Blank Check with Griffin & David - A New Leaf

Episode Date: April 4, 2021

Heavens! It’s technically April, but we’re talking MAY! The guys kick off our Elaine May mini series with her debut feature A New Leaf, while also diving deep into her history as an improv and sketch comedy trailblazer. This episode also marks the return of Ben’s nicknames, and includes a wild ride through the top box office hits of 1971. Billy Jack, anyone? Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com

Tell me about yourself, Miss Lowell. Your work, your hopes, your podcast. Tell me about yourself, Miss Lowell. Your work, your hopes, your podcast. Well, I work as a teacher. I also do field work and I write monographs. My hope is to discover a new variety of Fern that has never been described or classified. I don't know what my podcast is. Do you think it could be the same as my hope? Well, at any rate, that is my work and my hope, except for my podcast, which I'm not sure of. Two things. I love your sure of. Two things. I love your Elaine May. Thank you.

It's great. Second, what a good movie this is. You're just making me think about it again. You know who's fucking cool? Elaine May. Elaine May. Elaine May. This is the shortest miniseries we've ever done, so I'm really diving in deep.

I asked to reschedule this episode we were supposed to record it two days ago and i said can i just get like an extra two days to to build up more elaine may context and really like i want to listen to all the nichols and may albums and go into special features and reading different pieces and all this sort of stuff and i just i i i after the last week I just have the biggest fucking crush on her in the world. And I mean that in every sense. I'm just like, that's like the coolest career. You know, she's got the coolest sensibility.

She's just like a fucking awesome person. Every story about her is cool. And also, you look at those early Nickel and May performance. Mm-hmm. I mean, kind of begging for a pasta dinner. She was a very, a very beautiful woman. And is.

But yes, absolutely. I bring this up only because it is so funny that like here's Nickels and May and they're this comedy team that's sort of like a massive generational shift, right? Where you're like, oh my God,

these are these comedians who are like hip. They're like witty, they're urbane, and they are glamorous. Like Nichols and May felt glamorous and chic in a way I would argue comedians did not before that point, especially like comedy teams that were usually, you know, fucking two guys who sprayed seltzer down each other's pants or whatever.

Absolutely, yes i yes it's funny because i nichols looks like such a goof all the time in those pictures because he's so tall and gangly and like he's got the blonde hair and yeah but like but yeah whereas she is just like so stylish and and yet unassumed like you know she's can make fun of herself and like that's of course part of the magic she was almost always playing high status in those sketches uh and then you know she wants to direct films she wants to write films they let her make this film they insist that she star in it which she doesn't want to do and it's like here's elaine may who if you look at nichols and may career you're like well of course she was bound to be a movie star. And she sort of like begrudgingly allows herself to be the co-star of this movie and plays the least glamorous character in the history of cinema.

Absolutely. She absolutely could have been like Barbara Stanwyck. You know, she could have had like, you know. I'm nodding. She could have been Jill Kleberg. She could have been likeill clayberg she could have been like a goldie hawn you know i mean she could have there are a lot of things she could have done as an actress in film that she it feels like pointedly had no interest in doing that's the whole thing we're going to dissect over the next month yeah over april april because april is may this year

my friends. Oh, what's that? Oh, man, that's me hitting my knee, because that's a dang knee slapper, baby. It's a dang knee slapper. Look, we're going to engage in some Nichols and May-esque high wire comedy of our own. This is a little podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

I'm David. I'm David. You got it. You got this. The David's so nice. He said it twice. And this is a podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their career and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want.

And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. Baby. And this is a miniseries on the films of Elaine May, a far too short career, but one that really has humongous ripples. And it is called The Podbright Cast. Today we are talking her debut film, the only one that she stars in, A New Leaf. That's right, my friend. A New Leaf. A New Leaf with Walter Matthau and the great james coco correct i forced a pod break cast uh without getting confirmation from you guys i just felt

like it had to be the title because the only other real option was pod cash tar now you know we often say that they're the only people are gonna come at us with like but what about potty and casty and first of all they're literally only four titles we could work with you know but then they start they they come up with quotes that they work you know the title into or they they turn a characters they've got all kinds of stuff they lob at us pod lane may cast exactly right they cram it into the director's name look i agree with you i think the prod break cast that's what we're doing i already forgot it's so clean it sticks in your head it's mr clean that is the the baldest uh miniseries title ever i call it the baldest one because it's Mr. Clean. Now, can I say something?

Yeah. David, there is, in fact, a third person on this podcast. True. And this is a guestless episode, so we can take the time to introduce him. A thing that has not been retired, but has been benched just because our episodes are already long. And what I'm about to do will take several minutes. So you're going to do it. Oh, God, it will take several minutes. So you're going to do it. Oh, God, it's going to happen. Okay, you want to do it.

All right, okay. David, you and I are hashtag the two friends. I'm going to go make like a dinner. But yeah, go ahead. Yeah, we're the two friends. That's our competitive advantage. We're two friends. And we're the two hosts of this show.

The third person on mic right now is not a host. No, he's the producer. He's the producer, and people have called him Producer Ben, Produer Ben, the Ben Deucer, the Poet Laureate, the Meat Lover, the Tiebreaker, the Fart Detective, our finest film critic, the Peeper, Birthday Benny, Hello Fennel, not Professor Crispy. He is not

Professor Crispy. No, he's not. He is the Fuckmaster. He is Dirt Bike Benny. He is White Hot Benny. He is Soaking Wet Benny. He is the Haas. He is Mr. Positive. He's Mr. Haasitive. He's a close personal friend of Dan Lewis. The Voice of Reason. Santa Haas. The Kamish. And of course, as recently gifted to him

by our friend, Iowa Debris. He is Wishful Ben. Yeah, I don't remember what the context of that was. What was the context of that? I don't either. I don't either. Our mythology is impossible to keep track of at this point. I forgot about Santa Haas. That's an old one.

The Voice of Reason is when Sonia called you the Voice of Reason. I remember that one. Yes. Oof, boy. I don't remember that. Was the Booker on that list? Yeah. No, the Booker wasn't on the list.

That's an important one. I feel like you do most of the booking these days. That's true. i suppose you like to get it on the book but there's another wrinkle we haven't discussed here what's that he does have a tendency to graduate to certain titles at the end of each mini series yeah right like for example if i could just list a few and by a few i mean all producer ben kenobi kylo ben ben knight, Ben Knight Shyamalan, Ben Sate, Save Anything, dot, dot, dot, Ailey Benz with the dollar sign, Warhaz, Perdue or Bane, Ben 19, The Fennel Maker, RoboHaz, Ben Glitch, Mr. Ben Credible, E-Drink, Ben Hosley, Beetle Vape Juice, The Hosliday, Public Benemies, Hossica of the Ditch of the Jersey, Stop Making Bens, Haas Pig in the City, Ben Hosley Met Sally, dot, dot, dot, and The Secret Life of Benz. Now, I bring this up because we're a couple short

we're two behind because so we didn't do a Zemeckis one and we didn't do a Musker and Clements yes and now I feel like so those have to be mauled

I mean do you have any off the top of your head Griffin I don't I just want to set this up maybe that's a goal by the end of this episode sometimes the reddit will come up with a nickname and i'll notice it and i'll be like ha you know

uh but uh uh then i don't remember i'm i'm sort of scanning the reddit now is it welcome maybe welcome to ben ben mark welcome to mar ben was definitely one of them but but welcome to ben ben is almost funny here um i should mention by the way we're talking about ben hosley is the is the person question hello yes the close here as well of dan lewis that's your favorite bit is is uh the close personal friend of it's it I mean, of course, it's not a bit. We don't do bits on this show. No. Yeah. Never.

I'll say this. I feel like, you know, you started doing that bit years ago, right? It stemmed out of you referring to him as Dan. Sure. And we were joking about how, what gives you the right to be that familiar

with Daniel Day-Lewis? And you said, well, I'm a close personal friend. Everything Daniel Day-Lewis has done surrounding his quote-unquote retirement from acting makes me think the two of you

would actually get along very well. I agree. Yeah. Get bad tattoos, vape. Right. Yeah. And like,

Paul Thomas Anderson talks about every time he tried to talk him into doing a movie, he was like, he just wants to sit on the couch and watch like Man vs. Food and stuff. Sure. Right? No, it's Naked and Afraid. Naked and Afraid, I think, is the one that Daniel Day-Lewis loves. Fair enough. I turned him on to Alone, that show where people go out into the woods.

Is what I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We got a big kick out of the recent season a guy eats a woodchuck like day three and gets really sick of course shouldn't have done that really sick and just shouldn't eat a woodchuck yeah well he was starving you know but sure he's like this tough military trained guy he's a woodchuck and he's like pooping his pants and they have to fly him out in a helicopter and you and dan were just slapping knees we're dying because he talks such a strong game he's like i'm gonna survive 80 days no problem and he's pooping and crying oh god how long could you do that i could do that for like one day. I could do it one minute.

I just remembered the other Ben nickname suggestion I really liked. What was that? The Great Mouse Fart Detective. Oh, wow. Oh, it's locking in. Ben, if you can play some kind of lock sound. Just like a cha-chunk. That's okay. Oh, my God. You know what I'm thinking about right now griffin what uh just just by some circumstance 88 year old elaine iva berlin aka elaine may

finding out about this podcast learning like how to listen to it or whatever like you know loading it up on her her podcast app and just listening to this first it or whatever, like, you know, loading it up on her podcast app and just listening to this first 15 minutes and being like, what the fuck is this? I thought they were talking about my movies or something. He wants to take me out to a pasta dinner and then they spend 18 minutes talking about this guy's nicknames. Who's this horny little twerp talking about how sexy I was?

She would break me. In the fucking 60s or whatever. Yeah, I also think, I say this with great consideration, I do think she is, of all the directors we've covered, the least likely to ever listen to this show, including the directors who are currently dead.

Yeah. I think it would be easier to get a non-living filmmaker to listen to this show than elaine may i just cannot imagine her even considering wasting her time on this i just imagine saying the word podcast tour and her going like oh no that's all right i don't i don't need i don't need that's okay yeah uh i i saw her i'll probably talk about this fucking every episode but i saw her uh they did a screening of is this fucking every episode, but I saw her, uh, they did a screening of Ishtar probably about 10 years ago.

And she did a Q and a afterwards at nine second street. Why? Uh, and I hadn't seen the movie before. I mostly went because I was like, Ishtar, that's not available on Blu-ray. It wasn't at that point, uh, such notorious film. And she never does public appearances. I should see this. That's what got me really into her as a filmmaker.

I worked backwards from there. But someone asked her what she thought of the Heartbreak Kid remake, and I believe her answer was no. Good answer. Yeah. Right. It's a no. It's a no.

I respect it. I respect Elaine May. She has been, I would say, a mold topic for this podcast from the beginning. She's been on a couple March Madness brackets, I feel like. I believe she's been on every one. Every single one. That's probably true. Yeah.

So, you know. That's probably true. Here we are. That's probably true. That's probably true. Here we are. That's probably true. And last year, or, well, maybe even two years ago,

you thought it would be funny if April was May. That's what you told me. That's not true. That's not true. I thought it would be hilarious. If April was May, because Elaine May has made four films, and the month of April has four weeks, like most months. Clean. So wouldn't it be funny if April was May? Not May.

Not if May was May. Too easy. Too obvious. So we have structured a lot around the fact that we want April to be May. Absolutely. People need to understand we always take one week off every year. We go dark the week between Christmas and New Year's, and we didn't do that this year solely so that April could be May. It was the only way for the schedule to fit. There were two things that were paramount. We had to talk the walk before 2020 was over, and April had to be May. Correct. And those two things happened, and we just had to record an ad-less episode, which was no big deal. But but still it was funny that we did that i i am looking at the spreadsheet here somehow we lost 20 million dollars on talking the walk 2020

shit fuck i shouldn't have made the budget for that episode 20 million dollars that was my mistake right we shouldn't because most episodes of this show cost a hundred dollars we probably shouldn't have then made one episode cost 20 million dollars and also have it be the only episode without ads in three years well because jd interviewed that guy and so i he said he wanted to take a jumbo jet that only he was in to talk to him and let's make something jd is uh uh absolutely following uh health protocols he did not interview that guy in the same room. He took a jumbo jet to a hotel room where he zoomed with the guy. Exactly.

