Blank Check with Griffin & David - Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore with Katey Rich

Episode Date: August 23, 2026

"Martin Scorsese doesn't make movies about women" - WRONG. "Martin Scorsese doesn't make movies that would work as a long-running workplace sitcom" - ALSO WRONG. Katey Rich joins us to chat about Scorsese's unexpected follow-up to Mean Streets, 1974's Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. We're talking diners, Ellen Burstyn, parenting strategies, "women's pictures," and far more Hootie & The Blowfish than you'd expect from this episode. We're also not "trying silence," okay? Buy the Hootie and the Blowfish shirt Katey (and David) have.  Listen to the Screen Draft eps with Griffin and Katey. Read about how Katherine LaNasa says Ghost of Ex-Husband Dennis Hopper Haunted Her: 'It Was Super Upsetting.' Read Vincent Canby’s review. Subscribe to Prestige Junkie at the Ankler and Fighting in the War Room. Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A podcast for everyone who has ever dreamed of a second chance. The marketing on this movie was insane. I mean, I'm gonna put forward that it's insane that the poster for this movie is just... Burson and Christofferson smiling. I didn't work. I don't want to see that. I think it worked because people are like, well, I'd like to see that. I'd like to, I'd like Chris Christopherson to take me in his loving arms.

You like Ellen Burstyn, like his beard. We all want that. Would you argue that's not really what the movie is? But what would you say the movie is? Just like her crying? Like, you know what that? Yeah, but that's not going to go on a poster? I think it's funny.

This is like, you know, it's Ellen Burstyn's Oscar-winning performance. I would say it's an element. It's a strong element of the movie. No one's walking out of there being like, well, there was no Chris Christopherson hugging in that film. I feel cheated. Like, it's in there. But I think this movie is more than anything about a woman stuck in cycles.

and this movie poster presents it as if like one door closed and another one opened. It is actually. The door creaks open and she's like, I think it's safe to walk through this story. Exactly. I mean, throwing out the idea that a movie about a woman is being sold with a man on the poster. This is true. That's never been done before. No.

And him being above the title is kind of nuts. It's Ellen Burstyn and Chris Christopherson. I mean, and what? This is two years. No, where are stars born relative to this? After this. After this. This is the early

him acting. We can talk about it. But he's already very famous. But he's very famous. He's very famous. You know, he's someone you want, you know, to show off because it's like, hey,

we got, we got this guy. Oh, he wrote that song. He did. Dang. Yeah. I'm not a best. I'm not a Chris Christofferson guy, I have to admit.

You're a big whistler guy, though, right? It's the character he plays in Blade. Blade's assistant. Oh. Oh, right. Yeah. Oh, shit. You got to go get those.

Vampires. For a lady, I was like, Isfkin asking me if I like Whistling? Well, or like the, like Whistler's mother

of the painting? Oh, whoa. Oh, this is, it just got 100% jauntier in this room. I'll say I like whistling, which is the verb I used for watching Blade movies.

Right. I'm going to have a, is he in Trinity? Is he in the third one? He is, but he dies for the second time, I want to say. Rip.

Because he dies in the first one, the second one, he's back alive and they don't explain it. The third one, they kill him for good. But then Whistler's daughter shows. up.

Whistler's daughter is Jessica Beal. Right. Whenever I have a daughter, I hope she looks like. Jessica Beal from 7th heaven. Right. And then Planet of the Apes.

Uh, Estella of the Apes. Parenthetical 2001. Sure. Estella Warren is his daughter. She's my daughter. I'm a human.

I hope these apes don't kill me. Damn apes. You can make the checkout to it's K-R-I-S. We can't do our favorite bit on that movie because it's too early, but the idea that you can see the actor doing direct deposit on their phone on camera?

Yep. Chris Christofferson, the handsome boy is here. What a good looking guy? The handsome boy is the dick name? He's a man, David. Yeah. I think calling him a boy is immediately offensive. There is a boy in this movie who is distinctly a boy, so you got to set Chris.

Chris. Christopherson, the young handsome new boy is. here. The rancher. I think Christopherson is as much of a man as anyone has ever been. That is an adult. He's an adult man. And the boy in this movie has the foulest mouth he's ever heard.

That's a brutal thing coming from Chris Christopherson. Yeah, you imagine. Foulest mouth I've ever heard. Right. You imagine Chris has probably met a couple saucy fellas over the years. Spending all that time on the ranch, you know? You're not talking to enough people and not used to it. I just think it's funny that this movie was sold as a second chance rom-com.

and then spawned a nine-season workplace sitcom. And you watch it and you're like, it's just like a pretty tender, small character study about a sad woman. But the minute that you start with the Mel's Diner sequence, you're like, oh, I would spend nine seasons here. It makes perfect sense. It emerges fully formed as the setting for a show that you would watch.

If you showed someone the first five minutes of this movie, so the crazy prologue, right, and maybe just a couple minutes of her with a husband, she doesn't really like that much. And you were like, now hit pause. Now, what if I told you this turned into a hit sitcom? You'd be like, what part of it turned it to it? But 100 plus episodes and a spin-off.

But if you show someone to lack the last half of the movie, they would be like, oh, sure, I can see it. Ben looks befuddled. Producer Ben looks befuddled. There was a wildly successful sitcom that ran for nearly a decade called Alice's Restaurant that was based on this movie that was a workplace diner sitcom. It was just called Alice. It was just called Alice's restaurant. Oh, really? Yeah.

Why don't I think it was called Alice's restaurant is a play, right? No, it's the. Woody Guthrie's son. Oh, Arloved Guthrie. Yes. Sorry. I knew I was getting confused. It was just called Alice. It was the longest running

sitcom starring a woman until Roseanne. It ran for nine seasons. Linda Lavin, the great Linda Lavin. And I would say it was, I mean, yeah, it was very successful. Like, it spent a good half of its time on the air being like a top 10 show. And here's what's crazy. Diane Ladd in this movie plays Flow. Right?

A different actress plays Flo on the sitcom. Everyone is different. different except for one person. Vic Tayback. Yes. The cook is the same actor, right? But everyone else is different because it was, you know, you're a movie actor. You don't go down to TV.

The show is so successful, they spin off flow into her own show. And then to replace flow in the dynamic, they hire Diane Ladd to play a new waitress. That's how big the show was. But at first she's like, I'm not doing a sitcom of the movie I was in. And then five years later, she was like, I would gladly join the cast. I'd love to. And in fact, where can I sign on that? But it's just like, what if it's just this fun diner minus any abusive relationships?

Have you guys ever watched Alice? I thought about doing it for this and I didn't. I never have. I know Kiss My Grits. Uh-huh. Which is the catchphrase. Which Diana doesn't say in the movie, right? She's talking about grits.

She's talking about grits. They get close. She's not plenty of like fun, colorful language. That was, you know, Polly Holiday on this show. Okay. So we did this do with these grits. Should I hug them? Should I gently caress them?

David was just telling us to kiss morning grits. He was telling us to kiss morning grits. Even in grits also, I mean, if you go to Waffle House, it's open 24 hours, you can have grits any time a day. What's your Waffle House order? Oh, Scattered Smotherton and Covered. Scattered Smothered and Covered, also the name of a hooty and the blowfish album. I'm well where I owned it on CD. Why did that wear my hooty the blowfish shirt that I recently found in my parents house?

You know what? Google.com hooty and the blowfish shirt. Alex Frost Perry is rubbing his hands together right now at this reveal. I don't even know what he's going to do with this, but he's going to do. He's going to bully me somehow. I lived in Britain where Hootie and the Blowfish, much like sort of Matchbox 20, Dave Matthews band,

some of these like American bands. All nighted. No, it's just one of those things completely failed to translate. You know, they were brought over as like, this is one of the hottest bands in America right now. Their album just went like double diamonded and Britain was like, I think we're okay. Is this like how we don't get Robbie Williams?

Like it just never landed here. There's just something that just never made it over. But I was gifted, cracked rearview. when I was 10 years old and I gave it a spin on the old disc man. Southern frat rock not translating does make sense to me. The whole thing with Hootin' The Blowfish and I've done this rant before is like, oh yeah, is that Darius Rucker's voice is incredible. Like that's the thing where you listen to it, you're like, he fucking rocks.

And now he's become a massive solo country. Right. And then he had his country career and you're kind of like, God bless him. Because, you know, anytime you listen to Hootie and the Blowfish, you're like, all of this is pretty ordinary sounding except who the, who do you? Who do you be? I feel so bad for him. He's so good. I know his name's not hooty. But that's the thing. It's the blondeie problem. He could never come out from under being hooty.

If you guys ever so as I've talked about. And of course the Jerry McGuire gag. Yes. No, I am not hooty. As people who have listened to the show before, no, I grew up in South Carolina. I don't live there now. But so if you drive into South Carolina from Charlotte, there's a like a visitor's area there. And there is a video like a South Carolina tourism video that Darius Rucker made. Wow. He is the star of it. It's like, hey, welcome to my state. I love it here. Yeah. If he wanted to run for Reverend or South Carolina. He would win. Darius Rucker.

Hootty? Yeah. But you just have to be hooty. So well. He is, he is like a treasure. So he is doing just fine. You know, I agree. The man's a treasure.

Let's give him treasure status. I'm so glad I got us here. Put him in the trunk. Yeah. He's treasure. It is funny to imagine, put him in the truck. He's treasure! It's funny to imagine he could run, probably win.

Sure. With the name Darius Rucker on the ballot. Just going, oh, love America. I can't do his voice. Second he won, everyone would be like, well, Governor Hootie. Governor Hootie. It didn't matter. He'd probably be fine with it.

He'd just have to accept it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not liking any of their merch. Cootty and the Blowfish, you're thinking about buying something? I just thought. I had a thought, but I'm not a... The shirt I have is from the 1995 tour that I went to is my first ever concert,

and it's, uh, it has, they don't look like you on the back. If you go on eBay, it's on there. They have the, um, there's the Friends episode that's about, One of the very few Friends episode that tried to touch on, like, sort of matters of, like, class and money. Okay. Usually friends didn't really touch this stuff, and it's like, oh, they all live in giant apartments and, like, don't worry about it.

This is the one that Mike Lee guest directed. Exactly. It's the only one that acknowledge is that three of the friends are kind of, like, make good money and three don't. And it's about that. And a hooty and the Blowfish concert is... Let's break this down. Do you remember who the three...

Ross makes good money. Ross's... Ross. Monica makes good money. Chandler and Monica. Yeah. are the, like, quote unquote, richer. And then, like, Joey, Phoebe and Rachel are the... But it might be Rachel is...

I can't remember where it isn't. Because eventually Rachel gets the fashion job. But she doesn't always. Ritchell's what comes from money? Yes, but of course she has to cut up all her credit cards. Right. Because she didn't marry the dentist. But Monica and Ross come from money, too.

They all grew up in the same, like, rich town, right? They're coded as, like, suburban... Sure. Like, you know, like, they're fine or whatever. But it's sort of just like, it's saying, like, you know, like, Ross, I think it might be... But it's like, yeah, Ross, these guys have white collar jobs. They make money, blah, and like, Joey, he's a struggling actor.

Phoebe, Lord knows how she's bringing the rent together. She does Smelly Cat. Like, what is Phoebe's job, right? You know? And the crucial thing is that they, the rich ones get to go to a hooty and the blowfish concert. Wow. And it's like one of the things where it's like, no grander experience than seeing Hootie and his blowfish. David, I think I found the right piece of Hooty March for you.

I just texted it to you. it along to me. I think you would rock the shit out of this. And Ben, as someone into fashion, I want your advice. Okay. I just think. Oh, boy. Yeah, I can't see it from you.

I'm going to show it to you. All right. Yeah, it's not too handsome. On one side, it says the group therapy tour. Okay. And I don't know. There's this kind of tie-dye logo. Oh, it's a little American flag.

Cuty and the blowfish. I cannot see Sims wear it. Sims would rock the shit out of this. I'm not a huge bucket hat guy. Yeah. I'm not a huge bucket hat. They're back. You didn't hear their back? They're always, you know, threatening.

Wait a second, David. You said you're not a huge bucket act guy? But did you know that this one has an adjustable drawstring attached and the sizes run small? Thank God. Just in case I need it to especially hug the old noggin. Yes. I can't imagine a hat with the drawstring. You could get it. You got to get it.

A going home candle. Is your, oh, you're on like the hooty website? Is your shirt like this? No. Okay. That's not great for a. an audio medium. I'm just trying to see what vintage era.

Or is it like, does it look like this? Like, you know, the crack for your view. Nope, it's not even that one. Okay, all right. We're hunting. This one is a hundred bucks on eBay. It's a tour shirt from like 95. Like, you know, it's like, how many people go?

Yeah, right. The one I found in my parents' house was from 99, a very underappreciated tour. And I was like, should I just sell this thing and send my kids to college? It was not worth quite that much. I'm thinking on to it. Remember all that concern?

that when the year 2000 hit Hootie and the Blowfish were going to go to that back down to zero, that they were going to crash. We thought we were going to lose them. Yeah, that's why I saw them on tour in 1999, obviously. Y2H. Man, people tuned in. They hit play on their little pod catcher going, oh, Alice doesn't live here anymore with Katie Rich. I'm blank check.

We love it. Definitely a 10-minute hooty run kicking this one off, right? People are disappointed only because they were certain it was. is going to open with 10 minutes of Becker. Oh, no. Beckers done. What were you going to say? I like to think I bring less chaos to this podcast than your average guest.

Like I try to- But then I just started with the ho-y-thes. You invite a lot of tangents because you and I and you and Griffin. We have plenty to talk about. And we have kind of shared brain waves about kind of like... Reference points. Right. The sort of entertainment weekly era of being a teen who loves movies and all.

I don't know. I just feel like we got a lot of roads. we can go down. Well, get ready. Let's go down some roads. And you know, Hootie's saying about those roads in his song, I wish I could remember. I was like, if only I could make a lot of detailed hoody and the blowfisher references,

which I don't know that I can't. I texted you the shirt that I. So you can now see it. It is the exact shirt. I did buy this one off eBay. Now have two hooty shirts. And this is the one that I got at the tour in 1995. God bless.

Wait, so you bought a shirt on who? Oh, yeah. Last summer, around my birthday, I was like, you know what I'm giving myself? Is a hooty and a blowfish shirt for my birthday. This is why we're palsy. Oh, this shirt is pretty fresh. It's green and blue. And hang on, Griffin, I got to text it to you too.

Please, I guess. I got to be a little drop-down menu on this and hit and buy it now. Yes. All right, I'm texting it to Ben also. So now everyone loves it when we text each other on the microphone. There you go. There you go. How you punish me.

I remember that one. David, you have the voice of an ear. I've got the voice of a hooty. Oh, my God. I'm a terrible singer. Not based on that. Well, I'll leave it there then. I'll stand and end on a high.

What was running from an angel? What was the only want to be with you? That was the one that people were basically like, this band needs to be legally, like, disbarred from music. The Miami Dolphins were in that music video. Because it was just like fucking, you know, MTV played it like four billion times a day. MTV was like, wait, there's a rootsy rock band with a black guy.

Like, this checks all her boxes, fucking blanket the airway. like, we gotta get this guy everywhere. Maybe we've cut that out. I should have worn it. It's a good shirt. I just bought it. All right. It's going to be,

we link it in the show notes so everybody can go, we're going to write out all the eBay stores of these hooty shirts. Great. It's very funny. The Alice doesn't live here anymore,

or the Alice sitcom Wikipedia, has a section of differences between the film and television series. And it's like a various. Harvey Kitell, not included. That's the thing. It's all stuff like Alice's maiden name was Graham television series.

Alice's maiden name was Spivak. And you're like, film, sad, sitcom doesn't touch dark stuff. Like, that's what they're not saying. They're into like very granular details. Did you go through the guest stars of who was on this? What's crazy. This is one of those sitcoms. It was a hot show.

But celebrities would appear. He's something. Celebrities would appear as themselves. Joel Gray. as like customers. George Burns goes like, how much for a tuna mill? It is set in Arizona.

Like, it's still like, it's not like they're like, let's move to a diner in Hollywood or whatever, but people are just passing on through, I guess. It's a funny thing because like, it was a hit show,

but you can tell by its kind of lack of Emmy Noms that it was never taken very seriously. Like, Lavin got a grand total of one nom. And she's the legend. She's a legend. Recently passed. Yeah, recently fast. She's fucking, of course, she's Seth Cohen's grandma on the O.C.

And that was her only ever, uh, eminom which is rude. Rude to Laban. She and Chris Christopherson both past, uh, 2024. Yeah, I killed them. But David. Sorry. I told you not to do that. Just for the record.

They asked, it was kind of like a weird kind of like. I know, but I said, why you? That's what I said. You just don't need to meddle in their business. No, so Chris Christopherson died at the grand old age of 86. And I feel like Linda Laval also lived a very long time. She Linda Lavin's a very long time. 87, yeah.

At the time we're recording this, Ellen Burstyn, 93, still working. I will say about Lavin, like, I don't look at Ellen Burstyn and go like, Linden to Lavin's a TV version. It's a totally different type of character. There's also a crazy thing is that Ellen Burston later does a sitcom in the 80s, the Ellen Burston show. Was it good? That was a fucking riot.

I think it was just like a family sitcom, but that's another person where I don't go, like, obviously let's get her on a multi-camp. You know, I think it was one of those things where it's like, if you're someone like Ellen Burstyn where it's like, you are a tremendous actress, you're an Oscar winner, and you've been in huge movies like The Exorcist. But you're never going to be treated like a movie star by Hollywood because it's a sexist industry and you're a little older

and you're more of like a great actor than you are. And I think of always prefer theater and love teaching and maybe just wanted the consistent. And then like the call just comes along like, hey, do you want the consistent work and paycheck? One of these network shows, right? She only did it. It only aired.

