Blank Check with Griffin & David - Basic Instinct with Miriam Bale

Episode Date: January 28, 2018

Film critic Miriam Bale joins Griffin and David to discuss 1992’s sexy thriller, Basic Instinct. But what about the dialogue gives away this is a Eszterhas script? Does Jeanne Tripplehorn always play herself? Where are there cowboy bars in San Francisco? Together they examine the careers of Michael Douglas and Sharon Stone, ice picking, the infamous leg crossing scene and poor Beth. This episode is sponsored by RXBAR and Audible.

let me ask you something rocky man to man I think she's the podcast of the century. Rocky? That's how it's written. He calls her Rocky. My Douglas is not very good. That's one of the worst ones. I didn't even know you were doing him, really. I guess you just do a lock job.

No, but now I'm sounding like a... He's got a very specific voice, and you're not doing it. I can't do it either. It's a bit greasy.'s it is greasy everything about it we've talked about what a run he's having at this point unbelievable we talked about in a previous episode how incredible it was that he became such a major movie star just being a piece of shit like that was his whole brand was just like what a piece of shit this guy he loves to grit his teeth though it is a lot of like yeah yeah fuck you i can't do it though no yeah whatever anyway uh

hello everybody my name is griffin i'm david sims uh this is blank check with griffin and david no we love it when guests talk before they're introduced you have a point you're burning to me clearly please i was just gonna introduce myself but i didn't wait so go ahead no no no no it's totally fine uh you're you're killing it so far this is what we like uh it's perfect uh this podcast called blank check the griffin david uh on it we talk about filmographies directors who had massive success early on in their career and were issued a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. And this is a miniseries on the films of Paul Verhoeven in Hollywood.

This is sort of the midpoint. Yeah. Right? Up until now, all hits. This continues the streak. Including this, right. Yes. Miniseries is called Podship Casters. And today we're talking about the movie Basic Instinct.

Yep. And our guest today. All right. I'm Miriam Vale. Hell yeah. Guests should introduce themselves all the time. We're terrible at introducing them. We're like, oh, they're a great person.

Hello. I like the thoughts their brain make. We're very bad at introductions. I feel like I'm caught that I haven't listened to the podcast enough to know the format. I'm so sorry. Let't listened to the podcast enough. Totally fine. Get ready for a lot of bullshit. And we'll play some for you.

Okay, let's get back to it. And we're back. It's been 50 hours. The entire back catalog. And she is not amused. No, she left. She asked if we could reschedule. We weren't lying.

This is a no Bits podcast. No Bits. Miriam, you're a very big Verhoeven fan. Yeah, but I was sort of late to him. I didn't really become a big fan until I saw this movie seven years ago or so. I think before that I'd seen Starship Troopers, which I really, really liked. And I'd seen Showgirls, which I was not as enthusiastic as some of my friends about. And then I saw this and then I like his more recent,

oh no, I saw, actually I saw the World War II movie somewhere around there. Black Book, right? Because that's about 10 years old at this point maybe 11 years old yeah around there too

and then but I love his L his most recent I really totally loved and I love

Basic Instinct I think it's like such a masterpiece they're they're probably the most twinned right like if L had a sister

in his Hollywood genre 100% in the same way that like Robocop and Starship Troopers most twinned, right? Like if Elle had a sister in his Hollywood genre. 100%. In the same way that like Robocop and Starship Troopers are twinned, you know? Yes, sure. Yeah. Yes, they're definitely paired films. Although this is more of like a out and out genre exercise.

Like this is such a noir movie. For sure. Well, I think Elle is too i have i was watching them again and yeah well for me that his um something i noticed while i was watching l is how much like it reminded me of the oshima movie max mon amour i have never seen it i i know it but i've never seen it is so good and it just follows the basic structure of this like French. The one with the monkey. Exactly. It's like a French bourgeois adultery drama, except it's about Charlotte Rampling having an affair with a chimpanzee.

Right, right, right. An ape, I should say. Great logline. Chimpanzees are apes. Sure. So sorry. And so it's sort of this weird parody of that kind of genre of that, like, adultery. And I feel the same about, like, the music in the beginning, the certain classical music, the broken china, her house.

I feel like Elle is a really, like, what Verhoeven did for American movies with, like, Robocop and with noir with this. He did for French. I've made the same point on a previous episode. I believe you have. I agree 100%. Because I saw Elle with my mother who is French and is not a huge Verhoeven fan, but knows how much I love him.

And she couldn't stop getting over how well he got, not just French culture, but French movies. How well he was aping and sort of deconstructing the French erotic thriller. And I was like, yeah, that's what I've been telling you forever. movies yeah how well he was aping and sort of deconstructing the french erotic thriller and i was like yeah that's what i've been telling you forever this guy's an outsider who knows it better than the insiders sure and it was really interesting his that outsider looking at the culture and in this because i i hadn't seen robocop in total recall until just this week

oh really awesome yeah even though i mean so i say'm a fan, but I hadn't caught up on them. And that was really interesting to see his use of television, which is more like overt parody, especially in RoboCop. And then here, it's so much more subtle. Like the TV is in the background,

but it's totally an essential part of it. It's interesting how it's related an essential part of it it's really it's interesting how it how it's related to those two yeah this is definitely more uh subtle in its satire than robocop and total recall which are arguably as much comedies as they are action films and sci-fi films you know yeah well i would say subtle i mean it's not so subtle in its noir parody, but also there's the weird like cowboy bar thing. That's when he's like, oh, America is so funny. Yes. I'm from the Bay Area.

I have not seen a lot of cowboy bars. I was going to say, because that character, George Zunza. Zunza. I forget how you say his name, which I feel bad because I love him. There's that amazing thing watching this movie. It's like he lives in Alabama like he like gets in his car every night

you know from the Bay Area and he's like alright I'm gonna go home he goes to his ranch drives to Tuscaloosa like where who is he supposed to be I know there are like

you know there's like salt of the earth Irish guys in the Bay Area too sure or Polish guys it almost feels like an earlier draft of this movie

took place in a different town. Yeah, maybe. And then they rewrote it and kept him in Montana. But I mean, well, anyway, I just think if he's making this noir parody, you need to have those guys. You need to have those guys with like the snap brim hats. He doesn't have a hat. You know what I mean?

Like the sort of rotund suspenders guys who are like, what are you doing? But you know, it's broad. She's no good. You know, there is that thing I love in this movie because this is so much the iconic Sharon Stone movie. You forget that she wasn't a huge star before

this movie. So Michael Douglas is the only one above the title in the opening credits. So it goes like Douglas, then Basic Instinct, then Stone, and you're like, wow, Stone didn't even crack above the title, and then DeZunza. It's like Stone and DeZunza

are vaguely on equal playing field at this point. I think it's just like DeZunza. I'm assuming it's a Polish name. Probably, yeah. Or Ukrainian, maybe. He's so good in this. He's really good in this. He's awesome in this. He's my favorite character, bro. I love him. You're meant to, though. He's meant this. He's really good. Awesome in this. He's my favorite character, bro.

