Blank Check with Griffin & David - A Simple Plan with Kevin Smith

Episode Date: May 1, 2022

$4.4 million, a murder of crows, and a cursed crashed plane…the ingredients for a real nail-biter of a fable! Filmmaker Kevin Smith (yep, THAT Kevin Smith) joins us to talk about one of his favorite films - 1998’s “A Simple Plan” - and to pay tribute to the late producer Jim Jacks, who shepherded several filmmakers (such as Raimi, the Coens, Richard Linklater, and Smith himself) as they made their transitions from scrappy indies to the big leagues. How successfully is Raimi able to meld his signature kinetic style with this film’s air of prestige? Was Billy Bob Thornton “the best actor alive between the years of 1998 and 2003,” per David? What would YOU do if you discovered all that money in the woods? Ben would buy an island, and there would be no problems or conflicts, and it would just be really chill and fun! Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com

There are days where I manage not to think of anything at all. Not the money, or the podcasts, or Jacob. Days when Sarah and I try to pretend we're just like everyone else, as if none of it ever happened. Those days are few and far between. The last line of the film. Yeah, my other one was, I wish someone else had found that podcast.

You're trying to do Paxton. You're doing all right, I think. You're doing all right. It's okay. It's hard to do. He's easy to imitate, but he's specific. He is deceased. So maybe we should leave his name out your mouth.

Wow. He's a dead man, for heaven's sakes. So your goal is, can we talk about A Simple Plan for two hours without ever mentioning the lead actors? I think we leave out of respect we leave the dead dead sometimes dead is better in a movie someplace

if you had if we had been on a game show and you were like here's a quote name the movie and the game show was very dire like squid game where they're like we're gonna going to shoot your wife if you get it wrong. I would have tearfully looked at my wife and been like, I'm sorry. You picked the most obscure quote from the movie.

And the fact that you threw in the word podcast threw me for a brief second. That's the thing we do here. We like to butcher quotes from movies. So you tossed podcast instead of murders, I think, right? I did. I thought it was funny to make it sound like the podcast was the worst thing that happened that was the thing what is this mad magazine shit that you have invited me to swap one word and it's a perfect way to describe it actually it's some mad magazine shit what is the premise of this show i i have no

grounding other than like months ago you told me what it was but and and i've the last thing i recall was that you were like uh we're doing sam ramey we're gonna be doing him for like three years or something so you're like i was like well i can i could talk about a simple plaque talk about anything but simple plan i love and you're like okay that will be in eight months yes yeah this is the problem with how we do this show we'll book someone and we'll be like so we'll email you a year from now we'll circle back a year from now sometimes people forget and then they they make the active choice a second time like i would like to do that movie and we're like i know we're circling back we know you want to do that you're doing that plan right yeah we

were counting on it no we i'll explain to you what the premise of this podcast is it's blank check with griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. This is producer Ben. Hi. And it's a podcast about filmographies. Yes. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers.

Yes. And are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Copy. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby. That is the shortest. We were one example to get our premise down to like 30 seconds. Right, people challenged us. If this was not, if we weren't doing it about Sam Raimi, and we were doing it about, who had a blank?

Gus von Sant, post Good Will Hunting, could literally do whatever he wanted and chose to do Psycho. Great example. Perfect example. Incredible example. And it's a huge bounce. Definitely a bounce. In the world of blank check,

is there a thumbs up, thumbs down like that? The check clear? What's your catchphrase? Hopefully it's not just putting the word podcast where murder was and shit. Unfortunately, it kind of is. I think sometimes they bounce baby. I've been telling everybody, this guy Griffin's a genius,

so I'm sure this podcast is brilliant as well. I think, look, we are very interested in the narratives of people's career, and we certainly are open with our opinions of what the movies are, but we're not saying like, this one's a clear, this one's a bounce in like a thumbs up, thumbs down way. Right, you don't cast judgment at the end of the day.

It's just like, this motherfucker... We can curse? Absolutely. This motherfucker, he could do whatever he wanted and this is what he did. And sometimes it's like this is what he did. And sometimes it's like, this is what he did. And there are clears... Or she. Yes, absolutely. There are clears that we dislike.

Have you guys deep dived on a female? We've done stuff with Elaine May, Nancy Meyers. Nancy Meyers, we've done, we did Elaine May, Nancy Meyers. And who, who was the second one? Nancy Meyers, Nora Ephron. How did,

wait. Catherine Bigelow. Hold on, hold on. I'm not trying to show off here. Step back in time. You did Nancy Meyers. Gina Prince-Hickwood. On a,

based on a dare or is somebody related? Well, the fans actually selected it because we do like a March Madness on social media. And they were like, dude,

Nancy Meyers. Yeah, she kind of became a scene roller. As a, and I don't mean to dismiss, I'm a terrible director, so Nancy Meyers. Yeah, she kind of became a steamroller. And I don't mean to dismiss it. I'm a terrible director, so Nancy Meyers has me beat by a country mob. But I would never have assumed when you told me about this podcast that you would have ever gotten a Nancy Meyers.

Like, we've done James Cameron, right? We've done Christopher Nolan. That makes sense. Sean Maughan. Right, Sean Maughan. People have had up and down careers. Yeah. All right.

So of the female directors... Yeah. Who were they again? Nancy Meyers. Incredible. Catherine Bigelow. Catherine Bigelow. That makes sense.

Nora Ephron. That makes sense. Jane Campion, did I say already? Jane Campion. That makes sense. Elaine May. Elaine May. The Wachowskis.

Makes sense. And Gina Prince-Bythewood. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense too. The only one... I mean, believe me, I'm not like cancel your show, but the only one that I bumped into was Nancy Meyers because in a million years, I can't imagine you.

She demanded massive budgets. Yeah. Yes. They were huge. Sort of plotless movies. Yes. There was a moment and she was sort of a brand onto herself. I think you see distress in me, but what I'm feeling is relief that somebody's finally exposing this charlatan.

No, I'm kidding. But she does spend a lot of money doing very simple things. Yes. Like, one could say she does Kevin Smith movies on a studio budget. I was going to say, she makes like an $80 million. Somewhere Nancy Meyers is like, take your name out my mouth mouth they are similar sort of like hangout movies they are and they're odd but the one is for like old rich people yes they're shaggy but then when you like read about when we did this podcast a few years ago yeah you know everyone her crews are like she's like

fincher it's like it's like 10 hours of figuring out what picture frame should be on the mantle you know like no because the yes how do you know all these people you read about things we've read crew people i work with i would always whenever i was on a set i'd ask crew people about like who they worked with and try to absorb the stories and they were like she is the single most demanding director i've ever i worked with fincher i worked with soderberg she's the one where you just go jesus christ can can we move on? And she's like, it's wrong. The sweater's at the wrong angle. In a million years, I never would have picked that. And I'm not saying like, I just assumed she phoned it in, but I thought she'd be a performance

person once she's got the beats and the jokes, but it's the look as well. All of it. And line reading, it's like Kubrickian control. I think it's why people do have that sort of specific obsession with her movies. Beyond, like, I love a rom-com, right? Right, right, right. Like, I do think that she, there's a weird bubble to her worlds that, you know, a Nora Ephron movie is a little different. Recently when Turning Red came out, there was that one review online where, I don't know who did it, but somebody was like,

this movie was made for her and like three people that live around her. No one else can relate to this right right that that sounds like the nancy myers movies but they have massive box office turning real everybody goes to see them right yeah yeah but the difference is that like i could take a page out of the myers book you should you know what i'm saying no but i think i mean you said you should a little too quickly there i feel like i was thinking the same thing i think there are a lot of similarities in in the two of you as film i think i do think weirdly it's true oddly enough i was sitting here a little bit a little judgy like you know not not on her just like really you guys were talking about that a cashmere sweater

is really soft yeah and warm and nice it feels good on your skin that's true no the funny thing is we we would have people like every year be like, when are you going to do this person? When are you going to do this person? We had this idea early on in the show where like we'll do a March Madness competition. We'll put 32 directors on a bracket. We'll let people vote every day head to head. And then one time a year we go, you get to pick who we cover. Right?

We put 32 people on there. We mostly put Nancy Meyers in there for diversity's sake. Not just as a female filmmaker, but like comedies. Not just film nerd directors. Not just genre guys. And in an almost Nancy Meyers film like twist, she wound up being the top choice. And like whooped PTA.

It wasn't like she had easy matchups. You guys have not done PTA yet? Nancy Meyers by popular demand. Before Paul Thomas Anderson. The PTAs. How has film Twitter let you guys go? We're doing Kubrick now. They don't like you guys either?

No, they're probably turning on us. Yeah, they're turning red. They're turning on you now that I'm on the show. They're like, that's when they jumped the shark. No, they might come all the way back around now. Do you ever have a filmmaker come in? Yeah, we have. Who?

We have. Who have we had? Alex Ross Perry. David Lowery. Chris White. Chris White. Lulu Wong. Yeah. Did The Farewell.

Basically anyone who's listened to the show and or his friends. Yes. Right. That helps. Right. Yeah. But like here's you're saying sort of like how do we look at careers. Right.

For example, if we were talking about the filmmaker Kevin Smith. Right. Don't. If we were. Yes. A term we like to use is the guarantor. Right. Which is the movie that gives you the blank check it's the movie where somehow now the the thing is unlocked right would be mine

clerks hands down right you have a career that is very similar i would say in structure in a lot of ways to sam raimi where it's like you have the bootstrappy like spit and gumption make a movie but everyone remembers and no one will ever forget who gives a shit about this kind of thing there are people who have forgotten but that i made clerks there are a lot of people that don't know that sam rainer made the evil dead because now they're like well that's fucking spider-man right i think that's true he sort of has two he transcended his uh his origins his humble. His humble origins tie in directly in mine because he was covered in so many books that I read. You know, mind you, when I started, there was no internet. So you couldn't just, you know, fuck a deep dive on an article about a director you liked.

Our guest today is Kevin Smith. You'd have to me as a filmmaker. Because it made me go the credit card route that I went. I collected a bunch of credit cards that I really didn't have the finances to back, but I got them. I worked at the video store, RST Video, the one that's in Clerks. Then I would apply, you know, and if you didn't apply, I went to a community college. They would bomb you with like applications for credit cards. And so I'd fill it in and say I was the manager of RST Video and I made $50,000 a year.

And this is 1991. I was the manager of RST Video and I made $50,000 a year. And this is 1991. So they would call RST Video to verify like, yeah, we're doing a credit check on Kevin Smith. I was like, oh, that's my manager. We're paying $50,000 a year. So they'd send me a credit card. And we just did that, me and Brian Johnson as a race friend of mine to see who can get more credit cards.

So I had them sitting in an underwear drawer, my underwear drawer at my house. Because my parents were like, never use plastic. It's the devil. Cash only. They're right. So they're absolutely right so i saved them never touched them until i was like oh i want to be a filmmaker yeah then i decided to use them the difference was i did not have the confidence to walk into a dentist office and say like there's 164 pages full of dick jokes set in a convenience store you have a few bucks for me right um so i i aside from like he was the guy who with a bunch of friends and a bunch of friends turned out to be like the coen brothers holly hunter and stuff like that um who like hard scrabble the bootstrap made a flick ran the camera around with like barry levinson and stuff like that

uh barry barry sonnenfeld sorry barry levinson um there was no like oh i could be him a he was making a genre picture uh b he had the confidence in his material to solicit investors. That's kind of where I had to let Ramey go. Somebody like Spike, Jim Jarmusch, Hal Hartley, they were more identifiable because they did it with peanuts and kind of... And also did stories about people that were just talking to one another. More talk.

As opposed to haunting. But the Ramey thing is like, it's him and his buddies like getting in a van and going to a plate right you know that that feels like it's like the gumption right i mean we we invoked you in an earlier episode as sort of saying that like the the 90s mere max wave of like you and tarantino and rodriguez and others but i feel like the three of you became like big cornerstones of this thing that was like look there are guys who bypass the traditional route they got their movies made in weird ways they didn't do this they didn't do that came like big cornerstones of this thing that was like look there are guys who bypass the traditional

route they got their movies made in weird ways they didn't do this they didn't do that they were outside the system they got this calling card movie it connected and now their careers are off and running and it feels like raimi was one of the early sort of examples that someone like you could point to and go huh that guy got there he did it first absolutely like he you know uh he blazed a trail i didn't necessarily follow his i didn't do like you know he's gifted the man was born to be a filmmaker i'm a fan who aggregated to direct his own stories there's a big difference um he was definitely inspiring but and definitely one of the ones that went first and laid the track but like oddly enough when i when i met him it

was like oh crap this is sam ramey but it wasn't like when i met richard link later where i was just like yeah if you don't take your journey i never think to take mine. Slacker was your complete turnkey. That was my path. And that makes sense. The parallels. Well, yeah, you've met Sam Raimi, though. What's Sam Raimi like? Sam Raimi is, I mean, you guys,

well, read and studied. The vibe I get is polite Midwestern dude. Incredibly. Right. Incredibly humble, self-effacing. Remember the Coen Brothers movie, the one that nobody liked. Hudsucker?

Yes. My favorite. I love Hudsucker. He is the elevator kid. Hey, buddy. Oh, buddy. Like, literally, that is him. Like, when I met him in real life, I thought he was doing an impression, because I saw that movie before I met Sam Raimi.

And we were introduced by Jim Jacks, who was the producer of one of the producers of a simple plan um jim jacks uh was like uh don't don't don't like fret he's gonna say buddy a thousand times it's not that he's forgotten your name and he's not fucking with yeah he's just like that's literally how he talks and so he introduced us and fucking i was like he's not he's just doing impression of that guy in hud sucker and then jim was like he is the guy in hud so he didn't play it but the colin brothers wrote it based on fucking his personality yeah he is darling this is my favorite sam raimi story and it's almost he's tangential to it okay but it is a jim jacks story so it does tie into a simple place produced this he was a producer he produced mall rats he was also producer of mall rats he produced days confused he produced uh tremors right raising arizona is his first

producing credit oh shit he worked on the mummy movies. Oh yes. He worked on like the whole Mummy, you know. Jim is like, I mean, you guys do filmmakers, directors, you don't do producers. We'll end up talking about producers a lot, but yeah.

To me, it's one of the most fascinating cases of a producer in this business that I ever met because he was a fan that aggregated

into producing. He was an engineering student. He was a military kid. His dad, he called his dad the colonel he's one of those families and stuff mom dad him and his younger brother and jim was a massive movie fan uh he would take his brother go to the movie theater they'd watch things then when the movie was done his brother said they would follow adults to the diner sit behind them and listen to their opinions and jim would tell his brother like they're wrong they don't understand jim was the internet before the

internet happened yeah so he loved movies his whole life but his old man was like you know military you know you're gonna be an engineer and so jim did as told and he became an engineering student and he wound up in um i think it was Washington, D.C., or that area. There's a theater there called the Circle Theater. Circle Theater is a rep house. They show indie films and stuff. Jim, as a young man, goes there, sees all the movies, and starts going up to the box office to say,

you know, you should really get this. I heard about this movie. I read about this movie in variety and stuff like that and mind you this is in the mid 80s so they actually start taking his advice they start programming movies that he tips them off to and they're making money so they say to this engineering student like what do you do and he's like i'm an engineer and they're like would you mind part-time booking our theater for us and he was like i would love to so boom one step closer to the dream of movies right right uh he's doing that for a red hot minute they're doing well and ted and and uh the other guy pederast peder i don't i don't know whatever their Petterath. Probably not Petterath. Yeah, I don't think it's Petterath. Whatever their name is, guys that ran Circle Films eventually.

But right now, it's just Circle Theater. Yeah. Jim and Ted, maybe their names are. They tell Jim Jacks, like, you know, if we had our own movie, we could show it, but we could also distribute it to the other exhibitors that we know in our circle. And you seem to know a bunch about this. Why don't you go out and see if you can find us a movie? So Jim goes to AFM for the first time ever. And again, just a fucking engineer

who now part-time books a theater. He goes to AFM. He finds a movie that he absolutely loves. American Film Market. American Film Market for those, I assume the Tony audience for this. I mean, I didn't think we were Hollywood Babylon where I have to explain everything

I mean this I assume most people know you're absolutely right a motion picture kid that movie the American film market so Jim is at the American film market and that is a marketplace where people go to buy films people go to sell films and stuff like it's not a film festival

it's a sales place Jim calls up the circle theater guys and he's like I think I have the movie it's wonderful film noir very throwback and that movie was Blood Simple isn't that fucking nuts

so he brings home Blood Simple Blood Simple becomes one of the best reviewed films of that decade and one of the best reviewed films of that decade. And one of the earliest Sundance indie sensations ever. Who the fuck are these guys? Who are these kids? They made it for nothing. It's incredible.

It's a throwback, but it's very modern at the same time. Frances McDormand gets notices for her performance. So the Circle Theater Cats are now Circle Films. And they have an option with these young filmmakers to do a feature. And so, the Circle Theater guys,

who are now the Circle Film guys, say to Jim Jacks, who is an engineer, we think you should be in charge of the movie. And just like that, Jim Jacks becomes a producer. And that's Raising Arizona.

And that is Raising Arizona. Perhaps the greatest fucking comedy ever made. Well, at least in the top ten. Somehow those motherfuckers found a way to make child kidnapping hysterical. But I feel like also Raising Arizona is a movie people are sitting down and they're like, I've never seen the camera do this. I've never seen a movie like this. Same thing.

And think about the quantum leap forward from Blood Simple to Raising Arizona. Two completely different films. It's not like, oh, well, I can see where one came from the other. They were establishing early on that we do what we do. And it's not going to be the same. They're like Ang Lee. Ang Lee is a very heightened version of that. Where it's like, you cannot fucking tell me what an Ang Lee movie is.