13 episodes. Megan Malali was her daughter. Elaine Stritch was also on it. I think Elaine Stritch played her mom. No, played her mom. Seven year age difference. Yes. Her 80s are a lot of movies I've never heard of.

Just going through her credit. It's interesting because Ellen Burson is a Hall of Famer, right? She's a legend. There's no question. I think she's one of the best screen actors. I mean, best actors period. She told you to shut the fuck up that one time. That's not what she said.

And you know that's not what she said. She said trice silent. Correct. And you got to give credit. It's actually way better than her telling him to shut the fuck on. That's why it needs to be correct. It's no better. Nothing better.

I think she's one of the greatest actors of all time. But she no doubt has, as Katie's saying, when you look at her filmography, like, just a bunch of stuff where you're like, what on earth is that? What's what happens to women who are the stars of their movies? What are you going to do with them? But then also two additional Oscar nominations in the 80s. Like we're saying like, well, that's a weird decade for her. So what were her dying young? Did she go?

Or no, resurrection in 1980. That's 80. Yeah. And then I guess, same time next year. is 78. Did she get nominated for that? Yes, she did. Like, she got a bunch of Oscar nombs

and she won one. Well, she's in twice in a lifetime, the movie that Amy Madigan got her nomination for, which I had never heard of until this Amy Madigan run. But I remember when she got her, you know, nomination for Requiem for a Dream. It was that classic Oscar thing of, like, and where have you been?

And she's like, I've been here. I've been here. You're so good in the movie where you played a crazy drug addict. And she's like, okay, well, you know, I've been in other stuff too. I do think that led to a then kind of elder statesman. She's now a legendary, immediate instant gravitas. Great actor. We stand.

And, you know, today we discuss on a podcast that Griffin's about to introduce the film that won her an Oscar. Yes, which unfortunately, in my opinion, steals the Oscar for what might be the greatest screen performance of all time. Oh, well, then we can. Oh, is it a, is it a Gina Rollins for Rollins? Woman Under the Influences this year. And there's a famous story. Obviously, that's a fucking great performance. That Ellen Burstyn wins.

And Martinster says he goes up to Cassavetti's and Rollins at the Oscars, like near crying. And he's like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't make this fucking thing. Because this one also feels really Cassavetti's inspired. Sure. I mean, it's Marty.

We'll talk about it. It's in the research, I'm sure. Yeah. Well, and like, this is also among the great actress performances. Like, I think she's incredible in this movie. It's phenomenal. She's amazing. I would have given her the Oscar for one of the two previous nominations.

For like the Exorcist. But this is a fascinating ripple effect. I think she's amazing in Last Picture Show. I obviously love the Cloris Leachman win. But if I had a ballot for 72, I would pick Burstyn. Well, let me now look, while I pull up some Oscar pages so we can relitigate this for a second. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I am Griffin.

I'm David. We're about to relitigate some Oscars, but not as much as we will in next week's episode. This is a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success, early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby. Sometimes they do a gig for hire to prove that they can do that they're versatile. A lack of limitations. And it ends up being a bit of a guarantor because it wins a beloved actor. Makes some money. It makes a money. It makes a money. It makes a money. It makes a money. It's successful.

you can tell who has good teams by who gets baked into deals like that. Because there are people who just cash checks forever. I mean, this is the MASH story that I love, is that Robert Altman had no stake in MASH. He had no upside from the film's box office success because they didn't want to hire him, that he took DGA minimum and waived any participation. It also meant he waived any participation in ancillary things

that would go on later. his son, who was kind of a burnout, and he wanted his kids to work on the movie, he was like, can you write a song for the dentist? His son writes suicide is painless, gets paid every time any episode of MASH airs anywhere in the world. And he, like, hated his son for that.

Oh, okay, that's less good. I thought he'd be proud of him. I don't think so. Okay. I don't think so. All that we get together. What's our... This is a mini-series on the films of Martin Scorsese.

It is called Podcast Fellas. That's right. Wow. This is my first time hearing this. I looked to you. I wanted to see your response. You accepted it. Such a short list of options you had, too.

Like, does not a lot of titles. The podless doesn't cast here anymore. That's what we should have called. The pod of, knocking at my cast. Cat. The,

yeah, that one's tough. I'm not saying it was my best one. The pod of Cass Street. There is a C in there. Yeah. Yeah. Pods of new cast.

But no, it's called podcast, fellas, because that's what we are. We're a couple podcast fellas. And sometimes girls. We have a pod lady with us joining us. As we love to say, kind of the first blank check guest ever. It's very important. Yes, very important. It helps codify

the box office game. That's right. Yeah. And also importantly, mother of still record holder youngest guest ever on the show. True. Almost baby charred. Yeah. Are the listeners ready for the age of that baby from the Titanic episode? Because it's important to talking about this movie, too, which is that Charlie's about to turn 10. He's about to turn 10. As when this episode is out, I assume he will have already turned 10 because it's very soon.

When he was on talk, he was baby. He was three months old. Now he's a little man. He's so crazy that he brought a three month. Oh, baby, we're so out of your mind. It's really evidence that none of us knew anything about babies is the fact that I did that. Katie, to remind you because we were trying to remember this on the subway. Your last episode with us was intolerable.

Yes. When I stepped back in the studio, I was like, oh, yes. Now I remember us talking about John's playing. Because we were like, oh, I remember Prince of Tides, and I was like, no, but you've done something since then. I couldn't remember. Yes. Okay. This is also your 10th episode.

No. Really? No. Wait a second. My decade of dreams. Charlie's decade of dreams. Are we counting Titanic as two or one? Counting them as one.

Right. It is a real pen. It's the kill bill question. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. This is your true 10th episode. That's so exciting.

Because Titanic doesn't really count. So congratulations. Wow. Now let's relitigate these Oscars. All right. So her first nomination, as you pointed out, was for the last picture show. She lost to her co-star Cloris Leachman. Now, they're both great on the movie.

They are. I just think Perston's my favorite performance in that film, period. But that was like, she was like brand new. I guess they were all brand new back then. Yeah. The other, I would say big nominee there is Anne Margaret and Colonel Knowledge, which is a great performance. And I'll just say it. And Margaret, kind of a looker.

You've also got Barbara Harris in Who's Hower, Who's Hower, Kellerman and why is he saying those terrible things about me on Ulu Gross Bard film I've never seen but obviously has an iconic title. Incredible title. And then Margaret Layton in the go-between, which is a masterpiece and she's very good, but like, you know, I would say with there it's kind of like, right, pick.

And like with Claris, it's just kind of like, that's her Oscar, man. Like she doesn't, you know, she doesn't have too many more swings at the movie award app, you know, whatever. Okay, so then she loses for the Exorcist to Glenda Jackson. for a touch of class. Now, we respect Linda Jackson.

I've never seen that film. I love her, you know, for women who loves an amazing movie. She had won three years previously. She had, it's a surprising, I think four, but, you know, like, surprising second win for her. And I think the reason she won was it was a bit of a weird year. Like, it's Ellen Burstin and the Exorcist, who's amazing in the Exorcist. He's a mild stretch as a lead. Yeah, I would agree.

She sort of counts, but like she's not really in the back half of the movie, obviously. And she's not the thing you come out of the actresses. She's not. But it's a powerhouse performance. Yeah. It's a little. And she broke her damn tailbone. It's a little like Michael B. Jordan's sinners minus the skill piece of the twins thing, right?

Where you're like, there is such a centering force in this film, which was also the highest grossing film of its year. It was a hit and she's great in it. Yeah. And then you got, wait, wait, is the devil the lead? Well, I would say, like, Linda Blair is the lead. And they put Linda Blair in supporting in that classic, uh, kid thing. But I mean, like, she's the one like, like, she's the one like. like the movie's happening to her.

Everyone else is a little bit in and out. I think person's the lead. I think it's fine. I accept it okay. But I think it might have heard her for a win. Yeah, possibly. And then you got Marsha Mason, the great Marsha Mason in Cinderella Liberty.

The James Con movie, Mark Redel movie. I've never seen it. We got Barbara Streisand in the way we were. We stand. Yeah. Yeah. We stand. Sure.

I think that movie is a little silly. It's silly, but I think that's an excellent movie star performance. Yes, I agree. And then you've got Joanne Woodward in Summer Wishes, Winter, Dream. I've never seen that one. Not a movie I have seen. Yeah. No, this is a lot. That's why you're like, maybe we could sneak it over to Alan. It is astounding to go through these and realize how rarely the best actress nominees

were from Best Pictures. Oh, yeah. When you get a classic thing. The 1950s. Yeah. It's a little better now with the 10 noms, you know, or whatever. But I bet you even now if we didn't have the 10 noms, it would remain a bit of a ghetto. Oh, definitely. There are so many movies that do not exist outside of one lead actress nomination for a movie star. Is the Exorcist getting the horror snobbery with this too? Yeah, of course. Because the actresses is obviously

a big breakthrough. And it did win two Oscars. Yeah. But it was, yeah, it was the noms were the reward a little bit of kind of like, well, you know, you, it won't screenplay. Now, there's actually not a ton of peepee in the Exorcist's song. I didn't say most peevee. I said best pee pee pee. It's notable. I thought the category was just best goo. I mean, it's, well, no, see, it was like the best score

musical comedy drama thing. Most years it's best goo. This is one of those years where they split it into best vomit and best peeve. There's just too much to choose from. And then Exorcist winning both made them think maybe let's make it one category again. It won best adapted screenplay and best sound.

And you're like, how did it lose? It was a hit ball. It's like it lost to the sting, which was just also a phenomenal. Oh, so right. They were two of the 10 highest grossing movies ever. Yeah, they were just both movies that had like played for a billion years. I mean, it's it's an insane five.

It's the sting, The Exorcist, and American Graffiti. So three just like, critically acclaimed powerhouse blockbuster out of nowhere movies and out of nowhere in different ways. Three of the most profitable movies of all time. People are going to like this. It's like people are going to love it.

Exorcists, obviously. And then the other two nominees are a touch of class, which they really went for the kind of like British comedy back. They love to sneak those in. Sure. And then. Ingmar Bergman's cries and whispers. They loved Bergman.

They gave him proper respect. Well, he was at his, right, they loved him in the final favors of his career. They would, they would roll out the carpet for him. And I assume he would not attend. I don't actually know, but have a feeling he didn't really show up to a lot of those ceremonies. Or he was a party animal.

Yeah, maybe he was there being like, I love this show being hosted by Bert Reynolds, Diana Ross, John Houston, and David Niven? Is that the one where there's the streak or Niven goes like, he's got a tiny dick? That's the dream team. Those four people. We always want to see them together.

The big four. It's just like whenever I see Diana Ross, I'm like, where's John Houston? Her counterpart. You look naked without David Niven by your side. That is so funny that it's like... Oh, no, this is the year before Chinatown. So we're not in John Houston and that mode. Correct.

Chinatown is the year after. So you're like director first and foremost, menacing character actor secondly, right? But before his most notable film role. But he has... Third, the greatest ape. MC. Yes, third MC, then like the biggest pop star. And a defeat British man.

And then who's the fourth again? Bur Reynolds. Burr-Rennels. You're like, hi. I'm from Hollywood. He's heard of me. Yeah. Chewing gum on stage, presumably.

When you, if you think about a world where Ellen Burson never wins an Oscar, then you're like, okay, well, then maybe did she win for Requiem? Does she win for Requiem as a makeup? But it's the swankier, right? No, it's the Julia Roberts year. And that was just a tough train to stop. Nor should it. No, you don't take that away.

I agree. Would you both agree with the idea that she probably came in second? Ellen Burstyn? I remember that being a bit of a thing because Ellen Burstyn hadn't accepted her own award of wouldn't it be nice for her to give a speech that year. She doesn't accept for the else. I will say, whenever anyone trots out that argument, I'm like, we're splitting hairs. Absolutely. Come on.

She won. but she didn't say a thing. She didn't get to give a speech. I'm like, okay. I mean, Laura Linney was the critic fave that year, but I could see the argument for Ellen Burstyn was made. I don't feel like back then,

critic faves didn't get you as far at the Oscars. Totally. That was a real nomination is the win. Of course it was. Enjoy your Saturday at the Spirit 10. I can tell you that best actress musical or comedy that year was the not Oscar nominated Renéza Lugger for Nurse Betty. Oh, yeah. Yes. But that there's the only overlap there was Juliet de

Binosh was nominated for Chocolat. Yeah, are we underestimating the Chocolat? This movie is so funny. They had Chocolat fever back then. The chocolate makes them honey! I did watch Chocolat for the first time, like, in the last five years, and it does kind of fucking rule. It's still terrible.

One of those things where if you remove any, like, what did it get, what did it steal nominations from? And you just watch it as its own thing. It is delightful. I mean, it's, I think I made this joke possibly. But Alfred Molina plays Snidele. Whiplash even more than the time he literally played Snydley. He shows up with a mustache and his neck. Where's all these

chocolate? Because he's Lithgow and Flash dance, right? I mean, footlers. Like Lithgow's like, the town has to band dancing. Millian is just like, no, chocolate! I ban it from these walls. So thin and so long. It's making women talk back to their husbands. And he plays such a sniveling little fuck with a cape. It's amazing. I forgot how he has a cape. Yeah. David. Yes.

I got myself into a real pickle. Uh-oh. I thought it'd be funny to put on some Groucho Marx glasses. Uh-huh. Very, very funny. Very funny. Classic. I've been stuck wearing them for five years because it's such a hassle to replace your glasses that once I made that commitment.

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plus free shipping on all U.S. orders over $65. The style sell out, so don't sit on it. That's ZE NNN.com slash podcast promo code, podcast 15. Alice doesn't live here anymore. Yes. Is that the movie you're here to talk about? Are you trying to tell me something about where Alice is? Alice doesn't live here anymore

is at 1974 American romantic comedy drama film according to Wikipedia I guess that's what I'd call it a drama I call it a drama It's a sort of right a light Or you know quiet drama Directed by Martin Scorsese Written by Robert Getchel

Who has quite a career I want to do a little sidebar Goes on to write Bound for Glory and you know Well that makes sense you're like Oh right's very very grounded Although he's one of four, I will say, credited screenwriters on Mommy Dearest. So I guess that's not all on him.

Then he made the Patsy Klein by a Pick Sweet Dreams with Jessica Lang. He wrote that. He wrote a Bet Midler movie called Stella. I don't really know that. That's a Stella Dallas remake. Oh, fuck, it is. Wow. This is like genuinely a fascinating career.

He got points on the Alice sitcom for creating the characters. Yeah, you got it. If you're the writer, you're going to get points. But then he said he did okay, but come on. He writes point of no. return, the La Femniquita remake. Right, yeah, yeah. And then he does this boy's life and the client. Yeah.

Yeah, he was a, you know, he was a work, work guy. We call him a work guy. He's a work guy. Yes. The film, yeah, was a 1974 Christmas release that got good reviews, made money, won an Oscar, was

a solid notch in Scorsese's career. I feel is often, obviously, under-discust. It's very recently getting a Criterion disc. I believe Marie. has gotten her hands on it today and is delivering it to the office tomorrow. One day late for me to have watched the Splashy Criterion Disc. Not Marie's fault. We're in fact getting it early.

Yeah. But was hoping it would time out better. But yes, it has only been on DVD for the last 15-20. I rented it on the old iTunes. It looked all right. The tunes for the eyes. It looked all right. Yes.

And it's a film we should discuss. And with us is, have we introduced Katie Rich? Yeah. Ten time guests. Yeah. Katie Rich, who I think. I think of you as a fairly, like you discovered this movie back when you did the Scorsese screendress. Yeah.

I didn't want to come on here and promote someone else's podcast. Oh, please go ahead. Do it. But no, I did screen dress with the Scorsese group rankings. So I was in charge of the middle 10. Yeah, it seemed like quite a stressful approach. A very chill podcast. Nothing stressful has ever happened on that show.

Not a lot of work. This one was especially chaotic. Emily St. James, a friend of us and of the show, was on the 30 to 21 group. Right. Didn't she fuck everything up by drafting something last or whatever? It was a group effort. fucking everything up, but just like chaos reigned on that. Like, they didn't want to deal with

the Dylan Docs, so they left us with like No Direction Home Bob Dylan in the middle 10. We were like, I don't kind of get, or like, they left us. They left us. With who's that knocking at my door, which I don't know if you guys have done that episode already. It's already aired right now. It's a perfectly fine movie. It belongs in the bottom 10.

I would put it down. Well, but that's what I don't understand about this approach of like they get to choose. It's making a group project. Well, it's, it leans into the chaos. Wait, but now I'm, now I'm, looking, I mean, this podcast, I will confess. Well, there's just, oh, there's like vetoes.

Oh, the Patreon members got to veto things. Yeah, I don't think that affected what we did. Someone was sure you did. You had the Irishman 29th? That wasn't me. They did. Bring this up with your friend, Emily, St. James, not me. Dead last and what was number one?

Dead last was shine a light, which like, sure. But it looks like someone tried to put. Fine. I mean, but again, it doesn't count. Like, I mean, what are our parameters here? It's maybe even 30. I think they brought. Shina Light and a Rolling Thunder review,

which I don't think was a theatrical thing. That was a Netflix thing, which is actually kind of fun. As a lover of rules, it's stressing. I was not... Smiling and throwing his thumbs up. But no, it looks like someone tried to put the Departed last. Yes, that was their real chaos.

It was trolling. I think we wound up putting the departed in our middle 10, which I would put it in my top 10, honestly. You're wondering why someone tried to put the departed last. You must have missed that Frank Costello was a guest on that episode. I smell a rat on this podcast. I think they did Asia Venice census number one. I wasn't on that one either.

