Blank Check with Griffin & David - Alice in Wonderland with Todd VanDerWerff

Episode Date: March 31, 2019

Griffin and David welcome back Todd VanDerWerff (Vox) to discuss 2010's CGI fantasy Alice in Wonderland! Together they examine Burton's greatest failure. 

I try to believe in as many as six impossible things before breakfast. Count the malice. One, the drinks that make you shrink. Two, there are foods that make you grow. Three, animals can talk. Four, cats can disappear. Five, there's a place called on to land. Six, I can slay the podcast.

Yeah, this is the one. This is going to kill us. Right? Right, this is it. This is the one we're dead. We're dead. Remember it, this is it. This is the one I'll be remembered for because it ends in a murder suit. How many is this for you guys? How many burdens?

At this point, 21 in total? You fucking say it's that many, Jesus. Why do I ever let you make me do it? Maybe it's 17. This is the one where I was like, what, what, what, what, why, why? He's not good, he's bad director. And he made me do it.

So much. For more movies. One, two, three, four, five. This is like third to last. We've done almost all of them. All right. We've been going pretty out of order because of guests and so. I believe it's 20 with Dumbo.

Okay, so be 20, we haven't done Dumbo. Jesus. I would argue we have a couple good ones left. Okay. We've saved two of the have a couple good ones left. Okay. We've saved two of the only good late period ones. Oh, you mean, right, because we have not recorded Sweeney, even though we're ahead of it. Right. And big guys, you like less than me, but I'm gonna fight for it.

Yeah, you're gonna lose. I will not fight for this. I'm pointing for big guys is like bringing like an eye to a gun fight. Okay, here kind of point, the eyes are big. Big guns. Big guns. I'm gonna bring my big guns. Okay. Maybe I'll like it this time, I don't know. I think you will, it big guns big guns. I'm gonna bring my big guns. Okay.

Maybe I'll like it this time. I don't know. I think you will. It's a great movie. So yes it is. It's a masterpiece. This film is not good. What's the film? What's the podcast? What's your name? This is kind of a key crux point. I'm getting to it. I'm just saying this is kind of maybe this is the one that breaks us as you said. Maybe this is the one that breaks us, but you go. Maybe this is the one that breaks us, but you go, this is why I never want to cover Tim Burton. And I go, this is why we have to cover Tim Burton. Honestly, I don't think I said that because I figured this would be the fun episode

where we're all yelling and stuff, right? Like this would be, you know, so bad it's good. And our guest today is the Screamin' Jay Hawkins, a podcast, and get ready for the yelling. A man with a fiery temper. He's got to go talk to Carlson on the studio. He's got a bone in his nose. I want to be introduced first.

I think that's only appropriate. Okay, that's the correct or it. Lazy gentleman, our very special guest, Todd Vendorwarf. Hello, hello, hello, from Vox. From Vox? Sure. Host of I think you're interesting. Yes, which is soon to become another thing.

It's being really this point is probably well, no, it's very soon. It's it's real launching April 11th. It's in like a crystal. Yeah, like absolute. Yes, exactly. That's absolutely. That was my shadow.

Tyler. No, we, we were going to originally, you know, kind of come up with a new focus for, I think, you're interesting because when we talked to people about the title, they were confused by the title. They were like, when did I record a podcast? They thought that they were the eye and I think you're interesting. Oh, clearly, I stated that I was the eye. They thought it was a show in which very famous people interview Todd Van Der Waals.

Yeah, I guess. I guess. But yeah, so we were like, we're going to do a bunch of different interview formats. We're going to do that. And then we kind of came up with this idea. It's called Primetime. It's for podcast fans. It's, you must remember this, but for television, it's stories from the history of television, things like that.

That's good. Is that going to be its own show? Yes. And we got part of the... Yeah, I think it's going to take over the feed. We're figuring that out now as we speak now that it's March when you're listening to this, we know it already. So you'll probably know by now. But yeah, it's going to, it's, we got so excited about that idea.

We were like, well, we can't do both at the same time. My hope is that we'll bring back, I think, are interesting, but like as a limited series type thing. Do a couple of years, little many series. I'll say, when you posted, Mahershala was your final episode, right? Before the reburning, which was an incredible episode. Yeah. And then you did, like, sort of, not a great hit, but you're like, here are some of my

favorite moments. Yeah. You are such a fucking good interviewer. Thank you. I was like, listening to it, like, taking a back,, like you genuinely, I've been on both sides of this thing now, I've interviewed people, I've been interviewed, I'm bad at asking questions, I find that often people ask the same stupid questions.

When I listen someone on your show, you ask at least three questions that's clear they have never been asked before. And you actually hear like your guests go like, wow, that's actually a good question. And they have to stop and consider it because you're not asking them the same thing that everyone else does. Sure, sure. I'm so bad at you. What did I ask you that you were you didn't get because you've both been on the

show. That's true. Yeah. I famously called Mission Impossible Ghost Protocol some removing the work. Right. And that was your key question you asked David in response to that was why are you such a fucking idiot? Of course it came out of Christmas. You know, I don't remember how you phrased the question, but I feel like when we were talking up performance stuff, I somehow was able to verbalize things in a cleaner way than I ever have before. Yeah, you're right. Which I think must have been the way you pointed, because usually I'm a mess when people ask me how acting works. Yeah, yeah. I was acting work. They don't get me started. I have no idea. I'm a mess. Who are your guys? Who are my guys? That I can't answer Michael Keaton. Someone's calling. Turn your phone off. I thought I put on silence. Why is it still ringing? I don't

really understand Griffin's relationship with his phone. It's very antagonistic. Really? I think there needs to be some kind of intervention between you and your phone. Yeah, I throw it into the river and then people can't complain about me not responding because there's not even a passageway. Todd, back onto the point, you're a very good interviewer. So you still will be interviewing people on my insight on one. So the thing about it is that each episode's

going to have interviews in it and my hope is that we'll run the most interesting of those interviews as like a bonus that you'll get. Like you'll get the main episode, which is the you must remember this episode on the first days and then the next Monday, you'll get like yours are our long chat with Aaron Sorken. You're all history. Yeah, that sounds great. Well, of course.

Which you're walking talk with Aaron. Yeah, that's the plan. We got it. Yeah, we're just going to walk and talk. Wilshire Boulevard. At least, Roland. Stroll. I mean, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, what if he's like, I'mshire Boulevard at least roll and stroll I mean yeah

Exactly. Yeah, what if he's like I'm rebranding I'm Aaron Strollin From now on the all strolls. I used to be as a stroller line. I used to be all that sorkin and torquin right Then came walk and talk and what's he where I was trolling her all and Ben is loving is he directing a movie? He's directing the Chicago seven movie. Yeah. Okay. Oh, this game wasn't bad. Seth Rogan, Sasha Brandt Cohen.

Wait, that's who's in it. Yup. All right. Anyway, my guest today, Griffin Newman, yes, there we go. There we go. We finally have a pro in the show. And tell me what this show is, because I forget.

Name of the show is a blank check with Griffin and David. How's he? Interesting. because I forget. The name of the show is a blank check with Griffin and David. How's it going? Interesting. Interesting directors, filmographies, the crazy passion projects they get to make after they have massive success early on. Sometimes those checks clear. Sometimes they bounce.

He's so good at this, David. It's true. We should just quit. Also, like, Todd, like, your voice is like, calm. Good voice. Yes. I'm good hands when you're speaking. That's right.

I really try to be Malif Lewis, if you will. Well, speaking of wonderful voices, today we're talking about Alice in Wonderland. I hate you. A film that is the equivalent of someone screaming straight into your eyeballs for two hours. And then just like dumping lemons in them or something. You know, I was really the last time I was on or something about Munich. I love Munich.

Munich is one of my favorite movies of all time. So I was like, I told David, I'm coming to New York and he was like, oh, you gotta do Alice in one of like, he knows. I remember your last favorite movies. He said, you have no idea how much Todd hates this. I remember you a few years back just ranting online, I think about the the butterwacken scene. Yes.

And just how insane it is to think that that was a scene, the movie, not only us scene, a sort of like climactic, you know, fulfilling scene. That is the point where this movie crosses the threshold into actual like felony. Right. That is the point where this movie crosses the threshold into actual, like, like felony. Right. That's the point at which like, the FBI issues are like, we've seen enough.

Yeah, you know, like, um, um, in a movie that was successful. Cute. Like, if you watch that and you saw the photo I can see and someone would be like, and this is why the film, of course, was a flop, you'd be like, of course, I mean, you can, as you can see from the evidence on screen. The photo again happens in the last 10 minutes of this film,

but I think legally theaters had to issue refunds that people came and complained post-Futter back in. Here, I found it. Okay, so there's an Allison Wunderland wiki. Oh, blank. He linked to. A specific Burton, Allison Wunderland wiki? Yeah.

Futterwack. It's a dance in the Allison Wunderland movie. This is not like some Lewis Carroll. No, no, no, because he's taken not he, but I mean, this film is taking like the Jabberwock, it's taking elements from other looking on the screen. Futterwacken is fully off the dome from Lenda Woolverton.

Allison Wonderland, star Johnny Depp, injured him on the set of his new movie by doing the Futterwack apparently. So someone else did it. I don't know, a stunt double. Here's a tasteless question I'm gonna ask. Not a lot else on this Wikipedia page. I gotta tell ya.

It does happen on the frab just Jay. I'm going to ask a tasteless question. Did the Futterwacken ruin Johnny Depp? Is that the moment? Where his brain breaks? Cause I feel like this is a motel where I'll go, like, maybe I'm getting tired of this guy's performances, but maybe he literally breaks himself physically

doing the footerwack in, and then his mind breaks along with him. I think it's demonic. I think he, that's what I'm saying. Like, he channeled some ancient ghost that caught him now. Did he somehow conjure pinhead by doing the footerwack in that moment? He sees sort of just not in terms of Johnny Depp as a person and his abuse of treatment

of his wife and other various, you know, public. Which I'm gonna say, you know, I don't like it all. Right. I think is tremendously bad. I will say the year after this is Rango, which is a film I enjoy and I like Johnny Depp and I don't know when he shot that. He shot the CS face. Right, exactly.

So I guess you could say in Rango, he's sort of trying. Right. Taurus is the year after this or two years after this. Taurus is the same year as this. It was nominated for two Golden Globes this year. They nominated him in drama and comedy. I believe that's right. We're gonna double check.

Or they nominated twice in comedy. Did he get two comedy nominations? Because I know they put tourists as a comedy. And I can't imagine them classifying this as a drama. This was a comedy, let's see. Did he have two out of the five best actor nominations? He did. But then.

Right. So this is the moment I think everyone just goes like, we have let the song on too long. I was just going to say in 2009 he's in public enemies, which I know is not a movie that everyone likes, but I will say, I like that movie. And it's one of the last times. And we're gonna talk about it again on the talk, right?

And it's one of the last times he's making an effort, some effort. I mean, famously, my command did walk up to him on set and said like, I have your problem, I figured it out. You can't act, you're a terrible act. Do you know that story? That's a real story. And Johnny Depp was like, I will not speak to this man again.

And it was, there was like four months of production left. Yeah. Which is sort of, I think Michael Man's like one of those old NBA coaches who's like, well, you got to, you know, break them down and then build them back up. Right? You know, and like Johnny Depp was like, why is this man saying I can't act? There is that weird thing though. Like, there are so many incredibly successful actors

and not just people who are movie stars, but people who are taken seriously as actors who on a fundamental technical level cannot really act in some how they work. Right. They don't have this sort of formal skills one might associate with the job. Right. And there's just some magic thing and they have an understanding of that specific medium. I can't wait to read you five button globe nominees. But they know how to get it in the camera and they know how to work around editing and all that sort of stuff.

There are also tons of people I've worked with where it's just like, you're a really good actor and then you watch the footage and you're like, this does not translate at all. There's a rate actors who cannot make it work on camera. On the other hand, if Michael Mann told me I was a bad actor, I, someone who doesn't even try to act to throw myself into a river.

I would just be like, yes, sir. Yes, yes, sir. I'm sorry. But you had to have a guy with no formal training. He was a rocker. Nicholas Cage was like, you should do movies. They give you a lot of money. That's truly the story.

The 80s, baby. They were like L.A. like rock club rats. And he was like, honestly, you're good looking. They'll probably give you a million. John Depp was like, how much wine could I buy with a million dollars? Right. Then he became like a teen hard throb. He hated being a teen hard throb

and he defined himself by making weird choices, right? And the Tim Burton films were seen as somewhat of a high point for those. But up until his point, it was like, he makes weird choices, but they always seem correct. He's always in line with the movie. And this is the movie where the Tim Burton, Johnny Depp, Weirdness becomes like Goldbember, where it's like, I don't know what the angle is.

Right, and also it's like, where it is this big, when, where do you begin and it ends? Like, yeah, are you a person even? We have already recorded Charlie and the Chocolate Factory at this point. Whether or not you like that movie? I think he's making like a coherent choice. That's a phenomenon.

Yeah, it's good in that movie. I think so too. Right. He's kind of like amazingly funny and what we'll talk about. We'll have litigated at that point. Right. I know so people don't like it and a lot of that is just, oh, it's disrespectful. It's crazy.

He's creepy, but I think he's funny and it's weird. And the character makes sense internally. Internally. It may not be your willy-wanker, your image of willy-wanker. It's in sync with the movie and the consistent psychology. We talked about that.

We talked about it. This actually feels like the supermarkets sweeps challenge where they're like, okay, you have two minutes to raid this prop closet and come up with affectations. We grew up on kept just being like, why does he look like that? Like, what does it mean?

And I was still like, well, he's like a mad at her. Right, but he's literally like two minutes, like pulling the eyelashes off the wall, taking a card that says, Scottish broke. Yeah, they sort of play it like he's got borderline personality disorder because sometimes he kind of becomes violent. Yeah, this is a real realistic movie in that regard. I feel like there's like a contest

where you got to make a short film in 24 hours. Yes, right. 24 hours about feels like that as a performance. I think you're giving too much credit to say he had 24 hours Confidence 24 minutes. All right The five nominees for best actor Public sister cast the film is Alice one Correct the five nominees. Can you tell me you can tell me two of the number? 2010 it's 2010 so the 2010 so we're talking We're talking black swan think about it man talking inception. I'm trying to think of the films that year Here's a hint. I'm gonna give you now you know is king speech is it the king speech here? Yeah, but that's in drama

Right, no, but I'm just trying to give myself a year of film But just to give you a couple hints and these are not are not big hints. One, you know two of the nominees, two of the five. First, Johnny Depp. Johnny Depp for Alice in Wonderland, and Johnny Depp for the Taurus. Two performances we're still laughing at today. Ha, ha, ha, ha. That's so crazy to think about.

