Blank Check with Griffin & David - A Clockwork Orange with Alex Ross Perry

Episode Date: October 16, 2022

Attention all droogs: grab your Nadsat dictionaries and your bowler hats, it’s time to drink some drug-milk! We’ve got our very own Alex - Ross Perry, that is - on the pod to go long on Kubrick’s controversial X-rated dystopian nightmare, 1971’s A CLOCKWORK ORANGE. We’re reminiscing about our rebellious teenage years, which for Alex included a trip to New York to see The Prodigy in concert, and for David included a “Pinter phase.” Did you all know that David grew up in England? Plus - Ben learns that Malcolm McDowell was once married to CLIFFORD’s own Mary Steenburgen, Griffin learns about Kubrick’s preferred brand of storage boxes, and David learns that Alex and Griffin have given him a mysterious new nickname. Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com or at teepublic.com/stores/blank-check

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the podcast. God damn it. It's fine. You did a great job. Tried. He's got such a... Well, he's doing a Yorkshire accent, and you were doing like a Yorkshireman, but like a farmer Yorkshireman. You were getting more farmer.

I'm so lost already. I know. I also like hiccuped in the middle of it. I'm sick. I need a new cough drop. But part of it is also I understand the accent he's doing but Malcolm McDowell has

an incredibly unique voice. There's a musicality to his voice that is very hard to replicate. And it's funny. Look, we're going to talk about McDowell a lot. You don't want to? I think there's a lot to talk about.

He's like the seventh most important thing in the movie. I just think we've maybe never talked about him on the podcast before and he's such an interesting, bizarre movie star. Right, but we can only talk to him

up until this movie. We can only talk about him up until this movie. We can do whatever we want. I'm saying his subsequent career is not under discussion as of 1971. We can talk about whatever we want. There are no rules like that on this podcast. We can talk about it whatever we want. I'm saying his subsequent career is not under discussion as of 1971. We can talk about whatever we want. There are

no rules like that on this podcast. We can talk about whatever we want, but you're pretending that you only have four hours until we have to leave, which means you have to make some diligent cuts on what we're discussing. This podcast is a Warren Beatty production as far as I'm concerned. Rules don't apply. Now, David has

continually tried to stress a heart out. Yeah! it's three hours which which he seems to do with more severity when this guest is on the show but he comes in we a guest loaded to bear with a printed uh it's not is it printed no or is it handwritten this the shirt or the the the shirts for this is printed is printed. This is seven single-space printed pages. And not a big font, I'm seeing from here. I just feel like every time there's an art episode, Alex comes with printed documents in hand,

and David comes with a hard-out in hand. Two incompatible things. Yeah. I mean, we'll talk about this actor, Mr. Malcolm McDowell, of course. I will say, you say, I mean, I think I agree with that. Like, he's not really, he didn't really have a long movie star career. This is what I think is fascinating about him.

Is that he has this kind of great, like, young angry man career, right? Where he becomes, like, sort of a cultural avatar. Briefly, at least. Across, like, the Lindsay Anderson movies and this. Right? Yeah. But like especially you look at If, A Lucky Man, and this. But that's all 67 to 73, right? Absolutely.

Is If 67 or did I miss that? If is 68. To me, he almost seems like the definition of a guy where you're just like, well, his career is going to be totally locked to this period. When someone's this tapped into the youth culture and a certain energy and whatever,

it's like, is he bud court? Is he like not going to be able to age? And then there's sort of like weird period, but he does have this odd career where it's like, A, he's got like the Eric Roberts thing where you look at his IMDb and you're like,

this guy does 18 movies a year. He does work a lot. He'll do anything. He also does a ton of television. Yes. So much TV. And he'll do anything. But you're like,

he has transitioned pretty well into being like elder statesman, both in terms of like villain. I say this with a lot of respect for Malcolm McDowell, who I do like a lot as an actor, even as current Malcolm. Yeah.

But he's like, he's like the eighth elder statesman you call. I'm not disagreeing. You've gotten some hang-ups. When you're like, Malcolm? And he's like, I'll do it. I'm not disagreeing. And he does enough bullshit that he'll never have Brian Cox gravitas to him.

The villain in Caesar, Cox is above him and I would say Cox, especially pre-succession, was not that high on that list. Would you agree? They must have called Malcolm for X2. They maybe, did they call, or were they like,

Cox fucking turns us down and they're looking at the pin board, they're like, Malcolm McDowell, I guess? They're neck and neck. That's the question. Yeah, he, because Cox is a little more sprightly.

What was like, was it gangster number one? What was was the one The one huge Old man McDowell part That people were like It's Gangster No. 1 And that movie was very niche

I'm surprised we've even all heard of it Because I feel like that movie didn't come out Well, Paul McGuigan Yeah, it's a Paul McGuigan movie And I sat next to Paul McGuigan at a dinner once For three hours and had a wonderful conversation with him Hey, well that's a Paul McGuigan movie. I sat next to Paul McGuigan at a dinner once for three hours and had a wonderful conversation with him.

Hey, well, that's a humble brag. Well, speaking of three hours, I will say that the McDowell thing, just because I'll keep trying to do bring it back to Kubrick for this. He's just like the perfect

Kubrick lead because he's one of many people that had a tremendously huge career after the Kubrick movie they were in. And this would still be the first thing on their obituary. It certainly obviously could be the...

Ryan O'Neill, I would say almost undeniably. Modine and D'Onofrio, I feel like a lot of people in these movies, it's kind of their defining role. I think that D'Onofrio will get the wide-spanning character actor of note. But maybe...

No question that Fullmetal Jack is the first one. It is kind of his defining performance, and Modine has certainly, like, made so much of his life around that movie experience of making that movie. There's no question. Right. And then the only...

McDowell, there's no question, obviously. It's true of more Kubrick leads than it's not. And I feel like that's always one of the interesting things about his body of work and his actors is oftentimes it's their signature role. There was a 40th anniversary look back thing on the Blu-ray or maybe it was 50th, whatever it was. But it was Malcolm McDowell in some office

with a bunch of different documents that the Warner Brothers archives had pulled up like going through memory lane about the movie and he just flatly says like what you're an actor you only get to be in like one movie this great if you're lucky I mean by and large

some actors would disagree and be like hey I was actually in a lot of really famous movies and then he's like sorry I have to go tour my one man show talking about Lindsay Anderson Steps out on stage and goes, you only get to be in Two Mick Travis movies as great as these And these are my defining films You only get to be on three

Well, three, but he only He only really talks about If and Oh Lucky Man He doesn't talk about I'm just saying You'll do that on Patreon, right? Oh, absolutely The Lindsay Anderson Did you know that Alexander Siddig I'm just saying. You'll do that on Patreon, right? I do think. Oh, absolutely. The McTravis trilogy? The Lizzie Anderson.

Did you know that Alexander Siddig, a.k.a. Siddig El Fadil, do you know who that is? He was on Battlestar Galactica? Yeah, Deep Space Nine, but also a million other things. Oh, yes, yes, yes. You know that guy? Yes.

He's Malcolm McDowell's nephew? Really? The more you know. What would we do without David's computer? Introduce our podcast. Podcast is called Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David.

And you know that, of course, his son, Malcolm McDowell's son, directs movies. Charlie McDowell. Right. He made The One I Love and some other stuff. Now, do you know who, Ben, do you know who is the mother of Charlie McDowell, Malcolm McDowell's son? No. In my opinion, one of the- We'll put a pin in the Charliedowell talk and just move on to

your podcast one of the stranger celebrity couples a brief celebrity couple right yeah but a weird one like a decade i think they had like a decade together yeah malcolm mcdowell mary steenburgen we're married they are oh really those just like seem like such opposite energies right made a movie together i have such a crush on her. Only if you saw Time After Time. Ever since I saw her in Clifford, I've had the biggest crush on her. So it makes perfect sense, David. You might need to clear out an extra hour. We gotta dig into that.

The psychosexual energy of Ben. We have talked enough about Clifford. The other crazy thing is that... Gotta do a third Clifford episode. The other crazy thing, of course, is he's one of those guys who then married again later in life and had kids when he was like 70. Sure. So he's got like young children now.

Yeah. He's got rugrats. Look, he likes to work. He's an active fellow. You guys should plan playdates with Malcolm McDowell's kids. They're probably the same age as your kids. He lives in Ojai, apparently, so it's a bit of a trek from here. Ojai. Ojai, California. Sure. Ojai. It's a podcast about filmographies,

directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. Baby!

Uh, yep. It's a main series on the film's Stanley Kubrick. It's called Pods Widecast. Today we're talking Clockwork Orange with the clockbuster himself

when it comes to episode length, Alex Ross-Perry. Punching the clock. A Clockwork Orange. A Clockwork Orange. Which brings me to one of my first questions. David, you like organization. Sure. You like compulsive list making. Yes.

Alphabetically. Alphabetically. A and then the title or title comma A. of list making. Yes. Alphabetically. Alphabetically. A, and then the title or title comma A. Oh, like where would I... This is one of my pet peeves. Whichever one of these

I disagree with. And you say this is a former video store employee. Yes. Someone who had to organize things. Clockwork Orange is an A movie to me. No, but I'm...

So in a... If you were listing movies alphabetically, this would be first. Yes. Correct. It drives me nuts when people... No, I don't like... Yeah, I'm... So, if you were listing movies alphabetically, this would be first. Yes. Correct. It drives me nuts when people... No, I don't like... Yeah, I'm not into Clockwork Orange, A. Yeah, it's not V. Z is the only one that you're allowed to pull that nonsense. I couldn't agree more.

I've been waiting to litigate this with you for months. I'm glad we already reached a resolution. We're on... Right, we're on the same page. I just like a title that is this oblique and also has an unnecessary element to it because this is not the story of the

Crockwood Orange this is just a one of many it would be funny if at one point he was like alright feel like

a bit of a Crockwood Orange right now if he just said the title right well it's like A Wedding

the Allman movie I think you guys talked about that would drive me crazy too right if I'm looking for A Wedding and the A's

Some clerk shuffles over and it's like It's wedding comma A It just drives me nuts when people abuse the alphabet that way As a, not only an A name Does it make you want to do a bit of the old ultraviolence? It doesn't drive me that nuts Alright, good We're not at that stage

Let's talk reasonably Let's check back in in about an hour and a half or so. We'll see how we're feeling. Hour and a half. Well, I think I'll be ready to commit some of the ultra-badness. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we'll see. I think the thing that's interesting to me about McDowell is...

Malcolm McDowell, star of A Clockwork Orange. You said this is Kubrick, right? Yeah, I said that A Clockwork Orange. I don't know. We interrupt each other a lot. I'm as guilty as anyone. I'm not sure if you said the name of the show. I did.

I heard it. Okay, fine. I'm David. I'm Griffin. I'm David guilty as anyone. I'm not sure if you said the name of the show. I did. I heard it. I'm Griffin. I'm Griffin. I'm David. I haven't introduced our guest. I introduced him. I do the clock buster. Or maybe you didn't. I said that. I said his name.

I did. I said Alex Ross Perry. Alex Ross Perry to some. Alex to his friends. Alex DeLarge I went through a, my parents famously David, you know this, it's hard to name a child Now you obviously picked your child's name from watching a movie

I don't want to say my kid's name on it but I also don't know what you're referencing Boss Baby Oh, right, right It's hard to name things. My parents just said, much like you may have done, we have a list of names. And we just clocked a name in a movie credits

and we wrote it down and that name was Alex and it stuck. Oh, really? That's how your parents? Yes. And then for years. Your parents being like, they don't remember what movie.

They don't remember what movie. They don't even remember. It's just it was in the credits or a TV show or something. But then for years, I told people I was named after Alex in A Clockwork Orange. Right.

And then I realized that reflected very weirdly on my parents. You refer to this as your favorite movie of all time. On any given day, it's number one. Any given day,

I could easily rank this number one without feeling like that is fraudulent. Did it make your sight and sound list? Not only that. If it's number one on any given day. You said to me it's number one with a bullet. Number one, yeah, on any given day. Right.

It's easily, the only thing I, imagining that I'm a chorus of people, could all reach a consensus on and just say, it's just number one. But we were talking, both of you recently submitted your sight and sound list, and we were talking about this, Alex, and you said, like,

my list is Clockwork Orange number one, Alex, and you said, like, my list is Clockwork Orange number one and then here's the rest of them. Alphabetically. Right. Alphabetically, it was number one as we just covered. But you were also saying, like,

that is the one. It's the movie. It's the movie of my life. It's the movie and then it's nine other films even though the list isn't technically ranked. No. Yeah. It's a very important film to me.

And I also, and I remember exactly when I saw it, which is fun When did you see it? Well, so I came up with some dates here On June 16th, 1998 Prince at Singlespace What's happening in the world?

The AFI 100 is released Oh, sure, sure, okay On June 16th, 1998, the AFI 100 is released On June 29th and 30th, 1998, I, from Philadelphia, take the train up to New York to visit my grandparents, who live in Westchester. Humble breath. So that, on July 29th...

And you don't live in New York, so it's a long train ride. No, it's two hours. So that on June 29th, two weeks after the AFI 100 is released, I can go see The Prodigy at Hammerstein Ballroom by myself. Oh, the electronic music act. Absolutely. Wow. Who I was a huge fan of at the time.

Right. Ben, Prodigy? Sure. Outer Space, Underrated. I still listen to Outer Space all the time and my wife will be like, turn this off. You listen to The Prodigy all the time?

Outer Space is a constant car jam for me. Pinning this, pinning this, pinning this, we're coming back is that a song or is that the album it's a song on their first album experience we were debating whether i should talk about it but that's a huge ass pin and let's now put it we'll put a pin okay is it like a sort of gallagher size it could be so what is it it's a comically experience jilted generation and fat Land. Yeah, those first three albums are the good albums.

Fat of the Land is blowing up. They're not playing in Philadelphia. I'm obsessed with them. I have to come to New York. So it's on that trip that I was already making my way through the AFI 100. And I remember sitting

in my grandparents' basement and they took me to Blockbuster, I guess. And I rented it and watched it there. And that was my exposure to it. Because within two weeks, I was just, I must have looked at them and I thought,

this seems like probably one of the first 10 movies on this list I should see. Now, at 1998, how old are you? I guess I was a few weeks shy of turning 14. So that's,

I would say on the younger, it's a very violent and sexually violent film. To paraphrase the final line of the first part of the book, and me, only 13 years old. Hmm. Hmm. I mean, I saw this movie for the first part of the book and me only 13 years old.

I mean, I saw this movie for the first time in English class. We read this book. I mean, you're fancy. Stupid. Liberal school. That your wife went to as well. I know. I make fun of her too. You mock my stupid school that I hate that I went to.

I make fun of her as well. Yeah, you gotta. But we read the book and then the first time I watched it was in an English class. stupid school that I hate that I went to. Make fun of her as well. Yeah, you gotta. Dorks. But we read the book and then the first time I watched it was in an English class. I was either 15 or 16. But like a weird movie to watch with a teacher watching you watch it.

Yeah, I probably wouldn't do that. A girl in my class when we watched it fainted and hit her head on the corner of a desk and they had to call the ambulance. So you also watched it in school? Did you read it in school? No.

Why did you watch it in school? P.E. class. School is like not like... I think it was like a psychology class. But it was high school though, so that doesn't make sense. I don't know what subject it was, but it was like kind of maybe the teacher

really phoning it in. Yeah, but beyond that, it's also like two and a half hours long. I got a bunch of classes you got to do. You're sitting there and your teachers are like, we're going to watch this movie. Just by the way, this movie is illegal to watch in certain other countries. But we'll just show it to you teenagers and assume that this is fine. That's what's insane is that like I'm watching this in a high school class

in, like, 2003 or 4, and you're, like, five, six years removed from this movie, finally being clear. I guess it's not banned. I guess I forgot that. Yes.

No, it was... Well, so, in America, I don't think it was ever... No, in so many other countries. I mean... Well, it's really just Britain, I think. I mean, maybe others.

I have a longer list for you. South Africa, Singapore, you know, like, certainly. Africa, Singapore, you know, like certainly, but like the thing about Britain is like when I was a teenager where I grew up in that country. Wait, what country? Country of the United Kingdom and Great Britain,

Northern Ireland. When you say grew up, what do you mean? You feel like you grew up there? Wouldn't that be funny? If that's what I mean. You sort of had like a coming of age. I just kind of feel like I grew up there. Is this that be funny? Like you sort of had like a coming of age. I just kind of feel like I grew up there.

Is this some kind of weird slang that you've invented? I don't understand what you're saying. I live there. I believe this might be the most British film you've ever covered on the show. It might be because we have not covered enough. I mean, Stanley Kubrick is almost the most British director we've ever covered. And I'm glad that you live there. I feel like you should have had a British person on.

I'm glad I got to come in, but there's nobody here that can really speak to the culture of this movie. The problem is that there's no one here who has any sort of

lived experience of being a youth, an angry youth. In England. A disenfranchised teen male. I moved to England in 1995.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this. I've lived there for 13 years, which I've discussed on this podcast many times. This has never come up. It's just like an unreliable sense of narration

It is As many might know Kubrick withdrew this film From Britain Entirely pretty much in 1970 Pretty much just like a year after it came out And it was just not really Shown again until he died

There is this one cinema club That showed it in 93 and people sort of cite that as like see but like but he like sued them and they went into receivership or something like you know so really it was his death sure that brought it back in britain because he this sort of self-imposed thing was gone in ireland the film was banned 1973 it was finally released uncut in 1999. Same thing, right. Right. What were the other ones here?

Brazil? South Africa. These are military dictatorships. Spain. Those are all dictatorships. Malta. I can't speak to Malta, but the other three. Why was it banned?

Well, for various reasons. It's too good. It's like, you know. It was too good. Okay, that checks out. It could be because of the sexual violence of it. It's too good. It's like, you know. It was too good. Okay, okay, that checks out. It could be because of the sexual, you know, violence of it or just because like. Does every time something happened

that was vaguely copycat-ish? It was not banned in Britain. That's what I'm trying to say. Like when I was a teenager, we were like, that movie is unwatchable because it's so fucked up. Yeah. Like the other video, Nasty's.

But no, it was just Kubrick saying no fine you think it's too violent I won't show it but if you did he would come after you because he had a bee in his bonnet and he did wear a bonnet a famous bonnet wearer that's why he didn't go out in public

much because people made fun of his bonnet when I was 13 years old he died okay that must have been tough for you walking down the streets of new york city an american boy born and raised mourning the death of stanley a fellow new york my bronx brothers tell a new york legend i remember my dad picked me up at the mall and i got into the car and he just looked at me And he said Stanley Kubrick died And I just was like I couldn't believe what I was hearing

It was already This is about one year into My love of At that point I'd seen Many other of his Not all And at that point I just couldn't believe

That this had already happened I remember being fairly shocked too Obviously it was also Because I've been looking for a Eyes Wide Shut for a year At this point But he dies And then pretty quickly after that

the movie is suddenly released on dvd and vhs in britain and we i was 13 years old we were all like griffin described what i just did uh his jaw dropped right we were like we're gonna see this fucking crazy movie and so it was just this movie had a gargantuan like every teenager i knew was obsessed with it including me a little bit like you know it was just, this movie had a gargantuan, like every teenager I knew was obsessed with it, including me a little bit. Like, you know, it was just sort of like- Because it gave this view into a culture so far away from New York. Right.

Fuck's sake, stop doing the bit. I'm canceling the bit. No more bit. Can I tell you- I want to talk about my life on this podcast. And this is such a British movie that there's this chasm here. People drive me so crazy.

Can I tell you that Alex texted me like two weeks ago and was like, we need to plan the most aggressive attack on the country. It's just the most British movie.

It's the most British movie possible. Someone tweeted at me something. I can't remember what I tweeted back, but I was like, it really, you know,

I'm just afraid to ever talk about anything because I think people will do the bit. And then someone texted me privately and was like, this is a very sad message from you. And I was like, yes, I meant it sincerely. Well, it's nice to have friends. Someone clearly texted me being like, you're just kidding, right?

And I was like, no, not really. And it's good to have people in your life that are like, that is sad. I'm going to keep doing it. I'm going to keep doing it. 100%. The sadness is what fuels the engine in the car. Your wife essentially did the bit at your wedding by the way yes yeah which we discussed with you this is a legendary moment

we gave her so many comedy points yeah she did a great job it was like rice being thrown at her this episode i think is coming before the shining episode uh yes i certainly hope it for listeners that for whatever reason the shining episode also contains a sort of like we've been too soft you know like someone taking their foot their shoe off and banging on the table being like the bit must return you picked a bat yeah well because this episode i mean you picked yeah i hope this episode comes in between 2001 and barry lyndon uh it it does okay yeah because you seemed unsure about where this movie fell before After the Shining. No, I'm just, we've recorded that episode. Yes.