We were in. They do have it number one and they have Goodfellas two taxi driver three. I mean like... Age of age is number one. It's a little too chaotic, guys. This is a little much. I'm... I tried to make it less chaotic.

My big accomplishment... But it looks like their veto system really messes with stuff because then it's like stuff will get bumped up. There's a lot of rules, a lot of... Like, we wanted to putting Wolf of Wall Street in our middle 10 because our pal Joe Reed is not a fan of it. And I didn't have the ability to veto it. You had used your veto. I would put Wolfel Wall Street in my top 10. But the thing I'm really proud of from our group is that we left Alice for the top 10.

Like we said, we're not drafting Alice. You guys can have it in there because I think it's in my top 10. That's totally fine and it's a great movie. But Cape Fear is number 10. I just don't know about this. No, what's going on? And it feels like because you guys left dishes,

it's weird that there's like movies that vaulted up the list because the prior guys just didn't want to talk about. Exquisite corpse thing where you're like, oh, I guess who's that knocking at my door is number 19. You did the Pixar one? I feel like you had like an aneurysm doing that episode. I said this respectfully to the fine folks at the screen drafts podcast. They have asked you to come on and I've been like, I've heard your episodes of four hour long. I won't be doing it. I know.

You would just, you die. Right. I did it once with JD and we did Jim Henson movies and we had a wonderful time. And your friends. And we were in sync and we were like the fucking Bash brothers. Yeah, you got to do it with your friends. Right. And it was, it was contained.

Right. And then they were like, do you want to do a Pixar? Mega Draft, it's every Pixar movie, which at that point maybe was 21 or 22. And I believe it took six hours. Everyone else was on the West Coast. I finished the episode and the garbage trucks were coming to collect. The sun was rising.

This was deep lockdown. And I say this, I say this kindly. I don't blame anyone involved in this episode. This is just what it was. It was the worst day I had in the pandemic. I remember you. And that's the most damning thing I could say about any 20s. 24-hour period.

Yeah. Yeah. That's tough. I couldn't handle it. So it's exhausting every time I have done that. And then at the end of it, I say, wow,

but I watched every Martin Scorsese movie. That's a nice part. I mean, you guys are doing the same thing. That part of it paid off so much for me because I still think about it all the time. We have a podcast that gives us an excuse to do the same thing on a more manageable schedule. Although you do make some long episodes.

We do. Don't know if anyone's heard about that. But I get stressed out even when like our friends at the Big Pick are doing drafts and they're like, I have to watch 80 things. Yeah. To prep for one episode. Yeah.

You know, our Hall of Fains. We did the big pick Oscar changing things like we were just doing. And figuring out how to prep for that and like you can't watch everything. But knowing what you need to pay attention to, it is when you have that wide of field, it gets really crazy. But that's the thing you're just sort of like, well, what? I don't need to watch summer wishes, winter dreams or whatever. I'm sure that's some bullshit. And then Chris Ryan shows up being like, guess what?

I have a hot show and what ever takes. Yes. What's that noise? Oh, it's the Dostier cracking open? Creak! Oh, Ben. You are on it today. Good job.

And Ben's doing great. He's guarding against my mental health. Sometime during the protracted and difficult production of William Freakins' 1973 classic The Exorcist. P.P. Fama. Which, as you may or may not know, as with many of Freedkin film, was a bit of a trying shoot. Some personalities of a player?

Yes. There are some wild stories about that film. Yeah, where such as, like, Freakim would just fire a gun without telling anyone to make everyone freak out, like, on camera. And then say, like, action. And then, like, tie a harness around Ellen Burst and just fucking break her tailbone. And, like, the entire set was a refrigerator. And Maxvon Seidow had makeup on, but by the time the movie was over, he just looked like that.

Yeah. So that film is really, really hard, but they make it. And the studio, which is a little studio called Warner Bros. And David's wearing his Warner Bros. shirt. Realizes it might have something special on its hands. And he's pretty impressed with one Ellen Burston. Yes. Basically, John Callie is the in charge of Warner Brothers.

They're looking at dailies of the film, and they basically just, like, call Ellen Burstyn. We want to do a movie. What do you want to do? Exactly. Like, we have a pile of scripts. Take a look. Like, we'd like to be in the Ellen Burstyn business.

Ellen Burstyn, who I think is, like, a woman of taste. Yes. Or, like, you know, a really, a great actor, but also clearly a very intelligent one and a very thoughtful person who, you know, tries to give a shit, right? I don't know. And she's one of the earliest members of the actor's studio,

uh, studies under Lee Strasberg. is like real protector of the flame of the sort of, I don't know, the beauty of acting. She studied on Elise Strasberg when he only had a half inch

of chest hair and it wasn't even white yet. He would sit there all day and just grids his teeth. Try to push it out. Like in Godfather, he actually doesn't die when they shoot him

because the chest hair just catches the bullet. She is a rare American to have the triple crown of acting as it's called. where she has an Emmy, a Tony, and an Oscar. What's her Tony for? Her Tony is for same time next year.

And she has two Emmys, one for an episode, I believe, of Law and Order SVU. The other one, of course, for political animals. Wow. Wow. Which you were on, which I was on. And she told you to Tri-Sy Island. No. You're forgetting.

I was three times in a project with her. It was like, you're like, I've worked with you before and she's like, never heard. Correct. Try Silence was on draft day, which was the third. and final time I worked with Ellen Burgen. She started building interdure contract after that. Except I never worked with her. The conversation was in the makeup trail.

I know, I know, I know. Yeah, yeah. And just in case someone hasn't heard the story. I was talking to Tim Hitmaker Simons in the makeup trailer for draft day. Who's a bit of a chatterbox, let's be honest. We like to talk us, silly boys. We were probably not even talking about Blu-rays. Who knows what we would have been talking about?

Back then. Mr. Show sketches or some shit. And she showed up in the makeup trailer. and I thanked her because at the rap party for not political animals, but possible side effects, a pilot directed by Tim Robbins that wasn't picked up

where she basically played the matriarch of the Sackler family. It was like Succession with Medicine and she was Brian Cocker. I went up to her at the rap party and told her how much I was a fan of her work and how much she meant to me and that I was trying to start

and she recommended me an acting teacher who was very, very important in my own. You said I used this person and I say that to her. And she said, I don't remember being. on that show. If you say so.

She wasn't like, what a moving thing to hear. She didn't say this in a mean way. Right. But she isn't an intense woman. And then I went back to talking and she goes, well, I'm glad that helped you. And then I went back to talking to Tim. And after like 10 minutes, she went Griffin.

And I went yes. And she went, try silence. You didn't even say, why don't you try silence? No, it was try silent. It wasn't an invitation. It was most withering thing anyone has ever said. Tim has described it as witnessing a murder. Like five minutes later, she apologized.

Well, and why not say it's him? He was talking too. Realized it was so devastating that she was like, look, I, look, I was, you were being a little loud. I'm sorry. You might be surprised to hear. And Ellen Burstyn is someone who can command a lot of force without raising her voice. I imagine.

She does it rarely, you know? The entire makeup trailer went silent. Oh, yeah. And Draft Day was a fairly low budget studio movie. They were shooting on sit. They stopped talking. They didn't even know why. Dennis Liering shut up.

It was like six to ten chairs in the makeup trailer. Like everyone was in there. So there's a full line of people all with their own like hair and makeup people. And like 20 people are just stunned silent. And after five minutes, she goes like, I'm sorry. It's just that I use this time to try to run my lines. She said something like that. You're on fucking draft day, Ellen.

Come on. What are your lines? Don't draft that guy. Sonny, I'm your mother. I don't remember what she does in that movie. It plays Kevin Koster's mother, of course. Great. It's just so funny to imagine.

be proud of your drafting. Or not. Yes. Her to imagine her and Dennis Leary like sharing scenes, which I'm sure they do not. The three things I was in that she was in, she played the same role basically in all three. The elusive matriarch slightly domineering. She was very good at it. Josh Lucas's mom, Sigourney Weaver's mom, and then Kevin Costner's mom.

It feels like a wide age range of people's moms. Yeah. But, you know, actors who can cover a lot of ground themselves age-wise. And at that point, Ellen Burstyn just read as old lady. Like, it was just sort of like, this is your classic old lady on screen who isn't trying to look young. You know, she hasn't had like bizarre shit done. She's in her 90s now. Yes.

And she's thriving. She famously, my favorite awards thing with her is that she was nominated for an episode of Big Love that I think she maybe doesn't have a line in. But she was just submitted kind of by mistake because they, like, submitted a whole host of actors from Big Love for guest actors or whatever. And I think voters are just kind of like, Ellen Burstin and Biggsson and Bigger's. I assume she was good. Let's give her the nom. And they had to like apologize for giving her a nomination. That also happened with that TV movie that Bob Balaban directed.

That was, uh, what was it? It's Susan Sarandon and Bray Fines, I want to say. It's like a butler who killed the woman he works for. Wait, is this Mrs. Harris, which I'm just looking up. No, it was Bigelow. Oh, you're saying, oh, no, Mrs. Harris was a big thing. This one is Annette Benning and Ben Kingsley, which is not off of what you were just coming. That's what I'm thinking of.

Yeah. There's like that that movie has like a faux mockumentary style where it will cut to talking heads occasionally. Okay. Ellen Burstyn did a cameo as a favor where they cut to her and she goes like, I never liked her anyway. Oh, maybe that is what I'm thinking. Oh, yeah. Maybe that's. She has one line and it was like an automatic nomination.

And she was just like, this is offensive. You should un-nominate me and nominate someone else. And I believe Entertainment Weekly did a rundown and they were like, look, she makes like 15 choices in her. three seconds. They were like, this is a ridiculous nomination and clearly people didn't watch it, but also this is sort of proof of how good she is. I mean, David and I were talking about the Emmys before coming here. The

Emmys are completely ridiculous in what they nominate. They see the name. Like, Don Cheadle got that nomination for the like 40 seconds. He was in a Marvel show. The Captain America Museum or whatever and being like, pretty good exhibit. I think people see that name. They're scrolling people like, I don't know what this is. I don't know what this is. And they're like,

great, Don Cheadle. I've heard of you. If someone's a movie star and they're in a project that people know is legitimate but didn't watch. They're like, that was like a real thing, right? Yeah. That was an HBO movie. How shitty could it be? Even with like movie stars on TV all the time now, it still has that we're like, oh, Ellen Burstead, it must be.

I mean, if she's in it, it makes it seem legit. Correct. She was nominated for House of Cards. I didn't know she was on House of Cards. Did she play Frank Underwood's mom? Probably. Probably. She was like a good guess.

She plays Elizabeth Hale. Big Love, she played the leader of the cult. Did she not? Yeah. She's like a matriarch or something. Sounds like something Ellen Burson would do. I'm going to move on to the script she was sent. She sent a big pile of scripts.

And she's, look, she's like, it was an education. Every woman in these scripts is either the victim, the understanding wife of some hero out saving the world, or a sex object of some sort. There's no script where the woman was the protagonist. Stories were about men, and women played a role in that man's story. So let's also call out Ellen Burst had, no, thank you.

Three bad marriages that all ended before the time she makes this movie. She knows from dysfunctional marriage. She tried divorce. She tried divorce several times. Neil Burst and her third husband is who she gets her name from. Yes. Was schizophrenic and I think fairly unbalanced.

Her actual name is Edna Giluli. Yes. Which you can see why she didn't use that as a stage name because it doesn't quite trip off the top. So it's early in the women's lib moving as she says, it's the 70s. We're starting to look up and wake up and wake up. look around and she wanted to make a different kind of film. And so she finally reads,

Alice doesn't live here anymore, a script by Bob Getchel. She sends it to John Kelly. He likes it. But it had been optioned by David Suskind. And so he had no deal at his studio, but he had it. On the last possible day,

he picks up his option to block them, rude of him, because he doesn't have a studio. And so her agent calls him, or maybe Tony calls him, you know, someone, her agent calls him. and it's like, Ellen wants to do this movie.

And he's like, I'm doing it with Anne Bancro. And he's like, we have a fucking green light from Warner Brothers. Like, if we can do this, like, you have like an idea of doing something someday. You know, we have a studio, like, who will make this movie. And Suskin said, hmm,

I think we should make this movie with Ellen Burson at Warner Brothers. You know, this is crazy. John Callie then says to Ellen Burson, do you want to direct it? Crazy. That is pretty wild. That is kind of, I don't know, without parallel in this time period. Pretty much.

I mean, like, all the stories. Yes. Like, you know, there's... Her name is Joanne Woodward. No, but it's like, when you think about, like, female directors in the studio system. I mean, how hard Streisand had to fight. Uh-huh.

Yeah. I mean, Lena Vertmuller is getting that first woman best director nomination around the same time. Yeah, I just am wondering if that causes that somehow. Maybe. I mean, I think it might be just truly John Kelly being, like, this is a cheap movie. I want to be in the Ellen Burst in business.

And, you know, you pick the script. It's talent management. We're also still in new Hollywood risk-taking era. And here's someone who kind of represents the new guard of acting styles. Here's someone who's kind of like a female De Niro in terms of like she's locked in some whole different process. Maybe she'd get interesting performances out of other people. So instead she calls up a handsome Italian director by the name of Francis Coppola. and says, you know what you've been?

And he says, why don't you watch a little movie called Mean Streets? It hasn't even come out yet, but I recommend it. And she watches Mean Streets, and Coppola had just seen it and been like, I like this De Niro guy. I think I'll put him in my movie The Godfather Part 1-1. Her quote was, she said, you go look at a movie like Mean Streets. Or, no, that's what Francis said to her. She said, it felt exactly what Alice needed because it was a wonderful script and well-written,

but for my taste it was a little slick. Scripps's a little slick. You know, in a good way. She wanted some grits. And kind of a Doris Day Rock Hudson kind of way, and I wanted something a little bit more gritty. It's smart to just go like, okay, I like the script and the foundation of this.

But if someone deals with it on a superficial level, I think it's not going to work. So how do I get someone who's sort of like, hire a director against type for the film to bring it down? I have a hard time imagining that script. I feel like, I wonder if, like, did he change the script itself? Or is it really just all in style that changes how those feels?

I don't know. Maybe it's three episodes of the film. the sitcom that he retroactively submitted. Or it's the Chris Christofferson rom-com that the poster makes you think it is. But it does make you consider how cool it would be if like either Safty brother did this today. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I wonder if there's an analog because there are some directors who've done stuff like this.

But yeah, like I'd have to think. But love this. She meets with this, as she puts it. Small and nervous little guy. Yeah. That's a good way to describe him. And, you know, he's like, he's excitable and they're talking about it. And she says, you know, it's hard to tell from that film, Mean Streets,

what you know about women. Do you know anything about women? Which is a fair note. Have you met one? And he says, no, but I'd like to learn. Which is pretty cute. Pretty good answer. He said his intelligence beamed through his face, so we went to work together.

Had he started any of his failed marriages by this point? Where are we? Where are we in this story? He's one divorce down. Yeah. I mean, look, it's the classic, like, 60s, you know, he's, yeah, he's not married to Julia Cameron yet. he's divorced from Lorraine, Brennan.

Like the 60s early marriage where it's like, well, we had to live together and our parents would be mad. Right. I wanted to have sex, which of course, I met him when we had three children and bought a house. So he has years of being a bad husband

and still ahead of him at this. Much more to learn about women. He has a revolutionized the field of bad husband. Oh, I assume you guys have talked about Mr. Corsese, the documentary over the course of doing this. We brought up stuff with him. But just the amount of his ex-wives and daughters in that movie here are like, yeah, he was terrible.

We love him, though. Yeah, we're just like, he did. I never saw him. He never was really around. It's just really remarkable how affectionate they are for all the horrible things. Not like horrible, but he was not useful. He was mostly absentee. Yeah.

Right. It's not like, yeah. I would not want to have been married to him as this kind of. The vibe I got, right, because in talking about a movie about bad marriages and such, we don't want to like imply a different kind of bad marriage. Sure. You watch that and it just feels like everyone who married him kind of felt bad for him. Not that they were marrying him at a pity, but they were just like, I was just really worried about him.

Like, everyone talks about him like a little danger, like, fawn that they tried to nurse back to health. And they were like, ultimately, it ran back into the woods. He and Robbie Robertson just stayed up all night for three days. And I said, you go, buddy. Yeah. I just go live your life. I call that the woods. So they get to work.

He's dating Sandy Weintraub at the time. Okay. And she sort of was the one who kind of read the... description across his desk or whatever and said like, this is good. Like, you know, this has interesting characters because I assume he was basically just getting a little like gangster movies, like being sent to him, right? Yes. So it's like he's smart. He's like, I should make something completely different, right? Like, what better way than, you know, then, you know, to avoid being typecast. Alice was a way of trying to find another way. Can I make genre in Hollywood? It was something

like a vehicle, like a Betty Davis vehicle or John Crawford vehicle. I enjoyed those movies like Mr. Skeffington. So this would be a way of embracing the genre. It is so funny that even young 20-something Martin Scorsese is making movies about guys.

Right. Who shoot each other is like, but I am a huge movie nerd and who has seen every single women's picture. Every great director has made a women's picture. Right. I have great respect for Mr.

Skeffington. Well, you do have to assume the script did not include the prologue in this that looks like the Wizard of Oz set on a farm. It's so wild. It's gorgeous.

I mean, you start out with like a fucking like Douglas Stirk opening credit sequence. Yeah, like the silk. rumpled in the background with the titles over and I love it. You feel like you're watching the wrong movie. And obviously, as you just pointed out, very inspired by Mr. John Casavetti's. Which you see a little bit.