Other than about 90 minutes to two hours. That's the only thing they have in common. The thing with Ang Lee was, that's what people were saying, where they were like, I know you guys are doing him because, like, his blank check is Crouching Tiger, and he did Hulk, right? Like, that's sort of his, like, big... Although there's a lot of other...

But they're like, yeah, but what is an Ang Lee movie? And it's like, you know, he makes movies about families. He makes movies about, like, rigid tradition going up against... Like, there are themes, but he? And it's like, you know, he makes movies about families. He makes movies about like rigid tradition going up again. Like there are themes, but he definitely, every time is like, I want to do something new. And he is more of a sex thriller.

Very. I want to do a quiet family drama. As a filmmaker, like I, you know, before I was a filmmaker, I was a film fan. Yeah.

But as a professional filmmaker, that is a filmmaker that I look up to where I'm like, Jesus, could you imagine being that diverse? And he's cool. Seems like a good guy. Seems like a cool guy. Yeah, I was at an awards ceremony with him years ago and shit like that. I don't get awards anymore. But back then, I rubbed elbows with those types of people and stuff.

And he was a very, very chill dude. I loved The Wedding Banquet. Great movie. And think about, like, Wedding Banquet is not, I'm not saying, it's like Clerks, but it's very simple, quiet movie and shit like that.

That motherfucker went on to make Crouching Tiger, fucking Ice Storm, fucking, no, did he do Ice Storm? Yes. Yes.

That's the thing. Fucking Hulk. But off of Wedding Banquet, he's like, I'll do a Jane Austen movie, I'll do a 70s key party drama. Yes.

I'll do a Confederacy Western epic. Right. That's a big blank check. Pretty astounding. And then like, okay, that didn't work. Fine. I'll make like a Chinese martial arts movie. Made $100 million.

Right. And also like changed things. Absolutely. Like with that one martial arts movie, like a lot of people probably don't draw the lines anymore but like crouching tiger invaded mainstream cinema and took a style and put it in marvel movies 20 years later like it's now the standard people 10 years earlier not only that i truly believe that the popularity of foreign tv shows being watched subtitled agreed across america on netflix and other streaming services like doesn't happen within a 20-year slow burn of crouching tiger

right there's the story that um uh what's his name uh uh barker and bernard the sony classics guys sony pictures classic yeah uh i think it was bernard i heard say once that he was like the moment when he realized that crouching tiger was going to be like a crossover success, that it wasn't just going to be like, wow, this thing made 15 million dollars. That's right. But like this is going to play like a blockbuster as he walked through a mall and he heard two like teen boys walk out of the theater and they went, man, those subtitles were cool. cool. And he was like, I don't know how we did this. We didn't quantify it. We didn't try to sell this, but somehow for the first time, this thing that had always been seen as an impediment to foreign films

crossing over with American audiences, that they were allergic to them, had some cool quality attached to this film. And I now, I think, do you watch shit with just subtitles on now? I read things more. I have now taken to consuming movies the same

way i used to consume comic books yeah which is all the dialogue and a cursory glance at the images same thing with a movie i'm watching a movie and i find myself reading more than anything else and i'm like yeah i understand like i know the there's a visual there but like i'm i'm more trained to read a movie at this point well Well, and I like hearing how actors deliver dialogue, obviously, but I also like being able to visually see the writing. Yeah. You know? It became, I have a baby, and so like, it became a thing like, let's have the TV a little quiet and the baby's sleeping and put the subtitles on. And now it's just sort of like automatic for me to have the subtitles on.

It's also a fun game to see like what they fuck up. We, of course, rewatched, I imagine all of us, A Simple Plan. Yes. I definitely didn't need to rewatch because this is a movie that my wife and I this is a building, fundamental building block of our relationship. One of the first movies we ever saw together. I want to dig into this but just to step back, when

I texted you like nine months ago and said we're going to do Raimi, our show books up stupid early. Would you, you know, to be fair, initially we were going to do it earlier. And then Dr. Strange got pushed. That's true. And so we had to kind of move it down the counter a little bit.

Right. So we flipped an order. But I none of them had been booked. Right. And I said, open game. If you were willing to come on our show, you could do any one of these. And we had sort of in our mind assumed like he's probably going to a spider-man spider-man and he's written spider-man comics and evil dead would make sense and sort of the bootstrapping this the development of

early filmmaker and you just wrote without any hemming and hawing simple plan one of my favorite movies of all time yeah and also does not resemble the filmmakers repertoire no no there's two shots in the movie that make you go like right oh that might have that was very ramey-esque becky becky and baker shotgun blast absolutely right then and there that's the and also the fox diving into the hen house yes which is very early on he pushes very early he pushes as the fox jumps yes and you're like well that looks like ramey but other than that and the shotgun blast this could have been directed by anyone who wasn't Sam Raimi. It's like a Dogma 95 experiment for him. Very much. Can I force myself to not use my bag of tricks?

One of the most disciplined films I've ever seen in my life, considering the filmmaker. Yes. Like one of the most manic i mean and we'll talk about the studio was very much like is he gonna is he gonna take it easy we've read this script the camera can't be flying all over the house once you know once again this is where like the the unsung hero of all this is jacks jim jacks well i just want to point out and we've set up a couple threads here we need to resolve but like even in the list you were just running through raising arizona uh mall rats days of confused are all examples of guys who had made their films outside of the mainstream system and he's there producing the movie that's trying to work them into the system and not let their voice get lost always right like that there's something very telling there he was a sund kid. He loved to go to Sundance and pick up, shop for talent and stuff like that.

But he was a guy who believed in somebody, brought them in, and then had to sell that person. And had to protect them. Jean-Claude Van Damme was one of his. Wow. He brought him into the mainstream. John Woo. Right, because he produced Hard Target. Yes.

And John Woo was Jim Jackson. because he produced hard target yes and john woo was was jim jackson and like jim always told the story of showing you know hard target to universal for the first time and they were like why are there so many bullets and why there's so many birds and they're like you know jim was like that's what he does that's his thing and they're like well you got to take some of that stuff out so jim led a very frustrated existence as a universal exec and then he uh sean daniels used to run the studio uh sean left that position or was kicked out and got a producing deal for a company called alphaville that's where he teamed up with jim jacks he brought jim with him because he liked jim's taste jim style but you are absolutely right jim was the guy who was like, I saw them do this thing.

I believe in this talent. I'm going to bring him in to the studio side and work with them. But I got to keep their voice intact. Like, I'm not trying to get them a paycheck. I'm trying to figure out if I can let them make their kind of movie with studio money. His eyes lit up when I met him at the sundance film festival in 1994 after clerks won the filmmakers trophy and he comes up to me is introduced to me by john pearson who is our producer's rep john's wife janet runs south by southwest legends of american independent indie

film um so he introduces us and you know i'm like oh i know, I know Dazed and Confused. I knew Jim's work. Tombstone. Like, you know. So he goes, I loved Clerks. I was going to try to buy it, but Harvey bought it out from under me. And I was like, oh, right on. Yeah, as he did. He's going, I would have let you. I would have remade it, but I would have let you keep 75% of it.

That was his exact quote. At the Sundance party. We're tossing this out. Yeah. Just like, I'm like, oh. Good proof of're tossing this out yeah just like I'm like oh good proof of concept and I said well I was like

I'm glad it went to Miramax I didn't want to remake the movie and I said what part could I have kept and he goes nobody fucks a dead guy in a universal picture

and I was like fair enough fair lines so he goes what do you want to do what do you think about doing next I said mall rats and he goes what's that I was do uh what do you think about doing next i said uh mall rats and he

goes what's that i was like this is my this is i was in the business 30 seconds yeah right and this is what i said to him i goes it's clerks in a mall that's my elevator pitch and he goes oh he's going well what's going to happen is uh he's going uh disney because miramax picked us up and disney owned miramax at that point he goes disney's gonna bring you out and meet have you meet all the studios uh Hollywood Touchstone blah blah blah uh pitch them whatever you want don't give them that mall rest you come to the Black Tower and you pitch that with me at Universal and I was a big Universal fan like you know fucking John Hughes John Landis like two of my favorite movies as a child, you know, Breakfast Club, Blues Brothers came right from their animal house,

came right from their jaw. Like, you know, Universal more so than Warner Brothers. Warner Brothers became the comer later in my career with like making Batman and stuff like that. But prior to that, Universal had every movie that I ever loved. Spielberg was.

You know what I'm saying? Amblin's right there. Also, David and I have talked about this a lot, but nothing gets me more amped up before a movie than the Universal logo. You know what I'm saying? Amblin's right there. Also, David and I have talked about this a lot, but nothing gets me more amped up before a movie than the Universal logo. And even removing the history, it's just the fanfare.

Have you ever gone into the building there to have the little ball, the tennis ball, the super pinky that they painted the earth, and that's the fucking logo? And you're like, this? I know. Tiny ball is what got me excited? It's just so fucking majestic

these movies are universal yeah i mean only thing better than that galactic you know nobody went no one's got that yet but he um he he was talking about jim jacks was talking about a simple plan in 1995 right they but the book is 93 he he had this thing he was he had you know uh i don't know if they still do but in the business they used to have these like long blank cards that would have your name on the top or whatever and you write on them and put them attach them to scripts and shit like that glorified fucking scrap paper and whatnot he had these and said you know jim james jacks at the top and he had them laid out on his desk in his house and he had a set laid out on his desk in the office at alphaville on the lot

and it would be this year next year year three year four and when you looked at the cards you saw the entire movie industry laid out for the next few years it wasn't just his stuff it was everything it was his stuff okay it was his but he was pushing shit that in 95 i was like jim right right mummy movies what are you out of your mind fucking nobody cares about the mummy slasher movie jim. Jim was a huge... No, Kevin, Kevin, it's going to be a period piece. Trust me. It's in the 20s.

Who are you going to get to play? George of the Jungle? Carry on, Jim. He was the guy that would definitely, like... He would talk about people that were legends to me and Mosher. Scott Mosher was my producer. And so on Clark's's mar it's all the early stuff so we spent a lot of time with jim i spent a lot of time writing mallrats with

jim i would like fax pages to him he would comment and shit like that and we had this pretty tight relationship his he would talk about the coen brothers and sam ramey and billy bob thornton incessantly, incessantly all the time. And it's so much so that me and Scott would make fun of him because he would be like, well, you know,

Billy Bob and the cones. And then we would always be like, ladies and gentlemen of Madison square garden, welcome to the stage. Billy Bob and the cones. He talked about Raimi all the time. He was just like, wow, you know, Raimi, because he brought Raimi into the studio with Darkman.

Oh, no, with Darkman. Okay, yeah, right. He was another transition filmmaker. So he would talk about Raimi incessantly. Be like, oh, Raimi and I were like this. He would talk about Raimi and the Cones and Billy Bob and say that they had the type of relationship that me and Scott and Jim had,

which to me, you know, is easy to say when they're not around. So most of the times I was just like, I felt like, you know, maybe he saw the relationship differently because these cats have all gone on and they've not reached back and stuff like that he may have helped them start in the mainstream side of things but

now they're doing their thing they're doing their thing and they ain't reaching back and you know i was young in my career and so i'd be judgy about that be like why wouldn't they help the guy to fucking help them and shit um but according to jim they were going to it was always laid out in the cards man there's gonna be this one there's gonna be this one there's gonna be this one and a simple plan was always next to sam ramey's name and so he was like do you ever read that book i was like no he's like it's wonderful book about like you know fucking finding money and everything goes wrong and he said it too he goes least sam ramey thing you'll ever read in your life right he's gone but i think he's absolutely right for this is sam's academy award movie this is the movie that they were pushing so hard.

Not like over-pushing where they were pressuring people and people were like, get out of my face. But they honestly believed that this is how Sam Raimi was going to win his Oscar. Because it's a strong fucking beloved book. Great fucking script written by the author of the book itself. It's Sam maturing as a filmmaker. You know, he may have always worn suits on sets but

this is the first time he made a suit movie of sorts even though it's set in like rural minnesota or i think michigan minnesota minnesota yeah minnesota because that's where he's from right um and it didn't go as planned like you know people seem to respect it got good reviews but that and there was a movie he made after this was The Gift Gift is after this

and that's also Jim Jacks also Jim Jacks the two movies where Jim was pushing so hard and he did For Love of the Game For Love of the Game is in between

the Kevin Costner baseball drama but this and The Gift you're right that's where it feels like he's like make a prestigy movie that'll be a Toronto

this is a good uncomfortable name to bring up, but this was Jim Jacks trying to be Harvey. Right. He was like, I'm going to get fucking, I'm going to get Sam his Oscar. Yeah.

And it's funny. And then he'll work with me forever and so forth. Which is like, I mean, the way. It's funny because after that, he then mostly does the Mummy movies and stuff. He kind of just works out of it. Jim winds up doing sam ramey movies right right the mummy yeah very much so and and ramey swings wildly out of prestige and

back to like wild wackadoo right an incredible career oh absolutely yeah he at one point jim was like um he talked about sam ramey so much that honestly thought, like, I don't think he knows him at all. Right. There was a certain point where I'm like, I've not seen this guy anywhere. I never called. There's no picture of him on his dad. Is this your uncle who works for Nintendo? And so he did eventually introduce you to Sam around this time.

He did. Eventually, like, it was, we were, we made Mallrats. I think we were in post on Mallrats and we finally got to meet Sam Raimi. And I was like, oh, shit. But it's funny, because Mallrats is 95, right? That's when Sam Raimi does Quick and the Dead. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Which is a great movie.

Wonderful movie. Columbia TriStar movie, I think. Which we just re-watched and talked about and had so much fun with. And that's like, what's it? Hackman, Stone, DiCaprio, Crow. DiCaprio right before Titanic. Russell Crowe right before LA Confidential.

Everyone's popping in it. And how many of those cats returned to work with Rami on a thing? None. No. Unbelievable. That is weird. Of the four. Because he, from all reports, is beloved.

People aren't like, I hate working for this guy. He's no Nancy Meyers in terms of like, you know, attention for detail that irritates the crew. I think everyone had a good time on that movie except for Hackman who seems like, you know,

an intense dude. An ordinary guy in general. From time to time, yeah. But that's Crow's first American movie, period. You would think that he'd want to work with Rami again.

It's like pre-virtuosity. It's like, it's truly like this Australian guy is going to knock your socks off. And mind you, that's pre-Spider-Man. Yes. Oh, yeah. So like, if's truly like this Australian guy is going to knock your socks off. And mind you, that's pre-Spider-Man. Yes.

Oh, yeah. So, like, if you're Russell Crowe, and you're like, oh, I did Quick and the Dead with Sam, he's a good guy, and then he becomes fucking the Spider-Man director, aren't you calling him every day to be like, I'm a good guy? That's what I'll be. That's why Russell Crowe, they're working on it. It's not bad. He's really the king of the world, when spider-man because he just won an

oscar he just is that is that his blank check for you guys or no wait no no quick in the dead no that's no no spider-man yeah what would you say for me is weird because yeah he's like up and it's like evil dead careers right evil dead's his first blank check. And then he gets to make Crime Wave. And that doesn't work. So he retreats. He does Evil Dead 2. Did you just reference Crime Wave? We sure did. Wow.

We fucking did an episode on it. We did. Did you really? Oh, yeah. We do it more often. That takes me back to the RST video store, the video store from Clerks, where I watched that. Yeah.

Like, it wasn't available at other video stores. For some reason, they had a copy of Crime Wave. And I'm like, this is the same Raimi movie. Yeah, it is. How have I never heard of this? Right. That's what we talked about. I mean, with the network, it's like, right. Evil Dead's what we is the same Raimi movie. Yeah, it is. How have I never heard of this? Right, that's what we talked about. I mean, within the

arc, it's like, right, Evil Dead's what we call the guarantor, right? This is the thing that gives you a name where the studio goes, what else do you have?

Right? Then Crime Wave is the first bounce. Evil Dead 2 is the first blank check that gets him the run of Darkman, Army of Darkness,

Quick and the Dead. Right. And then it's like... Quick and the Dead, this is the whole thing, like Quick and the Dead is like... Hurts him somehow?

Kind of a bounce. I mean, it didn't do well mean it didn't do well i think cost a fair amount of money yeah i think it was weirdly seen by the studios as like a sharon stone bandy project that hadn't figured out right like that's when everyone's turning on sharon stone for whatever and also this was that period where like there were more than one western yes a lot right the west like the bloom was off the rose like post unforgiven too many westerns right we're sort of charting that's sort of the last of the 90s western revival that's like what i remember of that movie is the last minute loading of the gun yes give me a bullet give me a bullet it's so you should really like very kinetic

rainy expressive camera like and it's like plot light it's like here's the town we shoot each other no there's not a lot of you know anyway it's like blood sport with quick draw right the opposite of simple plan which is all plot all character all nuance backstory to sift all like terrible decision after terrible decision which never seems terrible in the moment. But like Quick of the Dead, he goes like, well, I guess I tried to play within the studio system. It didn't really work. He was really, for these quotes that I'm reading, like he was really depressed. He was like, I felt like a dinosaur.

I couldn't change with the material. He goes to TV. He kind of had like a big TV. That's right, Hercules. That's what happens in between Quick and the Dead and Simple Plan. He got rich. He built an empire. Yeah, he got rich.

He co-created Mantis. Remember Mantis? Oh my lord. Which he did with Sam Hamm? Yeah. Which, that didn't take off. But yeah, he did American Gothic, which was one of those sort of classic- Gary Cole.

With Gary Cole. Who winds up in a Simple Plan. Who's in this. Or was in a Simple Plan before. No, no, no. It's because of, and American Gothic, like sort of pre-Cable

was one of those TV shows where everyone was like, you know, that show got canceled, but it was really good. Like, you know, one of those. Like Grown Up.

Like Twin Peaks. That show was kind of right. A little evolved. Right. But then, yeah, he makes a ton of money off of freaking Hercules. Like that is,

that is sort of weird to think. And that was at a time too when the business was very bifurcated. Yes. There was movies and there was TV. And if you were doing TV. We don't want to talk to you. Yeah. But he didn't give a fuck because he was like, I'm printing money in New Zealand.