We can refer to it as a done deal. I'm just alerting viewers to more of this nonsense in a couple of weeks. This is a very British movie. It's a very British movie. Written by a very British novelist, based on a very British actor. Yes. And a British-ish filmmaker and stunning british character actors and locations with locations i would say it's a very british movie but i'm

also trying to say that like for my generation of english teens and i was a teen when this movie was like i don't get this he said he doesn't want to do bits he's gonna murder you guys and i'm gonna have to clean up my apartment like it was just like i don't know we it felt like our movie even though this was an a period an old film like it felt like we got to discover this this secret thing even though that's kind of not even what it was it was just kubrick's b in his bonnet right my my thing is i mean alex raises a good point of just like, this is essentially a movie made by a British filmmaker, but what complicates this, and I have

to explain this to you, David, is that Stanley Kubrick was born and raised in New York City. He was born and raised in yon Bronx. But then he moved to England. Now, is the Bronx Bronx comma the? Or is it the Bronx? If you were listing the boroughs alphabetically

it would be under, well I don't know The Bronx is burning you would list It could be like Ukraine where they drop the the over time That, Griffin, is a great way to put it Is the Bronx is burning Bronx is burning comma the because the answer according to a lot of style guides

would be no because the Bronx is actually considered sort of like a proper name on the subway map does it say the Bronx when you look at the subway map I feel a Batman yeah you know sometimes when we do episodes on movies that are like you know gonna potentially bring in new listeners I always

like to sort of check in about 15 or 20 minutes on the subway it is the Bronx seven pages single space I just remember when I I'm sure a lot of people have hit the stop 15 or 20 minutes. We're getting a good stop. Ben, Ben. On the subway, it is the Bronx. Seven pages. Seven pages, single space. I just remember when I... Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people have hit the stop button, is what I'm trying to say.

We've covered this much of page... Oh, God. We've only covered when the AFI list came out. Yeah, that's all I've gotten to. I can just, you know, speed round. This has the great benefit... No, slow down. This has the great benefit of...

Very rarely do I get to come in for an episode where I've already heard part of the miniseries because of you guys already released. So I get to sort of join the conversation of Kubrick rather than not knowing how you're talking about him. But did you finish your thought about teen David?

Should I do more about me being English? David and his droogs. Do you want to? I'm sure it'll come up again. I don't know if this is true for you guys. Did you guys dress up as the Droogs? He beat me to it. Any Halloween I went to as a teenager, someone was dressed up. Which one were you? Dim.

I mean, Dim's kind of the big one, right? I probably would have been Dim if I had to do it. David Dimms? No, Save It Dimms. You blew it. Save It Dimms. People would hit me With that all the time They flip me out

If you swap the letters That's funny Like you'd be like Niffin grooming Right Kind of cool It is cool Yeah exactly

I like that guy You'd be like It's harder with vowels You can't flip vowels But then people Would be doing it And then they'd go Ken Bosley

You'd be what Save it dims And they'd be like Wait a second Save it dims Save it dims So they'd be like wait a second save it dims save it dims so no one ever got you into a dim bowler

you never went full dim no even though it's an easy-ish Halloween costume I suggested doing it today Bart did it who did it

Bart Simpson he did do it Bart did it he's one of them I just feel like it's very appealing the droogs were at Space Jam right

they went to the yes I caught yes that I did see the movie, but that was one of the IP... I have an IP-related quandary for Kubrick.

Yeah. I could bring it up now since it was something I wanted to bring up for closing thoughts. It could also be opening thoughts.

Yeah. It's more of a closing thought. Let's start the episode. Yeah. Enough dicking around. I just feel like it's

very daunting for you guys to cover Kubrick. These movies are not easy to talk about. There's no lack of information on them and everyone after a certain point

is absurdly complicated and thorny to understand the intentions or the filmmaking of well also it's just sort of like we're only got two to three hours here

no I mean I would say three to four but you know it's like we're gonna say whatever we think but like there's no way we could possibly encompass

everything that's been thought about these movies they're basically movies that could do, you know, someone could say I'm doing a 10 episode podcast on 2001 or Clockwork. The exercise for me has been like, Barry Lindy could be one of those like,

minute and episode movies. Yes. Sure. The exercise for me has been, watch the movie and try to take all the pressure off of it and then just do an episode responding to what I thought watching the film just now.

Agreed. Rather than feeling the pressure. Being like, this is the Cocker Carnage episode. Right. We have to do everything about it. That's my approach. Unfortunately,

that's my approach. But I do feel like it's been interesting hearing you kind of get Kubrick started. I think I told you both this, you know, previously,

but I feel like you were a little hard on fear and desire in the earlier movies. You're a big fear and desire defender. I defend fear and desire. Your first feature film that you made was sort of an homage.

Not sort of. It's not an homage. I just think that if you're young, as we were when discovering Kubrick, you're, David, you know, we're both renting NTSC VHS tapes of Kubrick movies

and watching them. My VHS tapes were long. They were languorous, right? Is Pal longer? I can't remember. Longer? Because there's a time difference with Pal and Anastasia.

It's 24 to 25 frames a second. Which is the longer one? Pal is an extra frame. Yeah, a nice long VHS. So your family had like an import deck, right? You were... Yeah, of course.

That's crazy. I was just like, I want to spend more time with these movies. Give me an extra frame, baby. You had to go to BH Photo to get one of them? The excitement of discovering him

as the sort of to you know reference obvious monolith of film which he was already but before he died he's sort of by that point

the defining filmmaker of the second half of the 20th century in many ways sort of baton passes from Hitchcock to him in terms of just Mount Rushmore

and just also at least for decades probably the most famous named director yes even though he made I don't know 25% as many films as Hitchcock sure Mount Rushmore. And just also, at least for decades, probably the most famous named director. Yes. Even though he made,

I don't know, 25% as many films as Hitchcock. Sure. But I felt like seeing Fear and Desire and to a lesser extent Killer's Kiss is just sort of

this important thing from an artistry standpoint of like, wow, Stanley Kubrick started here. Right. That to me is,

I think, something that was just, I just wanted to correct the record a little bit. You didn't really mention, it's just, you see 2001. You see this movie. You, I just wanted to correct the record a little bit. You didn't really mention, it's just, you see 2001. You see this movie. You're coming in just to correct the record

on the stupid fear and desire. Yeah, that's right. Where we were just like tired. I don't even remember what we said. Insofar as I'm saying, this is my relationship with Kubrick. Also, that movie's a piece of shit. I just think it's incredibly crucial because Hitchcock, it's like, you know,

those early silent films, they're not masterpieces. And also, no one really- It's a different era. Right. But I just feel like watching fear and desire and killer's kiss because nobody killer's kiss is probably the last kubrick movie most people would get around to seeing prior to fear and desire being available being available right seeing those movies is just like wow so he really like he he started small that is such a crucial lesson about him that kind

of got written out of history with the availability of the white box set being so common. Did the white box set begin with Lolita? Lolita. And no Spartacus. And then when it was originally released, no Eyes Wide Shut. But just those three earlier were on the MGM DVDs.

Those were not, you know, you had to go get those separately. There was no box set. And I remember as a teenager, the rap on those was like, yeah, and he made those, you know, you had to go get those separately. There was no box set. And I remember as a teenager, the rap on those was like, yeah, and he made those, you know, whatever.

It was like for hire. They're all shorter. They're all kind of rougher. They're black and white. The white box set, which was like the 98, 99 release, which goes uprated with Eyes Wide Shut.

Yeah. Warner Brothers licensing some of the other films. Just Strange Love. Oh, right. Right. It did feel like it was like, these are the films that he is presenting as Azuv.

This is the collection. Right. The other ones, you're not like... They don't really count. Well, it's like, well, they got... I'm looking at the spine. Strangelove has the Columbia logo, so obviously they could have gotten Paths of Glory

if they wanted. Just in the box set. But I feel like those earlier ones, you know, it was sort of like, I'll get to them. So I just think as like a filmmaker, it's just invaluable to be like, you can make Fear and Desire and then later you can make 2001. That is a truly possible arc for an artist. You don't have to start by making Lolita. You don't

have to start by making an Academy Award nominated film. You get to make like a scrappy kind of thing and still become Stanley Kubrick. There's something about him not being this like out of the box wunderkind. It's just worth mentioning rather than this out-of-the-box wunderkind. It's just worth mentioning. Rather than saying that the movie is valueless. You are correct. I didn't say it was valueless. I said it was bad. You threw your hands over your head and said it stinks. Yeah, it stinks.

Stank up the joint. I had to open all the windows. To me, that sounds like you're saying it's value. You're saying it's value is that something that stinks. I saw people saying this on the red. I think we said, you know, I cannot remember anything i've ever said in this podcast but you know i think we were still like oh there's some interesting imagery sort of starts out more interesting than it ends i saw someone on the reddit say like there is this thing that's kind of beautiful about watching fear and desire and and seeing like the mortality of this man in a way it's very important

even like you're talking like following you're're like, oh, it's all there. Everything is there. The character has the same name as Inception. He just refines it. It's all there. Then the leap to Memento is not as huge as we thought it was

when it's like, and he made some other, but the desire to these movies, once you're in this run, it's like, Jesus, that is crazy that this guy leveled up that strongly

just like in the span of seven movies. Well, we were also talking about this, Alex, and I feel like this is the other thing if we have any sort of like, not agenda in doing Kubrick and

our approach, but I do think it's a thing we keep on coming back to is like, I do find it annoying the way he's sort of been mythologized into being like other world. Well, Griffin, you'll see the next section on my thing says correcting the Kubrick myth. There we go. And is which i would like to talk about watching fear and desire where you're like this is a guy who just like gets in over his head and fucks up and can't figure out

how to make a good movie and so much of him not doing press being quote-unquote reclusive which just means that he wasn't like going on the dick the Dick Cavett show. Sure. But, I mean, also, he did press and was fairly accessible up to around now. Yeah. Now is when he starts to stop really doing interviews and stuff. And this movie might have been part of it. But it's that thing when people talk, like, people who are friends with Terrence Malick, and they're like, he's not reclusive. He just doesn't like talking to the press.

He's a little reclusive. Right. But, yes. But, similarly, both of those guys, the mythologies around them become around them become this is a huge problem that happens with mythologizing and kubrick is someone that even when he died it was such he was such a mystery to the public yeah and this give and then like as i sort of outlined here and we can talk about like this idea that you know you has been mentioned once or twice not not by you guys, on earlier episodes, that like, oh, he just,

he's just this maniac. He's controlling. He can't shoot on the street. He has to build New York City. It's like, well, the movie I just watched for the 100th time is entirely locations. All locations.

A couple sets, yeah. Four built sets. Barry Lyndon. Locations, obviously, a lot of them with some interiors perhaps dressed or changed. Full metal jacket obviously has this wonky kind of sense of British Vietnam. It's got the weird UK version. It's location. This idea that he's like this cloistered, like he can't breathe fresh air.

He has to create these worlds. That's just people that are like, well, 2001 is probably his most huge accomplishment. I love The Shining. And then Eyes Wide Shut is his last movie. So I look at those three films. I see a lot of interiors and a lot of sets. people that are like well 2001 is probably his most huge accomplishment i love the shining and then eyes wide shots his last movie so i look at those three films i see a lot of interiors and a lot of sets i made up my mind about who he is as a filmmaker it's like well every other movie in the middle there kind of dispels this notion i mean this is a a very loose movie this is a a wild and frenetic and chaotic movie by his standards.

By his standards. Yeah, by his standards. I don't know that I would call this movie wild. You would not call Clockwork Orange wild? I'd call it wild. Wild, I think wild is certainly an appropriate word. When you're swinging a handheld camera around, filming like a physical assault,

you're like, no, this is very orderly. This is very British and very proper. No, I didn't say it was orderly. I'm just saying this is in between 2001 and Barry Lynch. David also doesn't have a great reference for what proper British. No, I wouldn't know. But in between those two films, which are obviously immaculately designed, both in terms of the aesthetics, the sets, the camera,

this movie is very much not that. And it really pops the bubble on the idea that he's just like this creator of these false sets and everything has to be perfect and just so i mean i really i really think a lot of that is the eyes wide shut and full metal it's like the end of career thing of like oh now he really can't leave england and he's you know he's stretching reality in that he's making a vietnam movie in a new york movie without leaving and it overwrote a lot of what was actually true about it. And The Shining as well.

This American Rockies thing built in this. But it just sort of changed the perception of the earlier works, whereas what I think he's more interested in, you see it in this movie, but you see it in all the movies, really. I mean, certainly 2001. He's more interested in these perfect worlds that are broken by chaos.

He's not interested in perfect worlds that remain perfect. Even in Barry Lyndon, the sort of decline of the fortunes of these characters, he really loves, especially in Lolita as well, like, these characters that you start off

and everything is just so. Either in their lives or in the world they live in, and by the end, it's all thrown into chaos. And that's really more his thing than, like, everything just is its own perfect... i mean i this is literally the plot of eyes wide shut and my problem with him yes absolutely and my problem with what with the mythologizing also

is like i just think it gets boring to call him like cold and hermetic and like i feel like these are just like uh words people throw around that don't apply to most of his movies or whatever i wouldn't call him wild either though but i don't know maybe the idea that he was just like this genius with perfect judgment who built the world as he saw it in his mind was correct didn't talk to anybody and then died is uninteresting to me i think people love this idea where it's just like, he was blessed with the perfect sense of cinema, and he like, came down to earth, made his perfect movies, and then died. Right, right.

And I'm like, so much of our fucking podcast is about like, trying to figure out these fucking people who made these movies to some degree, not even necessarily psychoanalyzing them, but it's like, obviously tracking this within their career and their films being responses to their previous films what's going on in the world their own

life all this sort of shit and like the more people try to put kubrick in this like alien box the less interesting i find him i wonder how his career would be perceived if he'd made Napoleon or whatever, you know, the Napoleon movie. Like, if he had thrown a sort of more traditional biopic, massive epic into the later stage of his career, if that would have changed... Or the Aryan Papers is the other one. If he just made a

Holocaust movie. Like, rather than ending his career on, oh, and then he, like, drove the most famous couple alive insane with his you know many take matches the fact that that whole movie is about like secret society exactly and then he died and right divorce

you know like suspiciously close yeah it all sort of his overwritten like the sort of oh he just he hated actors like you know if he couldn't if he worked without act but it's like you look at the looseness and the freedom That he's giving Peter Sellers Malcolm McDowell

In this movie There's a looseness to his trust of actors In this middle period It did clip Malcolm's eyes And probably made him do that For like many days We'll get to that That's just part of the movie

We'll get to that Alex and I went to a drive-in last weekend It's been a long day together that for like many days. We'll get to that. That's just part of the movie. We'll get to that. But Alex did raise this good... Alex and I went to a drive-in last weekend. We did. It's been a long day together. Two, three-hour car rides just talking about things at depth.

But you did bring up this point where you're like, the two actors he gave primary roles to twice. He never worked with actors twice except for two examples in lead roles. Peter Sellers and Timothy Carey.

Two of the most... That's it? Material? Yeah. In terms of, like, leading... Obviously, there's lots of... Right, like Patrick McGee. There's lots of bit players.

But no, in terms of, like, people that would be, quote-unquote, on the poster. He never did the kind of Nolan or PTA thing. He had no company. Like, hey, Joaquin, like, come on back.

He had no company, and he certainly didn't have it in the last, you know, seven movies. But early on he did have this kind of sense of letting these two unpredictable performers come back for seconds right or in the case of sellers like for fourths and fifths and that to me is like when people don't realize that or they don't point that out it's just like oh yeah he hated actors like if

he hated actors why did he let peter sellers come back a second time just to fuck around and be crazy sure but there's a bit of it it is interesting because like 2001 has no movie stars in it obviously right but then post that i mean you could mcdowell is this well this is what this is the other thing we were saying is that like they are men who know how to comport themselves within a professional environment more than carrie and sellers perhaps but like mcdowell and nicholson are both like insane live wire behavioral uncontrollable actors as is to a lesser extent tom cruise right and ryan o'neill is a pain in the butt is a pain in the butt but less of that live wire actor less of the major movie star he worked with major movie stars

in everything but full metal jacket after strange love but but a lot of the caged animal. But he's a major movie star. He worked with major movie stars in everything but Full Metal Jacket after Strangelove. But a lot of the people he favored are famously then or now, like, well, he's just like a total maniac of an actor. D'Onofrio also kind of notoriously... And he's like just... It's interesting that he would often work with

major stars at the heights of their career. Yes. Right. I just think he liked this is the movie star version of the chaos. That's the thing. It was like, that's a guy who knew how to like control the chaos.

More than people have now given him credit for, especially post Eyes Wide Shut, which again is like taking, you know, Tom Cruise, he's a very chaotic, physical, exuberant performer at his best. I certainly can be. And he puts him, like, I justant performer at his best. I mean, certainly can be.

And he puts him, like, I just think that this sense of Kubrick has once again kind of been lost to time and is worth scrutinizing ever so slightly. Cruise's performance in Eyes Wide Shut, which we will discuss later, is unusual in the Cruise canon. It is, but no one's like, Tom Cruise is kind of like a boring low heart rate

actor. Especially now when things aren't that way. No, but people said that about his performance in that movie. Well, sure. I wouldn't agree. Whatever. You'll talk about it. But also the idea that it's like, oh, here's this guy who creates these

hermetic, controlled, airless ecosystems. This is Eyes Wide Shut. It is. No, I'm just saying, he did have a tendency to put wild animals into those ecosystems. The Shining and Eyes Wide Shut especially. And those are two of your three last films

that define basically the back third of your legacy. Right. It's hard for people to not be like, that's been over... Everything from these movies has been overwritten. Maybe he should have, like, you know, done some contracts, you know, Sister Act? He could have come in on that.

He should have done Sister Act. You know what I mean? He should have just sprinkled in some other stuff. Sister Act. Sister Act? A Sister Act? He could have come in on that. He should have done Sister Act. You know what I mean? He should just sprinkle in some other stuff. Sister Act. Sister Act? A Sister Act? Getting Even With Dad? We were just talking about that in the car.

We were talking about Getting Even With Dad. I had my own car ride with Alex Westbrook. It wasn't three hours each way. Very short. But we were talking Getting Even With Dad. Why did you talk about Getting Even With Dad? We were talking Macaulay. Yeah.

Why were we talking Macaulay? It's not worth going back. It's a shame Kubrick never got to do Macaulay. Macaulay could have. Why were we talking Macaulay? It's not worth going back. It's a shame Kubrick never got to do Macaulay. Macaulay could have been a David in an earlier version of AI if that had gotten up on rails a little bit earlier. Certainly true. But I just, again, like this is... Might have even been good.

This is a crucial thing that you guys are fortunately, I believe, able to do throughout the run of this series and already are to an extent. It's just like re-examining these not from the mythological perspective that they've taken on which i really opening the conversation back up and hopefully getting to sort of reappraise like you know to me the sort of like it is possible to view his body of work as a consistent rumination on a theme even though as is often pointed out he never really made the same

movie twice and almost every movie he made is a different genre right and as has often pointed out, he never really made the same movie twice. And almost every movie he made is a different genre. And as has been pointed out, almost all of his movies could be in the running for the number one greatest movie in their respective genre. The only thing I'll say, and it's loose, is that you could kind of argue that Strangelove 2001 and Clockwork Orange all have science fiction. Well, that's not even, I mean, that's in the Michelle Sima interview book that I have. I don't have that. Well, I pulled some quotes from it

and I brought it with me. That was just the Sims original. He says, I mean, I can pull that quote up. He says, like, you've kind of made this trilogy about man's grappling with the future.

Right, right. And I have quotes about that. Also, David, But that's what I'm saying. He's always on, He's always on these themes. It's not that, but no one would look at those movies in a superficial.

Griffin is pitching me up to a Toyota camera. Cause he's going to drag. I'm not going to drag you. I just want to push back on something. Oh, why you drag David? What? That shouldn't be the,

the one thing you say for the rest of this episode. We have multiple hours left to go. Oh, did I say that? I'll say, if I can just say one thing, no, I'm done. I you can expect alex and i do all the lifting you don't think that i just left it all on the table you don't think baby okay point it was original and you branded it as such but all right i'm ready to do it if i got him just throw the baton to ben i'm

gonna take the laptop box office game is in there. So that pod chair in the one room is pretty cool. Ben has his own notes. This is Ben's note pad. Top note. Okay, wait. No, I just want to say, and this is not the only thing I'm going to say. Go ahead.

But if I can say one thing right now. You can. People in the Fear and Desire Killer's Kiss episode were like, they sound bummed out that they have to do Kubrick, that we forced their hand. No energy. Is this going to be a slog? When we say people, we mean, you know,

some people on the Reddit that we maybe should just stop looking at. Our humble Redditors. Right, exactly. Yeah. But as you said, we were fucking tired that episode and stressed out and whatever. But the other thing was, like, I say in that episode, admittedly, which I think is a thing that people were like, oh, no, I was like, Kubrick, not one

of my guys. Admittedly, not one of my guys. I guess you say that right at the top of the mini. Right. Yeah. I will say watching and rewatching these movies, I'm like, oh, I like Kubrick a lot more than I think I do. And I think a lot of the reason why in my mind I don't think of myself as a Kubrick guy is because of how much I resent the mythology that's built around him and the attitude of quote-unquote Kubrick guys.

And you watch these films and just take them as movies. They are vibrant and bizarre and clumsy. They're not these perfect objects. They're awkward

and weird and inscrutable and mysterious and people are just like, yeah, they're just like these, you know, terrariums of filmmaking. But the mysterious shit also ends up like feeding this like every one of his movies was some mystery some dan brown so dark the kind of man mystery for us to solve i've got

the quote here okay this book that i've always had since i was a teenager french critic michelle cement simon i don't know don't don't quote me on my mispronunciation it would appear that you intended to make a trilogy about the future in your last three films have you thought about this there is no deliberate

pattern to the stories I have chosen to make into films about the only factor at work each time is that I try not to repeat myself since you can't be

systematic about finding a story to film I read anything so no he's just like I reject your hypothesis. Also, my next plan is to make a trilogy of films about Tetris, the game.