Do an actor-driven movie. He has a great relationship with his mom that's like, it's different from this movie, but he has like a chatty, firecracker. Right, informal kind of relationship with his mom. And so he's investing a little bit of that in there. You know, his dad is clearly sterner and more reserved. But his mom is a cut-up. like she's funny

Gatchell's screenplay apparently he wanted to change the third part dealing with the farmer. Okay. That means Chris Christopherson. Get rid of Chris? You can't. I don't know.

It's like the beginning is not quite right and the last sequence is not quite right. They rewrote it together. They weren't satisfied. Then they start doing some improv in New York with Ellen. That's kind of cool. And then they would sort of throw it back to Gatchel.

I don't know. They're just describing rewriting the movie. Who cares? They did a good job. There is an elected like three. and a half hour cut of this movie, then I'm sure is more of an assembly than a proper cut. But this is one of those movies where I would watch kind of any footage they have. I'd watch them all hanging. And I would watch an entire movie set at a diner. But I would say

this is a well-paced movie. It does not need to be long. It is. But I'd be curious. I mean, and that's the difference between him and Cassavetes, where there's like the famous story of him screening husbands and a killing and being like, the audience is enjoying it too much. We're adding an hour into it. Like, Cassavetes was like, if the audience is enjoying it too purely I've done something wrong. And it doesn't feel like this movie is taking easy outs, but you can tell that Scorsese's like, I'm not trying to punish people.

As mentioned earlier, David Susskin once viewed this as an Anbankcraft vehicle. Supposedly at one point Diana Ross was attached. Well, well, which is crazy. I mean, obviously and she was like, well, I'll only do it if David Nibbitt is there. My bow. And obviously, Walter

Houston plays my son. John Houston. Fuck. I think Walter Houston might have died by that. Walter Houston could play the Chef. He's like, there. He's out. Order up. Shirley Maclean in 2005 said she turned it down because she didn't know who Scorsese was. JJ adds in parentheses, that doesn't make perfect sense.

This has to be a false memory. There's no way that's true. But she said in other places that the script was offered to her. I don't think she would have been offered the Scorsese version, but the script obviously had been around. Well, if it was kicking around a studio, like presumably every actress in that interest. She's one of the top of the people you would have offered anything to. Ellen Burson says the biggest regret she has is she didn't take a producer credit

which she should have because she was like, I was the shepherd of the film, I should have been an executive producer, I didn't ask. I demurred, oh, I don't need credit, I'm the star. If I'd been an executive producer, I would have gotten points on that fucking sick.

I would have made that Alice money. Because I do feel like usually it'd be like, oh, well, it's a credit, who cares? And Alice is the one scenario where like, you're telling me this small domestic drama turned into a regular paycheck. Yes. I mean, she made, she did make one of the coolest deals of all time eventually for

for the last exorcists. Do you remember this? It's like they created an acting school or something. They created a scholarship that runs indefinitely. Right. They kept offering her money. They were like, we'll give you a million dollars. Okay, you're going to be in the movie five days. I don't give a shit.

And they're like 10 million dollars, 25% of the gross. And she was just like, here are the actual terms. Scholarship for acting school every year granted full ride in perpetuity. and made them like make a commitment to doing that. Yeah. Which rules. Of course, the only downside is she's in the movie for like two minutes being like, I too was once an exorcist. Ah!

And he gets her eyes gouged out. And you're like, what? The kids get that acting scholarship. Don't need to know that. Well, they make them watch the movie, unfortunately. It's so funny that they were like, we have to have you in the movie. Why? So we can guide your eyes out, two minutes in.

That's definitely a reshoot thing, though, right? It sounded like... No, that movie felt clean to me, Griff. That movie felt nobody touched. The famously bleak thing about that movie is they make the big rights deal like in summer 2020. And they were like, we don't have a script yet, but can we really wait and take the chance of Ellen Burstyn dying? Here we are six years later. Exactly.

So they wrote a couple scenes just to be able to shoot with her in 2020, then didn't finish the script until a year later. Then when they shot the rest of the movie, they were like, huh, the stuff we shot with Burstyn doesn't really fit. So then they re-shot and they were like, what if you don't have eyes? What if I gouged out to just kind of have something shocking happen halfway in the movie? She did not attend the Oscars, as we mentioned. She was busy starring in same time next year on Broadway with Charles Grotto.

Oh, which is what she went to Johnny for. And then we'll get an Oscar nomination. She thought more Gottlieb. Sounds like a guy. I'm not going to look up for that is. Thought she should fly back to Los Angeles to take, you know, to, you know, go to the Oscars. And she was just like, I didn't want to disappoint people.

I didn't, you know, I don't want, no offense to understudies, but like, people are paying to see me and Charles. It happened a lot in the 70s. People just didn't go to the Oscars in the 70s. And they went like, I didn't realize it was a big deal. Yeah. And now, like, when Sean Penn doesn't go, it feels like size. Sean Penn is the first acting winner to not go since Paul Newman won in the 80s.

So we're not actually crazy. Isn't that crazy? We're not counting Anthony Hopkins. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we give him a past. giving him because he was he was asleep in Wales.

Right, right. But last living Oscar winner, non-Anthony Hopkins is 80s. Isn't that nuts? Yeah, that is funny. Yeah. Like,

it's become such a thing. And now, best actor. Oh, Anthony Hopkins and the father. Well, good night. You have to do your

Joaquin fetus impression while doing that being like, oh, yeah. Joker himself. She's like the ultimate prank.

The awkward of the moment him being like, I don't really want to be there. Even Joaquin, the weirdest the weirdest guy in the world is like,

this feels awkward. Even I'm getting the sense that this is awkward. David? What? I've heard of August rush. Okay. But have you heard of August is the perfect time to hit reset before the autumn rush begins? Now August rush was Freddie Highmore?

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and a free bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 in your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's Drinkag1.com slash check. Chris Christoperson. It's just his fifth film. What has he done? Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid. Well, she's phenomenal one. Which is such a cool movie.

Yeah. Have you ever seen that one, Ben? I haven't. I think it has a bit of a vibe you might gel with. The Dylan connection. Dylan's really good news. It's so been on my list for forever. The music is so cool, obviously.

We'll watch it together, Ben. I haven't seen it either. I love a western. You know, he's also in Dennis Hopper's insanely normal, the last movie. That's his first appearance. Right, which was, that title is a threat. Dennis Hopper was like, I'm trying to end movies forever. That movie rules.

That movie is very cool. That's another one you would like. I assume you, have you been enjoying the recent Catherine Lanasa from the Pitt press cycle of, I am haunted by Dennis Hopper's ghost? I interviewed her last year and she does just like, she will drop a Dennis Hopper. It doesn't have to get into it, but just like, you know, everyone just needs to know. That lady. She married him when she was like 19.

I fucking love her. She was saying like, you know, he was the great love of my life. And so he continues to haunt me. Obviously, we got divorced and then he married someone else after me. But when he was dying, they were in the purse. process of getting divorced. So I was the last person he was married to where it ended on good terms. And I'm like,

hence this ghost comes to my house. You also got divorced. What are he talking about? Yeah, but we patched it up. And I'm on the pick. In the afterlife. And now she's married to what's his name for Melrose place? Who she married?

Oh my God. Hang on. Okay. I love her. You can Google this faster than I can. Grant's show. Oh, I love Grant's show. They're married.

Remember when he was on the threesome show or foursome? Swingers. Swingers. Swingtown. It was called Swington. Swingtown. It was one of those. CBS was like,

can we do a show about swingers on CBS? And it's like, well, you got to have nudity and sex in your show and they're like, no. Well, can you have drugs

in your show? Like, not really. It's like, well, why are you making that? It's going to be so risque. In episode six, someone mentions that they saw a butt.

That's what the 2000s were like. They were so jealous of HBO and they'd be like, we want one of those. Yeah. Dennis there is the job where they were like, he's going to say shit

one time. every other episode. We'll give TV guide advance warning that this is one of the episodes he says shit on. Quietly as he exits a room. Ah, shit. Exactly.

He was also in a film called starred in a film called Cisco Pike, which I've never seen, but... Oh, sure. It's like Gene Hackman, Karen Black, Chris Christopherson, Harry, Dean Stanton, and the Warhol Superstar Viva. I mean, like, how bad could that be?

That sounds fun. Maybe a little formless. Who knows? I was going to say that movie was called Quiet, Calm Conversations on the set. Everyone's easy to deal with the movie. Respectful disagreements. The motion picture. And then he's in something called Bloom in Love, a Paul Mazursky movie I've never seen starring George Siegel, where I assume he's got. Like, I feel like he was often kind of the energy beardo guy.

Yes. Right. You know, he's coming in off the bench. He's giving you some sort of hot, cool energy. Viva is Gabby Hoffman's mother. Oh, there you go. Yes. I was trying to remember who it was, but yes.

Sorry, go on. So Scorsese is like meeting him and basically being like, I love Pat Garrett. And Christopherson's like, everyone fucking hated that movie. It's the matter with you. And, you know, they had a great relationship after some early, you know, nervousness or whatever. Christopherson, this is an interesting way Burson puts it. It's like he just couldn't accept that he was an... actor. After every take,

he'd cringe and be like, oh, man, that was dog shit. Like, he just had no like, you know, confidence in his own ability. And I bet you that burst in the Scorsese, you're both kind of like, I don't know, man. Pretty hot. I know if I'm not in Bursom, I'm so annoyed by that being like, dude, get on my level.

No, she loves it. She says he was wonderful. Like, you know, we would be really connected. He was a new voice in America. Like, I mean, you know, how do you not have a crush on this guy, you know? Marty? No, Chris. Chris. Christopherson.

Marty, I feel like you're a little more like, oh, Marty, you're so great. No, Chris Christophon is just one of the most, I feel like, inarguably hot people. He's just the camera loves. He just has unbelievable. Yeah. Alfred Lutter, who plays Little Tommy. They saw

300 kids. So goodness. And Sandy Wynchrob says, hey, Marty, you got to see this guy. He sees this kid. They say, what do you want to be when you grow up? And he says, a stand up. comic. And exactly.

And he's like, let's get him in the room with Alan. And they're like, hey, just, you know, improv or whatever. And they start just kind of like bouncing off each other. And there you go. He's really great. It's a great. It's a great kid performed. How much of their scenes together are improv.

I think a lot. I think a lot of their kind of ratatat is like, you know, back and forth. So perfect. Yes. And you kind of can't script that stuff. And just the way she's kind of like, what? You know, like half the time, like that way you are as a parent where you're like, I'm picking up, I think I'm picking up where you're putting down, but what are you talking about?

This is like the huge thing for me in this, and both the times I've watched it, again, having an almost 10-year-old, is like when you, like, love this kid and you had to put up with him. But like, if he tells you that story one more fucking time, you're going to jump out the window. That joke that he's trying to tell her, which is like crying, asking him to stop telling that joke. He reminds me a lot of myself in that way when you tell me about these things. Yes. Just like, I mean, they're like the dynamic of your kid who you love and is the thing you'll do anything for, but you're like, you're so knowing I cannot listen to you for another moment. I think she is meaner to her kid.

David, you can tell me what you think, then I would be to my shoulders. I would not- I would not kick them out of the car and make them walk the final mile to get home, I would think. Yeah, no. But there are some relatable moments in this movie. I would say there's some 70s like, oh, you'd get a phone call about this these days.

I mean, it's a movie that builds to spanking. It is a movie about how do you. We'll talk about the hitting kids part of it too. Or like Jody Foster, juvenile delinquency. And Jody Foster's- Holy shit, she's amazing. It's unbelievable. Well, I assume we'll get to her in the dossier.

I am about to tell you that Jody Foster shot all her stuff. Two days. Wow. Oh my God. Real pro. What a pro. It was like doing another commercial first. She came in, bang, bang, bang.

Two days. She knew all her stuff. Two days. Two bottles of wine. That was all. And this is a Scorsese. And there's this damn situation with the welfare workers where a woman came over to me and said, stop.

And I was like, what do you mean stop? And they were like, stop. And they were like, stop. She has to go to school. She's like, She's in the grand tradition. Judy Garland. Judy Garland. We're 20 hours a day.

You know, they've got a lot of like actor studios people kind of peppered in the background here. A lot of Ellen Burstyn faves, you know, are filling in the cast. Where were you going to say, Katie? Oh, just where Jordy Foster was and I got on her Wikipedia page. She's like doing Disney stuff, but this is still before anything where she's a star. Obviously, this is how Marty knows her for a taxi driver, which changes her a movie he makes. But she's really only done a couple movies. Right. She's like a TV star, right?

She did the Paper Moon TV show. We love it. Didn't know that existed. She played Addie Prey on that. Am I wrong in thinking that she even replaced Tatum O'Neill in some later version of Bad News Bears? Or am I conflating the two things? I know she was the voice of one of Charlie Chan's children on the Hanna-Barbara Charlie Chan cartoon, which I'm looking up here, has aged perfectly.

I was about to say, sounds like something you'd want to be pushing out right now. It sounds like something that you would know when no one else would know. Yeah, correct. This is a perfect junk in my brain forever. You're conflating. Jody Foster was supposed to be the star of Bad Newsbears. Turned it down to do a little movie called Taxi Driver. There we go.

But now she'd done some Disney movies. She's done a lot of like TV stuff. And Freaky Friday is much later. That's after taxi driver. Like I think right? Like it's like that's the same year as taxi driver. That's nuts. That's not.

What can I tell you? It can do it all. And Bugsy Malone is also the same. year. Wow. All three of those are 70. Wow. But, you know, she'd done the, uh, the, the Tom Sawyer movie.

She's basically like sort of the second lead of that. That's before whatever. You know, she's a punky little kid. Little tomboy. That's her thing. The perfection of her as a queer icon in this movie, like just from the jump of her being like, yeah, this is. It's funny.

This woman had to come out of the Golden Globes 40 years later. It is so funny that it's like this overt in this movie. And then it's just like, quietly. Let's just go back in the club. not really talk about it for a while. They weren't ready. I want to call out Leia Goldani. Goldoni.

Yeah, sure. Who was the female lead in Shadows, the Cassavetti's movie. Oh, yeah. Leila. Layla Goldine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But is a movie about white passing African Americans?

I mean, if you've ever seen that iconic Shadows poster, that's her face. She is incredible in that film. Yes. She was a fully Caucasian woman. The success of that movie, critically... She's Italian, I believe. Yes. Damaged her career.

Right. Because people... It's this insane thing where she was a white person playing a white passing black person who then lost roles because people assumed she was black and couldn't play white. So it just feels like this was kind of a menschie move for Scorsese to throw her a role. And like we said, you know, he's a devotee of Cassavetes. Well, she's in, what, two scenes, like in the very beginning where they're doing like the dress fitting and then the yard sale. She's the one who's with her when she gets the phone call to her.

husband. She, like, that relationship between the two of them is so perfect and real and you know so much about them. So as soon as she gets that phone call and then they say goodbye at the car and like the little boys are rolling their eyes at them and they're so emotional. It's just wonderful. She got a Bafton. Oh, my God.

Well, the Bafters. They loved this. Bannas for Alice Fever. They gave the best picture, right? I think they did. Yeah, the Bafters love this movie. This movie traveled well, I guess. Did they nominate Dary and Ladd also?

Well, the Oscars did. I believe so. Let me double check that. But I think one screenplay picture actress and then it got, yes, it got double noms. Diane Ladd won the BAFTA. Oh my God. And this is, you know, the BAFTA's treated this like a 75

because it didn't make it to Europe till 75. So this is the 1976 BAFTAs. So it's beating. It beat Barry Lyndon Dog Day Afternoon and Jaws, which I might have some notes on that as much as I like this movie. And she wants. one best actress and

Diane won best sporting actress and won best screenplay. Yeah, they fucking went nuts for it. I can only imagine the British viewing audience being like, what's this movie about like an Arizona diner waitress is better than Barry Lyndon? Are we sure?

Jenna Brolin's won the Golden Globe. Uh-huh. Against her. She's pretty good in that their movie. I think it's maybe the best performance ever committed to film. Burston didn't win any of the critics awards. So I think it must have been seen as a slight surprise,

especially considering the Baftas come so much later, because I think basically New York film critics, NBR, they all gave it to Jenna Rowland. Sure. It's a tough call, man. It's a tough call. Who am I giving it to? I guess we'll find out.

Oh, that's right you going. Anybody nominated Alfred Lutter? I indeed gave it to one, Jenna Rollins for a woman under the influence. My other nominees? Sissy SpaceX for Bandon. Wait, why do I have Fade Downway? for Chinatown here.

I don't know. This is a crazy person. Ellen Burstyn. Brigitte Mira for Allie if you read's the soul. Oh, sure. A movie. Anyway, the movie Alice doesn't live here anymore is about a

lady named Alice Hyatt who lives in New Mexico and has a kid whose name is... Tommy? Sounds right. Wanted to be a singer. Dammit, she is a singer.

She's a former singer. Now she's married to a guy called Donald who is a Coca-Cola delivery truck driver played by Billy Green Bush. This guy sucks. Real piece of work. But he sucks in just kind of like a boring shitty way. Yeah. It's not even like a

true kind of like page turning melodrama kind of like, he's the nastiest husband and she casts it. It's just like she's just stuck with this loser. Or not even like Harvey Kitell later where he's got charisma. He's just a fucking loser. Kitell is compellingly awful. Oh my God. Yeah. And it's Kitell too.

So you're kind of like, hmm, I can't stop looking at this guy. We've been talking about this, Katie. It is just so funny that for who's that knock at my door and mean streets, Keitel is Scorsese's analog. It is, and in a way where past those two movies, I would say Scorsese does not have self-insert characters.

You feel him as the character watching the movie and making the movie, but there doesn't feel like there's someone who represents him. The second he stops having those characters, he's like, Harvey, here's the deal. I'll still put you in my movies. You only play the most contemptible people in the world. You play real shit.