The Green Book won best comedy. Yes. Comedy. Yes. Anyway. Although when you talk to old people who love Green Book, that's their note. They go, it's so funny. Yeah. I mean, when I talk to old people who love green book, that's their note. They go, it's so funny. Yeah. I mean, when I saw, when I saw in a theater, it was like laugh a minute.

I will say like not for me, so much, but like, it feels weird to classify it that way. But when people defend that movie, that's Italian for pretty good is, is a great laugh. There is some laugh lines. There's a laugh line. Anyway, okay. I will just warn you, the three other movies, two of them basically were not released. The third one, like, was released and was a anyway. Okay. I will just warn you, the three other movies, two of them basically were not released. The third one was released and was a flop. Okay, so don't cast around thinking of like the big movies of 20 times. Two of them are like equivalent to like the laser seeker.

Exactly. You remember when hella Mary got in on my for best actress, months before the movie was released? Yeah, for Leather's. Yeah. Okay, I have a guess. Is Yoon McGregor and Sam and Finkley, yeah, I'm an incorrect. I think that's like the year before something. You know, that's

something. It's summer. What is it? That type of zone? One of the one of them I really thought this movie went unreleased. The winner I know this movie was released. And in fact, we were just talking about a Bernie's version. Paul G. Mottie wins best actor for Bernie's first. Correct. And it was one of the things when he won when people were people like, what's this movie new? So like, I guess he has to win in these five. It's the only one that people even agreed was a good performance. I remember it being that way, but that was one of those things where Sony was like, we're going to do a quick qualifying release and then we'll release a wide later. And then they never released a wide later.

Barney's version of about, like, you know, he's Jewish and his stomach hurts and he sleeps a little bit late. Don't ask David. You want to get Barney's version of the story. Barney get in here. I think that's literally, it's like, it's by like the Canadian Philip Roth. Okay. Yeah, Mordeky Riccler, I think he's.

He's like, you know, an angsty, like neurotic Jew writer about like the perils of masculinity. And it's a story about like how many times he love and lost. You know, it's a movie, but if you always went, like I don't see Paul Giamatti dating enough beautiful women on screen, but if you always went like, I don't see Paul GM, I'd dating enough beautiful women on screen by this version is like, we can give you like 12 in one movie. Okay. So he was in my pike.

Oh, yeah. Who else is in it? I don't fucking know. It's got a good cast of actresses. Well, it's so he like you used up his quota on that. He did. Yeah. Okay. He did. Right. It's like Paul. GM I'm doing his. Got him. Sandler movie. You got many driver. Uh, David Kronenbergs and I can't get this cast. All right. Two others.

I got you have. And do they exist more or less than Barney's? One exists more. One less. One exists more. Was one actually released? Why?

Yeah, it was released. Why I saw it in theaters. It's a piece of shit. It's a piece of shit, but did we laugh? David did we laugh? As a nation did we laugh. I think this movie of comedy is somewhat outrageous. I guess it's a romantic comedy, sort of.

It was a prestige play in a way. It's from a prestige director, but like a bad one. Ah, he's a hot young star. There's a lot of sex in this movie. Does it even exist? I don't think it exists. No, no, no, no. Jake Chilling Hall loves another drugs. Jake Chilling Hall loves another drug.

And then I have a guess about the other one. I might be totally off, but if I'm right, this is a good poll. Dustin Hoffman, good luck, Charlie. No, although, oh my God. Right. The other person has been fully canceled. One of the most canceled men in Hollywood. One of the most, oh my God. Right. The other person has been fully canceled. One of the most canceled men in Hollywood. One of the most, I would say.

Top of the heat. Yeah. Brett Ratner for Tower of the East. Yeah, right. Once again, I'm going to restate Brett Ratner for Tower of the Spacey, right? Spacey. Spacey was in the home. Oh, my God.

She's not beyond the sea here. That's not in line. Not beyond the sea, not in lines. He's not nine lines. I mean, really, I don't think this was released. It has one of those posters where you're like, oh, someone made this at home. And he's the lead. Let me give you the other four actors above the title on this poster. Okay.

Barry Pepper, Kelly Preston, John Love Itz's Rochelle LeFevere. Well, okay, this is Casino Jack. There it is. That's my Jack Abramoff, right? Yep, yep. And the final film of George Hickenloop. Uh huh, but like talk, I don't think that movie was really release. I don't think so.

You know, I'm sure I had like a limited release. You know, did a lot of press for that movie? Hit me. John Love It's. Okay. He was ready for it to be his like Right, I love how we both knew exactly. Yes, we were thinking it made one point oh million dollars at the box office Which is a lesson. It's 12 million dollar budget. I will admit It also made a grand total of $40,000 over seats.

Wow. People overseas. Anyway. That's one of those final and dignity. Just one of the wildest indictments of the Golden Globes is comedy category where people are always like, no, it's good that they have a comedy category because it's good to recognize comedies. And I'm like, oh, yeah, all those comedies they recognize. Oh, oh, oh, chuckle, chuckle, chuckle. I remember the early 2010s were really bad for them being able to find movies that were actually good to put in the comedy Academy. Sure, right. I don't know. They kind of overlooked a lot of the appatiles. They overlooked a lot of other stuff that like

It's actually funny when when American theatrical comedy with Stolver O'Bust They were choosing to nominate like oh, we're gonna pretend that like Helen Miran and Hitchcock is a comedy Sure Oh, we're gonna pretend that like Helen Miran and Hitchcock is a comedy. Sure. Yeah, I bet you, if I just took a comedy category from like any year, we could probably like rip on it for five minutes. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's how the globe started. Okay, save one in the chamber for later in the episode. Oh, sure.

Fine. All right, so, Alison Wonderland, last James Harvey was the year before, by the way. Oh, guys said good luck. You're close. Yeah, right. That's what it's called. I mean, it's called life. Blood transfer is the right one.

Yeah, okay. Alice in Wonderland, guys, what I was thinking about, and I wanted to say this on my, is this is 2010. Yeah. In 2011, you've got Thorne Captain America. And it feels like there's a real divide between like what Hollywood's cooking up there, you know what I mean?

Sure. Well, here's the other thing. I know this is the start of the remake, the Disney Remake's friend. Except it isn't. That's what's fascinating about this movie. It's not about this movie. Yeah.

That is the one thing that's thoroughly fascinating about this movie culturally. The second thing I would say is this is one of the few movies in history where it's like, its success is largely attributable to another movie. Which is, this comes out four months after Avatar. Right. And they just really sold its in 3D and it's a world you've never seen.

That's why I thought. I was like, I can't wait to join Wonderland. Right. The power of my real D glasses. And it was BAM. Post converted. Of course. Post like shit.

It looks like shit. It looks like shit. It's the ugliest movie ever made. This is my opinion. Not one frame of this movie looks good, except the real world stuff looks fine. Like, that's fine. So here's the four she's in one.

Here's the take I feel like you guys have a good drag before. I like all the real world stuff in this movie. No, I agree with you. I'm totally locked into the first 20 minutes of this film. 10. It's not that long. Really? Fuck.

I want to pretend it was longer. It's not. It's 10 minutes. I'm like, first 10 want to pretend it was long. It's not. It's time of the day. I'm like, first 10 minutes or five. This is kind of interesting seeing Tim Burton do a British period drama. First 10 minutes, Mio Asakowska has stuff to do. She's really good in the first 10 minutes.

It's shot very flatly. It's a little flat. There's a couple interest like the shot of all the people looking at her. That's the shot. That's the shot. Yeah, but yeah, a lot of the rest of it's like very boring reaction shots. But I think there's some good character development there. I like you go.

All right, now you're revving it too high. It's just fun. I'm gonna rock it a little. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no where it's like, man, maybe the guy has made every personal movie he could make. Maybe he said everything on the subject. And there was another thing where Hollywood was just like, make another thing, anything you want. He was like, okay, okay.

And then there came some point where he was like, I'm out. And they were like, okay, I'll just wander around then. And then the other thing is he becomes so successful that it's like, he can't really make outside or movies in the same kind of way. Well, he's trying though with this. Right, but I'm saying whereas like something like Edward Cesar Hanser, like this is palpable.

This is a guy still recovering from feeling completely removed from society. Sure. Now you're like, I don't know, he can't really like make it sing anymore. But what he's getting at in the first tenets of this movie I was like, this is a way that Timber could evolve.

It's just making movies about weird societal structures. Like, you know, like, oh, England manners. Like this is a kind of world that he can come at with a similar kind of confusion and a satirical edge without him having to make a movie that's about like a little Cesar Boy. And I was like, into it and then it's literally the moment she falls down the hole.

Into shit land. Right, I'm like, why do I it's literally the moment she falls down the hole into shitland right I'm like why do I now hate this movie suddenly and dramatically? It's a color of dirty dish. What literally? Right. It's a brown glorious 3d There's also this weird thing where like if like you don't know how to make a shot look good Especially in like TV or something. They're like let's add some app most Which is they just run a bunch of smoke on set. Right. Because it at least adds a little texture. And this movie does the CGI version of that. Right.

There's CGI apps. It just looks like distance fog. Right. It just looks like shitty effect. But I think they were just like this just looks like Candy Land and Hell. Look at that. They're like, add some AppMouse. What the fuck?

Make it tactile. Do it right. Yeah. Well, because this is like, there's money cost $200 million. Correct. And it's kind of all there on the screen and that I'm sure this was expensive to make. Like, it's not like you're looking at this

and it's not how do you know, I understand that to render a whole world here. The super, the, but where is the talent? The special thing supervisor, who worked on this movie said, like, far and away the most difficult job we've ever done. Right.

And I think part of that was, like, everyone got cocky when like, people were starting to do this like digital backflop. Avatar, these green screen movies, totally. Right, and it's like, Robert Rodriguez like kind of figured out how to do it himself and was also doing all of it himself.

Right, and he's a maniac and he works like too hard and he writes and cuts and edits and produces and everything, you know. And he was working off a comic where he could copy specific hard and he writes and cuts and edits and produces and everything. He was working off a comic where he could copy specific panels and all this shit. And like Cameron is. Cameron is very simple. It's like a cruise.

Cameron is like Cameron. Sure. And I think everyone's like Tim Burns, Chris, he could do something like this. And you watch this movie and it's like people still fucking drag us for being like, and on top of it all, the two of them like Avatar, watch this movie and try to not like Avatar.

Yeah, yeah, go watch Avatar. No, you don't even have to watch Avatar. Yeah, you do. I'm saying watch also, in Wonderland, the whole time you'll be like, you're right, Avatar is like a date. No, you have to go watch it. Can you drag you for liking Avatar? Oh yeah, all the time.

So hard, they act like it's our favorite movie of all time. Sure. Well, I mean, it is your favorite movie of all time. It is my favorite movie of all time. Of course, it's our favorite movie of the every morning. Avatar is my favorite movie. That's good favorite. David Texley every morning. Avatar's my favorite movie. That was good. I text you every morning, just dun-dun-na-na. That's a text.

I send you a voice memo of myself going, dun-dun-na-na. Boy, oh boy. I wonder where you blocked my number. Yes, this is one of those movies where they said, why would we shoot it in 3D? It's like cumbersome. Yeah, and James Cameraman later, right? I think it was like that is incredibly tough. Right. And we to this day you've got a lead-a-coming-out shot in 3D.

Look so there. The shot in 3D. You know, what surprise, surprise, the 3D is good. Yeah. I feel like this movie killed 3D in a way. It both like, obviously 3D is still around. Yeah, but a lot of people paid for the 3D and we're like, what the fuck, that sucked.

I'm not paying five bucks. Did clash of the Titans come out a month after this? Clash of the Titans came out before this. I can look it up. Oh, okay. I think this is definitely a bloom off the rose when people went like, oh, that was a one and a million thing, the avatar thing, like people are just going to be sloppy about this. But also the insane thing is like Linda Woolverton, who wrote or had writing credits on most of

the Disney Renaissance movies, right? Which are sort of very tight in their plot. You know, you're right. College of Titans is the next month. Okay, that's what I thought. That was another one. I feel like that's the final, right? Where people were like, it's literally like the arm and the head are in like different

dimensions. And the problem with most of these movies is the post conversion process makes them dark. So then like most theaters in America under project their movies. So you're just walking into a situation where everything looks like it's in silhouette or something. And also the post conversion process is essentially handing special effects people a live action film that is locked and saying can you animate a movie under this? Right. Like they then have to create three-dimensional CGI models to wrap the image around. And more and more, they like don't understand what that pipeline is.

Yeah. And they're like, we can just shoot any footage in hand to you and you'll turn it into 3D. that pipeline is. And we can just shoot any footage in hand to you and you'll turn it into 3D. And they're like, yeah, but it'll look like the feature on 2009 era televisions where you hit the 3D button. And it's like Larry King's eyes are popping out of his head. It's like a 3DS.

Right, right, it's like a 3DS essentially. Yes. Linda Wilverton, she wrote the Beauty and the Beast screen. Which are, these are like tight movies. Like she took these like big. Throughout the Lion King's way. Right. She wrote a little film called Allyson Wonderland,

a 2010 film by Tim Burton. Right, but she's on like the story team for all these decisions. She's on a story team for Aladdin and Mulan. Right. And she also wrote the Maleficent Screenplay. Yes. She also wrote the screenplay for a film

that I'm saying this on the air right now, is better than Alice in Wonderland. And that film is called Alice Through the Looking Glass. Oh, I, I'm team through the looking glass. I agree. I mean, it's only better in that this is the worst movie. Yeah, it's a little better. It's a little better.