We think this narrative is too big for one film. Do you remember that? No. I don't know. It's some fucking pandemic variety headline that was like,

studio announces trilogy of Tetris movies and they were just calling their shot. Why not make it, is it five? There will be a Tetrology. Why not make it is it five there would be a tetralogy why not make it the Tetris tetralogy

would be the way to do it put it on the blank check slate you'll just get the right isn't that quadrilogy quadrilogy is not a real word I believe quadrilogy is in the encyclopedia next to a picture of the alien quadrilogy box it is amazing how that box set

has ruined the minds of men like us of course the quadrilogy quadrilogy box it is amazing how that box set has ruined the minds of men like us of course the quadrilogy the quadrilogy movies absolutely that word is valid forever because of whoever in the fox fucking home video department it's the uh it's the monorail man saying no but it is 100 as a conversation equals for religion equals movie yes i mean that's the thing because it was some guy was like, here we are in the alien tetralogy box set. And some exec was like, tetralogy?

Tetralogy sucks. Come on. Let's zazz that up. No, five would be pentology. Uh-huh. Well, then it's only four Tetris movies. Perfectly reasonable. Anyway, there's your quote.

Let's move on to, what's the next line item in your... Well, look. I just want to talk about two... You've already brought... I'm not rushing them. I'm wondering. I'm actually genuinely interested. Are you dragging?

You've already backed us into one of these, so we're right there. Are you rushing or dragging? There's two important things, one of which you just brought up, which is either in the surface or under the surface

of, I think, almost every Kubrick movie, and certainly here, it's the surface, and you just mentioned it, is this recurring theme he's always grappling with of technology

or weaponized machinery aiding man in its ongoing inevitable downfall. Uh-huh. This is, in some way or another, just this distrust

of technology or this looking at innovations and the reminder that man would be smart to not try to innovate further but to control

themselves within. Right? Like, Doctor Strangelove in 2001 and this movie are very literal examples of that theme for sure.

They're the most films he made. It's like, ostensibly, the only quote-unquote genre that he did multiple times. And it's the very nature

of just, like, self-destruction. What was the difference between the firing squad at the end of Paths of Glory and the sniper at the end of Paths of Glory and the sniper at the end of Full Metal Jacket?

That's an advancement of a gun. Yes. It's designed to deliver a bullet. One of them, you have to line people up and look them in the eye and the other one,

you can just be a complete absent figure and kill someone from half a mile away. And this is him looking at the development of something as simple as a gun,

which, of course, you see in its rudimentary musket form in Barry Lyndon and being like, the more we innovate this stupid thing as a gun, which, of course, you see in its rudimentary musket form in Barry Lyndon, and being like, the more we innovate this stupid thing called a gun, the easier and less human the act of killing someone in combat becomes. And obviously, the end of Paths of Glory is very human, devastatingly human.

And the sniper at the end of Full Metal Jacket is just random, arbitrary, and violent. And that's this sort of progression that he looks at throughout the 20th century of just mankind doing everything they can to hasten their own destruction. And the Ludovico technique in this movie is just that writ large, which is why I love this movie so much, is it takes all of his themes and makes them basically the main course in one film. So just the final thing on the technology aspect, he has a quote here from this book as well.

Modern science seems to be very dangerous because it has given us the power to destroy ourselves before we know how to handle it. On the other hand, it is foolish to blame science for discoveries. And in any case, we cannot control science. The people. So he's basically just like,

his attitude is just like, look, we're going to invent things we don't know how to control and that's going to be a huge problem for us. People shouldn't do that. But they're going to

because that's the way progress works. And this movie's all about the folly of trying to control human nature but even you can't. Griffin, you just backed me right up into the other point.

There we go. Because that is what every one of Kubrick's movies is about. I believe and I'm quite certain. Every one of his movies is about the inherent flaws of the human character and the inability of man or mankind to not give in to their instincts of being unpredictable and therefore leading yourself into destruction. Right?

Instincts such as fear and desire? Fear and desire is that because it's examining the cowardice of people. I was saying the literal. Yes, but also, I mean, but, you know, Killer's Kiss, this kind of, like,

boxer's lament. Fear and Desire, are they in Inside Out? Yeah, absolutely. In the what? Fear and Inside Out. Well, Fear actually is in Inside Out.

Oh, you're listing the characters in Inside Out. Desire was played by Creed Bratton. You look at, like, even the, like, you know at even the boxer in Killer's Kiss up to Eyes Wide Shut. The central theme in all these movies

is about the morality of the plot driving the characters to a decision where they either have to act in the spirit of free will or give themselves over to making a huge mistake, which is what Alex does in this movie in the way that Hal malfunctions and says it must be human error.

A computer can never be perfect because it's still built by a man. Yeah, I mean, obviously, 2001 does not endeavor to tell you why Hal goes crazy.

But Hal offers the explanation that he says maybe it's human error. It's a programming error. But I've just always liked it as like Hal just, his continued existence eventually comes to like people.

I think he just spent too much time on Twitter. That's what it is. He got red pill. He got poster disease. He got brain worms. But if you look at that in the context of his other movies, like his point of view is like, of course, there was a human error. There's always a human error. What's the human error in the Ludovico technique?

It's that you can never count on this programming being undone. What's the human error in Bill in Eyes Wide Shut? It's that you can never count on this programming being undone. What's the human error in Bill in Eyes Wide Shut? It's that he's just too damn curious. He can't leave well enough alone. What's the human error in, you know, Barry Lyndon? It's that he just can't quit

while he's ahead. Every one of these movies is about someone... Barry Lyndon is like Uncut Gems, but twice as long, where you're just like, Barry? And he's like...

And pastoral. Yeah, right, right. I don't think it's... I'm not sure it's like that necessarily, but I see what you're just like, Barry? And he's like... And pastoral. Yeah, right, right. I don't think it's... I'm not sure it's like that necessarily, but I see what you're saying. Barry just keeps... Like you said, there are just moments in Barry Lyndon

where you're like, okay now, Barry. You got out of that scrape. You make me realize... Make it easy. Barry Lyndon's a bit of a ghillie. Barry? Barry?

But you see what I'm saying? Sorry. Bill in Eyes Wide Shut is more of like a Target lady. Yeah. You see what I'm saying? Bill in Eyes Wide Shut is more of like a target lady. Yeah. You see what I'm saying, though? This theme of the fact that his belief in human... And you see this basically in the bones of AI.

Is that nothing touched by man can ever not fail. My favorite theme of AI, right. Is that if mankind and the brain of man and the spirit of man is ever given a chance, they will somehow fuck it up. Yeah suck that's that temptation that's lolita that's spartacus even to an extent even though that's like obviously an asterisk of a movie in terms of his development of it like no but like yeah he's attracted to this theme over and over that it's like i believe man is capable of many great things the one thing i believe they are definitely capable of is failure and making the wrong decision.

Because, like, in Spartacus, a lot of it is them being like, we built this Roman society that functions, and a lot of the movie is these senators being like, why do we just want to be powerful instead, right? Like, why can't we help, like, just wanting, you know, tending towards tyranny at the end of it? And, like, with AI, I mean, we've ranted about AI, although we could probably just do another AI episode.

Yeah, maybe we should. I mean, it's such a good movie. That'd be fun. It's just, like, the idea of, like, humans being, like, what do robots not have? I know. They don't love. We love.

Love is great. This robot should love. And the robot is like, I love. Ah, God, this is so existentially crushing. It's the, like, fucking consciousness is a prison thing, but also, like, intellect and the idea of intellect, the idea that we perceive ourselves to be, like, smart and evolved and look at what we built

and look at how far we've come as opposed to these other fucking animals. We are clearly superior. And you're like, those animals, like, there is an order, there is a structure, basically, to how they behave. And we, like, pat ourselves on the back for like Jamba Juice

but then we're just like none of this makes sense and we're fucking everything up all the time 2001 ends with Jamba Juice right? it does that's what all the colors

the colors are the different varieties of Jamba Juice it's full of juice strawberry surf riding but this is like again like what I love about this movie

above all his others is that it takes all the themes of his other movies before and after and literalizes them into the actions of the character and the actions done to the character. I like that it has a big fiberglass dick. That's what I like about it the most.

Well, hold on. Put a pin in that. Okay. Alex, what's next on your document? Well, what's next on my document is really digging into the movie of Clockwork Orange. The rest of it gets into issues more. I feel like, you know, I want to just set up the Kubrick-ness of this.

Sure. And give Ben the opportunity to... To you, Alex? Yeah, Ben is drinking a glass of milk. And a huge glass of milk. Yeah, none of you

touched your drugged milk. I'm sipping some tea, which, David, is a beverage that's incredibly popular in British culture. Very true. Chai, as Alex calls it.

Yeah. Kubrick's kind popular in British culture. Very true. Chai, as Alex calls it. Yeah. Kubrick's kind of... Go on. This movie is like a punk... It's pre-punk. It is. It's a very urtac.

But you see, even in its supposed, again, no one here can speak to this banishment in England from the 70s, it does coincide very nicely

with the appearance of fairly radical British cultural shifts, but also, as a 71 movie, this movie just looks like the appearance of fairly radical British cultural shifts, but also as a 71 movie, like this movie just looks like the worst of 80s England somehow. Here's a question for you guys that kept on running through my brain while watching this movie, while re-watching this film. How would you describe the aesthetic of this film? Brutalist?

Yeah, I would just say dystopian. And I feel like people's idea of a dystopstopian society they're just picturing this movie they're like four or five contradictory aesthetics i think coexisting in this movie where i'm like i don't even know how to synthesize i guess like right the interiors especially the fancy houses are the sort of like mid-century moderny or like white like and there's all kinds of but he goes britain not to speak of a country that i grew up in i'm sorry what but in the 60s britain embraced brutalist architecture i would say probably more than some countries so you grew up like yeah so now he's just saying he grew up in the 60s this is just a bit i did not grow up in the 60s he's trying to last night in soho us yeah he's playing

he fucking took a nap and woke up in the 60s Swinging Let's go downtown Like I feel like now that brutalism Is regarded almost Brutally? No I mean now there are people who are like That was a legitimate movement in architecture And like there's brutalist art And architecture that should be

You know landmarked And you can't destroy it even though like at the time People were like oh these ugly concrete blocks Like what is the world coming to Now Britain has like you can't destroy it even though like at the time people were like oh these ugly concrete blocks like sure what is the world coming to now britain has like you can walk around england and find some of the most amazing brutalist architecture and be like look this thing is incredible to look at but it all just looks like clockwork orange to me yeah you see it's got a bit of a clock but also like the aesthetic is it's also like it now looks like what we think of is kind of post-cold war like i remember a couple years ago, I went to Bratislava

and everything there just looked like clockwork orange. It's very influenced fashion-wise by mod. Feels like kind of proto-New Wave. But you're right. There's this pre-punk element to it. There's like this pre- rave culture element to it.

You know? There's this pulling from biker gang culture, too. It's right in between, like, the leather biker boys and their gangs and like, you know, a roving street gang of thugs in the late 70s. It's just synthesizing so many different things into

like a mashup that I don't even know how to quantify. But then what's inside? But then the contradiction that I love about Kubrick as a filmmaker and about this movie and Alice as a character is all of that is true. But as David said, like, what is inside of that? You have exactly what you're describing. And inside of it is beautiful mid-century homes. Inside of that is a deep, like a love of Ludwig van.

Inside of that is this sense of class and culture that is nestled within a rotting society. And that to me is just this beautiful kind of, you know, up, down, black, white version of the movie where it's like, you walk out of these horrible housing tracks and you drive a little bit and you're in these just like stunning rural homes because society has gone to seed.

But there's some people hanging on to the nice version of society just outside the city limits but everything within the city is like you know fucked beyond repair you see the state of Alex's lobby they believe in the system still and they still like march around and tap their fucking shoes and

shit well and salute I mean but like he's mocking but it's also it's yeah he's just he's mocking the system and he also, it's, yeah. He's just, he's mocking the system and he like scoffs at authority. And those are all punk ass things. But as much as you're mocking it, there's also an element of like,

what you're saying, Alex, there's this sort of odd way in which they're upholding it in the way that like kids pretend to be cowboys. You know? So one of the most famous, what I think is also interesting about everything you're saying is one of the most famous, what I think is also interesting about everything you're saying

is one of the most famous sequences is that, you know, by the water, right? There's that estate, the concrete estate, where it's by the water. Really jumping around. I'm not jumping around. Look, this.

This location, right? They use it, I feel like, a couple times. It's where he beats up the other Droogs. Yes. Right? And it's like, that to me, I understand completely why Kubrick found it appealing because it's like, that to me, I understand completely why Kubrick found it appealing

because it's like, it does look post-apocalyptic almost, right? Or dystopian, whatever you want to call it. But then there's the water element that like, suggests that someone was like,

well, this could still be naturally beautiful and it makes it even creepier to me. And that's a real, that's the Thames me to stay. It's like a real place.

And that's why, again, it's like, oh God, he, you know, he built these sets. It's like, no, look at this movie. This is the opposite of place. And that's why, again, it's like, oh, God, he built these sets. It's like, no, look at this movie.

This is the opposite of all of those ideas. The four sets, by the way, he mentions that he built. It's in my dossier. All right, well, then I won't read it. Good. Because we'll get there when we get there. We'll get there when we get there. But no, just like that movement at the time, right, is like, well, we can plan for everything.

Like, we can build the perfect tower block. Ben's just smirking at me. I thought of a good joke. Oh, go ahead. Because you have a dossier, and Alex brought his own dossier, so it's a dossier kind of going on right now. A dossie dossier?

Dossie dossier. There's something very funny to me about the idea of building these estates and being like problem solved right you've got your water houses over there here's a nice walkway everything you might want to complain about this exactly formula you know boxes checked and you look at it and you're like well this is kind of like chilling that's a literalization of what i love about all these films like it's chilling to kubrick to think that people were like well we made the bomb we have a system to control it problem solved right nothing could go wrong yeah and it's

chilling for him to be like well we built the spaceships and we have a computer running them problem solved and the ludicrous technique is the best version of that where it's it feels like something a kid would come up with it's like like, well, what if you just punched someone in the stomach any time they saw boobs, and then eventually, any time they saw boobs in real life, they would double over. And then he's like... It feels like the logic of a fight.

But what's incredible is then his whole thing of the fallibility of man is, well, what shoes are you wearing when you're punching him? Well, what happens if he sees someone with those shoes on again? I don't know. I guess he'd go insane. I guess he wouldn't like that. Yeah, sure. Well, have you thought about that? No, not really. And that's what he finds so frustrating, I think, about the flaws of man as an organism that is just so irresistible as he revisits it in 10 different genres across his career is that it's always the same thing.

It's just him looking at the behavior of man and going, these fucking animals can't figure it out. Everything they do is going to lead to their ruin. And I'm the only person who sees this clearly. And I love that about him. Have you ever seen Stanley Kubrick's boxes? No, but you guys are doing the episode on Color Me Kubrick, David said, right? I did not say that. I'll watch that.

I was trying to remember last night, what was Stanley Kubrick's boxes? Like a documentary about his treasure chest or something? It's like a documentary short that I think John Ronson did. It was like, you know, Julio's favorite shapes. It's just Stanley Kubrick being like, this is a great box right here.

This is like a conveyor belt. It's just Stanley Kubrick being like, this is a great box right here. There's like a conveyor belt. It's like Orson Welles' sketchbook where he weirdly had like a six-episode TV show where he just drew pictures and talked about them. Sounds fun. Kubrick had this TV show where he was... It sounds like good vibes. Opened a magic box.

It was John Ronson. Yeah. It was like going through his archives after he died. All his memorabilia. Right. And all the things prepared for napoleon is that watchable because it sounds like it could be boring just him being like oh and here's some pictures that you know like it could you know like you got to dramatize you're

saying it's like geraldo's tomb well there's he found nothing right all right guys we're going to open kubrick's box So it turns out there's nothing inside. I remember being semi-watchable, but the way I found out about it at first, I don't know why I end up on this website, but the company who made his physical boxes was so proud of their mention in the documentary that they posted a clip on their website. Why were you on a box company's website?

This is my question. I'm like, how did I end up there? Box shopping? But I was like, oh, there's a documentary about his friend. Previously, the boxes were only used for shipping nails. Yeah. Yes. But he talked... One of my favorite Simpsons... I mean, just the box factory in the Simpsons. The density

of that... It's a great segment. We only make boxes for shipping nails. Every product that needs to be shipped has its own box factory. People should know that like 25% of being friends with Alex is receiving Simpsons quotes or gifts via text. And then the next time you see him in person going, why didn't you give me credit for that? I think David gets

a lot more of those than maybe you do because he's a more reliable responder but I do love a good Simpsons reference but the box factory. The box factory is just great.

So you're just online checking out some box companies. I don't know why I'm on this fucking website. The final button of the guy of, you know, what is it the Simpsons, like the line of like,

well you could end up being like a schmo working in a box factory and he's in the other building and's like i heard that it kills me what were you i don't remember why i don't remember why but this clip right the guy is talking about and i was just like oh is the documentary literally this and it's like no it's mostly about the contents of the boxes sure but there is this section where they talk about the boxes themselves. Right. And this guy is like, Stanley came to us with very specific demands. We made him hundreds of boxes before he agreed.

David, truly. And he's just like, Stanley came to us with a 40 page document. And the whole thing was just like, he had never found a box that truly satisfied him. And he was like, we went back through so many iterations of... I sympathize. Yeah, and he was just like, look, either the lid is too tight and when I tug it, it doesn't come off, the whole box gets lifted,

or it's too loose and it falls off like this. And the guy's talking about just the back and forth to get the exact right snug fit on the lid. And he goes like a monster debating the micron of cod. He uses the term micron of

card to get the right thickness. These are very technical box terms. Right. Right. But these are stuff like this in the presence of this movie I haven't seen. This has done more damage to his reputation than anything has than anything right I agree now this is my point

this is the point I'm trying to make the takeaway from that is just like oh insane obsessive perfectionist needs to control the entire world around him this and that right my my current perspective on it is more of the like what you're saying

Kubrick driven crazy by people who don't think about. Well, what happens if right? If I get this, if I get this box and then there's a leak in my roof, everything inside is going to be ruined. Right. Because your box is faulty. I think Kubrick is someone who like thought so thoroughly about everything. You guys should do a patron episode on the box. Get a box from this company and just kind of

review it. That sounds pretty fun. Sit here, unpack the box. I want to see what Micron of Cards is. So it's an unboxing a box video.

But I feel like that's two minutes and then it's sort of like, well, it's a challenge. Wait, okay, so bonus episodes. Color Me Kubrick. Color Me Kubrick.

Second AI, AI Hyper AI. Right. Stanley Kubrick's box is the documentary. The box and unboxing. What if we watch, what if we put a DVD of Richard Kelly's The Box into a box? Boxing the box.

When you finally run out of talking to the walk, you can do boxing the box. Not when we run out. We're creating a new franchise, the first annual Boxing the Box. What if we watch AI backwards and call it IA? Well, now we have seven patreon bonuses for kubrick um the man the man would approve let me give you some dossier unless you have i'm ready to talk about the actual movie of a clockwork orange everything else will

come up organically the only other things i want to i feel like i should mention from the dossier that are sort of like pre-movie is like napoleon is the thing he thinks about for a while post 2001 like that this is a big so soon after 2001 though this is three years three years isn't that soon it's pretty fast by the measure of i mean but this was a big napoleon disruption right i think he was working also you know plotting napoleon pre-2001 like it's a long-running project it spanned a long time um and he's fascinated by napoleon it just feels so exciting to be like you just made 2001 the most grand opulent visionary film that imagines an entire civilization and a fucking blockbuster and it was a hit yes and it made money and people loved it and the counterculture embraced it what do you want to do i guess i should just

make this punk movie about a guy who beats people up and listens to beetculture embraced it. What do you want to do? I guess I should just make this punk movie about a guy who beats people up and listens to Beethoven and it'll be done in two years. And people are like, that sounds fine.

What will it be rated? X. Will people hate it? Actually, it'll be nominated for Best Picture. I have to, I regret,

it's like, okay, I guess to go knock that one out after 2001. Wild that A Clockwork Orange was nominated for Best Picture in 2001 wasn't.

Yeah. It's a better film. Well, that's debatable. I mean, they're, you know, like an 11 out of 10 and a 10 out of 10, but that is

that's the wild statistic. I also think it's bizarre that McDowell wasn't nominated. I kind of don't know how you get this movie. There's just no way to appreciate a performance

like this in 71. I guess that's true, but like, I don't know how you give this movie picture and director and not go like, well, obviously this guy at the center. Because people were just like, he's just some guy. Because of the Kubrick thing.

I think it's just like, well... They discredit the actors. He found some guy. It's a puppet. If you haven't seen If, you're not bringing any context to McDowell in Hollywood. I mean, it's a fairly loaded year. It's Hackman and French Connection.

Good performance. Peter Finch in Sunday Bloody Sunday's Hackman and French Connection. Good performance. Peter Finch and Sunday Bloody Sunday, which is actually a great performance. Good performance. George C. Scott and the Hospital, which is a big George C. Scott. He was like, don't you even fucking nominate me!