I love it. Yeah. I mean, he's he's definitely meant to be everyone's favorite character. Absolutely. Unquestionably the most empathetic character. Like he's kind of the only person in this movie who isn't a psychopath. Right. That's true.

Right. He's a much more predictable, reliable kind of person. He's just a guy. He's got his simple vices in life. He loves this cowboy bar. Let's just a guy. He's got his simple vices in life. He loves this cowboy bar. Let's just talk about Gus. Detective Gus. When he gets to that, yeah, we're just

going to spend the whole episode talking about the scene at the cowboy bar, but I like that when he gets to the bar, he's almost pissed off that Douglas is like intruding on the one thing that gives him joy. Like he's just here drunk, wearing a big 10 gallon hat and Douglas has to come in with his like I slept with her

and it's like yeah with his like 80s shit he's like basically covered in cocaine he's like what's going on he's like I have my nice B plot here

just let me be then he starts screaming about like pussy in a diner or whatever right like that's when Michael Douglas is like alright chill out

wait a second come on yes Jesus yeah anyway we'll get to all that this is an Esther House movie.

This is the first of the two Esther House collaborations. And it definitely shows in the verbiage chosen in almost every single line of dialogue. Sure. Yeah. I mean, he had been around for a while. Yes. Because he wrote Fist. Yeah.

He wrote Flashdance. Right. What else did he write? Jagged Edge, right? Yeah. Yeah. Hearts of Fire. Sorry, sorry sorry sorry talking about it's okay what's an example of ester of ester hussie and uh uh magna cum laude pussy and i'd say i'd say that's kind of like that's what they'll put on his tombstone

he was the magna cum laude well i mean in showgirls of screenwriters showgirls is where he challenged himself to make every line one of those lines. Crafts. But even just that opening bit when they find the dead body and they say like, so he got off before he got offed.

I was about to say that. There come stains all over the seat. Very impressive. And then Gus almost runs into me. He got off before he got off. They're not going to say that. Sorry. I'm really blowing up the seat. Very impressive. And then Gus almost runs into me. He got off before he got off! They're not going to say that. Sorry. I'm really blowing up the mic. But after this discussion of just how much cum there was and the moment

of the guy putting on the night vision goggles. Not only how much cum there was, a slow pan across the stains with a corpse's penis and shot. I mean, Verhoeven's not really fucking around. At all. It's a summer release, isn't's penis in shot. I mean, like, Verhoeven's not really fucking around. At all. It's a summer release, isn't it? Maybe not.

March. March, okay. But yeah, that's how this movie opens, is full tilt, like, Verhoeven sex. This, like, very bizarre sex scene that becomes, like, I feel like 10 years of shitty stand-ups doing jokes about, like, you know, real sex of shitty stand-ups doing jokes about like,

you know, real sex isn't the way they make sex look in the movies. You know, in the movies, it's always like. It's a bit of a red shoe diary. Definitely. Right? Well, let him finish his act. I was going to see where it was going. Ben's here.

Producer Ben's here. The Bandusers here. The Purdue-er Ben is here. The Poet Laureate. The Haas. Mr. Ben's here. Producer Ben's here. The Ben-do-cer's here. The Purdue-er Ben is here. The poet laureate. The Haas. Mr. Positive. Mr. Haas. The tiebreaker.

You know, they make sex look like the peeper. You know, like it's only had between attractive people in the movies. You can wish him a hello, panel. You should see some of my ex-girlfriends. Please. He's graduated certain halls over the course of different minisers. I'm just working out my tight five, David. Kylo Ben. Producer Ben Kenobi. What do you think? Ben Eichelman. ex-girlfriends he's graduated certain talls over the course of different miniseries I'm just working out

my tight five David Kylo Ben producer Ben Kenobi what do you think Ben Eichelman when he does this I look at my emails no I know

I'm talking to you though I'm talking over Warhaz that's a new thing Ben 19 the fennel maker are you into that sorry about that Miriam we got some stuff

we gotta do yeah yeah yeah that's it though right we're done that's it but also I'll say in that opening scene, Gus has the great line that makes him so sympathetic about that. He notices the Picasso, so he's like, we cultured.

And he's like, but hers is bigger. He's got so many. There's also the line about the civic-minded, responsible cocaine, which I think is very funny. These are all Esther House lines that I like. We have this very ecstatic, over-the-top sex scene that's very similar to how Verhoeven depicts violence,

which is impressionistically having people behave in a way that isn't realistic to show what sex feels like rather than how sex looks. I do think you see the warning signs of his sex in showgirls in this movie where it's like it's so exaggerated and athletic you know and like leaning towards like totally unerotic which is where he then right like tips over

overly aggressive and also also looks physically painful. Right. Bodies aren't supposed to bend in that direction. It just sort of looks like a workout. You know what I mean? It looks like a workout. It looks like a real, it looks exhausting. Let's just put it that way.

Also, in the opening scene, we're not seeing her face, so we can be sort of like in the dark as to whether it's her or not. Yes. And I find that somewhat distracting where I keep being like, no, yeah, okay, still. There's a bit of a cousin going on yeah that's um and then of course she produces an ice pick and and stabs him thoroughly through the face yes did you watch it on netflix because they have the unrated cut on netflix and it's got this uh this horrifying like stab in the face oh no i watched the blu-ray no, I watched the Blu-ray.

I don't know if it was... The Blu-ray probably has it, too. I think the Blu-ray at this point is the underrated. They had to edit out some of the harshest stabs for the R rating. Do you know what's the crazy stat I read, which I cannot even begin to process? He has only had one movie

that wasn't originally rated X out of his Hollywood films. There's only one film that he didn't have to go back and cut stuff out of. And it was hollow man, which honestly, yeah, which is insane. Probably be rated NC 17,

but all the other ones were originally rated NC 17. And then most of them. Now the NC 17 version has become the circulated version. Right. Um, only one of them was released NC 17. Correct. Which one? Show. Show. Oh, which was sort of try. They tried to be like them was released, NC-17. Correct. Which one?

Showgirls. Showgirls. Which was sort of, they tried to be like, you know what, all right, fine, we're gonna see if that works.

Like, oh, so hot, you know. Right. Sensors. But now it's like, it's harder to find the theatrical version of Robocop

or Basic Instinct. Right. So, right, very, very graphic ice pick. A very, very specific weapon. This movie treats ice picks like their house keys. Like there's something that everyone, he says you can get it at a Kmart or whatever for

a buck 95. Yeah. But also when's the last time you went over someone's place and they took out a giant block of ice and picked at it rather than just getting a fucking 99 cent ice cube tray. Maybe knew the cocktail mixologist. Maybe they do it. You can remake it. Right now it's a heightened artisanal thing.

