna play chess. American spiritualism.

Okay, let's go baby. It typically gets dated back to the Fox sisters. Are you familiar with Kate and Margaret Fox? No, but they sound fun. They come around in about 1848. Okay, good year. And there's a special note to make here because that's like the modern idea of spiritualism. But if you are speaking to practicing spiritualists, not all of them, of course, because there is no monolith. But a lot of people would say, well, indigenous communities were the first spiritualists of North America.

If we interpret spiritualism as the idea of interacting with spirits at its very base level, every culture going far back into antiquity has some idea of this to some degree, I think. Exactly. And I think sometimes making that distinction is just saying, oh, you mean pre-Christianity because what spiritualism is trying to do is push back against organized and patriarchal Christianity. Right. It's sort of like a non-Christian option at a time when Christianity was the overwhelming source at least in sort of the Western world.

Yeah, exactly. So I say that because it is important to understand that there are belief systems in America and North America that far out date 1848. You know, for investigating American spiritualism, we can comfortably start with more detail in 1848 with the Fox sisters. Sure. So Kate is 12 years old. Margaret is 15 years old. They live in Hydesville, New York, which is upstate New York. And they live in a home that their neighborhood

kind of recognizes as a bit spooky. Like that's a, there's a vibe. The haunted house. There's a vibe in that house, yes. Victorian maybe, who knows. Exactly. And they are in their bedroom when, and this happens multiple times, we'll pinpoint a single night where they've gone down to sleep and their mother downstairs hears a tapping.

Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. Also maybe wrapping, would might be the word too. The mom goes upstairs, checks on her daughters. They're both dead asleep. Not dead, but they're asleep. Yeah, this is important. In this story, let's be clear with Shannon Doherty. Let's be very clear. Yes, yes, let's be clear.

The mother is like, okay, well, I wonder what that is. She goes back downstairs. The rapping continues. Finally, the daughters explain to their mother the next day that, oh, no, that's Mr. Switchfoot. That's the man who was once murdered in our home. Classic Mr. Switchfoot.

We can talk to him. They hear these raps and they can communicate with Mr. Switchfoot. For example, you ask a yes or no question. Rap twice for yes answer. Rap once for no. So it's that kind of thing. Their parents get a little freaked out. Word spreads through town. They already live in like the spooky house and now their daughters are being spooky girls. So what else are we talking about in Heightsville, New York? Right?

What else is going on? A divorced woman? Like, come on, what are we doing here? Their parents send them to live with their older sister who lives in Rochester, New York, with the idea that like, okay, let's just get him out of town. Let's just get him into a new place. Little did they know that Leia, their older sister, is like over there in Rochester being like, all right, my girly girls, let's turn this into a biz match. Get this together. An entrepreneur, a girl boss.

A girl boss, yes. And so she brings her two sisters to New York City and starts like getting them on stage. This becomes a show. It takes storm. They finally end up on the corner of Broadway and Maiden Lane where they have booked a suite at Barnum's Hotel, which you might recognize that name.

They made it to Broadway because they booked a hotel room. Go on. Well, it's the parlor of the hotel. They showcase their exports. And as for the name, is that Barnum of and Bailey? Yes, it is PT. Of there's a sucker born every minute fame. Yes.

PT is his cousin, is Barnum's cousin. So there's a little bit of that. Oh, interesting. OK, so this isn't PT Barnum himself. This is Barnum's cousin. Correct. So yeah, there's a kind of distant connection there. All these preeminent New Yorkers are going and they're asking about stocks and railroad

bonds and- People are so greedy and boring. 1850s. I know. It's true. But it's also catching the attention of contemporaries, luminaries, Elizabeth Cady Stanton. She's pivotal in the suffragette movement. Frederick Douglass, who's pivotal in the abolitionist movement.

Sojourner Truth also tied abolition. So all of these names are kind of like attending these performances, attending these seances sometimes they're called. Even Sojourner Truth liked a good show. It's like stars, they're just like us in a way, you know? Yeah, it's really great, you know? And one thing I think to note, because you're right, there's plenty of skeptics, even in 1850s.

Of course. But to see women on stage, to see women on stage speaking and sharing information was extremely unique. That was not something that was really done at the time. They didn't have Shakuntala doing her math lady show. No, Shakuntala had not hit the stage as yet. Wow. I didn't even think about that, but that's an interesting point that like to have women up there being like, I'm an expert in something.

That is kind of transgressive. Yeah, doing public speaking. Not even women, but like teen girls. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And as we know from living life and doing a podcast, there's readin' for me, teenage girls, they have a magnetism, the beauty, the youth, whatever it is, right?

The madness even though too. So they're very compelling just on that basis alone. But then they're talking about the afterlife and they're doing a very convincing demonstration for a lot of folks of what this looks like. And it's always Mr. Switchfoot who's with them. He follows them. He's not like with the house. It's pretty much a three-hander.

It's gaining so much popularity. And even on this note of like women on stage doing public speaking, 1948 is also the year of the Seneca Falls Convention, which is a huge turning point in the suffragette movement and women's rights movement. And this, you know, other women are on stage at the Seneca Falls Convention, but they're seeing what might be kind of seen today as like the pop culture element of the Fox sisters and their sances. This is they're getting like Clint Eastwood to talk at the RNC or whatever. Yeah. I mean, the Fox sisters don't go to the Seneca Falls convention, but it's like

in the area, their name is brought up, right? They are in the zeitgeist and the zeitgeist is about like women are humans as well, not second class citizens. But also spooky ghost shit extremely in vogue at this time too. Yeah, so it's kind of like it's doing all this double work, I'd say. The Quakers are really into the Fox sisters. Love the Quakers. Yeah, let's go to a meeting house. Great Oats.