I'll kill you! Topol and Fiddler on the Roof filled the fuck out of that one. And then Walter Matthau and Koch, which is not a movie I've seen. I like how you say this is a loaded year and then offer three just non-existent movies and performances all right the hospital is not non-existent and george c scott is movie is non-existent no it isn't and george c scott in that movie is like a 1 billion out of 10 oscar

who directed the hospital don't look at it wrote it it's a shayefsky i'm not saying who wrote the hospital no but that's the thing with shayefsky movies it's shayefsky yes it is shayefsky wrote it it's a shayefsky i'm not saying who wrote the hospital no but that's the thing with shayefsky movies it's shayefsky no no yes it is shayefsky is an o-turbo who directed network so you knew that one but it's called shayefsky's network but sydney lumet is like you don't know who directed the hospital do you arthur hiller that was giving my fucking guess i wish i had the courage to say that doesn't exist't exist. That is bullshit. If that movie played tomorrow at Walter Reed, there would be six people there. Well, wait, that's not a good measurement of anything. At this point, 50 years hence.

Wait, no, no, no. Oscar voting 50 years ago should not be measured by what? I'm not saying it didn't exist. Don't Twitter rascals show up to a 2022. I'm not saying it didn't exist at the time. I'm saying the cultural legacy of that. I'm saying at the time it existed. I'm talking, I'm saying now. You't exist at the time. I'm saying the cultural legacy of that is still around the room. I'm saying at the time it existed.

I'm talking, I'm saying now. You can't hold this up. Now if we redid the Oscars, yes, they would be different. Gotta get McDowell in there. Walter Matthau in Koch to me is the soft one there, but it's Walter Matthau. Yeah, I also bet if I saw Koch,

it would fucking rip. It's probably pretty good. It's probably among the top five best Walter Matthau performances, but this is this is the performance this is here's my point more on this and then we can move like clockwork orange that's it's it's french connection fiddle on the roof last picture show nicholas and alexandra is kind of the forgotten movie of those five best picture nominees but those are three you know heavyweights

then you look at the fucking 2001 year that garbage do you want to you want to hear about this we're probably already debated it. So 2001, it's what? It's a beautiful mind fellowship of the ring. No, listen to this. It's, okay. And none of these are bad movies, in my opinion.

But it's Oliver, Funny Girl, The Lion in Winter, Rachel, Rachel, and Romeo and Juliet. Yeah, no, that's a shitty year. Yeah, it's like one of those things where you couldn't squeeze 2001 in here? Like, what the hell is going on? And then three years later,

they're like, Clockwork Orange, and people are like, is this movie too violent to exist? And the Oscars are like, eh, best picture. You can't throw it in there. Yeah, well. I'm just saying.

It's just a stunning pivot. It may also be partly just 2001's legacy. Yeah, sure. Because they were like, well, fuck. That's the other thing. I mean, you talk about, like, 2001 getting reclaimed by the counterculture and whatever. That movie just reclaimed immediately. That's what I'm saying.

But just the tail on it was so immediate and so long. Whereas this is just, and then it's like, well, you made the Best Picture nominated X-rated band film with all this. What do you want to do? It's like, I guess I'll have to make a movie by candlelight. I'm afraid I have no choice. Make a have no choice tri-corner hat motherfucker to make a three-hour movie about just like a foolish loser who scams his way into upper crust society and it'll all be lit by candles and they're like best picture they're like yeah great go for it that sounds like a reasonable you know rebound from this from this violent movie um don't talk shit about bar. That's my boy. Look, we're getting there.

Ben reacted very strongly to Barry. He turned to me like 10 minutes in and went, I'm very excited for this. Those are my people on screen. You mean Irish liars? Barry's name out your mouth, David.

Don't you dare. He's an Irish liar. I love the guy. So is Ben. Sometimes people have to let that guy get by. I know. All right? don't you dare he's an irish liar i love the guy so is ben all right not easy out there meanwhile ben judgment free zone should mention that ben only has one leg now for reasons unknown peg leg ben now look i'll just say about napoleon there's a lot that jj's putting the dossier here but it's just too much. You're talking about Cary Fukunaga's Napoleon, right? A movie that will definitely be in that one. I'm sorry, Griffin, a miniseries.

Anytime Kubrick talks about it in interviews, you're like, well, of course this never happened. Because he's like, so I've read 700 books. We're hoping to stage some of the battles like in the actual locations. And I'm just like, even you at the top of post-2001 with MGM being like, we'll write the check. It does sound impossible what he wants to do.

It's crazy that he made it that complicated. Because what? Like, Jared Hess was able to make it for like, what, $200,000? And it was dynamite. Yeah, exactly. He threw some sticks of dynamite in there. Dynamite? You know, like, listen to this quote.

We intend to use a maximum of 40,000 infantry and 10,000 cavalry for the big battles. So we're going to need to find a country that's going to hire out its own armed forces. He's just looking at Bondarchuk's War and Peace, right? He's just looking at that and being like, I could do this. And like, of course, what studios are looking at is like- When was that movie?

When was War and Peace? Was that 60? Yeah, it's in the 60s, right? It has to be. I think it's late 60s. 67. So he saw that and was like, God, that'd be fun. it's in the 60s, right? It has to be. I think it's late 60s. Uh, 67. So he saw that and was like, God,

that'd be fun. But that's the whole thing. Where studios are looking at movies like that and like Waterloo, the sort of like late 60s, you know,

and they're like, these things are less and less sexy and so expensive. Like, we can't underwrite that. And he's like, if I could just find a country.

I just, he's like calling me there and he's like, hey, do you have like 10,000 cavalry? Are they for hire? I will bring the costumes. Don't worry.

But I just need them all to show up in the same place at the same time. Some of the countries they reached out to. France, Italy, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Romania. How do you call an entire country? I don't know. Look up the prime minister in the yellow pages. This War and Peace movie was produced by Russia.

Because Russia was like, we should have a fucking big epic. And they were like, we'll just make a 10-hour movie that's literally every page of War and Peace, and we will put a 5,000-person army in front of the camera. But that's what he was jealous of, was he was like, why can't I get that kind of support? Bob Gaffney

has this quote where he was like, it was all figured out. We were going to need 200,000 gallons of blood. Things like that had been itemized. For us to stage all these battles, we're going to need this many horses. And then there's a certain point at which MGM is like, we're not fucking doing this.

Jack Nicholson was going to play Napoleon, obviously. Of course. That's the funniest thing about him. He's like, all that meticulous play. ridiculous he's like who do you want for napoleon i don't know jack's pretty good right he's kind of like short and angry he's got kind of that energy jack nicholson does not scream france to me like his face does that hold on let me get this hand out of my tummy pocket hey josephine what say you and i skedaddle this waterloo thing i'm never gonna get over it uh and he even as he starts working on clockwork orange he even like said to anthony burgess like hey do you want like to take a swing at napoleon like you know like

while he's working on this movie yeah so like he, like, he can't fucking stop talking about Napoleon the whole time. No, and then Burgess's next book's about Napoleon. Yes, it's called Napoleon Symphony, a novel in four movement. Yeah. I like that there's these books, like Terry Southern's Blue Movie,

where people are like, I worked with Kubrick. I should just write a book about what it was like to work with that guy, and it'll be a novel. Are you guys doing a Blue Movie episode? Yeah, we're adding that as another bonus. Can I give a second

on context? It could be a Wednesday. No one responded like they knew what I was talking about. Go on. Terry Southern wrote Dr. Strangelove.

Yes. And he worked on Lolita and he worked, right? He worked on a bunch of, yeah, whatever. It's not interesting in the book.

I just read it. I just read it recently. But he basically had a conversation at one point with Kubrickrick that is a kernel of eyes wide shut why can't they make an erotic film that looks like an a that looks like a film why do these films why can't we make pornography that is right like produced in the way of obviously kubrick does that you know 30 years later in some ways terry southern writes a novel about a filmmaker trying to make a movie that is a pornography film that is a film and it's fine yeah but it's another thing where someone's like you know kubrick says something to me i think i've got a novel about a filmmaker trying to make a movie that is a pornography film that is a film. And it's fine. Yeah.

But it's another thing where someone's like, you know, Kubrick said something to me. I think I've got a novel in what that guy was thinking about. I was reading that when Burgess adapted The Clockwork Orange as a play with music, there was a point where a Stanley Kubrick character came on singing Singing in the Rain. Sure. He had an actor dressed like Stanley Kubrick with an umbrella singing Singing in the Rain, and they beat the shit out of him on stage. in the Rain. Sure. Get an actor dressed like Stanley Kubrick with an umbrella, like Singing Singing in the Rain,

and they beat the shit out of him on stage. No, it's fun. Like, it is funny that all these, whenever he adapted someone's work, they sort of were, like, simultaneously enraged and obsessed with him in the wake. Have you guys read A Clockwork Orange

by Anthony Bird? I just reread it. I reread it just a few weeks ago. In fact, my copy's right here next to Ben, who requested to borrow it. Ben asked for someone to bring a copy. Ben, you're borrowing it. You're planning on reading it.

No, I've read it before. You guys have read it in high school. I read it in high school, too. It's short. Yeah, it took me just a few days just now to reread. It's shockingly similar. My Penguin Classics had a glass of milk on the cover, and I thought that was so cool.

Dude, we were just talking about this. There's so many fucking cover designs for this book. Because it's like, you know, it's a cool book. I have this canvas bag. Sure. That's like the really famous, like, 70s. I didn't even see that back there. Bright colors.

The cartoon of Alex. I reread it for this. It's much like 2001, which is obviously kind of written concurrently as a book and a screenplay, but it's just, it is so similar to the movie. To the point that as much as I know this movie

backwards and forwards, reading the book, it was just like, just listening to, reading the script, or just listening to the movie with my eyes closed. It is so similar. The dialogue is,

it's just unbelievable how little he changed, which makes, and again, this is an important thing about Kubrick also, which I guess kind of now in the miniseries

is a great time to, you know, talk about it briefly, but like, he's such an adapter, right? None of his, nothing he did was an original.

No, he would be intrigued by some book or usually a book. Maybe the first, I forget if Killer's Kiss has any source material, but, you know, from... The Killing On, yes. Yeah, he's an adapter, and therefore, the sort of the grand most original visionary filmmaker

of the second half of the 20th century, all of his ideas, he finds ideas, and then he creates this visual version of them, which makes the things he changes really interesting. Right. Because that's where you really see, like, so he added the snake. That's interesting.

There's no snake in the book. What's up with that? And the things he changed just become, they really stand out when you know the movie well and you reread the book or read it because it's like, huh, so that's the thing. He felt the need to, he, okay, so that scene he didn't feel was necessary.

Because there's only like two or three scenes in the book that aren't in the movie. The book is really, really similar. Including the final chapter? Well, the final chapter won't get there. The final chapter's its own thing.

Yeah, we'll have to get there when we chronologically. We can get there now. Well, we can't get there now. No, we can't get there now. I refuse. So Anthony Burgess wrote that book. There's a lot of sort of legends

of Anthony Burgess like was supposedly told he was dying and wrote like five books in a year. And he says he wrote that book practically in a weekend or whatever. Who told him he was dying? A doctor. But this is, JJ makes this clear, it's kind of alleged.

It's disputed by some biographers. And they say like, eh, he kind of had a, he would tell tall tales and it's hard to tell if this is true. Blah, blah, blah, blah. He writes the book. But, you know, the Rolling Stones were the original people who wanted to make this book, right? Yes. Mick Jagger wanted to play Alex. Or Droogs themselves. Exactly.

Maybe five at a time. Ken Russell, who's very logical at the time, was planning on making this into it. So it's a known cinematic quantity, right, when Kubrick's getting it. It's not like some of these things, I feel like. They were like, if we can't get Lord of the Rings, we'll do this. Or was that the Beatles that wanted to make Lord of the Rings?

The Beatles wanted to make Lord of the Rings. I feel like there's some other thing the Rolling Stones wanted to... Right, but the Rolling Stones were always like, let's make this amazing. There was some other fantasy thing, whatever.

Maybe I'm just conflating it, but... Yeah, who knows? Yeah, I mean, I think Rod Stewart was going to make Eragon, right? As faces were going to... Go on, finish that thought. Yeah, what other 70s rockers...

I'll find the Eragon. Yeah, who was going... The birds were going to make Water Horse Legend of the Deep. As you say, Kubrick reads the book. All right. Kubrick reads the book. That was my kind of joke.

Throw some points. Yeah joke. Throw some points. Yeah, flip you some points. Kubrick reads the book and is like, I didn't have to do much. He did very little. He did very little. Yeah. And then, of course, the book has in Britain that the book has a 21st chapter that is a happy ending. The book has

three sections of seven chapters apiece. Right. If you read it at the time, it would have been two at seven and then one at six. Right.

Burgess has said there's supposed to be 21 chapters. It's supposed to reference like 21 being Pivotal, developmental, mature. But in America,

it was 20. But it had a happy ending and the american publisher was like that was a pal ntsc that was a pal ntsc joke by the way there you go uh and they tossed the final chapter and kubrick wrote it without the final chapter and just like well that's the book and he calls it the extra chapter he was like well this book ends with the absolute catastrophic events of what happens when man tries to control anything right perfect ending and anthony burge is like excuse me i wrote another chapter and kubrick's like talk to the hand kubrick was essentially like he actually invented the phrase talk to the hand and anthony burge is like huh

and he was like because the face ain't listening yeah he was like if i had read this before i i i expect a flurry of Kubrick memes of talk to the hand because the face ain't listening as subtitled dialogue. Jack and the bartender and the shining, how the monkey is the beginning of 2001. Hal and David playing chess, talk to the hand. Hal and Sim's playing

chess. The actual chapter's fascinating. We'll talk about it at the end. But Kubrick was basically like, I didn't know this existed. And at the time they brought it to me, I was almost adapting it. And I went, if I had known this had existed, I would have ignored it anyway.

He's fascinated by the syntax of the book, right? This sort of invented language that's in it. He's fascinated by the language. He says there's been very little experimentation with the form of film stories, except in avant-garde cinema, where unfortunately there's been very little experimentation with the form of film stories except in avant-garde cinema where unfortunately there's too little technique and expertise present to show very much.

That's the avant-garde cinema found dead in a ditch. Stan Pratt gets pissed on by Stanley Kubrick. Jumping off the Empire State Building. Well, of course, you know, you mentioned Warhol, but of course there's the unwatchable Warhol version of this book. I've never seen it.

It's called Vinyl. It's called Vinyl. Not to be confused. I didn't know that existed. Well, it's R.I.P. with the lightly inspired. I think it's literally... You're talking about movies that don't exist. David Zaslav is really raising the stakes

in terms of actually unexisting movies. He's coming for the hospital next. I think the Warhol Vinyl, which I just saw as a Clockwork Orange nut, is just, I think it's literally two shots of,

you know, like 25 minutes in duration. I might be misremembering the syntax of it, but it's like all Warhol movies unwatchable. Uh-huh. And just, you know,

a kind of semiotic exercise and like, what if a gang of people did violence? It's just that. Yeah. Basically. There might be some lifts

more from the book, but it's, it's, I mean, you'll do the, you'll do it on Patreon, obviously. that's another episode. Yeah. Basically. There might be some lifts more from the book, but it's, I mean, you'll do it on Patreon, obviously. Yeah, that's another episode. Commentary on Warhol's vinyl.

But it's an interesting adaptation, but again, it just shows that he was omnivorous in his taste and his consumption and anything for him was valid

as material, as a potential next project. He had no, he did not really discuss with Burgess before he adapted it, so. The rare solo writing credit. It is the rare written and directed by yeah much like ai later for spielberg this is

the rare solo writing and producing solo producing credit um that you know that is interesting yeah he did it all on this one which again is part of the legend but the wrong part of the legend and he cast malcolm mcdowell like without auditioning essentially. Right. Just kind of like, well, you see if, and you're like,

yeah, I mean, he's, he's the guy. Uh, and he just calls him up and is like, how would you play this character? And Malcolm McDowell was like,

Oh, okay. And like, that was it. Like it was, there was the contract was sent over. Like he's one of those guys. I mean,

we're talking about this in the nicholson shining discussion which will be coming in in future weeks but like at his best and circle back to opening conversation like he is in that weird eric roberts zone where it's like he does so much schlock where you just go like well knock my doubt whatever and then every once when he'll show up and you'll be like oh right he does still like have his fastball when he wants to like when he shows up in a real thing and actually wants to give a performance like what i don't think he's ever lazy or phones it in it's like he rises to the material of what he's given it's wild that he's fucking uh dr uh l Yeah, in the remakes.

Yeah. He's good in those. Yeah. I like him in those. He's a valid inheritor of the Donald Pleasance mantle. Absolutely. The kind of thing of like,

oh, this guy kind of has gravitas to spare, but he's also a schlock guy. I think Alex DeLarge ages into that. I also think it's a bad movie, but I think he's like one of the better parts of bombshell i think his murdoch is like weirdly good okay he's good in bombshell sure i mean that movie eats that movie sucks yeah but like the weird thing is like him popping up in like in good

company he's doing stuff like that where it's like and who's gonna play the wacky boss kind of the murdoch you know right right and then he'd be like, oh, gents. And you're like, oh, here's McDowell. He kind of feels like this guy could kill you. He's just such an electrifying performer in this movie. And in If, and in A Lucky Man, of course. But like, Under the Fence is so incredible. Who can go very big without really feeling like he's overacting.

This is the thing we were talking about with Nicholson. But it's just like, they seem to just have such energy and vitality that it doesn't feel like they're reaching out of their temperament or like pushing for something. Not at all. And that's why when people say, oh, he just, if he could have not had actors and had robots,

he would have been happy. It's like, look at who he wants. He wants these people that are like electrifyingly alive as performers that like vibrate as in front of the camera and he just loves that because he can control everything but he knows he can't do that he can't and he doesn't want to he wants to let these people do the work perhaps many many times but he wants to let these these live wires just spark in front of the camera and you look at this performance yeah and what he plays off of with all these other people and there's so much to say about the totally insane supporting cast of the camera and you look at this performance and what he plays off of with all these other people and there's so much to say

about the totally insane supporting cast of this movie and these wonderful British actors. But he's just bouncing off of these people, which is, again, that's the text of the movie. It's this guy,

this character, up against these older establishment fuddy-duddy types. It's him and Mr. Deltoid and it's him in the prison uh governor and it's just these stiff upper lip brits and then there's just this agent of chaos smashing against them and to kubrick that's like what's better than just watching chaos smash against order this is it this is what it's about this is what my entire life is about exploring kubrick

also says he thinks the audience identifies with alex on some unconscious level right like we perhaps have the same. I have a whole, there's a whole thing here. I want to just, the sympathy of Alex question as it exists for, you know,

50 plus years now. He compares him to Richard III, the Shakespeare character, where he's like, this is this grand monster in the play, obviously, but like we are somewhat sympathetic to him partly because it's just the pathos

and drama of this man. Well, it's because Spacey played him so him. Uh-huh. Partly because it's just the pathos and drama of this man. Well, that's because Spacey played him so well. Oh, God. Jesus Christ. I really related to him as like a young man. Of course. I mean, an aggressive, angry young man. This is like the movie.

And if you're... He's pretty bad. If you're coloring within the... He's a bad guy. If you're coloring within the rules of society, like we're taught to, and you get to watch a character who forsakes all of that, for me, it's like,

I can enjoy that sense of rebellion through the movie. I don't have to go out with my droogs and get my weapons. I can just watch this and be like, chaos is very appealing. I've gotten my fill of it on the couch. Right, right. The argument for so many a thing, like a video game or whatever. Right.

But like, to Ben's point, like, you know, I sort of feel like, and this is something I think is more or less under, under discussed for this movie. Like, to me, as, as. We're flipping a page. Yeah, well, you know, we're into the movie pages now. You know, the document's moving. It's moving. We're over half. You know, we're in the, we're into the movie pages now oh you know the document's moving it's moving we're in we're over half war you know we're in the we're in the back half of the document but still the first half of the show yeah okay well that's not true this movie i think and this was a huge inspiration in in when i was writing her smell like this movie to me has five

very clear acts of the film five acts that are that that are radically delineated in terms of how Alex acts. What the camera is doing in relation to him and the style of storytelling. I think it just changes. Give me the five acts. Well, the first act

is up through when he goes home. So it's sort of like an opening, you know, an overture of... And this is when... This is the only time in the movie that he's actually inherently evil.

Yes. He's just committing acts of violence. And this is 20 minutes time of the movie that he's actually inherently evil. Yes. He's just committing acts of violence. 20 minutes, 20 minutes or so. And if you're talking about like his behavior as a character,

it's just the opening night. It's the first night of the story because everything up until his imprisonment is two days. So the first two acts are day one and day two.

It's him with the milk bar up through coming home. And then the next part starts when he's at home and then, you know, morning with Mr. Deltoid.