It's a little better. I agree with that. It has weirdly, it sort of like has a narrative. Like it's not, it's a little better. It's a little better. It's a little better. I agree with that. Weirdly, it sort of like has a narrative, like, it's sort of a stupid narrative, but at least it has sort of like, there's sort of a task to accomplish. It's like, yes. Like, under the age old philosophical question, should you kill baby Hitler? It's just like, yes.

Right. And, you know, I mean, like, such grand cons fun and he's funny plays the concept of time as a person. It has like 20% practical sets, which that improvement. And it's also just made six years later. So just like, you know, the money, I don't know, it can be spent better. It looks a little clear. But what is so crazy is this movie is so sold on the visuals, the wonder, the 3D.

It's Tim Burton, his imagination's unfettered. It's a full 3D, you know, Tim Burton CGI Fantasia. And it was still, we were still the tail end of people being like Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland. It's gonna be twisted. Like genuinely. Yes. Like when this came out, the-

People were like- The Hatter poster. All the posters look like that. People like, wow, he looks like a demon like, whoa, he's gonna spook kids with this shit. I mean, this is his highest grossing film. I'm sure. By a good margin.

This just, this feels like the first movie where Tim Burton realized he could get residuals from hot topic if he tried hard enough. I was gonna say, so if you- I think if you adjust Batman would beat this movie, but that's it. Adjusted yes. But talk about like cultural things with this movie, right?

Okay, so like the rise and fall, like the high point and the low point simultaneously of 3D filmmaking, right? But the other thing is, I think this is this weird threshold moment where Disney starts to become cool. Disney had always been like nerdy or childish. Yeah, you're right, the sort of kingdom hearts moment.

The cosmic. The cosmic. Right, it's like you can buy like an edgy Lion King shirt now. Whereas like Disney's brand throughout my childhood was more like, babies. Well, there was also like parents know that they can trust Disney to entertain their child

without being too fucking weird or political. It's gonna be just a Disney movie and you're gonna buy the white clamshell VHS. Right. Right. And then when you like got old, you were like, I don't want those fucking sanitize the Disney-fied versions ofHS. Exactly. Right, before you. And then when you got old, you were like, I don't want those fucking sanitized, the Disney-fied versions of things.

Sure. That's the Gen X, like you get old, and then you go, like, me, Disney, they whitewash everything. And do you know he was a Nazi? Sure. And I feel like this generation that's cussing right with all of some wonderland are like,

wait, we can just buy ironic Disney shirts? Like, we can still like Disney, but seem above it because we're like re-owning it in a post-modern way. Except those shirts are still manufactured by Disney. Disney's coffers start doubling in these years. This is when they're also buying every brand in sight. Right.

This is when they buy Marvel. They buy Marvel, I think, maybe the year after. We talked about it like, of men. Like, start with a 2012. about it like starting the 2012. They buy Star Wars in 2012. They buy, I think they buy Marvel this year. I think they buy a 2010, because I work at the Disney store in 2011. And they've had Marvel for a year.

They have to, they bought it in 2009. Did you have to dress as Johnny Depp's mad hatter? Well, you worked at the Disney store. No, because the Bloom's author was a little bit. Okay. I think they're moving on to, they're so topical there. But I'll tell you, like when I work, what was the hot shit then?

What was the hot shit then? Cars two, cars two fever. Mm. You have no fever? It was more of a low. Kids could not stop talking about Sidley the spy jet. Excuse me? Sidley the spy jet?

Are you having a stroke? They still haven't stopped talking about it. Jason Isaacs playing the role of Sidley the spy jet. What if there's like one kid who just still has not stopped talking about the fucking spy jet? Sidley? Do you know there's a moment in cars two where they're having a car chase and an airport and Sidley gets on the runway and he goes, Climb inside me.

No, I didn't know that. And his ramp comes down and the cars drive inside his butt. And then there's a scene that takes place inside Sidley. He then becomes a location. He's a point. Yeah, this wasn't aware. But he's like living and there's like, I just want, I want to imagine he was like a senator who's like, are the good people of Missouri aware that there's a scene and cause to who are Sidley, I'm reading from the uh... record here said leave the space jet it's a said the spot is a character and a location is that right senator

maybe just just try to break this down for us also in disney loses its old reputation and gains a reputation for weird perverted shit going on in all smooth is that right right and the fact that the spy chat right yes yes that was the same guy who made like put a penis and uh and started shit going on in all its movies. Is that right? Yeah, and the cause of the spy jet. Right, right. Yes, yes. That was the same guy who made, like, put a penis in a little mermaid or whatever.

He came back for it to do the spy jet and they were like, Alan! Sex in the clothes and all that. What if it turned out that those were Linda Woolverton's contribution? Right, it's easy. Can you make one of the spires of King Triton's castle

look like a peen? No, but I remember like, can you make one of the Spires of King Triton's Castle look like a peen? No, but I remember like at this time, Disney was in this like rebuilding stage, right? They're buying out all these properties. They've been taking these big swings of like, we were not popular with boys. Sure. So it's like, let's make a $200 million Tron movie.

Can Allison Wonderland kind of be a tweener because we really centralized the mad hatter and boys like Johnny Depp, pirates is their one boy franchise. Of course, their solution to this ends up being just by Star Wars and Marvel, but at this point, they're trying to make in-house big boy franchises. And what's weird about this movie is,

it's never positioned as this is Tim Burton doing a new version of Disney's Alice in Wonderland. This movie has no relation to Disney's Alice in Wonderland. This movie is a weird sequel to an Alice in Wonderland that was never made. It has sort of winks at Disney's Alice in Wonderland, little wing. We do the flashback that the girl is wearing a very similar outfit. She's wearing the bright dress.

She's wearing the bright dress and she is of course a child rather than a 20 year old. But not the designs really match the Disney characters. It doesn't have any of the songs or music. It's an entirely different plot. Right, you're saying it's not like the jungle book or something where it's like trying to hue pretty closely to the plot of the Disney animated movie, the jungle book. That's the other way I think,

because you go like Disney animation starting to get back upon its feet at this point, right? Like, Tangled had come out the year before. No, the same year. It's not like 2010. I think you're right. Yeah, 2010. Here it does need 2010 movie.

Yeah. Obviously, their big hit is Toy Story 3. Right. TS-2. TS-2. Yeah. And then Alice, they all said Tangled. Right.

They all said Tron Legacy. Right. Those were their only hits. Yeah. They had two year dining and flocks. Yeah. The Prince of Persia movie. Right. Humongous flop. We're trying to get boys. And the sorcerers apprentice, a gigantic flop trying to get boys. They also released some movies like Secretariat and when in Rome, you again, these are Disney movies. When I was now Disney is basically like

every movie, Captain America's in it every single one wait secretary in the Bojack movie Yep, yeah, there's the Bojack movie. Oh wow. I didn't realize that was real old dogs I didn't realize old dogs was Disney. Oh, yes, it is because he had made Wildhugs which was Disney I think at that point it was touchstone and by this point tons of them with the wildhog story That's the one where your dad was like, we're seeing that movie. Yeah, exactly, exactly. That was like right down the middle of my dad.

It's we wouldn't saw it. Have I? What do you think? You loved it. Wildhugs down Periscope, Gal Van Dwarfs favorite movies. Are those his one and no, Periscope?

Lots of those movies. That dirty submarine movie from the 90s. That movie is good. Is that Kelsey grammar? That should be a bent choice. Oh, yeah, I love that movie. I would get down periscope. I just remember I had a kill on a dick jokes.

Oh, yeah. Of course. Yeah, Michaela's gravy is. Is Tom Arnold. Tom Arnold, right? Which one is Roberto Schneider in? Is he in Michaela or down periscope? You talking about Rob Schneider?

Senior Roberto. I believe you see. You mean, upside down exclamation point, Rob? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it?

Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it?

Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? Oh, you mean, you see it? It does have Ron. Please eat this crow pie. It has Lauren Holly. Apparently Harry Dean Stanton and Rip torn and Bruce Dern and Willie Macy. This thing's loaded with character actors.

How many is this the USS character actor? Can you quickly run down how many Academy Award nominations the cast of? Well, Schneider is 14. Right. No, because like Macy has one torn has one. Yeah, torn only has one, right? Right. Dern have two, maybe one. I think he has two. I think torn only has one, right? Right. Dirt have two, maybe one.

I think he has two. I think Dirt has two, yeah. Got a lot of. Supporting for coming home, lead for Nebraska. Is that it? I think. Yeah. Yep, that's it.

Wow. Kelsey Grammer, I don't know. How many C.G.G.G.G.G.G.G.G. Oh, well, they nominated him for Beast. Thank you. Right, right, right. That's Beast. Yeah.

That's Beast and a supporting role. That's beast in a supporting role. That's beast in a supporting role. My father doesn't trust fiction. He thinks it's all based on lies, which technically it is, but down periscope and wild hogs. So what he likes is the versimelitude of those two. He thinks those are the only two American films to tell it like it is. Why does ghost go down? They do.

You got to bring them down sometimes. And look, and those hogs are wild. True. You got to admit, David, you got to admit. Two macy's. Your dad is a macy fan, I guess. Is Bill macy his favorite star? It might be, you know, I always thought it was Tim Allen because he loved, you know, he

loved on the home improvement when you go around. I know they're true. He's Bill Macy. Yeah. Tim Allen really was. He had the courage to tell the truth when the rest of us didn't. Is that things, Sean? You can have a show with the girl.

Last but not least, on the... Yes, it is. It's a good head. They've replaced two of his daughters now, so it's about a white man who doesn't realize his daughters are changing the different people on the list. Do you know that Caitlin Deaver was one of the daughters on the show, that? She's still there. She's the one who's still there?

She's the one... She's up to college now So she comes in every five episodes and is like dad and then she goes left the other two left Did you know that there is a federal law that any film set in the Appalachian Mountains has to have Caitlin Diver And did you know that I saw a movie at Sundance where I was like where is she where is she and then it's I was like here She is I love her Where is she? And then she's like, here she is. I love her. I love her.

Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin Deever. It's just like, yeah, does your movie have moonshine and or like a snake handling in it? Caitlin Deever is involved. He now has a Chinese exchange student living with him. That's what I said now. I bet he has nothing to say about that.

Oh, you know what? He doesn't. He's very, yep. He keeps it to himself. Do you see say things like, tell me more about your culture. He really't. He's real quiet. He keeps it himself. Do him stuff. Does he say things like, tell me more about your culture? He really does. He's respectful and quiet. And then he just, you know, he vlogs later. It's like I learned so many fascinating things about China.

He vlogs. That's vlogging part of what. What are the premise of the show? Is that he vlogs, David? Now he's made me mad. It's like a sex in the city with vlogging. Yeah. Is he vlogging like, hey, this is the last man standing

with my daily report? Like is it like he's in an apocalyptic movie? No, he has like access to like visual effects and like avid and all this stuff. It's like he wants to do a thing where he was in a CGI car driving and ran into an iceberg. It's great. What? But the only thing I remember is the episode where the girl wears the Garfield head. Is that ever?

That's, that's the first where the girl wears the Garfield is that ever that's that's that's the first That's all the stuff. I'm who is the first Mandy Yeah, have you seen every episode? No, I haven't seen every episode. I've seen most of them. Yes, okay That's man standing. It's not a good show, but it's an interesting show sure is this season six now seven Yeah, and they're probably gonna run two three more right? Yeah, because now it's like it's bumping Yeah, Elosandos in it earning that check Nancy Travis. Love Nancy Travis God Yeah, I mean in a post-gay martial world. I think Hector needs that thing to run for another seven, right? Maybe he should just start making the movies Elosandos should make Arbor Day or whatever. It's Hec today.

That's it. My new movie Hec today. Every pot played by me using computers. I'm a what's it? The FedEx line and run away bride. Where he's like, remember she gets on a FedEx truck and someone's like, where's she going? And Elizondo's like, I don't know, but she'll get there tomorrow by 11 or what, right? He has, I've never seen a theater erupt more than at that line. That is the most killer line reading I've ever seen in my life. I have to find out the exact line.

Talk about a prop. FedEx is the company in Castaway, right? They were like really good there in the late 90s at like doing product placement that you were like, good there in the late 90s at like doing product placement that you were like, okay, I buy it. It's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because the whole first active Castaway is just sort of describing you how like FedEx is like male cargo system works. Right. And being like, there's like, talks of the clipboard. You know, Tom Hanks work in the docs for them.

Yeah. One documentary short subject. Yeah. The first 30 minutes. I wish people would do that. One documentary short subject. The first 30 minutes alone. I wish people would get up there and he's like, what the fuck is going on? In my head, he's so grumpy. Zamekis. I interviewed him once. He was very grumpy. Not with me, just with like the movie industry. You didn't interview him for Marwan. I interviewed him for Allied. And I was so like, you know, talking to him about, you know, just like, I just think Hollywood makes bad movies. And I just wanted to make like a war movie that's like an old fashioned movie. And they just don't make those.

It is fascinating how all those guys who were like the biggest blockbuster directors and got to make everything they wanted to make. That's the time. Where's she going? I don't know, but she'll be there by 1030 tomorrow. That's correct. Like the audience literally, it was basically like, they were like, pay this man!

Anything! I'll do anything for Elizondo. Elizondo for president! Scott, it also got fun Anything. I'll do anything for Elizondo. Elizondo for president. Scott, it also got funnier when it becomes 1030 and not tomorrow. I mean, the specific really helps there. Yeah. Um, what was it? I was saying something about, uh, Hector Elizondo.

Um, this is the Hector Elizondo podcast. Uh, I don't know. I don't know what you guys say, but, but, but, Elizondo. All those guys with the blockbusters in this. Oh, all those guys with, thank you. Tell me what the cast. All those guys with the blockbusters in there. Oh, all those guys, thank you. What a pro.

All those guys with the blockbusters love to now complain about how the industry is terrible. Like James Cameron and George Lucas and Steven Spielberg and Zamekis, all these guys who got to make every movie they wanted to make and were showered with like Oscars and Billions are just like this industry is terrible. Everyone's making movies for children.

Right. What are they doing? Remaking like. Everyone's making movies for children. Right. What are they doing? Remaking like comic book movies. We've thought of that. Yeah. Yeah. Did you get welcome to tomorrow? Oh, of course.