You could do like a cocktail basic instinct crossover, like mashup. Yes. About an ice pick murderer. But you would have to do that. If you made this movie today, you would have to justify like, oh, he's really into artisanal cocktails. Like you'd have to have like rhubarb in his shelf, you know? Yeah, he works at the cowboy bar. He does like, he does sex on the beaches over there.

It's an ironic cowboy bar. Right. You know, speaking of bars, David, let's say hypothetically. Man walks into a bar. No, no, no. Sorry. I'm not a hack, okay?

No street jokes on this podcast. All homegrown bits. Hypothetically. Man walks into a bar. No, no, no. Sorry. I'm not a hack, okay? Yeah, you're right. No street jokes on this podcast. All homegrown bits. Mm. Let's say hypothetically. Yeah. I got a friend. Okay, a hypothetical friend.

And that friend was cast to play a superhero based on an underground cult comic book, which was then turned into an animated Fox Kids show. Yeah, Mothman. A short-lived sitcom in the early 2000s, right? You're talking about Griffey Nooms. No, it's a hypothetical friend of mine. Sure. Okay?

And the character was historically a little more retuned. Uh-huh. And then the pilot came out and people were like, oh, why isn't this guy fat? Yeah, you're a skinny guy. I'm talking hypothetically about a friend. Yeah, what's your hypothetical question? And then that person gained like eight or nine pounds and was like, oh, this is going to be great.

All the friends are going to like thank me for like gaining weight to look like the character. I'm like the Robert De Niro of superhero satires. Hypothetically, my friend said this. And then no one said anything good. And then he just felt really tired. And so when hypothetically the show got picked up for a second season, he was like, fuck that extra weight. I should just be in good shape. Yeah.

Okay. Do you have a question? What would be like a good way? To get in shape. Well, no, I'm just saying like, you know, cut down on the snacking to eat right. You eat garbage. I usually eat garbage. I don't mean to, you know, tag you here, but you don't eat good.

They call me Billy Goat Griff because I usually eat out of garbage can. Would you rather eat like a whole food bar made with whole ingredients that like is up front with the customer about like everything that goes into it? Yeah, because here's the thing. If I'm going to eat garbage, I want to know it's garbage right sure then a lot of these protein bars they pretend that they're healthy right but they're just like it's just like you're eating a reese's wake up sheeple yeah okay our sponsor this week rx bar yeah i mean you're asking the question but you love these things you should be pitching me they. They sent me a box. Yeah. I've been eating these things up like crazy. Yeah.

I have fun eating them. I'm sitting on my couch in my apartment, afraid to leave, haven't seen air in 36 hours because I have severe anxiety. Sure. And the winter is bad for me. Yeah.

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Lose those seven pounds for season two. Very relatable. Everyone can relate to that. So, bloody murder, and then immediately who they call in, the greasiest cop in San Francisco, Michael Douglas. Yeah, fresh off like shooting someone

while high on coke. Yes, right. Or like shooting two people or something. Yes, and a cop. He's the worst person in the world. Right. In a shootout, where he was undercover in a drug bus, where he got too deep and became addicted to cocaine himself.

He shot two tourists and another cop and did not shoot the people he was supposed to shoot. What was he shooting at? Right. Then his wife committed suicide. They assigned him a therapist to work through his issues and he started a torrid sexual relationship with the therapist he also bought a nice leather couch

and put it in his crappy apartment the most depressing apartment I have ever seen and I've lived in some depressing apartments so he's not doing well

but the movie doesn't care because he's Michael Douglas and that's his brand I feel like when you see him with a V-neck sweater. I was going to bring up that sweater.

Oh my God. That fucking look. That's such a look. Only that's like to me that if you need a snapshot of Michael Douglas, that's it. Yes. It's a deep green V, but a deep V. And I feel like the sleeves are rolled up maybe. I can't remember.

Yeah. And the V is kind of pulled down. It's a, you're right. It's a deep V. And I feel like the sleeves are rolled up maybe. I can't remember. Yeah. And the V is kind of pulled down. Right. It's a stretched V. I mean, the clothes in this movie are very thought through. Yes. Like I would say in general. Yeah. I want to find it.

Here it is. I found it. Ha ha. Yes, the sleeves. I was right about the sleeves. They're pulled up. Oh, yeah. To a bar you wear this.

Yeah. Like what? This is your choice? my god that's picture dancing to like techno music yeah and everyone else all the women are dressed in this like very expensive looking you know club clothing and he's like uh what's your name the j crew but the bar looks like a converted church that's now decked out with neon yeah right it's like a step away from like the matrix right everyone else looks like they're in zion and michael douglas comes in he really he really makes it work though i mean look at him how what's your opinion on uh michael

uh miriam well um i think he's just the worst and he's so good at being the worst and he's always the same like this and fatal attraction and he's he's so he's so good at just being awful but i was also obviously in this movie he's like he brings up he quotes his dad a lot because it's like a 50s noir yes you're always aware of greg douglas and you're always aware that this is a noir but this is like this sleazy noir that's just like somehow related but fucked up and gross. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's like a coked up noir, I guess. There's this quote I remember.

It's a noir who then accidentally shot a couple of people and moved to a crappy apartment. Right. There's this quote I always remember about Adrian Lyon going to like a test screening of a fatal attraction and being frustrated at how much the audience was still on michael douglas's side right right where he was like jesus christ like they just saw you sleeping with another woman and they're still rooting for you and he just had this thing where

he owned being a piece of shit so hard but somehow like even if he wasn't sympathetic he was compelling but so i want to talk about him for a second actually. So, because you know, his early career, he was on this show, The Streets of San Francisco and that he was like

the young handsome cop guy and then he's in movies and like, I like him in The China Syndrome where he's like the nice cameraman who's just like along for the show. Like,

he's not trying to dominate that movie at all. But you're missing a big step. Go ahead. The Kirk Douglas shadow loomed really, really large over him. He had a hard time making it and then he got Streets San Francisco, but it was like, that's a TV guy.

TV guys don't cross over into movies. He got really into producing. Yeah, he produced One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Which was meant to be a vehicle for him. Right. He kept on buying rights to things to try to make vehicles for himself, and everyone was like, we're not going to cast you. You're a fucking TV actor. Get Nicholson in here.