He's doing pulpy genre TV in New Zealand before Lord of the Rings. Like that is so second-class citizen, even if he's making fucking fistloads of cash. The studio's going to be like, oh, Sam Raimi gave up on being a serious filmmaker, to some degree. And also, he involved family, like his brothers.

In many ways, it was probably a bomb. I think it was nice. You know, a few studio projects in a row where it's like well they did okay but it didn't like turn me into a thing and because it's syndicated no one's bugging him he's not getting like studio notes he's not you know yeah do you know what he was attached to what movie he was attached to at this time like off quick and the dead that he eventually drops out of no jack frost Jack Frost with George Clooney.

The snowman comes alive. Instead of Michael Keaton? Yes. That's why the snowman in Jack Frost looks like George Clooney. Look at the snowman again. He's got George Clooney's kind eyes. George Clooney dropped out late, post-Batman and Robin, where he was like, I gotta fucking get straight. George Clooney was like, I can't be taken.

They were just like, we gotta get another Batman, quick. Yeah. Seriously. But you look at the snowman and you're like, that is a snowman caricature of George Clooney. Is it a Warner Brothers movie? It looks more like Clooney. Yep.

God, they have like a fucking list of eight people. Yes. That it's like, if he's busy, get this one. Yeah. They're a very incestuous little company.

They really hire from within all the time. Oh, look, the brothers helping each other out from the very beginning. Good point. Clooney drops out, so Raimi's like, forget i won't do jack frost i guess everyone just could call which

like let's just stop for a second and be like could have been cool understand ramey take on twinkly eyed clooney you know in the 90s could have been something it does feel like clooney then again it could have been the thing that led him back to New Zealand. Exactly. I have to create another syndicated show. Clooney's like, don't kill me off, honey. I'm sticking around. Yeah, there you go.

It's a thing on the internet. Right. Because think about it. If you're going to caricature Michael Keaton into a snowman, the eyebrows are very different than that. Right? That's the number one feature you focus on is the arch. It's true. He doesn't have his Batman eyes.

Right. And the pursed lips and all of that. That's crazy. So do you think Clooney watches the movie and goes like, hey, man. It's me. That's fucking me. You guys owe me. How about a little wet my beak a little?

I know. Do they kick him some money? That's me. That's me. That's me. It's like in Funny Farm when Chevy Chase is like, I'm the squirrel. The squirrel's me. Yeah.

In the book. Sorry, I pulled up very deep cuts. No, I like that. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. When are we doing that dude's career? Who directed Funny Farm? He's the same guy that did George Roy Hill.

Oh, wow. Wait, that's a George Roy Hill. Wow. Okay. Yeah, you're right. And he also did, of course- Butch Cassidy. The Sting.

The Sting. Right. One of the biggest hits in Hollywood history. Isn't that crazy? It's his last film. It was his last movie. I saw it in a theater. I paid money to see that.

Wow. With two reasons. One, I was a Chevy Chase fan, but the other is I was a George Roy Hill fan. And the whole thing with George Roy Hill is he died like 15 years later. That's the movie, though, where he was like, all right. Yeah. Yeah. It was just like, you know what?

I'm going to live for 15 years because i've been doing this shit he made one of my favorite movies of all time aside from of course the previous i mentioned ones uh the world according to carp yeah oh yeah fucking adore that movie that movie is fascinating yeah um he made a lot of good movies he's an interesting one because it's like he did make culturally cultural landmark movies impact like dented the universe and yet i feel like he's not talked about as like some great auteur it's more like yeah he was uh you know he knew what he was doing another one like that where his name gets thrown around a lot but considering how often his films are referenced yes not just as movies but as like everyday culture like the idea of in all the presence

men type situation i know which obviously when we think of woodward and bernstein we think of his version of woodward and Bernstein more than the real guys. Sophie's Choice is one of the most used terms in American vernacular. What was that man's name? Alan Bakula. Alan Bakula.

And he made like six of those movies. He made that fantastic fucking Harrison Ford presumed innocent movie. Yeah, that movie rules. Where the third act turns on Bonnie Bedelia stealing his cum. Yeah. Which, as a child, terrified me.

I was like, that's a thing? Now I have to worry about that? They can steal your cum in the night and blame a crime on you? Cum burglars? That's also a classic Raul Julia. I cannot believe that you have never made a movie called Cum Burglars. I will now. I hadn't had the title.

Yeah, Cum Burglars. Raul Julia is amazing in that movie. Raul Julia is incredible in that movie. Raoul Julie is incredible in that movie. Brian Dennehy. Yeah. God, that movie's so great. You're right. Pakula.

Have you guys done Pakula? No. He's a good one, though. Two names right there. George Roy Hill and Pakula. And I know it's like, we don't need to heap more praise on white men. But still, these are two white men who made brilliant movies. And are never talked about in the pantheon.

George Roy Hill also made- George Roy Hill is sexy of like a Quentin Tarantino or Robert Rodriguez, where you know their name, a celebrity or something like that. But they made some of the greatest American films we've ever seen. He also made Slapshot, George R.R. Hill. Oh, right, right!

Which is like another kind of landmark movie. God damn it, man. This is a dude who like ran with fucking Paul Newman for a while. And he also, yeah, he made a lot of good movies. Kalani Kitchen and Bob, how can i help you i'm looking for a riobel touchless kitchen faucet in brush gold do you have it in stock yes we actually have all the gold four sets in stock even the riobel shower kit with matching faucet yep we've got that too thanks and by the way

why is the sign at your Barry location upside down? Well, that's just because our price is upside down, too. Kalani Kitchen and Bar. Visit kalani.ca for your nearest location. Do you know the procession, Kevin, of people who almost directed Simple Plan before it finally comes around? Yeah, so do you know who initially gets the rights before anyone else? No. For a million bucks when the novel is not even purchased.

All right. So this is 1993. Yeah. Because the Jim Jacks thing, my question has always been, how does it end up at Raimi when it's such an unconventional choice? It's because it got- It makes sense that Jacks had been pulling for him the whole time. Yes.

Right. And pursuing. Yeah. And I think Jim got the project when he moved over to Paramount. Yes. They were based at Universal with over to Paramount. Yes. They were based at Universal with Alphaville.

Yes. And then they left and they went to Paramount and I think when they went to Paramount, there was a... It was a distressed project. You may take...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was able to cherry pick. is going to blow your mind, the fucking arc of this. So Mike Nichols buys it. And this is sort of... Where is Mike Nichols?

I'd buy that. This would be post... Post like postcards from Henry around that period. Right. So I could see this. Mike Nichols buys it. And this is sort of, where is Mike Nichols? I'd buy that. This would be post regarding Henry around that period. So I could see this. Mike Nichols pays a million dollars for the rights and says, Scott Smith, you're writing the screenplay. Like, you know, so brings him in. Who'd never written a screenplay before. No, he wrote a story for The New Yorker that was well-received.

A literary agent calls him up and said, what else do you have? And he says, I have this novel I wrote five years ago that no one ever bought. And that novel's Simple Plan. Like, it's been sitting on a shelf. It's a bottom drawer thing. Yeah.

And so they, it gets published, it gets bought, film rights acquired immediately, they hire the guy, they go, Mike Nichols bought your fucking script and he wants you to adapt it.

Like a total Cinderella story. This guy's beside himself. Straight to the moon, yeah. So then, Nichols gives up on it for whatever reason. It's not taking too long. It goes,

and Nichols is one of those guys who's attached to a lot of movies. Right, right, right. Goes to Ben Stiller, was gonna direct it with Nicolas Cage in the lead role. What year is this?

This is 94, apparently. Okay, so that's post, this would be Stiller after Reality Bites. A pre-Mable guy. He's done Reality Bites and they're like what could he what else could he do right and then it goes to john doll i guess post last

absolutely fucking makes total sense and also shocking that it didn't get made with that guy right so that is kind of shocking right stiller brings on cage cage presumably brings on stall smith has said that stiller's the one who really helped him. Dahl, sorry. That's right. Well, why do you... Oh, he brings on Dahl because he just did Red Rock West. Right. Oh my God, this is like fucking...

We're like cops figuring out a forensic murder. He brought in Cage. Of course, Red Rock West. Why didn't we think of this? Everyone get the string. We got to put the Carrie Matheson board up and figure it out. But Smith credits Stiller as being the guy who helped him shape the script.

He's like, that's of all the directors I worked with. That was the guy who taught me how to write a screenplay, helped me understand the difference in the mediums, really helped my hand through it for years. Yeah. So what he's attached, but then he's like,

fuck it. I want to do cable guy. I guess so. Again, he apparently he didn't like, or he was nervous that for cage was going to get $4 million to be in it. Maybe he's worried about the budget. So let's put a pin right there. Cage was going to get $4 million to be in it. Maybe he was worried about the budget. So let's put a pin right there.

Cage was going to play the Bill Paxton part? Now, the other thing I read— I think that might have been like— In this particular part, it would be like using a Maserati to deliver some DoorDash. You know what I'm saying? That guy is incredibly gifted and that role is very straight.

It's not the showy role. The showy role and one of the reasons I wanted to do this one of my all time favorite and if not my all time favorite performance in motion pictures and I don't mean like, oh, I just love it

because I'm rooting for this guy or I love the way he did it. No, no, no. I mean, this motherfucker has transcended performance into that is not acting, that human being exists and they just roped him in for this movie. Everyone else in this movie is acting

and that ain't a bad thing. That's what you want them to do. I'm hoping you're about to say Chelsea Ross. I want you to throw a huge curveball. Can you's chelsea ross the way she took that shot everyone else is is acquitting themselves insanely admirably uh they're doing they're acting and that's what you want an actor to do is act billy bob thornton okay just i mean i'm gonna here i'm gonna take a shot in the dark Sold his soul to the devil for the gift of being able to pull that performance together. That human being exists.

That's not Billy Bob Thornton. It is astonishing. It's incredible on how this motherfucker did not win. Yeah. And how he's not just in everything. We can talk about that Oscar risk. Well, let me throw this at you now, actually. I'll pause it.

Because this is, I've said this to you, Griffin. Well, let me throw this at you now, actually. I'll pause it. I've said this to you, Griffin. My theory that from 96 to maybe like 03, you can say Thornton's the best actor alive. And it's one of those things. Give me the movies. I'm going to give you the movies.

So starting with Sling Blade. Absolutely. Which a lot of people don't appreciate anymore. Remember? Huge landmark thing. I'm also like, for the amount of people that are like, my wife, about Borat, back in the day, they'd be like,

mmm, french fries. I mean, have fried potatoes. Everybody did that. Have you ever listened? Have you ever listened to the face and the voice

and the lines? There's everything. Have you ever listened to the Armageddon DVD commentary where Affleck, yeah. And to be fair, anytime Thornton is on screen,

he just goes right there. Every few months, Twitter rediscovers Ben Affleck's commentary on him again i would suggest you listen to any ben affleck commentary pre pre um uh what was that fucking movie uh um pearl harbor oh sure sure is that when you finally learned to maybe not candid human being i've ever met in my life. I honestly feel like I learned my candid art, the art of being candid,

the art of just saying a fucking thing from him. He was guileless. I mean, he'll still do it. He'll still do it. Sometimes. But he's got a governor and has for years in a good way. Sure, sure. Because he would just say, like, I would be like,

this is shocking. You're allowed to fucking say that? Because in Armageddon, he's like, that helicopter costs costs like 300 grand i don't know why it's there you know he's like he's calling out like a michael bay was like where he's like michael like why would we send why would we send drillers to spaces shut the fuck up ben dumbass david paid top dollar for the out of print dv, specifically for the commentary a couple of years ago. I need to fucking watch this thing. It's so good. He's one. Honestly, I mean, it's sidebar, but Affleck, one of the five funniest human beings I've ever met in my life.

Wow. Hands down. Very funny dude. Back to Thor. I do want to shout out Priestling. One false move is kind of a great under sung. Wonderful. Also, talking about what you're talking about.

Ties back to the director. It was... Carl Franklin. Carl Franklin. Very film noir. Yeah. Very Coen brothers. One false move and Blood Symbol are a perfect double feature.

But you're talking about sort of Coen's rainy Billy Bob coming from a similar thing. It was that thing where Billy Bob always said, like, he was a struggling actor. He was working some catering job. I forget who it was. thing where billy bob always said like he was a struggling actor he was working some catering job i forget who it was do you know the story a struggling actor who was in tombstone produced by jim jacks right and he played the the guy you know who was he was a heavier set dude then that's where jim jacks comes to know billy bob thornton sits around talking to him between takes and that's where he's like, he builds that connection,

which eventually winds up with Billy Bob in A Simple Plan. I forget who it is. And I don't know if you remember, if you know this anecdote, David, but he was working a catering job as a struggling actor and he went up to someone. I think it was a director, but he went up to him and he was like,

what advice can you give me? And the guy was like, you got to write your own material. Yeah, that is interesting. You're a guy where it's not going to happen. It's Billy Wilder. Billy Wilder. It's Billy Wilder.

Billy Wilder? He was like a cater waiter. Yeah. And he's just like, can I talk to you? Like, you know, Billy Wilder is at some industry event. Right. And Billy Wilder is like, you should write if you want to. Billy Bob's like, I can't make it happen.

And he's like. Billy Wilder has to be like 89 at this point? Yes. Yeah. Right. Maybe not. I don't know. Like late 80s. Probably in his 70s. I can't make it happen. Billy Wilder has to be like 89 at this point? Yes. Maybe not. I don't know, like late 80s, probably in his 70s. But I think Wilder correctly sees you're not a conventional type.

Right, sure. If Hollywood's going to make sense of you, you have to be the one who packages yourself. So post-Sling Blade, you know, he's got, okay, he wins an Oscar, but like he's in The Apostle. He's in U-Turn. And he wins the Oscar. For writing. Screenplay. For screenplay, but not for performance. Nominated for acting's in U-Turn. And he wins the Oscar. For writing. Screenplay. For screenplay, but not for performance.

Nominated for acting, he loses that. But he does win the Oscar. And it was like Hollywood story. He was there. He was the hero of that Oscar season because it's like this dude wrote, directed, starred. And this is pre-Angelina Jolie? Yes. Yes, because that's late

90s. But that's coming up. That's the blood in the vial because that's her Oscar year I can't remember so then he's got Simple Plan he's got Armageddon

which I think he's incredible he's wonderful in Armageddon he's got Primary Colors it's the size of Texas

Mr. President one of my favorite Primary Colors I love Primary Colors and he's playing what's his fuck essentially James Carville

yes and he's so where he's playing what's-his-fuck, essentially. James Carville. Yes, and he's so fun. He's like, they started tearing pieces off of my mama. She didn't deserve that. When they're having a mom-a-thon. He's so fucking good in that movie. All right, what else? He writes The Gift, which I forgot. He's the screenwriter of that movie.

That Sam Raimi directed? The Sam Raimi film, yeah. And what year is that? That's 2000. He also writes and directs All the Pretty Horses, which is the whole Mishigas, right, where the movie gets taken away from him. Did you, by the way, see the crazy detail

that the first time Nichols leaves Simple Plan, it's because he wants to develop All the Pretty Horses instead? Oh, that's crazy. So all this stuff is just floating around. Then, in 2001, he's got Monsters Ball, Bandits, Man Who Wasn't There. The kind of crazy- Hold on, Monsters Ball, Bandits, and that's the Willis movie?

Yeah. Oh, and the Coen Brothers movie. But that's where he's a lead in three really weird different movies. And it's like, this guy is a lead, I guess, right? Like this guy is a marquee guy. And it was the challenging Coen brothers too one of the first challenging brothers and he's really still one of their most challenging movies it's a very cold and then in 2003 he's in bad santa and it's like it's a hit it's a you know comedy that goes over

yeah and then he pops up in love actually he's really funny in one scene in Intolerable Cruelty. You're kind of like... Intolerable Cruelty, side note, on Jim Jack's cards was Intolerable Cruelty. That was the Coen Brothers script. That he was just like,

I'm going to work with the Coens again. And it eventually, he let it go to, what was his name, Ron Howard. They produced it. Brian Grazer.

Imagine. Coen Brothers wound up directing right they were originally hired I think just to write it I think Jim is I don't think Jim's name is on okay Intolible Cruelty

but he developed that originally it was his forever he was it was on the cards he was like I'm gonna do this with the Coens and then Ron Howard was gonna make

Intolible Cruelty for years right and then eventually the Coen Brothers circled back to it I love that movie. I do too. I think it's very underrated.

I think it's hugely underrated. Very underrated. And then in 2004 he's got Friday Night Lights which he's really great in and nobody thinks about the movie anymore. And that created a fucking

movement. Yeah. And then then it's like what happened? And then it's over. So what happens? What's the one?

I don't really know. It's like the Bad News Bears remake. Right. He tries to tell Alamo movie. Which you're following. You're doing Richard Linklater after School of Rock. Yeah. And you're doing, you know, Butter Maker part.

You're doing Bad Santa. You're everyone's favorite commodity. Everything on paper should have worked. Right. Except the Bad News Bears is an amazing movie. The first one. He does a lot of Bad Santa-y movies, like School for Scoundrel, Mr. Woodcock. A lot of these kind of like, ain't I a stinker?

Todd Phillips' School for Scoundrels, right? Yes lot of these kind of like ain't i a school for scoundrels yes yeah he's he's like finally got this quantified here's what your leading man movie persona is you're the asshole right and he sort of says in interviews like i don't know people like it they're paying me money to do it like he was i feel like he got sick of it because he's he's kind of a certain point he musical, right? He started leaning into his band. And then he was on that Jomaine Comanche show in Toronto. Yeah, that's right. I mean, that's where he was like, hey, I want to ask you about your band. And he got real hostile.