Yeah. And it's this convergence of like individualism, radical individualism, women's rights, and abolitionist movement that's kind of this steamroll effect of culture that's happening. And they're all getting sparked by the Fox sisters. And so they're extremely popular. They're all over the map. It's so sad to think what a big star you can be and still kind of fade to the point where like I haven't heard of the Fox sisters. You know what I mean? Prior to this, what a shame. Yeah. I mean, it got so popular that I mean, the Fox sisters. But then, of course, behind them came all these other mediums and shows and seances.

If one person found money in there, then we've got the Goose sisters and the Coyote brothers and then the whole crew, right? Yeah. That there were mediums and seances and all of these kind of elements that become spiritualism at the White House. Mary Todd Lincoln, who lost both of her sons, is very well known for having mediums come and try and make contact with her sons. And spirit photography to get images at all of this. And she's not the only FLOTUS to invite mediums.

It's been kind of a very continual thing through time. Not Melania, she didn't really care, but the rest of them all. Melania was a little checked out, let's be real. Slovenian actually, not Czech. Nice. Hey, it's a thinker, but it lands when it lands. That was very nice, very nice. So it's extremely popular and it's getting tied,

like this idea of the afterlife seances it's coming through and being called spiritualism like capital S spiritualism and it's Very tied to women this idea of the Fox sisters being kind of the poster girls is not You know a coincidence the idea is that? the poster girls is not a coincidence. The idea is that spiritualism is decentralized. It's not an organized religion because if you were to organize it or routine-ize it, then the patriarchy would kind of seep in. The idea is that spiritualism is individual and that it is following your intuition. And in the culture at that time

and in the culture now I'd say too, those are deemed as feminine. Women's intuition. Women's intuition, yeah. They're deemed as like this knowledge that women have access to and that might not be as important as a masculine knowledge, right?

Men hunt. Women talk to the dead, yeah. The two genders, truly. as a masculine knowledge, right? Men hunt. Women talk to the dead. Yeah. The two genders, truly. Yes. So the idea really is this, like, women who are disenfranchised can gain more agency through spiritualism.

It's also tied to the abolitionist movement because there's a sense of like the individual is important, not a hierarchy. These are ideas that are floating around at the time, right? It's 1850s in the U.S. We're only a decade away from the Civil War. As we inch closer to the Civil War, of course, things get really intense and heated and there starts to be a separation between the spiritualism and the way that it's tied to the women's movement and the abolitionist movement. So the best way that I see it is there's this narrative of scarcity. So the idea that like, okay, well, wait, wait, wait, we need to concentrate on basic human rights for all people, meaning black Americans. It's Black Lives Matter versus All Lives Matter.

Maybe not all lives matter, but it's like Black Lives Matter versus women's lib. In this sort of idea around scarcity, the idea is that like one of you can have rights, but not both, and you can't fight alongside one another cooperatively. Not right now. We need to focus our efforts. Which is sort of like this kind of classic, like disingenuous, moderate position that you still see. Yeah, where it's like, well, what if you just work together? Wouldn't you be stronger? No, because blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's always different when you get like groups of people with different interests.

Cause I'm assuming when we say suffragette movement, I'm assuming this is white women. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Because white women got the vote at a different time than indigenous women and black women and so on. Right. Yes. In the U S yeah. That must be so frustrating for the black women who are pulled between these overlapping identities. Intersecting identities. How annoying, how tedious. Yeah, exactly.

So it's a little like, okay, that's getting a little murky, right? The way that they were all kind of working together so well and so in such an interesting way, and then... Until they weren't. kind of working together so well, and so in such an interesting way, and then. Until they weren't. And for a variety of reasons, I'm sure, to do with the era, to do with the simmering of both the abolition movement and the suffrage movement, to do with like, I'm sure the discouragement

of outside forces pitting them against each other. Yeah, and the failure of the Civil War to resolve anything. Get out of town. You don't say. Right. So the Civil War that does happen, and it's this colossal failure, it also causes the death of 62,000 people. So this is a lot, you know, like we have to always adjust for inflation. Like this is an incredible amount of people over that time, right? Oh, especially nowadays. You've been to the store. Yeah. And this was something that Annette pointed out too. in Alabama, the state of Alabama, at the end of the Civil War, there

were 40,000 widows. Jesus. Single man's economy. Yes, that's true. Boys, boys, boys. Yeah. If, you know, you're still alive. If you made, if you're not one of the 62K. Yeah. So this, you know, not only is there all this like political and cultural tension,

there's also just this overwhelming amount of grief and loss. Yeah, of a generation. Of an entire generation, yeah. And Annette pointed this out too, that it's like, it's generational trauma that the South still holds on to. Oh Christ is it ever. No disrespect to anyone. Oh sometimes. Yeah, yeah. Take a little, take a little on the side. Sure. Yeah. Because it is insane. It's always interesting and depressing when we talk history, recent and distant, how much of it still rings true. And sometimes it rings true

in a we inevitably repeat ourselves kind of way, but other times it rings true in a we're literally still cleaning up that exact mess kind of way. Yes, exactly. That's a bummer because it's just like we've had how long and we're still making it messier. Okay, so in this era, like antebellum, US, only about

25% of the population are part of Christian congregations. So that means like church going folk. I know it is kind of a surprising number. We think of that as the Bible belt now, right? Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's a time and era thing, like traveling is harder at this time. You know, you might be part of a church, but you don't really go because it's so far away,

or the preacher only comes every month. Or the preacher sucks, let's be real. Yeah, there's that too. Bed is comfortable and preacher who sucks, not comfortable. Right, yeah. So there's that too. Bed is comfortable and preacher who sucks, not comfortable. Right, yeah. So there's this incredible amount of people who are dealing with grief and loss and anger and tragedy

and spiritualism is there with not only the idea of an afterlife, which is very welcome, but a direct line to the specific person that you miss. Exactly. And there's none of the Christianity issues of like fire and brimstone. If they haven't been baptized, they're going to hell. You should feel bad.