Right. So he wins an Oscar for producing One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, but is frustrated that he wasn't in it. I think China Syndrome he also produced or bought the rights to. Yeah, he produced it. Right. He had to fight his way into being the third lead of that movie. And he produced Romancing the Stone, which is his big lead breakup, in which he's kind of like Indiana Jones if Indiana Jones was a little more of a piece of shit. Indiana Jones is kind of a piece of shit but he has that 10-year run where he makes himself a movie star

through becoming a good producer first but then this working his way into his own project this run is what I want to talk about is that you got Fatal Attraction and Wall Street in 87 which is like back-to-back same year okay right and he wins best actor um yeah Black Rain in 89 the um Ridley Scott movie uh The the War of the Roses which is a bleak great it's great it's a great movie

but yeah and then Basic Instinct and in 93 he has Falling Down and in 94 he has Disclosure

which is sort of like Basic Instinct but Basic Instinct was so bad you know what I mean like a sex thriller with absolutely no intelligence

whatsoever so is this the end of his run? I feel like yeah. This is the last good part of his run. And then Disclosure is where he's trying it one more time and it's like no forget it. Because then in 95 he makes The American President which is him playing a really upstanding guy for once.

And then it sort of becomes warmed over cop thrillers. It becomes Don't Say a Word. He's in The Game which I love him in. Oh, right. I think that's a great movie. And he's really good in that. I think that movie's a lot of fun.

But you know what? That movie's like what if you just fucked with that guy. Right. And by that point, he's kind of broken. Like that movie is like the sad shell of Michael Douglas. Yeah. And then he's in A Perfect Murder, you know, the terrible Island for Murder remake. Yes. And then Wonder Boys, you know, the terrible Dial-In for Murder remake. Yes.

And then Wonder Boys, you know, and then, right, then he's becoming like Daddy Douglas, you know, Traffic. Right. Those sorts of, you know, gray-haired Douglas.

That's a big shift for him. Yeah, and now he's become more of a character actor. He married Catherine Zeta-Jones. Yeah. He got cancer, and everyone fell in love with him all over again.

He's had a wild ride. It's crazy. But he started spending like... Now he's an ant man, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But also fucking Liberace behind the candelabra, which is so fucking good. That's a good performance.

That's a really great performance. Soderbergh gets great performances out of people. And Soderbergh like in 2000 when they were working on Traffic was like, have you ever thought about playing Liberace? And it took him like 15 years to get that movie made. Huh, yeah. And it had to be for HBO.

It had to be for HBO and Douglas had like cancer remission, cancer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like they kept on pushing it off because that was like

the big role for him. But other than that, he's mostly been playing supporting stuff now. Yeah. He's elder statesman and stuff. But this is, as you were and stuff but this is as you

were saying like this is like shit yeah shit heel you know kind of charming sweater wearing asshole michael douglas he's also so creepy in this like something like he's terrible like you look at you look at fatal attraction where it's like oh he's sleazy but he's like charming that's the key to the whole right like fatal attraction is like what if you cheated on your wife what if bad stuff happened this one's like what if you had shot a couple people and you were in a coke spiral and then you decide to sleep with maybe a serial murderer? Like, every time he's on screen, I just want to take out a garden hose and just, like, pin him against the wall and just fucking hose him down and be like, get your shit together.

Is he even good at his job? Oh, he's pretty terrible at his job. He's the worst at his job. He's, like, pretty bad, right? He's gonna be called bad cop. Like, a lot of people get murdered. Yeah, if he may have been sleeping with the... Yeah, he keeps on fucking...

Suspects and with his psychiatrist. Yeah, everybody. I mean, I'm surprised he doesn't, like, make a move on George Zunza. Yeah, that scene where, like gus starts freaking out in the bar and like saying pussy a bunch it's like i almost view that as like a manic breakdown because he's like who the fuck are you you have to stop doing this stop sleeping with everyone he also has the exact same seduction technique in every scene which is just clenched jaw unbroken eye contact very slowly walking towards him sure like it's just a very

deliberate shark in the water until he gets up next to them and then he's just like I think that the key to his appeal is that he's kind of dumb and like in all of these roles

there's something a little bit kind of charming or helpless about someone who's that dumb like even his like the fuck of the century line

like he's like I thought she was the fuck of the century line. He's like, I thought she was the fuck of the century. What did you think? Something really like, what do you think? He is dumb enough to walk out of

very wild sex with Sharon Stone naked, walk into the bathroom, Roxy walks in, he just sort of reacts like, oh, hey, what's up? You know,

not like, what is this? What is this? You're watching? What's this whole situation? Also, when you get to the later scene reacts like oh hey what's up you know like not like right what is this what what is this you're watching like what what's this whole situation also when you get to the later scene a little bit later with sharon stone when he's like i mean that was the greatest of all time right and she was like fucking idiot it was fine sex whatever it was on top of you like what this blows your mind that's true that scene is perfect yeah yeah she's really good in that scene she's

for just being like yeah kind of clueless he is sorry yeah but so sharon stone we should say you know she's in total recall which i think she's so good in i mean that's such a funny like like version of this like sort of proto version of this performance uh where she's giving like her character is giving such a great performance but like apart from that she was a nobody she was pretty much unknown

and Douglas signs on to this and says the only way the movie is going to work is if we have someone of equal stature playing Catherine Tramiel he fought really hard

to get an A-lister he was really keen on Julia Roberts playing this part which would have been a nightmare probably would have been really bad

that's like hook era Julia Roberts and I like Julia Roberts but I also, which would have been a nightmare. Probably would have been really bad. That's like hook era Julia Roberts. And I like Julia Roberts, but I also think this role cannot be played by someone who comes to the screen with any baggage prior to this movie. Imagine Julia Roberts in this movie. But she was never going to do it.

No, every actress turns it down. She had made Sleeping with the Enemy the year before, which is sort of like a kind of bad watchable version of... Sure. Like, it's a, whatever. It's like a sort of R-rated thriller, I guess. Every established actress they offer to turns it down point blank.

Yeah. Just goes, I don't want to do this nudity. I don't want to play this character. Right. You know, any of this. Any of this. So Verhoeven,

who had worked with Sharon Stone, goes, I think I know who it is. And Douglas was like, I'm not... She's a nobody. You can't cast her. She's not not gonna be able

to hold the screen against me and had to do like vigorous screen testing to finally get him to sign off on her and it's insane to think like this movie wouldn't exist

if it wasn't her it wouldn't work no it would be shitty yeah and even watching it now it would be about like an asshole cop

like that's it it would just sort of be like a weird yeah right she was like Sharon Stone exists to be able to play this one role in this movie not that she hasn't given other good performances whole cop like that's it it would just sort of be like a weird yeah right she was like sharon stone exists to be able to play this one role in this movie not that she hasn't given other good

performances but like this is why she was put on this earth she's really good though whenever i've seen her in anything she's really good and then she's also like has that same echo of like he echoes his father in this sort of inadequate way and then but she i was thinking recently i don't know you guys probably haven't seen the new movie that's about gloria graham have you uh no but uh i mean i'm excited that what's it called um it's it's okay but somehow annette benning gets the doesn't quite get the gloria graham thing they say that, oh, she always plays the tart. And it's more like she's doing like a Marilyn Monroe or something. She gives this kind of little girl breathy kind of thing.