Child, pedophile, Judas. Judas, literal Judas. Hey, it's a complex portrayal of Judas, okay? Yes, the name is, name is a bit of a scarlet letter or whatever. But it's funny that in this one, you're like, oh, maybe he plays like a sweet guy. He's a little bit of a little one.

And you're like, he's good looking. Like, I know this guy. Let's see what he does. Bigamist. So, yeah, I mean, Ben, what do you, what did you think of this movie? I haven't even gotten your take yet because I feel like it's kind of a bad movie.

I have never seen it before. No, sure. No, I just mean like the vibe is sort of Ben appropriate. I loved it. Yeah. It's really good. It really reminded me of my mom and our dynamic.

Your mom sounds really cool. And I can see Ben having a bit of a Tommy, you know, a little Ben. A hundred percent. But she, my mom was so funny and silly, but slightly aloof. Like, she was always a little unknowable. So I just, yeah, I really saw a lot of her in this character. Hey, Ben, the actor, Alfred Lutter, who plays Tom. New Jersey legend.

He's from Ridgewood. He graduated from Ridgewood High School. Then he got a Bachelor of Science and Civil Engineering from Stanford. Well, that's not New Jersey, but sure. Well, so, but we can be proud of him. I know. Master of Science degree. He founded Lutter Consulting, a company providing technology strategy.

And he later started a website called Linda.com. What is Linda.com? That's a Wikipedia page. Linda.com became. LinkedIn learning. Wow. It's sort of like online

certification. It was an online learning site that LinkedIn bought. Wow. He was like an early tech guy. Yeah. The original tech man. The original techman they call him.

Yeah. This movie reminding you of your mom, Ben, another thing that feels so important about it to me that it's about like the relationship between a parent and a child in a way that I just don't think

that many movies do it. It's like it's a relationship. There's a push and a pull. It's not about a mother's love. It's not about, like, a kid looking up to their parents. It's, like, actually complicated. And I can't get over how, like, real that feels and how rare it is. Maybe you guys have better examples than I do.

No, I'm thinking as a counterpoint to this, Kramer versus Kramer, which is not a movie I love where people... But it's a very watchable... No, it's a very watchable movie. I don't think it's a bad film. But it's not a movie I deeply care for. And a lot of people credit Hoffman's Oscar win for how good he is with the kid. But that feels a little more like an actor show.

going off how good his chemistry can be with a kid. And that movie also sets him up to be like, you'll never believe how surprisingly good this guy. Like, it's like Big Daddy without the jokes of like, he really gets it together. Yeah. It doesn't feel like a very accurate portrayal. Yeah.

And it's so reductive in sort of the way it treats the Merrill Street character. It's like so plot driven of being like, can he step up to it? Totally. And it's like, oh, he makes good breakfast. What an incredible dad. Yeah. And like in the very beginning of this movie, the husband's being a jerk about something or another.

and she goes over to the son and she's basically like, hey, look, help me out here. You got to get, we got to get around this guy. Like, they are co-conspirators getting through this. And that is so often what, especially as your kids get older and you can be like, look, give me a break here. I'm trying my best. You're trying your best.

Like, it's almost like she's letting him kind of see, like, she's just a person who's trying to figure this out. And again, she's making some choices I wouldn't make. But I love that it makes it, they're not equals, but it makes it a real back and forth, which parent-child things don't do often. Well, let's also call out the inciting incident of this movie, which is. It's hard to get, Kids act on screen like this.

Yeah. Impressive, you know, yeah. Her piece of shit husband dies. They get in a bad fight. Yes. He hits her. It does not seem like this is the first or only time this is happening. He's a loser.

And then a day later, he dies in a meaningless Coca-Cola truck accident. Well, it's meaningful. All that Coke's not going to get delivered. But I'm saying, there's people thirsty out there. You're right. You're right. They need a pep in their stuff. It was a costly death.

Yeah. Didn't you just imagine, like, Little Marty, like, like, staging that accident, like the tableau of like the people hanging out of the car. It's just like there's some blood on the street. It's perfect. Well, you also imagine him being friends with Spielberg and being jealous of like duel and being like, I have one shot to show the aftermath of dual.

You know? They're not letting me stage action sequences yet. Nope. But she's grieving a bad relationship. Yeah. She's experiencing real grief for this and her son is as well. And she tries to take this as an opportunity to uprood her life. Something she's clearly dreamed of doing

but not felt the courage to do. it felt too radical to blow up her life in order to do that, but now her life has been blown up for her. And so much of the weird tension between her and her son is that her son is like grieving the loss of a father who he's starting to realize like maybe sucks. Yeah, yeah. And the kid is just getting into the age

where you start thinking of your parents as people too. He was already feeling that way. Yeah, like he's at the perfect face to see her as a person and to look back at his dad is not just like a hero. Right. He was putting salt in the coffee, which does feel, let's call it out,

very Ben. It feels like a little bad move. Definitely. Yeah. Ben, I was wondering if like something where she's saying like, if you keep your mouth open one more time, I'm going to throw you out, he just like opens his mouth as wide as you can. Is that a little Ben move? Yes, definitely. Like, I'll show you.

The founder of the workaround. You can't slam my mouth shut while you're driving. So what happens? So husband dies. I think it's really well played by her where she's sad because her husband died. Mm-hmm. Plays the emotion quite honestly. But just you just kind of buy that she pretty quickly is kind of like

snapped out of a dream or whatever. Like that she's just kind of like, let's just go. Like there's nothing fucking, there's no reason for us to be here. Like, well, it's the past tense, present tense thing of like, I think of myself as someone who wanted to be a singer and didn't have the courage to follow through. Right. So why can I? And then she just decides like, I am a singer.

I sing. There's nothing keeping me here. Why not reconstruct my life around this dream? And fairly quickly, that scene of her singing at the piano at home where like it's, So the lingers on her singing for a while and you get the kid outside and he's kind of like reframing how he thinks of her. Like it's an interesting venture into his perspective about her talent, which you don't get that much of. And it's, I mean, it's just like really well done. That's one of the early moments where you're like, oh, here's, here's Marty testing it out, figuring out what he can do with the camera.

And the Layla Galdani character reads as her one person support system. Yeah. Just like, this is kind of scary for her to go out. There are no, you know, she, there's the notion of the family home of going back to where she came from. but it doesn't feel like there's a solid base of support from her family extended. Yeah, do we even know who's in Monterey? She talks about it all the time, but like who are they going to? Not really?

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you also have no sense of the kid's life, but he's a kid, I guess. He's just going to make those kids go where you want them to. Essentially, he could be like, I have friends at school. It's like, too bad, baby. We're fucking in the room. We got Johnny Foster and some wine waiting for you. So she gets him to Phoenix, right?

Like, that's where she gets them to, where she starts singing. I mean, this says she finds work as a lounge singer, like in the narrative here. Kind of. I would barely call what she's singing in lounges. Yeah, right. There's, like, a microphone over there if you really want to go over the camera. The griminess of these bars that she's going to, like, bars in the 70s just were not, they didn't seem like fun places to hang out. I had my antenna up the whole time.

I'm like, geez, is someone going to be like a mega creep or whatever? And instead, they're all just kind of like, I don't know. Like, you know. There's the, why don't you turn around moments? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But no one's ever like, oh, yeah, you can have this gig if you come with me over here.

There's no compliance. But this was kind of a style of a bar of a very particular time. And basically, like, kind of don't bug anyone. Like, sing something that'll be nice in the background. But like, yeah. This is like a little value ad on beyond. Yeah. Right.

Right. Like bars with no windows. Like, I remember them being some around when I was a kid, like after this. But, like, you would never, like, women wouldn't go to these bars much like, you wouldn't bring your kids into any of these places. But let's also just call. out the like the velvet opening titles then this like blood

shocking red sound stage completely as you said very like beginning of Wizard of Oz. It felt like the one big idea Marty has right he's like I want to do this I know I don't have a lot of money but like I want to do this one thing right this little girl like practicing this him over and over again it literally says

like Monterey California Alice a young girl yeah yeah and then it's just sort of like her loneliness you only see her parents in like silhouette basically and they're like yelling at her Yeah. You get a sense of why this person didn't have the courage to follow their dreams and has settled in their life. That's what this movie rocked. And she's singing a song about caring and no one cares about her. I mean, he was a good kisser, guys.

Oh, the husband. Give it up for Donald. I think that's his name. Donald. I love when she tells a kid, like, ask me again in a few years and I'll explain it to you. He's like, what are you going to say to him when he's 14? Yeah, that's not a good conversation. That's really just pushing things off. Well, I think she'll say to slightly open your mouth. Instead of like, you know, try to tighten your lips. You're about to eat someone's skull with that kind of pet mouth right now.

This film was shot in Tucson, Arizona, where it's set. Why is it set in Arizona? Why not? Okay. That's a really good answer. Don't really know. I mean, Marty says it was a movie town. You could do anything you want there.

It's a great town to shoot in. I was just thinking about Spielberg, like having kind of that like southern U.S. part of things to himself and Marty being like, let me out of New York. It's a place back then, you know, Arizona in, you know, after the war, is, but, you know, 60-70s, it's sort of like there's a ton of space. It's cheap as hell. And it's growing. And, like, it's not even really begun to explode in the way that the Southwest would. But, like, it makes sense for somewhere someone's going to go where it's like, well, you know, there'll be something for me to do over there. Yeah. You know, like, it's like... Jody Foster says it's a weird place. I think it's a weird place. I mean, like, honestly,

like the Southwest obviously has its own character to it now. But yeah, back then, I bet you, it was pretty weird. Yeah. I don't know. A single thing about Tucson, except for place on this movie, basically. Well, I think I don't know much about Tucson either. It's not far from Phoenix. I think of it is the kind of crunchier, more liberal cousin to Phoenix. It's a big town. I don't know. The Jody line is my favorite single line of writing in this movie, which is weird, very weird. He's even weird for Tucson. And Tucson is the weird capital of the world. Right. I mean, it's the college. You know, it's where the University of Arizona is. So it's got the, you know, you know from college towns. You know from college towns. You're a Southern gal from college towns. Exactly. You live in like an old school. house, right? You, like, accidentally became the right. I don't just live with a 10 year old and a 7 year old with like 20, 20 year olds. Or I guess more of a neighbor's house maybe. Yeah, I guess you're warring

with the frat boys in the store. So, yeah, they went a week over production, you know, they went a week over schedule, went a little over budget, you know, it's Marty just getting ready for his real sojourns over budget. But a little over budget, it's 1.6 million. Yeah, it was budgeted at 1.6

and ended up more like 1.8 or whatever. Sure. There was a gas crisis, which was an issue. That's a deal with that. I was going to say this was also, you know, Mean Streets was basically an independent film that became a negative pickup for Warner Brothers.

This is him like making a film for Warner Brothers. I think that must have also been appealing to him. You know, it's a lot easier to sell them. David Strongest's a shirt. I'm wearing the 70s logo. It's a lot easier to sell them on something like taxi driver that seems really risky at Columbia when it's like you made a

studio film. You were responsible enough. The amount you went over budget It was more than covered by the success. And you won someone in Oscar. Do we think he had final cut on this? Probably not, right? Definitely not. Yeah.

Well, you never know in the 70s, I guess. I don't think they cared as much. I don't know. If you tested well, they wouldn't. Yeah, my guess is. Well, anyway. And they're not like, look, on page 15, we need Alice already at the diner. Like, they're not coming in with those dumb notes.

I will say, and yet this was turned into a sitcom. That they got Ellis to the diner. I knew Hollywood. And then they're watching and they're like, I can get nice. Okay, but actually Diner, page one every Tuesday night. Why do they end up in Tucson?

Well, there was literally a gas crisis and they could not make it to Tucson, basically. It has nothing to do with the picture, has everything to do with production, is what Martin's... Wow, okay. There you go. Nothing was shot in L.A.

except the opening sequence was on a lot, obviously, the red... Prologue, he basically says, I had a chance to use a Hollywood set. How else are you going to do a flashback? How do you want to do a flashback? That's the whole point. God damn script.

opened and said flashback 1948, Monterey, California. And he was just adamant. They're like, what if you do like black and white? Like that, that would make more sense. And he's just like, the characters hung up on movies. I feel like she would remember in this kind of half fantasy way. It should look like a 40s movie.

It should look kind of indoors. He admits, I got a little crazy with the redness. It's very weird. I had fun with the fog. It feels like Marty being like, I love old movies. I have access just for a day or two to the tricks and to who knows. How long I get this?

Has he ever been on a soundstage before doing that? Like, probably not. Probably not. And he says it's a square screen. It's 130, the Academy ratio. You know, the first scene is Tobacco Road. It's copied exactly, obviously, Wizard of Oz. Dueling the Sun for the Redness of the Sky.

Little East of Eden, a little gone with the wind. You know, he's got a lot of... It was like... William Cameron Menzies, invaders from Mars. Of course. It's like, it was like one-fifth of the budget. It cost $85,000, which was all... So, yeah.

And he's like, and my first feature, who's that knocking cost $35,000 for the whole movie? Right, right. Like, definitely... Right. So, yeah, it's like him for the first time getting to, you know, play in Hollywood. Yeah. And Warner Brothers watches the movie and there one thing is like, can we fucking cut that weird crazy opening with all the red? And Marty's like, take my name off the picture.

Like, I'm going crazy. You know, like, immediately. I'm sure they were just like, oh, Jesus, who cares? Like, whatever. Burst and ran into Peter Bergdanovich and says, I'm doing Alice with this guy, Martin Scorsese. And he said, tell him not to move his camera so much. And Ellen says, I did not relay that to Marty.

He moves it quite a bit. It's funny how he loves to move that camera. This feels like his most kinetic camera work until Goodfellis. Oh, yeah. This movie and sequences has the Coke energy and the way the camera moves into the conversation. Yes. Yeah.

One idea he wanted as many women in authority on the picture as possible. Sandy Weintraub is the producer. Toby Raffleson art director. Marshall Lucas is the editor. He wanted it to be as honest as possible. He wasn't trying to make a feminist track, but he wants this movie, you know, about women

to be in front of women and being like... He wanted to find out what women are like. No, what you don't know. He trusts Marcia's judgment implicitly. And he says like, hey, you know, I know a stained glass guy. I was delighted by the return of Marshall Lucas as a character for this podcast.

I don't know how long it's been since you guys have gotten into martial lore. I mean, she only edits, what, his first three or four? Like, it's a taxi driver. The last time she works with him? Because Thelma reappears. And then she goes on to Star Wars the next year.

New York, New York is her last. Oh, okay. Yeah. Which was a famously easy movie to edit. Yeah. Settled. Anime. Yes.

Yes. Everything about it. The first cut. Okay, this is your thing. The assembly was three hours and 16 minutes. A ton of character stuck gets thrown out. you know, like the husband, there's a lot more of him, you know. I mean, wisely, they reduce him to about 10 minutes.

He's like, we have to get in the car. You don't need anything from him to find out what his deal is. That's the difference is, you know, Cassavetes was like, I want to make movies primarily out of the scenes that anyone else would cut out of a film. The scenes that are not the interesting part or the exciting part, but I want to show where the drama is in that. And it makes sense that Marty would want to shoot all of those things. and then ultimately

whittle it down to that stuff helps inform the other stuff keep the most exciting moments and the major plot points. It helps that he dies within 15 minutes or less. I completely agree. Now, I want to talk about, I want to give you some news on the end,

like some research on the ending, but let's talk about the movie first to get to the ending, because it's an iconic ending, obviously, but shithead husband dies. She goes to Phoenix. She starts being a lounge singer and she meets my handsome fellow.

Harvey Cadell, chill. She calls him a baby. What a child? He's not kind of a baby face. And he has kind of the moppy haircut, like it makes him look younger. She's so adamant that he looks like he's underage. And I'm like, Harvey Keitel was born looking like a Vietnam Day. He doesn't look like underage.

He's got a baby face quality for Harvey Keitel. And it's that thing where you see actors when they're young now. So you're like, oh my God, they look so young. Yes. Like De Niro looks more like a baby at this point than Keitel does. No question. Kytel just always had old man features. He did.

Yes, even when he was young and his skin was smooth. But she shouldn't have trusted him. Her first instinct was correct. Yes. Her first instinct is correct. He is... Well, he's a married guy who's having an affair. I mean, it's actually not that complicated.

He's also violent. Yeah, no, he's a jerk as little bit. But his big secret is just like, oh, I am cheating on my wife with you. Is his sort of his dark secret. But David, it's justified because he says his wife is crazy. She's crazy. For example, she shows up asking why I'm sleeping with another woman. How dare she?

She's angry. I fuck other people. This lunatic. This calls for a switchblade. Breaking some glass, the door, and then it has the entire dresser. Yeah. It is funny that like Scorsese is now doing the break of you're no longer my leading man. And yet in this performance, he kind of gives everyone the like show reel to be like,

hey, and here's how you use Harvey Keitel. He does. And they do. They do. I wonder if Kitell resents it in a way of kind of like the way Marty shifted me to the supporting character, the villainous character. That just became my type. Because even when it's the lead, he's a villainous lead. Is there a story if you've done taxi driver yet of like why it's not Kytel, why it's De Niro and the lead?

Never even considered. And beyond that. That was a De Niro part. Beyond that, a sport was written to be black and very wisely the studio was like, if the Pimp is black, people will burn down the thing. The end of this movie is a little charged. Right. So, yeah, no, it was always De Niro.

He was obsessed with De Niro. I mean, I think it truly was like he fell in love with him on Mean Streets and was like, this guy is the key. As does everybody who watches Mean Streets. Yeah. De Niro is unbelievable in that movie. Yeah. Yeah, he pee good.