But this hotel room, it was one of those ones where it has a bathtub and a giant champagne glass. It was a very fancy hotel room that he stayed in alone. JD also demanded that even though he was only staying in one room, that the hotel had to rent out to him every room for sound purposes.

Just to be just to be and then to be safe. Yes. I mean. If we were joking two minutes ago about Elaine May not knowing how to process the bullshit that we've been talking about uh i i don't even know how to describe what she would be doing at this point it's something beyond unsubscribing you know it's it's it's she would she would temporal pincer movement this show she would sue us let's be clear she would she would launch a lawsuit against said she'd be right to do so now here's the thing i realized uh you know elaine may i i would argue was the most famous and successful person before starting her film directing career that we've ever covered on

the show the only person who comes close is nora affron and i go huh that's kind of interesting that two of the only four five female directors we've covered are the ones who had a big notable career before actually making a film. I don't think that is coincidental. I think especially because you look at Nora Ephron starting in the 80s and 90s. Elaine May is starting in the 70s. It's still a very unfair sexist industry that does not give women enough chances behind the camera. But especially in earlier decades, if you were going to convince a studio

to let you direct a film as a woman, you need to have bona fides, right? You look at how overqualified Elaine May was by the time she made her first film, and it is wild. Honestly, the third person is probably Nancy Meyers in that she was already an oscar-nominated screenwriter like you know if you think because like when we talk about like you know james cameron or or christopher nolan saw like those guys did not toil making like

cheap ass movie like you know they didn't just emerge out of nowhere but they were not you know famed raconteurs essentially you know who then were like, I want to make a little movie. And they were like, well, all right, if you insist, you know. Right. Like not only were they not public figures, but I feel like very few, if any of the directors we've covered, even worked as screenwriters for other filmmakers before they started making their films. Most of the people we cover don't have that trajectory. And as you said, that's what,

uh, Nancy Meyers did. She had Oscar nominations under her belt and Elaine May and, uh, nor Efron were like, had to establish themselves as two of the greatest wits in America in order to get to direct films. Um,

absolutely. But, but they, they were so culturally seismic. I mean, we should get in a little bit to Elaine May's backstory. Yes. Born in Pennsylvania, Philadelphia. The great city of brotherly love.

She feels like such a fundamentally New York person to me. I believe she lived all over because her parents were in like the traveling Yiddish theater scene, right? So she was just everywhere. Right. She sort of got that like the Buster Keaton childhood where she was always taught to be in show business from her earliest ages. You know, she was being taught routines. She was understanding how to play in front of a crowd uh probably at the same time that she was learning how to walk and talk right um because so yeah so they toured the

country her father dies when she's 11 they move to los angeles she drops out of high school when she's 14 years old she marries a toy inventor when she's 16 years old and has a child with him when she's 17 she has genie berlin uh who goes on to be an actress herself she's with that guy for years they were married for like 12 years i think uh and then she marries another guy friend that's like a very brief marriage but somewhere in there in the in the uh in the well no it's in the 50s actually she moves to chicago and that's where she's you know she's auditing classes sure but what she you know starts to get interested in is uh is you know improv is is improv comedy with uh skinny old mike nichols you know i mean we and we had a somewhat similar thing where he had a family

and multiple children before he even started to get into film. But here she is. She's a woman. She's in her 20s, but she's already been married for a decade and has a child about 10 years old by the time she even starts to, you know, get back into acting in a serious way. Right. Joins the Compass Players. That was her big thing. I mean, that was, right, she was one of the founding members. Yes. She's a charter member, yes. Yes. And the Compass Players are one of those groups

that are just sort of like, I mean, I know her initial group, obviously Mike Nichols was in it, Shelley Berman was in it, who was kind of the major precursor to Bob Newhart. He did these albums inside Shelly Berman, outside Shelly Berman, where he was the original kind of like phone call comedian. He's Larry David's dad.

He's Larry David's dad. That's how you might know him, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I just want to make it clear because I feel like he doesn't get enough respect. I love Shelly Berman. Legendary. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

His whole thing was the thing that Bob Newhart later really popularized which is your routine is one person conversations right what are you saying oh it's my thing you know like right yeah right he'd literally hold a phone up on stage um but also uh what's his name uh sills uh paul sills was part of the original group who later goes on to found the second city but also you know who else was in there uh was a company member uh del close you heard of this truth in comedy but i'm saying del close comes later ed asner comes a little bit later alan alda comes a little bit later am i wrong about that i think closes with it because close and may and nichols like and um what's his name um theodore flicker they're

the ones who like they they like codify like the principles of improv and stuff you know what i mean like they're the ones who start to write things down on on all that and then nichols and may are like we're out of here we're going to new york and del close it's like i'm staying in chicago forever truth and comedy well I mean, they were the performers, and Del was the guy who was going to just go on to teach, which is kind of a thing that happens in just the arts in general. Did he ever make a Herald team, though? He formed Herald teams.

Did he ever make one, though? Well, I mean, David, that's why we've got to really investigate your language here. He made a Herald team, but he never made Herald Night, if that makes sense. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. He never made a Herald Night. Let's just say, I mean, obviously, also Ed Asner, Alan Alder, Jane Alexander, Valerie Harper, Barbara Harris, Linda Lavin, Jerry Stiller. I mean, a lot of big people came out of Compass Players, but also, you know,

all these major schools of modern improv come out of there. And they really kind of revolutionized American comedic improvisation as an art form. If you want to lay blame, you can also place it at their feet for what it's turned into. That's what I'm trying to build here right i'm like is elaine pay responsible for our biggest national catastrophe no i'm kidding who come on but wouldn't you say wouldn't you say though that it started more as it's an art form but the idea was to to showcase it live but then to to take what you created out of that and make sketches. Yes.

Or to like develop a routine out of it. Right, it was a little less of the, right, of the like, no, it's just whatever happens that night and that's for everyone to remember and like it never happens again and it's magic we're creating and it's, you know,

that's part of the magic that you'll never do it again. Yes. And that was, you know, the cornerstone of Second City and what it was founded to do. I mean, the Second City Mainstage still is, you know, if you go see a Second City, I was going to say now, but you obviously can't. But a Second City Mainstage show has the mainstage company doing new sketches that they've written, which they've derived from improv, but also doing classics. And if you went to go see a mainstage show, whenever they reopen, they might be doing a

Nichols and May sketch, you know, or like a Bob Odenkirk, Chris Farley sketch or a Sedaris Colbert sketch. It's the whole time. They just have an archive of, of sketches written by like some of the most prolific comedians of all time going back like like decades and decades it's really incredible yeah like the um the like uh down by the river matt foley in a van that that was like bob odenkirk wrote that yeah second city and they put it up like ah just shit like that makes me just yeah it's so cool you know that that that shit's so funny i know that's the least interesting thought in the world but it's so fucking funny i know it's a bad motivational speaker his weird thing is is he threatens you with ending up living in a van down by a river which

he is doing but also that's so. That sketch is just like diamond cut. That sketch is just, it has zero fat. Every element of it is funny. And it only makes sense when you look at how sloppy SNL often is, even when they're good, that that was a sketch

that was performed for like years, you know, was just refined and refined, refined. Right. And then even still, I know on the day, Farley did a bunch of shit that he had never done before which is why no one can stop laughing in that sketch that's a

perfect sketch that's a perfect sketch it's a perfect sketch but yeah and then it's partly right it's a perfect sketch because it's diamond cut like you say but also right he like does the weird thing with the glasses and spade loses it because he's like, I didn't know you were going to do it. The belt adjusting thing. It's also just, for me, one of the greatest reversals in sketch comedy is what do you want to do when you grow up? I want to live in a van down by the river. Well, you'll have plenty of time for living in a van

down by the river when you're living in a van down by the river. So good. But yes, I mean, Nichols and May are a direct sort of predecessor to all of this. I mean, really so much of what we consider American sketch comedy today. You know, this transition from things that were more indebted to the Yiddish that are, I mean, sort of Borscht, Belty, vaudeville, sort of more gag based things and more character based, you know, game based scenes that had dramatic arcs, even though they were sketches. You know, all that sort of stuff comes out of Nichols and May. And obviously so much of it was the basis and improv was to try to get a conversational feel, to try to not have to reverse engineer a sketch from a big joke, you know,

so that you can actually make something that is behavioral and well-observed and the humor comes out of that. Were you watching some of these sketches, Griff? I was. A lot of them are hard to find. They did a lot of commercials, which are incredible, both live-action commercials and animated commercials. And the animated ones are fascinating

because they're like the now modern trend of people taking podcasts and animating them. Yes, right. People have done that for us and they do it for other shows. Ricky Gervais obviously made an entire show out of it. Let me just double check this. The funniest TV show ever made

and definitely not the most lazy. I did like that podcast when I was a teen. Of course. I love the podcast. It was a radio show. Yeah, that is when i was a team of course i love the podcast radio radio show yeah that is uh the laziest tv show of all time it's just poorly done it's just poorly done it was a little poorly i saw someone do a fan animation of doughboys uh like a week ago online infinitely better so much better they're great you know independent animators out there who are using podcasts as inspiration doing great work and these uh nickels and may commercials are like that

they have like cool limited upa cell animation and they're able to sort of transform these voices of characters they do but it also feels like you know my chronology might be off here but the two are happening around the same time nickelsolson May and Jim Henson are both sort of weird artists who are using commercials and turning them into an artistic medium to a certain degree, right? It's like the commercial agencies want to use the cachet of these hip artists to actually make things that are genuinely funny or have artistic integrity and aren't just showcasing a product. And they find a way to strike a balance of doing something they can actually be proud of and just how can we give the bare minimum of attention to whatever beer or cigarettes or

coffee that we're selling, you know? And if you look at those Nichols & May commercials, the Henson commercials, they're still so funny and you can't imagine anyone making them today. They would do appearances on late night shows uh but their big thing obviously was they spun off from the compass players they felt like the team within the compass players at large that really had the magic chemistry and nichols talks about how elaine may was just right there from day one when he joined uh you know when he saw them perform and asked if he could join, she was clearly the superstar and he joined and was not good that, you know, he kept on going to Sills and going, I'm bad. You should cut me and Sills would go. You're going to get good eventually.