No, he wanted to ask about acting. He was like, I'm here to talk about his band. Right, right. And he wanted to talk about acting. And he turned on him. Even fucking wilder than that. What was it? That interview is one of the best films of the 2000s.

It is incredible. And it's also one of the best films of the 2000s. It is incredible. And it's also one of those things very similar to the interview. Are you talking about the insult he delivered to Canadian people on that? There's so many things. Where he called them mashed potatoes without the gravy. Yes. Just a real deep fried insult. He said Canadian people are like mashed potatoes without the gravy.

It's incredible. Every piece of that is so beautifully written as it were uh there's there's the interview uh years later where george lucas goes on charlie rose after the disney deal and he describes disney's as white slavers who sold his baby yeah and uh my buddy conor aliff the host of the george lucas talk show always makes the joke that somehow somehow within five years of that interview george lucas is the least problematic of the George Lucas talk show always makes the joke that somehow, somehow within five years of that interview, George Lucas is the least problematic of the two people in that room.

Right? That Charlie Rose looks worse. And it's the same thing with Gene Gomeshi, right? Right, right, right. Where like horrible allegations come out about him five years later. At the time, everyone was like, Billy Bob Thornton, what an asshole.

And now Billy Bob Thornton kind of comes off well in that interview. But it was in the introduction, he's outlining like, the band's called the called the box tops they release six albums a year it's one of those like wildly prolific bands right and he goes like the four members of the band or this this this and that you might recognize their drummer from his day career as a movie actor anyway here are the box tops and Billy Bob Thornton was incensed that in the introduction of that knowledge, there were no questions about acting. And he's sitting there silently

every time he asks him a question, he's monosyllabic then at some point he starts asking about musical influences and he goes off into like, when I was a kid I read famous monsters of Filmland magazine Forrest J. Ackerman and I would get models and paint

them. And then he'd be like okay so um on your second album and he kept asking questions there was a contest to design your own monster makeup and he keeps doing this and shankabeshi is like i'm sorry i don't think i see the connection here and he was like well if you want to interview me as if this is a fucking hobby i'll tell you about my other hobbies that's genius right he does it six times before he connects the dots and he was like you were explicitly told not to mention and he was like i was told not to ask questions about it i just thought the context was necessary and and then he starts attacking the entire nation of canada how long does it last

like at 45 minutes it's, yeah. It's incredible. I remember watching it when it happened because it was a buzzy. Everyone's like, did you fucking see Billy Bob? And it is so cringe and awkward as you're watching. Right, it's tough to watch something like that. And I'm no fan of the other guy. Yes. Right. No idea who this guy is, really.

But it's tough to root for billy bob because it's like i mean you are an actor bro absolutely like he seems like maybe a bit of a tough customer knows you as an actor and the guy didn't even like he was just like you might recognize him as actor anyway all he said was not gonna ask it wasn't like hey man what is kate blanchett oh my god but then the other thing is you watch this video and you're like, this is an incredible Billy Bob Thornton performance. Right.

Like if this happened in a Coen Brothers movie, you'd be like, he's fucking terrible as hell. He's not being a regular arsehole. He's right. He's really, he's like, all right,

I'm going to be an asshole. Right. I do feel like the All the Pretty Horses thing or maybe the Angelina thing kind of broke him. I think both on that front. I don't know about all the pretty horses, because at the end of the day, you're making a Miramax movie.

Yeah. You can't be surprised. Right, it got fucked with. Yeah, if somebody comes in and takes it away and tries to edit it, especially if you've got a major movie star in it, and it's expensive. It's one of those classic things.

But I'm not saying everyone says, oh, his cut was so good. It doesn't exist. You can't find it. His cut, the first cut of the movie was brilliant. He's going, everything that happened after that was really crap. Maybe the Angelina thing. The crazy press of that. Because that relationship,

like, you know, think of any like, what's her, the girl who was in the Transformers movies. Megan Fox. And she's dating somebody. Machine Gun Kelly. I was going to say,

we all know that. I don't know their names, but we all know that they are together and stuff like that. And we keep reading stories about what are the weird things they do as a couple. Yeah, it's become weird.

Billy Bob and Angelina were that. They were that at that time. They're on the red carpet and the paps are like, do something weird! And she, I think they both wore vials of each other

which now in retrospect like in the time you were like oh my god that's so out there but now it's like who cares yeah it's like

what you got a little Theranos thing around right on good for you you know those don't work right I don't know if you saw that it is funny

I mean the other thing that happens to Billy Bob is like, right, he starts focusing a lot on his music. He still does movies, but you look and pretty much everything from like 2012 on is not good. He doesn't do a lot of movies. Yeah. He's been doing that show on Amazon. That's the thing.

He moves to TV faster than a lot of guys. Yeah, he did that Amazon show. So he does that first season of Fargo. Right. And he's quite good on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot the first season. But when that was announced, it was like, why is Billy Bob Thornton doing a TV show? And why is he doing Fargo and he's quiet. He's really good on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot the first But when that was announced it was like

why is Billy Bob Thornton doing a TV show? And why is he doing Fargo? Right. Like he worked with the Coen brothers. Why is he doing this

TV show? Yeah, that was the weird. Five years away from everyone doing any show like that, you know? Maybe he's been

chasing the material and the material moved to streaming. Yeah, and four quiet seasons of Goliath. That show has been on the air since 2016. That's my wife to this day is just like, I will rewatch it with you.

You know, we have a thing where it's like, why don't you start watching? I'm not going to watch it now and stuff. She's like, I will totally rewatch it with you. He is so wonderful in this. So apparently he's doing strong work in Goliath. But as said, very quiet. Very quiet. Talks about it.

No. I mean, but that's an Amazon show, right? Yeah. What is the biggest Amazon show? The Boys. The Boys. The Boys is pretty big. That's true.

And that has punched through the mainstream. But you're right that there's only a couple that people talk about. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're kind of like Apple to that. You know, Transparent had a moment. What was his name again? Ted Lasso.

I was going to say Blasso. I was like Teddy Blasso. Blasso. Teddy Blasso. Freddie Blasso. Ted Lasso. But other than that. Yes.

So far the brand looks not. My entire experience working on the tick was constantly feeling the pressure of them being like we need one of these things to punch through. That was Amazon?

That was Amazon. That was Amazon. That was Amazon. And it was like, we have some things that critics like, and win awards, and no one watches them. That's right, they have Maisel. That was their big... That was their Ramy winner. Until the boys, that was the one that was the billboards.

But it was always like, we have respectability. We want the thing that the culture actually cares about. Right. All right, well, back to Simple Plan. Back to Simple Plan. So Scott Rudin somehow takes over this movie. Jeff Bezos had a Simple Plan. He had a very simple plan.

He just didn't plan out. We were on Billy Bob. We were, yeah. Did Rudin, I don't know. At some point, Rudin brings on John Borman. And I'm trying to wonder. So wait, is Rudin a producer on this movie? He's not, but I guess he was briefly in charge of it.

And he was at Paramount at that time. And there's no way on earth that a book movie doesn't have his fingerprints on it somewhere. So I suspect he was involved earlier during the Mike Nichols era probably. And then when Jim got involved, he probably wanted it free of scum. There's the Barry Diller thing. The Barry Diller thing? I think it was set up at a... I'm forgetting what company it was, but it was set up at a

production company through the original Mike Nichols set up, and then Diller bought that company and was like, I don't want to fucking make this. Savoy, I think it's called. Savoy. Fire sale. Selling off all the property. And that's when Paramount buys it as a package. Did they have the buffalo as their... Yes, I think so.

As their logo? I'm going to look it up for you. Savoy Pictures, like one or three buffaloes or something? Yes, three buffaloes with kind of a blind. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool. All right, so yeah. So Rudin picks it up. He hires John Borman, who's kind of in the downswing of his career.

To direct? To direct. They cast Paxton and Thornton. Now, I did read an interview with Paxton. So wait, before Raimi comes on, Borman was going to direct? To direct. They cast Paxton and Thornton. Now, I did read an interview with Paxton. So wait, before Raimi comes on, Borman was going to direct? Yes. Briefly. John Borman of Mosquito Coast and-

Deliverance, right? Yeah. Yeah. Hope and Glory. Excalibur? Excalibur, exactly. Yeah, not Mosquito Coast. Who did Mosquito Coast?

Oh, that was- Peter Weir? Peter Weir. Yes. My bad, my bad. I did read some interview where- Exorcist 2, though. That's poor.

Paxton said that he and Billy Bob had been attached to one of the earlier versions. I'm wondering if it was a Jim Jacks thing, but that at some point someone was like, you know who would be perfect as the two brothers? Paxton and Billy Bob. They really wanted to do it. It went away. It went through a couple more directors. And then Borman is the one who finally hires them on. He doesn't cast Bridget Fonda, but Borman signs on the two of them.

I could see Jax pulling for him, too. They're both Tombstone alumnus who he spent a great deal of time with, both Bill Paxton and Billy Bob. No, I was just going to say very quickly. Is this where Bridget Fonda meets Danny Elfman? Yes. On this movie? Yes. And they get married.

And she kind of retires from acting. She's like, I love that score so much. That haunting piano. Yeah. I'd like to fuck the score. I'd settle for fucking

the man who wrote it. I will be with the man who wrote the score. That brilliant man. She's wonderful in the movie. Oh, she's incredible. And does so much of the heavy lifting

and gets no credit absolutely but she's Lady Macbeth she's Iago she's it's a tough role oh it's a and she's fantastic

she is I was gonna say and I'm sorry because I know you're burning up to say the thing Paxton and Billy Bob have the thing

where they're also like filmmakers that's true they have that Bruce Campbell thing where it's like these guys love film they're not just actors that's true they have that bruce campbell thing where it's like these guys love paxton frailty actors right but wait yeah paxton directed frailty you're right i forgot but also he was like a corman guy like he met cameron i think he was

a set dresser for corman movies that's how i met him for a while we're gonna talk about that bruce campbell sort of like i want to be helping to make the pictures i'm not just the handsome guy at the center wow i. I didn't know that. The crucial thing, and it is funny to think about, is Thornton's attached to this project, but then post-Sling Blade, he is so hot that they're like, we have to make this movie right now because he's fucking booked, booked, booked. So if we're going to delay this shit again, he's not going to be in it. So it's Thornton's busy schedule.

All of a sudden, this guy who is like a total journeyman a couple years before nobody even heard of except billy wilder at a catering event so that's ramey had been in the mix i think when savoy had the rights right you know but when they're in rush mode rudin basically says like we need to go right now you're actually not my top choice but like but like whatever and then somehow rudin disappears but ramey stays on and they go and borman but was far enough along that he was doing location scouting and the movie was such a moving train that when ramey comes on he's like i just trust the locations are right let's work on new things yeah like he was wow he was inheriting of a moving train and that's that's got to be jim it has to And that's got to be Jim.

It has to be. That's got to be Jim going like, do me a solid. And I'll win you an award. Right. I mean, and it should have. I guess it's a tough year. It's the... Yeah, what else was up that year?

It's the Saving Private Ryan, Shakespeare in Love year. Like those two go into war. You know, Billy Bob loses toames coburn in affliction which is a good performance but it is also best supporting yeah it is also kind of a career award for that was more like hey the favorite that year had been ed harris ed harris for the truman show which is like okay he's making a face kevin's making a kevin's making a face look i love me some ed harris although recently i heard from somebody who worked on an ed harris movie that Which is like, okay, he's making a face. Kevin's making a face. Kevin's making a face. Look, I love me some Ed Harris. Although recently I heard from somebody who worked on an Ed Harris movie that he was a yeller.

I have heard that he is a terrifying person. I interviewed him once. A friend of mine was just like, I was like, oh, how's he? Because I've always loved Harris. He's like, he yells. That's what I've heard. He yells at famous people. And I was like, well, that's the kind of yelling that people talk about. You've got to be really confident in what you're yelling about if you're going to yell at a fucking famous people. And I was like, that's the kind of yelling that people talk about.

You gotta be really confident in what you're yelling about if you're gonna yell at a fucking famous person. Ed Harris had won the Golden. He was picking up the precursors and I guess it was sort of a, it's Ed Harris.

He's never won. Apollo 13. It's time. I mean, give it to him for fucking Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross. I mean, Ed Harris is good in a lot of movies.

But re-watching this, I did have the thought, how the fuck did Billy Bob not win? It is crazy that Thornton doesn't win. But he had just won an Oscar. No, but not for acting. I know, I know, I know. It just feels like it's the kind of anointment they would have wanted to give him

at a time where he had all the heat momentum and it's just an unreal performance. It's unparalleled. I challenge you to find a performance that's so not a performance. Yeah. This guy is fucking living, breathing flesh, the character of Jacob. And he's like doing a mild physical transformation. Like he's changing his look.

He's got this stammer. Like it's not like he's making choices. And it's a character that on paper you could make a real meal out of. And he is underplaying everything so much where you just buy him as a real guy. That might be the other reason he doesn't win. He almost doesn't have the sort of crazy clit. He doesn't lean into it. Yeah, that people will be like, well, fuck, actually, he's got to take it.

Ben's burning up with a take here. The look in this movie. It is special. movie it is it is so like it is like basically every work from home like graphic designer living in bushwick wearing car hearts with double knee like pants he's become the hippest guy in the world it's kind of hilarious how he's coded as being kind of like bumbling and like like you know very out of touch out of time and like currently that is like the hottest thing right now. Now he's Ed Sheeran. Yes.

Essentially, yeah. Yes. So this guy now dates Julia Fox, you know? You walk into a party and you're like, I can't blame her. That guy looks cool. But to be fair, you're in the world of the movie. Yeah. Who would you rather hang out with?

Bill Paxton or fucking,acob or hank it hands down jacob he's a nice guy he's not judgy yeah he's loves his dog paxton's wound so tight i don't want to hang out with that guy it's kind of the thing that's most impressive about this movie to me is that establishes him as like well this is obviously your normal guy at the center of the film right these two guys are fuck-ups you got an idiot and a sort of rage cage and here's the guy who's got the level sort of pragmatic view of everything he's the smart guy he's the one who's like all right gentlemen let's all take a second you know that's right yeah right and jacob's like a a figure of sympathy right right and then as the movie goes on you're like he's got a lot of

fucking unresolved issues here and jacob is so pure in his understanding of everything and a lot of fucking unresolved issues here. And Jacob is so pure in his understanding of everything and a lot smarter than he appears to be. He knows things that Paxton can't confront. Hank is just wearing blinders. When he finds out that his father killed himself, he's like, what? Maybe the best scene in the movie. I don't know. Well, there's a lot of good scenes in this

movie. They were supposed to shoot in Minnesota. Some El Nino shit meant that there was no snow on the ground. So they were like completely fucked. Also happened

when we were making Mallrats in 95, the Coen brothers were making Fargo. Right. And they had no snow, And they had to chase snow all over Minnesota.

They left Minnesota and went over to fucking Dakota or whatever when we were getting the snow reports from their set all the time because Jim Jacks was very tight with the Colin brothers.

At least he claimed, as he told you. You know, when they made Intolerable Cruelty, I was like, he did know those fucking guys. They're buddies. This is my favorite poignant Sam Raimi story. James Jacks, you, um, you know, wanted, he wanted to make a hit so fucking bad.

You know, he thought Mallrats was going to make a hundred million bucks. He was wrong. He thought Days of View was going to make a hundred million bucks. He was fucking wrong. Um, he had, they,

they, they lasted. Yeah. He was right about what they were. He was just couldn't get the box office right, but he wanted like a fucking legit hit. Cause he knew that would open doors and make life easier and stuff and he eventually got those hits with the mummy he made the series mummy movies and jim and finally got to the you know top of the mountain

where he wanted to be and stuff um he like for the years that we knew him he was always trying to make shit like the jackal, which eventually got made. Projects that would come to life after the mummy. He had an easier time doing things. He was doing a treadmill one day, and his assistant went out to get him his breakfast and came home, and the treadmill was running, and Jim was not. He was on the floor. He had a mass fire attack. Fucking died. So they have a funeral for this guy of course and i think jim had like a catholic background if i remember correctly um because he liked dogma an awful lot said he understood it

so there's gonna be a you know a funeral service at that church in Beverly Hills. It's a Catholic church that's on the Strip. Okay. I'm driving to it. I try to get some people to go with me. Call up Jason Mewes. I was like, Jim passed away, man. We're going to go to his funeral?

He's like, oh, no. I'm busy. Ask Scott. I was like, you want to go? He's like oh no i'm busy ask scott i was like you want to go and he's like nah i'm doing some stuff and whatnot so i was driving over and i was like man this like just as i felt like you know those he would talk about all those people and why didn't they ever reach back like why how come you know he thought so fondly of them and not vice versa and like that and i was driving over and i was working myself up into this like bitter frenzy where i'm like it's fucking tuesday at noon in hollywood nobody's gonna be in this church like i'm gonna be the only one there and like maybe his brother and

that fucking coffin and all those people they put on the fucking path can't be bothered to fucking you know be there for him and shit so i get to the church i park i walk into the back of the church and i stand in the back of the church because there's not a fucking seat available and the whole ride i was over driving over there going like all these fucking people man like fucking you know he's always talking about fucking sam ramey who do i see mid fucking aisle like halfway up right on the aisle, Sam Raimi dressed and sitting there. It was beautiful to see the man get his flowers. Granted, he was passed, but it seemed to indicate that he was right.

All the things he ever said, he was tight with these folks and you know they had life is such that you move on to other things like there are people you work very closely with on a movie so it's like going to camp and you're like we're never gonna be apart we'll see you next summer fucking like we built strong bonds and then 10 years 15 years go by and you don't see a motherfucker and stuff so what i misconstrued as people being like well they lost interest in jim and moved fucking on they were just doing their thing until they could circle back and you know granted i ain't taking anything away from the people that worked with them but like you know i'm sure it was easier for them all to say yes after the mummies movies you know when when he was on a roll and stuff like that but this dude was

like such a fucking champion for everybody and at the end of the day they came out for him we go to the there's a repass or whatever the fuck you know where you get together and eat afterwards that motherfucker was great we go to craig's because he used to go to dantana's all the time apparently the shrimp parm is named after him. Named after Jim Jacks. Cool. And Craig's. He knew, I guess Craig was, I don't know much about the restaurant business in LA, but apparently the guy who started Craig's was a guy who worked at Dantana's forever.