We were cordially welcome. We were formally welcome. I'm okay. Moving with a lot of weird similarities to this one. Yes, and that it's a nightmare. Yeah, that's the primary one. Welcome to tomorrow was basically like Robert Zemeckas had been listening to Blank Check and we were sort of like,

yeah, we might do Zemeckas and he was like, you're doing it. Watch this. You see how expensive this thing is? David's pointing to the wall. Like he's like showing up. Excuse me. I convinced a major studio to let me make this.

He has a foot fetish. My point is Disney is at the early stages. My point I was starting to make 20 minutes ago. Disney's at the early stages of being like, we're silos, we're franchises. Like we don't want to make movies like Secretariat's or old dogs anymore. Every Disney movie is a fucking event.

It's an atomic bomb. The schedule clears to get out of the way. No one wants to deal with the Disney movie. But what they weren't doing yet were exploiting their own IP in the same way. They're using like public domain stuff, they're buying other things, they're using like weird cold type P,

but they're not touching the Disney classics because I think they seemed like we have to keep those behind glass. Disney animation is finally starting to like get a little groove going on. Pixar is doing the first sequel that they were forced to do as part of the Disney buyout. 233?

Yes. That was the first, like, okay, here you go. $5 billion. Now, of course, you're making Toy Story 3. Here are six other sequels we want, right? Right, right. But this is the start, like, it's after the Wally Ratatouille up run. And then Toy Story 3 is like, you know, now we're in sequel town.

Right. Marvel, they started having started Flexing Creative Power On. Star Wars is still a couple years away. And so they're just like, who's like, what do we buy into? Tim Burton and Johnny Depp. So they're like, we're doubling down on Johnny Depp. What does Johnny Depp want to do?

Loan Ranger, we're doing Loan Ranger. What does Tim Burton want to do? And the big thing was, they announced him one go. Tim Burton wanted to do dark shadows, I assume, right? Was that his point? No, go ahead, they would have announced, go on, go on, go big thing was, they announced him one go. Tim Burton wanted to do dark shadows, I assume, right? Was that his point? No, go ahead, they would have announced, go on, go on, go on. No, they announced him one go. They were like, we're bringing Tim Burton back

into the Disney fold where he belongs. He's gonna make two movies in Disney Digital 3D. Do you remember when they would use that as a marketing point? They had their own proprietary 3D, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were like, he's gonna make two Disney Digital 3D movies. They announced this in 2008. So it's before Avatar, when everyone's just rumbling about, man, Cameron's gonna change

the game. And it was, he's gonna make a stop motion film. His favorite thing, they're gonna bring stop motion back. Like a hasn't, you know, hit at this point. And they're gonna, no, no, Koryl and comes out the year. What are they announced? Franken Weenie and Alice Walkerland. Right, right.

And it felt a little bit like he wants to make Franken-Wieny. And Alice and Wonderland is then being like, here's a classic piece of like public domain, do whatever you want with it. And his big announcement, he makes is like, I always had a hard time relating to Alice and Wonderland because it felt like a series of events. It's just meeting a bunch of crazy people

through weird little chapters. It's a children's book. And he said, I want to see if I could add an emotional spine to it. Uh-huh. What is insane about this movie, Ben's mad. Is it literally feels like he went into it with the opposite intent? Where he was just like, I don't know, I just want stuff to happen. That's certainly how the movie is.

Right, because it's just a random series of shit happened. Well, he gives it the spine of the, you know, the Thorpe sword and the fuck no, no, no, no, no, just of the real world of the she's escaping her married life and it's a feminist quest to dethrone one landed aristocrat in replace her with a second with a. She's not just fighting the Jabberwackie, she's fighting the gender binary, baby. Yes, right. But it is, doesn't she feel like, where's that again? The beginning of the end feel like they're an entirely different film

because once, like she lands in underland, one of the many dumb things this movie does where it's like, she was a kid, she misheard it, it's actually called underland. But like this is where Tim Burton's like, let's do five percent of like Yancewankmeyer and five percent of Hot Topic or what, right where it's like, let's make it a of like Yancewank-Mirain, 5% of Hot Topic or whatever.

It's like, let's make it a little weird. Well, that was the other thing I was going to say. And this is why I think Dick Hook, who's running Disney, films at that point in time, goes all in on Tim Burton and is like, anything you want to make, just like, please come here, is like, this is the point where like Hot Topic, Nightmare for Christmas, sales are becoming like a billion dollar industry in and of themself. He's trying to make Disney a little cooler for teenagers. Tim Burton seems to be the key to that. And you have this movie that starts like that, but I feel like aesthetically design wise,

this movie does not really look like a Tim Burton movie. No. Which is odd because Robert Stromburg who then directs Maleficent. Like this becomes a blank check for him to direct a $200 million Linda Woolver 10 revisionist, feminist quote unquote, Disney adaptation. I kind of like Maleficent. Yeah, Maleficent's way better than that. I think Maleficent has a good script.

I think it's poorly directed. Sure, it's a little anonymously directed, but Maleficent has, is Elena making an effort? She's doing a good job. This has, I mean, I don't know, he's making something. Sometimes he's Scottish. Making a poop. Sometimes he's Scottish, sometimes he's angry, sometimes he's like a child, sometimes he's

pooping. So commentary on mental health. No Maleficent has like a, like a, like a, gender binary and mental health. Yeah. Came under siege from the Vorpelsword and fucking Alice cuts it all in half and everything's great now. I just think it's such a bizarre choice to go like,

okay, the technology exists, 3D exists, we can make a live action awesome wonderland like people have never seen before. First of all, the movie is 98% animated. That's our first take. Second of all, we're not going to make Alice in Wonderland. We're going to make a sequel to Alice in Wonderland, in which she's appearing for the second time.

Everyone tells her that she's wrong and she's not the same person. She suddenly forgets everything about when she was there for the first time, and then most of the events play out in the same order as the book. I love that. I love that.

I love that. Sort of. So good. But it's kind of like everyone having deja vu for a movie. No, but then it does the second book for no good reason. Which is so weird. Rather than end on the first, but then it does the second book for no good reason rather than end on the first book. It ends on the second book, the battle between the red and white queen.

The first book is the Queen of Hearts. Yes. They get rid of the Queen of Hearts. They make the red queen the Queen of Hearts. Right. And instead they do the second book and then they add a jabber walkie. No, I guess for like an ending. Can I add some context here?

Yes, please. Um, which is in the early 2000s, I'm a big wizard of osf. Okay. for like an ending. Can I add some context here? Yes, please. Which is, in the early 2000s, I'm a big wizard of osf. Okay, I love os stuff. In the early 2000s, Tim Burton, going to do a pilot called Lost in Os, I think for the WB. Sure. And like, somebody sent me the script online.

I don't know if it's the real script, but from what I remember of reading it when I was 18, it's very similar to this. Interesting. It's a lot of these kids go to os and like I think one of them is Dorothy's descendant, she finds out and like they have to like work their way toward fighting with whoever's in charge. It's probably Mombi or somebody like that. And a lot of like really unnecessary mythology. Yeah, but it's also like it's a TV show pilot. Sure. So you accept a little bit of that. Right. And it's also like set in like kind of a weird dark underland type place. Like it really, I think this is.

This is a broad, so much idea for it. Yeah. Yeah. This does kind of feel like the world's longest TV pilot. Yes. Because it just feels like it's introducing you to a bunch of ships. It's definitely introducing you to shit. Like it introduces you to the white queen. What do we know about the white queen? Well, she's white.

Yes. She's real white. Really white. She's got a white going on. She holds her hands up by her shoulders. It's a fun performance. No, it is not. No, it is not.

No, it is not. No, it is not. It's a bad performance. It's a bad performance. She's making some kind of fucking choice. She made one choice to hold her hands right here. It's good. I think I just want to test,

because I want to believe knowing the three of you that we're all going to be in agreement here, I think there is one performance in this film that is thoroughly excellent. I know who you're going to say, and I don't agree. Who do you think I'm going to say? Crispin Glover. No, okay.

No, I think it's a bad performance. I agree. Who do you think I'm gonna say? Crispin Glover. No, okay. No, I think it's a bad performance. I agree. And I like him a lot. No, the one good performance is a hell in a bottom carder. I think she's pretty good. She's good. I agree.

I think Lasakowska is doing a really good job, especially when you consider what she's up again. She's fine, but she's lost the second she's in Wonderland. Like saying, the movie just gives her nothing. I was like the, the reason I look at it, she's like, the reason I witnessed all this movie, all my doubts is I was a big intramine me a wazakowska fan. Right.

I was like, I want to see her be the next I'd like her an and I was like, can't wait to see what she gets. She also wasn't one of those people who was like on Hollywood short list. Like it was like she was like a critics favorite for a show that was like what she'd been pretty Coltie. Yeah. And then suddenly Tim Burton cast her in this and it felt like, oh, that was like what she'd been in. Pretty Coltie. Yeah. And then suddenly Tim Burton cast her in this

and it felt like, oh, that's like a big anointment. And since her cheese run is far away from this kind of movie as she can, I'm telling you that comes from career. Exactly. Right. And the looking through the looks. Right, right, which like you just have to imagine

she couldn't turn down that paycheck. She's like great. I assume she was a bled. She's actually much better in through the looking glass. She's really remornered. Yeah, great. She's figured out how to. Also, she's like, she's the active,

like where it's like, what's going on? Well, the Mad Hatters not feeling so good, which is the hatters the matter. What you're saying is that the hatters the matter. And she has to kind of like march around and sort of be like. That was the tagline bend. Yeah, how tagline for the movie was the hat. She also remember, she has like weird sort of like

multi-colored pajamas because she's been, she just came back from China. Yeah. I think another film where I like the first 10-15 minutes of that movie the best. I like the Sasha Baron cone stuff. I think the rest of it I could sort of take her leave. I think the stuff with her on the ship is fun. I think the way Burton shoots was a caska especially in Underland is kind of creepy through. She feels very fetishistic. Yeah. You know how all the dress stuff now, I don't say this. And Wonderland is a fetishy book written by a pervert.

Sure. Obviously, it's in the text. You don't need to summon it out of the text, but it is in there. But this movie is like, it's weirdly kinky in the places you don't want it to be. And then it removes the kink from the places where it actually could have been interested.

You guys have talked a lot about how Burton is not a particularly sexual little afraid of sex. Yeah, but like way of depicting it on screen. That scene when she's very large and there's like small men who come up to her and like, okay, yeah, that's Tim Burton's thing. Right. You're like this. Hell woman crushing him between her hands.

Right. That's what he wants. Right. She is so pale in her hands. Right. That's what he wants. So she is so pale in this way. I know she's a pale woman. I was going to say she's a pale woman. I was going to say she's a pale woman. I was going to say she's a pale woman. I was going to say she's a pale woman.

This was the first time I'd ever seen her in a movie. And looking back at this now, I'm like, you're talking. You're talking to me, you didn't see Amelia? Apparently she's on the mail, I don't know. Okay. Um, watching this now, having spent a decade watching excellent work for me at La Cazca, I was like, oh, shit, I didn't realize it at the time because I never found a reference. He actually made her more pale in this movie.

He did, over sure. And he puts the dark makeup around her eyes. Everyone's pale in this one. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what he did to it and half the way, but he like coated her in chalk. And it's also, it's impossible to do these fucking movies where like, here's an insane thing.

The shooting schedule for this movie was apparently 30 days all in. They spent like two weeks shooting the live action stuff. I guess that makes sense because like, how much screen time does Johnny Depp actually have? Not that much. It's mostly just like a few monologues where he's like, oh, I'm Scottish now.

On one hand, it's weird that the mad hatter is in this much of the movie because like the mad hatter, I feel like it's a character that everyone remembers and likes but he's not like an integral like. He's in quarantine. Why isn't he even decorating it? It's just the fucking tea party. Yeah.

Like the queen is like a big back in the second. Right. The queen's a little more, but they've they've fucked with the queen. But when they announced this movie, they're matching the queen's up. When they announced this movie, they were like Timber and it's going to make a big 3D awesome wonderland people were like, oh, what is giant up going to play the mad hatter? And I'm are being like, that wouldn't make sense. It's like too small of a role for him.

And then of course this movie becomes Johnny Depp above the title. His face is the poster, Alison Wanderland, watch me drink tea. Yeah. And like the Alice character poster is her little by the teacup. Whereas like the Johnny Depp post, she's not even big. His fucking face. Yeah. And then you had the, I remember when they dropped the Helena look,

yeah, you were kind of like, Oh oh that's fun, they're using CG to make her, to like warp her, and like, I haven't seen one of these before. That is one of the things I like in this movie. And you go like, I would like this movie more if he was shooting practically and augmenting with CGI. For sure. Because that effect still plays kind of fun.

I think it's great. And it feels like the kind of loopiness you want out of a live action on a Wonderland movie where it's like, these are tangible tactile things, but you've distorted the perspective of them. Yes, the white queen. There she is, there's the white queen. And halfway, it's sort of a big moment for her too, right?

She's sort of a big star at this point. She's got her first Oscar nomination. She's a proven box office thing. Crispin Glover though. Yes. She's got her first Oscar nomination. She's a proven box office thing. Um, Chris been glover, though. Yes. He's also being CG augment, right? To sort of stretch him out. So this is another example of just like them being like that stuff's easy, right? His, it's not even that he's CGI augmented.

His body is fully animated. It's just fake. It's not motion capture. No, it's just like, but like, is it just to elongate him? Is that the idea? And you go, what's the fuck? He's only a little along. Correct. So it's one of those things that the whole time he's on screen, you're like, what's just like, but like, is it just to elongate him? Is that the idea? Correct. But he's only a little along. Correct.

So it's one of those things that the whole time he's on screen, you're like, what's up with him? Like, is there something up with him? And you're also like, why does his head feel disconnected from his body? Because it's just insane. They shot him on live action sets. And then we're just like, cool, let's erase his body

and then hire animators to do whatever they want with his physical positions. It kind of looks like the Fred Clause version of Slender Man. He kind of does. He kind of does. I think Fred Clause would have been a worthy addition to this movie and I think it's time for us to talk about it. It's weird that no one has revived the Fred Clause brand. That's 20 minutes from now.