He pee good. He pee good. Which is different than Pee, Pee, good, the award they gave for the exorcist. So good. I love that at the end of that Kitell scene in the motel where, like, they get out of there and the camera just stays for a little bit and you see all of the wreckage. It made me think about, I haven't

rewatched Raging Bull in a while, but like that big domestic fight there and like in that movie you're with the guy and this is like the woman's point of view of this like dumb bullshit these men are bringing on with that. Obviously in Raging Bull, that stuff is very powerful and it's very act. But like this stuff gets me even more where she's just trying to keep it together for the kids. Yeah.

After all that happens. I mean, this is own burst in super power. Her fastball is like, has anyone better at quiet suffering than her? she has this fascinating balance of feeling really steely and strong and the kind of person who could say try silence to break you for decades and also at all times you're like, is she on the verge of breaking down in tears? I just wish you had recorded her saying try silence so that I could then play it on the podcast when I need you to try silent.

You got the big red button in front of you. We could just play try silence to wrap up the show. She's just, I feel like that's kind of where she wins the Oscar more than anything, right? is just how well she plays the sort of, and just like the betrayal of like, I fucking, you know, let someone in. Yeah, yeah.

I'm in this, like, fragile situation. He seemed nice, you know, and then here I am again, like, in front of my kid, like, getting humiliated like this and, like, being scary, you know. What felt irresponsible to her was that she was starting an affair with a man who was so much younger. Like, she was like, this is silly and maybe not, like, wise of me. What she realizes is I felt for the same type of guy. again, which I think really devastates her.

And it's so episodic, because, like, you could make a version of this movie where she gets on the road and lands at the diner and the movie's about the diner, but you need this sense of like, oh, no, like, something in me is making these choices again. I got to get out of this. You need her to sort of abandon her dream again. She's just starting to be like, well, maybe I could take it. And it's like, no, I need to get the fuck out of here. I need to just take a job as a waitress.

I need to just keep my head above water for the kid. It's also so big, though, that it's not, the movie's not Nashville. It's not, I always wanted to be a country music star and now I'm going to pursue my dream. It is, I miss singing. Right, I like that. Right. Like, once upon a time, I like that. I'm also happy if that paycheck is 50% serving beers and 50% singing one song a night, you know?

And that was also the moment right before she met her husband. Yes. So it really is like, she's like, I want to start right from where I left off. The last sort of free version of myself. Yeah. Yeah. Can we also shut up before we move on to the diner? I love the bar owner.

Mm-hmm. The one that hires her. Yes. Yes. He's just got some great, funny moments. He has this one part I wrote down where she asks, what's a song he likes? And he just starts saying lyrics to her. And she's like, I don't know that song.

And he's like, well, what? I mean, ironically, this movie. I really like this. This is a movie made up of characters that feel like they could be sitcom archetypes. yet all of them are played like real people. Right. It's like Cassavetti's sitcom. Right.

Yeah. I mean, and then the sitcom, I never really watched Dallas. I've maybe seen it on TV once, but like, I assume it's more sitcom sitcoms sitcom. The criterion disc has all nine seasons on it, right?

I'm gonna find out. You have to play it backwards. Yeah, should at least have the pilot. Yeah, throw it on there. Yeah. So, uh,

yeah, when's the water fight scene? I love the water fight scene. That's a classic like, mother-s-s-sson thing where it's like, we're having fun. We've kind of, we've, it's gone out of control. Yeah.

Because boys are too excitable. I think it's after that. Is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, it is a little bit like, you can mess with your kid in a way. Like, she's not hurting him, but like, they're both taking it too far because you kind of like get on your kids level and do things like that. You are a parent of a child of two sons. It's true. Katie Rich.

I am also a parent of two sons, but they are. In a different part of life. You are a parent of sons closer to this age range. And like you, I feel like can speak more. more to write, like, what that is like. And what, maybe when can you say, what I might be in for, but like, like, to what is, this feels like an underrated mother son movie, underrated only in that it's not discussed all the time.

Like, it was rated well at the time. But, like, it does feel like it kind of nails that specific dynamic. You don't see, like, that's a less discussed dynamic in movies, right? Mother's son. Like, I remember, again, talking about, like, Charlie is a baby who was on this podcast. I remember having this baby and being like, why are they not movies about like the relationship between a parent and a baby. This is the most fascinating relationship I've ever had in my entire life.

Sure. There's a reason for that. Like, I now am aware that it's better if they can talk. But it's- Tully nailed it. There's no reason to make any other commentary on them. It is just a specific thing of like, I made this person. I am responsible for this person.

And but like, they turn you into a kid again in some weird way. They make you think about things. Like, they say the weirdest stuff and you kind of just have to roll with it. They tell terrible jokes in that way. And like, the two of them, against the world. And David, you may have this feeling if you're just like, even without your wife, you're just with your kids, you're like, all right, it's just us. We've got to figure this out. Like, you're worried about. We got to get through the subway or down the street.

And this is such a heightened version of that where it's like, I got you under my arm and we're going to make our way through the world. And it's really moving the way that it gets into the weirdness of it, but also has that kind of bedrock. We're in this together part of it. I want to say a couple things. First of all, Lane Bradbury is the actress who plays Rita, who's Keitel's wife, who I think is incredibly good. Oh, she is so good. In one extended scene. Yeah.

It's just a smart decision to not have it be the like, she comes storming in, who's the harpy who's sleeping with my wife. She's so sad. And she's so empathetic. And she's like, I'm trying to warn you. I'm trying to save you. Yeah. Even more than I'm mad at him and I'm trying to catch him.

Yeah. She also has a son. Yes. Who has some kind of health issue. And he's clearly just doesn't want to deal with the extra difficulty of that burden, of that responsibility. And Ellen Burst in that scene where she is immediately just like, oh, yeah, okay. Yes. We have to have this conversation. She's not trying to get out of it. She's not trying to make any excuses. She, like, takes responsibility instantly. The water fight scene is basically right after her first day at the diner, I think. And it's, it's, you feel that it's her trying so hard to make her son's life fun again.

Because there's been so much upheaval. And then that just comes that point where she's just kind of like, okay, all right. I need to be a parent. It's like, you got to sit down at the diner and be bored. I don't care if you're bored. Because it's that feeling of like, not just I want to console him emotionally, but just like, this has all been so dramatic that I can't even pretend it's normal. So what if instead I act like a little kid for like one night? I get to his level a little bit more. And at least it's just kind of fun. Just because people have probably been yelling at the podcast that I didn't make this connection. Basically, the only other movie that Alfred Lutter was in is Bad News Bears.

Oh, sure. Where he plays the brainy nerd in that and the first sequel. It's good at it. You know what's great? The Bad News Bears. Yeah, but do you know what else? Saying bad news bears as a term? Baseball.

Oh, there we go. Less so. Baseball, the crack of the bat! The crack of the bad I do like. I don't remember if this comes before or after the water, but there's like the kid in the hotel room alone where he's like sitting two inches from the television and watching some old movie.

I didn't recognize. I don't know if you guys did. Good question. But that felt like Spursese self-insert, like this lonely boy watching old movies by himself. Yeah, except this kid doesn't have asthma so he can go out and flirt with Jody Foster. not to.

Yes. I feel like he's watching, though, something where it has a singer that's kind of in the tradition of what his mom is pursuing. It's a Betty Grable movie called Coney Island. Oh, there you go.

And right. And those old Betty Grable movies, that's the kind of music. Scorsese was thinking of when she's like, I wish I was a singer. Yeah. Yeah.

Cool. But yes, she gets to Mel's Diner and we establish what will be one of the greatest ensembles in sitcom history. And it is immediately like, oh, yeah,

I want to hang out. here. Like, she's so fucking goodness. She is money in the goddamn bank. I swear to God. Like, because like she got the Oscar on for this and you watch the movie and you're like,

huh, like she doesn't have a huge role. Like, it's funny that she snuck in, but then you just think about her and you're like, she's just so great every second she's on screen. And she communicates the authenticity of the character just so perfectly. And it's sort of like a star is born performance. Yeah.

Just like I just love watching this person. A hundred percent. And I like that they don't get along. Yeah. She's pretty tough with her at first. Yeah. Yeah, making comments about her body in front of everyone. But then they have that scene where she freaks out when the short order cook or whatever asks her, where's Vera?

And her line is, she went to shit and the hogs ate her. And the like explosion of the, what is it, the ketchup all over her apron. Right. The great Valerie Curtin as Vera, the sort of the quieter. She's so funny. I mean, the very end of the movie, when they're in the bathroom talking. and it just keeps cutting back to Vera, like, trying to, like, handle all the places. She's just, like, crying when people are throwing napkins in her.

It's amazing. The cousin to Jane. Of course. Of course. But the scene where they're finally sort of endeared to each other, and Diane Ladd starts giving her the tips. And here's how you get good tips. And then it turns into them, like, sunbathing. Oh, yeah.

It goes from this moment of just, like, reflection and respect to just, like, actually, let's try to get some color. Well, and it's like female friendship again. And it made me think about Scorsese like, Age of Innocence or Silence or these other movies where he's like, what is this world? How can I figure out how this works? And it is kind of him being like, what's it like to be a woman with a friend?

And that curiosity drives it and makes it feel so true in the process. Yeah, yeah. And he hired good people. He surrounded himself with good people. He did. You guys ever work in a diner? No.

Did you ever work in a diner, David? No. Just like, seems like such a cool, you know, like, gig. I seem so hard. Nothing feels more stressful to me. But like when I say cool, I don't mean like cool to do, but just like it's like having like epaulets, you know, star star.

It's a badger. It's a purple heart. What's more badass than being like a line cook or a fucking diner waiter? Yeah, the scariest people you're ever going to meet in your life. I went to my friend Caitlin's wedding last weekend. Humble Frank. Thank you. A co-host of his different.

Secret podcast. My not secret podcast about baseball that you should definitely subscribe to. And we drove through Pennsylvania, the great state. And we stopped at a diner in Scranton that had real Alice doesn't live here any more vibes where we walked in

because we're hungry. And it's like, we're in a rush. You know, we're trying to, it's a seven-hour drive. And we walk in and we're like, oh, fuck, should we turn around? Because the vibes were bad. In what way? One that was kind of just knowing around.

I mean, there were customers, but there's no waiters around. And then we see one waitress, and she has just like, the worst, like, scowl on her face. And we're just like, oh boy. And we're like, okay. And she's like, yeah.

And we're like, okay. And we like, sit down. And then, like, we are served fantastic food. Like the food rocked. Like an exceptional BLT and grilled cheese sandwich, right? They don't need to woo you. They got great food. You can do whatever you want.

And then we realized like, oh, there's some drama happening where the waitress, I think, just maybe got in a fight with another customer. Love that. And then maybe got chewed out by a boss. And now she's complaining. to somebody else about, you know, how fuck this plate, you know what I mean? And then when she, like, gave us her check, we were like, the food was really great. And she was just like, you know, that actually means a lot to hear it.

And we're like, oh, my God. You made her day. What is happening in this way in this fucking dying? And that's what it's like, you know, it doesn't live here anymore. We're like, what's going on with all these people? They're just so intense and like, there's such. This is every waffle house. Right.

Yeah. I know we started with it, but you go in that waffa house because you see the whole kitchen is right They're in front of you and you're just, you sit there long enough. You can figure out everybody's stealing. Everyone's mad at each other. Isn't Waffle House even more intense causes 24 hours? So you have to be like, you're like a fucking maybe seal in there. If you're working like a night shift.

Absolutely everything. The Waffle House storm warning thing. Yeah. It's totally real. Right, David? Go ahead. The Waffle House index where if the Waffle House close, some Waffle House closes, it's orange. It's like the National Weather Service or FEMA or whatever branch of the government still

cares about this stuff. Right. Yeah. If Waffle House has to be like. get the fuck out of there. Maybe a limited menu today. They will, they will, yeah, if Waffle House is closed, you better get FEMA in there immediately. That's the thing.

Like, they don't even take their notes from the government. The government goes like, oh, fuck, that Waffle House is closing. Yeah. Because those people are, they have seen absolutely everything. I don't want to go to Waffle House. Come on. It's the best. You remember pre-COVID, you guys were driving to Florida.

Yeah, we had a plan. Yeah, there was playing. And David had a bunch of kids. Summer 2020. He kept slipping and having another kid. It could still happen. throw everybody in the car, come on down. The closest Waffle House at least last I checked is in Allentown, Pennsylvania.

Yeah. I went there. I went there. When I lived here, I remember looking it up at some point because I'm so deeply devoted to Wobiles. It's like a two hour drive. It's pretty far. I think you might be mad if you drove two hours to Waffle House. It's one of those things where it's like, I need something that's open now. And when you're a teenager, it's somewhere you can go. And that is where the tree is up. Yeah, it's still there. It's near Allentown. I've never had a Waffle House meal not exceed my expectations. And I go in.

With sky high expectations, and every time it just delivers. I like the waffles, too, to be clear. Obviously, the hash browns are what everyone talks about. But I have the hash brown bowl now where you can get like a hash brown with cheese and an egg on top of it. This isn't coming. It's really good. It's good. I don't know if I need any newfangled additions.

It's been there probably for 15 years. It's a little new thing. Oh, yeah. Whippersnapp. Uh-huh. You can't change these things on me. Christophagin doesn't enter the movie until like an hour and 15 minutes. He does not.

If you saw the poster. and we're like, can't wait to see Chris Kay. It's, you're kind of like, where's my guy? You know? Especially since, like, we've already had a, she wants to be a musician arc. Yes. And he didn't appear for that.

And too bad relationships. Yes. And then he's just like, you know, what's his name? David. Hey, it's my name. Hey. He's one of the guys. He's a customer.

He's divorced. He's a ranger. Got a farm. He plays a little guitar. You got a nice little beer. He's got some. blowing locks. He does.

He does. But he shows up around the same time that she finally kind of gets her standing within Mel's. I mean, God damn. Like, Harvey Keitel fucks her up so bad

that she won't fuck Chris Christopherson right away. Like, she should be fucking him right away. And Keitel should be on this side of her. But she's got to learn how to have some restraint. Life is tough.

Yeah, life is tough. However, he is, he does spend kids. And she does get mad at him as saying, you're the kind of guy who hits kids. And then watching this now, you're like, yeah,

Don't get with that guy. That doesn't feel shocking to me in the same way. She gets so mad at him about it. Sure. Well, he shouldn't spank her kid. I guess that's what it is. It's dad. But I think he wants to be.

And when he comes back to her, I was waiting for him to be like, oh, and yeah, I shouldn't have hit your kid. And he doesn't do that. He doesn't quite do that. Yeah. It's not a sticking point for me. To be clear, I'm not pro spanking kids. I just feel like in the 70s plenty more kids were getting spanked, right?

I mean, I agree. But the extent the way she was mad at him for it. Like, does he apologize enough for that for her to take him back in that great scene? It's true. And, like, the last thing that poor kids needs is someone laying hands on him. Exactly. Like, he's witnessed violence. He's just been in that, you know, she understands her kid emotionally.

He was being a jerk in that scene of Christopher's off. You know, 12-year-old. It's got the foulest mouth. We should also call out that he has been sneaking around with Jody Foster drinking wine. Oh, yeah. Drinking wine shoplifting. Learning about grown-up stuff. Mm-hmm.

Being bad kids. Jody Foster has a foolproof plan for a shoplifting from that guitar store, though. Oh, go ahead. That's the classic move. Oh, yeah. Created distraction. Uh-huh. And someone else grabs the thing, shoves it down their pants.

Yeah. Been there. Done that. Are you more the kid? Or are you Jody Foster? Like, of these kids, who are you relating to more? Hmm. Interesting.

What does she say to the cops when she leaves the police station? Like, does she say like suck at pigs or something? I think so. It's so good. It is so good. She's pretty cool. She's a badass. I was a little bit of the bad influence at times.

Okay. But then also sometimes the one follower. Yeah, it's an exchange. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, what happens? I mean, not really. They hang out of his ranch. Yeah, once the spanking happens,

we're pretty close to the resolve of the movie. Yeah. You get the great scene with them in the bathroom, or Diane Lads. Like, you're mad at them. It sounds like you love him. And she's crying and they're laughing and it's perfect. She doesn't want to fall into the same thing again.

Of course, why would she? And she's jumping at the first trigger. But ultimately, the fact that this man is willing to apologize. And is Chris Christopherson. He is Chris Christopherson. Your face keeps turning bright red. What's going on on your screen? You don't know.

Is it turning bright red? Yes. I do have a Reader's Digest story about the Titan implosion, which happened three years ago. Rest and peace to all those beautiful people open. And they're my, I think it was a weird auto play. It's very relevant to this current conversation. I just, it looks like a wafelaw storm warning is happening on David's face. Jody Foster says when she exits the police station, so long, suckers.

Yeah. Very. The classic. She's got kind of a roadrunner energy to her. Oh, my God. All her anywhere. Remember when that fucking thing, I feel, of course. The Titanic's up.

Yeah. It was three years ago. I know exactly where I was. I just will never forget whether they're like, a thing is lost down there. And I'm like, oh, oh, what is it? And they're like, I'll check it out. It's this kind of metal tuba guy threw together. It's got like a PlayStation control.

And I'm like, hey, this was being sent down regularly. And it was like one guy in there alone. No, like 10 rich people. There would be those cartoons where it was like, you know, five little stick figures inside. And you're just like, what is this? You sound like like James Cameron, who spent a lot of time on television there being like, I knew it wasn't going to work. Mistakes for me.

I could have told you that thing was going to explode. The funniest thing in the world where he's like, I knew they blew up. Fuck them. Would you stay with a. man who spanked your children without permission. It is something I feel very strongly about, actually. I think it would really upset me. But, I mean, I don't live in 1973.