And it's like the whole movie can kind of only conceive of the tardy blonde as like this Marilyn Monroe. And I was like, that's wrong. What was it that Gloria Graham was doing? And there's something. Gloria Graham was kind of dirty. She's kind of dirty. She's kind of knowing. And there's something Gloria Graham was kind of dirty she's kind of dirty and she's kind of knowing

and there's something kind of scratchy about her voice not just girly and I feel like this is something Sharon Stone really gets to she might have been good

I mean I saw she's in the disaster artist you know she has that one scene she's really good which is a really funny scene yeah I was angry that she wasn't

in the rest of the movie right anytime I see her I'm like oh I'd love you know I'd love a Stone comeback. She makes like tons of movies, but they're all like direct-to-video type things. She's, I mean, a good actress, and she also is one of those people who is fluent in camp when she needs to be.

And I think it ended up hurting her reputation because sometimes people thought she went too big and thought she couldn't control it, that she didn't know what she was doing. But anytime she's big in a movie, I think it's very cannily done. I mean, she's very aware and she's playing to the size of the film. It's interesting that Basic Instinct 2 literally killed her career. Now, if you're looking at her resume, that's sort of the last

big movie she was in. Yeah, yeah. I guess that was her being like, well, I guess it's time to make this. Because maybe Basic Instinct killed her career. It both made and killed her career. It kind of did.

Because, you know, obviously after this, she has Casino and that's when she gets her Oscar nomination. And that's her sort of like, God,

she's good in that. Right, where she's like, I'm just going to like, amplify. Now I'm legitimate. And that's where Scorsese from everyone

is just being like, more, like just as big as you can go. Like this is the Coke movie. Like Sharon Stone is, if nothing else, capable of not holding anything back.

Like my whole take on casino is that's Martin Scorsese, like finally exercising his cocaine demons. You know what I mean? Where he's like, let's, let's just put it out there. This is what we're really like when we're doing that. Right.

But then she has a really bad run of like Diablo. Well, even before then, because after this is a sliver, which is sort of the bad version of this. Right. But then she has a really bad run of like Diabolique. Well, even before then because after this is Sliver. Right. Which is sort of the bad version of this movie. Exactly.

And then last action hero. Oh, that's just a cameo. You know, then The Specialist which is another bad version of this movie. Quick and the Dead which I kind of wish

was a better movie. I've never seen it. The Raimi movie. The Western. And then Casino and then Diabolique. You know, it's like all these where they're finding the right kind of Sharon Stone projects. None of them are good, yeah.

But they're kind of like ripping off Basic Instinct. They're ripping off that vibe. I think you're onto something, though, where like she exists as this really interesting neo-noir type, right? Yeah. noir type right yeah where like all the the peak noir films are still made in like an era where you could not be overtly sexual it always had to be subtextual you had to like toe the line of that haze code and so the power of someone like gory grant comes from like inferring as much as you can without actually showing something or saying something yeah and then sharon stone is that character with all the subtext removed.

Like she's the fully weaponized version of the like femme fatale. Weaponized is exactly right. Right. She's like very aggressive and maximalist. And yeah, just super violent, super sexual. Like there's no double entendre. She's just like saying everything out in the open. Well, another person who was like that is dorothy malone who was in this movie and i think the fact that i saw this movie after i had seen i when i saw this movie i had seen way more dorothy malone movies than i had seen verhoeven movies right and so to me like

her she signaled exactly what was going on with this movie this is like her last movie right like i think this she didn't make i think it And she's, I almost want more of her. Cause it's such a good idea to have her as this, a good idea, like the echo of the, you know, the past Nora movies, like the,

the previous femme fatale is like her buddy. Like, so literally like she was her character, Hazel Hopkins, Hazel Dawkins, like murdered someone in 1956. Right. And like,

you know, which was kind of the peak of Dorothy Malone's career when she was doing those Cirque movies. And I just love that. I feel like that's such a great echo of—and she's another one, like The Big Sleep. I think Kim Morgan said something about The Big Sleep is a movie about a sexy book clerk or something. Because she's the sexy book clerk who like dominates it with a and she kind of takes it to the edge actually as far as like that sleaziness

and in a lot of her performances which I appreciate. Her official credit in The Big Sleep is Acme Bookshop Proprietress which is a really funny credit. I just wanted to shout that out. But it's also like a sexy book clerk.

That'd be great. Right at the beginning you're like the little credits list. The iconic thing of this movie wanted to shout that out. But it's also like... A sexy book clerk. That'd be great. Right at the beginning, you're like, no, no, no. Right. A little credits list. The iconic thing of this movie is that like,

and I think it's iconic not just because it was like unprecedented at the time, but also just because of like the semiotic power of what it's saying is that like, whereas up until now,

you have people like making double entendres or like the way they smoke the cigarette is as sexual as you can get. This is a movie where someone literally like uncrosses their legs. And it's like there's nothing being held back anymore. I was going to say, and that's unusual in some ways, but it's also, I mean, I think that her, she really, she just later disowned that.

She said that she didn't want to do it. Much later, she said she didn't know it was against, she was in a way without consent. She didn't know it was being, and I am so, I totally tend to,

I believe women, but I kind of tell that she didn't know what was going on because there's the whole line where she's like, you know I don't wear underwear. It's set up by other scenes

and reference after the fact. Right, well we see her dress yeah and she's naked and puts on a dress yeah and then right there's the thing and like it's so the dress that she's gonna wear in that scene exactly yeah right and it's so obviously crucial right and it's funny because i remember i had heard a story maybe before some interview with verhoeven where they weren't sure if they were going to put the shot in because they were like you know this is obviously salacious stuff you know right like so and then in the editing room apparently the editor was like well here's here's what it looks like and he was just like yeah that's you know like we we should have this in the movie but i mean maybe she didn't know i I mean, I'm sure she didn't know. She didn't know what it was going to look like. She knew this was part of the script.

Her argument that she made, which she made when she was making Basic Insignia, when she was on the press tour for that, that's when she brought all this up, was that he had asked her to take off the underwear because it looked bad on camera or something. There was a sheen that was like... And that she didn't know it was going to be uh you know a shot like you know what i mean but but even it's odd to think about it as

you say because it seems so inherent to the whole first act of the movie is that she does that yeah so i don't i don't know i mean you know i guess you could just have this sort of like she uncrosses her legs reverse shot them, them all freaking out. That's the thing. Within the body of the film, she's not wearing underwear. And also, she as an actress so deliberately plays that move, that movement with so much authority of the crossing and uncrossing of the legs.