Someday you'll get good. And he was like, it took maybe a year until they were like, oh, my God, Mike, you played a character. You figured out how to do a character. But it was very much an evolution to him finding that he was the perfect missing piece to everything Elaine May did. And a lot of it was class commentary. You know, you know, she comes from the Yiddish theater. He's, you know, an immigrant. He lives leaves, you know, Nazi occupied Germany, you know, gets out barely with his family and comes to the States. And he had been this sort of very arrogant, you know, smart-alecky dude who had coasted through life. And Compass Players, he said, was the first time that he actually, like, wanted to work hard. He wanted to get better at something. So they really take off. They're sort of the breakout of those shows in

Chicago. They go, we should go to New York. We should make it. They go see agents. They get repped by a big New York talent agent who I forget the name, but who represent a lot of the big club comedians at the time. And they're doing like the Village Vanguard and Cafe Wa, whatever. And eventually it leads to, I think Arthur Penn is the one who sees them, who at that point is still mostly a theater director and actor studio guy. And he says, we should take this to Broadway. guy and he says we should take this to broadway uh yeah it's jack rollins is the guy who's their correct manager right you know who's later woody allen's manager yeah uh yes um and at that point yeah they're they're doing tv appearances they're doing commercials but they do the broadway show and it's humongous sellout show you can listen to some of it you know on spotify or what have you with like uh it's called an evening with mike nichols and elaine may that's like the album they put out that was like a best selling album they have their three albums which are immaculate each one's 30 minutes long can't

recommend enough yeah they're very very funny that's what i've been listening to uh what's examined doctors that's another one of them and uh then music. Improvisations to Make. There's a few, yeah. In Retrospect. Retrospect's a compilation. No, it's Improvisations to Music. Right. It's Improvisations to Music, Exam and Doctors,

and A Night with the... An Evening. Just An Evening. Just An Evening. The adultery is my favorite scene. Yes. Or sketch or whatever. From that one, once they get to the french

it's just like it's like every line is like a laugh line like it's so fucking good but what's so fascinating about watching them or listening to them and i found let me double check what this thing is called uh i think it's called nickels and Take Two, but it's like a documentary, I want to say, from the 90s where they interview a bunch of people who were influenced by them, like Robin Williams and Steve Martin. Yes, it's called Nichols and May Take Two. It's about an hour long. Yes. And they interview all these people who are inspired by them and people who worked with them, but also they include a lot of sketches on video full length. And it is so fascinating watching them. They don't really have traditional setup punchlines like a lot of sketches do. They don't have the same sort of

obvious game playing that a lot of sketches do. So much of the comedy just comes from how well observed it is. They are heightenings of types of people and behaviors that we all know that people had never crystallized before that point. And even still, 60, 70 years later, they still feel like, oh my God, I can't believe how well they're capturing this thing.

And she, right, it was, she's playing like professionals versus playing like, you know, harridans or housewives or battle axes or whatever the traditional. She's always very high status. Yes. She's status yes she's the high self-possessed yes right uh there's an amazing sketch with the two of them as teenagers in a car uh sort of nickels trying to lose his virginity uh there's a sketch that is uh may haranguing nickels as her son for not calling her enough and he's literally a rocket scientist who is working on the first NASA mission.

And she's just guilt tripping him about everything. And I think it's Rollins says it is astonishing because I know, I know firsthand how much that was based on her mother. And yet you watch it and it is everyone's mother. And it truly is. There's something primal that she taps into. And that was so much of their comedy of just like the sketch opens up. And once the audience recognizes, oh, these are two nervous kids who are debating whether or not to have sex in a car, they start laughing.

They just start laughing. And the laughs come from either the situation is so funny that everything happens and is so funny or everything they say is just so spot on. Have you seen the sketch i think they did it literally on the emmys where she comes out as a presenter dead serious they introduce her as like you know and she's what half of what of america's hottest comedy teams elaine may and then she comes out like she's presenting an award and the award is for excellence in mediocrity she goes like right we have spent so much of tonight talking about those who are great at their craft but what if the other people and

she's got her like chin up in the air and she's got her can i make up and her sleek black dress and everything she's playing it totally straight and so they announced they're giving the award to the most mediocre man in the entertainment industry and then nickels is that guy planted in the audience and comes up and gives an acceptance speech and they just do it in the middle of the award show and they play it totally straight it's unbelievable and there's a specificity to just how nickels plays the body language of sneaking through the aisle asking people to stand up so he can go accept the award. The sort of arrogance. Yeah.

It's the 1959 Emmys. If you want to Google it, guys, it's on YouTube. It's very funny. Richard Nixon presents right before them. It's like Nixon giving a very straight, like, this is what makes America great. And then Nichols and Nate get up. Television's just wonderful, isn't it?

Right. And they're making fun of, like, award shows being back patty in 1959. Hey, they were. Yeah. You know who's funny, though? That Bob Hope. Sorry, go on.

Hey, Bob Hope is kind of funny. I like the golf club thing. He's pretty funny. Which I learned about on Simpsons. I like when he sings Thanks for the Memories. That always makes me laugh. That's such a good bit. Yeah. They performed at kennedy's birthday which is where marilyn monroe did the famous happy birthday mr president it's just crazy like that they were they have like they've saw that they're so part of culture they influence comedy in this massive

way it's like and then the movies they made like they're they're really um man we're gonna really nerd this is the thing and and like obviously the three of us were not alive for this but when you dig into it it is just actually hard to process how massive they were, how much they changed the temperature of comedy and how comedians were perceived, but also how how much they were part of like the cultural elite, that they were at the center of the national discourse in that way and that everything they started sort of like bleeds out into everything else you know both from the people who are influenced by their routines and the work that they then continue to do in other forms okay but do you know what my favorite bob hope oscar line is though because everyone knows

welcome to the academy awards or as it's known in my house passover right that's a funny one because he didn't win the awards it's the joke right pass him over he was my favorite we're all here to celebrate oscar as he's known in my house the fugitive that's pretty funny it's pretty good look the thing about nickels and may is they're they're like i mean how many people went out on top like right like obviously it's like seinfeld they ended the show when they were number one like what are the examples like that right How many people went out on top? Obviously, it's like Seinfeld. They ended the show when they were number one. What are the examples like that?

Andrew Dice Clay. Andrew Dice Clay, yeah. The Dice Man, obviously. But they can do this for years. Not only could they have done it for years, but they could have become like Martin and Lewis. They could have transferred it to different mediums. They could have done a lot of different things.

And instead they totally split up, which was very much her choice. Nichols was basically was, yeah, she was like, we're not going to be able to keep this fresh. It's time to end it. And she was,

I'm tired of it. I mean, she felt impatient. Yeah, right. Exactly. And Nichols was like, it was cataclysmic is,

is how he puts it. Like he, he just, he, he didn't know what to do with himself and you know and we joke about this but you know we're gonna joke about this but right he was like what should i do i guess i'll just be a generationally successful filmmaker i guess that's what i have to do with myself oh no right i mean he's the only person to win an EGOT and a Peabody, I think. Is that right? Wow. Right.

A Peagot? He won the Peagot. Yeah. Let's see. He got a whole... Yeah, he did. Good for him. Good for you, Nichols. Wow.

Because the Grammy is for Nichols and May. Yeah. Right. The Grammy is always the one that gets you because you essentially have to be someone who's musically inclined or else you have to win through a comedy album or through like a spoken word, a book on tape. That's so much harder to do. I think I've said this before, but what I'm striving for in my career is an EGOT. Okay, go ahead. So there's two G's in there. okay go ahead so that there's two g's in there right so it's uh emmy golden globe oscar tone i feel like right that way i don't ever have to get into a recording studio again right um yeah well mike nichols has one oscar one grammy four emmys nine tonys pretty impressive amount of tonys including seven for directing it's not like he got a bunch of producing tony see you know those anyway and and elaine may has a has a gin and tonic right she has

a grammy and a tony right yes uh she never won an oscar that's for sure yeah uh she obviously won a grammy uh she certainly won a tony for the waverly gallery had she won before then i don't know maybe i believe she was the oldest winner ever i think that's right or maybe second old she was a very uh did you see the waverly gallery when it was on broadway this was only last year yeah i mean i'm i'm fucking all about kenny lonergan i never miss a lonergan production he's my favorite playwright uh and i love elaine may she was unbelievable in that show uh i mean it was one of those yes it did not seem like some kindly career reward when she won that it was just everyone was just like oh well yeah she's winning that yeah that's i mean that's yes uh lock stock um so elaine may so but this is the no this is

the thing right nickels she she breaks it off with Nichols professionally. She moves to theater first, Griffin. Adaptation is her best known work. Am I right in remembering you were in a production of that or something? Like a high school? Am I making this up? Why are we talking about this? I don't know. I saw her.

They did that show maybe about 10 years ago now that was called Relatively Speaking or something. Yeah, the one-act plays. The three one-acts, and it was Woody Allen, her, and Joel Cohen. It was Ethan Cohen. Ethan Cohen, I'm sorry. And hers was the only one that really stood on its own, but it was pretty incredible. It was called George is Dead. Yes, and it was with marlo thomas who was uh unreal in it but uh yes she went to theater pretty quickly i think because it was easier to

uh uh sort of throw her weight in theater be given control and also that words are more respected there she had to put up less of a fight yeah but it's it's basically 10 years of that 10 years of theater before she's moving to movies with a new leaf the film we're here to discuss today right 1971's a new leaf she has that short-lived marriage in the middle where she's married for two years which happens right around the time that she may break up right and then that marriage ends she immediately remarries with the man she's with until his death in the 80s david rubin fine who she's with through the early 80s he dies and then in late in life she was her like companion was stanley donan director of singing in the rain yeah she was with donan for like the last 30 years yeah he just died this year last he just died and he said i tried you know

i asked her to marry me a billion times but but no more weddings for her. Singing in the Rain, a great movie. That one's good. It's got two things I love. Singing and water. It's true. It's a wet sing-along, that one. It's wet as hell. At this point, we've already done our March Madness bracket.

People will know who has won. I really wanted to put Stanley Donen in but he is just it's hard to shrink down let me take a look at that that's interesting i've never thought about i mean i i'd love to do it i thought about a lot because i i i love a lot of the weird donans like the stanley donan little prince i love yeah you really love the Little Prince. It is a lot. What's that about? It's about un petit prince. A little boy.

Yeah. A fancy little boy. It's so good. Who lives on the planets, lives on the moon. But I love Charade, obviously. Yeah. I love Singing in the Rain.

It's pretty undeniable, I would say. I love On the Town. I think On the town fucks uh you know right i mean seven brides for seven brothers it is sort of one of the weirdest movies ever made very strange but gorgeous to look at the pajama game is good i haven't seen a lot of these you know he's got like 25 movies i know there are a couple that's why i didn't put him on it's the only reason i just couldn't figure out any way to shrink it down he works for us though because he like made saturn three like you know there's stuff

in there where you're like oh the late ones are weird like that's the thing little prince is him like trying to figure out how to make an old-timey musical in new hollywood a movie movie is very bizarre movie movies like the original grindhouse where it's two short films that are like pastiches of the 30s i think it's three i think it's there's like a 30s boxing film a war one drama and like a musical right there's there's a fake trailer that's what it is it's a musical boxing drama and a fake trailer in between uh it's wild uh bedazzled i mean it's a great career anyway yeah we can talk about Peter Cook. I mean, look, we'll do it.

We're just going to have to do it. Yeah, we'll do it at some point. Funny face, that's a big one. I mean, this is a lot. Anyway, sorry, go on. She makes this movie. She signs the deal to do a new leaf in 1968. And what year is Virginia Woolf?

67? 66, I think 66 who's afraid of Virginia 66 1966 Mike Nichols now I've seen people sometimes complain that we ascribe too much strategic thought to

movements in Hollywood and say like well this was successful so everyone was doing this and they say like well it's not that deliberate. It's just Hollywood's a reactive business. They chase trends. And that is what we're trying to say, right? People follow trends or they get scared off of things because of failures. And I do think to some degree, Elaine May had retreated, right?