Maybe you killed someone during the war. Yeah, exactly. So all of that is not there. Don't have to worry about that with spiritualism. And add to it that this was all offered with no commitment. You know, you didn't have to go to a church. You didn't have to pay. You didn't have to, you know, tithe your salary. And therefore, there was no financial obligation. So it was very like the bar is low. If you want to join, join. But if you don't, don't.

Like, it's fine. Like, you believe what you want to believe because it's all individual. It's all you. And spiritualism is not going to try and build churches and spend the money on that. If you say you saw Mr. Switchfoot, that's good enough for us. Exactly. Yes. It's in this era where people need guidance and they need some type of solace. So we're in this era, it's like the late 1800s, And even men are getting on board because it's just so popular.

And this is where we see Pierre Curie, the noble laureate and the French physicist husband of Marie Curie. Mm-hmm, RIP. So he's getting on board with some of the spiritualism stuff. Dr. Russell Wallace, who's the co-discoverer of the theory of evolution with Charles Darwin. Dr. Russell Wallace, who's the co-discoverer of the theory of evolution with Charles Darwin. Interesting. We love when a science mind gets interested, huh?

Yeah, because that's another, like, in trying to fight the organized religion, and fight is a strong word, but trying to push against the organized religion, spiritualism is also saying like, well, we're just as much a science as we are a religion. So it's kind of like. That doesn't sound right. No, not quite, not quite. We do have super fans, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle on spiritualism side.

Yet to come. Yes, yes. Sherlock's dad is definitely a big old fan. The biggest. So I think this idea of science and spiritualism, it's tricky, right, because it's not an organized situation and science is like about a lot of organization. But I think something that spiritualism attempts to do to align itself with scientific method is that there are all these different types of communications with the dead that

are encapsulated in spiritualism. So there is physical medianship, which is very common at this time. It's the wrapping, like wrapping the Mr. Switchfoot wrapping situation. Not notorious B.I.G. wrapping, be clear, not Christmas wrapping knocking on the door. Yeah, there's a whole list and I'll kind of just go through a few of these, the ones that make sense. Spirit photography, which we talked about earlier, you're

seeing spirits in the use of this technology, the Ouija board, the use of physical tools even then for communication. Oh yeah, baby. Levitation. Ouija. For communication, oh yeah baby. Levitation. Woja. Woja, yeah, yeah.

Ouija. Levitation, you say. Floating shit. Where is the feather stiff as a board? Yep. Uh-huh. Terealization, which is the use of ectoplasm to create a partial or full form of a spirit personality.

There is no fucking way one of these people who does not even know that you should wash your hands could pull that off. I'm sorry. There's no fucking way. Maybe now. Now that we have these like Adderall kids who play Minecraft, I bet they could turn that around probably really quick. These are talented kids. Back then? No. No. They're just idiots. Automatic or what's called direct writing or painting. So when someone is moved to do writing of the spirit or painting that the spirit is leading. Brother 12 was a fan of automatic writing. That was how he got his stuff across.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. See? see? Yeah, that's a round. And this one too, have you ever heard of table tipping? No, but I can imagine, but like tell me. So it's using a table, typically like a small, smaller table. An easy one to tip. An easy one to tip, I guess, yeah. Just use a card table with one bad leg, ideally. And it's like following the movements of the table,

understanding that that's the spirit speaking through. And it's similar to the Mr. Switchfoot wrapping. It's like the table will move to the right if it's a yes, the table will move to the left if it's a no. Why don't we pick something that's a little harder to fake? I mean, I know why. I mean, there's also writing on skin. If you have skin that welts,

all you need to do is do that, do the writing with your thumb before, either do it secretively or do it before the meeting because it'll show up eventually. That's true. Nancy Drew is on the case. I don't know where I turned very halfway through. I took my like official opposition role here,

like very seriously all of a sudden. It's good to, you know, be critical. I don't particularly believe in the supernatural, but nor am I offended by someone who says that they do. I think that their POV is just as valid as mine, and if I saw a really convincing ghost, I could probably get swayed the other way. You know what I mean. I feel similarly, I suppose.

Even after the trip to the graveyard. Mmm, it could be a little table tips. It just has to be like a really glamorous and interesting woman in a headpiece and a black dress, right? Yeah. As long as it's a net, I'm fine. So those are the physical mediumship, which is kind of the mark of this era. This is what's kind of popular, right?

There's also mental mediumship. So these are like clairvoyance. So psychically seeing, right, is clairvoyance. But then there's all these other elements of the clairaudience, which is hearing, psychically hearing, clergustance, clear tasting. Actually, let's go back. What the fuck is clergustance? I noticed that clear tasting. What does that mean? I think what it means is like you Let's say you're medium. It's really clear. Someone is like trying to communicate to you like that. I was poisoned While eating pineapple. I taste the pineapple with a hint of almond back note. You know what I mean? Exactly

I see I've convinced myself of clear-gustance. Never mind. Objection withdrawn. And what was the last one? Clear-sentience. Clear-sensing. Psychologically sensing or feeling. Which is kind of all of it, right? That's vague, but okay.

That happens. The distinction is really just like one conveys itself in like a physical form and the other is more like of a psychic mental form. If you are the skeptic, the nonbeliever, one of them is entirely a confidence trick that you kind of need to take the other person on vibe. And one of them is potentially and again, if you take these to be confidence tricks, one of them is potentially a confidence trick where there is some sort of more physical element where they've basically learned a physical magic trick to convince you as opposed to just being like, no, trust me. I taste

pennies. Right. Yeah. So on the cynicism bit, let's go back to the Fox sisters because we've left them in the foxhole and their height of fame. They're very popular. They've made it through the Civil War, da-da-da. But they were also 12 and 15 when they became very popular and in the spotlight, which we all know the fate of child stars. They don't have great adulthood. Stereotypically, they don't come out of it super well. So that's where we find Kate and Margaret Fox in the late 1880s. They are, even though they've kind of become the founders of the spiritualist movement in a way, they have hit rock bottom. Oh, shit.