So by that point, the camera has settled and his home life, even though his parents are out, is so static and so normal that the chaos

and the anarchy that we've been watching for the first act, at this point, you see the dichotomy here. He doesn't live in a gutter he has a bedroom with a maid bed

with belongings and stuff that he keeps that he's materialistic in a way that a real anarchist or punk would not be and that is this wonderful contradiction that Kubrick clearly is fascinated by well yeah and like one of the weirdest parts is when he silences the

other droog for making fun of the classical music. And you're like, dude, you were, you know, you can't walk in here being all high and mighty about how to behave with these guys. You know, he's like, be quiet. And you're like, well, you know, you guys all have been beating up all these people. You might want to think about getting a cane to hit Griffin with when certain bits You're telling You've been pushing me for weeks to come in You can hit me

The thing is I'm not always here If David wants to crack the cane when something is not to his liking in the way of interrupting Ode to Joy I'm just saying Alex shows that it can be done So again, let's talk about the movie The movie hasn't even begun yet in the way of interrupting Ode to Joy. Right. I'm just saying Alex shows that it can be done. Sure.

But that's like, okay, so again, let's talk about the movie. The movie hasn't even begun yet and the music is just already wailing. It's already a 10 out of 10, the electronic score. It's just,

it's just undeniable. It's incredible that this is how he starts this movie. It's Wendy Carlos, right? Yes. Who I was like, what a prolific, one of the most prolific and

important composers and i looked up the wendy carlos discography and it's like uh clark orange tron the shining and that's it right and i was like oh okay so i only consider right it's just like she's not out of the park three times i was like wow you know really an early electronic music composing pioneer and then i looked i was like there must be so many movies I'm not even you're like I forgot she scored best defense yeah but it's like

no it's just three right it's not like oh yeah there's 45 Tangerine Dream scores I've never heard right but they're still the best who ever did it

it's like no there's really just the three movies and each one is like indelibly iconic even though some you know Shining has very little music

but just before it even begins the first shot I mean what an iconic... It's just, you're already in masterpiece territory here. Like, just the positioning of his hat, like, and how it's, like,

lining up with, like, his eye. Again, it's just old and new. It's this future past, this, like, liminal space in between times where they're dressed in a very dystopian, bizarre way, but with these kind of hats that by the 70s

were not in fashion, even ironically. And the way he's talking is not in fashion in any way. Like, he has this, like, very old-fashioned way of talking. And vaguely invented way of talking. There's a good quote. Do you have the quote on the Zoom shot? I feel like a lot of what JJ pulled may be from

the same one. No, no, no. Hit me. Hit me. Go on. Again, oh, Kubrick, everything's a perfectionist. He, you know, can't leave anything to chance. Well, this is nonsense. Here's the interviewer saying, how do you prepare this opening Zoom shot? There was no special preparation. I find that, with very few exceptions,

it's important to save your cinematic ideas until you have rehearsed the scene in the actual place you're going to film it. No matter how carefully you have pre-planned a scene, when you actually come to the time of shooting and you have the actors on the set, having learned their lines, dressed in the right clothes, you have the benefit of knowing what you have already got on film, there's usually some adjustment that has to be made to the scene in order to achieve the best result. And I just love that he's not like, I know what I want before I

get there and the execution is just about getting it. And I love that his answer is like, look, you show up, you look at the set, you look at the clothes sometimes, you have to change them. It's fun to misunderstand that. I feel like we keep on going back. And this is one of the four built sets. We'll call them out. The milk bar is one of four.

The fiberglass furniture of the naked women is such specific and invented. They didn't find those. They made those. But the doing 100 takes thing is so much more about Finding the thing He couldn't think of That can only happen

In the moment Than it is about Waiting for them to perfect The thing he has in his head There's a lot of improvisation In the film The singing in the rain thing Is a Malcolm McDowell idea

Is that Yeah Is that confirmable Yes Do you want me to redo No no I know that this is A matter of public record Via McDowell

Right I never I didn't find an interview Where Kubrick says no. I know that this is a matter of public record via McDowell. Right. I didn't find an interview where Kubrick says that. No, because he doesn't give a lot of interviews. But he has this long interview here at the time. That would require looking at the script because it comes back. The reason that I doubt this is two things. One, McDowell loves to tell tall tales.

And I think over his 50 years of telling stories, he may have invented a few details. Two, this is one of the biggest changes of the book is that there's no singing in the rain in the book. So when Alex is identified by the writer, he's identified because, you know, it's like Columbo shit. He's just like, I thought you didn't have a phone. And the guy's like, why would you think we don't have a phone? It's all stuff like that. So the fact that one of the biggest changes to the book hinges upon this song makes me feel like, how could that have been spontaneous in the filming? Because that is now the way that the fulcrum of the identification

of Alex is handled in the end of the movie. It also could have been not spontaneous mid-take. That's what I wanted clarity on and I couldn't find it. Something created, suggested by McDowell. McDowell says created mid-take.

I mean, I can read you the quote. I believe that McDowell says that. I know, I know. I'm just, it's what I've got for you, which is basically that they had the script, but as you say, Griff, they would do the script and then they would be like, let's do other things, right? Try and find other things.

You know, he says like, for example, the sequence in the writer's house, the script called for everything that we do. Breaking the windows, throwing the bottles Did any pipes come through the windows or what did they break them with? Yeah, how else could you break a window? Bottles And during that sequence, Stanley says to him, can you dance?

And he said, of course And so I began to sing a singing in the rain And Stanley burst out laughing It was the first time in a week that something had happened he went to bournemouth studio telephone new york and purchased the rights to the music immediately so his telling is certainly so this story is great if true this really shows that kubrick is much more elastic than anybody has ever wanted to give him credit and here you go to complete the quote in a it's a great moment. I have to tell you that when we were filming the next scene

in the shooting script, the retribution scene, it was Stanley's idea to have me hum the same tune while I'm in my bath. So they threw out what was written. That suggests that this was all, you know, spontaneous.

Because in the book, in the book, it would be, in the book, it would be when he's downstairs having been brought in that he's then revealing things he already knows

about this house. So that would mean if true which I believe it could be just there's I couldn't really you know you have to only take

McDowell's word for it unless you see like the shooting script. That would mean that Kubrick then threw out entire pages of adaptation in favor of a spontaneous idea which could be true

or could not be but if it's true it's really interesting. And the kind of thing people assume he would never in a million, people assume that he would have McDowell shot on the spot for, for daring to go off script. The part for me that, that I just remain surprised by is that they were given the rights of the

song. Sure. I mean, maybe it was just like, hi, this is Stanley Kubrick. And they were like, Oh yeah.

You know? And like, it's like, I need the song. No, especially 2001 was great. I can was just like, hi, this is Stanley Kubrick. And they were like, oh. It's like, I need the song. And they were like, wow, 2001 was great. I can only imagine what magisterial and gentle film you're making now. Especially when they played the Gene Kelly version over the end credits. I'm just like, he must have been so outraged.

Kelly must have been like... Maybe not. Maybe Kelly was like... I don't know. He famously invented that as much as Kubrick invented talk to the hand. Right, Arsenio Riptamon. You remember in Invitation to the Dance where Gene Kelly does the Arsenio whoop silently and invents a new form of expression. There's also, there's a lot of other McDowell quotes about how difficult things could be. Being dunked in the water, he got pneumonia.

He says he flipped out. I mean, his head is underwater for over 60 seconds. It seems horrible. And he said he flipped out at Kubrick at one point because he's freezing. Well, we'll get to the water. I have big thoughts on the water dunking. I'm at the water now. No, but we're in Act 1. We're not yet at the water. We've got to back up.

We've got to slow down and back up. I arrange my notes chronologically that's great i the mcdowell's thing here that is interesting to me and i do think mcdowell is a bit of a mythologizer so you do have to take that with a grain of salt but like is that he says i did flip out at him in that moment right like we had a confrontation over it and then after that hubrick Kubrick just kind of walked away and things resumed. And he was like, he didn't like confrontation. So it would just kind of be

forgotten. But he says it was never quite the same after that. Like that there was tension that was just not really spoken of. I mean, that's the funny thing is like, obviously, he's a withdrawn introvert as a fellow. He's not a recluse.

He's not a weirdo. He's not a germaphobe. No, but he's just shy. Yes. But what I love about him, and we'll start getting into this as we move forward a little bit now, is this bizarre notion that he's humorless. That he's not humorless. No, not at all. But anyone who knows anything knows that.

But this has become one of these myths that gets repeated. I feel like we need to move on from the we're just dispelling the myths of kubrick because we're getting two more pages via the film clockwork orange and the various scenes within it okay so tell me about some scenes in a clockwork orange talk about the milk bar ben's in the bathroom well the the just like i mean again like there's really nothing to this opening act except for repeated series of attacks and sexual assaults. Yes. Done in the name of fun.

Right. And done basically with a smirk on your face that culminates with the singing in the rain scene. So then act two begins. When he goes home and it's dawn and he's walking up the sort of housing flats and the concrete hellscape. Then he goes in and, you know, the lobby is a wreck.

Weirdly, the graffiti on that poster is written in the book. flats and the concrete hellscape then he goes in and you know the lobby is a wreck uh weirdly the graffiti on that poster is meant is written in the book you think that's like this big production design conceit really suck it and see and all the other things written on there most of those things are like it's like oh this in the book it's described as like oh this greco-roman image that's been described the boners with phalluses drawn on yeah it's like it's all written in the book but at that point a Alex is no longer a villain. He's just a teenager at this point. I can't go to school.

I'm liable to miss more school. His corrections officer comes by. At this point, he's just a child with a bedroom. And this is now a totally different version of the character than who he has been in the beginning. McDowell arguably miscast simply

just age-wise i don't think he's miscast to be clear but it is cubric acknowledges like we just had to get over that well in the book he's in the book he's 15 he's 15 yes and obviously he's closer to 18 in the book right which is fine but then you know like the the sort of this is where the the christ allegory is introduced which kind of continues to pay off but again like you see alex with his Christ statues in the room, right? And this is just such a wonderful little sly nod to the way that truly evil

people really always view themselves as victims. Alex identifies with Christ because he views himself as a victim of the modern age, as he says. Already, he's like, society has gone to rot. There's no future for me this is again a very punk thing i'm just a victim like whatever i do that's bad is because society has left me no choice the world has failed me he's emo in that

way as kids are he is highly emo he is vindicated listen to classical music and they beat up a homeless guy and the homeless guy is like you you might as well. It's so shitty around here these days. That's his reaction. I have a friend. Stinking world with no law and order. I have a friend who works with teenagers mostly as like a

school psychologist. And he always says, I will not name him, but he always says like being a teenager should be legally admissible in court as an insanity defense sure which i just think about all the time but he's just like this is my like i have a degree in this i work with these people all the time there is just the thing of like what chemically is going on in those years in the way your brain is developing and redeveloping, it is just going so fucking out of control.

And you can have such strong convictions about what you're doing or feeling at any moment, but they're driven by, like, such insane adrenaline and everything. Yeah, your body is attacking your brain and vice versa for five years. There's something about this character and especially McDowell's performance of him where

it's like, and I guess it's the contrast between, I mean, what's interesting about this performance being kind of bifurcated because it's like so much more of his dialogue is in voiceover than it is in scene. Right? On camera. It sort of just issues declarations in scenes. On camera camera he exists so much as a physical presence and then he's yet you're hearing his voice the whole movie

inner mind sort of sort of yeah right and there's something so calm and confident yeah about his voiceover narration at the start as kubrick says in his thing about the identification that david was reading, he feels one of the reasons people identify with him is because he is, quote, completely honest in his first person narrative.

Perhaps even painfully so. So he just believes that like this is truly his inner thoughts. Can I try a take though? Yeah. I think he's a jerk. I think he sucks.

You think he's a big jerk? Yeah, I think he's rude. Well, what do you think Mr. Deltoid has to say when he comes around? What do you mean? Well, Mr. Deltoid feels he's a jerk. I think he sucks. You think he's a big jerk? Yeah, I think he's rude. Well, what do you think Mr. Deltoid has to say when he comes around? What do you mean? Well, Mr. Deltoid feels he's a jerk. Well, yeah. I guess I'm with Mr. Deltoid.

So you're kind of a Deltoid in this scenario. I'm sort of a big... You're saying you're a big Deltoid? I got a pick between Alex and Deltoid. Deltoid nasty, though. He drinks his teeth juice. But that's the kind of... I don't think he meant to drink the teeth juice.

I don't know. It's up to the age. He seems a little gross. He, that's the kind of, that's the kind of thing. I don't think he meant to drink the teeth juice. That's the kind of thing. I don't know, it's up to the face. He seems a little grossed out. He seems into it, kind of, as my reason. He goes, yum, yum, give me more. That's just like, how could anybody be like, well, Kubrick was humorless. And it's like, he had the guy drink the teeth juice.

I don't think Stanley Kubrick is, I don't think anyone here thinks that. No one here thinks he does. This is a knock on him. I know, I just, enough, let's stop litigating the, you know, the jerks. Come on, let's let's stop litigating the you know the jerks come on let's talk about the movie we are think about the think about like this the static shot of alex and deltoid sitting on the bed it's got to be like two two and a half minutes and this

comes after the the handheld chaos of the singing in the rain like at this point this storytelling approach and the visual language of how alex is framed is so different. This sped up sex, the threesome, really makes me laugh too. We'll get there in just a second. We can, the record store

just can't not be talked about. Sure. We have to talk about the pickup. That's a real location too? Yes, it's the basement of a drugstore. Yeah,

down in Chelsea. That's another thing where I'm like, the aesthetic of this movie is like, indescribable. Yeah, yeah,

yeah. Right. Didn't he pull out the 2001 soundtrack Well, it's just right there in pull out the 2001 well it's just it's just right there in the right that's what it is right remember that yeah that was one of those like you know teenage film you've never seen anything like it as a teen and also again it's like oh he's so serious like and it's just like but he's kind of like being like guys i made that movie putting my own soundtrack it's like michael bay referencing armageddon in transformers it's

exactly like that this is even cooler than armageddon in Transformers. It's exactly like that. This is even cooler than Armageddon. But yeah, just that set. And then again, one of the big changes is those girls in the book, he drugs them and kind of takes them home unwillingly. Whereas in the movie, it seems to be entirely... Pure charm. Right. Pure charm.

And again, this is just completely exciting. But the milk they're drinking has drugs in it, right? They are. I mean, the Molokka Plus. I just think that's not cool you can't do drugs wait what what about no drugs that was like my dream to go to a bar and just have choice of drugs i'm not thinking it's funny if i'm my reaction to this movie is like well he's breaking the law this guy should go to jail which drugs really makes you a Mr. Deltoid. Milk should be only milk and no drugs.

Say no to drugs. In the book, the detail about the milk is there's three different kinds. Right. You can pick your. I think he says that in the voiceover at the beginning. Well, I think. Does he denote the different types? I don't know if he does. Are we thinking like it's like growing up but down?

Well, so one's got mescaline. Sure. One's got amphetamines and the other one's just a fucking cocktail of goodness Ben looks happy yeah Ben looks thrilled I'll say this is the most effective anti-drug campaign I've ever seen you talk about putting drugs and milk I'm like no thank you

only drink drugs and milk yeah straight edge of shit so you laugh at the uh at the sped up scene uh I just think that scene is brilliant

I don't know there's something about it that um I've never forgotten I guess the weird arcs of it like even sped up where you can track like

oh he's focusing on one woman the other woman sort of feels left out she goes she starts to get dressed he goes to her he consoles her undresses her like the shifts of their dynamic i did something about the orgy just

like or was it threesome it's not an orgy really yeah it's described as an orgy here but that seems no but uh yeah and also just like just how disconnected he is from it i don't know yeah i mean i'll say another thing uh like why watching this movie as a high schooler in a class, right? Yeah. And watching it as a big old virgin. Weird. Like, weird to watch this with a teacher. This just seems nuts to me.

It has, like, rape in it. Yeah. It's very upsetting. And, like, so much in the first 10, 15 minutes where you're just like, this feels really weird to be watching in this environment. Dick at one point. Yeah. When he undresses for the policeman. And his balls. little ball you see one ball um no i was just gonna say

i think as a teenager who had not had sex yes yeah sure uh watching this scene i feel like oh like this is like the first time i've seen sex in a movie where it's like because it's all this one static shot right it's sped up you see so much behavior but it is just like camera back ceiling you're seeing a more a less hollywoodized version of sex no yes yes no no that's the point i'm making it's like it's brightly lit but there's no like gauzy close-ups there's no like camera panning over the body so it's even just like it felt like the first time I had seen like, oh, there's the awkwardness to like before and after sex where you're just standing fully naked with a person like all the other weird business around the undressing, all that stuff. I do still think that scene weirdly captures a lot of that better than most movies I've ever seen just by the nature of how it's shot. Also, the animal in this animal-ness, animal-

Animalistic. Thank you. Nature of sex. Yes. Like, they're just going at it. Right, that you're just like- It's not like kissy and like, it's like- No, and when it's sped up like that, you're like-

Doing a bit of the old- This doesn't look- The old in-out. He says a bit of the old in-out. In-out. It's too much. Too much. And that's one of those english things to me

even though he's crazy alex we're like you know he's such a fucking punk rebel but i'm like the english have spent their entire existence trying to find ways to not to say not say sex rumpy pumpy they just can't wink wink nudge. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Say no more. Say no more. No, but it is. Say no more. Say no more. It's a good point, Ben, because that's the other thing

by like speeding it up like that. The romanticism's gone, but it also like doesn't look cool. Like it just starts to look like two monkeys fucking in a zoo where you're like, what a weird, embarrassing thing we all do. He also seems to have like seven layers of sheets on his bed,

which is another like very Faye dandy ish touch to his brutality. That makes him a very contradictory and interesting character. His top sheet fucking rules. The one with like the cones on the foam, like spikes or whatever the fuck it's so distinctly strange. Well, just because he's a dang rebel and it's funny that he has such a well put together bedroom.

Yeah. That's part of the sort of visual and narrative contradiction that is in every aspect of him. But like my, you know, the sort of distinction of these first two acts of the movie is like you would,

if you, you would never guess that this is what this character's bedroom looks like after they break up Billy Boy and the other guys raping at the other casino. You'd be like, I'm sure he has a very tasteful series of sheets okay and he's put together dim would be have a messy room like the other one looks like maybe he could be like kind of like you know come from like a badder family the little one you know he's just kind of like

you know whatever he doesn't have like a specialized room, you know? But to me, Alex Strut, he's so balanced and purposeful in how he moves and he just has grace. So it makes sense to me. I don't know. It makes sense once it happens. Sure. But if you're watching this for the first time,

you're just like, when they're walking to beat up the bum in the underpass, you're just like, this must be where they live. Sure. They must just like live under the bridge like, this must be where they live. Sure. They must just like live under the bridge like trolls because these guys

are just evil. Right. It's hard to imagine them going home to a fairly normal home. To a family in this kind of bizarre... This is a course

of people. This is a time where Britain is worried about the teens. What are they up to on this? They can't be controlled. What do you mean? Britain is worried

about the teens. Do you have any source for this? I can actually find a source for you. I'm going to find some social study of British teenagers. Do they always call bad people hoodlums in the U.K.? I mean, is that like a popular term? This is going to end up with us doing homework. Hoodlums and hooligans.

Hooligans. Is that the word? That's another term that I love, and I feel like we don't use it enough here in the States. Hooligans? Hooligans and hoodlums. I like hooliganism. Yeah?

We'll talk about hooliganism. You like hooliganism as a word? I like it as a word. Hoodlum, to me, has no menace to it at all. And you think of Sinatra calling himself the hoodlum from Hoboken. Sure. And you're just like, so a hoodlum is like a guy with a fedora and a cigarette

who likes to sing? Hoodlum doesn't sound very frightening to me. Sounds like a hoodlum is like my grandma's favorite recorder. I don't think of, whereas a hooligan,

that's like a soccer hooligan. Hoodlum ends up on a fucking mural at a pizzeria. Yeah, the hoodlum is just like kind of a gent who likes a little bit of whiskey every now and then. I would just say,

you know, post-68, right? Like, you know, teenage and young, youthful rebellion is much more prominent. I mean, that's the thing. This movie is coming out as quickly in response to as anything. Yeah. Which is just, again, like this,

it's just a fast turnaround of the post-68 youth movement as this huge, sweeping, Hollywood-financed, anarchist movie. Well, I think Alex is no good, and I don't think he should do any of the things that he does. Let me ask a question about... Sound of our Ludovico technique. That's right. Not quite yet.

I feel like what's happening in the back half of the second act here is, like, they're getting one-up on him. Obviously, this is when he... Right, they're like, we gotta do more than just beat up homeless guys. And they're trying to sort of push him out of what he wants, and that's when he pushes them into the river in the image

you were showing. But also like at this point when they're going to the cat lady's house, it's been almost 40 minutes of straight music.

Like the movie is just music. It's just it's the classical. It's the score. It's one or the other at all times. And it's just so much

sound in a way that it's kind of pre setting up how bizarre the silence is going to feel when music is taken away from him. Which is just, again, the movie putting you inside his headspace by being like, for him, it's just always music. It's classical. It's whatever's on. It's Beethoven.

It's this. It's that. It's fast. It's slow. But just for this guy, it's just always music music music so with classical music right is this the first movie to make like for classical like a love of classical music equals this person is actually really evil like a hannibal lecter kind of thing because it's become a trope no i feel like any time a character that's the classic world war ii thing too like there's

always like generals right you're listening to wagner or whatever right you know i don't know i don't know i wonder where's the satanic panic around class music it puts it in a very in a youth mode which is incongruous beyond obviously this is nothing compared to sleeping with the enemy the ultimate villain who listens to classical music before doing a bad thing does anyone yes of course alex gets that terrible thing. He sleeps with the enemy. One of Anna's favorite movies. Absolutely bananas movie. Okay.