Oh, okay. We'll get to that. Okay, okay, okay. I'm going to actually set it time. Okay, we'll get to that. Okay, okay, okay. I'm gonna actually set it time. Yeah. So there's shit like that where you're just like,

what's the point, right? It only makes the thing feel uncomfortable to have CGI, noodle body, Krisping Glover, in a way that's so subtle that you can't even tell what they're gaining from doing. Where is Helen and Boncarry? You're like, I get it. And it's just worth the money and it looks kind of cool.

Right, so it's like, you see the good and the, I get it. And it's just worth the money and it looks kind of cool. Right. So it's like, you see the good and the bad. They do it, it's less effective, but they do that to make Johnny Depp's eyes bigger in this movie. But you're like, that type of principle is the kind of thing I'd like them doing building sets. I don't know if you noticed this,

the hatter in this movie. He's mad. Oh, mad. You know where that comes from, right? Yeah, the Mercury. Every English person knows that, because it's like, we're opening when Jesus fucking Christ,

the look he gives me. Okay, David, that's kind of cruel that you didn't give me the chance. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I didn't give you the chance to torment me like a cat with a mouse. It's totally fine.

Let's reset, reset, Todd reset. Okay. You guys know the thing about the mad hat, right? Where that comes from? Oh, yeah. It's a hat Uh, these use mercury to stiffen their brim. David, you're, uh, no, for him, but like the, uh, made him a little crazy. Right. Yeah. Do you make him crazy? Right. So you guys know that definitely, David, you're being quiet. Do you know that? Yeah, it's something every English person knows. It's like a commonly recited. Okay, but this is a wide issue. It doesn't make any sense.

Whoa! Oh, wow! Did you know he's so committed to this bit. He's a fine actor. When I first knew him, he would stay up in the middle of the night and pretend to be from England online. No one has this level. I would be up at like four in the morning.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He would have to change his IP address, Damascus to make it seem like he had a VPN and everything. He was typing from straight and big Ben. God, I used to stay up so late just to be on fucking Oscar. You've talked to you.

That's why I have the back. That's what you say. Is that the bags under your eyes are permanent effective you spending time on the Oscar. Of me sleeping for four hours like a night for like four years or whatever. I was just that goddamn entertaining. And when I got to college, there was that moment where it's like, oh, I can just sleep

until 1 p.m. You know, like I don't know what's making me wait. Oh, sure. And then I got back into the old, full sleep situation. Love that. My thing was, I mean, I spent a lot of time message where I said, my thing was like TV. When it was like, oh, adult swim exists, county central areas weird things after midnight,

Conan does the start until 1230, and then I just never slept in normal time. I realized the other day, the only flame war I've ever gotten to online was about the TV show party of five in the late 90s, when I was a teenager. So that was on a message board. Okay, good memories. We've all had a flame war too.

And were you ever on a message board, a guy? No. Never? No. Never? No. You lived the message boards. You live in a tactile analog world. I was burning boards at the abandoned house. Planks of wood.

Yeah. Um, so the take on this movie is, I don't want to get married. She's a weird girl. Her father tells her it's okay to be unusual. Martin Sokas. I think that seems kind of sweet. Yeah, that seems fine. Lindsey Duncan's goodness. Francis Delatour is good in this. What? I did get an anarchist cookbook PDF on a message board. We'll think. You went to message boards to ask for the PDF. Yeah, you don't want to buy the book. Yeah, I tracked it down. Yeah. asked for the pdf. Yeah, you don't want to buy the book.

Yeah, I tracked it down. Yeah. There were rules. She doesn't want to get married. Yes. She sees the white rabbit. Yes. So she runs off.

Who's the guy who plays HeyMesh? Tony Bill. Great, great, great. He's fun in this. Great face. Leo Bill. I'm enjoying, oh, sorry. Yeah, I'm enjoying all the performances in this

for the first 10 plus minutes. I think you got a Tim Pickett Smith. Yeah. The step, you know, the father and mom. All of this a minutes. I think you got a Tim Pickett Smith. Yeah. The step, you know, the father and mom. All of this a lot. And I'm watching this and I'm like, oh, maybe Tim Burton should have made Jane Eyre, but like a straight-laced version.

You know? Or, but I'm at it. Like maybe you should have taken like a gothic kind of, like, you know, book and not done a Tim Burton version of it, but tried to like, maybe that's how we could have grown if he's out of personal statements. Maybe he has to apply his vision to other worlds, you know, but not the Tim Burton take on that world.

But then, they, Because it's true, because like what you said, and it's in here, it's like, Burton developed the story because he never felt an emotional cry to the original book. Maybe he let someone develop it who has an emotional time to the original book. Maybe they've got it who has an emotional time to the original book. Maybe they've got some emotion that will,

they'll pour into the movie. But the first 10 minutes, I'm like, this is a decent setup of like, okay, she keeps on since she was a little girl. She has what everyone tells her our nightmares about Wonderland. They tell her that was a weird dream, but she's never really gotten over it.

Now it's like 10 years later, six years later, whatever. She's trying, you know, they're trying to force her into plate society. She never fits. There's that moment when she's dancing with Leo Bill, and he says, where are you? Where's your head right now? And she's like, I was thinking about clouds, isn't it bizarre?

Yeah. She's thinking about painting roses red. Right, and I'm like, this is kind of a fun character. And you're setting up this thing. I like the mom talking about blockages. Yeah, and everyone's told her that she's crazy and that this thing that she remembers isn't true. No, we get it.

I'm gonna say though, Alice is stand-up set. What if Menward dresses and what if people could fly? It just doesn't really work for me. She's got work on it. Well, for me also, it just feels like a little rigid. She should have loosened it up, made it a jazz set. I think that's what we're really made it saying. But then what drives me crazy, this is why I start to go like,

what the fuck is this movie doing? She falls down the hole. The hole looks like a butthole. It's CGI butthole. Yeah, and she's like, yeah, that hole thinks sucks. Right, and then immediately she goes, oh, this isn't real, I'm dreaming again. Sure.

So it's one of those things where you set up for the first 10 minutes of character who believes what happened to her and everyone tells her she's crazy. And you want to see that character be vindicated by returning to Wanderland, getting the affirmation that it's real, and being able to save the place that she once lived, right?

Instead, this movie goes, we don't need you. You're too. She goes, this is a dream. Sure. And they go, there's vaguely a war happening, but with very little urgency. You're exactly, you're demanding a story. The movie, once she falls down the whole, there's no story.

I'm demanding they pick a lane, because I am totally fine with them making a live actualist of Wonderland, where it's here's a series of vignettes. Are you totally fine with that? Yes, if they own it, it's a vignette thing, and every vignette doesn't end with, you must claim the sword. Yeah. It doesn't aim with the fake posturing of, we're creating a Lord of the Ring style battle. What's weird is that every attempt to give this

more of a story ends with like, well, Alice has got to fight the Jabberwaki and get the Whorple Sword through that. Right. I get why you do that, but like, what the fuck, you know? This movie vaguely tries to pin a like chosen one narrative a like prodigal daughter. They show her like a scroll where she's killing

the Jabberwaki. But then it's also like everyone has amnesia. I think the idea, this is barely a defense, but of them rejecting her is like, I guess, to add an element of mystery to that scroll. Because otherwise it would just be like, that's you, you're gonna kill the Jabberwock. But I also hate the Chia immediately.

And they're like, is that you? And she's like, I don't know. I hate the Chia immediately goes, oh, this is just a dream. So none of this matters. It rubs the movie of all suspense of all agency. And all agency. Right.

Then the character is nothing going on. She's just like, I'm going to ride this out. She just wanders from scene to scene. She can show the world by spring all the time. In the book, it is a dream. And at the end of the book, she wakes up and she realizes that one of the cats was the red queen and the other one was the white queen. And like, it's supposed to be like,

oh, a reverie, you know, and I guess they're sort of paying homage. Again, I'm doing the thing where I'm like, is this a defense? I guess that's the defense. But this is where I get into like my biggest grape at this movie, which is like, it's a sequel that also kind of wants to start. Yes, you've mentioned this because here's a take. And I'm not. You hate it. Yes, everything. You've mentioned this.

Because here's a take and I'm not saying any of us would like this movie. But here's a cleaner version of the movie they're trying to make. Alice never gets over this bad dream. Everyone tells her she's crazy. She's been six years feeling disconnected from polite European society, right? She falls down the hole again. It's a post-apocalyptic wasteland. They go, we've been waiting for you.

Why didn't you come back? Sure. And they're you come back? Sure. And they're all huddled together. And she has to like lead them on a rebellion. Well, here's the actual point. I said this movie is, I'm gonna very slowly wander around with everyone one at a time. Everyone's gonna go, no, I don't think you're Alice.

She's gonna go cool. Well, it doesn't matter because I'm dreaming. And in the last 30, she gets the sword and she fights. I do wanna ask, was Tim Burton one of the people who tried to adapt the Lucky McKee game Alice in the late 90s. Okay. So that's the other thing I was thinking of.

Everyone kept on saying that he was and I think Lucky McKee kept on saying I want to try to do it as a movie. I want Tim Burton to do it. I think Wes Craven was going to do it for a while. Okay. But this movie has a lot of similarities with that game and the whole like Alice things become a warrior and defeat the Jabberwok come straight out of that game. Yeah.

Which feels like one of the six things they're pulling from. Right, right. American McGee. Ah, yes. Lucky McGee is um, May. Oh, that movie, yeah. I was, I was, I was, I just had to look at it. I'm sorry.

I remember that game though. Question answer, which is what is a classic twisted? Oh, right. And one of the first like this video games made by NO TOUR. I just had to look at it. I'm sorry. I remember that game though. I remember that game though. I remember that game though. I remember that question answered, which is, what is... What is the classic twist, dude? Oh, it's my plan. Right. And one of the first, like, this video games made by NOTOR. Right.

Like, he put his name on it. Like, this guy's speech in. Like, Sid Mayer's thing was, like, what if you could have a railroad? That was a story, too, is Sid Mayer. Shug-a-chug-a. Shoot-a-chug. Here's my question I never got answered. What is the only capital G great performance in this movie?

I think Halibona Carter is very good, but there's one performance that is immaculate in this film. Francis Dillator. I don't know. The pig. Timothy Spall as Bayer the dog. All right, well I have a couple. He is so in the pocket in this movie.

I have one thing to say to you. Bayer rolls. He's the Sidley the spy jet of Alice in Wonderland. Now you're saying this jet favor, I'm doing my congressman again. This jet, his butt opens up and the cause can go inside. Does he feel pain? I ask you, Senator. No, I don't.

I don't. Sidley have a rubbly in his tummy when the characters are all speaking. I have no problem with Timothy Spall's voice work as the fucking dog. His name is Barrett, the dog in show some of this. Here's my problem. That dog looks like shit. Even by the visual effects standards of this movie,

he looks unfinished. All of it looks like the scorpion kick. Bad. No, no, this looks worse. Like where he has no hair that moves. He's just like, he's smooth, even though he like has hair on his body. But this is one of those movies where it's just like, he's worse. even though he like has hair on his body. But this is one of those movies where it's just like, they don't...

No, he's worse. Him worse. I can't look at it. I'm not denying that. What I'm saying is, this is one of those movies where they were just like, this is too much for any one movie to render. Like there's too much shit. And the special effects people were apparently having just nervous breakdowns all the time.

Look at this. Look at this shit. Yeah, but remember what he sounds like. What is shit? Looks like a dog who's being made into a glove. Yes, exactly. He looks like he's been vulcanized. The whole movie is shit.

Hey, Ben, did you watch this movie? Yeah, fucking sucks. I hated this movie. I stayed up last night watching this. Did you watch it when it came out or you would have known? No, I took one look at it. I could tell it was a piece of trash. It is filth.

This movie is pure disgusting. So I'm wasting my, this is what I think. I think Tim Burton sold his soul to the devil. And this is the devil like knocking on his door being like, it's time to pay. This is bad. I remember it was like, do I have to do the sequel? And he was like, no, I wouldn't make it to the sequel, Jesus. I know, I know, I know most people, I know most people choose Planner the Apes. I think this is his worst movie. Oh, this is by 100% of the four. Do you think this is worth some plan of the Apes? Yes, of course. Planner the Apes is at least

super rare. This is maybe the worst film we've ever discussed on this podcast. And it's also one of the five most successful movies we've ever discussed on a podcast. Sure, right, right. And it's certainly his number one. So number two is, how do you know, right? No, how do you know?

It's in the, no, no, we're near the bottom. Elizabeth Town. Elizabeth Town. No, no, no, the one you're thinking of is the old T-Six. You are the best. Yeah, that one's low. I'll do anything. That one's a lot of it So you hated that one because you were stressed out that day. I was having a moment

There was a moment and I was you can't just out of the studio fearlessly sure And then we had to watch a longer hard to watch both Dramatically and literally the visuals. Good reminder, but I had said Brooks deserves to go to jail for that movie. The chipper and should be sent to space. He should be spaced. He should be spaced. No, should he be sent to space like in a pod that he can breathe in or it's like an airlocking

or like he's just frozen floating around like a parakeles pod. He's like tucked in there in a monkey-sized pot. Todd K. I mean, I wanna hear you get off the leash, David the dog style. I'm sorry, by Bayard style. What Bayard style? Whoa, Bayard style. What are the things that make you irate in this film?

Like give me your fire and brimstone. Oh God, well, you know, the only thing that really makes me mad is when people don't understand the main character of Last man standing is a vlogger. Yeah, but, important. You don't know this, but Todd aimed a magnet at my head. I didn't know that. And it's still there. Right. And Griffin talked him into uncocking it, but he's still pointing at me. There's an indent on David's forehead from the pressure. Now, what I watched this movie, I was watching it on the plane here, which you guys so generously paid for, blank check air.

And I was sitting next to someone and I kept angling away from them like I was watching porn. She's so embarrassed to be watching this movie in the year 2019. It is crazy to think about so if I saw someone watching this movie on a plane nap, I would be like, are they in? Like, as it works, I would literally be like, this person must be like sick and it's the only movie they can watch. Also, maybe the worst place to watch this movie. Sure.

And they were watching 13 Going on 30 on their little monitor and I was like, boy Jennifer Garner's good in that movie. Try to be cool. And I had to like keep forcing myself to walk. Yeah. Is an ugly ass movie to look at. It is. It is. The process of the story is literally just like sitting in a studio notes meeting and having

like an executive be like, I don't know, what if the white queen had a sword? What if like the crown could float around because the gesture cat? No, I was just going to explain to you to every decision is contradicted by a different decision. Sure. Every scene sets new story goals. Uh-huh. Alice has no character arc despite the fact that it's supposed to be about like her feminist realization of herself.