I know. I don't know if I feel differently then. But I know, I'm not pro spanking, no. It made me think about how, I don't know if you experienced this too, David. It's like, other kids are much more annoying to me than my own. Like, I have a much higher threshold for, like, what I can put up with from my kids. And you're around, like, your kid's friends. You're just like, I can't do this right now.

But, yeah, no, I mean, right, hard not to be, like, judgey. Or just like, like, my tolerance has reached a limit. Like, I cannot listen to your jokes anymore. You don't belong to me. I don't have to do this. So I guess Chris Christopherson being like, I'll listen to this kid's bad jokes. Because he gets... Do you guys understand the joke that he's trying to tell about the nuts?

I do not. I can't figure it out. I really pissed me off, honestly. Even in the movie, I was like, just the fuck off. It makes no sense. Because he tells him to Chris Krassofferson, too, who's doing the same thing and being like, I'm really doing my best here. I mean, I feel like the joke is that, you know, the nuts are balls.

and like there's kind of like a dirty joke. You sound like the kid explaining it. Right. It just never quite gets resolved. And they like the adults keep kind of like interrupting him to give sort of what they think is the punchline. I think is they want him to shut up. And so that ruins it only more. He's, you know, he's a little annoying.

But, you know, no spanking. You know, you don't want to associate discipline with violence. Would you go live on that ranch though? He's growing like alfalfa, I think. Or look. Look. Okay. I don't want to live in Arizona.

You're a city boy. You don't want to live on this ranch. Well, I'm just saying, like, if I wanted to live in the countryside, my guess is I would want a more verdant and moist part of the world. I'm not really a dry heat guy, not what I grew up with, not really what I'm used to. I think I'd probably... You know I am. I love a steam room. I know, I know.

Yeah, exactly. You, Ben, would you go live on that ranch? I'd love to ride a dang horse. Yeah, you love the horse. Okay. Yeah. But, you know, are you built for Phoenix? Like, what do you think?

I have Arizona? No. Getting out there? No. I couldn't do it. Tumbleweeds. I've actually never been to the desert. Is that a goal

we could think for you? Ooh, Roger. Because, I mean, you like... Next time you go to L.A., it's not that far. You can drive like two hours out and you're in the desert. And I, as like an east coaster, I have the same thing where you get out there.

You're like, God, those mountains are like 100 miles away. How is this possible? Right. Now, Griffin, I'm going to... I'm not wondering what I want to speak for you. But I'm also going to assume, like, the Arizona desert, maybe not your prefer.

You're not moving to that ranch with Christmas What about a visit? I did a... I've got a cup of coffee, you know. I've been to Arizona. I did a short film in Albuquerque a couple years ago. Yeah, I remember. And my body almost retired.

You got off the plane of your body. It was like, I'm going to sit this one out. You're going to have figured up all by yourself. Basically incompatible. We shot a... We were supposed to shoot a thing. It was like a survivalist post-apocalyptic thing. And I'm supposed to be someone who's not well-suited for that.

And even then... We shot a thing at the top of a mountain very high altitude, and my eyes were just like, oh, by the way, we're not going to open. I couldn't stop crying and I couldn't keep my eyes open and we had to shoot around it

and they put me in a car and put the car seat all the way back and then, like, poured a bunch of water on a towel. And I just lay there with a wet towel over my eyes for like two hours. We've got to moisten this guy's laid. Reset a little bit. A little bit.

Wow. There was also like a dust storm. Let's keep you in the Northeast. I like being here. I would think that Scorsese honestly would be in the same way. I think he felt it. He does not feel like a creature of the West. But I think he found it very interesting as just an alien landscape.

And film-wise, it was exciting for him to have this alien landscape. He goes back for Killers of the Flower Moon 40 years later. And I assume he directed from within a plastic bubble. I sort of assume that too. Probably for both of this movie. The ending is very, very, like, great is great cinema. Because it's got this sort of touch of ambiguity to it. it's got this kind of earthy naturalism to it.

Oh, the variant with them walking down the street. You know, and just him coming back to her not. Now, it's written as more of a straightforward happy ending. They got married. Burston is just like, I don't want it to have that kind of a cut and dry ending. Like, why does she have to end up with a man? Mm-hmm. So, you know, she insists on rewrites.

And Warner Brothers is like, we're not fucking doing an unhappy ending. Like, they're like, we had just done scarecrow. Oh, sure. Paul Mazursky, right? No, I'm sorry. Like, Grusbard? No, no, it's neither. It's a fooling.

I got, Carol Rice. Is that who it is? No, come on. I'm so annoyed by this. Who directs? Jerry Shatsberg. There we go. It only took seven tries.

It's fucking obviously Jerry Shatsberg. What's an embarrassing thing for me to say? Penn's mocking us right. Pedic and Needle Park, you know. And he's like, and Scare cries is happy ending and that made no fucking money. We're not doing an unhappy ending again. And Ellen Berson's like, I'm not saying unhappy end. I'm just saying,

Does she need to end up with a man? Like, are you telling me she doesn't end up with a man? Is an unhappy ending? Everything can't be perfect at the end. And he's like, what I'm telling you is she doesn't end up with a man. We're not making the movie. It's the one time they kind of push back in terms of like, sorry. And so they kind of compromise on this like, she sort of says maybe we'll get back.

You know, like it's a little more ambiguous, right? They'll try. It's a pretty good ending. I can't deny, you know. But you get the kiss in the diner and everyone. clapping and like you get the energy of that scene. Even leading up to that when they're in the bathroom. She really breaks

down. That is like I think one of the best scenes. Yeah. And like that's more of the emphasis than the one with Christopherson almost. So that's burst and kind of getting what she wants is that friendship is so important. The way she puts it is Chris improvises okay come on, I'll take you into Monterey.

And like it's not about staying on the ranch or you know and it's more of a free exchange. The man is willing to support the one in her aspirations. He's making a sacrifice. Exactly. He's sort of releasing me from the bondage

of the old way of thinking. Thank God for Chris. He was smart and aware. So she's like, she's pretty happy with how it goes. Corsese still acknowledges like, yeah, it's a little pat that she gets the handsome man at the end. But I think we do a good job suggesting like it's still probably going to be kind of stormy.

Like, it's not like, Chris Schoferson's like, I'll chill out. It does feel like this scene. I know this vampire hunter. Let's go find a blade. It does feel like the other patrons applauding and getting roped up in him having to make the big apology in front of everybody feels like the scene that gives them the codex to be able to make a sitcom.

Yeah. It's the one scene where it's like the diner is acting like one organism. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, Laura Dern in the background as they small child eating ice cream according to Wikipedia. I think I spotted her. She's like right behind Ellen Burstyn, I think. Because, of course, daughter of Diane Ladd,

this is her first on-screen appearance. She's got huge glasses. Yes. Oh, yeah. Wow. She's so cute. Roger Ebert, mm-hmm. Says, the movie's been both attacked.

Wait, wait, we should talk about the actual lesson in the movie? The actual ending, of course, it's what saves the movie for me. Yes. Is that if it ended on everyone applauding her and Christopherson kissing. That's too, that's too, right. Yeah. But it goes back to the kid. It goes back to her relationship with her son.

Yeah. I'm laughing because I'm watching the bathroom scene, and they're cutting back to. the other Vera. Oh my God, it's so funny. And everyone's getting into a fight and there's so much chaos. So funny. Tommy's saying, Mom, I Can't Breathe is also

improvised and is very sweet. That's good. You know, like, that's because she truly was Yeah. Grip and him too tight. Yeah. But, and they're walking down the, like, kind of shitty street and there's the sign in front of them that says Monterey. Like, that's the version of what they're heading toward. But I guess I live there. They've got all that fish.

Got a big aquarium. In Monterey? Yeah. Oh, sure. Where is Monterey in California? It's like south of San Francisco. Like, isn't it where big little lies is set? I think so.

Yes, yes. And everything weren't well for those guys. Yeah, I won't be good for you. If you're not that rich, it might turn out fine for you. Remember how Adam Scott's in that? Yeah. It's like, you know, all this insane drama is hanging happening. He's like, this sucks.

Witherspoon's husband? Yeah, and he's like a tech guy. And she's like, I'm going crazy about the school board. And he's like, okay. It's like, this is a one and done, right? Limited series, no second season? Did he come back for the second season? I watched it.

It's all kind of. vanish for my brain in that show. Oh, yeah. Who is Dern's husband? Oh. Because Garsgarde's obviously married to Nicole Kidman. And Shalene doesn't have a husband. No, but she's a single mother. For somebody in the second season. But Dern definitely has a husband.

She tells someone I will not not be rich. Because she's Renata. Jeffrey Nordling. Oh, of course. The great. Yes. The great Nordling. And then everyone's just kind of scared of Zoe Kravitz. Yeah, well, she's fucking scared. Oh, I forgot about her. But she's married to some guy, too.

She's married to someone's ex. Exactly. She married to Reese's ex? Yeah, it's, um, it's Reese's X. Got it. And you know, there's a, if you, if you really pay attention, there's a, a liar to being talked, a big one. Or they little.

They could be both and they could be both at the same time. David? Yes. Red alert. Uh-oh. There's been an outbreak. Biohazard. Of a new Patreon series.

It's contagious. Oh, that's so true. It's been cooked up in the lab for your pleasure. From the fine folks at the Umbrella Corporation, we are covering Resident Evil. The film franchise. Yes. We've got the first franchise. Six movies.

Yes. That beautiful second franchise. How many? Six, seven? It's got the one movie. Oh, it's got the one. We'll be covering all of them on Patreon doing commentaries on, yes, the Resident Evil, Apocalypse, Extinction, Afterlife, Retribution, the final chapter. Welcome to Recru, Sydney.

This is an exciting time. Zach Greger, a friend of the podcast. Has the new Resident Evil coming out. We thought this was a good opportunity to revisit the history of Resident Evil movies. Why not? Why not? Why can't we? We can.

Check in for that August 1st. And it's going to be running all the way through November 1st. Followed by your March Madness winner. Dracula. Dr. Acula himself. That's so fun. So that's great. That's great.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Roger Ebert. It's just interesting to hear this movie discussed at the time. This movie's been attacked and defended on feminist grounds. It sounds like he's on film Twitter. You know what I mean? Like he's like, I'll wade into the discourse.

I mean, where is it? And Alice doesn't live here anymore. Where are they doing all this fighting? Just in the village voice? I think so. Yeah, in reviews. It's fascinating to consider the way there was discourse at a time where only 20 people had a platform of any size.

So much more peaceful. I mean, still annoying, probably. I guess like if people would write letters into the newspaper and be like, I disagree with that review. Arguing outside Lincoln Center probably. It's pretty good to Ebert here, though. I think it belongs somewhere outside ideology, maybe in the area of contemporary myth and romance. You know, the movie seems less about Alice than does about the speculations and daydreams dreams of a lot of women her age who identify with liberation of other women but are unsure

on the subject of themselves. I think it's a great way of putting out. Pauline Kale. Did she have an opinion on this? She usually was just kind of like, oh, I don't know. It's all right. Three stars. Ben, when David said Pauling Kale, can we edit in like a thunderclass?

Someone playing the organ. One of the rear films that genuinely deserves to be called controversial. Again, this is Alice doesn't live here anymore. It's not fucking cannibal Holocaust. I think people will really fight about it. It's the story of a woman who has a second chance thrust on her. she knows enough not to make the same mistake again, but she isn't sure of much else.

Neither is the movie. Oh, Pauline in for the kill after setting up what seemed like a nice review. Oh, boy. People responded to this like it was Lady Ghostbusters where they're like, what are they trying to push on us? She's basically like,

the movie is totally enjoyable and funny and absorbing. I just don't think it has like a take on its big issue. So why does she think it deserves to be controversial? I don't know. Molly Haskell, the great film critic and obviously a leading voice and feminist film criticism and all that

sort of has the same problem of like they're making a women's picture. It's self-consciously. And I think, right, he's sort of playing ironic tribute and it didn't quite feel authentic enough for me. That makes sense for like a critic at the time

watching this movie and being, especially given the opening of it, being like this is a little too cute for me. I think Marty doesn't quite know what he's playing with here or whatever. Now you watch this movie and you're like, my God, if only Hollywood made movies like this anymore. And like, what a refreshing thing that Scorsese made something like this early in his career with a studio, with a fucking movie star that won Oscars? Like, that's fantastic. At the time, they're basically

just kind of like, I don't know. Seems like a bunch of bullshit to me. Like, good for them. Commercial Pablam. They could fight about it back then. They could fight about it back now. You know what? Now we're just kind of like, take me to the back rooms. Yeah. We get so many of the people, the worst takes on Scorsese being like, he makes these movies that are about men, he has any understanding of it. And if you just sit someone to be like, no, this guy made this with the exact amount of curiosity of everything else. Like, it's always

been there. I think it's a very good film. It is not like my favorite Martin Scorsese movie. I'm not sure I would put it in his top 10. I'm not sure where I put it though. Where do I have it? I probably have it in like his top, you know, 20. He's made a lot of good fucking movies. I think when I did my like letterbox ranking after watching all them, I was like 15 of them are five star

masterpieces. It's like it's really hard to rank them in that. It's kind of a day-by-day thing. Can I share a quote from film review in The Times. Who is it by? Vincent Canby. Okay. All right. Alice doesn't live here anymore has the distinct advantage over most films by growing on you. By getting better and better as it goes along until at the end, you look back over

it with some of the wonder and pleasure with which you might suddenly acknowledge an unexpected friendship. That's a little bit. I thought that was such a solid. Yeah, that's really good. Summary. It's the Diane Ladd of Movies. And Camby was not in the Haskell, Kale, like,

you know, where he's like, like, he's a down the line movie critic of like, this is a good experience. Like, you're going to have a good time watching this book. Also, him making this between mean streets and taxi driver, which are just like sad and violent and intense is like exactly the taxi driver coming after this. You also just have to think about a lot of people have careers that start out with things like taxi driver and who's that knocking at my door or excuse me, mean streets and who's that knocking at my door. And then it's like, great, you made your little personal movie. you've shown us that you know how to make a movie on a technical level, now you're in the studio system. You have to imagine that people could have assumed

is he just going to be a guy who hops from genre to genre and isn't making deeply personal films anymore. And instead, after this, every movie he makes feels, almost every movie he makes feels very personal, even when it is a genre exercise. Are you calling Main Street's the guarantor, or is this the guarantor that gets taxi driver's? It's kind of a double.

It's like the two pieces. It helps to have made a movie. that succeeded have made money. Like, I don't think anyone's watching this being like, I think he's already working on taxi driver in some sense. And like, he's a big, exciting director. The first one, for sure. Sure. Sure.

They mean, yeah. I don't know. We were kind of arguing. That's the blank. Oh, sure. That's true. Tax driver's more the guarant-trial. Like, taxi driver's not an expensive movie.

Yeah. And that's a movie where he's fighting every minute to get anything through. It's just such a crazy movie. Yeah, it is. But New York, New York is more him being like, I want a lot of money to make something that is awesome. Yeah. And they're like,

We think you can make that work. Of course, while he's making it, he's like, I think everyone's going to like this. Yeah. Which is the crazy part. Was he doing any drugs at the time that would have accouted his judgment? Anything about that? I don't think Marks, because he's not messed around with that sort of stuff. And his marriage was going very well, right?

But you can see on screen, it has a great view of relationships. Absolutely. A fascinating movie. We almost had you do that one. I know. And I got really excited about it. And it's a tough movie. I don't love it the way that I love Alice doesn't live here anymore.

I'm so glad I get to talk about this. But New York and New York is like such a rich text. I feel like I'm similar to you. in that I really like wrestling with it. And the stuff in it that works, I think, is, like, exceptional. Oh, it's a fascinating. It's what you guys are saying.

It's a, well, I think if you're out here being like, that is one of his best movies, I think even Marty would kind of be like, are you sure about that? Like, that movie is, movie is flawed. But you see, the soundstage opener of this leads you directly to New York.

Oh, correct. He's like, give me more of those, you know, backdrops painted. I'm ready. And, you know, there's a, there's a mean boyfriend or two in that film. There is, in fact, one major, one in particular.

Yeah, thinking of kind of worst boyfriend in the history of movies. I can't wait for you guys too. Because you got your Scissi rankings, but ranking like De Niro as the guy who will ruin your life, like at the end of Scorsesee. I mean, you could talk about them, I tell them there too if you want to between the two of them they have a lot. Just so much to choose from. This is a good question. Who is the, like, which De Niro is the best dating option in the Spursasee canon? I'm like, is it Irishman guy?

Well, I was going to say, if I'm going to fight anyone, I want to fight that guy because he can't even punch near you. He's got a hell of a kid. Yeah, if you're air, if your air, you're like, oh no! He's kicking! I might go with Johnny Boy from Mean Street. Yeah, Johnny Boy, she's kind of a rascal, yeah.

He's trying hard. You can only date him if you're in your early 20. Can I date him in casino, like, and kind of just sneak on by? I don't do Coke like Sharon Stone does. You got to get it and get out. Like, you can't stay. You don't think so.

No. You can't stay with him for, too long. Yeah, but I feel like if I'm with him in casino, I'm just kind of like, I get a hotel room, fine. I'll leave you alone. Like, whatever. I don't know. I'm not going to. This is your version of Ben's, this movie would end with me owning an island. You're running the casino. You're busy. You're stressed out. I don't think it ends well. I think bottom is Cape Fear. You got to have that fear at the bottom. I want to throw out. Text the driver though. Do you think Max Katie like picks up some women who he doesn't, aren't

reconnected to someone who he wants to fuck with and like has a good time and then moves on. You're forgetting the I'm not. She's like that. She's part of the whole. She's part of the whole scheme, though. Like, if she's, like, not connected to that. I think it's a bad sign. I think it's a real bad sign. It's possible, but I don't think you want to play those on it. It's just funny that Travis Bickle might not be bottom because of Max Cee. I think he has to not be bottom. That's the same. Well, let's also say, like, Travis Bickle's more attractive than Rupert pumpkin. He's a looker. So you have to put him above. Rupert doesn't know how to fuck. Rupert does not know how to fuck. He's not going to shoot anyone,

probably. Probably. Probably. Well, when tax driver, he commits crimes. He has a gun. Are we throwing a Killers of the Flower Moon? Like, that's not my top pick, but not the worst. This is what I'm saying. That guy ends up being like top three. And he commits genocide.