Jim ate there all the time. Guy left Craig and started Craig's or whatever the fuck. And so Jim went over there. And so he would apparently have a fucking lunch or dinner. It was so fucked up that we go to the repass. Everyone's sitting around. It's like a Viking funeral. We're all telling stories about Jim, you know, and Sean Dan was like, Kevin, talk about Jim.

And I was like, well, anybody in this room knows that Jim had his own catchphrase. Same way that Sam Raimi was like, hey, buddy, knows that jim had his own catchphrase um same way that sam ramey was like hey buddy buddy come on buddy oh buddy jim jacks would say like you know to punctuate any joke he had so he'd be like uh you know billy bob he's now he looks like ed sheeran you know like you know like you know like you, and it was your cue to like, like laugh, clap, please, or whatever that fucking politician said. So he would do it all the time. Like it was a, it was almost like a nervous punctuation. I would go so far as to say like a Tourette's condition, but I've gotten noted for doing

similar things on a podcast. Like people listen to you for hours and they're like, why is every sentence with that same fucking thing? And it wasn't like Bart Simpson's like, you know, fucking eat my shorts. It wasn't a catchphrase. I don't know that he was conscious of it. It was like a tick. It was a tick. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Me and Mosier one day saw him do it for a minute and 12 seconds straight. Without breathing. It was the fucking craziest thing. He said something that made him laugh so hard. He goes, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know. He wound down. Right. And sort of decelerates.

And then got to the floor and was like, you know. Like, you know. And then went for a second fucking round. And it was unbelievable. So I tell that story and everyone's fucking laughing and shit like that. And I said, but be honest with you. As I was driving over to the funeral and I told him the story that I told you guys, I was a little bitter because I thought the place would be fucking empty and shit like that and i said but be honest with you as i was driving over to the funeral and i told him the story i told you guys i was a little bitter because i thought place would be fucking empty and shit i was like this was a guy who we'd go out to dinner with him

all the time he would tell us stories about these great filmmakers like sam ramey and stuff like that and uh when i was driving over i was like is sam ramey even gonna be there and i was like and sam was in the room like looking at me and i was like sam when i walked into the church and saw you there that you know i'm an old catholic and i let it all slip away but that really did make me feel like there could be a god like the fact that you showed up for the man like really meant the world to me and i know it ain't about me but i know if it meant the world to me bro jim would have been fucking in tears like to know that you were a true friend not just a a work buddy not just somebody who's transactional in his life and stuff so uh you know i said my piece and made people happy and i was like i've done i've done good here today and i'm gonna

leave this fucking wake and stuff like that and i I'm almost at the door. I almost get out clean. And then a filmmaker stops me, uh, whose name I don't know, younger cat. And he goes, Hey man, I'm this cat.

I said, how are you? And, uh, he goes, um, I just wanted to tell you, like you were talking about how you,

you and Scott would go out with Jim and he would tell you stories about Sam Ramey and stuff like that. And the Coen brothers, I told him the Billy Bob and the Coens thing. And he goes, well, like he did that with us. He's like, me and my friends, like we did the same thing with Jim. We just did it like at Craig's.

We would come here every Thursday night and sit around and talk about movies and bullshit. And he would tell stories, war stories about making movies and stuff. I was like, that's awesome. That's what he used to do with us. And then the guy fucking devastates me because he goes, the only difference is all the stories were about you. Right. You became.

I've fucking leveled me right then and there, man. Like I was, and then I thought about the judgment that i would cast on the other filmmakers like oh they never reach back you're worried that you come off that way i didn't reach back yeah like i remember being on the set of dogma and there we are working with two of the biggest movie stars on the planet at the moment kind of your blank check one of which he let be in mall rats even though he didn't want him. Yeah. Like he was like, don't hire the Affleck guy.

He's cursed. He's got a potty mouth. He's like, there are too many curses in this script already. He's like, I remember him on Days of Confused. He raised the fuck count

of that movie. And so. And he'll be a nightmare on your commentary. Yes. He'll take it over. He'll be so much funnier than you. So Jim,

you know, was, when I was like, Jim, Ben is like the best guy for the role, you know, was when we, when I was like, Jim, Ben is like the best guy for the role. Like he just seems like the guy. He was like, Oh fuck.

All right. But you know, it sit there and chit chat with, with Ben throughout production. Ben would tease him all the time and stuff. Cause they had like days confused stories to talk about. And like Ben would just flat out be like, Kevin,

don't listen to this man. He told Rick Linklater the same things. Look what happened at days of confused. Do your own thing. Like right in front of Jim, he'd be like, shut don't listen to this man he told rick linklater the same things look what happened at days of confused do your own thing like right in front of jimmy be like shut up shut up ben um he came to the dogma set there we are shooting fucking ben and matt um right before they go off to win the oscar right we were shooting at the airport this this year this very year they left from the airport where we were shooting them in the airport to go receive their house why jim rolls up unannounced hey i just happen to be in town and you know he knows me he knows scott he knows ben very well um jason muse and you know i didn't facilitate.

I wasn't like, hey. This is Jim. Well, they knew each other, but I wasn't like, why don't you guys take some time to talk? Sure. Ben was like, you know, like, he wants me to do a movie that I don't want to do. And I was like, oh. And, you know, it was weird to suddenly. But you feel bad that you weren't kind of like, come on, Ben.

Like, he was there for us, especially because I was so judgy about like, Oh, he talks about all these filmmakers. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure.

Right. I literally became the film. I realized like in that moment when I'm a fucker, talk to me and said, all that we talked about was you. Like, I realized like I became that fucking guy that I judged. Like I would pass Jimim jacks house um like i moved to california in 2002 and you know we'd hung out with jim 95 we fucking lived

in his house we didn't go stay in a hotel when we made mall rats like in pre-production me and scott stayed at jack's house and then during post-production we stayed at jim jacks's house and stuff we were saving money rather than stay at the universal sheridan but also like jim at a home theater he would take us to like dave's laser and buy a fucking laser disc he bought every laser disc came out this is a guy who taught us shit important shit that nobody like you know you rarely see meet an elder statesman in the business tells you how to conduct yourself right and this guy would talk about we'd go to blazer dave's laser he buy literally every every laser disc every and then later on every dvd and you'd be like jim why are you buying joanna man you're never gonna watch

this and in fact i know you have a copy at home so this is the second buy and you know you never blast him about that because you could pick through and he'd let you have the extras of his laser disc. I said, Jim, why are you buying this? You're never gonna watch it. And he goes, uh, my whole life, I wanted to be in the movie business. And now the movie business pays my salary. Everything that I buy in this world,

that money comes from the movie business. I think I have to put my money back into this business. I have to support the business that supports me. He's going, so I'm buying all these filmmakers' films, and part of it is selfish because I'm looking for the next thing, but I hope to God they're buying my movies as well. He's like, that's how this thing works. What's so funny about this, I mean, you know,

we do every movie when we pick a director, right? And we end up spending so much time thinking about these people people not just watching their films in order and spending months chronologically doing all the research and reading these interviews and they're collaborators and all this sort of stuff and i feel like very often we do have those questions where we're like why didn't they ever work together ever again you know someone has a fruitful collaboration and like we were just saying like why isn't russell crowe in spy 3 why didn't he play Venom? Why was there never another Bruce vehicle after Army of Darkness? He would give Bruce small roles, but why did he never use the clout to make another Bruce vehicle? You know, why didn't the Coen brothers and Raimi ever write together again?

Especially when the Coen brothers are coming off of Fargo and Raimi's in sort of like a downslope and all these sorts of things. But careers do have these weird ebbs and flows. Honestly, like, I mean, I'm sure there's some... And it's so hard to make a fucking movie. There are some instances where it's personal animus, where most of them just didn't get along. I'm not working on that guy again. But often you hear those. It does, I feel like, seep out when there's a falling out.

The thing I just told you about the eight people who almost made this movie, it's like this stuff is so alchemical where it's so difficult for even a successful movie that people want to make to actually get made. It is. Especially audience looks at it like come on so much crap gets made and it's like you'd be shocked like for everyone that crap had to fucking go through to actually get made and the wildest thing to me is that like we've we have been missing david knight the piece of how does raimi become the choice i understand it was a last minute thing. It was a flyer or whatever,

but Jim Jax is clearly the missing piece here. Feels like it. I mean, I can't say for sure, but based on those cards, he's the one who's like, come on, Sam's a good choice.

Cause Rudin told Sam, like you are not my first choice. Like, which makes sense because one, Scott Rudin seems like a real rude guy. The only time he's ever been that rude to anybody. I know, it seems so un real rude guy. The only time he's ever been that rude to anybody. I know. It seems so uncharacteristic.

But two, this is not the moment where everyone is like, Sam Raimi's about to win an Oscar. No. You know, this is a bit of a murky time for him. And you saying this is such a sort of left field turn. This is such a different thing in his body of work. I'd seen this movie once before. I loved it, but I'd only seen it one time. And then I started rewatching it last night. And there was something that finally clicked for me. work i'd seen this movie once before i loved it but i'd only seen it one time and then i i started

re-watching it last night and there was something that finally clicked for me because i'd always been like what a weird sort of like curve you know this off-ramp his career takes into these three sort of prestige studio dramas before he comes all the way back around this gift and what's for love of the game the baseball game kevin costner baseball yeah and then with a gun to my head i probably would not have remembered was sam ring that's the i would have been like that feels like a nancy myers movie right right i don't know like incredibly bizarre and no shade on nancy myers because i don't want to be dragged on twitter going like oh this is him coming for nancy myers she just makes a very specific kind of glossy studio movie which that feels more like

it's the only way to watch that movie i've never watched i hate fucking baseball but i do love very specific kind of glossy studio movie, which that feels more like. Absolutely. No, no, it is. I'm now going to watch that movie. I've never watched it. I hate fucking baseball, but I do love baseball movies. Baseball movies are good. They are. It's the only way me I've never seen,

and I am like, I'm interested to see, like, is there something to this? Is there something for you guys? Yeah, because it's the next. It's the future. Yeah, it's the next one. It's the next one after this.

This is what he did. He did that. He does this, for the love of the game, the next year, and the gift the year after that. It's three movies, 98, 99, 2000. It's what he did. He did that. He does this, For the Love of the Game the next year, and The Gift the year after that. It's three movies, 98, 99, 2000.

It's like a perfect trilogy of his adult Spider-Man. Of him swinging for an Oscar. Oscar drama movies. And you know what? I'm going to take a guess here. Based on my career, based on careers of others,

people I've spoken to. That is an external, I'm not going to say pressure say pressure but influence he has talked about i don't think sam ramey is like i want to win an oscar i think it's a bunch of people going you're grown up now yeah you've done enough with the shenanigans now it's your time i think there's an additional thing which is he came up with the coen brothers they were all making kind of goofball sort of like genre lark movies running around the cameras literally right and then they have fargo right fargo which is their recovery film after hud sucker is their first big flop which is the one they write with ramey yeah and the only other hud sucker with ramey yes oh buddy yeah he put himself in the fucking put himself in the fucking

movie so i think like those guys suddenly become legitimate. They're serious filmmakers now. And people still view Raimi as like this sort of like genre obsessed kid, you know? And the Hudsucker of it all, you can't discount too. Because having been involved in a movie that did not succeed. Yeah. Or worth. Yeah, they cost a lot of money and you're disappointed.

But what happens is it's just like if you know your bible stories is just like when jesus gets arrested yeah all the apostles like huh who jesus what i don't know that guy never met him the cock's crowing somewhere like nobody knows each other up until the moment the movie comes out you're like we're bonded for life motherfucker we made this thing together and when the returns come in it's it's not it's no judgment against anybody but this is a very unique phenomenon that i've noticed time and time again in my career everyone scatters you just want to go as far away from the bomb as possible and you need to manage your career that's what a lot of this feels like yeah no i think that's absolutely career management and even the choices that sam seems to make in this corridor yeah well which i'm glad he directs

this movie absolutely because i love this movie but it seems more like career maintenance than a guy going like i need to tell this story it does and if you think like dark there's nothing wrong with that by the way no it's a good movie that did pretty well But nonetheless, I do feel like mostly he's still the evil dead guy. Yes. And it's just kind of like, you know, quick and the dead doesn't really work. It's like, are you just the evil dead guy? Right? Like, the more movies you make that don't really work.

So he wants to show, like, I don't need to move the camera to tell a story. It's a challenge. I can tell a very subtle story. I think he's comparing himself to the Coens, right? And he's like, they had an evolutionary leap in how they're perceived. I have not had that leap. People still view me as a run-around

gonzo kid guy, right? On top of that, none of those movies are becoming blockbusters. Darkman, respectable hit. Army of Darkness does okay. But it's not like I've escalated to being,

you know, I haven't had a Gremlins, I haven't had a Jaws. Hold on. I'm just going to put a pause right there i cannot believe your go-to for successful blockbuster movies is gremlins i'm thinking joe which i love joe dante is a similar like kinetic movie nerd all right fair enough loves cartoons and it has the movie that like crosses over i see right and it's like you found a way to get into the mainstream culture i don't think he's had that and then he talks I see. but like why does Jim Jacks so early on go this is a Raimi project and I always thought

it was incongruous in his career but something about this rewatch clicked it for me and especially the opening shot of the crow right he keeps these crows

circling around the whole movie and I think he does a very good job of not overdoing it but it is sort of I do think this movie is kind of biblical it's this morality tale

huge morality tale right and the crows are almost like... They're Midwestern as well. Absolutely. I mean, not just its setting, but like the morals involved, which is exciting. If you set this movie in the East Coast or fucking in Los Angeles, everyone's a shithole from the start. But you get to watch Bridget Fonda go from the voice of reason...

Good people disintegrate. To the voice of reason good people disintegrate to the voice of greed right and you compare it to fargo where fargo is a movie that is almost supernatural and people who are just inherently good and inherently bad right and they spiral so much so that by the end of the movie our main character is fucking baffled yes at how they've arrived i don't even understand with this guy behind right she's so, she cannot even fathom it. Whereas William H. Macy is always operating on this level. And this is a movie of people who make small decisions that slowly disintegrate.

They take the bite of the apple and they never recover. And watching it this time, it clicked for me. Nice metaphor. Thank you. The Crow is sort of like his visualization of the way the camera, the crazy mccann and evil dead is the evil right when you have the crazy moving through the woods thing you're like there's just evil here and once the evil enters the house this guy's fucked and he's never gonna recover he just goes further and further into chaos and his life spirals out of control and this movie's a similar thing where the second they open that fucking bag and they have seen the money,

the idea of the money exists, everyone's brain breaks. There's just an evil that is absorbed into the world. What were you going to say, Ben? I love the term you used before we started recording, David, which is this is a don't do it movie.

Don't do it movie. And that idea, I didn't make the connection. This is the first time I've ever seen this movie. But you're right. This is almost like kind of a weird genre of just storytelling in general. Don't read the book.

Don't play the tape. Which, right. Name another example. Evil Dead. Evil Dead 2. Don't read the book. It weirdly fits into the Evil Dead thing of like don't let the thing out. I mean, look, my wife is very much a rule follower.

I was like, well, come on, what would you do? You know, because you're watching. A school teacher. A literal school teacher. That was, by the way, part of the fun of this movie when it came out was, and still today, is like, what would you do? Yeah. And I was like, I was, she was like, I would just call the cops or do nothing.

I would just not do it. You know, which I was like, that is correct. That is absolutely. I was like, you're not lying to me. That's definitely what you do. And I was like, I would take the money and it would go wrong for me. Yeah. I don't think I'm not like, I would take the money because I know

what to do. You know, yeah, you mix the, you know, you check your cereal. No, I would take the money and it would fucking, maybe I'm not suffocating people in snow drifts day two, but it would go wrong. It would 100% go wrong. It's a quick slide for Bill Pa bill pack it's it's a sharp like it begins with the i guess the dude on the snowmobile right yes yeah that's the that's

jacob's fault jacob kind of it is his fault and strikes the dude it is his and then bill paxton does the calculation like there's only one thing i can do. And there's a, it's a wonderful performance beat. And Bill Paxton, a great actor. Would you take the money, Grant? I wouldn't. I just want to quickly,

talk about Paxton a second. But that performance beat where he goes, where he has to decide to, he's like, call the cops. Your brother hit me. And he has to fucking decide. Not huge.

There's no big camera move. Like we're coming around him to show a different perspective. They just hold on him and you watch it all go across the stage. His reactions. He's got like four or five

silent reaction moments in this movie that are profound. It's an underrated performance. Absolutely. I would not take the money because my anxiety is so overwhelming

and I was talking about this as I was watching it. You don't like money. Money freaks me out. Money kind of freaks you out. It freaks me out. But also like the Paxton, how quickly he has to go into, like, here's the move. Here's the branching tree of the story.

Right. We say this and this and that, and then constantly having to adjust. I'm like, too much to maintain. Don't want to do it. No money is worth. Too many steps ahead. Right. Having to keep all these lies in head.

Not to put him on blast, but Ben did text us this morning. Can I just read this, Ben? Yeah, sure. If I found that money, I'd do everything right and the story would end with me owning an island. Ben has supreme confidence

that he would nail this situation. I stand by that. Where are you getting an island for $4.4 million? Yeah, I don't know if you're getting an island. It could be a small island.

You gotta split it up in real small. Maybe it's on a lake. It doesn't have to be on the ocean. Good point, good point. Oh, that's a fair point. Lake Island.