That it's like, how does she not... You do charge me for smoking. That's another Esther House classic. The other thing is, it's like, I wonder if more of her regret stems from what that moment became

well obviously it's the defining part of her career right her career like now exists in the shadow of this one moment

this one part of her body totally and it works in the film so well 100% and it like it's in it just works

and it also works in the film where she's in power of this moment you know and it's very like I mean that's why I love that scene so much where it's in it just works and it also works in the film where she's in power of this moment you know and it's very like I mean that's why I love that scene so much

where it's the cops are basically like so let me get this straight you just had sex with the guy and you're not in love with him and she's like

yeah we were just fucking and they're like and you enjoyed this you enjoyed the sex with the man for an extended period of like a year and a half you were having sex

with him you know and she's like uh huh and a half you were having sex with him you know and she's like uh huh and Wayne Knight in the performance that should have won best supporting actor

that year god the sweat from these guys these are the greatest reaction shots I think I've ever seen in a film you know we talk about

how Verhoeven casts these like nerdy US treasury agent looking guys as his villains in like Robocop and Total Recall and in this

he's just got such an eye for those schlubby middle-aged cops. Chelsea Ross. With the sweat pouring off of him and the button downs. Chelsea Ross, Bruce A. Young. What's his name from The X-Files?

Mitch Pelleggi. And Daniel Van Bargen, who is the guy who gets in the face of him. You know the story that Spielberg saw Basic Instinct in theaters when he was prepping Jurassic Park. Oh, and he just loved the look away night. No, because he said, take that shot of him reacting in Basic Instinct and then make the reverse shot a T-Rex and we have ourselves a hit picture.

It's like, that's how I want him to be cowering in fear. He had such a look away night. He downplays it so much, though, because it'd be so obvious, rex and we have ourselves a hit picture it's like that's how i want him to be cowering in fear he had such a look when he downplays it so much though because it'd be so obvious especially with like verhoeven's like comically inept like schlubby pudgy balding whatever like pencil pushing types in these movies wayne knight plays his reaction shot so seriously like it's so grim and dire and he's doing so little but his eyes are just like broken. Big bulgy. Yeah and then the sweat is

so good. And he just keeps on repeating that move over and over again. Like almost every single close up in that interrogation scene is like a crazy fast push into their face. I just love that scene. Regardless of who it is. It's really true. The pushes are so good. The pushing where she leans forward

and pushes into her and they're sort of like it's so wonderfully choreographed. But he keeps on repeating that same movement over and over again. So like you cut to a Sharon Stone it's a fast push in.

Then you cut to Douglas it's a little further away but you push in just as fast and he just keeps on like resetting and pushing. I also like that it's a shooting gallery for some reason

like that's where they're interviewing her because you see the little outlines in the background and the fucking lighting on that set it's unbelievable

this is Yann DeBond like right before he decamps and becomes his own filmmaker yep who we haven't mentioned because he doesn't

shoot Robocop or Total Recall but he was Verhoeven's original guy. He's Dutch, too. You know, he shot a lot of the Dutch movies with him. Yeah. He also shot Roar, which is funny to think about.

You know, the movie where they like. Oh, right. Yes. Like made Tippi Hedren fight a lion or whatever. Yeah. But I think he, Jan de Bonk got to Hollywood earlier because he made Cujo and all the right moves. Yeah.

And then. So, yeah. So this is their like. This is the one movie they make together in Hollywood. got to Hollywood earlier because he made Cujo and all the right moves. Yeah. And then, so yeah, so this is their like, this is the one movie they make together in Hollywood. Apart from Flesh and Blood. I think DeBond had like a very serious injury on Roar.

Yeah, and DeBond? Yeah, specifically he almost died on the film, I think. A lion lifted his scalp requiring 220 stitches. Thank you. Have you seen Roar?

No. Have you seen Roar? I still haven't. It's fascinating. I wanted to see it when it sort of did the rounds like a couple years ago

yeah for those of you who don't know Tippi Hendren like remarried this man who was obsessed with lions

and thought he had to make a movie about humans and lions you dig this movie coexisting oh Ben you would fucking love this movie yeah why?

he like made this movie out of his own pocket over like five years starring his new wife and his new stepdaughter oh my god about them coexisting

with lions and they just kept on getting mauled they just had real lions wait they got mauled yeah the cast and the crew just kept getting mauled

and he would shut it down and then six months later he'd raise more money and make it like shoot another two weeks or whatever mauled is such a word yeah but they really

like they got mauled it's a word yeah but they really like they got mauled on that movie it's the one with Tippi Hedren and Melanie Griffith they're both in it yeah

it's fascinating those images they just are playing around with these big lines like they're house caps or something and they're so they like lived in

a Hollywood Hills mansion with giant lions it's sort of like Grizzly Man-esque it's like man has crossed a line here. It's fascinating because it's like watching the movie that Timothy Treadwell thought he was making

in Grizzly Man. Roar is the movie that doesn't acknowledge how dangerous they are because he wants to make this peaceful, harmonic, coexistence thing, but there's still footage where it's like that lion is trying to kill that person. There's another great lion movie called The Lion.

And it's from the 60s. It's with William Holden. Oh, yeah, yeah. I've heard of this. I've never. It's also really creepy, crossing the line. It's a Jack Cardiff movie. It's Jack Cardiff.

I love his directing. His films he's directed are so bizarre. Cardiff's directed it. Yes. Okay, yeah. He directed a ton of movies. A ton in there. But they're mostly pulpy stuff

because he was such a Tony high class like Sons and Lovers that's the one I've seen didn't he do Girl on a Motorcycle yeah yes and then he did this amazing movie about circus freaks and that eat the plants eat them and stuff and I can't remember what it's called this sounds awesome no it's so good but so is The Lion because it's like it Capustine and William Holden have a daughter together. They're divorced and they're living in Africa. And their daughter is like 12 or something and kind of like tomboyish. And she falls in love literally with a lion. She's having this like romance with a lion.

Okay. This is the second human-animal romance film you brought up today. So clearly you have some sort of like book to write here i recently realized i think my favorite sub-genre of movie is human falls in love with something that isn't human it is that is a pretty uh you know if you can pull that off yeah i'm big into those um so i i'm i'm taking notes on all these recommendations it's called The Mutations The Plant Movie that was his last movie

with Donald Pleasance and no one else I really recommend it cool this other film is the Africa Mercenaries movie oh yes

wait I just had that one Dark of the Sun I believe it's called incredible good title totally incredible set in the Congo starring Rod Taylor

ding dong do you want to get it? yeah I'll get it because I need to go to the bathroom okay Yes. Totally incredible. Set in the Congo. Starring Rod Taylor. Ding dong. Do you want to get it? Yeah, I'll get it because I need to go to the bathroom. Okay. Hello? Hello. I'm David.

I am autobiography. Okay. What is... I see. You're, of course, familiar with the film The Pagemaster. Sure. Yeah. I saw The Pagemaster when I was a kid. In which sentient books represent an entire sub-genre of literature.