He does. But he's got a, he's got a great car. Great car, great goggles. Driving gloves. What more do you need in a man? I think Irishman is near the top. And Anna Pacquine literally doesn't even want to speak to him. I think by default, that's number one.

And you know what? He's always probably like, you know, I killed Jimmy Hoff and he's like, sure, you killed him. He doesn't care. Where's my clams? And Jimmy Hoppa, on the other hand, take him home. Yeah, well, it wouldn't dare. I cannot wait to do Irishman bits. I swear to it.

They wouldn't dare. That was my favorite thing. He wouldn't dare. He's like on Twitter, I would post him saying they wouldn't dare anytime it was like, Taika Waititi promises like a magic. cap satire for his name. I'm like, they wouldn't. They wouldn't do that. Tyka, they wouldn't let him do that.

Where is my response when I see a headline like that? It is what it is. It is what it is. That movie rocks. That movie is the best. It's for cool kids. It's so good. I mean, this entire series is you guys being like, you know this movie? Like, very good. Yeah. Let's do the box office.

This film came out in December 9th, 1974. A little Christmas treat for you. Ah, under the tree. Number one at the box office is a film that has been out for, I want to say, conservatively five months. And it's doing quite well at the box office, which is maybe speaking to some cultural issues in our country at the time. It's about a guy who something very bad happens to a member of his family. Death Wish. It's been out for five months.

Yeah. And it is a bogus sensation. Wow. You know, and some people might be like, well, that was terrible and I need to process this motion. And he's like, where's my piss? And he does it so well that other people come to him and they're like, can you solve my family shit? Sure. Why not? Death Wish, Charles Bronson and the Michael winner film.

Death Wish, anyone ever seen? I've seen it. I've never seen the Death Wish is. Seems like a bummer. The first one is like a pretty effective movie. Like you definitely get it. And it's even movies that are about how New York is like a fucking crime-soaked hellhole in the 70s, you watch them now and you're like, New York City, baby. It's great to see her on screen. The second one is the one that's like unbelievably nasty.

I believe the second one is where they're just kind of like, okay, so what worked about this is just like violence and racism. Right. Yeah. I have not obviously seen like Death Wish 4 the Crackdown, which is funny to think that by four he's like, I think it's time to start cracking down. I've been taking it too easy. Time to expand outside of my problems. What's the Simpson's joke? And now I'm going to fix it to fix it to fix.

He's on like the Phil Silver show. That's good. All right. Number two is a disaster movie. Beside an adventure? Nope. Is towering Inferno? Keep going.

Earthquake. Earthquake. There we go. And that's your 40X, right? It wasn't called Shakoama, but it was called something like that. It was called censor. Sensoround. Then you're, there's an earthquake.

Do you do the earthquake ride at the Oldsple Universal Studios? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love the movie. Done the ride. I can't remember. I can't remember if it's that they put

motors under the seats or they put speakers under the seat. But they did put things under the seats. It was speakers. I think they would like blast like basically subwifers to make your seat vibrate a little bit. It's a little like the Dolby theaters now. Right. It was like a D-box sort of like a proto D-Box.

It's closer to Dilby where you're like the sound is so loud the chair shakes rather than the movie is synced up to shake in a specific way. Yeah and it's not like built on some gimbal that's like shifting the floor or anything like that. It's gimbol-lis. It's gimbol- It's gimbledess. This is some gimbledess bullshit.

It's a Macy's. No gimbals. Number three of the box office is a sequel to a sort of death wish-esque kind of like shock hit. It's not Billy Jack. It's fucking is Billy Jack. Which one is it? The second. Goes to Washington?

No. He's yet to go to Washington. Billy Jack did eventually go to Washington. I just didn't know. That was a thing. I bet he told them to clean up their act. Drain that swamp. The return of Billy Jack.

It's called the trial. Oh, the trial. Of course he went on trial. Oh, no, I'm so sorry. The second film is called Billy Jack, but I'm forgetting that the first film is called the Born Losers, and that actually introduces Billy. But he's not the main character.

No, and I think Billy Jack, the 1971 film, which is the surprise, like, you know, essentially an indie film. And I think there isn't a Washington I was thinking of the trial of Billy Jack. That's what I was. No, there definitely is. There is. Is that the, oh, no, Billy Jack goes to Washington.

Okay. That's the third one. He cleaned it up. And then the return of it. of Billy Jack, which was not released. Yes, I know this. In which he takes on child pornographers, and I guess they were kind of just like, let's

let's call it quick. Wasn't there also some death involved in that production? Maybe, let's see what happens. I want to say it was like also not completed for some reason. It was not completed. 17 minutes were filmed. Oh, good. He suffered a head injury

while making it, and they ran out of money. Yeah. So no one died, but, you know. So that's number three of the box office. We've threatened to do the Billy Jacks on Patreon. Let's do it. Let's jack it up. Do those in the death wishes all together. Yeah.

That sounds like a bummer. Anti-woke winter. Number four is a sports film. Mm-hmm. Kind of one of the original sort of sports comedies. You know, as bad news bears is coming around the corner. It's not, well, it's not Slapshot. No.

And worse than Slapshot. It's not longest yard. In fact, it is. Bert Reynolds in the longest yard. Ruddy. longest yard. It's a ruddy picture. Robert Aldrich's The longest yard. I've ever seen it. No, but he

wasn't the real artist behind it. The greatest film producer whoever lived, the bravest man. S. Ruddy as portrayed by Miles Teller. Hey, I got an idea for an offer. In the Paramount Plus picture. Making the offer ever says in 2026. This is more you've done the offer references on his death. It's the best TV show that's ever happened.

It's also incredible and it's never been more relevant because Michael is the most offer-coded movie that has ever existed. With Miles Teller. Miles Teller basically reprising his performance. Miles Teller as Al Ruddy as John Branca. I just saw a movie that Miles Teller is good in. And it's one of those things where you're like, right.

Like, he just needs, well, you know, good director. He needs a character to work with here. Like, he's not the fool that I take him for these days all the time. Well, because, like, a businessman will develop a movie about how good of a businessman he was and then hire Miles Teller and be like, where this way? It's crazier than that. A businessman will make a movie about

The Godfather and be like, and the person who should get the most credit is me, not Francis Ford Coppola, you know, Al Pacino. It's a much smaller part, but Michael has major tones of that of like, his story's going to continue. And Bronca's going to save him. Right. The offer, of course, has the greatest

screenwriting credit of all time, which is based on the experiences of Al Ruddy making the godfather. It's not even based on a fucking book. It's based on a couple of conversations. He sat down and dictated it. That's all you need. I don't even know if he dictated it. Number five

of the box office is a film that I wish featured characters like Gile Chun Lee. Okay, is this lady street fighter or is it's the original street fighter? It is a film simply a Japanese martial arts film called the great Sunni Chirma. Yes.

Called the Street Fighter. I believe I recently bought the shell factory box set of this. Sounds like something. You'll get to that one in 2029 or whatever. Yeah, sure. Let's hope so. It's just so funny with like the radiance, you know, drop comes.

And it's like, this just a cue's a film and I'm like, I'll just get it. You don't even need to tell me. And I'm like, how many fucking Yakuza films do I have like, you know, waiting to be watched at this point?

An addiction, Katie. You're not in a Blu-ray addiction. No. Do you have a disc player? Yeah. I've got, I've got discs that I've collected over various times, like getting them through press stuff

mostly. But no, you guys in your physical media thing, I don't. Don't include hands. No, okay. I wasn't looking at you. I'm just looking. Ben's normal. He doesn't have any physical media problem. He hates it. Well, I do. Yeah, there we go. But it's vinyl. Yeah, you're the vinyl. You already did this with the vinyl. I feel like they're like there. Yeah. The hands in the pot. Okay. Unfortunately, I am starting to get into art books, which are, you know. Well, they're really small, right? Small. Yeah. And like weight. You just kind of throw one in your toe bag. You run around town.

Easy to store. You should get into like art novellas where it's just like two paintings. Number six at the box office is a film I know you're very fond of Griffin. The Little Prince. It is a movie I love. Have you ever seen the Stanley Donan and Little Prince?

No, I've not. With, of course, Bob Fossy. It's one of the Wallace movies ever made and Bob Fossy plays the snake in it and he creates Michael Jackson's persona. Oh, I mean, he did that in so many of the other dance movies. But this, he's dressed like head to toe black with like a jazzy glove.

He's got the hat. And the white socks. I think I've seen clips of this. He's like new walks. Yeah. Yeah. It's a famous, like his dancing in it is remember. I think I had seen that.

Gene Walder plays the Fox. He would make my best supporting actor ballot this year. He's un-fucking believable in that movie. I love how long Stanley Donan's career was. That guy was making movies for decades. Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

Dude Donan one of these days. I want to do guys. That's a lot of movies. Yeah. Maybe there's a way to sort of hack it to, I don't know. Number seven is one of them. my favorite films of all time to taking a Pellon, one, two, three. Yeah. Taking in New York. Number eight is

Airport 1975, which is, what is that, the second one? Wait, so it came out in 74, but it's called Airport, 1975. They're getting ready for the excitement of tomorrow. Like new car models. Blues Brothers 2000 came out in 1998.

Obviously the comp. Yeah, obviously. Which is Charlton Heston, Karen Black, George County, whatever. I'm right now. A million people are in that. Number nine, a reissue. Cabaret. We love it. So they re-seven. That's what, like two years after it?

But, you know, there's no fucking DGs back then. If a movie was a hit at that scale, they would re-release it every year. You know what I would love to see in theaters right the second? Cabaret. Sounds great. Number five, number ten, is a movie called Law and Disorder. I have to look it up. I don't know this.

There's so many, like, visualantes. Carol O'Connor, Ernest Borgne. Oh, I know. And you're telling me there's law and a disorder in this one? And you're telling me there's short. shirts are tucked in properly, right? Nothing rumpled, sleeves all the way down. Nary a belly in sight.

I'm feeling a little anxious about this one. Let me run the plot here by you. In the crime infested New York City of the 70s, two residents and friends played by Carol O'Connor and Ernest Borgnine, so, you know, grumpy barrel shaped white guys. Decide to join the auxiliary wing of the New York City

Police Department to help take back their neighborhood from criminals? Do you think they do that in a responsible way? Vincent can be called it a gentle Oh, okay, okay. Sometimes disruptively funny movie. Wow. This is all important practice for taxi driver.

You guys need to watch all of these before doing that episode. Maybe this is more of just a straightforward comedy. Maybe. Alpert Finney is an uncredited producer on it? What the fuck is this movie? Sure, I'll produce it for you. I didn't know uncredited producers was a thing.

Because when Finney produced, he would talk. like his character near Brokevich. It's one of... Aaron! It's one of Angelo Bata Lamenti's first credits, but he did it under the name Andy Baddale. There you go. He was trying to pass.

Or maybe Andy Badale. And then they tried to give him some espresso, and he went, shit. And they were like, oh, fuck, this guy's Italian. He's Italian. It's just crazy

that one of the Simpsons writers went in the fucking submersible before it blew up. Yes. Yes, it is. That's all. Would you ever go in a fly? submersible.

No. Nor I. I'm going to answer for you on that one and it is no. All right. Ben is sending us ad copy and I got to go pick up my daughter so I think we should bring. Ben and I have to go see Toy Story 5 again. Oh. Ben smiling.

I signed up for it. Okay. I liked it a lot. No, I liked it too. What Ben said to me was I really want to see that again before. Wow. It's rare for me. It was interesting again with my daughter on time.

I will be seeing it with my daughter on time. I will be seeing it with my daughter. my children probably on Sunday as well. They are, I don't think I've told you this, Griffin, that like they didn't think they were into it because, like, they don't have a lot of toy story knowledge. It's not like one of our movies. And then we saw the trailer before Hoppers or something like that.

And they're both like, oh, yeah, absolutely. That trailer nailed it for them. I truly wonder what my daughter's going to make of it. But she's more a fan of the other films. Anecdotally, I mean, she loves the other films and she loves Jesse. I think that'll make great for her. It is.

But I just, I truly wonder if the message will resonate with her at all because it's a little over her head. at this age, I would say. Inectodally, I've witnessed a couple examples of kids who do not previously like Toy Story being interested in this one and or loving this one. It certainly looks like it's going to make a lot of money. The pump feels very primed. I was so surprised at it.

Because, like, Charlie, again, like he's 10, like, we saw Disclosure Day. Like, he's ready for The Odyssey. But, like, Toy Story, it works. My 10-year-old little cousin, who always loves to say that he hates the Toy Story movies, a thing that's really challenging me, testing me, the foulest mouth I've ever seen. He's rebelling against you. I'm so sorry. He did say to me,

when does Toy Story 5 come out? I can't wait to see them. We got to take George and Charlie to the movies together someday. That's the dream. That's interesting. Mm-hmm. They might get along.

Okay. All right. We're going to make it happen. Someday, we're going to make it happen. Ready. Katie, thank you so much for being here. Thank you guys. Katie, your eyes.

Welcome on. I check with Griffin and David. We'll find my way back in whenever you'll have me. Auntie of Blankies. Was that the nickname we gave you last time? I think so, yeah, because Emily is the mother. and I think I get to be the auntie.

So I will gladly take that role. Prestige Junkie. Yeah, prestige junkie at the Ancler. Me and Chris Rosen talking about award stuff and I have guests on, including you guys, whenever the time comes. I didn't have a tour episode that people were really normal about. That was one of those social clips that like, I was like, why am I still getting notifications about this?

Five months later. It was so crazy. It was insane. Please get your next hottest take ready and come on back on. I will. Well, Big Jim's got to announce another episode. Avatar movie, but I'll think of something else. Oh, and I have to say Fighting in the War Room because David Irrit never mentions it.

No. Someone's got to do it. We tried to make him do it. Ben Hosley had guests not that long ago. We never have guessed. That was so fun. It's like you and John Rastonberger are like the only two guests who've ever come on that. John Ratzinger.

That was like 15 years ago. Really? I have guessed it on fighting in the war room many times. I don't know about many. It's usually too lazy for it. But yeah, Ben came on and talked about slow Christmas. It was a great time. Yeah, you came on one time and talked about the Tick, I think.

I'm also on the iconic episode. I think Griffin is too where David is getting married and we're all together. Oh, yes. Oh, on the porch. That was a porch record. A porch record. You're right. I have a picture of you guys recording that.

I'm going to find it. That's a good picture. Yeah, we did a lot of like wedding episodes because we're all getting married for a long time. Because they just had their 10th anniversary, right? No, it'll be next year because Charlie was a baby. I had just left New York and I drove back up for that wedding. So it's in, it's in, you're right. You're right.

It was 27. No, no, 17. It was 17. It was 17. It was 17. It was 17. It was 17. and she was turning 29.

I'm finding this picture of you two sitting on the porch and yakken. Yeah. That's what we did back then. That's what we did back then. And it's very different from what we're doing right now. Yacking in a room indoors with a porch. Oh, my God, you guys are so cute. I'm sitting this picture.

I don't want to see. I'm going to have a fucking existential crisis looking at this picture. Try having a 10-year-old where you're like, you were just a baby, weren't you? Now, all the listeners can share in it. Anyone who's listened to Titanic episode recently. A decade of dreams, a decade of dreams of Charlie. You'll be back? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I'm on back in. You can't get rid of me. Charlie will be back. Oh, my God. I would love, especially because you're not doing video, he does not want to be like on video anything. But coming and talking to a microphone, I think he could do it.

Yeah. He's got to come back to his birthday. Yeah, he's got to do it. We're coming. New York City's own. He's native. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe.

Tune in next week four. taxi driver with Tracy Letts. We apologize in advance. The episode's a little short. We were facing a couple hard outs. It's the longest episode we've ever done. I fortunately, by you. Four hours? Yes.

Luckily, I murder everyone in the room when it's done. Yeah, it's admissible in court this episode. Just kidding. In my memory, as long as it was, a very good episode. Yes, I think so. Yeah. We were pretty locked in with all Tracy. That's part of why it's stressful.

It's like, we're really trying to, like, be, present and effective with Mr. Tracy Letts. But he also is like, I'm going. for it. Yeah, he's like, how long? How long is the record? And I was like, don't nobody tell him. Well, I feel like when you have your friends come in and try to break the record, you can be like, no, shut up, you're not doing it. But when it's Tracy Letts, even though he is your friend, he's Tracy Letts. You kind of have to let the man cook. He threw the pilcer down on the table and he started cooking. Over on the Patreon,

recently we just put out Resident Evil Apocalypse. It's the end of the Resident Evil franchise. I don't know they're former. God, this photo, Jesus Christ. Look at these babies. I look better now. You can sign up for that as well as other bonus content over at Patreon.com slash blank check.

Do I look better now? I'm going to say yes. I think you actually might, yes. I think I might. I'm looking at a picture of me taking that weekend. I looked pretty good. I need to tell myself this. Yeah.

And as always kiss my grits. What was I going to say about Marshall Lucas stained glass? I don't know. Who knows? Something funny. Yeah. It would have been really good. Imagine the funniest thing.

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hossley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas, and our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery and the Great American novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick.

Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at Blank CheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions. Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if?

Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home.