They have dire drinking issues. They... They've smoked all their Fabergé eggs. Yes, exactly. They have financial issues. Margaret is at a point where she's like, maybe all of this is just diabolical. And I was like, it's all demonic and I need to renounce everything. So there's a reporter who approaches Kate and Margaret and says that he will offer them $1,500, which 1880s is a lot of money. Sure, sure. If they will expose how Mr. Switchfoot expresses himself, if they've like essentially, if they tell him what the trick is right and if he

has first dibs on the story he'll give them this money. That's like you're teaching man to fish you're giving away your fishing rod for a big fish there you know what I mean? It is October 21st 1888 Margaret is in a 4,000 seat New York Academy of Music Opera House, and she is there to demonstrate to the crowd how she could produce the sound of the rapping. And this is what she says, this is her confession. She explains it and demonstrates it on stage, but this is the confession as printed in New York World, her signed confession. My sister Katie was the first to observe that by swishing her fingers, she could produce

certain noises with her knuckles and joints. She was doing that thing that 12 year old boys do where they clack their knuckles. Oh, I fucking hate that. Yeah. That's the funniest possible solution. And this same effect could be made with the toes. Finding that we could make wraps with our feet first with one foot and then with both. We practiced until we could do this easily when the room was dark. Like most perplexing things when made clear is

astonishing how easy it is done. So on stage, Margaret is there cracking her toes. You've been paying big bucks to see me clack my toes on stage. That's tough. It is tough. And you would think that like, okay, well, there went spiritualism, sayonara, bye. It was not the death blow because people still believed. People needed to believe, people wanted to believe, people deeply believed. And even the Fox sisters themselves, Margaret renounced her confession in writing. She unclacked her toes. She unclacked her toes saying she needed that

goddamn money, that $1,500 was just staring her in the face if she could clack a toe. So she clacked a toe. Would she not? Is this not a woman who was like giving out Dow predictions and shit though? Like, yeah, true. Shouldn't she not need to take this reporter's money? I mean, I think that's kind of the question, like, is it a curse of child stardom or is it like a falsehood, right? It's yeah, I mean, I have sympathy. I think that like people broadly will believe what they want to, I do think. Well, the sad thing is the $1,500 didn't make a difference because in 1892, just four short years later, Kate died. She passed away in New York City and then the year after that Margaret followed.

How did they die? Alcoholism. Damn. They were young too. Geez. What a shame. That's an awful... Josie, what the hell? Sorry. Put a trigger warning about that. The Fox sisters. What the fuck were you doing in this fucking graveyard? What is this? Yeah, I still that question. So kind of stands with me. Like, is it just like that's the fate of child stardom? Is it can be a lethal blow?

Jew Barrymore is doing OK. She went through it, though. She did go through it. She did go through it. She went through it. Dakota Fanning seems like she's doing OK. Orphan. Orphan's doing okay. She went through it though. She did go through it. She did go through it. She went through it. Dakota Fanning seems like she's doing okay. Orphan, Orphan's doing great. She's great. Yeah. She's really good.

Orphan's kicking ass. She's getting the flipper back in for round three. All right. We've made it out of the 1800s. Thank God. We are in the 1900s. Closer to electricity every day. Fuck yes.

Ha ha ha ha ha. Spiritualism changes, of course, because culture changes and what we need changes and all that. And especially the way that it is tied to the feminist movement. Let me read this. So this is from Reverend Todd J. Leonard, who's a medium and spiritualist.

And in his book, Talking to the Other Side, he says of this specific time period, initially regular mediumship like clairvoyance and clairaudience was enough. Clairegustance. And Clairegustance, yes. That used to be enough, but as adherents began demanding more and more proof, the pressure to produce phenomena for financial gain became a worrisome trend for spiritualism as a religion. To throw it back to another story that you did, number 49, the Cottingly Fairies, shades of the same thing here, right? It became expedient to have documentation of these phenomena and whether or not that was real documentation was not the point.

Yes, yes, exactly, exactly. And according to scholars of spiritualism, this was a period where the spiritualism as a practice is getting a little bit darker because it wasn't about making contact, but it was about proving contact. Harnessing, capturing. Yes. So there's this push beyond making contact and into more dangerous things like going into trances and crossing the line without as much safety or regard.

We'll say that. Classic horror movie trope, classic humanity trope. But fuck. Yeah, that's true. And in that same way, spiritualism is moving away from being closely tied to women and women's wisdom and intuition, which was kind of a powerful thing in the 1800s. It's moving away from that and getting into more of like, gimme the hard science, baby. But part of that is that it's not about believing women, it's about having women prove something to you.

Now we're demanding labor from women. Yes. Yeah. It's more like seeing them do their thing rather than believing them, which is also another way of de-emphasizing and making women more passive too. It's like, I want this thing from you, give it to me now. This is also the era for looking at the roaring 20s. It's shorter haircuts, higher hemlines, flappers, dancing. Women getting more cultural rights,

maybe not more full- on political rights, we'll say, but especially spiritualism is fighting less on the front of political activism and more on the front of let's get rid of restrictive gender norms, which I realized there is overlap, but I think there's enough distinction too that we can kind of see how like the Seneca Falls convention is different from like, I want to chop all my hair off. This is also the time when our buddy Harry Houdini enters the scene. Oh boy, I forgot about him. I forgot. He's Mythbusters, right? Yes, yes. Born in 1874 in Budapest. His real name is Eric Weitz. W-E-I-S-Z. Weiss.