It does truly feel like exquisite corp style, the live action bookends and the animated stuff in the middle were made by different people who were in no communication with each other. Like different scripts, different production teams. Yeah, and to top it all off, when I saw this movie, I was trying to make friends with some people that I worked with. Timberton. So I worked at the census. Yeah, I worked at the census at the time, and they were like, let's go see Alice in Wonderland.

And we went and saw it, and we came out of it, and I was like, boy, that was a piece of shit, and they were like, let's go see Alice in Wonderland. And we went and saw it and we came out of it and I was like, boy, that was a piece of shit and they were like, we all really liked it. And then like I didn't get to have friends because of this movie because I preemptively was like, what a bad movie. But I did get the butterwacking out of it. I used to just send that to people I worked with in the middle of conversations and, yeah. So my sister, my sister, you know, much younger than me. Sure.

So when she was growing up, I was like, I'm going to end date her with all the things that I love the most. And she, because she grew up in a household that was, that I strong armed my way into being the third parent of. Yeah. Grow up a big Tim Burton fan. She called him Tim Burton. It would be an event when I would take around when I see a Tim Burton movie.

She saw this one with friends at a sleepover, and I said, how is it? And she said, it's okay. There's one thing at the end that's maybe the worst thing I've ever seen in a movie. And for 10 year old Romley said that I went, oh, fuck. Right. If she's saying it's- Even her critical faculties were like,

this is no good. Right, and she wasn't singing a snarky way. Like she was just like, there's one thing at the end where I don't understand why they would do that. Right, right. It's, I didn't like it until the worst thing I've ever seen in a movie. And immediately when it happens,

you just go like, what the fuck is this? But it's also the weirdest checkoff gone in the world because it takes maybe like 30, 40 minutes to get to Madhatter, right? Sure. Then they get there. Then what's fun about the Madhatter is, oh, these people are like,

nothing, nothing. I'm sorry, what's fun about the Madhatter in the original text? Crazy. Why is it even like, I already grew up all McGillicutty, right? He's bouncing off the walls, right? And the, the, the door mouse and the mad hair and all the moustroing shit, march hair, they're all wacky.

And giant ups take on the Madhatter is either he seems like a traumatized child or he becomes weirdly violent. He's never fun. No, right. He's never fun. No, right. And he never feels like wacky. Like he either feels like victim. He either melancholy or he's like, or like he's going to victimize someone else, right?

When he goes into those weird like Joker voice like, Right. The Jopper walkie. Right. So they immediately, what was the fucking point I was going to make? Oh, they offhand reference the butterwackin. Right. They go like, remember, he used to be fun,

he's lost his will to live, he doesn't even do the butterwackin anymore. And she's like, what the fuck is the butter? Like she's like rubbing her temples and she's like, out with it, what's the butterwackin? Right. And it's like it's the celebratory dance you can only do when pieces are stored to the kingdom

Then they just leave that thing on the table for an hour and a half all of us forget about it Because we want to be it is the only narrative thread they track and they occasionally will be it like the gesture cat has the things I love to see photo-acquired But they make it seem like that's gonna be the great victory of the film sure Sure. And then he does like CGI crumping. We're like 20 seconds. Yeah. You said of like, it feels like an attorney. It does.

It's sort of like the ring. Like once you look on it, like your brain gets like lesions that can't be removed. And like this is supposed to be like a victory. Is that a wrap in the mouth? Yeah. The script kind of goes like, you know, like it victor's husband. Yeah, the script, sorry, the score kind of goes like, da da da da da da. You know, like it's like that parted. Nothing like the rest of the score at all.

It just like breaks into like a modern pop. Because open is otherwise doing a totally serviceable generic. Incredibly generic. Is that your dance for kids though? To kids like that. That's one of those things where you're like, I don't know, this feels like it's out of like a Wiggles video or something.

Well, also, you're cutting from him, Father Wackening, to like Alice who has like a one smile. And the white queen who sort of like has her arms lifted and she's sort of like vaguely kind of like, you know, sort of moving back and forth. And you're like, you have us at Cowskars, probably reacting to nothing. I bet you never met Johnny Depp.

You're right. And like the tweet, I'm a tweet, I'm a tweet, I'm like, hey, look, he's, you know're like, you have us at CalSquear's probably reacting to nothing. I bet you never know. I'm a Johnny Depp. Right. Right. And like the tweet, I'm a tweet, I'm a tweet, I'll do you kind of go like, hey, look, he's, you know, like that it's not like everyone's like, yeah, you're there's some like crowd of people cheering. I just kind of like, I just, I just cut to Yubnob from the. They should have turned out. Of course.

Here's another crazy thing. Do you know that for this movie, they put Matt Lucas in a green like fat suit to have the egg-shaped body, then put him on stilts in the green screen space with me of Asakowska, but didn't use it as motion capture reference. They just had him in that extremely physically uncomfortable state, shoot all of his scenes, and then they were like, cool. And here's just raw assets of his face, stretch it onto the most horrifying looking creature ever imaginable and then copy paste it and place it next to himself. Just do two. Right. There's all the shit where they had the actors act all the

shit out and then like, look at her dancing. Look at this shit. Look at her, look at the, the leziest fucking dancing I've ever seen. Look at how bad his dancing is. He twists around. That's what it is, right? It's like he can he can twist around. And this weird gray bleak. That wiki that I like to miss background. It looks like a mortal combat level. The wiki that I link to did it still have the name of the actual dancer in an entirely different font from the rest of the page. It did, yes, but I have to alert everyone. What's his name? David Burnell? Michael Burishnikov?

I have to alert everyone. Yeah. Oh, it's time for us to talk about French culture. So Paul Giamatti's fucking locked in in French class. He is, but it's a weird performance. Because of course, like Paul Giamatti is Catholic, but he reads so Jew culturally that it feels like this Santa is to nebush me.

That haven't been said he's the one person who's finding the right comedic wavelength for the movie. Right. His makeup is very strange. Yes. Because they don't make his face rounder, they just make his beard a huge, but then his hands are very chubby.

Like he's got like pointedly fat fingers in it. I watched it recently. I watched it this press. I've been fighting a lot of insomnia recently. And I just go down a rabbit hole of like, no pun intended, what's the worst thing I could watch that might make me surrender. And my body will just fall asleep.

Why don't you watch like some kind of like sort of very sleepy art, we like our Kyrostomy movie or something. I do that sometimes, it doesn't work. And then I go like opposite end, like let the pendulum swing, watch. Fred Claus. A couple of things before Christmas, my wife and I both very busy people finally had a night doesn't work. And then I go like opposite end, like let the pendulum swing watch Fred Claus. I'm comfortable with you, Joe.

Christmas my wife and I both very busy people finally had a night off together and I spent that flipping between Fred Claus and the family man. And anyway, we're getting a divorce now. The end of that story. Had you ever seen Fred Claus and his entirety before? I had not. I had seen the family man in its entire. Yes. Yeah. Fred Claus is demented. I have never seen Fred Claus. Fred Claus is peak Vince Vaughn thinking,

I can just do whatever I want. People love me. He got a $20 million pairplay contract off the concept Vince Vaughn is Santa Claus's brother. Like he and David Dobkin walked in and we're like Vince Vaughn Santa Claus's brother and they're like, here's 20 million now,

whether or not we make the movie, we just need to pay you a kindness. We're giving us this gift. Thank you. Thank you. Rachel Vices in it, Kathy Bates is in it, Miranda Richardson is in it, America's favorite funny man, Kevin Spacey is in it, Ludacrus is in it, Elizabeth Banks is in it, John Michael Higgins is in it.

I have never seen the motion picture of Fred Claus. All right, now back to Alice in Wonderland. Do you know that Fred Claus has a scene in which Fred has to go to a meeting of brothers anonymous, which is brother, or de-loss, or de-loss? Oh, it's like brothers of legendary creatures like. Frust alone.

Oh, fucking hell. All right. Stephen Baldwin, Roger Clinton, and Fred Claus. Sure. And everyone is like going on their heels about like. Baldwin, Roger Clinton, and Fred Klaus. And everyone is like going on their spills about like. But how did they get Roger Clinton to do it? I mean, all over the marketing, right? All over the marketing.

And then, Stallone was free. Stallone was free. He had space in his schedule. Well, you know, it used to be good. Things were fine. We were on the same level. And then Rocky comes around. Like they never have any of them identify themselves by name.

Sure. They just make references to the big credits that their brothers have. Then my brother was elected president. Truly, truly. That's like the joke they did. And they're like Fred, you've never spoken before, and he's like, well, my brother's a Santa Claus.

And then everyone gets, I write at him, and they're like, you're making fun of us. Fucking Santa Claus isn't real. I got to deal with real Alec Baldwin. There is an intense mythology about how Fred Claus is immortal in Fred Claus. And he's not mortal man who's always been like a 40 something Chicago Shlope.

They have to justify why he's the same age of Santa Claus and didn't get any magical abilities. And what's the reason? It's something to do with like they both were like Fred was cursed and Santa was blessed, something like that. And yeah, but at the end he has to deliver all the toys because it's a Santa Claus movie. I cursed with a silver tongue, gift of the gab. It has a motor mouth.

What's the movie that I just said? Oh, yeah, no, it's true detective. True detective was the one that bled Vince Vaughan of the motor mouth. It's gone now. He can't reclaim it anymore. Right. Um, Alice in Wonderland, she goes to the tea party. I don't know fucking no.

Yeah, I mean, this thing is it is a serious problem. Here's the plot. She shows up. They're like, you're Alice. I'm not Alice. What, you know, back to four. Much like in the original book, she wanders through the four. She comes across another person.

They talk for two minutes. They go, well, yeah, don't forget it. You're not Alice. Or she wanders and the floor, she comes across another person, they talk for two minutes, they go, well, yeah, don't forget it, you're not Alice. Or, and then she wanders and finds another. Right. She's the caterpillar at Alan Rickman. He's like, mhm, moves on. She ends up with a tea party. She moves on. Okay, the tea party. Everyone's crazy. Haters like, you're definitely Alice, which is unusual. Hypothetically. Everyone else is just denying that she's Alice. Hypothetically isn't the fun of this concept of doing a sequel that she doesn't have to meet everyone again and she can just live in a world where all of them

communicate with the record. You're all the record that you don't like it to sequel. We got it. We have that. It's on, but it's written into the record. But they all start helping each other. I mean, there's the dumb thing where the treasure cat steals the hat and when the hat starts flying at the guillotine,

I was like, oh, fuck, is the hat magical now? Are they gonna make the hat a character? Matt had her walks her over to a castle. And sort of flings her over on the hat. She does a hat flight. And then there's some castle business. She gets too big. The queen likes her,

because the queen likes things that are disproportionate. I kind of like the red queen stuff. I like that everyone is elongating themselves Castle business. She gets too big. The queen likes her because the queen likes things that are disproportionate. I kind of like the red queen stuff. I like that everyone is elongating themselves in some way to match her head. That's a good performance. And that's actually kind of subtle that like they have.

Right. That they don't have a one thing. Right. Then they do explain it later. But you know, like, she likes to put her feet on a pig. Yeah. The castle's an eye sore. Her whole kingdom's an eye sore, but her performance is fun.

And you're least watching two actors who are both locked in talking to each other. Yeah, kind of. Right. And then it becomes about the fucking... Then it's like, if you defeat the jabberwock, the white queen will be in charge. You restore the kingdom.

But they predict the ending. Yeah, it's on a scroll. Fucking scroll. So who cares? It's a chosen one. And also is the white queen good? She seems like a scroll fucking scroll. So who cares? It's a chosen one. Yeah. And also is the white Queen good? She seems like a white supremacist. She's in like a white kingdom with white people. She's also like a necromancer. I don't like her. Yeah, she's frightening that weird flat back. She can't

move her hand. She's like John McAvery. Like couldn't like bend his shoulders or whatever. She's just got her hands on. Where in a mega hat? To the back. And, though, I swear to God. There is, that's the post-crat scene is the mad hat are just making mega hats. He's over the mill. You're right. I think it's for sale. Then she finds the, I guess there's the execution scene. Right.

Because they're going to kill the mad hat. He's going to make some hats at one point. Right. He wins over the favor of the queen because he says he can make hats for but then she doesn't like the hats. So then she wants to execute him. Well, she also realizes that he's in league with Alice. Right.

Yeah. Every so often, people just start speaking nonsense languages, which is in keeping with Lewis Carroll, but I do the thing I hate about this is Alice just like is friends with people immediately and because she's read the book. But also the whole thing is to do each other. Like she's like, you're not real. This is a dream. And they're like, fuck you. You're a phone.

Don't she's really like, oh, I got to save the mad hat or a little because he's played by Johnny Depp. Right. Why do you care about any of these people? Why does anyone care about anyone in this universe? Right. Um, uh, right. Right, why do you care about any of these people? Why does anyone care about anyone in this universe? Right. It's on the screen. It's on the screen.

It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen.

It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen.

It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on the screen. It's on of sounds like he's on oxygen. Didn't he pop up on the Hobbit movies? Did he? He did. He isn't one of them, I think, actually. At the beginning of the first one. I'm Saruman, but right now I'm fine. Yeah. Later I'm going to be a real pay.

Saruman, the okay. Yeah, he's actually in two hobbits. He's in the first and third. He's also in dark shadows and he's like, he had like in the third 10 years. And he's fucking unkillable. And he's like, he had like another 10 years in it. He's fucking unkillable. He died of 96, right? He was very old, also very tall.

Famously tall. He died at the age of 93. Wow. I think his last, like non-post-schemist release is the Battle of the Five Armies, the last Hobbit movie. I think God, he didn't end on this. He did end on the Battle of the Five Armies, the last Hobbit movie. I think I didn't end on this. He did end on the Battle of the Five Armies though, the last Hobbit movie. I do like those movies.

I do. I kind of like them. I'm a little bit of a fan. They're just stressed assets. It's one of those things where it's like no one's speaking up for Hobbit. So I'm like, I'll speak up. I'm on the record. I've only seen the first one. I saw it in high frame rate. I thought it was a fucking nightmare.