She was still doing work. But across this decade after they break up, right? She was still doing work. But across this decade after they break up, Nichols becomes like the most beloved, adored, awarded theater director before he even gets to make a film. That's true. But then right. But then in movies, he's the new hotness. Like, because who's afraid of Virginia Woolf? This movie is shocking. People are like, I can't believe they made a movie out of that play because it's so right. And then The Graduate is like, it's a year later and it's a revolution. It's like, oh, my God, no one ever made a movie out of that play because it's so yeah right you know and then the graduate is like it's a year later and it's it's a revolution it's like oh my god no one ever made a movie about a young person feeling bad before it's one of the most successful movies of all time it's generation defining and he wins the oscar for best director so i just imagine at

that point hollywood is clamoring and going like if nichols worked this well as a director we should let may direct something now it might be part of it i mean or maybe she was interested by the fact that he was i have no i don't know what the arc of it i don't know why she finally takes the move to hollywood i don't i know that obviously she's uh basing this on this story the green heart which she reads in like an alfred hitchcock mystery magazine uh like that you know and so she like writes a script and submits it to paramount or what you know right like you know she's like here's what i want to do but i don't know right if they're like elaine it's time you gotta you know you gotta follow in mike's footsteps or i don't know you tell me i don't know i will

say i i have the uh uh olive film special edition blu-ray of A New Leaf, which is really good. It's a beautiful transfer. And I tried listening to it with the commentary. And the problem is commentary is good, but it's very academic. And I got I just watching it with the commentary on. I was longing to hear the movie. This is this is I have this problem with commentaries all the time right i was like i can't turn this off often i do and i was trying to you know cut out the time to watch it two times but i just like you know i'd seen the film pretty

recently so i was like well i've seen it without commentary recently i could do it but i just was so i couldn't resist just watching the movie itself again even if you've just watched the movies sometimes there's just like that's just how it like even if you're just like well but this is a funny moment i want it like you know like and then i anyway i agree with you i really struggle with commentaries for that exact reason i didn't when i was younger but i don't know maybe it's just there's a lot of movies to watch it's also funny to think, Griffin, that at this point, Mike Nichols is already on the rebound as a director because he comes out of the gate so hot

with those first two movies. Then he tackles Catch-22 for his third movie. I mean, you know, this sprawling major American work, right? Where it's like, oh shit, like he's shooting for the stars and that thing's a flop. And then in 1971, same year as this, he's doing Carnal Knowledge, that thing's a flop and then but 1971 same year as

this he's doing carnal knowledge which is kind of his like his rebound okay get back stripping it back right we're we're just we're getting shocking and intimate again and it's all performance and yeah like he's you know he i will do him on the show one day because it's a great run okay this is what it's saying man sorry ben what are you gonna say well it's just you know you rattle off 71 and as somebody who loves music loves the history of music it's just like it's so crazy to me to think about culturally what was going on in theater and music and movies i i i. I almost said unfortunately. I mean, it's not unfortunate.

I really think that that was maybe the best time for art or one of the best times or something. Do you know what I mean? Do you guys disagree? This is my favorite time for movies. The early 70s is my favorite era. They're going to be making a movie about a multiverse of madness next year. I mean, I'm just trying to point this out to you, okay? Like, Doctor Strange is returning. era what they're gonna be making a movie about a multiverse of madness next year i mean i just

just trying to point this out to you okay like dr strange is returning that's true no i agree with you but i agree yeah ben also i mean this year is gonna put on you know hopefully god willing if theaters have reopened on the biggest screen imaginable the opportunity to see the biggest reddest dog you could imagine this guy is no ordinary sized dog and i need you to understand no no well and i love him for that and he has the name of your favorite movie character too so that's that's he's got that going for him yes that's true uh it's a good uh charles broden miniseries this is what it says on the wikipedia and there's no citation but this lines up with what I remember hearing. May wrote a new leaf from Richie's short story, but she never intended to act in or direct the picture.

I think she just liked the material. She was originally offered $200,000 for the script, but her agent cut a deal with Paramount so that May could direct and he could produce. I think that was unbeknownst to her. with Paramount so that May could direct and he could produce. I think that was unbeknownst to her. She was paid only $50,000, as her agent told her, a first-time director could not expect such a large sum of money. Then they told her, Paramount said, if you want to make this, it has to be Matthau. Matthau's the only guy that will give you a green light for.

They wanted to be Matthau and Carol Channing. She said Carol Channing would not be able to disappear into the role. It's probably true. I agree. Yes. So they, she said, can I pick someone else? And they said,

the only other person we would let you put in the role is you. Uh, yes. They basically bully her into being in the movie. There was someone else she thought about. I can't, maybe not. I thought I could have sworn.

I read some article where she, but yes, Carol Channing was their original choice. That was their thing. said it's carol channing or you you pick yeah exactly she was like i can't pick and they were like you can pick you that's that's your choice if you wish you know to do that uh because right she wanted it to be mathau's movie essentially yeah like you know she was like the the woman needs to be someone who will actually will not compete for laughs and for like you know kind of presence because the whole point is that this guy is so fucking dominant and she is so sort of you know wallflower right like i think that's that's why she's afraid of

like a carol channing she's gonna you know carol channing is gonna want her laughs the lady's a pro yes uh that having said it means she gets nominated for a golden global award for this movie you know she fucking absolutely rock bottoms this movie it's incredible before she puts it through a table but like with god is my witness she gives this movie the people's elbow exactly but i'm just saying like but she also knows that like it's funnier she's just like in a corner kind of mumbling to herself sometimes. Absolutely. But but her contract is incredibly well set up, despite the fact that she's not well paid. She gets final cut, even though that later becomes a point of much contention.

And they put a clause in the movie that they cannot fire her without paying out a penalty of two hundred thousand dollars, which is more than they're paying her to act direct and write at this point. So they thought about firing her many, many times, and they kept on saying it wasn't worth it. Yeah. They thought about firing her because, and this is a pattern for Elaine May, and God love her for it, the movie went

way over schedule and way over budget, and it took forever to edit. That's her process. Editing took about a year uh it went 40 days over schedule when you think about it only being a five-day work week at most that's quite a bit especially for comedy what do you think the schedule for this movie was the schedule for this movie 40 days absolutely not i would i would guess it was also uh the budget was originally 1.8 million dollars it went up to over four so she she doubled the budget more than yes yeah i mean look the thing the thing is this is the one i would say that she is the most upset

about it seems like and that they truly took the cut away from her and you know just cut it down but she presented a three-hour cut to them yes and like i'd love to see it to be clear i would love to see a three-hour cut of this movie this movie rules but it also just feels bananas to me like there's no way paramount's putting out a three-hour comedy about a guy a rich guy trying to murder people that would be insane well do you know the original cut had multiple murders in it he succeeded in murdering multiple people they had to cut out all the murders because they were like i don't think this guy's gonna be too too likable by the end of the movie yes if he's getting away with real murder there's a good special feature

uh which of course Elaine May is like, I don't care about him being likable. Right, yes. And again, God love her. She's the queen. Absolutely. I agree, Elaine. I'm just saying.

The fucking coolest. I understand Paramount may be worrying about the commercial prospects. Yes. There's a special feature on the Blu-ray, a man named Angelo Corral, who was an assistant editor on the movie. It was his first job as an editor on a movie, and he talks a little bit about how tortured the process was. And he says that he thought her cut was a lot better, that he does think the version that came

out worked, but they essentially found the way to sort of shave it into just being a quirky comedy. And her movie had a lot more layers to it. It touched on a lot more sociopolitical issues. It had more murder. It was much darker. And it was like, you know, three hours long. But when he came on, she had already been working on it for months. They had fired an editor.

They were making her do reshoots. They fundamentally, I mean, apparently they had the entire process of They were making her do reshoots. They fundamentally, I mean, apparently they had the entire process of filming, looking at the dailies. They were like, this is not how a comedy works. They were incredibly disheartened with all the footage they were seeing. And I think it is because these scenes really stack up on top of each other. If you look at any one isolated scene from this movie it does not feel like a comedy scene in and of itself it doesn't have the laughs like that they might expect i would i imagine that's what they were fretting about right like it just doesn't have that sort of punchy style that it feels like it should have given the outsized nature of the plot

like given the the character math i was playing right like you're like okay these are weird people where are the punch lines but it also functions like the nickels and may sketches where it's like well in the best scenes every single line is a laugh line even though none of them are technically jokes griffin do you like this movie do you think it's good this movie's really good yeah i had never this is the one I'd never seen before and it's just so, it's so fucking good. It just blew my mind. Yeah, it was the one I'd seen last.

I saw it at Film Forum like a year or two ago. It's really good and it's so good that it's hard for me to imagine what the alternate version would be like. That's the thing! I'm like, this thing's great! You're telling me you don't like this thing? Like, come on. I know. Mathew apparently greatly preferred this version and fought for it. There are a lot of people, I mean, I was just even looking like Ebert named it one of

his best films of the year, but his review is largely talking about the fact that Elaine May disowned the cut. So it's like, this was very much a movie that I think had a Margaret-esque reputation where it landed with people being like, this thing is much a movie that i think had a margaret-esque reputation where it landed with people being like this thing is troubled you know it was a relative hit it was well reviewed it uh got awards nominations uh and it got right as you said it got i think three globe nominations right for picture actor actress yeah no just two picture and actress math how snubbed and it got a Writers Guild? I think she got a Writers Guild nomination.

I think you're right. Let's see. And yes, it did. And like, you know, so okay, it doesn't become an Oscar player. It was released in March of 1971. Like it's not being positioned as an Oscar player. But it was, and I think it basically made its budget back. Like it was no flop and it was, and I think it basically made its budget back. Like, it was no flop, and it was pretty well liked. And the only problem is that, right, it was this tortured creative process, which is just sort of the norm for her.

Right, and May tried to get her name taken off the movie as a director, and she also unsuccessfully sued Paramount to stop it from being released. And this is a threat, right? Like, obviously, when you talk about Elaine May only having four films, you know, you cannot avoid how differently men and women are treated in the industry as directors, and that she was pegged with a difficult reputation. But also, Elaine May is a badass who doesn't give a shit. And to her credit, as an artist, she seemingly put no attention or energy towards playing the game. I do think that in some ways hurt her career. You know. Right.

But also, that's why she's the best. She doesn't mince words. She doesn't suffer fools. And I watched the Nichols American Master that she directed. best she doesn't mince words she doesn't suffer fools and i watched uh the um uh nichols american master that she directed and nichols tells two stories i'll share quickly that are really telling because they kind of explain not only what makes nichols a good director but what made him such a successful director and they're things you can never imagine elaine may doing one is he was signed on to do Virginia Woolf.

He was adamant that it should be black and white. They were like weeks away from starting production. They had the sets built. They had the costumes picked. They had the actors. They'd done makeup tests all for black and white. Right. And the studio head, whoever was at the time, calls him in and goes, and by the way, the picture needs to be in color. And Nichols goes, what are you talking about? And he said, I talked to the guys in New York and the the way the picture needs to be in color and nichols goes what are you talking about and he said i talked to the guys in new york and the guys in new york all think it needs to be in color and nichols as the sort of smart ass who had always been this sort of like uh you know little lord font leroy like sort of trekking through life with his superior intelligence all these stories about him sort of like sliding his way through college and shit

uh said like who who is new york what are you talking about what is new through college and shit, said like, who is New York? What are you talking about? What is New York? And the guy said, it's just not an option. Either the picture's in black and white or it doesn't happen. And Nichols' response, very calmly, is he goes, look, I like my apartment.

I like staying at home. I would be very happy to not make this movie. It's a good answer. And the guy just sighs and goes, okay, so it's in black and white. Right? Yeah. And then the other story is

they thought the movie was going to get disowned by what's it called? When like the Catholic Church, the Archdiocese had their like... Right. Like, yes. Commission of Standards or whatever. Yes.

Right. The original cancel culture, let's say, as much as the religious right likes to act like cancel culture is a thing of the leftist woke mob, there were decades of cancel culture that was just the Pope saying, this movie is evil. I don't know what you're talking about. All these people on my feed are getting canceled all the time. They're telling me about it.