And he is a big old mama's boy. I don't know if you knew this about Harry Houdini. Tell me everything about Harry Houdini, Josie. So his mother, Cecilia, he was her fourth child, and he had a very deep and profound bond with his mother. So he moves to the US to pursue his career, right? But all of this whole time, he is writing to his mother, he's thinking of his mother to the point where it's like, is this guy going to even get married? Because he just

loves his mom maybe a little too much. No one could be better than Cecilia. Exactly. He is such a fan of his mom that he is one of the very vocal advocates and proponents of Mother's Day, which we know is a faddled sham. Yeah, wow. Yes. Wow, wow, wow. This is one of our early, early episodes.

It'll be like episode 14 or 15. It's the Run Bambi Run episode. So Harry Houdini has made a name for himself in the States as a performer of magical feats, we'll say. He can like be in a straight jacket in a barrel and go down a waterfall and come up alive. Yeah, yeah. The Goat of Magicians, probably. If you're talking like who's the most like biggest most famous, most like, I guess, acclaimed magician ever. Obviously the first person I think of is Criss Angel Mindfreak, but then I think of Houdini. Yeah, exactly. That's the procession. Yeah, of course. So Houdini is at a press conference. He's big enough that he's at a press conference in 1913

in Copenhagen when he gets word that his mother has suffered a stroke. No, he loves her. So much. He cancels everything. His whole performing tour out the door. He gets on his two week transatlantic ship so that he can go back to see his mother before she passes,

but he does not make it. She's gone. No, Eric, no. I know. It's pretty sad. It's after the passing of his mom that Houdini starts to not just be kind of skeptical and slightly critical of spiritualism, he becomes actively wanting to take them down to spoof. Which I get, which I get. So basically there's the notion that I came to be familiar with in the context of this story about Houdini trying to take down spiritualism was the notion that there are open-eye and closed-eye mediums, and the very short version is that an open-eye medium is consciously

running a scam and a closed-eye medium believes it to be real. In the case of a closed-eye medium, that's its own thing. I won't quibble with people's beliefs. In the case of an open-eye medium, someone who is consciously like preying upon the grief of people like this poor mama's boy who didn't get to say goodbye and are like deliberately taking advantage of that with fabricated messages.

Of course, the next person could say, well, if it makes the recipient feel better, does it matter that it's a deception? I sort of think that it does. I think it's kind of slimy. I think to consciously fabricate messages from dead people in order to gratify or shock or amaze or frighten is a gross way to earn money. Sorry. I seldom take stances that hardcore. I feel like if you're a fake psychic on purpose, I get why someone who, especially someone with like an intense and raw wound of grief would take issue with that.

Cause I would take issue with that. Yeah. But I think then it gets into strange territory of like, well, what if the person believes it? The closed eye medium. To me, that's a different thought. I don't like, if both of you are like entering this as a ritual that you're both sincere about, then yeah, then that's just labor. Pay the person, right? Like I get that. That's fair enough.

But I also think it is a situation where like the open-eye medium is de facto disguising themselves as the closed-eye medium, right? So if you approach a person and say, do you really believe this? Of course they'll say yes. So it literally does become a thing where like, I guess you just need to take someone at their word that they believe it, right? Or unless they've like really demonstrated through evidence throughout their lifetime

that they really believe this. Yeah. But I understand being suspicious for sure. Yeah. Well, and Houdini is certainly suspicious even when his new friend, he meets Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock's dad, and Sir Arthur, huge fan of spiritualism, involved in the story of the Cottingley fairies, his wife, Jean, is a medium herself. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle comes to spiritualism after the

death of his own son in World War I and because of that he's a pious believer in life after death and he's essentially a missionary of spiritualism because of that experience. Absolutely, but like based on a lot of the stuff that we've sort of covered in multiple, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle truly is one of our all-star. When we're drafting our picks for the team, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, because he's been in a few of these now, and he does seem like a true zealot on behalf of this cause, but he also seems like someone who like consciously fabricates on his behalf too, to me.

Yeah, I mean, he was happy to kind of jump on board. I think maybe that's another way to say it. And hand wave things and so on. Yeah, yeah. He meets Houdini. Houdini has lost his mother, very grief stricken and kind of in the same boat, I guess Doyle says, hey, get over here and my wife as a median will pack you through. So that's what they do. Houdini says later of the of the seance, I was willing to believe I even wanted to believe. Yeah. You know, he's of open mind. Everyone wants to believe.

If you could have the pipeline to someone you love who passed away, why wouldn't you want it? Just to say hello. Cause they're not going to say anything bad to you at these. It's never like, go get that thing on your arm checked out. It's always like, yes, I was proud of you. No, it doesn't matter that I never said it in life. Forget that. I love you. You know what? It's always like that. Not always that's an overstatement, but. Right. So during this seance, Jean calls on Cecilia and she uses automatic writing, what we talked about before, in terms of the physical mediumships. And it's where like a spirit will take over your hand and you can write. And so with the pen, apparently Cecilia writes, thank God, thank God at last I'm through.

Meaning like she's been patched through essentially like you say. I thank God this line was shit. Yeah, can finally hear you. Yeah. Houdini was not buying it. He says, in fact, my sainted mother could not write English and spoke broken English. Her first language was Hungarian. Sloppy.

And see, no, I'm so mad at Jean. Look. And like also like, shouldn't it be the mother's handwriting? Even if she, even if it was English, it should be in her handwriting, surely, right? Cause she's controlling the hand. It's sloppy jalopy. Truly, it's a gal aboard the Jean in her sloppy jalopy. Truly, truly, truly. I like Harry Houdini. I'm not impressed by this

farce. And Houdini was equally unimpressed. It kind of was the end of his friendship with Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. And it sent him even further and more fervently down the path of trying to debunk all mediums and kind of eradicate spiritualism. Because not only was he kind of like, I'm a skeptic now, he's like, this shit fucking sucks and I'm getting rid of it. The world needs people like that as much as it needs people like me who will soft pedal everything. I think you need both.