I want to do Jackson specifically to be able to see all three of them. But the high frame rate is a barrier. Like you should not watch it in high frame rate. It's one of those things where like ignore the director. I saw it with my father who had never seen or read any Tolkien and was like, what the fuck is this? Well, also, it's the first third of a children's book. It is the movie, so it's like, you know,

it just have to stretch a little. That first one is my favorite, because it's basically just like a three hour episode of Cougar Town starring Hobbits. Like they just hang out and like drink together. It's great. And then a couple of go to our monsters, so it's a bottomless, my most favorite.

It is, I mean, the first hour is breakfast, true, and then dishes. That's are monsters. So it's a bottomless, but most of it is. I mean, the first hour is breakfast, true, and then dishes. That's why I think my dad was like, what is the scene where they had the extended dishwasher scene is wild? He was like, isn't this supposed to have like sword fighting and shape?

They're like throwing fratadas at each other. Like the end of the movie is them being like, so I guess the mountains that way, like basically, I went with mountains that way, like basically. I went with my father. We went to this screening that was like one of the first high-frame raid screenings. And I remember we're walking in and there's a new line like PR person standing outside the theater and she's like, okay, first screening down, we only had 15 people walk out because of the high-frame raid. So I think we're on a pretty good start. Oh my god.

And they were doing a Q&A afterwards with FranWalsh Phillipa Boyens and Peter Jackson. Wow, great. And I forget who was moderating it, but like the movie ends and the theater is kind of like silent. And the person conducting the Q&A had to be like, so how did the three of you write? Do you?

So like, kind of like like one page at a time? Yeah. And then there were two last lines. Some of those the typing. Two laugh lines in the movie. And he was like, so that joke, who wrote that joke? How did you come up with that joke? Like he couldn't find things to ask.

Well, what's there to ask? Exactly. I don't know. Yeah. Go on, go on. Well, I just was gonna say it's an interesting comparison point because Lord of the Rings, there's so much influence of Lord of the Rings on this movie. Right.

But there shouldn't be. No, this feels right. Like they redesigned the playing cards for no discernible reasons that they look more like orcs or something. Yeah, they're more like armored. No, that's what's weird about this. Because like Snow White and the Huntsman is not very good. No.

But you're like, at least that's a better shitty movie. Well, it's just kind of dumb and it's like a bad approximation of what are the rings and whatever who gives a shit. But also, it's like Snow White is a fairy tale. Yes. It's very, very simple. So you can really spin it as many ways as you like. Yeah, Alice is like this odd work of literature.

Right. It's a little more specific. Yeah. It's hard to fuck with it. I guess people have, there's the video game, there's a little more specific. Yeah. It's hard to fuck with it. I guess people have. There's the video game. There's the things we've talked about.

But like, you know, it's not a fairy tale in the same way. Disney got its claws on it, but you know, the movie's good though, the original. I agree. I love that movie. And even like the old Disney Alice shorts are like some of the first shit Disney ever did. You know, he did like the live-ups of Alice shorts are like, great. I mean, there's this history of Alice within the Disney company that I think they want to latch on to. But after this, it becomes a wait a second.

What we should do is tie these closer to, I mean, Maleficent becomes the blank check of this movie, except Burton doesn't cash it. They really want to Burton to direct Maleficent. He was in talks and then dropped out. So they hand it to Stromburg who secretly feels like the person driving this movie. Well, okay, this is my larger question. Yeah. What happened to Tim Burton? I don't know. This is the one where you're like, what happened? There's no, there's nothing. So when I finally, this is what I finally kind of turned on. Yeah. This, this, this

the last one I saw in theaters. But you say, like, going into this post awesome wonderland, you go like, did the guy just get lucky for 10 years and we all fell for it? Rewatching his movies over a short period of time. Do you feel like you have to give him credit for what he did well in the first decade of his career? Right, right? Like you I feel like you've come around to being like you know what this isn't like a fluke He did some interesting work. There's clearly a brain there. I basically really like everything from pee we to sleepy, right? I don't like playing at the age. Yeah. I mixed on big fish or more mixed than you. to Sleepy. Right. I don't like playing out of the A. Yeah. I'm mixed on big fish. Right. Or more mixed than you.

I like it, okay. Yeah. I guess I'm mixed on Charlie. Don't like Corpse, Brad. Swini. I like swinging. I love, I love swinging. Swini.

Is this my first one after Swini? That's right. Ah, lovely. I'm a bov. I'll pull you to. This movie just becomes like, I love playing I'm a barber It does pull your tooth This movie just becomes like confounding come here Fred close you need a shave What if you mash up Sweeney and Fred yeah Fred V. Swinney Todd. He says brother. I don't know what's up my brother. I was great. He's on a shaving

Boy I don't know what's up with my brother, but I'm just crazy. He's on a shaving. Oh boy. London, what a filthy tan. The point is Maleficent is, I think, the Wolver Tim blank check of like, I would like to make a Maleficent movie. And then when that does, it's like, that's really recast this in a entirely different light. It's a take on.

Exactly. This is sort of halfway, which is like, how should we age in the Disney version? Cause Maleficent is such a Disney character. And then after that, they went like, wait a second, what if we just do the animated film to again?

And now we're moving to this like, next us point where like the films have essentially become like AI and like they become self-conscious. Where it's just like they rerender the old movie shop. There will be a hunchback of Notre Dame and they're like, they're will and it's like, yes, yes, we will make it. Right, like, deep blue is like making movies now.

Can you name for me the three live action remakes from before this one? In the Disney Canon? Correct. 100-month-old Macy. Correct. There's a jungle book from before. Correct, Stephen Summers is the jungle book,

which is a Disney production. Yes, and is more off the, the red-yard, red-yard Kipling kind of original. Yeah, it has animals has like live animal right it's a scary movie because you're when I saw it in Peter's not scared Scott Lee that close to that bear exactly and

then the third one sort of own it's a sequel it doesn't really count it's not 102 yeah yeah they did do a direct to video sequel to the the jungle book they did a mogulie story sure but that doesn't count. No, come on.

No. Um, anyway, Alison went to land a species of shit. She slays the jabber walking and then she makes up billion dollars. She goes back and she's made a billion dollars and, uh, yeah, it makes the billion dollars. She's like, I'm the fucking marrying you. Right. And the dad's like, you've humiliated my son in front of all these people. Yeah.

Maybe, do you want to run like a shipping route for me? And she's like, uh-huh. And he's like, shake on it. But this is the beginning of the year. And Disney trying to create their own blockbusters. Like, despite the fact that this is like a legacy project based off a public domain thing that Disney has a history with. This is trying to make something new.

And after this, they're like, cool. Like live action Disney is just doing nostalgia buttons. Right. But also also that's what we're doing the stalled machines but also after this Tim Burton only makes movies that are flops and critical flops right both don't make money and don't kick interviews right this is the movie that made money but doc didn't kick interviews right and Disney is kind of just like he do nine years later he does not he remakes another Disney movie. And by the way, they have offered him

every single one of these in between Alice and Dunbaugh. And this is the one where he's clearly like, I guess I should do that. Like rather than like, who cares, fuck them? I'll make whatever I want. They want him to do, through the looking glass, they want him to do Maleficent, they offer him all of these. They wanted him to do their Pinocchio movie,

like they keep on offering him these things. Err, but this is the one where now it feels like, maybe even Burton smells blood in the water and it's like, yeah, no, Dumball, do Dumbo. And it'll hit, hopefully. They hope. God, I hope it's just nice. I hope it's just like a movie.

He should just finally do his Oz movie. Like he, he's clearly gotten aesthetic. There's a lot of shit. There's never been ever one forgotten the Ramy one. It's not like anyone's worried about that. It's like, other weird relic of this time. Like a movie that makes like $220 million and they're like, we know we can't make a sequel to this.

I think we know we can't trick people. I think to worship it weird again, he should make a movie about adults or like teens and it's like maybe it's like rave culture about goths or just like she, she get back to what he's good at. And wants to make that move. Have you read the graphic novel black? Is it called black hole? I think that's right. Yes. Oh my God. The cardboard would be great for that.

Which David Fincher was gonna do for a while. It's about like teens who, when they have sex, they start like growing extra eyes and horns and sex. Oh, you've never read black hole? You'd have a good time. You'd be the... I'm actually gonna buy a few. It's like, you're gonna have a good time.

Because I want you to think of it all. It's got you when you're reading. Right, exactly. It's so good. You're right. That is a perfect thing for him to adapt. There are so many interesting graphic novels that Tim Burton could be making right now. There's so many weird genre films from his childhood.

Like, he wanted to make like, ex the man with the X-ray eyes for a while, you know? They're like weird Korman movies that he could be like making. And when this movie came out, I was like, okay, this thing, fucking sucks, but he had a billion dollar hit. At least his next film is gonna be something straight from the heart.

Like he is such a big blank check. And instead, he kind of shrugs and goes to Johnny Depp and's like, I don't know what do you wanna do? And Johnny Depp's already putting on his fucking dark shadows cosplay. Like that's the real bummer of this movie. Is that you're like, what if this was means to an end to get him making a personal film on a grand canvas again? And instead, he's like, I don't know, I don't really have anything left to say.

Um, Alison Wondreland came out on March 5th, 2010. For us an absurd amount of money. A day that will live in him for me. $116 million. That's correct. The biggest non-sequel app. Come on, it's 10th anniversary. Although it is kind of a sequel. We are coming up on it. But kind of to a movie that didn't. Number two at the box office was also a new film.

A crime drama. A crime drama. Set in one of the five burrows. One of the five burrows. Now think of the movie gaudy if you forget what the five burrows. One of the five. Now think of the movie, Gaudi, if you forget what the five burrows are, because they're named in. He welcomes us to the five burrows. But have you seen Gaudi? I forget. You know there's a scene where Stacey Kee's just named the five burrows. Yes, I do. Okay. You got all five burrows, Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten Island, and the Bronx. You close them, makes a fist. That's what he says. He literally he he cites off the burrows. Right to John Gotti, who's a New Yorker?

Right in the way that like they have to explain to Alice in this movie, like the Vorpulsword holds all the power. Does he pull up list of burrows of New York City on Wikipedia? Yeah, what do we got here? Alphabet of the court or a Brooklyn. But he recites them with the deliberate and like laser focus, of New York City on Wikipedia. Yeah, like what do we got here? Elf Battle Court or a Brooklyn? But he recites them with the deliberate and like laser focus, slow pace of someone who has to like,

unload dense mythology onto the viewer. Right. In the beginning there was darkness. And out of the darkness came the Bronx. Well, this one's not set in the Bronx. Okay, where's it set? Brooklyn. Brooklyn. Is it Brooklyn's finest?

That's right. Anton Fuku, baby. One of the 15 Anton Fuku movies. In between. He's so surprised here where you're like, who directed that? And he's an integral sort of person that would be like, I did! You can't believe it, but I directed that one too! The other.

King Arthur, that was me! The other word thing, Fuku has been on kind of like a hot streak. He makes money, I mean. Right, this was this mid period where he was kind of dip this was. And you're like, I guess, who was out, but then like Olympus is fallen makes a hundred equalizer hits equal out to him. He directed it.

Right. Not a hit. No, Magnificent seven did okay equalizer to 102 million. Yeah. Yeah. Equalized again in that one equal. This time to equalize. Yeah.

The odds were in his favor. Equalized again in that one. Equalized. This time to equalize for a second. Yeah. The odds were in his favor. Equalized or two. Yeah, he made Shooter. Right. He's made so many movies. He's made so many movies. Okay.

What did that open to? $13 million. And was that like Sydney Kimmel Entertainment? That was a now defunct distributor. I know that one. For sure Phil. Now Default. Number three. Uh, what a great movie. What a great movie. Uh, it's been in theaters for three weeks. I saw it twice in theaters. I saw it

twice. I cried at the end of this movie. You cried at the end of this movie. What a great ending it has. So some people don't like the ending, they're wrong. It's an early 2010. It was a holdover from 20 or nine. It was positioned as an awards film. And then they were like, fuck it, let's release it in February. And it made a ton of money. In my opinion, the best performance given by this actor with one other movie as competition.

When you said you cry, I knew it was instantly. Interesting. So they, it was originally awards content. Then they were like, fuck it. We're giving up. Big director. Big director. And it didn't get like a limited release. They just straight up pushed it to the fact that it was weird. They were just like, it's coming out in February and everyone was like, what? But like, that wasn't going to be an awards movie. And they were just kind of like, no, everywhere. But it was kind of good. It feels like maybe the distributor didn't get it. You know, I've, I'd love to know what the actual reasoning is maybe it was unfinished. I have no idea Maybe the distributor didn't have faith the studio big studio the ending makes you cry

I love that ending is it like a pointedly emotional ending that some people think is manipulative It's a twist ending Big twist right Todd oh my god a big sad twist Yeah, I think it's set. I think it's I think it's moving. Do you know what it is? Oh, you're looking at us more How can you not I mean I can't and it becomes a surprise if I say anything it becomes a surprise hit I don't know if it was a surprise hit because I had a big star and it was from a big director But it was a hit it made a hundred and a big star, and it was from a big director, but it was a hit. It made $128 million. Wow.

300 worldwide. People expected it to flop, and then it did. Yeah, I think because of the February thing, people like, is this thing a mess? Yeah. And it just wasn't an Oscar player, is what it was. Exactly.

It's a kind of genre. Very genre. Very genre. We like to quote this movie, you and I. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh island here. Right. That's you're right. That's 13 million dollars. A twist that anger's people, but you find deeply emotional should have given it away. They did that's for him. I guess it was for him. And did it work? Probably not. David, do you want us to do that for you? Put me on Twitter. I mean, you know, Jackie, you're a hailey. I should get him in for five minutes to be like, hey, I'm like lighting a big match.

I got a lot of scores on my face. What a great movie. He told me some good stories about making that phone. Really? Yeah. What do you know I was dumped in February? No, I think it was that thing or date or square. It was just like, this is a genre movie, just dump it.