That's how I heard about it. So I don't know what you're talking about. I mean, I feed are getting canceled all the time they're telling me about it that's how i heard about it so i don't know what you're talking about i mean i hear about it from them that they've been canceled and they can't tell me that they've been canceled and that's how i know they've been canceled that's the thing i cannot turn on my tv without hearing people broadcast nationally telling me that they've been canceled the point is they thought they were going to disown the movie and they were going to ban it because of uh language content and yes finish your story i'm sorry i have something so cool that i want to tell you but yes go ahead but this is full circle back to what ben was saying nickels said to the head of the studio i'm gonna tell you what i'm gonna do let's get the screening with the guys on the board the archdiocese or whatever bring them in and i'll

also invite jackie O to that screening. And she will sit next to me, and after the movie is done, before they have a chance to say anything, she'll turn back to them and say, don't you think it's just wonderful? And Nichols said, and I knew she would do that because she was a good friend. She owed me a favor. And that's exactly what happened. Imagine just Jackie O as your friend. I can't. He was so good at playing the game

while also, like, getting what he wanted. He was a finesser, you know? And Elaine May is someone who, when they wanted to cut down Mikey and Nikki, slept with a loaded gun under her pillow and stole the film reels. So it does, like, look. We stand.

Right. There are many men who have behaved in similar ways and have been canonized for it, right? I'm not saying it's just the fact that she acted in such an aggressive way, but she also just did not give a shit. She thought she should be allowed to make the movie the way she wanted to, and her response if anyone tried to stop her was, fuck you. It wasn't, let me bring Jackie Owen, you know? Absolutely. Here's a couple things about Elaine May that I just learned. I've been Googling around.

One, she was the fourth woman to join the Directors Guild of America. Wow. That's how few female directors there were when she's, like, coming on board. In America. Yeah. Europe, slightly different, but only slightly. Two, just something about the lawsuit. Because, you know know you're talking

about her stealing mikey nicky reels but right but it's also that like paramount's like hey we want to cut the movie and she's like i'm taking you to fucking court like you know like that's also that's that's a big move for this to this to the studio that's going to put out your movie yes um so apparently here's what happened the studio heads they they you know they countersuit they say she's breaching her contract we want to show the judge this this cut of the movie the movie that exists the 102 minute cut the lights go down they show the movie the judge laughs the through the entire movie the lights go up and he says it's the funniest thing i've seen in years you guys win the lawsuit wow isn't that the best even though that sounds insane

just also imagining the judge being like this was a great day at court usually i have to deal with all kinds of bullshit i really like that movie she was she was the i believe the first woman ever to star in right and direct her own movie. That sounds totally right. I know Ida Lupino, obviously. Ida Lupino did like two out of three, you know? But no one ever did all three. And as you point out, very few people even got to do one, you know? Got to do the directing side of the equation.

Here's the Charles Grodin quote that I love that is in this profile I'm reading. Elaine's the opposite of everyone else in hollywood she's always fighting to get as little credit as possible to keep her name off the movie and not to get invited to the party she's happier without any of that right uh like that that's that's the vibe and i love it and rodan must have learned some shit from her. Absolutely. I feel like went on to sort of like carry on that tradition. Yeah. And his whole like Letterman persona feels very much like something out of a Nichols and May sketch.

Yes. God, he's I should watch those. This is all this whole miniseries is just making me want to watch. I know it's just hours of YouTube. Right. Exactly. But but this movie, yes, it is one of those things where I struggle to even conceptualize what the longer version would feel like. And it almost feels to me like I didn't realize the editing process was this torturous. not doing much research previously was that it was something like Days of Heaven, where

like he has this unwieldy three hour cut and they go, it has to be 90 minutes. And he just spends three years editing until it's 90 minutes. You know, I thought it was, oh, it's a labored process, but it wasn't something that involved like lawsuits and shit and her trying to get her name removed from the film. Because it is hard, you know, in a Days of Heaven way, you could go like, well, I can imagine how there's just more of this, how there's more footage, but I can't imagine this movie having any natural shape at three hours. But this assistant editor who did this special feature is like, it was great. And it was this movie that somehow covered all these other subjects, like it was able

to touch on misogyny in the workplace in a way that this cut can't you know and their little allusions to things their offhand lines but it was really layered in and that it was more of like a murder mystery movie i mean i'd love to see it i assume there's no chance i know i have to assume right that like still incredibly unclear if the cut exists in any form. Right, if she has it somewhere, maybe. There's one more thing I gotta read you. This is so fucking funny.

This is from the liner notes to improvisations to music. I'm just gonna read this verbatim, okay? Mike Nichols is not a member of the Actors Studio, which has produced such stars as Marlon Brando, Julie Harris, Ben Gazzara, Eva Marie Saint, Carol Baker, another student of mine, who to mention. He's never toured with Mr. Roberts, and he's never appeared on television programs such as the Goodyear Playhouse and the Craft

Theater. So that's Mike Nichols' bio. Funny. Funny. Funny. Beneath that, one line, Miss May does not exist. That's the entire line. Funny! Can I ask, is that the original Twitter bio? That's that's like right that's what everyone is trying to accomplish in their twitter bio right being that fucking cool

being and that kind of over it that kind of like yeah whatever yeah you know i know i know i'm the best i don't exist maybe i should buy improvisations to music on vinyl right now yeah 50 bucks uh anyway a new leaf i knew did you like this movie this movie's so fucking funny i really liked it i never seen uh you never seen a may never seen a may yeah i've seen a may so um never smelled a Mayflower. I have not. I liked it a lot. It was, it was like weird also to see Mathau because he's not, you know, I said this on the, he's not doing what you might. Right. Okay.

We got to just dig right into talking about Mathau. Ben, what, what do you have to say? But there's a lot of Mathau talking. Oh yeah. I'll be, I'll just say like, I, you know know i've been on this podcast and said many time and i don't watch old movies because it's old sure you know and i just find it strange it's like hard to get into it's like that was a long time ago so dusty you but you start coughing because there's so much dust but uh and like i love me some grumpy old men yeah of course and

even grumpier old men i like them both that's the thing like walter matthew must have been one of your favorite movie stars in the 90s i mean he's in dennis the menace aka the ben hosley story oh oh a hundred percent i i idolized dennis right and even out to sea yeah i mean oh yeah yeah so totally so like that's how i'm seeing i'm seeing walter now and i'm like he was a young man ever but let's say because he's still i mean at this this movie he's 51 right i was gonna say many people credit this as being the movie that allowed him to survive the transition to new Hollywood. It made him avoid the trap of being seen as a stodgy kind of institution guy from the old studio system because he was right on that edge. And this movie showed, and then he does shit like, obviously, Bad News Bears and shit. Yeah,

Pelham 1, 2, 3. that's all coming up right but he's very strategic about how to not come off as your your dad's movie star and considering that i mean odd couple is only 1968 the culture just shifts so hard where the guy is like i can't just do neil simon movies anymore i'm gonna be look like a grandpa because cactus flower is a couple years before this and uh hello dolly is is also and like hello dolly that's that's a big old-fashioned musical he is i i do enjoy walter matthew but cactus flower that feels like more where he's like sure i can be kind of a stodgy guy you know who the times are changing around but like and i can ride that wave that'll be what i do

right right but i i think in many ways i mean like lemon transforms his entire persona essentially survive in new hollywood right he becomes like kind of the old authority figure the sad old man and like serious dramas serious act very serious yes i mean like he'll still do comedies but right he really you know far fewer you know and the tiger the front you know uh you know i guess the front page that's a comedy but like you know china syndrome that's something he becomes serious missing yeah so good right right uh but yes but but mathau largely remains a comedy star and he pulls off that difficult transition people always talk about how well paul newman did that where he became like the gray-haired anti-authority figure you know um but a lot of guys just got left behind when that happened and that was another reason i think

paramount really wanted elaine may so badly is this is like the shift has happened uh easy rider has happened the bbs movies have happened and it's very clear that like there's a younger audience who's very engaged. They care about who's directing the movie. They want things that feel more anarchic, that speak to issues, whether comedically or seriously. And they're maybe the people who are willing to throw down their dollars the fastest. And so the whole studio system sort of shifts to target that audience. And Matthau is smart enough to understand that this

is a good film for him to be in. But it's very funny that he is 51 in this movie and essentially is playing, for me to use this term for the second time in one episode, a little Lord Fauntleroy character, right? I mean, he's this bastard hound of a man who feels very low status. I mean, I feel like every, you know uh math out performance up until this point is he's very blue collar he's sort of like put upon right he played well he also will often play like the professor or like in fail safe or you know a face in the crowd like he's like the guy with the pipe essentially who's like well here's the situation like he would do a lot of that but yes he would play i mean in the you know oscar do a lot of that, but yes, he would play... I mean, Oscar in The Odd Couple, he's sort of the slob.

He's the slob. Yeah, right. But I think of him more as the straight man, by and large. Yeah, it's also just very funny to cast him in what is ostensibly a Cary Grant part. That's the first major joke of this movie i just love a guy who's so rich that he doesn't exist in our dimension that just always makes me laugh like the mr burns type where it's just like he he's never eaten lunch like i've eaten lunch right just like he just there's a whole other set of rules for how this guy exists so every scene

where he's like discussing wine and she's like talking about like wine coolers essentially and he's just like completely flummoxed i i it just it really presses my buttons i really love it but i'll say this it's a great performance but innately and i mean no disrespect by saying this walter matho does not have a fancy face he does not have a fancy voice so there's a media comedy from just this guy playing that sort of un unearthly rich person right absolutely like well he's bad at it he's bad at it that's what i think is great about it being a rich guy yeah he's he's no he's not right yeah he doesn't wear it well he He doesn't wear it well. He's not carrying on this legacy well.

And that's why he fails at it. He knows all the words. He knows the lingo. But he also feels like a 51-year-old 10-year-old. I mean, it's just even down to his hairstyle in this movie. And his little suits feel like things that you make a kid wear at his first communion or something. He's the butler putting the bib on him and all that i mean god i love a butler too oh the butler's so good in this but let's also say his fucking little race car helmet yes i mean the opening joke of this movie

such a good establishing joke uh which is the the the the you know hospital you know ekg beeping and then it turns out it's his car and they're like, well, how often do you take it in? He's like two, three times a month or a week, sorry, it's a week, right? He's like, well, how often do you take it out? How often do you drive it? Two, three times a week.

He's just bad at everything. But he wears this little helmet when he drives off. And it's this thing I love Elaine May does where you just have, like, you do the setup really quickly, right? She's such a master at the comedic montage for establishing and world building and character development and everything. You have this series of him seeing him in increasingly ridiculous situations in the plane, right? On the horses. him seeing him in increasingly ridiculous situations in the plane right on the horses uh always just talking about the same thing that the auto mechanics told him about the problem with

the car right and and then he has the the hammer drop he's out of money right yeah no more money he spends more than he makes every year and he exists in such a disconnected state that he cannot even comprehend the concept that he's out of money. You have no capital. He has no capital. What does that mean? But this check bounce, that scene is like very good. Right, because

the check costs $6,000 and you don't have $6,000. There's a moment where the man playing, whoever it is, his financial manager, literally just comes short of doing a take to camera. Right? It's like he explains it to me. He goes, do you understand?

He goes, yes. He goes, thank God. And then Matthau goes like, so where's my money? And the guy just comes one millimeter short of directly looking down the barrel of the lens. It's so restrained. But that scene is so good. And then go of course to his uncle james coco james fucking coco man he's the best oh my god movies should have never stopped having guys who

look like james coco in them it's kind of like our when we were rhapsodizing about um from thief uh robert prosky oh just that just another another type like that where you're like oh this guy was like you know he like this just this guy from the bronx yeah just looks like a mad magazine cartoon right like he's just like he's like three foot foot wide, bald, like at the age of 12. Always wearing like a suit that doesn't quite fit. I don't know how to describe James Coco. An Oscar nominated great actor, like to be clear. Sure.