They kill the cat. Well, they kill the cat lady. She dies of her injuries, right? They kill her. Yeah, well, he killed. I mean, they don't do anything. The guys, the droogs, you know, they're innocent, essentially. They sort of set it up. But again, like, this sequence is incredible. And also, like, there's a trick he does here once that never occurs elsewhere in the movie,

where they're talking about her over the establishing shot of her doing the yoga with the cats, and then he just walks into the door. Or he knocks on the door downstairs. When you see her and you think what you're seeing is the Droogs describing it, and then you would cut back to them at the booth. But instead, it just condenses time only by a matter of a couple of hours but it's a really clever editing trick

is it weird that i find i find all of the opening act opening two acts as you would say of this movie upsetting but i don't find it scary is that weird or is that not weird like i don't find his home invasion scary i don't find him scary exactly is that crazy this movie upset me and it upset me at the time when i was a teen when i first saw it but i don't have like a lot of tension to what he's doing because i kind of know we're moving through a story you don't think random attack i do that's what i'm saying like i should be more i feel like i should be more frightened of, like, the home invasion. Because there's no, like,

identification with the victims. I mean, it's a thing that people threw out at this movie as a complaint, but it's, right, you're not really getting to know them as anything other than victims, and you're seeing everything from his perspective.

So that does result in it being more upsetting than it is scary because there's not that sort of tension from his perspective. So that does result in it being more upsetting than it is scary because there's not that sort of tension there. Yeah. I mean, the wife. You're complicit in having to watch these things. The writer's wife and the cat lady,

I mean, combined, must have fewer than 20 lines before they're out of the movie. Right. They're not characters. They're just pins for Alex to knock down yes in his that's what i mean it feels like we're moving through this because we have to understand the lengths of his depravity but i just that it's not even a complaint it's just an observation it's just interesting it's part of the way that the movie just basically

puts you on alex's shoulder or often quite literally as the movie goes on, really starting in the next bit starting when he's in jail in just a few minutes, you have people looking at the lens, talking to Alex. So already it's just setting up. You're with him. He is your host and humble narrator for this movie.

And very soon you're going to have people talking to Alex looking at you, the viewer. So you don't get anything outside of him I do always love the device of a narrator who is aware that they're a narrator like sort of calling Alex Deadpool Deadpool no but you

know I'm saying like calling the frame into question because sometimes you have narrators who are just telling you a tale and they're acting like they aren't telling you a tale they're not acknowledging the weird artifice of the conceit I like himself identifying't telling you a tale. They're not acknowledging the weird artifice of the conceit. I like himself identifying as a narrator. I just prefer narrators to tell me if the story is not for the faint of heart

because otherwise I don't know that. I love for narrators to do that and then peace out for the rest of the movie for the last 20 seconds. That's the specific trigger warning I need. I'm like, is this for the faint of heart or not? I'm always worried. But by not saying it here,

Alex is implying his story is for everybody. It's for everybody. It's for all ages. Come on down. He's not, but you know, just one thing about the attack with the cat lady is like one of the most underanalyzed aspects of Kubrick, which, you know, think about this in the future.

Like every time there's a handheld image in one of his movies, it's electrifying. One of the low-key, absolute best handheld image makers of all time. He says, and I can probably find it. I have the quote if you can't find it. Because it's one of my favorite things about him, ever.

That he did all the handheld stuff himself. On all movies. And the handheld in 2001, brief though it is, when he's kind of going in to disconnect Hal, is very exciting. This handheld melee here is just electrifying. It sort of goes back to his photojournalist. Yes.

Documentary filmmaker days. He says, the camera's on a dolly. You can go over the action of the scene with the camera operator and show him the composition that you want at each point in the take. But you can't do this when the camera is handheld. Sometimes there are certain effects which can only be achieved with a handheld camera. And sometimes you hold it because there's no other way to move through a confined

space or over obstacles. And again, it's just like, if he were the way people thought he was, he wouldn't have that attitude. He'd be like, fix it. And instead he's just like, just give it to me. Let me just hold it. And I'll just... The pragmatism. I can't describe the way I want it to look because it just has to be crazy. Just give it to me. And then every

time he does that, the results are just out of this world. And this is one of the finest examples of that. So the third act of the film is the prison. It ends with he goes to jail. I mean, this is the end of the second act. But again, this ends with Deltoid and the cops looking at the lens. And then there's just a full reversal from Alex looking at the lens in the first

shot. And now everyone's looking at him at the lens. Just showing that he's lost control of his own story. He is no longer. I think he should have gone to prison earlier. But David,

I feel like the vibe I keep on getting from this episode is that you endorse him and his behavior. You think he's cool and nice and normal. David really weirdly, I don't know why culturally

this is, but he really seems to identify with the British rulers in this film. It's bizarre. I just also like the idea of like, who attacked you? He has no perspective of what it would be like

to be a teenager anyway. Yeah, he only... The cop's asking, who attacked you? And the person being like, he was like, these four guys dressed in white with bowler hats. And the cop's like,

I don't know anyone who dresses like this. Where are the cops like, oh, I know the four guys you dressed in white with fucking bowler hats. In lieu of cufflinks they had like sculptural eyeballs with like gouged viscera around them we saw we we picked up a couple guys like that but they didn't have suspenders and you said that these guys had suspenders so we didn't have any weird crotch but like they had pups but they were on their butts

they weren't in front how the outfit came about I mean some of the details other things obviously yeah I mean I looked up a little bit about the her name is Melina or Melina Canonera Melina Canonera

one of the most famous costume designers of all time yeah like basically though the idea was just all of the clothing had to be really

easily attainable like they weren't going to create stuff so like Kubrick was with um um Malcolm McDowell and was like, let's go through your clothes. What do you have?

And he was like, well, these are my cricket whites. Sure. They do wear white to play cricket. This is like the cricket uniform. How would I know that? And then was like, on the outside. We're all giving you a thumbs up. We're proud of you. Thank you for doing it. Right. There you go. That. We're proud of you. Thank you for doing it. Right. That's, there you go.

That has to be where things go is that David just mutters under his breath like the old Jim Gaffigan routine. He'll just say something and David will just go, how do I know?

How do I know? The third act is, the third act is all prison. It's subverting as sort of British classism. No, because it's very sure. But then the other subversion of that

is when he goes to the record store, he's dressed like a dandy from the 20s. Right. Which is just ostentatious and insane.

Yes, he looks like Austin Powers. He looks shagadelic. He is a little shagadelic. I mean, the other thing I don't think his actions are shagadelic, to be clear. And they do not

make me horny. David, I don't know why you like everything he does in this movie so much. Hey, when you're a teen though and you're making money as a hoodlum, like you spend it on dumbass clothes. That's what you fucking do when you're a bad kid.

Because all your other needs are taken care of. He eats breakfast at his parents' table every day. He doesn't have to pay rent. But again, like, but you see like Billy Boy and the other guys at the beginning, like they're dressed kind of like, they have like Nazi symbols on them. But again, much like Alex and the other guys at the beginning, like they're dressed kind of like they have like Nazi symbols on them. But again, much like Alex and the Droogs,

they're so British, so 70s. Their hair, their sideburns, their aesthetics, but their clothes are very bizarre. But the idea that each gang has their own little uniform, certainly something, Ben, you can get behind is that whether it be four or five guys per gang, like we all have to get on the same page about what we're wearing. The warriors thing of like, we gotta be strong in our theming. We have to have a

unified vision. Yeah, yes. Which is what you guys should have. Oh, you think we should have a uniform? We should all dress identical. It would certainly throw people off when they show up. Yeah, that'd suck if the three of us were in like boiler suits and some poor guest comes in and we're like, hey, what's up? I like this challenge, though. Can I come? Alright, I'm gonna work on this.

You wanna talk about the person? Everything he gives us will have will be cut off. Cut off shirt, cut off pants, cut off though. Can I come? All right. I'm going to work on this. You want to talk about the prison? Everything he gives us will be cut off. Cut off shirt, cut off pants, cut off clothes. Cut off socks. Cut off shoes. It's dirty. It just covers the ankles. David wants to talk prison? Well, I just want to move forward.

Well, this is the real tragic and weepy part of the story. What? That he's in jail? As Alex says. Well, that's what he says. Right. I mean, I love how the like undressing and putting his and that scene is that is not there's not a fragment of that in the book this is one of

the weirdest scenes that is entire the book just basically goes right into him being doing the choir practice sure but the the whole check-in is but also one of the only other sets they build and a scene that's entirely invented there's not not even like a reference i just love bringing the movie to a clanging halt with the most stereotypical like you know british i mean we have to talk we have to talk about are you homosexual you know all that stuff michael bates i mean this is venereal diseases it feels like a monty python sketch it really does i mean ben this guy del Deltoid, and then the writer at the end of the movie, all three of these performances are so insane.

They do not live in a world of either realism nor science fiction. They are coming strictly from a place of broad-ass comedy. And they somehow, they fit into this world. But no one is ever like, why are you acting like this? Why do you talk like this? Especially the writer.

Like, his face just constantly being, like, wide-eyed and shaking. I mean, at least he's endured trauma. But, you know, the warden here, it's just like, no one's like, the warden acts insane. And we all just kind of take him as, like, you know, the chocolate and tobacco, you lose.

Everything he says is just like, you can imagine Kubrick just dying at what this guy is doing. It's an insane performance. And Dave is right. I mean, it's, you know, four or five minutes of the check-in. I mean, Michael Bates is also,

he's quite well known in Britain for Last of the Summer Wine, which is a sitcom in which he's playing. Have you ever heard of that, Griffin? Have you ever heard of that? I mean, Griffin. Have you ever heard of that? I mean, my favorite thing about Britain is... They didn't ever do PBS,

so I don't know how anyone could watch it. I was just saying this to the Doughboys where I mentioned Porridge, which is a famous British sitcom. Oh, do you know that? They were making fun of me.

And it is one of those when you arrive in Britain, especially when I was nine years old. Yeah. And I'm like, so what are your cultural touches? You guys got, like, Power Rangers? And they're like,

well, there's, like, a famous sitcom called Porridge. And our biggest adventure is this guy in a scarf who's in a foam butt. Like, Britain is so weird. That's all I'm going to say. That's all my only response. Like, he's such a definitive type. Yeah, he's incredible. Like the stick up his ass prison guard guy.

I'm sorry. I just want to quote because david's text was really funny here he says really no better example of classic uk sitcoms that one of the best ones is called porridge and it's about a prison yes exactly oh we all we all have to have a good laugh and you're like oh what was the show called porridge oh what's it about a guy goes to prison and lives there it's about wet mush like when i was 10 years old and living in the uk and watching tv news to me and you'd stumble on porridge and be like this is their mary tyler he's in this show michael bates he's in porridge he wasn't in part she's in last of the summer

wine which is just another hilarious where you're like, Last of the Summer Wine, is that some sort of melancholy like work of literature? No, it's a sitcom. Like, what are you talking about? Our longest running sitcom, three episodes. We all fucking laughed our asses off. Yeah, this whole scene,

like, just the gradual loss of his humanity and him becoming 6-5-5-3-2-1. And him being compliant. He's so compliant. He has this idiotic smirk on his face the entire time. It's like, even still, he's not taking this seriously.

He just doesn't really view his imprisonment as anything to be that worried about in the telling. It makes me think a lot about when you're at that age and how capable you are of manipulating adults in this really diabolical way. You're all looking at me like you don't relate. I know what you're talking about. It's the thing I was talking about.

I like to manipulate other children from a position of authority. I feel like people focus on teenage insecurity awkwardness, but there's such a bizarre confidence to teenagers that is just this weird sense of immortality. There's a bit of that.

I'm like, I'm starting to understand how to control my environment. I mean, when I feel like kids are their most terrifying, it's kind of when they're like 11, when like puberty, the hammer, the awkward hammer of puberty is not yet hit.

Yeah. And you're kind of like, I'm a big kid, man. I really do run the world. I got no pressures, you know? But when you're 15,

you're actually like walking around places by yourself. You are, you are allowed to walk around by by yourself and people like might treat you like an adult you're steering it off topic even i feel like this is not what you want to do and we're almost done with the film which is not really um but the last you know the the ludovico and the recovery is half the movie it is and if we're going to go on a tangent about what age people walk around we're never going to get there what age people walk around great tangent by me um i will say what you everyone weigh in on what age you remember walking around i was gonna bring up and i don't know if you felt this way but the mortal terror at 15 of like oh no i'm gonna have

to interact with a grown-up yeah to like movie ticket or get my McDonald's or whatever. The grown-up being 20. Exactly. But you're still just sort of like, I better do this right. Yeah. That's the thing. There's no one in this movie that's in between his age

and basically his parents' generation. Right. It's all a bunch of stick-up-their-ass Brits. That are in their 30s. It's either the teenagers or teenage adjacent and old people. Even his parents seem like they're 60. Yeah.

Even though they're dressed like very hip in this like weird fucking way. Like it just makes them actually look more uncool. But this sequence, like there's no Nadsap talk

as he's in prison. There's a little bit, I think, in the voiceover. But basically, his personality as we saw in the opening sequence, is gone. He is not the same person anymore. In that he's now 655321.

Right, and like, the back half of the movie is slower. Am I allowed to say that? Well, yeah, we're almost there. Two years have passed. He's the... I think it's two years of a 14-year sentence. I do have, I mean, this this is we can't really get into this

unfortunately i'm sure this is what people are clamoring for but the thing that this movie sort of like i think can be studied philosophically especially this segment in relation to ben i'm sure you're familiar i'm sure you guys are all getting power shifted and i like it the table's tilted this way this would you get i feel like this is obvious but like whenever you guys were asked to do an assignment in school, you were always like, how can I make this about movies? Yeah, absolutely.

I definitely could be guilty of that. So at some point, I read and had to do for a philosophy class an assignment on Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish. His 1975 book

about the carceral state. You guys are so fancy. High school. The way that, this was not high school. This was college. Oh, it was college. And the way that the sort of

Western approach to penal systems in the modern age post-ex was not high school. This was college. Oh, it was college. And the way that the sort of Western approach to penal systems in the modern age post-executions had evolved. And I was just like, obviously, I'm just going to write a paper on Clockwork Orange. Right, right. Like, obviously,

I have nothing to say about philosophy divorced from movies. I remember I had a science class where they asked us to do a presentation on a modern phenomenon in science, and I picked...

Spider-Man. Spider-Man. Please say Spider-Man. I don't like the face-off. Face-off. And I just talked about the movie Face-Off for like 10 minutes, and I Spider-Man. Please say Spider-Man. I don't want to do face-off. And I just talked about the movie Face-Off for like 10 minutes and I was like, so is facial transplant surgery possible? Maybe. Stay tuned for the

truly, truly. I listed the box office. Inclusion Nigeria is a land of contrast. Libya, I believe. Yeah, that's all I said. And in St. Anne's they were like, Griffin, A+. No, I mean, that's... They didn't give grades. That's how bad of a student I was.

No, but they brought out the A+, for Griffin's face off. No, it sounds like Griffin was taken aside and given a conversation. I was like the academic Alex DeLarge of my shitty, stupid school for dumb special kids. But just basically, like, again, this is only interesting in that, like, by the 70s, after this movie is made, there's, like, this conversation about what do we do now that we don't kill criminals right is reform possible because we can't just have people locked up forever which is exactly what the government comes and says in this movie that predates this foucault book by like four or five years which is like prisons are right now this is still a thing you want to lock up a criminal to get them off the streets.

You're not going to kill them. You're not going to cure them. So what do we do with them? And Foucault engages with them. I just will also, and not to be Mr. Britain again, but death penalty had been recently abolished in the UK. I feel like it was a present concern. Like, what are we going to do now?

Yeah. And you hear the government say that when they show up and they're basically, they say like, they say something like soon these prisons will be needed for political purposes and that common criminals can't take up all this space. And basically the government is coming and being like, we have to lock up our enemies. So if someone's arrested for like violence or drugs,

yeah, just give him a Ludovico and then he'll barf anytime he wants to be violent. Right. Problem solved. Problem solved. Right. Problem solved. But again, right? Problem solved. But again, when Alex talks to the chaplain,

or the chaplain, however it's pronounced. Chaplain, sure. Chaplain or chaplain. I would say chaplain. I would say chaplain too, but you know. Curling? I wouldn't swear that I'm right. Robert Downey.

The two shot of them is he's revealing that he's heard about the Ludovico technique is the same as him talking to Deltoid. And again, you're kind of putting him in conversation with these adults for two, three, four minutes at a time. As opposed to Ben, like you're saying, like he's not talking at the beginning of the movie. He's just kind of yelling things and running around. And now he's having these long conversations with these people that are tasked with keeping him under control. And he's, again, just in a completely different state than he is at the beginning of the movie as he begs to be given the

treatment right the ludovico technique which is all of that is obviously horrifying to consider and is horrifyingly presented but it is incredibly comical to me as well like it does like it is like a weird square peg round hole thing where government government's like, that'll solve it. Like, am I crazy? No, it's what you said about it being like the logic of a child. Yeah, right. I already said it. There you go. It's got Milgram experiment vibes.

Definitely. Yeah, just don't do it. It kind of has Homer being forced to eat all the donuts vibes. Ironic punishment department. Yes. I mean, this is the ironic punishment department. It is. It truly is.

They're like, well, we're just going to make a movie that looks like the first part of this movie but cheaper and crappier right and you'll just have to watch your own horrible life yeah until you go insane yeah and it's it's just it's very but like again like the the the handheld shot with the assistants bringing him the food and i believe the you know the liquid the vaccine or whatever they're giving him the injection like this is just this long handheld shot down and again it's like he makes this shot so loose and so excellent to establish this insane new center that alex is now being held in that is viddy the films and the fact that they look exactly like him and his drugs he doesn't acknowledge that at all he really has this dissociative quality

where he's not like I dressed like that as recently as two years ago he's just like oh as Griffin says it's funny how the colors

of the real world only seem real like he's just like this is a movie here we are he has no awareness that there's any resemblance between his own actions

and what he's seeing which again is Kubrick just saying like don't you idiot people get it like what you're guilty of and what he's seeing. Which again is Kubrick just saying, don't you idiot people get it? What you're guilty of and what you want to avoid are the same things. You want to abolish violence

so you do violence to others. You want to be sexually secure so you get obsessed with sex. He's just so frustrated with people's lack of finding the proper balance of their own humanity. On a very base level, I stuff freaks me out more than anything it certainly is uncomfortable it's absolutely in a movie filled with a lot of sequences of very upsetting imagery so that

it's basically real what you're watching yeah that's what really fucks me up yeah uh this mcdowell 40 50 years later interview i was watching, he said that the guy who's next to him administering the eye drops is like a real eye drop. Right, right, right. Right? Makes sense. Kubrick's whole thing was like, I have this idea, we can do it for real.

And McDowell was like, well, I'm not fucking doing that. And he's like, I got a doctor, it'll be fine. And he's like, no, you're going to use my stand-in. My stand-in has similar eyes. And he's like, we're not using your stand-in, it's going to be you. They were just fighting about this back and forth. But he was like, this guy's going to use my stand-in. My stand-in has similar eyes. And he's like, we're not using your stand-in. It's going to be you. They were just fighting about this back and forth. But he was like, this guy's going to be here.

He's going to give you drops every 15 seconds on camera. He'll be on camera. It'll be fine. And then they're there on the day filming. And Kubrick's like, we should give him a line. He's on camera. He should say something. So he says like, what is it like little Alex?

Are you ready for your drops or something like that? Sure. He says some line like that. But the way McDowell told it is like, here's this guy whose job is just like, you need to make sure this guy's eyes don't get fucked up. And then Kubrick said like, we're going to throw you a line. That's fun. And then the guy was so obsessed with the line.

God, right. He's like, don't worry, Mr. Kubrick, I won't get this wrong. And then he's fucking up the eyedrops. Exactly. So he was like, McDowell was doing the count in his head every 15 seconds and like hitting the guy. And the guy kept on leaning over and going like, what's your character's name again? And he was like, don't think about the fucking line. What do you think my motivation in this scene is?

Yes. You're giving me eyedrops, you fucker. A, it's always the hardest thing to do in a scene is only but you're giving me eye drops you fucker like a it's always the hardest thing to do in a scene is only have one line and b if you have a non-professional person being told they have to act on top of doing the thing that they're used to doing on a regular basis suddenly they come all consumed with the obsession of that um the other thing he said that just really haunted me is that like they're uh they're giving him like numbingbing agents throughout this whole sequence. And then it's shitty, scary, upsetting, whatever.

But he's not feeling it. He goes home from set. He's driving the car, and it wears off. Right. And then he had scratched his cornea. He was in incredible pain. And he said he hit a speed bump on the road, and he described it as, it felt like a razor blade went

straight down my body. And I like got to my home. I had to call my doctor and he had to like just inject me full of everything. That is upsetting. Yeah. Sounds like fun. Sounds like fun. Anyway, this is the portion of the movie where I have to like kind of like. It's just incredible. All like

the sort of wonky things on his head. Like this, the design of everything on his head and this sort of so-called technology that they're using to monitor. It's just, it's so silly looking. Yeah. We have to talk about the sort of post-treatment demonstration.