Lake Island. Lake Island. They can get you on a Lake Island, though. You're not in international waters. We have you surrounded. Lake Island. That's a good point. What do you think, in a movie full of unintentionally sinister

efforts, what do you think is the most sinister thing that happens in the movie? Do you have an answer? I do. I have one that I prefer. I mean... Because mind you,

people are killed. Yeah, people are killed. Yeah. But I don't think it's a death. I think it's the guy, that old guy overpaying for his feedback. I think that's where... That's the crux of the story.

You're trying to tell this guy they're five weeks and a month? That's fucked up. It's five Mondays. I got to answer the phone. I think it's Bridget Fonda telling him what life is going to be like when they get rid of the money. That scene. Where she like, first it's him, it's Jacob, it's the baby. And then she's like what about me

and then you get to the heart of the matter plastered on smile and we go out to dinner only for special holidays and i think about what i'm ordering she's like and i can't order appetizers it's kind of a they predict the end of the tube moment they tell you the fucking ending of the movie and when she's putting those books back oh it's so fucking haunting how do you how does that relationship look at her of course that's so fucking haunting. How do you look at her? Of course. How do you live in that relationship for the rest of your life? Knowing that, like, you think I fucked up by burning this thing.

It's what they reveal about themselves and what they reveal about themselves to each other that there's no going back from. And like the book had a darker ending. Well, because Jacob dies a lot. Jacob dies a lot earlier in the book. Yes. I believe. I'm glad they didn't do that because I think it's the height of fucking tragedy. It feels like a Shakespearean tragedy.

Absolutely. And that moment when he's like, just do it. I don't want to be here anymore. And he's making him, he's like, I'm going to do it or you're going to do it. And if I do it, you're fucked. him he's like i'm gonna do it or you're gonna do it if i do it you're fucked right it is it's it's if the genre is the don't do it movie yeah that is yet another like don't do it moment right fucking does it i know i think the book is also maybe more explicitly violent like i think yeah this the the movie tones that down in terms of it's more like it's a suffocation something like

that but that's wise again to me because if you're putting like gory violence on screen the audience kind of can't get over it especially for ramey he's done so much gore he has to know like i don't want to fucking splatter the well he does that well i mean he does it long before chris nolan but the chris nolan you know uh fucking joker stabbing and cutting everybody thing where it's like just cut away or it's just a loud fucking noise. Exactly. Right. You don't see a thing.

You're like, I'm freaked out. Right. Exactly. You don't see Billy Bob take the bullet. No, no. Um, you know, the most visual fucking death is, is, uh, Becky and Baker, but that's even, it takes place in total shadow. Let's give it, what's his name? Brent Briscoe. Brent Briscoe?

Brent Briscoe. So fucking good. Amazing. Passed away a couple years ago. One of those guys. Incredible character actor. He did recently die and just in like 40 million movies.

Yeah. And you're always like, you know, like. And this was his crowning achievement though. This is the perfect Brent Briscoe role. Especially because you think he's going to be in 10 minutes of the movie

and he's actually in two thirds. And you like him too. You're like, oh, more of this guy, more of this guy. I mean, again, in a movie that has Billy Bob Thornton giving perhaps one of the greatest performances ever in a motion picture. One of the most commanding character actor. Everyone else is, what is it? The high tide raises all boats or whatever. Yes, absolutely.

Everyone is fucking we found that in quick and the dead 2 where that movie starts and in the opening credits you're getting like split card four names and you're like these four guys are in it too right you know he just keeps on stacking them in and there's something about how well cast this whole movie is that again tonight it's so fucking good really good but all the small parts he understands like this movie is so well cast. And even when you get to Gary Cole that late in the movie, and you're like, you need to cast this part perfectly. He's a cherry on the sundae.

Because the audience needs to grab onto him really quickly. And Gary Cole is a guy who is equally well cast playing. G-Man and Creep. Yeah. He is perfect for both of them. He can be an idiot. No, 100%. I love Gary Cole.

He can be a creep. He can be a functionary. he can be a creep he can be a functionary he could be mike brady right so he walks in and you're just like i don't know if this is mike brady i don't know if this is some random good guy cop or if this is the most sociopathic man in the world and you don't know if bridget fonda is like fucking out of her gourd at this point by going like it's the guy it's the guy from the fucking picture and you're like and in the movie that we're presented with you could see a version where it's like he shoots him and that ain't the fucking he really is a guy in a series of don't

do it that could work i just think that the movie's handling of the bridget fonda character and her performance is one of the things that really differentiates it from movies of this ilk because she's the last thing monstrous well no because jackie no jackie brown's the year before her last movie is a movie i think called delivering my little but the year after this is lake placid which is a genuine fantastic she's great in that movie she has monkey bone she has monkey bone she has that 2001 where it's delivering milo jet lee movie uh kiss of the dragon it's the jet lee movie and that is it that's it so after kiss of the dragon she's like i'm tired of this and she had a run for what 15 years or something yeah i would say her first sort of big role

for single wife is what like doc hollywood or you know but it's her 90s run single wife female so what is doc hollywood what year is that that's 91 and so when does the 10 years she had a good 10 years where literally she was in everything. Yeah. She was... She was the go-to like Sandy Bullock. It could happen to you.

Remember that? Lottery ticket movie? With Nick Cage. Maybe one of the only successful Nick Cage normal guy performances. Pretty normal guy. That's true.

Right. Because we were talking about him not fitting into this. It can happen to you. You're like, I almost buy you as just some guy. But I feel like in Jackie Brown

you're just like, God, she's so funny. funny yeah this is such a specific performance we're gonna have bridget fondant that was also late in her run that's what i'm saying like i remember when she popped up in jackie brown it's like oh and you're like she must really fucking love quentin right right why would somebody this fucking huge play this bit part and stuff uh and then obviously this like and it's fun. Yeah, I think she truly just passed it in. I think she,

I believe she also. She left it all on the fucking table because like, you know, it's not like she, she's fundamentally wonderful in everything.

Yes. Like when you think about singles. Yeah, she's not a bad actor at all. No, right. You're never like,

wonderful. And by the way, I mean, she plays. She does the Badum remake of La Femme Nikita, Point of No Return. Yes,

which she's good in. Which she's really good in as well. I just saw that for the first time. What was I going to say? She plays Linda in the flashback

of Army of Darkness where they're setting up a pass. She's in one scene in Army of Darkness. And it's one of those things where you're like, why would she do this?

And apparently it was, she was such a big Sam Raimi fan and such an Evil Dead fan that she's like, is there anything, I heard you're making a third one,

is there anything I can do? That's dope. And and she was like i'll do the silent opening montage flashbacks me like her even absolutely and it's nice that she met elfman through that like i like everything about it but the fact that her character you're so i feel like programmed to think in a movie like this she's gonna be the voice of reason she's's going to be the warrior. She's got bangs. She has a sweater. She works at a library. She's got a baby. She's got a baby.

She has the baby, and she's like, now here's what you're going to do. You're going to get that baby. Yeah, while she's feeding the baby, she's like, you're going to get him to record this shit. Right.

And you're like, whoa. You're just buying. Which, by the way, is an insane plan. Oh, insane. There's a lot of ways that could not work. It's not a simple plan. It's a very complicated plan.

It's a very complicated plan. No, but this is the, I don't know about this character, and. There's a lot of ways that could not work. It's not a simple plan. It's a very complicated plan. It's a very complicated plan. No, but, like, this is the I don't know about this character and how she's coded at the beginning. And then almost immediately, she, like, gets it, and she starts coming up with big designs on it. And you're trying to figure out, like, what made her adjust so fast? Right. How did she become pot committed? And it is that scene where she says the whole fucking thing, where she has the terror the terror now well you realize that's what her fucking secret fear is like right i'm gonna we it would have been fine if this money never happened but now this money happened and you

want me to live this fucking tiny life like no way now i i've allowed myself to think what my life could look like and the thought of continuing on the way it is is unbearable that restaurant's line really hit me in a way where i was just like the once a week yeah well because i mean it's one of those things where i started feeling like i eat like out all the time yeah and it's like oh my god that's that's right like fucking for some people it's just like we only go out it's on a birthday and holiday and that hits in a real place. John Mulaney has that. Have you ever heard him tell that story where he was at a comedy club?

And you know how comedy clubs like gouge you. Comedy clubs gouge you? And like he was backstage, but he saw a couple sitting down and they are like, two drink minimum. And the guy was like, it's okay. We'll just, we won't order any food. And Mulaney was like,

I can never not make an effort at one of these things. Like, people are paying a lot of money. Right. I might be like, this is my third gig of the week or whatever. But like,

you know, there are people here who are like, this is their day out. This week, this month, or whatever. This year,

even possibly. You can't fuck around. Can I ask you a quick question about this movie? It was released in 98. Yeah. It probably set roughly around the same time you

know it's not period piece or anything like that yeah yeah yeah yeah does this movie change at all with the internet i thought about this a lot i think smartphone changes this movie fundamentally i think this is i think an internet definitely because they start looking up where the money came from that's the thing yeah and it's no longer like a pixelated picture right yeah and being able to ping people where they were, the additional paper trail of texts. And also, like, do planes disappear anymore in the day? Even then, did planes disappear?

I don't know. Especially, it didn't disappear in the Pacific Ocean. It disappeared in the forest. In Minnesota. This movie is made at the absolute last moment. That it totally works on their no concessions. Without it being a period piece. That's the thing with a lot of those Coen movies

that are those sort of what a tangled web we weave crime movies, right? Right, I mean, No Country for Old Men is nine years later and has to be set 20 years earlier. Like, Man Who Wasn't There, that's a period piece, right? You know, whatever. No, that's absolutely a big factor of it. And the scene where they dump the,

the guy, the farmer over the bridge, right. To stage this thing. There's something where you're like, this isn't going to fucking work. I'm like, you guys are way out in the open and this isn't a plain state where it's like,

if your dog runs away six days later, you're like, I still see it. So if this guy is like throwing a dude off a fucking bridge, like some neighbor, but it's like, it's the kindly sheriff thing where he's just like, I know you. throwing a dude off a fucking bridge. Like some neighbor two towns over didn't happen to see that? It's the kindly sheriff thing

where he's just like, ah, trash, I know you. And she says it too. She's like, you have to remember how people see you. Right. He's like the college educated guy. And she has a devastating line.

She's like, nobody would ever think you're capable of the things that you've done, which is a judgment right then and there. She's like, I'm sticking with you, but FYI. Yeah, but she's like, I know that you fucking

smothered an old man with your two hands, you fucking prick. And I've justified it. By the way, I understand why you did the things you do. You're not a murderous person.

You were put in a difficult position. But I think that's another factor is that like this movie is so much based around the perceptions that people have of each other, right? Bill Paxton weaponizing

how he's perceived in the town, how Billy Bob Thornton is perceived in the town. Anytime Billy Bob Thornton slips up, he's able to go like, well, you know, my brother. Yeah, he's like, well, he heard a plane. Right. Who knows what he heard. And I think it's the sense of like,

especially in a small Midwestern town or whatever, the decency of you look a man in the eyes, you tell him the truth, do you buy it or not. When you put social media, the internet, text messages, all these things into play, there are too many different types of communication where people can start creating their own perception of you, start asking more questions. That's true. The fact that Billy Bob or Paxton can just roll up to someone three days later and be like,

you know, I was thinking, and you can sell that. There's something to that. And that moment where they dump the farmer over the bridge, it's like in a wide shot like it's like a bird's eye view right they're like tiny little ants and you just see like just white snow it's in the middle of broad daylight and they just get out of their truck and they dump this guy over and they're like i think that looks pretty good and they drive away you know what's up but they're not paranoid they're not like go go go what are they gonna go. What are they going to call, CSI? Exactly. Like, no one's going to come here and be like, well, actually, this guy was smothered.

Because it's like, well, no. Inverse CSI. But with a smartphone. We're here to investigate. With a smartphone, the wrong guy could walk by at any moment, take a picture, ping it, text someone immediately. All that shit. It falls apart.

Okay. Let me give you some more context about this movie. Right. So they had to move to fucking Ashland, Wisconsin. That's where they shot this movie because there was no snow. That's where they found their snow, finally. That's where they found their snow. They had just a lot of talk about, like, Bill Paxton loved it.

I guess Bill Paxton was just a real man of the people type. He strikes me that way. Yes. The barber in the movie. I met him once. Yeah? Very nice guy. Long before I met him, do you remember a motion picture called The Dark Backward?

Yes. Yes. And before I even saw Slacker, I went to the Angelica Film Center here in Manhattan. I was going to say in Manhattan. We're here in Manhattan. We are here in Manhattan.

You know, and that was the first movie I saw there. I went because there was an ad for it. Judd Nelson's in it, as is... Paxton. Wayne Newton. Yes, Wayne Newton. I went because there was an ad for it. Judd Nelson. Judd Nelson's in it, as is... Paxton. Wayne Newton. Yes, Wayne Newton.

Lara Flynn Boyle. Lara Flynn Boyle. James Caan, who directed that again? Adam Rifkin. Adam Rifkin. Yes, right, right. So they have an ad in the Village Voice where they're like, Judd Nelson, Lara Flynn Boyle, and Bill Paxton are going to be at the midnight screening.

Oh, cool. Flynn Boyle and Bill Paxton are going to be at the midnight screening. And so that's what drives me to New York for the first time is the chance to be in the room with Judd Nelson. Yeah. Breakfast Club. Bill Paxton. Fucking aliens and shit. And of course, weird science as well. Yeah.

Chat. Chat. And Lara Flynn Boyle, who I was a massive Twin Peaks fan at that point. And that's right when that's like, I, it's huge at that point. I go up to see this movie and they're there,

as promised. Fucking famous people. And I, I never see famous people in my life. So there they are and shit like that. Before the movie begins, there's a trailer for a motion picture called Slacker. And I go,

oh, I want to, we should come back and see that. So they're saying, Paxton's the fish hook. Yeah. Paxton's the fish hook. Paxton is a bit of a hook that pulls me into the Angelica, which leads to me eventually seeing Slacker.

Now, I'm not going to lay my career at the feet of Paxton. I doubt he would have wanted that. Yeah. Seems like a humble fellow. But he would have appreciated, I think, the fact that I went to that screening because I told him when I met him through John. I was like, there was a screening of The Dark Backward and he remembered that screening he just he didn't remember seeing me yes i was like did you see the one random dude in the middle of the audience he's one of those guys

where i feel like he had one of the most sterling reputations anyone i would talk to work never heard anything bad about him that guy even in death it's not like well you know it came out afterwards no and like incredibly collaborative and he has such an interesting 90s because you like he's he's more of a character actor right he's being viewed the way that like cameron uses him from the late 80s on yes like essentially like from weird from aliens weird science on he is the dev character guy somehow he becomes the leader well it's twisted and it's weird that he's the guy man. Well, it's Twister. And it's weird that he's the guy in Twister.

So Twister's what turns him into a leading man? Yeah, and then he becomes this sort of surprising normal guy leading man. They're in it for the money, not the science. That was his big line. He was talking about the other guys in the black cars. They're in it for the money, not the science. You feel like Paxton is in that because just

being in enough Cameron movies makes him like a guy who feels comfortable in a blockbuster. But he's not an obvious choice to be the leading man of that movie. And he carves out this interesting zone because he doesn't have the swagger of a movie star. Probably budget, right? At that point, they're like, we got Helen Hunt. We got a sitcom star. We need another guy. We need a guy who's this.

Because they're like, you know who the star is? Fucking Twisters and cows. He's in Mighty Joe Young. He's the lead of that. You know who the star of that is? He's in U571. You know who the star of that is? He's a utility man that you could sting into any movie

about a thing. But he went from being the guy who was the color in the corner of the movie to be Hudson. He could be fucking big. so good in your dark exactly to then becoming this odd kind of just like collaborative utility player leading man normal that's the key the two key words is like you could see him letting or i don't know yeah you could understand him letting go of the colorful roles yes because the thing that he never considered while coming up with Cameron was, oh, I will be the leading man. He is no leading man. But yet, attractive dude.

Yeah. Has all the right fucking elements you'd want in a leading man. And there's something very personable. There's something very Midwestern. He doesn't feel like an everyman, but he feels like a normal guy. Where is he from, by the way? way bill paxton let me find out i mean i'm assuming he's from you want south america right uh he's from fort worth texas yeah it feels like a texan i mean he had the draw but i didn't know if that was you know he's he's done a lot of i mean okay so but like that and there's another movie he's in of course around this time a movie called titanic

it's kind of a big big movie people forget he's shit forget he's the, of course, around this time. A movie called Titanic. It's kind of a big movie. People forget he's the bookend of that one. I forgot he's the framing device. He took everyone in town to go see Titanic because it came out while they were shooting this movie, which seems like a fun thing. What do you mean? They're in this small town.

So while they're making a simple plan, he's like, hey, let's go see Titanic. Hey, I'm in this movie. I'm in the boat movie. Let's go see the boat movie. Let's go see it. You're working on your Paxton. I'm working on it.

The barber in this film, that's like the local barber. They were just kind of bringing in the locals. Apparently, it's one of those things. They take over the town. So the town's like, hey, sure. What do you need? Right? 55-day shoot.

Snowy. Cold. Nasty. I mean, it seems like it was kind of a pain in the ass to make this movie. But they must be thinking. Like 50 below. Sure, what do you need, right? 55-day shoot, snowy, cold, nasty. I mean, it seems like it was kind of a pain in the ass to make this movie. But they must be thinking. Like 50 below. 55 tracks for studio drama. Oscar Darling, here's a role that on paper this guy's going to fucking kill it. This feels like a slam dunk nomination.

And in the middle of this movie coming out, Titanic blows up. And Titanic, the runoff is so strong. And Paxton is the fucking beginning and the end of the movie. He is, yeah. Where that boosts his profile even more. People must have been like, we're playing with house money. So wait, was Titanic pre or post Twister? Post.