Sure, it was like horror or whatever. Like fantasy, adventure. Your autobiography. Cut me out of the film. Thought I was a little dry. You seem a little dry. No offense. A little narcissistic.

Very self-obsessed, right. Right. And I love listening to myself talk about myself. Okay. But for once, i'd love to listen to someone else oh you want it like an audiobook i would love an audio but i don't want jib jab i don't want a conversation give me a real piece of literature in my ears okay all right well what do you think of audible sounds good continue well this is a company audible that's offering our listeners a free audiobook with a

30-day trial membership if you just go to audible.com slash check and you browse the unmatched selection of audio programs you can download a title for free and start listening right away it's that easy okay but what i mean it sounds like it'd probably be difficult for me to find a device that would be compatible with this uh would it work on my phone? It works on your phone. Okay, what about from my car? Sure. A tablet? Yeah. What about at home on Amazon Echo, a great company? Yes, I think that you

could easily listen to an audiobook no matter what. Audio shows, news, comedy, magazines, newspapers, business information. How does this work on a month-to-month basis? Well, if you go to audible.com slash check or text check to 500-500 to get started.

Like options. You get a 30-day trial membership. And you get a free title to start listening to right away. Right. Now, I've heard a rumor. Can you confirm or deny? Audible members get a credit every month good for any audio audiobook in the store,

regardless of price, and unused credits roll over to the next month. That's amazing. How did you know that? I just had a feeling. It was a rumor. I heard it from a bird. Now, if I didn't like my audiobook, can I exchange it with no questions asked? Yeah, of course. This is Audible we're talking about here. And are the books mine to keep, or are they going to take them back from me in the midnight? They belong to you. I like the sound of that. And are the books mine to keep, or are they going to take them back from me in the midnight? They belong to you. I like the sound of that.

I like the sound of that. Griffin, you coming back in here anytime? Hey, yeah, I finished up my poop. How's it going? We're just talking about Audible. Oh, Audible. Yeah. I did an audio book that's available on Audible.

You're telling me that our listeners with our promo code can go get a free audio book that you read? Yeah, it's called The Impossible Fortress by Jason Reculac. Okay. Reculac. I knew how to say it when I recorded it. You had to know. It's a kind of age story about video game programming.

Oh, yeah. I remember when you were working on that. In the 80s. And I'll say this to our listeners. If you've ever wanted to hear me recite a bunch of long-form code, boy, this is a good use of your free audiobook all right well i'll just remind you go to audible.com slash check or text check to 500-500 and you can get this free trial is there an option for audible to slide into my dms like i failed or is it only text or website uh text or website okay well maybe they'll work on that

okay we've drifted we drifted this is a tangent that's what we did also this movie is not short but pot light i would say like uh or i guess there's a lot of plot in it but it's sort of in that noir way where it doesn't really matter like who cares a movie where there aren't too many scenes but all the scenes are very long because they're all scenes about tension, intimidation, seduction. And sort of like cat and mouse. Like who has the, you know, where's the balance of power here? Every scene is a power balance scene in this film. So she has, you know, man killed with ice pick, right?

Right. Cops investigate ice pick murder. Right. He's a rock star who later became a philanthropist and a club owner. We've all been there. We've all had sex with this guy. We all have one of these guys in our history. Totally.

We all have a cat person and we all have a guy like this. And she wrote a book which describes this exact murder. Right. Down to the specifics of him being a rock star who then became a civilly important. Tying his hands with silk all of it so they immediately go like

well open shut that's it right no no no what I like is they immediately go like fuck she wrote this fucking book so we couldn't accuse her of this crime

it's such a good alibi yeah right which I like that I like that they're aware of that but they all think it has to be her but she's one step ahead of us we're fucked

right they bring her in Douglas goes to her house right and then it is literally like you're watching a mouse but like a really disheveled coked up mouse like walk into a trap right like that's what's right but like you go from the initial setup it's like okay the most typical version of this kind of roxy too i should and she diverts him to the right the most typical setup this kind of war movie is like very rich powerful man dies the girlfriend is the biggest suspect okay money must have been at play but then when they go to her house her house is even bigger money isn't an object they get to the door they

think they got roxy who seems a little skittish no that's her girlfriend exactly they have the when we first see a woman it's um it's the double indemnity shot where the legs and you... On the staircase. But it's not her. It's her girlfriend. Right. It's a total mystery. Played by Leilani Sorrell.

I don't know her. She was married to Miguel Ferrer. Oh, that's interesting. For 12 years. Okay. They divorced. Then who's her son? Lucas Ferrer and Raphael Ferrer. Okay. They divorced. Who's her, then is her son, who's her son? Lucas Ferrer and Raphael Ferrer.

Okay, interesting. That's very interesting. Yeah. I mean, she looks kind of like Sharon Stone. Yeah. You know, right? But like not quite. Obviously, she's just styled to look a little like her.

And she's charismatic, but not at the same level of like when Stone walks, like when you get the first shot at Stone and she's just so fucking in control. She's got such a great face. Why is Sharon Stone so magnetic? I'm trying to figure it out. I don't know. I think it's her voice especially. Her voice is great.

Her voice is scratchy. I mean, she's totally beautiful. Yes. But it's like there's something just rough and scratchy and kind of great about her. It's like there's something just rough and scratchy and kind of great about her. I think she's one of those people where she just is so good at being on camera. And it transcends just like being photogenic. But she is so aware of like how she moves, her rhythms, her energy. She seems to me like one of those actors who can like feel the lighting on her face.

Like you hear about those people who are like, can you get fill there and it's like how did they know like kate blanchett's apparently like that where she like adjusts lighting based on like feeling for her energy yeah and you hear that and you're just like god that's fucking badass but she seems like one of those people where she's just like so in control of her own screen image and so aware of how she translates onto this medium and and she's so still in this movie. She's got so many amazing scenes where she's just sort of like staring off into the distance, you know, pretty static,

but she's like completely captivating. And she just always is high status, you know? Like even in Total Recall, where she's with fucking peak Arnold Schwarzenegger, who's seven times bigger than her. And they shouldn't make any sense where she's like, oh, honey, how was work? And he's like, it was fine.

I'm sitting here right now. I like to sit, you know, and you're like, what the fuck is this? We talked about it. Every time they're in a scene together, she feels high status and he looks like a fucking doofus. You know, he does look like a doofus. And similarly, every time she's on screen

with Michael Douglas in this movie, he just looks like a doofus. And similarly, every time she's on screen with Michael Douglas in this movie, he just looks like a sad old man. Like she seems so... How old is he at this point? He has to be like 50, right? He was born in 44. 45?

So yeah, he's in his mid 40s. Yeah. And she was born... Yeah, she's a lot younger than him. Obviously, she's 14 years younger than him.