Oh my God. Oh, sure. Yes, absolutely. It's just an insane scene. It's just like a genuinely deranged scene with the comedian. Who are these performers? This is what I'm talking about.

The world of this movie is a world of just such grotesque caricatures of human beings. But these all must have been like British comedy television guys, right? There's no way to know. If only we had some resource. I think the comedian's name is Michael Clive. Okay. The Clive is in his name somewhere,

which of course sounds very British. But the rhythms of them... But he comes in like he's Mo. He comes in and he's poking him in the nose and yanking his ears

and stepping on his toes. And then bows! And then he... And they clap. He tells him that he stinks. And throughout the whole time that this guy is torturing him, it's like this fife march playing.

It's like this very medieval. It's just nothing about this scene has any bearing on reality or logic. And yet the sort of agony of it sticks out his tongue and licks his boot while this bizarre looking man does this silly slapstick routine. It's just like, you can't even believe that there's people that have made it this far in the movie thinking like, this movie glorifies violence and celebrates an anarchist violent main character.

And it's like, the main character has now watched the beginning of the movie. Right. And basically said to the audience, violence is a horrible thing and this makes me sick to have to watch. And the idea that you've gotten this far and you're like,

I'm sure the filmmaker doesn't agree with that. It's like, really, the main character just basically turned to the camera and said, the content of this movie is violent and upsetting. I hope you know that. You have this audience of buddy-duddies laughing and applauding. Well, the reaction shots of Michael Bates here.

How can anybody say Kubrick has no sense of humor when you're watching Michael Bates? Do you think people say that? I've heard it said, yes. When Michael Bates watches the naked woman walk out, the series of reaction shots of him watching her are just like all

time reaction shots. And then the way he's clapping when she leaves. He's just like he's never seen a naked woman before. This guy is giving an incredible silent performance. These people people being like revolted by the idea of these violent youths and then just like cheerfully watching them subject this guy to violence

as quote unquote proof that he's cured of violence. But it's like, yeah, but you're watching and enjoying him getting fucked with in the same way. There's nothing funnier than telling someone that they stink. It's just so solid. It's maybe the all-time greatest burn. Yeah, he does. He moves the hand, and Alex is like,

I took a shower just yesterday, and he's just like, oh, horrible stench. You. It's just incredible. Let's talk about the fifth act. A free man. Yes. A free man.

The longest, kind of the longest act, or maybe the longest feeling. These both are like 40 ish minutes yeah the whole ludovico sequence every time i watch this movie which i've seen several times mostly as a teenager i really associate it with being a teenager and like my friends being obsessed with it as well um i always forget how fucking long it is at the back end like you know yeah just flies by flies right of the the treatment being so much closer to the end now there's a full 40 minutes yeah that's yeah yeah but again like at this point a lot of

these scenes are getting really long the the demonstration scene with the comedians really long so then yeah but he what does it think one of the other big changes in the book is that here his parents are reading in the paper cat killer free cated. In the book, he just shows up and they're like, what on earth is happening? Like, what technique? How did you get out? Yeah.

Interesting change, I think. He's got his big parcel. That is far... Okay, fuck Joe. I don't like Joe's attitude at all. I think Joe's the villain. He's fucking... Ben, I was about to say

the exact same thing. He has one of my favorite lines in the movie. He's bad roommate. Yeah was fucking Ben. I was about to say the exact same thing. He has one of my favorite lines in the movie. He's bad roommate. Yeah. Like he, and he's like, he's like,

these are my parents now. Like not do it with your, so weird. Do it with your mouth covered. It's bloody revolting. Incredible. Joe stinks. But also like,

what kind of world is this? That this government is kind of building these systems of protection and that grown men have to just live with adult married like there's nowhere else for joe to live yeah i mean i don't know if that's a symptom of society i think that's joe's deal yeah fucking joe man like i wish cooper could do a joe spin-off called joe's deal because i got some questions dav David, what do you think of the Freeman stuff? I mean, I love Patrick McGee. It's a huge humble brag.

Is it McGee or May-gee? Is it McGee? Like, you know, McDuck? Or is it May-gee? No, it's McGee. Because his real name is M-C-G-E. I thought it was M-A. McGee with the A is a stage name i'm

not sure why he changed it um but um probably too there was probably another patrick mcgee out there you want to talk about the return of mcgee i want to talk about one quick shot before getting there sure when they're taking alex after it's this whole parable of recidivism obviously he retrieved he's out there you're like you're healed you're out and they're like by the way you have nothing to your name we sold all your possessions you have nowhere to live so you'll figure it out right you know i mean right but again it's just this deeply cynical view of like they want yeah it's his old droogs are cops now the cynicism is just hitting so hard at this point but this handheld shot where they're dragging him into the setting sun to beat him into the water tank like just the shot goes on it's gotta be like 45 seconds

of them just dragging him through the field and there's just no set design there's nothing it's just a field with the setting sun and it's just so incredible and i i would love to know how many takes of that they did like this just this is not precise you can't do 100 takes of something with a setting sun like that unless you do three a day for a month. I just want to make something clear. Stanley Kubrick is a humorless scold who made hermetic movies and he did 100 takes every time and it drove everyone crazy.

No one disagrees with David. I love everything Alex does in this movie. Yeah, I love it. I heard it on the killing episode. I don't need it repeated. It's almost like you're talking about someone who's not in the room and I have no control over. Well, it's almost like you're talking about someone who's not in the room and I have no control over. Well, it's almost like you're talking about, like you have any knowledge of British society,

class, or cult. Stop making yourself to be this self-appointed expert. Have you ever seen the freaking, the birthday party? No. Patrick McGee, incredible in that. And I watched that as a teenager, I think because it was,

I had a real pinter face as a teenager. Oh boy. What American boy has a pinter face? I grew up in the United Kingdom! What? Is that even a common thing there? To have a pinter face? No. For little English major nerds it might be, but I don't know if it's a common thing there, to have a pinterface? No.

For little English major nerds, it might be, but I don't know if it's a common... I don't think it's like, oh, he's having his pinterface, and he goes, oh! And what's folding their lawn? I mean, the spot of pinter is you. Oh, with the pauses, eh? All those pauses. Hello! I have a big pinterface...

Theater of menace, is it big Pinterface coming out party. It started. It started. Oh, you're 15 years old. Here's your collected Pinter. Starting to worry it might never happen for him. But then it came in one day. It came in really short.

Oh, no. He was just on the Beckett always. And then finally I hear, oh, oh what is that the caretaker anyway i i had a bit of a pinter phase i think he's incredible in that movie patrick mcgee he's got you know who he reminds me of and this is silly um fucking what's his name from breaking bad margolis mark margolis you? Oh, Mark Margolis. The crazy old grandpa. Yeah. They both have this similar, I guess because they're just both wheelchair bound. Sure.

They have similar brooding intensity. Yeah. You know what I thought about? I thought about Arrested Development. Shoot me. Shoot me, dragon. Shoot me, dragon. They have the same look.

That is the funniest thing on Arrested Development maybe ever and yet it's so incongruous with the show in a way yeah like when Martin Short comes in and is doing that even in the heightened version of that you're kind of like Jesus this is a lot like this is a very complicated bit heavy character he's too small but he's like a buff old man and he needs a big man to throw him around and his legs don't work. And also he like has acid reflux. He's always like barfing. Swoop me, dragon. Sorry.

The way that we get back into the writer's house is all the same shots from Act One. It's a complete, I i mean not beat for beat but like that's you know the doorbell and then kind of going over the track yeah it's all he's repeating a lot of you know the establishing shot of the home sign now in the rain like it's just he's using all these cues to be like it's the same but it's horrible now then the room is all different the wife is gone who is there lifting weights his helper dragon dragon but uh but like the whole thing but but the character's called alexander right the writer yeah he's like alexander or something right he's like this guy perfect example of like government overreach right he's

like he's a figure yeah a figure of the fringe you know left if the government is conservative and he's just like this is you know we've gone too far this is crazy we can't be rewiring He's a figure of the fringe left if the government is conservative. And he's just like, this is, you know. We've gone too far. This is crazy. We can't be rewiring people's brains. But he, much like the people in prison and the Ludovico people, they just look at him and they're like, finally, a means to my end. Right, right.

That's the thing. You, boy, can be a pawn in my goals. And the kid, the 18, 19-year-old kid at this point is just like, I have no free will. Yeah, whatever. You boy can be a pawn in my goals. And the kid, the 18, 19 year old kid at this point, it's just like, I have no free will. Yeah. Whatever you, you will use,

you'll give me a bath. Like, I guess I'll be, but like, that's the thing. Like it would be a little too easy for it to be like, he's just this compassionate guy. Who's even though he was attacked,

like, you know, he's like, no, come in. You're all you poor kid. But like, there is that edge of like,

no, I can use you to prove. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this, but again, like by this, the way he's like no come in you're all you poor kid but like there is that edge of like no i can use you to prove yeah yeah yeah yeah and this but again like by this the way he's acting he's still probably better than teen alex delarge though by this point like the way that he's acting now is like you know when he's like the food it's just another person that alex is just like he should say like and this is one of Anna's like the things that drive her the craziest and make her the most uncomfortable

in David Lynch things is when someone is acting insane owner of the Riddler cape yes still owner of the Riddler cape as I told you both recently mentioned

Riddler cape alive and well yes it just drives her so crazy in a fun you know reactionary way of like, how come no one is pointing out that this person is acting the way that they're acting? Oh, you mean just the classic movie thing of like,

everyone's just sort of looking to the left and so they don't... Yeah, I mean, for her it was Dougie Jones and all of Twin Peaks The Return. Sure. Where it's just as 12, 13 episodes of this, she just kept going, how come no one is turning to him and going, what is wrong with you? Well, it's the,

she's got a great ass thing where it's like the kind of performance that comes out of a hundred takes where someone's losing their mind.

They're like, I don't know, what the fuck do you want me to do? And they do something insane. But the writer here is getting to play, give me what I got!

But the writer, the writer is getting to just play the bookend of his earlier sequence where he's not like this at all. It's really bizarre and exciting. And again, the spaghetti scene is so long.

And it's not like this in the book because in the book, this is where he's kind of putting the pieces together. Whereas now he already knows. Because much like Alex, he heard music that triggered his insanity. So already, even though he didn't go through the Ludovico technique the meaning here is like you cannot go through the technique and have the same something psychological reaction right and this guy it was one 20 minute part of

his life for alex it was two weeks and you hear music and your brain just breaks and then this spaghetti scene just it cannot you kind of believe how long the scene goes on for it contains no new information they're just repeating things we already know. And it's captivating. The wine, like, drugging is such a funny button. He knows it's drug, too. He's holding it up. Yeah, no, I know.

And, like, all the, like, you know, he's, like, smelling it, checking it, but then always, like, you know, justifying why he's taking so long. And then he takes two big gulps and then starts relaying like sort of his story. Have another glass. But then it's just like when it hits,

he smacks into the fucking spaghetti. Like it's a sketch. It's a Simpsons joke. It's just unbelievable. And like if you had a comedian who said, Kubrick is humorless, and they had ever seen this movie where he's like, I just have the feeling that any second something terrible might happen to me. You'd be like, oh and they had ever seen this movie where he's like, I just have a feeling that any second

something terrible might happen to me. You'd be like, oh, they must have missed this movie because that's just perfect comic timing. And it's a great McDowell timing too. A lot of Simpsons refs in this episode. But the Simpsons reference is Clockwork Orange a lot.

Yeah, it does. So that's why it feels simpatico. That's the reason they nailed it. It's probably one of the most inappropriate for children movies that they reference a lot. There's the reason they nailed it. It's probably one of the most inappropriate for children movies that they reference a lot. There's the shot of Bart reaching for the cupcakes.

No, no, no. You're right. You're totally right. I mean, it makes sense. It's generationally perfect for that writer's right. It's what you're talking about, too. The fact that this movie

existed as forbidden fruit for so long. Where you're like, this movie's rated X and it's banned in all these countries. It's why I associate with teenagehood.

So specifically, not just the subject matter, but just the fact that as teenagers, we were all like, can you believe this exists? Right, because it's banned in all these countries. It's why I associate with teenagehood. So specifically, not just the subject matter, but just the fact that as teenagers, we were all like, can you believe this exists? Right, because it's not like, oh, this is a rated R movie I might accidentally see on TV or whatever. You have to find it. I've seen this movie in the theater, I would say,

over 15 times. But one time I saw it. That's a lot of times. Every time. It was not out when you were alive. To this day, if I saw it was playing on 35, I would make a point of going. I try to never miss it. For the future, David,

if you ever want to end an Alex episode early, tell him Hawker Orange is playing at IFC and it starts in 30 minutes. And I'll be like, IFC has a print.

Are you sure? That doesn't sound right. But I saw I saw a 16 millimeter print of this in a library once. Wow. Because I saw that it was playing and I thought, that sounds fun. I'd like to watch that. Where is this library? It's definitely not a DCP. I saw a 16mm print of this in a library once. Wow. Because I saw that it was playing and I thought,

that sounds fun. I'd like to watch that. Where was this library? It was in Philadelphia. Fair enough. It was in my teenage years. Wait, I'm sorry. You grew up in Philadelphia?

The Liberty Bell in Independence Hall, Philadelphia. The shot of him throwing himself out the window, that's kind of an iconic shot, right? Because that's like... Camera in a box. Right, yeah. Devising this whole crazy contraption. I wonder what kind of box that was.

Kubrick's boxes. But my crown of card. But even before that, the long zoom out of all the people listening to him in agony upstairs with the speakers turned upright on the pool table, and they're just throwing, you know, the billiards.

That shot is incredible. Just everyone sitting there. You guys have, I kept waiting. David Prowse is in this scene. Can I give you the Prowse story? I mean, I do want to wrap up soon, but like, you know the story, right? Or maybe not. The story is that David Prowse is Darth Vader. I mean, he's dragon, essentially. He's a bodybuilder. Right. You know, David Prowse is a very

large man. He played Darth Vader. And there's a scene where he has to carry him in the wheelchair down the stairs. There's lots of scenes where he's carrying him not in the wheelchair. And Stanley says, this is the bit where you carry him down the stairs in the wheelchair. And Prowse said, hang on a minute,

Stanley, Patrick weighs about 170 pounds. The wheelchair is probably another 30. I've got to stagger down three flights of stairs, wheel him into the table and hold a conversation. And Kip Rick's like, yeah, you're a strong guy aren't you and uh prowse says yeah i am but your name's not one take kubrick is it and the whole set apparently goes like totally quiet right like because and kubrick apparently smiles and says we'll get it done as quickly as possible and prowse says we did that in six takes which was amazing for him

so prowse actually successfully called him out on set of like look i'm not fucking bringing this wheelchair down the stairs 50 times buddy i don't care how big i am it's an incredible physical presence and performance it's like schwarzenegger in the long goodbye it's just like this i think the whole line on prowse is like the man had fucking presence beyond just being big. He looks so good in the suit when they're listening to Alex lose his mind. It's just that he sounds so ludicrous when he talks that they could not use his voice. Have you ever seen the footage? He's got this lovely West Country accent.

He did all the Darth Vader dialogue on set and was under the impression that his voice was going to be used in the movie. And it sounds like Darth Vader wants you to get him a bunch of potatoes or whatever. He has this like really thick kind of like farmer accent. I find your lack of faith disturbing. Really?

Yeah. I'll look this up. I'll find you a video. But it is one of these things where like everyone who's working on Star Wars is like this movie is going to fucking flop.

Yeah, this sounds stupid. That having been said, it's very funny. When you look at modern Star Wars stuff where it is not Prowse in the suit and you still have James Earl Jones' voice, the performance never works as well as when Prowse was the guy.

Like, he did undeniably have a thing. This movie and the sort of, you know, all the other British people from the bums to, you know, all the, you know, the prison warden, like, this just feels like it lives in the same world of casting as Star Wars to me. Yeah. Like, it just, it's only, you know, six years apart of casting, but this kind of Englishness. Yeah. Where you look at Star Wars and you're like,

that's what people looked like in England in the 70s. Yep. Despite being the future, this is exactly the same to me. And yet, that's what I love so much about both movies. But that's what, right, both movies where they're like, what will the future fascist state be like? And it's like, you know,

there's going to be some scary stuff, but it's also going to be like a lot what will the future fascist state be like and it's like you know there's gonna be some scary stuff but it's also gonna be like a lot of english pencil pusher guys in the background yeah like me before we talk about the final scene in the hospital which is where the cynicism of this movie goes nuclear it's the one other big change is that in the book when he gets out when he takes his bundle from his parents he goes to the library to look up how to kill himself painlessly. Yes. And that is where he encounters the bum. And then it plays out the same. Right. But yes, I remember that in the book, the painlessly thing.

Because he's had enough pain. Right. And then in the movie, it's just kind of him looking at a bridge. And you get that he's thinking about jumping off of it. No, it would be a bit weird in the movie. He's off to the library and Googling suicide or whatever. There's something that has that joke in it. Where's Googling like how to kill self painlessly. It's like from whatever.

I'll remember it tomorrow. We'll throw that in tomorrow. The way the bums attack him is very insane and funny. Just the group, as he says in the voiceover, like the filthy stinking bums descending upon him and the one that steals his package just shuffles away but i mean yes but i just love the the conceit of like them being like all right technique didn't really work but we can't be admitting that so can you just kind of go along with it this is this is where the movie to me gets like if people are like that movie is kind of hard to watch and morally dubious to me yes there's the violence that I think the movie self critiques. But by this point, just like the audacity to be so cynical, to have the prime minister come in and be like, look, I'm sorry.

Now the writer, we put him away. That guy is a menace to himself and to others. And it's just like that poor man he's like and the fact that the movie is just like oh the writer yeah he's just in an institute we've just seen what institutions look like in this world right that crippled man is in there now having survived horrible trauma and he's just like oh we put him away and to have alex after everything just have this guy go how would you like to uh be a friend to us and he just goes sounds good to me right it's just like his embrace of every what is he rebelling against at this point if not the government it's not he's not rebelling against

society because he essentially becomes a government employee yeah he agrees to be like sure i'll be kind of your spokesperson and the the full, and again, like you talk about Kubrick's outlook and his cynicism. Here's the end. This guy starts off as a raping, murdering psychopath. And by the end, he is a government employee posing for the photographers that were already there,

knowing that this was going to work out. The idea that there's no chance that he would say, get lost. I hate you, I will spend my life crusading against this government. The pictures would all be with him with thumbs down. Yes. And instead, the prime minister is like, he's going to say yes.

There's no doubt he's going to say yes. And this final moment to me is like, there is this so devoid of optimism or hope. It is so cynical. Right. And then he just becomes his government propaganda tool instead of what he is

in the extra chapter, which we can now finally recap, which I had a real, real Mandela effect reading. I don't know if you... Well, how, what do you mean? Because in my memory, I was like,

the extra chapter, Alex is like 50. Uh-huh. And he's an old man and he's kind of reformed and you get the sense that still inside him is something of a

of a psychotic right and for 20 years since I last read this I thought that was the extra chapter but he right he's like it takes place like

he's 18 years old he's like a year later and he just has a new gang yeah and then runs into one of the old gang who's like I have a family now

right and Alex just goes well interesting I wonder maybe I'm just going to go home and not go out tonight for the for the violence maybe i could have a family too he's shaking his sillies it's basically true but like the the ending of him becoming a government pawn yeah to help assuage

people's nervousness about the mistreatment of prisoners it's just like that's dark that's a darker ending than i think people give credit for The cynicism of if you track his parents' relationship to him, right? And that they are at their most terrified of him when he is coming out of what has then been presented to them as an entirely successful treatment. Right? Right. They're oblivious when he is at his most criminal. And when he comes back and they're going, this fucking work, we cured the guy, they view him as, like, a ticking time bomb. And then at the end, when he's the victim of, like, malpractice.

The modern age. They once again just have endless sympathy, empathy. Even though they know that he is now not. That's the point. You know. Right. Like, he is violent or he has the capability. Right.

They finally have more compassion for him at that moment and his rejection of them of his own M&P or M&D or whatever he calls them and his embrace of the prime minister it's just like that is so cold and again okay fine maybe Kubrick is cold by reputation but like that is ice cold

that is crazy I think kids are callous like Like when you're that age, you're so fucking callous. He's trying to manipulate himself back into the position that he started at. And this is getting him as close to it. But now he has fucking money and status and power. It's the natural progression

of basically being a fucking bully. Yeah. The bully ends up being like- You sell out and you become a fucking cop. Bastard. You become a fucking cop. The bully becomes a cop and then gets to keep being a bully. Yeah. The bully ends up being like- You sell out and you become a fucking cop. Bastard. You become a fucking cop. The bully becomes a cop and then gets to keep being a bully. And Alex gets to continue to have his visions and maybe even act on them

with complete protection and approval of the government. Now he's insulated and he can exist in the shadows and do all kinds of more sick shit and get away with it. And in this version, without the extra chapter, if this guy gets in trouble with the law,

it's going to go away. Someone's going to come and be like, you can't touch him. He's one of ours. And that's the note the movie ends on with him continuing to have these fantasies and you know that he can go out and get whatever he wants tomorrow,

robbing and whatever. And then the prime minister will say, don't touch him. He's very important to the administration. And that to me is just like, Jesus, that's the meaning of the movie.