Titanic is post. Because Twister's 96. Right. And Titanic's 97. And then this movie comes out in 98. Jim Jacks mentioned here in our research, because obviously sam raimi famous for his wild camera work right so he was very much like i had a lot of confidence in the script i just want to put the camera in the right place i wanted the actors to tell the story jim jacks says paramount

very concerned about his camera work and told jim you are monitoring whether or not he's reining it in and the studio told like you're on duty you're on exactly he the quote on sticks don't give that guy a fucking track and let's just like look we all love this movie obviously uh we we think it's an incredible achievement but let's just pause for a moment and think about the note behind that note essentially a studio in this instance paramount big studio is like um you know what sam raimi does don't let him do that you better not let him why the fuck would you hire a guy cinematic yeah and be like don't do the thing that you do it is weird that they'd hire

him and like that that is that probably is that like you're saying it's the jim jacks thing where he's like i can vouch for this guy and they're like, you better watch his ass. Yeah, I'll ride him. I'll ride him. Watch his ass. I'm the fucking Sam whisperer. Because Jack says, my biggest job was to sit on set

and make sure he didn't do any quote unquote tongue in cheek stuff. Which by the way, for Hard Target, Sam Raimi was the backup director because the studio was so terrified of John Woo

and they were like, how many fucking birds is he going to put in this thing? Raimi sits behind him and if he's going too crazy, day five we fire Woo and Raimi takes over. And now Raimi's in a position where they're like, you better not do this fucking crazy

Raimi shit. It is funny that they were so against any kind of maximalist. That was very much a thing of my era. When I first got into the business was we love what you do now change it right tone it down they don't seem to do that anymore no but then again it's also a different world

like for example i was a son dance kid with these things john watts sure yes sundance yeah yeah right and then went from one sundance movie a tiny sundance right into the fucking main well that's the thing there's no longer that. Like, Chris Nolan does Insomnia post-Memento. It's like, okay, Insomnia, a very

similar movie to this, right? You're going to do your cold crime movie. Quiet. You can have some movie stars.

You can have a big-ish budget. Let's see how you do. It's a middle step. And now it's just like, oh,

you shot Kevin Bacon three weeks in a cop car. You want to make $250 million Spider-Man? And we were talking about

that. Have you ever seen a cop car? Yeah, it's pretty good. It's a wonderful movie, but what do you think Kevin Feige saw that said Spider-Man? I don't know, except that, like, it is, like, it's, it, it, it tonally probably appealed to him

in, like, this is balancing goofiness and humor with, like, a little bit of an edge. An edge, yeah. Right, like, you know. But apart from that, I mean, and I am such a Kevin Bacon slut that I was like yeah but apart from that i mean i i am such a kevin bacon slut that i was just kind of like kevin bacon's having a great time right so maybe there's the kind of thing like he got every ounce of juice out of this movie star but i also feel

like i don't know i just i don't know i don't know how feige does that though how he's like this one i mean i give it up for incredible in the room for having an eye oh absolutely something that he said for seeing the person being like i think i can get some cast a wide net with these movies right we're like chloe zhao getting eternals people were like where the fuck does that come from it was like he met with her on black widow and he met with her on that because he saw the writer and no one else would have made that jump. And he was like, we're not ready to hire you for this, but good meeting will keep you in mind. You know? And I think John Watts was probably a wide net, let's meet with this guy.

He made a good calling card movie. We'll keep him in mind. And then everything I've heard is that he just pitched the shit out of that movie. That he was the guy who had the best take. And even if he didn't have the bona fides, they were like his enthusiasm. He seems to have a real handle. And he's like, I'm a good backstop. I seems to have a real handle. And I'll tell you something. He's like, I'm a good backstop.

I will. Yeah, he's like, look, I'll be Jim Jacks. I'll sit on the set and make sure they make Spider-Man. No one can possibly fuck them up too much now. It's unique. That is the vibe. We've been talking a lot in just going through these episodes where it's like when you zoom out,

it is wild that Sam Raimi got hired to make Spider-Man. It is wild because he was coming off of three adult dramas right and his genre movies were seen as like a little second class they weren't big blockbusters right and uh and they just didn't hire nerds to make superhero and they don't have right you could say this right if you were too big of a fan they would get worried yeah right and they were like they didn't want to hire like i remember when i went into the studio um i got that the superman right you were on super right in the superman late yeah my first thing to them was like why don't you hire mike carlin who runs the dc superman group all the comics in

he's fucking written every superman story there is and the the the it was uh basil awanek who's went on to i think he produced argo and stuff like that but he was a studio exec at that point and he goes um yeah but he's a comic book guy right they're just like no no no they did not want comic book guys writing movies which i'm like it makes no sense now yeah they fucking cherry pick like fucking crazy by the way like someone on our reddit was going like why do they keep on talking about how weird it was that ramey got hired like look at tim burton it was batman was his third movie he had made two comedies for warner brothers and it's like first of all those two comedies were very successful they both overperformed they were both for warner brothers he was in the studio system yeah they liked him he had a clear vision and the

other thing was they wanted so badly to make batman into a comedy there were so many years of development of like let's do ivan reitman bill murray batman batman was still based around the adam west perception great issue of starlog from 1983 that has return of the jedi in the cover maybe 84 um i still have it but inside there's an interview with tom mankiewicz script doctor tom mankiewicz who was most famous for at that point writing superman the movie um with mario puso with mario puso but largely who mostly got his shit thrown out yeah um he gives this interview where he talks about doing a very dark Batman compared to the Adam West thing. And they drew, there's an illustration, Mad Magazine type illustration of, you know, Batman and Robin and Adam West and Burt Ward in a closet and a guy in a armored Batsuit slamming the door.

Sure, sure. Six years before fucking Batman. yeah so he i'll never forget this he took because it captured my imagination he goes uh for the penguin we're thinking about peter o'toole yeah where you're like what that would have been fucking amazing but he also said but like for batman bruce wayne we're thinking bill murray but not comedic bill murray sure razor's edge so they were trying they were trying to skew it yeah like it ain't gonna be silly like the other batman we're gonna go dark but i mean the cultural perception of batman was still very much adam west and i think burton gets the job

because he's a comedy director and surprises everyone by playing it more straight but isn't it also that it's just like they're it's not hallowed ground in the same way back then. Not that they're not treating it with a lot of- No, it's definitely not hallowed ground. There were dollar signs on it. We got to worry about these comic book people. There's a million directors who are like, fuck no, I'm not doing a Batman movie. That's ridiculous.

And think about it. I think he winds up with Batman because he makes two very successful movies. Yeah. Warner Brothers, you get Picket-A-Litter. What do you want to do? These are the Glenn Gary leads and shit. Yeah. And in it, he recognizes something where he's like, oh, I could play with Batman.

Right. He's not my favorite thing. He didn't care about it. I think I could do a cool, dark version of this. But the jobs aren't as competitive in the way at that time. They're not the desired, the gold, the brass ring movie jobs, right? It's not the top of the mountain. I think a lot of people duck in it.

I think you're right. I think a lot of people would be like, Batman, no thanks. And I think even with Spider-Man at that point, that's still true. Because Spider-Man's the one that changes it all. Like, when that thing becomes like the hit upon hits, that's when it's like, oh shit. Obviously, X-Men had been the year before, but still it's still Mason. I haven't thought about the fact that, like, Raimi is not the obvious choice.

No, not really. He was like, I was so convinced. Brilliant choice. So who makes the choice? Well, we'll talk about it. But I mean, I don't know who does make the choice. I think it's a combination of Arad and Pascal. Avi Arad obviously is involved.

Right. But I do think weirdly, it's's like i don't think he ever would have gotten hired for spider-man if he hadn't made a simple plan because they were like this guy made a grown-up picture he's got to make us like you're right you know like he could do he could do it all right speaking of all this i do want to point out they couldn't predict that he would have gone full fucking mgm musical with spider-man and was like, I'm going to make this so stylized. I mean, like one beat in three movies and the guy's got to carry it like herpes. So the rest of it was like, you made Spider-Man dance.

It's like, come on. That beat is so good, too. It's like fucking, that's pure Raimi shit. It is pure Raimi, but that's the thing. It's almost, it's coming out of the box and people are like, whoa, this is so much. They needed Jim Jacks to sit on set and tell him not to Ramey that too much. The other thing that's interesting, obviously, the whole weird connection of all this is like,

who was on Spider-Man before Ramey is Jim Cameron, right? For years. Yeah, good point. And Bill Paxton's in this movie, obviously, and he's got this great quote that our researcher dug up where when Paxton and Cameron I guess are making Terminator

Cameron's like let's go see Evil Dead 2 I don't know why, it must have been late in that because Evil Dead 2 is late 80s right? 86? But basically Cameron calls up Bill Paxton and is like have you seen Evil Dead 2 yet? Bill's like what's Evil Dead? Aliens, it must have been when they were doing Aliens

Bill's like what's Evil Dead 2? And Bill's like, what's Evil Dead? It must have been when they were doing Aliens. Aliens, sure. Bill's like, what's Evil Dead 2? And Cameron says, I'll pick you up in 15 minutes. They go to like a dollar theater. They see Evil Dead 2 at like 5 in the afternoon. Cameron has already seen it. And he's like, watch this movie. They watch the movie.

And at the end, he's like, this guy's a hell of a filmmaker. It's not every day you see a movie that starts a new genre. This is the horror cartoon. So Cameron's just blown away by ramey so there is that intermingling like cameron clearly recognizes like this guy is not a game recognizes this guy is like a special filmmaker he you know paxton apparently was like a runner-up for dark man so like was he really he'd been like circling Raimi before that. There's something really oddly satisfying and even a little bit titillating at knowing that Jim Cameron was like,

I'm going to take you to see Evil Dead. Isn't it cool? That he was passing it around like the way you pass around. You've got to watch Holy Grail. He's on tape. It's VHS here, I guess, but still right where it's like

we're going to the fucking dollar theater right now. Like, this thing is like a secret. This is a filmmaker taking an actor to see somebody else's film. Look at what this guy's doing

with the camera. And being a big fan of it. This is me, like, a decade plus later having older nerds tell me, like, you gotta fucking watch Evil Dead 2. And the idea that the person who exposes you to Evil Dead 2 is

James Cameron. Yeah. Rather than the guy at the video store, you know? That's true. My other favorite. There was someone who watched that. It was with the idea that the person who exposes you to evil dead too is James Camper rather than the guy at the video store. You know, my other favorite, I watched that. It was with the guy that made Titanic. My other,

cause basically, cause this, all the research is just filled with people being like, Rami's great. You know, Paxton being like, I always wanted to work with him cause camera to turn me on to him. Right.

You know, Gary Cole basically says, and this is recently says that's the best movie I've ever been in. Wow. And I'm barely in it. And it's still my favorite movie in terms of movies I've been in. I, you know, I would have to give a long, hard think to his career. He's got a long filmography. He's got a ton of good movies. He's he's got I mean, he's within fucking four films of being absolutely accurate. And he's not accurate isn't that crazy

to think that he's like yeah like i've been in fifth you know and he's like i'm barely in it and still it's the greatest that's the best fucking thing i ever it's imminently watchable movie which is why i have been watching it for decades i saw it at the beverly center when it first came out on a tiny ass screen that i this is gonna to sound gross, but my TV screen at home now is bigger than the one we saw at Simple Plan in the tiniest theater.

But once it came out on DVD, it never left rotation. It would be a go-to-sleep film. You said, I mean, it's like important to your relationship

with your wife? Absolutely. It was one of like the five movies upon which our, like, and we barely knew each other when she got pregnant and married and stuff. So like you learn a lot about a motherfucker when you go to the movies with them. This is how I learned about like, well, this is the person I'm spending the rest of my life with who's having our child. Um, you know, the fact that she loved this movie and thought it was brilliant. I was like, all right, well, she's smart. We have a similar taste in film, but it was also a comfort movie. she's smart we have a similar taste in film but it was also a comfort movie we've seen it so many times gentle energy as much as it makes you squirm and you're like bill don't do it you know like yeah

but if you've seen it a hundred times then it's like a warm blanket where you're like oh here comes all the bad decisions the ambience of it is weirdly comforting and and the elfman score is so fucking good and i feel like unlike anything else in his career. Elfman doing what Sam Raimi, what we're accusing Sam Raimi of doing here, which is not being Sam Raimi. He's not doing Danny Elfman. It's such a good score. And, you know, everyone's trying to win an award is what it feels like. But not in a way to piss you off.

Not in a thirsty, desperate way. A lot of integrity. But all the elements were there where it's just like, this is a grown-ass movie and it could probably win awards. And everyone challenging themselves. Yeah. One of the best scenes in the movie, right, is, I'm sure you guys agree,

is that monologue that Thornton does about his high school girlfriend, right? Oh, God, just fucking heartbreaking. In the car, right? Like, incredible, probably his Oscar clip, I guess. I don't know what it was, but, you guess. I don't know what it was. I don't know. Him at the end of the movie where he goes, tell the girl the bear's for me.

Will you do that? That really fucks me up. All that stuff with the bear actually really messes me up. Especially when she's judgy about the bear. She's like, this dirty old thing. And he's like, no, this is a bear from my childhood. She's like, oh, okay. But that scene, that's ramey just again he's not moving the camera around he's not doing like because on quick of the dead there's a lot of stories of

him being like okay gene hackman i have eight camera setups i want to do you're gonna like cock your gun you're gonna do that you're gonna tip your head and hackman's like i hate this shit is that right he was like it was a death right yeah we're a simple plan he's like ramey's like i'm leaving the camera running thornton improvised that entire speech that's a real story from his life you're shitting yeah that's from my childhood that's not in the book no thornton says we were losing the light and i just kind of told that story kind of at the end of the day i didn't prep anyone for it. And I didn't like talk about it with anyone afterward.

Wow. And like, Raimi was just like, that was like watching theater for me. Like that was just like, oh shit. It's incredible. Isn't that cool?

What a catch. Yeah. Could you imagine you're already making a pretty cool movie and then all of a sudden somebody's like, oh, by the way, here. As you said,

guys giving a performance of a lifeguard. This is a good movie. Already. This is a good movie. This is like a A movie. Could it be an A plus though? and then all of a sudden somebody's like, oh, by the way, here. As you said, Guy's given a performance of a lifeguard already. This is a good movie. This is like an A movie. Could it be an A plus, though? Could I give you a little? Yeah, right.

I think I'm going to give you something deeply personal which is going to make this so much more real. Like one of the darkest memories of my, yeah. The heartbreaking thing in that scene is like,

so much of the movie is Paxton reckoning with the fact that everyone thinks he's kind of arrogant right that he thinks he's the normal every man that's the center of this story right and that he which by the way is set up before the movie begins yeah like where he's like last week you said that was an insinuation and you're like why are you talking about shit happened before the movie right right they trust the audience will be able to follow right and it starts where you're just

like this weird anti-intellectualism everyone has against this guy and as the movie goes on his his weird areas of elitism are revealed right like you do understand how much he does kind of pity his brother in a gross way right you know where he does think less of him. Yeah, he does. And he's always told himself like, well, I don't have to worry about him that much because he had that girlfriend one time. You know,

like this weird thing where it's like, I know my brother dated a girl for a month 20 years ago, so I'm never going to question the fact that I've never seen him interact with a woman ever again. And when he makes that comment

about like, oh, if I was rich, I could get a girl. And he's like, you had that one girl in high school for a month? And Thornton just unpacks it and goes like that whole thing was a fucking mirage right and you see the reaction on paxton's face where he just suddenly immediately realizes the depths of this man's loneliness which have never been revealed to him before and that he never took

the time to investigate to really check in on how is my brother doing emotionally on this level. It tracks with the dad stuff where he finds out the dad killed himself. This guy has been living his own life. Caught up in his own story. In his own story. He refuses to believe that anything in his life could have put pressure on his father to a degree that he would have to make a decision like that. He can't think about darkness. No.

And then when he's doing this shit, it's just coming out of nowhere. Where you're like, you know, he can't, right, yeah. But the speed at which Thornton turns the thing around and like when Paxton starts pitying him again, but really in an empathetic way for the first time, arguably in the whole movie, that he's like, it actually wasn't that bad.

When I saw her in the hallway after that, she'd still say hi to me. Like he genuinely is like, no, that was a nice relationship. He's a guy that's used to living with so little. Which is kind of what makes that a modicum of respect. That even a tiny bit is manna in the desert and shit. That's the best way out of this. There's a nobility to him.

It's true. Even in that scene where he's just like, this is the smartest plan. Like, this will work. I'm not saying it's the right thing. But where he's just like this is this this is the smartest plan like this will work i'm not saying it's the right thing but where he's like i've thought this through you have a kid her life's more important what am i going to amount to in the world like i don't feel bad about this and also he's just like i can't live with this shit right he's like i can't you might be able to i don't have the processes to what do you want to say about well we're celebrating the dramatic parts, like the sad parts of the performance.

He is so funny. He's fucking hysterical. And the scene that I feel like we just... I want to make sure we mention it is when he is doing the impression of Bill Paxton. He's like, do the bird. You ever see someone drink like that? That is so...

It is insane. The impression of the bird makes me laugh every fucking time. Yeah, yeah. Where he does his face. He's like... And the way he changes, too, and you see how he hangs with this friend and how their relationship,

how they hang out, how they joke around. He's selling out his fucking brother. He's fucking it up. Yeah, and then all of a sudden he's like, oh, shit, he's turning around. That's the scene where you start to realize what his intelligence is, right? He's not the...

Because you're like, this is him doing the same shit he did where he walked up to the sheriff and said, like, you tell him about the plane? Where he's, like, overplaying his hand, getting sloppy,

you know, like, unable to, like, stick to his allegiances. And then there's that moment where, like, Paxton's like, we should leave, we should leave, shut this down.