I think you need like both the person who will like go out of their way to just be a cult. Like what if there are spirits? And then you also need the person who will be like, no, there's not fucking spirits. This woman, she does not speak Hungarian. The world is a big place. It needs a lot of forces to keep it upright.

And then you also need people who are like, Sarathar Kunadur, like no really, trust me, they're spirits. So he writes books and is on tour and is explaining how spiritualism is horrible. He declares that seances are a form of legalized fraud. Wow. It's kind of funny,, because like... He's a magician? Yes. He uses magic tricks to fund his lifestyle. Yeah. True, but like he was not... Correct me if I'm wrong. He was not purporting these tricks to be legitimate magic.

He was saying, these are tricks. I'm just not telling you what they are. That's true. He wasn't saying that like legitimately I can hold my breath underwater for 20 minutes or whatever it is. He was just saying like, there's a way to do this. You just don't know what it is and I won't tell because that's the game. Am I wrong about that? No, no.

I mean, I think there's still kind of like similarity in between the two, but you're right. No, for sure. I thought it too. There is a distinction as well. He is so fervent in his mission to eradicate spiritualism and mediums, seances, all of it, that he appears before the 96th U.S. Congress with a bill, H.R. 8989, which has this long, ridiculous name, subchapter five of the code of law of the District of Columbia as amended to June 7th, 1924 relating to offenses against public policy. Rolls off the tongue.

Right. Howals for short. And yeah, essentially he's trying to make being a psychic medium practicing a science a crime that fortune telling be illegal and punishable by incarceration and financial penalties. Interesting. See, that's one of those things where like a case against it I I would imagine, is know

we're something like a religion, right? Yes. Yes, that's very good. Okay. So what ends up happening is his argument gets a little too kind of grandiose, I'd say, or not grandiose, but like- He thought he was escaping from the water tank. Oh, man.

Yeah. No, that's exactly it. like distract them with this and it's like wait No, that just undermines your whole argument. Just get to the point man. Just get to the point because he starts talking about how spiritualism and mediums who are typically women are stripping men of their power and that this is dangerous for the nation and da da da da da no one's perfect, hey? Meanwhile, the defendants who are there to defend spiritualism are prominent mediums who have been invited to the White House, who have worked with DC politicians, who are in the know.

So as Houdini is rattling off all these transgressions that these women are doing, they're sexually transgressive and this is demonic and this is horrible. Have you seen their haircuts? Right, yeah. The mediums who are defending themselves are pointing out very carefully and very tactfully that we have been invited by the very good Christian president himself to the White House. President Coolidge and his wife have invited us along with many of their advisors and other politicians. And if Houdini is saying this, then he's defaming the First Lady. How is that at all an argument of being proper and upholding patriotic ideals? It gets to the point where

the women who are on the stand are saying like, Houdini is saying these horrible things about not just us, little old us, but the president and all these politicians. And so the whole trial turns. We love a dramatic trial turn, don't we? It's so nice. It's Houdini's character that's on trial and not the question of seances and

mediums and all of it. Which he has a very good point that if this is demonstrably untrue, but people are paying for it under the pretense that it is true, that is fraud. Right. Yeah. If you pay for something and if you don't get what you paid for, that is fraud. But as you pointed out, they also tactfully say like, this is a religious belief. It is a faith. If you believe it, you believe it.

And it's not something you can really prove. Not in the court of law. Yeah. In the spiritual court, which is the name of my newsletter, it all becomes clear. I subscribe to the sub stack. I'm pretty stoked. So the trial just goes completely off the fucking rails. At one point Houdini is punched in the face. I don't even know. I think it's just like a fracasse and like, bum, bum, bum. Yeah. So this other moment. Yeah. A politician who was there, he fainted, the police were called.

It's just like, it's just a fucking mess. It's a four day trial of just messy, messy mess. And in the end, the bill collapsed. It doesn't go anywhere. Sounds like it. Right. But what does happen is one of the women who was on trial, Marjorie Crandon, she is channeled by the spirit of her dead brother who tells her that Houdini has but one more year to live and he would be gone by Halloween.

Okay. So you know that it's a real ghost because Halloween is their favorite holiday one. It's so true. Yes. One. Number two. That's why we're doing this episode now. Number two, that's such a funny message.

Don't worry, sis. He's going to die. Right? But here's the thing. October 22 of that year, Houdini is in Montreal. He has a presentation for some McGill students. And one of the students says, can I punch you in the abdomen? Because he's always talking about his rock hard abs.

And that's the thing that he'll like, yeah, punch away. People's sexiest man. Absolutely, those abs. The young man punched to the gut, does it. Later that evening after the presentation, Houdini has severe stomach pains. Like he can't move. It's so painful.

He has a temperature. He decides that he'll continue. He must continue. He goes to Detroit, Michigan to continue the tour. Classic hoods. But halfway through the show, he collapses. On October 25th, he agrees to go to the hospital. He finally sees a doctor who confirms that he has a ruptured appendix. And it's much too late though, because sepsis has set in.

Sepsis. Sepsis doesn't fuck around. That's true. It's Sunday, October 31st. Oh wow. And it's called Time of Death is 1 26 p.m. Halloween. Crazy. Crazy. That. Crazy, crazy. That chick's dead brother was right, you know. That was Bay Point at the bleachers. He called his fucking shot. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

He possessed that young man's fist right before it went in. It must be so easy to blame that one particular student for punching Houdini and killing him, but if Houdini's really been going around being like, hey, punch my abs, bro, then those build up, right? Over time. Yeah, over time, certainly.