But just what a look he has. Let's also say that 1983, okay? what a look he has let's also say that 1983 okay james coco who was known for being portly releases a book called the james coco diet right that explains i cracked it none of these diets ever worked for me i cracked it here's how to lose weight the james coco way it gives him like a second thrust of his career he goes on talk shows he becomes a late night guest all talking about the james coco diet it's almost like a jane fonda workout thing he dies four years later of a heart attack it didn't work i'm so sorry to say it didn't work i'm sorry i'm sorry james coco it didn't work he's the best james coco um but this is a guy who's good at being rich right this guy's just as gross but he knows how to do in this movie

yes he he essentially looks like the duke from dune he's sitting at this table like popping grapes in his mouth floating over the chair the baron that's like he's uh he's uh you know everything is like silver like it's the most everything he says is just like oh oh you know like like that there's that amazing split diapeter shot where Walter Matthau is in his mouth in between his teeth before he takes another grape. Matthau is like covered in sweat in that scene. It's so uncomfortable. Which all feels like a perfect choice. Like, you feel like he's been sitting there for hours.

Just his hair. There's something about him having like these sideburns and like these floppy bangs and everything right yes right these brightly colored suits or ties or handkerchiefs or whatever let's also just say you know i i really i was i re-watched this movie and the entire time i was thinking can i back this statement up is there no one else but i really really think i stand behind this walter mathau the funniest face in the history of movies i mean a face that can close a movie just just with the face right like just close any scene can button any any joke you know just a cut to walter mathau is always a perfect punchline he's got great lines. And I'm not saying,

I'm saying like the crinkles of his skin on his face. To the point that when he dies, he's only 80 years old. It feels like he's a thousand. Like in those late year movies, in Hanging Up, which we covered on this show. He's so craggy and fascinating to look at.

Oh man. The Odd Couple 2. Remember The Odd Couple 2? Who could forget? I feel like we talk about that a lot. He just had the droopiest face in the world, and it's funny when you see him, his early roles at the beginning of his career, Lonely or the Brave I think is a pretty young performance

from him. You just want to say, hey, man, man, whatever, like to come back in like five years, you know, like what do you do with a catcher's mitt? You put a baseball in and tie some twine around and put in a bathtub. Can you do that to your face? Like he just never looked right as a young guy, you know, and then by like 30, it was like, OK, now it's settled. Now you look 50. You're good to go. Right.

We're cursed with the knowledge of how great he's going to look in the 70s. But yes, absolutely. When you see him in a face in the crowd or whatever, you're kind of like, why is Walter Matthau look like he got a facelift? Why is he so smooth? What's going on? Who airbrushed Walter Matthau? I love him. I love Matthau he he's he's cool right what's

his deal i don't know much about him he was married to the same lady for 41 years he would tell people his real name was matuchansky yeah he's like jokingly uh credit earthquake earthquake i'm sorry let me get this right the name it's longer people it was matusha chanskayaski matusha it's very funny matusha yaska uh uh chaska yansky and when he yaski i'm sorry when his uh when he died people asked his son about he was like that's absolute bullshit his real name was mathau but it was, yes. He just thought that was funny to tell people. He just thinks it's funny, right? Because he's the son of Jewish immigrants,

and he probably was just like, right, what if I just had the most ludicrous name? We changed it at Ellis Island. It was Yamanasamakamakatansky. What a good voice he's got. But he's doing this weird voice in this movie that's so funny. He's almost doing received pronunciation, right? Right. He's doing a weird voice in this movie that's so funny. He's almost doing received pronunciation, right?

Right. He's playing, he's doing, he's doing a fancy man voice. Yes. And it's so funny sounding. And even just his posture, the way he like sort of like holds up his chin and juts out his chest. Yes. Just adds to the unreality. It's hilarious.

The premise of this movie, obviously, is that he decides he has to marry to get money. That's his only means of survival. He's going to lose all his money. He's going to have to give up everything he has. His twisted uncle, James Coco, offers him a $50,000 loan, but he has to pay it back in a week. So he has one week to find a rich woman to marry and seize control of her finances before that though you have what for me is the funniest uh sequence of the entire film though it's extended sequence which is him saying goodbye to wealth so funny it's so funny that is one that is one of the

so visually ingenious ever just the way yeah it's incredible and also just uh aline may knowing how to use music for comedy right uh but but yes he leaves the meeting with his business manager i guess it happens i think before he goes to see his uncle that's the the lifeline um but he goes to all his favorite places they play this really sad operatic music it is uh in a monastery garden in a monastery garden right yeah katel be uh but uh he goes to like his favorite restaurant and they go like sir do you want to sit down he goes like no i just wanted to make sure it's still there and this like huge swooning music is playing he goes to the club to make sure he can still get in he just says goodbye to all his privilege but he plays it so sullenly and the music is so serious and there's just no winking and it's just the the comedy is just from the

severity of it right that it's truly a sequence of mourning without any release and you can imagine if a studio is looking at the dailies they're like elaine this is a comedy what are you doing it's so funny though so but it has to be cut together you have to have the vision of The Daily is there like, Elaine, this is a comedy. What are you doing? It's so funny, though. So but it has to be cut together. You have to have the vision of understanding the larger joke she's telling. But yes, it's so funny. He is inconsolable.

He's floated the $50,000 loan. And then he goes on sort of a series of speed dating his his butler. You know, he tells him the situation goes like, but if I lose it all, you all you'll still be with me and he's like let's just focus on meeting a woman right so the butler's very invested in i don't want to lose my job here right he's like i'd give my two weeks notice yeah right but but going back to the point that this character is just like a child like a baby the first date he goes on as a woman who he is terrified of because her breasts are too large like he is terrified of anything he doesn't want her to yes this movie is hilariously rated g yeah and uh and uh she right is about to unbutton her uh bathing suit top or

whatever it is and then he's like don't let them out which is funny right and then it's like, don't let them out, which is funny. Right. And then it's a hard cut to his butler putting like calamine lotion on his rashes. Yes. But yes, just he he does not know how to coexist with another person, which is one of the fundamental things I think in this cut the movie ends up being about. And also, he just does not know how to do anything outside of his comfort zone. All these dates are going poorly. They're not connecting for one reason or another then he gets the tip off about this woman who is an eccentric rich lady she's very rich she's the full got the full inheritance from her dead father right but she's she's not spending the money right like she just wants to be with her plants right

the estate is not contested but she is not a woman of the same sort of culture that he is and that's the other thing she works she loves plants and she works as a professor botanist right in botany and that's disgusting to this class that why would you do something you don't need that sounds desperate Exactly. That is unbecoming. But he goes to this private club and just plays it perfectly. Right. I mean, she comes in and is just like, you know, beyond wallflower. I mean, dropping every single drink. Right.

Embarrassing herself in front of everyone, every faux pas. And he just takes the grandstand. You know, how dare you judge this woman uh knowing that this is someone who probably has never had anyone pay any sort of positive attention to her her entire life that's that's how he bewitches her is just like paying attention to her right so i mean the courtship on on that side is immediate she is just immediately in the bag for the fact that he is pretending to care about her right um and and like he is trying to sort of culturally uh educate her there's the wine scene there's the i mean i mean during their honeymoon the incredible scene where he tries to fit her into the toga style uh night

gown that just takes so long like you're like surely we're cutting out of this. And she's like, no. Once again, like, shittier comedy would be 90 minutes of this now, right? The movie is 90 minutes of him trying to convince her to say yes, right? Right. High-low comedy, right?

Like, he's like, come on, you have to be fancy. And she's like, oh, but I like it this way. Right. And then you also get the Pygmalion thing of him trying to teach her how to be a little classier but they they do exactly as much of that as will still be entertaining and then you meet her business manager uh who is kind of a con man

right he works in the same building as uh math out his business manager but he's a more low rent kind of greasy guy jack weston who also very funny he is such a scumbag yeah i was gonna say ben he's also so good in ishtar oh is he oh sure look excited for that great role in ishtar yeah well i'll just say like what is so effective about his character it's so over the top scum that it makes mathau look less like it makes him look less bad automatic sympathy right yes because i mean this guy just his suits look like they smell bad his home over can barely stay down like everything about this guy just like just reeks of seediness. And he is clearly just been sort of like work in her books. He's got all of his friends on her payroll. They're all

fleecing her for everything she's got. And he is absolutely terrified by Matthau coming in and starting to like vie for her fortune. So once again, you feel like this could be the entire movie math i was trying to woo her this guy's trying to catch math out and expose him right but instead very quickly you get to the scene where he shows up and he goes look i got it here's the evidence you know and mathos this is the night he's planning on proposing he's gotten his butler to get her favorite drink which is these weird wine coolers that she loves with lime juice yep and uh the it's the is the business manager her uncle as well am i misremembering that no i don't think so it's just her lawyer yeah it's just and you know i think it's just her lawyer uh he shows up and

says here's the paper trail this is the loan he's dirt poor now the only way he can get the money back is to marry someone he's only with you because of this and Matthau tries to like push back right you know how dare you slanderous it's libel I'll sue you this and that and do you have any proof and he goes yes I have copious amounts of proof here's all the proof

and then Matthau immediately pivots to the you know well at first you know the she's all that. At first, this was a bet. But then I never knew I would actually develop real feelings for you. And her response is just like, if you had told me on the first day that you needed money, I would have married you then. Why did you wait five days?

Well, it's also because he's going to kill himself. Right. Right. Right. Right. That's the other part. But in a classy way, he's just like,

like he's a Roman emperor who has to fall on his sword because he doesn't have a fucking paycheck anymore. Yeah. She's also just so funny. Like this is a type, this sort of wallflower,

the like extreme nerd, right? Who like, but she's, she just has a weird humanity to it without sacrificing oddball laughs, like big laughs. These are two fundamentally funny actors playing fundamentally funny characters as designed. The other thing I just looked at is her first choice for the Matthau role was Christopher Plummer, who is the obvious if you're just casting by type. Fancy rich man, right.

And Paramount was the one who insisted on it, being Matthau because he was box office. Walter Matthau, at that point, ranked the seventh biggest box office draw in Hollywood,

which is just a wild thing to think about. Cactus Flower, big hit. Hello, Dolly, big hit. No, I'm not denying his track record, but it's just like if Paul Giamatti was currently the seventh biggest box office star in Hollywood, you know?

Yes. And it's so much funnier because it's not, you know, the obvious type castings. And so they get married. They get married very quickly. And so they get married. They get married very quickly. There's that great scene where now the lawyer is giving her away at the wedding and he refuses to step away while the wedding is actually happening. Yeah, like as going down the aisle, he's still being like, like, I'll kill myself. Like, right.

Like just like to the last second, still trying to like change things in his favor. But also like the actual ceremony is happening and he's physically wedged himself between the two of them right right and and the priest has to say like would you mind taking a step back yep we skipped over it just really quickly want to shout out when he drops the glass and then kneels down into the glass oh funny like just it's like i don't know what's his line it's like oh no i it's one of my favorite exercises yeah it's so fucking funny so his deadpan but so much of it is his face i'm not saying this in any disrespect to his line deliveries but it's just cutting to his face after

something happens is always funny. It's weird situational comedy that you've never seen before and hasn't been repeated since. Like, that's what's so weird about it. Like, I'm like, this is this weird bit that's very funny. And it's just like it's just in this movie. It's not like like an easy, repeatable, or commonplace thing. I mean, and here are just lines that are so funny that you almost don't process them when they're being said. They don't get a laugh out of you immediately.