Like, he doesn't want Billy Bob Thornton to blow it. And Billy Bob Thornton doubles down. And he's like, no, we're staying. Don't be a fucking coward about this you stay here and you think that it's just he's gonna vent all of his pent up

anger at his brother which I think he does do yes he does cake and eating it's a roundabout and he's fucking really putting the screws to Hank but then I'm nailing it harder than you think I am your plan was not gonna work you were not gonna be able to sell this I can get through to him and it's gonna eat me up inside that i fucking i mean he has the

line in that scene where he's like you're more of a brother to me than he ever i got nothing which is right i mean it's and feels true yeah yeah yeah yeah that was great the only thing we haven't mentioned at all is just the brutality of the post, you know, Jacob's death stuff where it's like, now you have to burn the money. Now you have to live. That's the sweetest plum, bro. Exactly. Now you got to be alive. That's when you're watching the movie and you're like, oh, this is delicious.

Because, you know, you're watching the movie and you're like, this ends with a mobster cutting Bill Paxton's head off, right? Like, eventually he gets an over his head. I don't know. Bill Paxton's head off, right? Like, eventually he gets an offer for his head. I'm trying to think, like, what I would have imagined, because I'd have to go back to, like, 98, but what I would have imagined the ending would be.

Because you just keep thinking, like, the professionals might show up, right? Like, this was a whole thing. This was some drug run. This was some... It'll become a more conventional thriller earlier. When Gary Cole shows up, you're like, okay, are we finally cooking with gas? And then it's like, no, no, Paxtonxton gets to live he gets to live in this prison like he's made for

himself forever you know the uh how do you feel about the voiceover beginning and end i don't mind it i don't mind it at all i like one thing i did not remember when i watched the movie this time you were sort of like oh there's a yeah i i bumped into it not in a bad way where i was like fuck this movie but i was like i don't remember there being are you anti-voice i'm trying to think if you use voiceover i don't i don't know that i've ever used it i did a little bit at the beginning of jersey girl but that was like a fix and post right but generally no i don't think i've ever used because obviously it has a bit of a you know some people like oh you can no no but he does it very sparingly it's in the beginning i think and then at the end. I think it's good,

it's novelistic. Almost like, Presumed Innocent opens the same way. There's a bit of narration in the beginning, a bit of narration there. No Country,

also the beginning with Tommy Lee Jones over just sort of the planes where it's just kind of like, this is more of a tone setting thing than anything else. It's what kind of tale we're telling.

And this movie is not ending with a punch. Right. it's not ending with a sort of like, you're rattled. Roll credits. Get the fuck out of here. Which I like it when a movie does that, obviously.

But this movie's like, and that's the rest of it. And six more decades of Bill Paxton feeling this way. That's what's going to happen. Can I read what the book ending is? It's fun. It's like the movie you imagine after the movie ends is equally as enjoyable

because you're like, oh, they're both in hell. Yeah, exactly. It's a Twilight Zone ending. Periodically, they must talk about it. Because I love Fargo, right? Which is obviously sort of a cousin to this movie, right? Agreed. But Fargo ends, you're like, it's a bloodbath.

Everyone's dead or in jail. People are being punished accordingly. Marge goes home. Her husband got the fucking duck stamp. And you're just like, oh, thank God. One good thing. It's gonna be alright. She's gonna have her baby.

It's only the tree scent stamp, but still. People need the little tree scent stamp when they raise the postage. All this over a little bit of money. And this, it's just, you're just like, holy shit, this is some evil Aesop fable thing, where it's just you're just like holy shit this is some like you know evil aesop fable thing where it's like he's just tortured but that's the thing it's like the

worst case scenario in a way you're expecting that either there will be all this blood there will be all this suffering but he will get away with the money at the end and the question is was it worth it right or you're expecting a horrible tragic ending where everyone fucking dies right or jail like he telegraphs the ending three times the movie he's like i'll burn it i swear to god Or you're expecting a horrible, tragic ending where everyone fucking dies. Or jail. He telegraphs the ending three times in the movie. He's like, I'll burn it. I swear to God, I'll burn it. And it is kind of the most tragic ending, which is he has to sit there and watch the money burn.

He has to stand there and watch it burn and recognize this was truly for nothing. Yeah. My brother is dead. All these people are dead, including my brother. There's blood on my hands. I will never get over this. I've seen my wife change. I know how she feels about me and our life.

We're just going to be these ghosts who raise a child. Right. Yes. This is how the book ends. Okay. So like same basic run of events. As you said, Jacob dies earlier.

Jacob dies earlier. I think the book, the husband wife relationship is more prominent than the brother relationship. And I think probably largely because of Billy Bob, they shift the focus. Right. Wisely. Very much so jacob dies earlier things proceed fairly similarly um when uh the the fbi tells him that well yeah we had 20 agents writing bills down right um he realizes that he uh already spent one of the bills at a convenience store.

I'm just going to read this from the Wikipedia. Oh, shit. Sarah tells Hank, sorry, that she has already spent one of the bills at a convenience store. He goes there to steal it back. In a fight with the cashier, Hank kills the man with a machete. When an elderly woman demands to be let into the store, he kills her as well. Hank flees with the bill and is never suspected. Hank goes home and burns the money over

Sarah's protest. In the epilogue, Sarah has a baby boy whom they named Jacob. A few weeks after the birth, their daughter nearly drowns in a wading pool and suffers permanent brain damage. Hank and Sarah accept this as a punishment for their crimes. Hank narrates that he pictures

his brother Jacob from time to time, but only because his memory makes him feel more human. the ending is much more bleaker and nastier and this just leaves you with the note of as you said what do they fucking do with them that little girl their daughter yes it's too much you can't do it i mean she's not real so we could right she is not really but she drowned she drowns in his people and his brain is brain dead yeah and they not they're like the Lord did this to us? Yeah, this is the punishment for what we did. That's one thing that seems to be missing in this movie.

It's very Midwestern, but there's not a lot of reference to God and faith and religion. But it does be biblical. It's all morality. It's more subterranean. That is a dark fucking ending. And two more bodies. Two more bodies. Yes. Two more bodies. And another crime scene he mysteriously,

the sheriff's just like, I don't know, people just are dying this year. What can I say? It takes a gifted author to make all, like, because you can put it through a comedic fucking, like, filter, and this is Penn and Teller get killed

or something like that. You know, it's just a series, which I think is also George War Hill. We have to play the box office with Kevin Griffin because we're wrapping up here. But this is a very interesting box office game.

Kevin, this is the same thing I do. My father and I bonded as a child because my brother liked sports and I did not. And he would read

the sports scores with my brother in the paper every day and then once a week I had my... Movie stats? Yeah. Nice.

Monday morning, open up the business section of the New York Times. Look at the top 10. Because of this, because it's the backbone of my emotional relationship with my father, I have a weird memory for box office tracks. He knows a lot of box office. So we're going to try and guess the top five. There was a guy who's now recently a listener of our show who programmed a Wordle-style game where every day you have to guess the top five.

Inspired by our podcast. It's a really good game. Box office. Gah. Dot. Emmy. Okay. But top five for this movie.

This movie never got like a hyper wide release. It came out. So this movie came out December 11th, 98. Okay. A real, you know, limited release. Yeah. And pushing for Oscar. Pushing for Oscar.

Real awards season release. Yeah. It made $16 million, which was about its budget. Opening weekend 16? No, no, no. Total. Total. So not great.

Right. And it gets screenplay and Thornton. It got two nominations, which it lost. So whatever. So they were hoping for like, well, the Oscar steam will push this to 50. Get us to 35, 40.

Yeah, exactly. Right. It'll play for months. And it's weird because it got good reviews. It got Oscar nominations, but it never just quite whatever. It's the year of, so you got St. Prevarine, Thin Red Line,

Life is Beautiful is kind of a phenomenon, right? There's a lot of other- Is this the year that he climbs across the chairs and shit? Yep. Benini? Yeah. Sam Raimi would not have done that. Not at all.

All right. Number one at the box office, though. Hey, buddy. Excuse me, buddy. I'm stepping on your chair. Oh, buddy. Why'd you have to step on me, buddy? I got my new tux on, buddy. All right. Number one at the box office, though. Hey, buddy. Excuse me, buddy. I'm stepping on your chair. Oh, buddy. Why'd you have to step on me, buddy? I got my new tux on, buddy.

Step in. December 11th, 1998, Griffin. Number one is a sci-fi sequel. It's new this week. Is it Star Trek Insurrection? Yes. Okay. Star Trek Insurrection, which is with Murray Abraham.

The third card movie with F. Murray Abraham as the villain. Wrinkle Man. Right. This is a plastic surgery aliens, right? Yes. Yes. Not the most successful. Yes, yes, yes. The second Jonathan Frakes film

after the wild success of First Contact, which he also directed. Okay, so I just remember my friend Kier Kramlich wanted to see this and I had never seen an episode of a Star Trek show

nor a Star Trek movie and I said, I'm not going to jump in on Insurrection and I definitely voted for something else in the top five to see and said,

I'm trying to remember. You're like Mary Lou Henner, bro. You've got a photographic fucking memory. Only with this. But I'm just trying to think there was some dumb fucking baby.

I don't remember what time we are ever set to record. Well, you're probably going to get... Okay, so number two is an animated film. Fully animated. Absolutely.

The Rugrats movie? No, that is number five. Prince of Egypt? No. Ants? You're close. I'm close. Bugs Life? Oh, that is number five. Prince of Egypt? No. Ants? You're close. I'm close. Bugs Life?

Oh, it's a Bugs Life. A Bugs Life. I can't believe that was my fourth guess. I know, I was like, geez, you're the Pixar boy. So wait, that was number two? Bugs Life is number two. Okay. And Rugrats movie, as he already guessed, is number five.

So you got two animated movies in there. Bugs Life is in like weekend two or three. It's in weekend four. Okay. It's made two animated movies in there. Pug's Life is in like weekend two or three. It's in weekend four. Okay. It's made $83 million. Great. Now, I don't even want to do number three yet because it's such a big boy. Okay.

We'll come back around. Number four is a thriller with a movie star who's recently been in the news. Hmm. It is Enemy of the State. Enemy of the State. Oh, shit. Yeah. Pretty fun movie.

Jason Lee's in that too. He sure is. There's a lot of fun in that movie. There's in that too he sure is there's a lot of fun in that movie there's a lot of fuck a duck a lot of guys in that movie

Jack Black Seth Green a lot of people just mix it up Jamie Kennedy yeah Enemy of the State that's a Tony Scott movie

of course now number three it's new this week we've mentioned it on this episode on this episode it's a family dramedy

it's a family dramedy it's got a supernatural twist. In 98 with a supernatural twist. It's not a good movie. It's not a good movie. No. We mentioned it. We have mentioned it.

It was widely discussed right at the top of this episode. It was widely discussed right at the top of the context about A Simple Plan. Oh, is it Jack Frost? It's Jack Frost. I did not know this. Jack Frost comes out against a simple plan. They're both new this week.

Raimi must have been sitting there going like, I got money for one snowy movie. What am I going to see? Does this snowman find money? I'm going to see the George Clooney fucking frosty picture. Did Jack Frost outgrow a simple plan?

I bet it was close it did it made 34 million dollars doubled that's rude so some other movies think about it but by the way frost is everything you think of when you think of a movie something unrealistic you're gonna take on an adventure absolutely simple plan could have literally happened to somebody and by the way that i guarantee you that is the movie i convinced Keir Cranmer to see instead of Star Trek Insurrection. No question. I mean, I'm sure you saw

the Rugrats movie. You saw Bug's Life. I'd seen both of those movies three times by this point. I'm saying this weekend I would have gone to see Jack Frost. Some other movies

in the top ten. The Waterboy. Okay. Oh, shit. Meet Joe Black. Oh, shit. Babe Pig in the City. Wow.

Notorious Bomb, which we've covered on this podcast. Yes, a sequel to the uberly successful Babe. George Miller being like, fuck you, I'm making Babe Pig in the City Wow Notorious Bomb Which we've covered On this podcast Great movie An episode that everyone likes Uberly successful babe George Miller being like Fuck you I'm making this

That's a perfect example Of a blank check I'm taking it back Gus Van Sant's Psycho Which we just That we referenced earlier In its second week Has dropped 62%

Audiences are like No thank you The idea behind The making of that movie As he said many times Is like Nobody watches Psycho So what if I did it in color somebody's gonna do it so i defend that movie i think that movie is fascinating i we talk about that movie on uh i

i've been on a number of podcasts historically i've been doing it since 2007 uh hollywood this is not my first i don't know if you could tell by my rockin to our nature um the uh we talk about um there's a moment in psycho a very famous moment where uh she gets killed in the shower yeah i heard of it yeah and when anne hayes shower scene the shower scene when anne hayes is the one getting killed in the shower. She's stabbed. She falls forward. The overhead shot has her brown eye on full display. One of the only times you've ever seen a major motion picture actor asshole. Butthole. Yeah.

Not their cheeks. I know what you're talking about. Fucking sphincter. That was the thing that like, I don't care what Gus Van Sant did with Psycho. I was like, did anybody else see that? That's a choice. That is, I mean, how do you, that would never happen again in this day and age. Somebody would digitally erase that. Sure, it would be airbrushed or whatever.

They digitally erase. Let it sit there and ride. And if you're like an asshole fetishist, if you go to Pornhub and you're like, only assholes. Yeah. You can literally enjoy Gus Van Sant's Psycho for that three seconds. That's my new OnlyFans competitor I'm launching, which is OnlyAsshole. We're going to promise you one hole and only one hole. That's it.

And you don't even know who it belongs to. Do you know that Disney Plus in their Splash, if you watch Disney Plus, the version of Splash they have, they have digitally erased Daryl Hannah's butt crack? They didn't erase it. They extended her hair over it. Did you know that? Yes, but it's weird. So wait, in the scene when she's on the Statue of Liberty and walks around?

Anytime you see her tush in that movie, she no longer has a butt crack. It is covered in obscenely long hair. That movie already had a PG rating. Absolutely. You're saying they would never let someone show butthole again. They won't even let people show crack anymore in movies that were made 35 years ago. Was that?

Yeah, that was always a Disney movie. It was Touchstone. So her ass was in the movie. Changing standards. It's one of those classic 80s things where you're like, oh, there's a butt in a PG movie. You know, it was exciting. But I mean, it's not even, was it? It's a fairly chaste.

Yeah. I don't even remember like the cheeks spreading or anything like that. No, that's what I'm saying. No butthole. And they still felt the need to protect us from Daryl Hannah's 40-year-old ass. Yeah.

Ass from 40 years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Splash and beat. It's wild. Kevin, thank you so much for doing this. This is fun. You guys should be happy

that I don't live out here. I'd be here every week and you'd be like, we don't want you to be here, but I'd be like, oh, I want to talk about things. We'll lasso you in again. Yeah, you'll be back um deeply satisfying

gents what what a what a cool concept for a show what a great conversation you know i i remember on my way over i was just like we're gonna talk about film and i was so fucking delighted to talk about film that's right and and i mean look we we have two great researchers who work for our show and dig up a lot of incredible stuff but the jim jacks uh context i think was incredibly important i came i came loaded for bear i had a thing so i was happy aside from like wanting to talk about this movie because i like i feel this is his masterwork yeah and i you know i'm sam ramey is a brilliant director he's done many brilliant movies. But this movie, even though it doesn't look a fucking thing like a Sam Raimi movie,

is an absolute fucking masterwork. I wonder how he feels about it. I do too. You know what I'm saying? I wonder if he's complicated. Because when he did Drag Me to Hell, it's like,

oh, he's doing kind of an Evil Dead kind of thing. But he's never done something like this again. I'm really wondering. He's had, there's a couple things. Could be his Jersey Girl

where he's like, you know, I tried a thing and I got fucking spanked and I will never go back there. He's signed up's a couple things could be his Jersey Girl where he's like you know I tried a thing and I got fucking spanked and I will never go back he's like signed up for a couple things in the last 10 or 15 years

that didn't come to fruition that were closer to this yeah that's true but they never he was gonna remake a prophet the French movie that won

the prison dramas and I think there was like one or two other dramas that he attached himself to at some point he'd find a hot blacklist script I don't know man I've seen the trailers

multiverse of madness looks like it's a rerun of a simple plan to be honest yeah that's very actually you're actually right it's very similar they go to every universe

and they see if there's one where they get away with taking the money no fuck jesus you killed me in this one what's going on thornton's got the farm it's doing great

they come to the gary cole is president the farm's doing great. Gary Cole is president? The farm's doing great. The farm's blowing up. They're going to kick us out of this studio. Everyone should watch Masters of the Universe Revelation. A phenomenal show that you were

showrunner on. I'm very proud to be. Your performance is wonderful. Your episode, as we say in the run. Episode 4 is the big orc. But thank you for that. episode, as we say, in the run. Episode four is the big orc wrap. But thank you for that. I look forward to hopefully finding other words

we can work together. Absolutely. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to J.J. Birch and Nick Lariano for our research, A.J. McKeon, Alex Barron for our editing. Lane Montgomery, the great American novel for our theme song.

Pat Reynolds and Joe Bone for our artwork. Marie Barty for our social media and helping put the show together. You can go to blankcheckpod.com for links to all the nerdy things. Merch, Reddit, what have you. Tune in next week for for Love of the Game. Yeah, I can't remember. We always forget. It's for the love

or for love. It doesn't matter. There's one the and it feels like there should be two but one of them is missing. For Love of the Game. Yeah.

And you can go to patreon.com slash blank check with blank check special features where we're doing not all Batman. Yeah, that's right.

The Batman movies we haven't covered. So every Batman movie not directed by Tim Burton or Chris Nolan. Or Chris Nolan. Or Chris Nolan. Thank you all for listening. And I just want to, not to put him on blast, but one more time.

Ben's text last night excitedly while watching this movie was all caps, exclamation point, COLD CRIME. Cold crime. I love it when it's icy, baby.