Yeah, and this was just the one that did it. Yeah, wow. Fucked up. I did know that that was how Houdini had died. I didn't know the particulars about like the ruptured appendix and sepsis, but I did know that he was going around bragging about getting punched in the stomach

and someone took him up on it and it killed him. Yeah. As we say all the time, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. You live by the punch to the gut, you die by the punch to the gut. These endings do tend to be kind of predictable when it comes down to it.

So spiritualism survives the Houdini investigation, right? The Houdini skepticism. It's a big story. We're past World War II. We're in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1960s, right, is a big cultural shift. We're all fucked up on acid.

Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of that going on. It's deemed the age of Aquarius, right? Yeah, true, true. And what enters into the scene now is the New Age movement. It's the New Age. And this is an interesting time, right? Because this is the development of a lot of cults, not exclusively.

Cults have been around, but we see a lot of people searching for answers and trying to follow one particular leader to get those answers. San Francisco is a hell of a place. Hell of a place. Spiritualism again pushes against that, right? Because it's not about a leader. It's about what's inside you and your individualism and your intuition following what you have inside and no one else can really tell you what that is.

Sure. May I make an offer that back in episode 78 when we talked about Brother 12, that was a cult leader who, I guess, used the rhetoric and general vibe of spiritualism to run his cult. Because it was so individualistic, he was kind of able to say whatever he wanted to get people on board. So there is that aspect of it. But I do take on board what you're saying here. I realized too that like I'm using capitalist spiritualism. It's always like in the positive, I guess, because it's so individual. Because it's women and you like women. I love women. And it's also so decentralized. Spiritualism has so many different facets that of course, some of them are going to be not so great and some of them will be better, right? So it's kind of like, it's the shotgun effect where it's just like, well, it's just everything, right? So it's good and it's bad,

it's as everything. So we're in the age of Aquarius, it's the 1960s, a lot of drugs, a lot of cult leaders. Spiritualism is distinguishing itself as like it's still individual and they're also much as like a cohesive entity that spiritualism can be. They're not super into drugs. They're not super into acid, ayahuasca trips, that's not really part of the practice. The idea is that you are cognizant and you are open to beings from the other side. So drugs for them would be kind of an inhibitor of that, which is interesting just because it's so distinct, I think, from that era of hippie-dippippy woo-woo stuff, right? Even though it still gets called that. I agree. I just assume like when you said you introduced the decade, I was like, oh

yeah, everyone fucked up on acid. Sure. So it is interesting that there's like actually a sobriety associated with it more. Yeah. And it's still at this time and still even now, very closely tied to women. Women are predominantly practitioners in terms of structures that are in place. Women hold positions of power. Men do too. But I think there's an understanding that what is typically seen in our society is feminine energy that is given space. I wouldn't even say precedence because I don't think it's like, oh, let's all do that. It's just like, no, that gets space and we

recognize that it doesn't get space elsewhere. It might even get a little bit more space here. It's that kind of thing. Yeah. We're moving ahead to the 90s where we're getting a similar sense of new age, but now it's kind of getting tied closer to the market, right? This sense of entrepreneurship and how new age becomes kind of a marketing tool. I mean, isn't this the age of, I guess maybe it's the 2000s where we get our clairvoyant.

Miss Cleo. Yeah, yeah. She's like a 90s pastiche of like a 60s, 70s pastiche, you know? Yeah. No, exactly. The new wave of the new age, right? Yeah. Yeah.

The new wave of the new age and definitely open eye. Yes. Yes. Couldn't even get your tarot read when you called those hotlines, folks. Episode 31. Learn all about it. And part of this, too, and even with Miss Cleo, is what gets called soulpreneurs. So instead of entrepreneur, you're soulpreneur. You're making business and money based on these practices of the soul. Right.

And so there's a lot of like, gosh, like angel painting and candle making magic, very house making manifestation courses. So kind of like life coaching, that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Breath Arianism and whatnot. Yeah, right, right. But as spiritualism changes because the world changes, right? Like, you know, now there's like a Facebook and X and Twitter, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And like now your medium has a, an Instagram account that you can follow and that kind of thing. You can get your dog's tarot read over TikTok. Yeah. So there's these elements that like some

died in the wool spiritualists find very distasteful. But then at the same time, it's also like, well, we have to adapt and we have to understand the culture that we're in. And if we can bring people through those entry points into a spiritualist understanding, then isn't that the point? Isn't that what we're here to do is to help people?

That kind of idea. So it's an interesting, you know, shift in movement. I'd say that it's probably not as influential as like 1850s US. Spiritualism, like I love the way that it's so closely tied to the American story, like in terms of us being a very young country and what it's doing. And especially, I mean, if you think about the Puritanism that started this country too, and like breaking from that to get to an individualism, which is like also such an American ideal. Yeah, very true.

And how it is tied to all these kind of major things. And we kind of find it now in this entrepreneurial stage where medians are making money off of it. They're hustling and grinding just like the rest of us, right? They've got to pay the rent just like us. Yeah. And I don't mean that in any way, shape or form of like condemning it because I think if you have that ability and have that belief, have that faith, then make it work for you. Make that your day to day. Do what you love, dog. Do what you love, you know? And if you don't actually, dot, dot, dot. I should say that one of my main sources was this book called The In-Betweens by Myra Pitkin.

She's a journalist. She's writing a nonfiction book about this specific spiritualist camp that's in Maine called Camp Etna, which that was another aspect that we didn't get into, but there was all these gathering grounds in the 1800s and 1900s and Camp Edna was one of them. But as a journalist, she's entering this with a certain amount of skepticism. And she's also like, she's willing to try anything. She's open minded, but she's also like, I'm here to observe. I'm not really here to practice in the same way. Peggy Delaney. Peggy Delaney, yeah. We do more advertising for that show than the CBC did when it was actually running, I bet.