I mean, David, do you want to read the one, the glass one? Kneeling on glass is my favorite pastime. It keeps me from slouching. I can't even deliver the whole line without laughing. But then this one i think this is when he's first coming on to her and he's saying like you and i were the same we're the same class the same species homo the same genus right he does that whole speech yes and then he says the only difference between us is i am a man and you are a woman and we don't have to let that

interfere if we are reasonably careful oh god just i mean the opening line you did just the the wordiness of these lines sometimes is part of the fun yes i i love it um and the butler being like how many men these days days required the services of a gentleman's gentleman how many have your devotion to form you've managed to keep alive traditions that were dead before you were born like the butler just likes that he's even if he's not the best at it but he's trying to be as fancy and useless a rich person as possible i love the term gentleman's gentleman it's right up there for me with gentleman's thief i like any gentleman's blank gotta watch this lupin uh netflix show people by the way with omar's yeah yeah omar sai omar sai rules yeah he does

but it but it's a show about a guy who wants to be like the original lupin right it's not a reboot he's like inspired by the i think i think so i don't know it's modern yes well it seemed like from the trailer it's almost like a special power or something or like that you inherit or it's passed along it's i'm intrigued by it too got the touch it's what it's like the biggest show in the world now everyone loves it yeah i'm checking here that it's been watched by god himself that was with the netflix press release that they just i'm sorry i'm sorry i got a new update it said it's been watched by over 70 million gods in the first 24 hours right yeah the all of mount olympus is watched uh yes so they get married he goes to her home uh her her estate he finds that essentially people have had the idea that he had years ago everyone's

there's like a subsistence economy around her of just people doing no work for lots of money and giving half the check to to her lawyer the other thing that's great is they feel like carnies like they're not even keeping up the appearances of like oh yes i am a fancy waiter right they're so out of it that when he gets in there they just greet him with like cheers they're like hey welcome to the club you're gonna take this rich lady's money right that's the vibe yeah it's great here the water is warm they walk in on the driver fucking on the floor yes she's just like well what are they gonna do and it's such a good detail that when they go to the lawyer and they're complaining about the fact that matho fired all of them they're wearing far fancier clothes than when they're working for her

so it's like they look more low rent when they're ostensibly dress up right right and they've they've they've fleeced this woman for so much money that they certainly have the, the baubles and britches. Do you notice Doris Roberts? Of course. She's like sort of the main one. Yes. She's really funny.

He plays a grown mother very, very briefly in heartbreak kid. Uh, it's another person where, uh, she's best known obviously as playing a raise mom and everybody loves raymond and is very bizarre to see her young uh she's also in pelham 123 she's the mayor's wife uh but i definitely don't really know what doris roberts you have to tell me that it's doris roberts because yes i see

her as uh obviously i don't remember the character's name even uh marie yes but it's this incredibly funny twist in the movie where it's like, this isn't one of those movies about somehow begrudgingly he becomes a better person. He becomes a better asshole, right? I mean, it's like, what happens is his growth is, he actually learns how to be aware of the finances and balance the book. But he doesn't gain a humanity. He fools this woman into marrying her yeah he takes her money now he doesn't kill her which is his original plan right but nonetheless he gets away with it she

never really finds out like that he harbored malicious intent yeah and at the end of the day he's like i suppose i'll simply have to live you know life with you and even maybe do some teaching on the side like you like it doesn't sound too terrible right he's sort of like uh you know life with you and even maybe do some teaching on the side like you like it doesn't sound too terrible right he's sort of like uh you know i mean you know sort of 50 50 for me mezzo mezzo you know like this guy is getting away with everything and you walk out of the movie happy like what movie can pull that off but it's the fern discovery well yes yes her having this really cool aspect of herself that she's like he comes to respect it like genuinely that she can name it right yeah and it's he likes the token he likes it but i do think there's something to um there's something just inherent where you're like not only is it

just his name i like right because there's ego to it but it's just like it's an impressive thing to have done yes yes yes but but also you know there's he can't he gets caught like uh you know in his feelings somewhat like he he starts studying botany so he can pretend that he has always shared this passion that she has but then he actually starts to care about it a little bit you know like it stops being a sort of strategic uh thing and when she speaks about her dream of getting a plant named after herself it's like for the first time he gets it to a certain degree because he's like oh it's infamy there's there's a class to that you know but he still at this point is like yeah but i mean come on i'm not i don't love her what am i gonna do live with her for the rest of my life and i feel

like the two things that happen are one uh you know she feeds into his narcissism in a lot of ways that makes him feel better about himself and he realizes the value of having a partner who supports him even if he doesn't care for her that much the second thing is i think he realizes this isn't that different than most old rich couples they both exactly most of them seem to largely resent each other and can barely tolerate each other but you live in the same house and you manage it together you know the burden on him is low he's not gonna need to give her much she is she's fully independent like she all she wants to do is catalog plants and then teach about plants like some marriage she's not asking much of him right exactly right um and so when well yeah i mean like you know when he's a set and but right what you're saying though griffin is like when he

is taking charge of the finances firing people yes you can see that there's the sort of the more malicious argument is like, right. He wants all his rivals out of the way because he's going to make the money. Right. But as you're pointing out, he supposedly is bad at finances and now he's good at it. So it's like there is growth. He is kind of using it for her. Yeah. He's intervening on her behalf.

it for her yeah he's intervening on her behalf and that's about as close to personal growth as he's gonna show and that's a good thing but it's kind of incredible that this movie pulls off having him giving him the arc of he sort of learns how to grow up and they learn how to be together without him becoming a better person or falling in love with her. Right. It like pulls off both narrative landing points without actually doing the hacky thing of just like, I never realized, you know, without it ever feeling dopey or cheesy. He's presented. I mean, look, the end of the it's not a long movie. At the end of the movie is that he's presented with her death.

Right. He can get away with it. He can get away. She's drowning. She can't swim. Right. He can just let her go. Right.

And he sees the fern just accidentally. And he's like, oh, yeah, look, here it is. Right. And he catches himself that he's so excited by it that he yells out to her like, look. And then he's bummed out that she's not there to talk to. And he's like, i guess i will stop her from dying right so i can share this moment of joy with her but yes i mean right pretty quickly from there i mean he cleans house he manages her whole life he sort of like builds everything he

takes actual responsibility and consciousness for his incredibly superficial stupid lifestyle um but but he is better at being the kind of shitty person he wants to be he's at least sort of self-sustaining and uh and then yes she mentions this trip she's going on and he has the the realization of i could kill her this is a perfect way to kill her it's another incredible recurring musical sting that weird computer music they play whenever he's calculating a plan it's like a robot in overdrive um yeah he's filling up i don't know seven flasks yes planning for his trip or whatever when he and the butler start talking and i feel like the butler kind of knows that he might shoot her in the woods he sees the gun and he's trying to like find a way to not get his ire up but also

like remind him that he doesn't need to kill her that things are going well which is not really yeah it's not really a plot in the first half of the movie that he's gonna kill her he's it's just that he has to get married that sort of just comes in later when he's like going to the greenhouse and he's like do you have any arsenic right which in retrospect that makes sense if he's committed two murders earlier in the that's the only right it's the only thing where you're like right is there's chunks here that we're sort of losing yeah yeah but that's the only thing about that that feels like oh is there something lost in the edit everything else yeah like you said griffin it's sort of things piling on top of each other it's not like it's a smooth narrative movie but the movie does not feel cut to death at all and that's why these

reviews are so funny where they're all like yeah apparently she hates this and she had like a three hour cut yeah i'd love to see it but i loved this movie like those are like what all the reviews were like yeah it's it's also just like it's a thing i love about screwball comedies and this is sort of in the tradition of screwball comedies, even though it's outside of that era, is like the Preston Sturgis movies that I love so much. The plot changes every 20 minutes. Right. It's just like, OK, we've we've rung that dry. Move on to the next thing.

Enough of that. Yes. Yeah. Rather than this sort of forced stasis that I think a lot of comedies force themselves into of just here's the big hook of our movie. We have to stay on that one hook for as long as possible. And a movie like this is like, here's another hook. Here's another hook. Here's another. Here's the section that's about murder. Here's the section about their trip being such a pain in the ass for him, you know. you know right um but but there is that scene that's so sweet before they go on the trip where she tells him with pride that she has discovered this this new uh plant this new leaf if you will

and she tells him that it's going to be filed under uh what is it um al-sofila great great homie it's right right graham right that. That she's Lowell and he's Graham and she says it's going to be under G. And he gets angry at her like, you idiot, don't you understand? The whole point of doing this is that you can take the credit for it. Why would you put it in my married name?

You have this other name that you've had for the rest of your life. And she's like, no, I named after you as like a nice thing, which she could never even consider that someone would not want to take all the credit and glory for something and that someone would do something for someone else out of total compassion. And he's so touched by it. Truly, in a self-serving way, he's touched because it's a tribute to him.

A hundred percent, as he should be. Right. And when he sees it himself, he's too excited by it to not share it with her yes uh that he plays that moment so well at the end just the casual like oh like here's the fern yeah uh and the way he's like fumbling where's my token it's so sweet in such a weird strange way and elaine may just sort of quietly like clinging onto the rock waiting to be told when to let go it's incredible this movie rules it is a weirdly sweet movie and i think it accomplishes that only by not asking for your sympathy for his character it's a thing with elaine may which is just she does not care if you find these

people likable she just wants you to find them entertaining and she would rather drill down into who they really are and their real behaviors rather than for some sort of like sappy audience uh uh sort of uh surrogacy you know definitely and like we're gonna see it in her next film the heartbreak kid like i feel like she only makes the characters more difficult to like you know while while not saccharine not not exiting the essentially romantic comedy genre she's like this is still going to be a romantic comedy but these characters are going to be even more ostensibly monstrous and it's going to be great yeah i'm just looking here the the murder's word that he figures out that henrietta is being blackmailed by the lawyer

and uh and and others and that's who he starts to murder he starts to murder the other people who soak in her her funds yes i think paramount was just like why would this be a movie about him getting away with murder that doesn't make any sense like this is the the structure of this movie should be about their relationship that's what it's about and she uh agreed and took them to court so you know again i'd love to see her cut i'd love to see it just wild but but a lot of big people uh you know like ne like Neil Simon and Cassavetes, see this movie and go like, oh, that's an interesting filmmaker.

And that's how the next two movies happen. And it is still, I mean, there's probably just, it's so rare for a woman to be directing a movie, a Hollywood movie in the 70s. So I'm sure that was a selling point or a point of interest in a lot of ways. The movie was not a huge hit,

but it did pretty, it did okay. Yeah. There was another good special feature on the Olive Films disc that is Amy Heckerling talking about Elaine May and her own experiences struggling as a woman in comedies, making comedies in Hollywood. Elaine May as sort of her idol, but said that when she realized as a young girl that she wanted to be a director,

she said to her father, you know, that's what I want to do. And he said, that's not a respectable job for women. Women don't make movies. And he threw the newspaper in front of her and said, look here, are any of these movies directed by women? And she flipped through the pages and none of them were. And then she saw the poster for A a new leaf and it was you you do have to think about that of just like it was such a seismic thing to have one woman who's making a movie is already that known a quantity is also the star of it it's very much her film it's being sold on her reputation even if she has one of the biggest box office stars around her. In and of itself, it's a big shift, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

Even if the movie weren't fucking rad as hell. It is rad as hell. But I think, you know, like Joan Rivers gets to direct a film a couple years later, you know? I mean, I think things like that happen largely because of Elaine May and saying, like, I don't know if a woman's funny, I guess we can let her make a movie, right? Absolutely.

I'm trying to find... I guess we're doing 1971 in film obviously i think we have office data here yeah um but you know i mean wikipedia claims like it fared poorly at the box office i'm seeing about five million dollars gross which is not crazy you know um it had a run at radio city music hall you know back in the day where like that's a thing you could do as a movie um the heartbreak kid is the next year wow so she's obviously riding high enough that like she just said this is the only time that she just goes from project to project that's the thing mean, she was liked so much by tastemakers. She had so much innate, cool cachet, you know? Definitely.

But Griffin, do you want to tell me what the number one movie of 1971 was? The biggest hit. And it's, you know, a film that was Oscar, you know, got lots of Oscar attention. It's a three three hour musical epic number one most successful film is it oliver nope that's i think oliver is a couple years earlier yeah um but you know it's this funny thing where you look at the top 10 here and you're like right new hollywood is inching in right but it is not quite like because the next year is the godfather where it's like okay all of a sudden everything is going to

start to change yeah and is is does midnight cowboy win best picture in 70 i think it's 69 69 is the big year obviously where it's bonnie and clyde and yes it's 69 yes right okay so this is a big three-hour musical. This is sort of a step back. This is a slightly more old Hollywood movie. I guess so. It's a darker musical, I guess. But it's the kind of thing you would put on in a high school.