Yeah, yeah, I'm not dump it, but forget Oscar season. Yeah, I think so. No, he told me that was like the first movie where he had the courage to like ask for more takes. Oh, wow, sure, sure. He's like, I've got another thing I want to try. Gave a performance and Squirtz Ezi is so intuitive that like if he likes it, he doesn't need more.

He's not a guy who needs a ton of coverage. Right. And he was happy with it and was moving on. And he was like, fuck, I like just kind of have come back after my career was like you know I was on the down and out so I'm working with this massive director and he like built up the confidence to be like can I do one more I think I'm not doing what I want to do and what I can't do sure because he's really good in that scene great yeah great you know you know Marty too so we can get we can get him in this. My two best friends, Marty and Jackie.

Yeah. I nosh with them. We get bagels every Sunday, Marty and Jackie and I. Okay, well, that's number three, it's a big head. Number four, oh boy, so this one in theaters. Comedy, kind of an action comedy, lazily directed, I would say. Cop out. Correct. kind of an action comedy, a lazily directed, I would say. Cup out. Crap.

Yeah, damn, tootin. A movie in which I remember, like Willis literally has guns pointed at him at all times, right where he's just like, you know what I'm gonna read the lines? Okay, I'll read the lines, right? Yes, correct. He's gotta come back by the way.

Oh, no question. He was a hit. It's too bad he died. Yeah, well, he back by the way. Oh, no question. He was a hit. It's too bad he died. Yeah, well, he's got to come back. Oh, you know, number, you know, Tracy is just being Tracy. He's just being silly, right? It is also a movie so lazily constructed that they kept in the clapboards at the beginning and end of every take.

A cup out, scene three, picture. But what I remember from the movies that Sean William Scott is like pretty dialed in and he's having a lot of fun Like he's like come on guys. This is fun. Yes. Willis is just like who you get in the American by guy He has a very stiffer very fun Coked out 10 minutes Sean William Scott has gotten really good at being the best thing in utter catastrophes Yeah, yeah, he's he's just you know, he's a professional. Yeah, he's a professional silly man How is he on a lethal weapon?

Have you been watching the weapon? Have you been loading the weapon? I don't watch it regularly, but when I tune in, he's the best thing in a cold catastrophe. A good cast. They show her on the first time. And the Goon movies are one of those things that in the 90s were common,

there's almost straight to video franchises, but he's got one and he deserves one. It is one of those things. There's two goons. Kevin Smith always talks about what a nightmare Bruce Willis was on cop out and how uncooperative it was. And it's like maybe because he hated being in the movie cop out.

Didn't like you. Because of your personality. Number five is a film we've talked about that does 3D better than Allison Wonderland. that does 3D better than Allison Wonderland. It does 3D better than Allison Wonderland. Yeah, currently in its 12th week it has grossed $720 million at the US box office. That could be any movie. Now, I mean, here's some movies.

It could be The Crazies, Valentine's Day, Percy Jackson and the Olympians, The Lightning The- Is Percy Jackson in- No, it's number seven. Fuck, it's tough because all of these movies did over 700 domestic exactly a wolf man the ghost writer the blind side well that would have actually right yeah Alvin in the chipmunks the squeak was in there at number 18 holding fast it's still on 562 screens um let me ask you uh did this movie inspire a very expensive theme park attraction?

You know what else it inspired? It's really well written, witty Cirque du Soleil show with some sharp humor. You're saying kind of like a subtle dry, a bone dry, but razor sharp with. Exactly. A cutting kind of wit. My favorite thing is always to look at the bottom movie in the box office, which is the cove this week, you know, right? Okay.

Yeah. Which has made $88 this week on two screens. So a per screen average of $44. So it inspired a swifty and circus o'lady show, a very expensive theme park attraction. It made over 700 million domestic. It's in 3D. It could only be one movie,

Alvin the ship, amongst the squeak wall. No, it's Avatar. Oh, okay. James Cameron's Avatar. Where is squeak wall though? 18. Okay. That's all in there.

I knew they came out the same month. Yeah, and Avatar's the number five and is grossed $8 million and it's 12th week. Yeah. So a little better. A little better. There you go. Todd, any further things you want to yell about in

relation to this movie? I want to discuss how this film has two Oscars, which one over notes, films like Inception, the King's speech, which say what you will, great costumes and sets. What are some of the other ones that were nominated? I mean, our direction feels like the most egregious award to give this most. Yeah, let's talk are some of the other ones that were nominated? I mean, our direction feels like the most egregious award to give this most. Yeah, let's talk about some of the movies at beat. Because they won production design and costume design. And here's who it beat for our direction.

This is actually a way. It was nominated for visual effects as well. Yeah, and it lost to something. It lost to inception. Okay. Thank God. A good movie. The our direction one is outrageous because literally every other movie should

have won versus it, right? Like it's number five. Yeah. Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part One, which is a very well designed movie. Yeah. Oh, all those are. Stuart Craig. Great. Well, we, uh, no, no, we both think half half-loaded princess is the one that's the prettiest. That's my favorite. That's beautifully shot. Right. Um, inception, which probably should have won, which has amazing kinds of scene production design. Incredible room. It has like really great subtle production design.

The room that they do the sessions in is really interesting. You remember that. Yeah. But you know, like, you know, a little more of a Tony period drama, but still better better better integrated better. Yeah, right. True grit. Incredible looking movie. Yeah.

It is incredible. The other nominees in this category are all best picture nominees as well. Good point. Well, not Harry Potter. Oh, fuck right. I forgot. I mean, maybe it should have been. No, that is crazy that Alice wins.

Crazy. I mean, it's winning because it's most production design. I guess we would I mean, maybe it should have been, who knows? That is crazy that Alice wins. Crazy, that, I mean, it's winning because it's most production design. I guess we would all agree, right? But I'm, and then he off that Oscar gets to become one of those people who makes a $200 million debut film. Yeah, exactly.

And like the production design in this movie, as we've already said, is of heart. The, it looks bad. The sets are lame. Yeah. The concept art, like the weird plants, the buildings and shit, lame. Yeah. The funer- like the weird plants, the buildings and shit, lame. Yeah.

The funer-wacken, as we noted, is done in front of like a fucking arch. Like that's it, like some kind of like rocks and bears. I know it's all supposed to echo stuff in the real world, but it's fucking. But it's so sloppy. I mean, they don't really even ride that out. Well, this movie doesn't commit to anything.

I feel like the costume wins a little more defensively, but also shit defensive. But that's like, I mean, you know, my girl Colleen's done a much better work than that. Colleen at what defeated. I am love a great costume nominee. Yes. The King's speech, which has wonderful costume. The tempest Sandy Powell. If you're going to give that wild ass costumes, right, anything. Give it. And true great, which has beautiful Mary Zofrie's The Cohen's regular collaborator. Those great costumes, you're mad about it. You think True Grit went all for ten? Made a little tinny catcher.

Oh for ten? Oh for ten. Yeah, outrageous. Oh for ten. What a masterpiece. What a huge brick house. It was. Not Cohen's.

Yeah. Just grit. Can you believe that though, that there is a Cohen Brothers movie that grossed 180 million domestic? Yes. Because it's great. Yeah, but it's all their movies are great. No, I agree. No, it is weird that one of their films will perform so well. That movie you think is like, oh yeah, it'll make 70. It'll be like a, yeah, like a big hint for them. Exactly. Yeah, at least of no country money. Right. But it was like number one for like four weeks. Yeah. Um, it's.

That was like the the winter that was Jeff Bridges king of the box office. It was like Tron Tron and True Grit were one and two for weeks on it. And now they're doing a combo sequel called Tron Grit. True Tron. I do want to ask if you I fight for you. Sir, I do want to ask if you I fight for you, sirs. I do want to ask if you guys think this movie has had any Cultural impact because I say no, but like I feel like I see that madhatter a lot like when I you had to go to Comic Con mini Years a row. You see like I think it's just a pit of now though. I literally saw an ad for the app tick-tock the other day The feature to guy who dresses up as the mad hatter and performs his TikTok. I feel like there was still a good amount of it somehow inexplicably through like 2015.

I feel like I don't see it that much anymore. Like I went to both the Disney parks, the North American Disney parks in the last year, and it's fully just Jack Skellington land again. Good. It is that weird thing where we talk about what happened in Tim Burton and there's this just Jack Skellington land again. Good. It is that weird thing where we talk about what happened in Tim Burton, and there's this thing of just like Jack Skellington,

the movie he didn't direct, but like his like, pure brainchild kind of thing, has become such an overpowering mascot of like what he represents, that it feels like Disney just backs up the brain trunk to his house and goes like, can you just try to make someone like that again, please? Right.

Please. There's a rumor that they're gonna do a fucking live action nightmare for Christmas now, which is just like a- That's so stupid. So stupid. I think reverse idiocy. I think that's a better concept than movie. I don't think it's a bad movie.

I just think the concept is so much better. But the key also is that that movie is like 71 minutes long and that Henry Selix is genius. Yeah, I mean, I guess right, we're there just thinking like, well, now the tech has caught up that movie is like 71 minutes long and that Henry Selix is genius. Yeah, I mean, I guess we're right. We're there just thinking like, well, now the tech is caught up that we can do it live action. But the songs are so gorgeous. Like that movie is closer to the old Disney animated films

that are super short, straight to the point. It will be one of those things to where it's like Beauty and the Beast where they're like, remember that like 90 minute movie? Well, this adaptation is two and a half hours long. Yes. Do you know that Tim Burton and Linda Woolversson have been threatening to do a Broadway musical of this? Really? Yes. If they do, I'll come back. She said she's working on it. Is that like part of

like racist negotiations or something? We're like, we'll take that off the table if you stop gasping people. Because there's that weird threat. Tim Burton was going to direct the, what's his name? Jim Shaman, Batman musical in the early 2000s. Do you remember that? Shout out to Hell, Jim Shaman. I know him. Wrote an entire book for Batman musical. Batman out of Hell.

That's what it was gonna be called. Are you serious? No. But he wrote an entire Batman musical that Tim Burton was gonna direct on Broadway. They announced it in the trades. And some of the songs have leaked out. He repurposed some of them for like that at a hell three. But the one that

I like is called I work the graveyard shift. And it's Batman talking about working late nights. I'm seeing it sounds kind of great. Y'all shift. You've also got songs called in the land of the pig, the butcher is king. Sounds like. Which sounds like a gym style, man, son. Yep. Um, uh, we're still the children we once were. What's going on? I don't know. Wait, are we done, Ben?

I gotta edit snow keys, fucking podcast. Sorry. We gotta do ads. Yeah. You gotta do ads. I gotta. Where do you get all this wonderful toys? That's one of the songs.

That's the Joker's song. Anyway, if he, uh, if he comes, uh, you know, a knock and knock and on Broadway's door, we'll bring you back Todd. Wonderful. And if not, with Let's Have You On for a Movie, you don't despise down to its core. Oh, well, you can alternate. Yeah, we can, that's, that's my plan. It's on your favorite, some of your lease dates. It's a gem and a, and a turd. No, you know, I can just stick around and give you some throwaway lines to stick into the ads that are going to go on this episode. So I can be like, wow, that's what great we had to say about Robin Hood Chancellor, Angola Merkel. You want to give us a quick four, no specifics. Talk about products without saying the content.

I definitely wish it give Ben work to do. Yeah, talk, talk, give us three quick ad reads, personal experience ad reads without naming the products. I really use this product and it's a thing that I brought into my apartment and my cats All loved it and my wife loved it and now they all love me more and I'm not getting divorced anymore Okay, one Ben Mark that is a select two The second is wow this product cured my scoliosis. Okay, Mark that is a select three This product made me feel good about the state of the world today. And third select and I think that's a wrap on Todd.

I'm sorry, I got a plug shit. I'm sorry. No, I was going to say. Plug please. The new podcast is called Primetime. It's coming to your pod catcher of choice on April 11th. Oh, yeah. I've also got another podcast called Arden.

I'm not in it, but I wrote it. And people seem to like it. Fiction podcast, fiction podcast. And that thinks it's a lot. Scripted podcast, my dad thinks it's a lie. He won't speak to me. But you could find that a first season's out on pod catchers. I also have a book, Monsters of the Week.

X-Files companion. It is in bookstores now and you can find me on Vox and at Twitter, TV OTI to vote. And I also, you know, I know you're driving people the new stuff. I recommend if you got time, go, go back through the archives of I think you're interesting. So it was a wonderful show. I'm excited. We'll still be continuing in some form or another. Yes.

Listen to Griffin and David's episodes. They're great. I do have a famous goof on my mouth. Don't like that goof. What else to say here? Oh, merchandise spotlight. Tragically, embarrassingly, the last three things ever released for Disney Infinity,

my beloved video game, were Alice and the Mad Hatter. Yeah, you told me that right. After they had canceled it, they were like, fuck, we already made these. You know, you know, how's the Cusca did the voice? Yes. For Alice. Yes. Sure, she was compensated.

They made a time one too. Sasha Brandt conned Giant Up didn't do their voices, but I have fucking Alice and Wonderland and Mad Hatter figures that are in a box that I'll never open ever again. Not like so in their packaging, like I open them and then blood started seeping down my walls and I locked them up and I've craten through them in the back of the ocean. Right, you're your house, 1408 it or?

Yes, it's 1408 it, I had a full blast 1408. That is a 1408, there it is. Todd, thank you so much for being here. It was great to be here. King amongst men. Next week, dark shadows. Oh my god, Todd standing up, doing the footer whack.

Yeah. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da- I'm watching Mrs. Peregrin and Alice Wonderland. I like Dark Shadows a lot more now. It's got some energy. It's got some energy. It's got a little bit of it. We recorded that episode when we were more in the actually good burn zone. We recorded that right after recording Beetlejuice. We were like, what's this thing?

You're right. And now you're like, oh, we're turning to form for Timothy Burns. He appears to have given instructions to the actors. Like now, when we were recording the episode, I was like, why did I stand up for this movie at the time? And I'm like, I should have fought for it.

Hard to answer. Anyway, thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, if you subscribe, go to blankies.rad.com for some real nerdy shit. Go to Teapubble for some real nerdy shirts. Go to Patreon for some real nerdy bonus content. And I wanna thank Pat Reynolds and Joe Bowen for their artwork and for Go Doe for social media, Lane Montgomery for his theme song. And as always, keep funering that wagon.

Whoa, gross. Well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well,