I'm also just cutting into the hospital when he wakes up and the people are, the nurse and the doctor are having sex. It's just like... Oh yeah, that is funny. Such a dim view.

And also, very English too. That's a very English, like, oh, nurse-y! You know, like chasing after a topless nurse. It feels very Benny Hill to sort of just encounter a diddling nurse and doctor. But again, it's just like... Diddling. Rumpy pumpy!

The view here is just like, everyone in the position of authority in this world is a fool and a failure. Yeah. And no one's doing their job well, and everyone is basically just useless. Okay. Before we play the box office game. And remember also

we have a giant pin in the prodigy. That's what I was about to say. And I have one. Should I unpin the prodigy? Look, this is very brief and I have one thought exercise that we can say

before box office game. And it'll be an easy answer. Okay. And I don't think we can, the pin can come out but it can only say this and there can be no When the pin comes out

it's going to go like clang. Yeah, but we're not going to belabor this. And there can be no embellishment. When the pill comes out, it's going to go like clang. We're not going to belabor this. As you remember, last year before we recorded Halloween, Griffin and I went to see Guns N' Roses. That's right. You guys have done road trips both times. This year, we went out to the Mahoning Drive-In in Central

Pennsylvania to watch some Universal Monster Films. Did you go to Waffle House? We did not go to Waffle House. No, but there's a Waffle House in central Pennsylvania. We didn't and we should have. We didn't get that central. I went when I was in Atlanta recently. It was delicious.

It's the best. We went to Wawa. We had a good Wawa trip. We went to Wawa. Griffin got the Kevin Hart combo. Do you know what the Kevin Hart combo? Can I, David, I have to talk about this for 30 seconds. Do it quickly.

You know this fucking trend of like music stars who like have their own fucking fast food menu? Sure, whatever. Combo meal. Yeah. Where it's like, this is the sweetie meal. What who like have their own fucking fast food menu. Sure, whatever. Combo meal. Yeah. Where it's like this is the sweetie meal. What I get is this but with this sauce and this on the side or whatever. And the entire idea is like this is a personal reflection of their. What is the Kevin Hurt combo?

The Kevin Hurt combo is some shitty fucking energy drink that he has some pre-existing sponsorship with. Sure. Heart juice. Called like C12 or some shit. Sure. It's not a heart branded thing. it's some deal he already has heartbreaker it's called c12 i believe or something like okay and any sandwich you want so the combo is i don't know what do you like drink my drink you jerk are that much of a fucking sociopathic fame hound we didn't eat the sandwich because alex told me that the food was to be so fucking good at the drive-in that I went back for seconds.

It was really good. Yeah, let's be fair. I told you it was going to be good and you said it was better than I said. It's just, come on. What was your sandwich? I didn't get a sandwich. He didn't get one. I just want you to say turkey club.

Turkey club. So you got the Kevin Hart combo turkey style. I just wanted to say that. I hiked to Griffin. I was like, all the food at the drive-in is beige and fried. You're going to be in heaven. And then when we went through the first time, he said, there's almost too much choice for a guy like me.

Right. And I said, I have to be selective now so I can come back for seconds. What is the thought? Okay. I can't tell you why, when this started, or any context for it. But I will say that when Griffin and I go on these trips, you're chatting. We're chatting.

We chat a lot. You are referred to as Hip Hop Sims. Now, moving on to the other thing. Excuse me? Moving on to the thought experiment. I'm not objecting. I'm not objecting. This is the thought experiment.

Next August, whenever i come back next august i will we'll give one more tidbit on hip-hop sims alex texted me for reasons i can't reveal a photo of cartman from season one of south park looking like mc search and like the red jump because you said when you picture hip-hop sims you picture hip-hop cartman we can't say why this started in what context or what it means are you saying that because you don't know or no no we know we know we know why but i don't i don't know what the fuck they're talking we don't want you to know yeah why can't i know because it might put the pin it might it might by by revealing going in it's like a social you can't let the jury read

the news because it will ruin the outcome of the trial you can't let hip-hop sims know why he has why do you call me hip-hop sims it can't be answered all right you have to put it on another we have to put another happy to book him on another i don't need a threat great then put a pin in it put a pin no i have no i have further questions is it insulting no no is it complimentary no no it No. Is it complimentary? No. No. It's merely factual. It's a reflection of reality with no editorialization. But it's not, you're not being mean about me? Look, I'm not saying.

I'm just asking. I'm not saying that this started last year at Guns N' Roses. I'm not saying that it started after your wedding. All possible. Anything is possible. I'm not saying this is because of comments you've made on episodes. I'm just saying to us, you are hip-hop sims.

I should say, at the Guns N' Roses concert, this was introduced to me by Alex. I accepted it. Or it was introduced after the wedding. Sure. One or the other. But now anytime we talk,

at some point, we refer to hip-hop sims. Okay. At the Guns N' Roses concert, this is the last thing I'll say, it was said during their astonishing cover of Live and Let Die that you had claimed this was the worst thing

that ever happened to music. Maybe the best thing ever. I think Griffin sent you a video of them performing it and you made some disparaging remarks. Yeah, not that good. Maybe that was when Hip Hop Sims started. I was just saying that video of me opening the ultimate fucking box.

Maybe there was something at the wedding that gave birth to Hip Hop Sims. The point is, he's out there. He's out there. He exists. He's real. And the memes will be created. Well, actually, okay. I want to speak to, listen, people out there. David has gone through enough of the British bit.

Please be gentle about hip hop Sims. That's all I'm saying. Just be gentle. I'll take hip hop Simss over the UK bit. You'll never go over the top. What are you talking about? You'll never go over the top of the UK thing after Clockwork Art. No.

I just don't want it to be mean. It's not mean. Okay. There's nothing mean about it. It could be mean. If it was mean, we wouldn't say it to your face. And know that when this is revealed. That's true.

Know that when this is revealed. It's not really comforting, but sure. To know that when this is revealed, you'll when this is revealed, it's not really comforting, but sure to know that when this is revealed, you'll just laugh and go, okay, that's funny, but I have to wait. Yeah. I just want to let it sit out there.

Here's another thing to sit out there. This has been sitting, this has been sitting out there for so long. You guys, I almost mentioned this on Halloween last year, fat meatball, just sitting in the air. Do you guys remember at the barbecue that we had a few months before the

Halloween, you all showed me on your phone, something that a friend of mine who I turned on to this show made you yes that still has never seen the light of day answer here's the answer coming soon yes yes there's i know what he's talking about oh my god is we have plans connected to a live show where we would debut that you just we've been sitting in the ladder. It is so incredible. No, no, no, no. No, it's incredible. It has to wait.

It does have to wait. I just wanted to set this up. If I had said this a year ago, people would still be waiting because what you guys have is so, is so, I won't say who made it

or what kind of work they do, but this is so good. It's incredible. It's not that we've forgotten about it. In fact, it's quite the opposite. There's emails being sent. There's things being arranged. All right, we've forgotten about it. In fact, it's quite the opposite. There's emails being sent. There's things being arranged.

All right, here's my thought exercise. Jesus, we're not even at the fucking thought exercise. We haven't even played the fucking box office game. We had to leave 10 minutes ago. The first thought exercise. This is a simple yes or no.

Do you feel like in the modern world of mining every corpse of IP, any piece of Kubrick IP can ever be touched. Oh, like could there be like someone's like, I'm going to offer my take on A Clockwork Orange. Or they're doing a six episode 2001 prequel series.

Here's a few things to say on that. There is a sequel to 2001. Well, there's three books. Well, there's three books, but there is a filmed, some director, and we're going to talk about it. Some director, Peter Himes. Put some respect on Peter Himes. Put some respect on Peter Himes. Put some respect. But like he rolled up his sleeves and he was like,

2001, I'll follow that. Right, well, he had the book. He had the book. Arthur C. Clarke was like, I'll follow that three times. There's also Dr. Sleep. But that, of course, you've got the shining, you know, the Stephen King thing. I'm talking about literally being like,

we are doing... There's literally an in-world. Like, if they did 3001 now, or... I think it will happen. It's 2061, and then it will happen. You think some of the Kubrick stuff can be touched? I think someone will take a swing at one. But what would it be? Is it 2001?

It's probably 2001. It's probably 2001, but I think there was such a tight grip on this stuff for so long, that like, not just Dr. Sleep, but, like... Ready Player One. Ready Player One. I think putting the Droogs in Space Jam... I mean, just a ludicrous thing that literally happened. that Warner Brothers even was so respectful to the Kubrick estate that even if they had the legal grounds

to do something, they wouldn't because they didn't want to piss him off or earn the ire of film fans. The other thing was they always were like,

don't fucking merchandise the shit. I just texted you guys a photo of a real product that exists that is a baby doll of Alex DeLarge. I mean,

it's a toy line called the Living Dead Dolls. We've got some babies, so... Like, it looks like a child. Oh, yeah. I'll be buying this. It kind of looks like Chucky Alex DeLarge. This is, like, real Hot Topic shit, though. Yeah, absolutely.

But, like, that's a thing that was always kept at bay in the last five years, the Floodgates. I just wanted to add, though, to this quandary of yours, Wanting Seeds. Hip-hop songs. last five years the floodgates i just wanted to add though to to this uh quandary of yours wanting seeds the um the novel the anthony burgess novel before a clockwork orange is very similar in that it's a dystopian future but instead of um focusing on violence it's focusing on overpopulation and hunger and like a scarcity of food and it but it has very similar extreme themes yeah i don't know his other work at all the wanting scene that's right after right after right so you feel like either i think it's right after so in conclusion i mean this yeah i'm interested in him now that I just read this. Check.

I think you'll really like the book. It's good. So I could see that being an expansion. Like the expanded Burgess world. It's sort of a soft Clockwork Orange spinoff. Yep.

It just feels improbable that there's an entire body of iconic work that no one has pillaged for grass IP extension. His big masterpiece is Earthly Powers, which I have read.

It's the only other one I've read. This is Burgess. Burgess Corner. All right, so you guys are calling your shot. There may someday be a 2001 HBO Max

streaming show. The rush of like 2010, the follow-up novels, the Marvel comic, the Kirby shit, and then it's like they've been trying so hard to do the fucking Shining shit

for so long leading up to Doctor Sleep. Wanting to do the Overlook prequel? All this shit. Oh, right, right. Overlook. Right. I do think there will start to be more and more.

Yeah. Especially in the Zaslav. Yeah, it just feels weird and obvious that there isn't. Of course there isn't. Do we want to talk about the prodigy? The prodigy pin. Has anything better ever been said At roughly three hours of recording The Prodigy pin was pulled out

That was hip hop Sims To be clear, the Prodigy is not a hip hop Please tell us more We're an electronic music act But is there like a rapper in the group? Huh? Is there a rapper in the group? Is there another vocalist in the group

that may be sort of more in the trip-hop, hip-hop world that only you could educate us about? Wait, what the fuck are you doing now? I'm just actually wanting you to go on about the Prodigy. Oh, I don't want to go on about the Prodigy. Because there are the two, but what's the other vocalist? Maxim. Maxim Reality, I think. Maxim Reality, yes.

So what album did you mention was the one with the crab on the cover? That's Fat of the Land. That was kind of their big... That's the breakthrough. That's the one with Smack My Bitch Up and Firestarter. Wait, what the fuck album were you talking about their first album is called experience they broke in america in 98 they had been big in britain for years decades yeah oh not a decade like you know the whole 90s their first album ben ben i'm gonna send you a song you know what on my way home i'm

gonna send you a song all right you're gonna listen to it all right you are going i just want you when you listen to it it's called out of space it's from experience i just want you to imagine yourself hopped up on so many goofballs in some english fucking marsh you know with like mud around you right here glastonbury or redding or one of these one one of these festivals listening to this so many goofballs okay and Listening to this. So many goofballs. Okay. And listening to this music. How many goofballs did Teenage David take when the day music from the Gilda Generation came out? Well, I was far too young to be taking goofballs with that guy. I was like 10.

Ben, do you know what the cover is of their album before Fat of the Land? I'll show you the album. Music from the Gilda Generation? No. Why would I know that? Because maybe you like the prodigy. Once Fat of the Land became so...

I mean, I like the prodigy, but I can't retain all this information. Okay. Okay. That's kind of like a bad who's the art director for Alien stuff. It's like a bad Geiger kind of thing.

Which any EDM album band from the 90s probably should have that kind of an album cover, right? Fat of the Land is a pretty cool band. Okay, so David pulled out, without looking it up mc maxim reality yeah and with that we can play the box office game yeah all i'm gonna say david all i'm gonna say is we are very aware the prodigy is not a hip-hop group okay but it's just mere fact that you started to go deep on a prodigy tangent like that is the thing that made alex and i look at each other and go let's pin hip-hop sims needs to at least peek out the door we had texted this morning

we texted last night we were just like should we touch it or not and then when you said the prodigy thing we looked at each other and went getting close enough to happen and i'll say that if anyone is there something i could say that would bring it to the fore like there's some there there may be. Yeah, it's like an AI. You just have to read the words correctly. And suddenly... Suddenly you guys are just like, okay, here's what's going on.

Okay, we'll tell you the truth. I will say that this is something that perhaps a guest of the show... We have to play the box. We have to. If someone figures this out, they win a no prize. That's all I'll say. That's all I'll say. But be gentle.

When did Clockwork Orange come out? It came out in Christmas 1971 But I want to do January Early January, which is when it's in the top 10 Take the fan wide So this is January 72 January 1972 And it's opening on number 9 So it's not in the top 5

Number 1 is a James Bond film. In 1972. One, two, yes. It came out in one. It's a 71 carryover. Is it Diamonds Are Forever? It's Diamonds Are Forever. Right, because I knew it was pretty more.

Exactly. It's Connery's last run in Diamonds Are Forever, a very bad movie. Do you have any opinions on Diamonds Are Forever? You know, I watched all those Bond movies

when I got the three box sets. Circa World is Not Enough. And I have not revisited all but a few. I mean, a few of them I've not seen since I got those three box sets. I've enjoyed watching them more. I watched every single one of them, and I hold them all as just fond childhood memories. The power of DVD was in my hands. I had 20 Bonds in a row.

And at some point, I'd like to rewatch all of them. I saw someone on, I think the Reddit, after the Liver Let Die commentary came out, said like, they ran down all the problems with the movie, then said four out of ten

will definitely rewatch. Yeah. And like, that's how I feel with all the Moors. They're just comforting. They're just, even when they're a bad Bond movie,

it's like, look, James Bond's in it, he saw all their stuff, gadgets. Diamonds Are Forever is just, you know, just that classic

end of an actor's run where you can just feel him going through the motions yeah i can't like i can't differentiate beyond like the four core conneries what else is in there well it's the sixth connery number two at the box office go on how did i know that uh is a big weighty actor-y drama from a big director that's quite challenging it was a christmas awards 71 awards but it was not a big awards player it only gets one oscar nomination probably a little too dark in a way was it was an acting nomination yes best supporting actress the movie is too dark it does get a supporting

actress nomination it's also like maybe too frank although then again a clockwork orange is is it let me be frank it's not let me because that's very frank it is very frank the frankest that also got no acting nominations weirdly got a webby i don't think so 1971 uh it's huge actor uh who we've mentioned two huge actors or one no one and then a musician is the other leading male part huh and. And then two ladies. An actor who was mentioned today. And then a musician. And then two ladies. And one of the ladies gets nominated. Oh, it's Carnal Knowledge?

Carnal Knowledge. As we were mentioning, Jen. Nicholson, Garfunkel. And Margaret. Candy gets the nomination, right? No, and Margaret. Oh, why did I get that flip? And Margaret has two Oscar nominations.

Okay. That's cool. Yeah, it is cool. Yeah, it is. You're right. She does have two. Can D ever get nominated? Can D ever get nominated?

Candace LeBron James. She's been nominated twice, right? Starting over? No, just once. Just once for starting over. Okay. Okay. Number three is the Best Picture winner of 1971. Already mentioned. Well, it's not The Godfather.

No, that's 1972. Right. The French Connection. Yeah. A great movie. Yeah. Do you like The French Connection? Yeah.

Yeah, it rules. Yeah, it's a good movie. It's fucking cool. Popeye Doyle has a hat. Number four is another. A lot of hats in the Best Picture nominees this year. I had a year. Clockwork.

I mean, Fiddler on the Roof's probably got some hats. Definitely has some hats. Whoever hosted the Oscars should have come out wearing all the hats in the Best Picture nominees this year. Ahead of year. Clockwork. I mean, Fiddler on the Roof's probably got some hats. Definitely has some hats. Whoever hosted the Oscars should have come out wearing all the hats. Would have been like a whoopee Elizabeth bit. That would be really funny if he took off. Oh, that'd be good. Like took off the Fiddler hat and the Clockwork hats. You can just picture Billy and the Clockwork Droog get up coming out.

Only Billy had been. The host, of course, was Helen Hayes, Alan King, Sammy Davis Jr., and Jack Clement. The funniest. They should have all come out in droogs with one hat each. All right. Bring out some star from the 30s and beat them with a cane.

Number four is also a cop movie. Number four is also a huge hit. It's a huge hit. Is it Dirty Harry? It is. Is it Dirty Harry? It's Dirty Harry. Yeah. And number hit. Is it Dirty Harry? It is. Is it Dirty Harry? It's Dirty Harry. Yeah.

And number five. This is really that rush of like violence. Exactly. Breaking open on the screen. It's like the streets are not safe. Yeah. Yeah. We need a big man with a gun.

It's a wild December into January. It is. Couple of movies here. Well, so I'm saying this, like Bonnie Clyde, Dirty Harry, Clockwork Orange, and I feel like there's one other, like the four movies that are cited of like that blue violence open in America. Straw Dogs. Straw Dogs, that's the fourth one. There you go. That's number eight this week.

Number five is a big musical that was nominated for Best Picture. Oliver? No, we just mentioned it a million times. Fiddler! Fiddler on the Roof. The highest grossing film of its year. And then you've got Dollars. The Warren Beatty, Goldie Hawn comedy caper movie

Wait, wait, wait We just watched that That was on Criterion last year It's bad Really? It's a good title It's Richard Brooks Richard Brooks, yes Yeah

We were just like Huh, you know There's like 13 Warren Beatty movies total Yeah You should watch this one One of them is Dollars Richard Brooks is like Not someone I would see as a comedy caper guy

It's totally in cold blood. Yeah, it was like there's so few Warren movies. We haven't seen this one. Goldie, of course, the best. And it's just like, man, this movie is lifeless. It has a good heist scene in like a safe. Like the actual thievery of it is fun. Just in like a construction of heist movie-ness.

But man, is it dull. Well, you've also got Bedknobs and Broomsticks. Kind of a minor classic. Yeah. Tom Munson. Tom Munson and Lansbury riding a bed. Yeah. You've got Straw Dogs, previously mentioned.

You have House of Wax in re-release. Oh, wow. The Vincent Price film. Very cool. Cracking the top 10. In January. In January. Is that holding over from October?

Or did they just re-release that at Christmas it's I don't know they'd probably re-release it would they all be like 3D re-releases I would assume

yeah I don't know part of the novelty right and then O'Clocker Crunch that's your 10 Ben that was like the first like major studio

3D movie and there's like a two minute sequence where someone just paddle balls at the camera and it's like as jarring as you would especially if you don't watch it in 3D you're like what the fuck yeah no. And it's like as jarring as you would imagine.

Especially if you don't watch it in 3D. You're like, what the fuck? Yeah, no, I watched it in like 2D in high school on TV. There's a character who's like a carnival barker and he's like, here, here, here, come here. Let me show you the new tricks. It's not like a character you've met before in the film. He just fucking paddle balls the camera

for like two minutes and they're like, anyway, back to the house of wax. Yeah, that doesn't sound like uh it's good they figured it out no it's good it's really good

Alex final thoughts uh great movie great director yeah a real Ben movie oh god it's changed for me

from watching it changes every time all those years ago to getting older it's going to be a really interesting movie I think to watch as I get older and older

yeah being younger than the protagonist when I saw it but even younger than he is in the book and I'm her parent that is true I can't wait to show

show the child Clark Burgarns for the first time that'll be really huge you know at the age of 13 like I was yeah I mean to be fair

she was around while I was watching it the other day but mostly asleep. David, I do feel like we owe you an apology. Thank you. We did go very hard on the England bit this week. Only because it's just so funny. It's funny for this movie,

and it's not going to be relevant again. Anyway, tune in next week for Barry Lyndon. Well, I do think knowing the guest and the format of that episode, it will probably be lighter on bits. That's a challenge I'll take. But you on bits. That's a challenge I'll take. But you never know. That's a challenge I'll take.

Well, you may not have as willing a collaborator, I guess is what I mean. That's a challenge I'll take. Alex, thank you for coming here. Thank you for removing the pin on Hip Hop Sims. Stay tuned for that one. Stay tuned for that one. I think David's going to be so flummoxed when he hears the explanation, too. And thank you all for listening.

Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media and helping to produce the show. Thank you to Alex Barron and AJ McKeon for our editing. JJ Birch for our research. Thank you to Elaine Montgomery and The Great American Novel for our theme song.

You can go to blankcheckpod.com for links to some real nerdy shit, including our Reddit aforementioned, and also Blank Check special features, our Patreon, where we do commentaries on, right now, the Roger Moore movies, as we also just talked about. Tune in next week for Benny

Linden. I'm calling now is going to be the nickname. And as always, hip hop Sims.