Yeah, but it's not West Side Story. It's not Cabaret. It's not Oliver. It's a darker musical. It's not Sound of Music. Yeah, yeah, no not on a relative scale uh that one about jesus not about superstar no um does it have a traditional like musical star in it or is it a different type of actor doing a musical this guy is famous for being in this movie he's in other stuff wow uh but i feel like this guy this

guy is known by one name it's fiddler fiddler on the roof was the highest grossing film of night number one david i i don't know why i don't know what led me there this is how i fill my days and nights now but i went on a big topal rabbit hole the other day because i was just like that's an interesting career absolutely i'm topol look topol was on the front of my mind fiddler on the roof was on the front of my mind i never ever would have guessed that was the highest grossing film of its year numero uno if i was a rich man he was astonishing he was he's fucking loaded now number two griffin it's one of those movies where you're like oh oh i forgot that that was a word of mouth like road show success like sort of a classic you know sort of a weird like cult classic is it billy jack billy jack yeah um yeah you know sort of what do you call that like

it's like a sort of indie western right about a guy you know distributing hard justice right made by an outsider right it was like an independent movie by a guy who was like i should make a movie about how much of a badass i am how i'm the last good american and people flop that just becomes one of these weird like pop culture jokes like you know like that you would put on like a billy jack sequel right you know i mean i don't know when i would as a strange child look at box office charts and ask my father to explain to me the movies i didn't recognize by name i just remember that being one of those ones where he was just like i don't even know how i described this thing to you like he was some guy and everyone made fun of him and then it just played for like two years and it was the biggest

hit and he made a bunch of sequels but he never did really anything else outside of Billy Jack that's right yeah what's I already forgot Tom McLaughlin is that his name Tom Laughlin yeah yeah it's like what if there was a guy who's like a Vietnam vet but

also he's like a martial artist but also he's a cowboy right and he beats up hippies essentially but he's also half martial artist, but also he's a cowboy. Right. And he beats up hippies, essentially. But he's also half Navajo. You have to say also he's a real American. I don't want to say that. He's a real American, Billy Jack. Because I don't think Tom Laughlin was half Navajo.

Absolutely not. Zero chance. Number three at the box office this year was The Best Picture Winner. And it's a great movie. And we'll do it on this podcast one day. And it's a gritty it's the kind of gritty new hollywood movie that is becoming the norm in the 70s but it's also a crime drama like it's a it's french connection right it's the french connection yeah yeah i mean ben have you

ever seen the french connection i have not you'd fucking love it and you, you'll love it. What if there was just a grumpy old cop with a pork pie hat named Popeye who shot French heroin dealers in the subway? Yeah. Fucking the best. So that's the best picture winner. I gotta watch old movies. I feel like, I don't know. You're rhapsodizing about the 70s

over here. I mean, why not dip your toe? Yeah, because I love old music. Well, and like French Connection is when old movies get new. Do you know what I'm saying? Sure, sure. They get wrong. Yeah, it's like it's almost an embarrassment. I think that's what it is. There's just so

much that I know I haven't seen. Never feel embarrassed about something you haven't seen never feel embarrassed about something you haven't seen it's just a great opportunity to see it yeah you know whatever you know i'm i've become a big proponent of when people are like embarrassed and they go like oh you're gonna yell at me but i haven't seen blank i'm like i'm not gonna yell at you i'm gonna tell you how exciting it is that you have the opportunity to watch that for the first time and if you don't feel like watching it don't but i think you would like that movie. Or just as often I'll say to somebody, you probably wouldn't

like that. Like I know everyone probably guilt trips you because you haven't seen Blank but you might not like it. I don't know. You know, but it's nice like to say to you, Ben, you would love The French Connection. Do you know what the name of that character is? Popeye Doyle.

He wears a pork pie hat. He fried chicken is he over it oh beyond he's fucking he lives on over it boulevard you could argue this guy was never under it exactly he's bored over it not only that when when he interrogates people, when he interrogates potential suspects on the street, he holds them up and asks them, do you pick your feet in Poughkeepsie? Funny. That's his opener!

It won Best Picture and Best Actor! Here are the five Oscar nominees for Best Picture this year, Griff. It's Nicholas and Alexandra, which is your old Tony costume period epic it's the last picture show which is which we'll talk more about Bogdanovich next week

yes very very good and Cloris Leachman R.I.P. let's just say it the day we're recording this is the day that Cloris one of the best ever R.I.P. crazy mama herself all I've been doing is watching Mary Tyler Moore for the last couple of months and I just I always love that lady I love her every time I see her but I've spent like two months watching her day and night and she's just the

fucking best she's the fucking best um uh i've also been watching mary tyler moore recently it's so good right yeah of course the best i love that but phyllis rules fiddler on the roof french connection the fifth nominee of course a clockwork orange It's a crazy old and new variety there. You know what I mean? Clockwork Orange is number seven. The Mark Harris book, like 69 is that same thing where you have like four new Hollywood movies and then Dr. Doolittle. Like there was always that clash in the 70s where you'd have one thing that was so like old institution

and then these things that are just so shaggy and odd. And a lot of times the shaggy odd ones won. It was pretty odd. Now,iffin the number four movie in 1971 is like a cheesy coming-of-age drama that i feel like is essentially forgotten i basically have never heard of this movie but it was a big hit i don't i don't think you there's any way you know what this movie is called it's a robert mulligan film starring gary grimes jerry hauser and jennifer o'neill i think i'm going to go uh when you say the title but i i don't think there's any chance i recall it it's called summer of 42 oh yeah well i you know why i know that title because Because of the Simpsons episode.

Exactly. But like, it's not... No one's seen that movie like in the last 20, 30 years. No, absolutely not. But number four at the box office. Number five is this year's Bond movie. So for this year, it would be...

I'm bad at Bond chronology. Is this still... I know you are. Is this Roger Moore? It's the last... It's the last official Connery. Obviously, he does Never Say Never Again

in the 80s. Right. That doesn't really count. So it's not Diamonds Are Forever, is it? It is Diamonds Are Forever. Okay, okay. Yes, it is.

Connery's ill-advised return to the Bond franchise. You shouldn't have done it. One of the worst Bond movies. And then number six, Dirty Harry. Number seven, Clockwork Orange. Number eight, Carnal Knowledge.

Number nine, The Last Picture Show. Number ten, Griffin Willard. The rat movie. A wild ten. Isn't it? Yeah. The blockbusters are coming, right? The old-fashioned blockbusters are coming.

You're Poseidon Adventure. We got a couple franchises already brewing in there. We got Dirty Harry. We got Bond is now, you know, regular blockbuster material. This year, it's like last picture show cracked the top 10. I know. So wait, are four of the five best picture nominees in the top 10 at the box office? So French Connection, Fizzle on the Roof, Clockwork Orange, and Last Picture Show.

Yes, the only one that isn't is the Tony old-fashioned one, Nicholas and Alexandra. Like, that's even a hard thing to conceive of today. It's hard to conceive of four of the ten Best Picture nominees being in the top ten. Maybe you would get one. Right. Like, maximum. There will usually be one that actually was an unqualified hit. Right.

Anyway. Anyway. Anyway. Look, it's always fun when we get to talk about different eras. Absolutely. We'll do it more. People bring this up a lot where it's like,

do they not want to do old movies? We'll do old movies. Give me a break. It's hard. Look, here's the other thing. The more people continue to listen to the show, I'm not putting the onus on you, the listener. No, but that's true.

The more we can take a bit of a riskier move. Right. And May is obviously a short series, but we feel confident that the listenership isn't going to dip now. It's a confidence that you have given us, and we try to cash it in. Well, it's a balance, you know? And if we cover someone like Zemeckis, who's a lot bigger and more modern but long, then we'll follow that up with a couple shorter series. But also at this point, we'll know who won March Madness, and we put a lot of older directors in the bracket. So, who knows?

Shorties watching shorties. Shorties watching shorties. Remember that? The Comedy Central series? Why did you... I don't know. You said something about shorties, and I was just like, remember shorties watching shorties? I don't know. Anyway. So next week uh

good luck finding the movie oh yes well uh yes the heartbreak kid is next week it's often available on youtube it probably gets taken down once in a while but you can literally just type it into youtube you just gotta be persistent and look for it. It's often somewhere, but it's getting pulled left and right. Uh, but that is next week. That is her biggest hit. And we are discussing it with the great Avery Addison,

longtime friend, uh, friend, IRL friend of the show, uh, appearing on the show for the first time long overdue. Uh, so that is next week.

April will continue to be May. That's right. That's right, baby. And over on the Patreon, it's early April. We're right. While we're doing the Voyage Home, the Voyage Home just posted.

You guys have an episode planned for the 11th? I don't know if we want to talk about it yet though i mean we can say this here obviously by the point this episode comes out you haven't recorded it yet no so that's the only trepidation right we had a notion which was well there was an idea there was an idea i mean there was there's newman and haas you know this was the idea what if we do an evening it was an an established, you know, duo act of ours. An evening with Newman and Haas. We finally released the comedy album that was recorded back in the 1950s of the classic two-man comedy team, Newman and Haas. This is a thing we've considered.

Now, the restoration project is going to be very expensive to remaster the audio. We don't know, but if it sounds like something you want, then maybe make that known. We'll probably have decided already by the time you're listening to this, but maybe not. Oh, yeah, you'll have decided already. Maybe we can be talked out of or into it. No, you're going to do it.

It's going to be fucking great. Okay, great. So listen to An Evening with Newman and Haas. Hello. We're done, Griffin. Take a seat. We're done. Folks, thank you so much for listening. Because as we said, it allows us to do

stuff like this. It's nice that we've built a show where people will follow us even to filmmakers they haven't heard of or are hard to track down or any of those things. We really appreciate it. Next week, Heartbreak Kid. Thank you to Great American Novel, Lane Montgomery, for our theme song. Thank you to Joe Bowen and Pat Reynolds for our artwork. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media. And thank you to our editing team, Alex Barron, AJ McKeon. I'll say thank you to our Reddit for posting some real nerdy shit. And thank you to our friends at Night Owl for making some real nerdy merch that you can buy on our Shopify page.

Go to patreon.com slash blank check for the things that we just teased including comedy album i'm sure is going to be very sophisticated yes and and as always if i can this movie has the single longest tagline i have ever seen and i would like to end the episode by reading it in its entirety yeah go ahead it's very funny i was at it. Here is the tagline for a new leaf. The text takes up conservatively 50% of the poster, the top 50%. Romeo and Juliet, Bob and Bing, Leopold and Loeb, Heloise and Abelard, Ulysses and Grant, George and Martha, Martha and John, Bob and Carol, Ted and Alice, Bob and Alice, Ted and Carol, Bob and Ted, Carol and Alice, Popeye and Olive Oil, Maggie and Jigs, Pat and Dick, Julie and David, Yoko and John, John and Mary, Byron and his sister, Bonnie

and Clyde, Tarzan and Jane, Bill and Ku, Nip and Tuck, Henry VIII and Anne and Jane and Catherine and Catherine and Catherine, John and Priscilla, Liz eighth uh and ann and jane and catherine and catherine and catherine john and priscilla liz and eddie liz and mike liz and dick dick and sybil sybil and jordan eddie and debbie thick and thin muck and meyer frick and frack david goliath magen and david frankie and johnny mama and mia hollywood and vine anthony and Cleopatra, and now Henry and Henrietta. The love couple of the 70s and the laugh riot of the year. I dare anyone to put a longer tagline than that on your poster.