I think that must be it, yeah. So Myra Pitigan has this really wonderful way of approaching it, I think, because in reading about all of the spiritualist practice and the history, which I think is really fascinating, but also even about the practices that are still ongoing, the table tipping and like water dousing, which is you use like rods to find water. It's interesting and strange and very woo woo. But then at the same time, I'm intrigued.

I'm definitely intrigued. It always starts with intrigued, doesn't it? And then it goes somewhere real interesting, always. And so, I guess to kind of circle back, what was it about spiritualism that brought you to this specific graveyard in Galveston? So, it was actually just happenstance that I did that tour. Mitchell signed us up.

Got it. I really had no idea. There was a ghost tour that could take place downtown or there was one in the cemetery. And I think the one downtown probably had a little bit more like story based stuff. Mitchell knows his wife. You want cemetery, don't you?

Well, that was the only one that was available. Which would you have picked? I'm... Cemetery scarier, but more intriguing, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. But Downtown would be fun because you're like in the mix and like things are happening, people are there.

And then it's like Angost was right there, dee dee dee, which is kind of cool. Yeah, I don't know. I think it was just meant to be that I was in the cemetery, the old city cemetery meant to be you, Mitchell and Annette. And Annette was so cool. You're really sweet. But I think kind of, yeah, bringing it back to Annette, I think there's this very interesting way of approaching history through of approaching history through the dead. I'll say it that way. Yeah.

Like through an understanding that- Who knows history better than the dead? Yeah, exactly. The people who lived it. The people who lived it, yeah. And I mean, as like woo woo or spooky as that sounds, I think there's something to wanting to know older stories. Like that's what history is.

But there's, you know, if you're tying it to the quote unquote the dead, you're tying it to people, you're tying it to like a time, a place and an individual, which makes it all very specific and very real in a way that, you know, reading the history of Blatida or the history of Galveston doesn't really affect you as much. I tend to think of tours like that as, in my most cynical way, I can think of them as a bit crass or a bit exploitative, but I think that if done with like good custodianship and good intention, like we talked about this kind of like thoughtful person by person approach

to dismantling the grave, right? That also applies to like, if you're doing a story like this, don't be like there with your hands all bloody and being like, she was a murderous wench. You'd be like, this was this woman's life. These were her times. You could wear a black dress. No one will be mad at you for that, but do it respectfully.

And it sounds like it's all going well at the Galveston Cemetery, isn't it? And I think at least like my research of spiritualism also revealed that too, that it is the practitioners of spiritualism, spiritualists, approach it in a similar way. Maybe it's not an affinity for history in the same way that Annette has, but it's an affinity for people, living or not, and treating it with respect like that. And also like this idea of, you know,

there's a boundary that gets crossed by the dead and the living and you have to be respectful of that and maintain that boundary when you need it. I don't know, there's a lot of elements of spiritualism that I was like, that's just good like life practice, you know, like set good boundaries, pay attention. This is your Esperanto a little. I think it might be my Esperanto. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to like Duolingo spiritualism. Like poop. This is, this is like pretty legit. Yeah, exactly. One of the things too was about meditation. That meditation is essentially calming yourself and paying attention and entering a vibration

of energy that is conducive for, in this case, speaking to the dead. But it's also just meditation, right? It's like, fuck, I should meditate. Yeah. If there's anything you need to come out of this episode with to tide you over until we see you again in December for our Christmas episode, let it be this. You should meditate more. Yeah. Yeah. Say your intentions, you know, meditate.

Also, spooky dookie Halloween. Happy Halloween, everybody! Trick or treat! Thanks for listening! If you want more infamy, we've got plenty more episodes at bittersweetinfamy.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to support the podcast, shoot us a few bucks via our Ko-fi account at ko-fi.com forward slash bittersweetinfamy. But no pressure, bittersweetinfamy is free, baby!

You can always support us by liking, rating, subscribing, leaving a review, following us on Instagram at bittersweetinfamy, or just pass the podcast along to a friend who you think would dig it. Stay sweet! The source that I used for this episode's minifamous was Japan's Jimmy Mundane Halloween Costumes of 2023 published October 29th, 2023 by Johnny in Spoon and Tomago. And then various other images from this event sourced from various years from various users

over the internet. The sources that I used for this week's episode include the book, The Inbetweens by Myra Pitikin. It was published in 2019 by Live Write Publishing Corporation. I also watched a video that featured Kathleen Maka and her book, Galveston's Broadway Cemetery. This was featured on Texas Chronicles with Joe Perez, which was uploaded to YouTube December 21st, 2015. And I got a lot of wonderful information

from Annette Kinslow and her ghost tour of Old City Cemetery in Galveston, Texas. If you're ever in Galveston, Texas, you should look up Annette Kinslow because she gives a really good tour. A big old shout out to our monthly subscribers, Ramon Esquivel, Dylan and Sactual the Cat, Erica Jo Brown, Jonathan Mountain, Lizzie Dee and Soph. We want to thank you all so much for all your support this season and we can't wait to see you next season too. If you too would

like to become a monthly subscriber, you can have your name read in this awesome cool way and you get access to monthly subscriber exclusives, including the Bittersweet Film Club. Up next in the Bittersweet Film Club is our double feature episode of Orphan 2009 and Orphan First Kill 2022. So please head over to coffee.com slash bittersweetinfamy

to become a monthly subscriber and access the Bittersweet Film Club. That's k-o-f-i.com slash bittersweetinfamy. Bittersweetinfamy is a proud member of the 604 Podcast Network. This episode was lovingly edited by Alexi Johnson and Alex McCarthy. The interstitial music you heard earlier was by Mitchell Collins. And the song you're listening to now is Tea Street by Brian Steele.

Happy Halloween!