Yeah. Yeah. So she's the age of the character, which is like 30 or something. Yeah. She's a famous novelist, I guess, but she writes like airplane than him. Yeah. Yeah. So she's the age of the character, which is like 30 or something. Yeah. She's a famous novelist, I guess, but she writes like airplane thrillers. Yeah. The books don't look good.

No. It's like a lot of murdering to do just for like a shitty book. I mean, it's true. I'm literally judging a book by its cover. Yeah. Yes. But she is incredibly successful. Yes.

Probably exclusively through Hudson News sales, but she is incredibly successful. So you're from the Bay Area. This is like Marin County or something? Like what is this? Yeah, it's Marin County where I'm actually from. And so this is another thing that the location. So when they go to her house, it's I think like Pacific Heights, which is always the house in all of the Noirs. They're always in the same location.

And his apartment too is the same as like Humphrey Bog. They're always in the same location. And his apartment, too, is the same as Humphrey Bogart's in Kearney Street. San Francisco is such a small city that all these locations are used over and over again. It's so photogenic, but it's also really small. And then when they go to

her country place, it's Stinson Beach. I think that they actually filmed it in Carmel, though. I did look it up. I know Carmel because Clint Eastwood was the mayor. He was the mayor. Carmel's great. But it was supposed to be Stinson Beach, which is in Marin County. And that's another noir thing.

There's the... Have you guys seen the Joan Crawford movie Sudden Fear? The second one? Yeah. I think that's... What is it 1950 it's like early 50s i think is it 1952 52 jack palance yeah and gloria graham who we were just talking about and um there's the same uh it's there's a lot of echoes of that it's another like house on on the cliff

and you can look down and you see it there's almost the shot some of the shots are complete like almost like quotes and so this movie is so good at that of getting those those San Francisco

noir touchstones right yeah but also a cowboy bar yeah yeah a cowboy bar

oh and then another Marin County noir is Dark Passage. It starts out in Marin, and they drive. So when they're driving on those curvy roads, it's reminding me of Dark Passage, which is really similar. This is also, it's a color film, obviously, but it is so shadow-based. It is so contrast-based.

And the amount of like a glimmer of light coming through the blinds, like vertical shadows on their face stuff in this movie is like he emulates the look really well without it feeling like a pastiche. Yeah. He finds a way to modernize all that sort of like visual language of the noir. It's weird, though, because it feels very I kept in my notes. I was like, oh, it's so 80s it's it's early 90s yeah but it somehow gets that 80s the tail end yeah and the and the cocaine and the yeah but it's also funny as this movie i found out came out the same year this played the same can film festival as um fire walk with me sure right 92 yeah and so those are like i don't know one feels very more towards a little more towards the 90s

to me and this feels very much stuck in the 80s or almost like a summary like Verhoeven who's been there

being like oh I'm gonna make yeah Cocaine Noir this feels like a hangover from the 90s movie you know or from the 80s rather

it feels like a 90s set 80s hangover film where it's like Michael Douglas is like the remaining coke boogers that we have to like clear out of our nostrils.

He literally like basically washes the coke boogers. That really gets to his essence. Right? He's a human coke booger and a phenomenal actor. There's that shot of him that I think is you know it's

the shot of him that I think is really funny that that is included. Yeah. After the incredibly rough sex scene with Jean Triplehorn, where he's dressing, where she's sick of him immediately and like goes into her room and slams the door. And he dresses, he's like flat on his back and he pulls his pants on by kind of like doing the worm, you know, where it's like, oh yeah, this guy's like a fucking loser. Right. You know,

like, I mean like this is, this is him after he's done this like thing, you know, where it's just like, oh, well here I am. No pants on,

you know? Yep. Well, he's like a guy who like knows what to do in the extreme situations and in between is like, doesn't know how to behave at all. Totally unanchored. Like,

can you imagine this guy like eating a bowl of fruit loops you know what i mean like he's just like i'm hungry yeah right he knows how to strut into a room this is a guy who when orders a double blackjack uh when he wants to like start drinking again do you guys know what a blackjack is whiskey and like fucking i looked it up it's i've never heard of it is it like the speedball of liquor it's it i think it's um whiskey and kalua in a cocktail shaker like with like lemon juice it sounds disgusting yeah yeah that's awful and and like that's what he's like at his bar that's his drink give me a double blackjack right and everyone's like don't fucking do that you dummy um anyway so let's get into that right so because after all of that um the initial like you know where they bring her in for questioning and all you know the sort of the cat

and mouse game has begun right um you have uh sorry what's her name beth right beth garner um is a psychiatrist uh who he has a relationship with. You start to get this backstory of what he's been going through. The wife's suicide, his addiction issues to several different substances. He's going through some shit. He's going through some shit. She is a total unknown. This is her debut film.

Her first film. She was Ben Stiller's girlfriend. Not to tag her with that, but they had been dating for a long time she was like a stage actress and stiller was such a like it early 90s boy as like this poster child of like the gen x uh that i think they were like kind of a cool hip couple uh for sure um yeah this is her first movie and then she like kind of runs the table for like five years after this runs the table? she's doing big shit I mean she

the firm reality bites and water world are her next three movies reality bites she's barely in yeah right she's barely in but water world is like I mean certainly

that was a huge part for her to get and then sliding doors but she's the other woman and that's what's weird then right after water world and very bad things she always becomes

like low on the call sheet she's really good in big love which I enjoyed her in. She's always Jean Triplehorn, though. I've heard people refer to this movie. What a face she's got. She's totally beautiful.

She's so beautiful. But it's almost like she's not, you know, like in Zoolander when there's Billy Zane and Billy Zane is Billy Zane. She's kind of like Jean Triplehorn. It's such a wonderful name to think about. Triplehorn. Her name is so distinctive. her face is so distinctive. The era in which she was really prominent is so distinctive that she kind of sticks out of anything she's in.

Yeah, I saw someone tweeted something about this movie that I was totally in shock. I hadn't seen it for a while, and they're like, you know, when you're not sure who did it, whether it was Catherine Trammell or Jean Triplehorn. Yeah, spoilers. And there's so many things about that. She's kidding. Okay.

Yeah, no, spoiler away. So there's so many interesting things about that. Well, first of all, I was in shock because I'm like, whoa, I did not remember it being as, like, to me it was really clear. Right. Even though it's totally, like, I have a very clear point of view about this. And I did not think that it was that debatable. though it's totally like i have a very clear point of view about this and i didn't and i'm i have i did not think that it was that debatable but also just you know the katherine trammell is such a

character it's such a good noir name and then there's gene triplehorn right and it's like but that's also because beth garner like it's like it's i mean that's also because we're not her sure who she is exactly yes I mean I do think it's hard like even though the crux of the plot is did she do it you know

and they do have this whole flim flam with oh but actually she had Jean Triplehorn used to have blonde hair and they slept together in college

and she might have killed someone you know like where they're like no it could be her it could be her and you never buy it for a second

wait really I'm the opposite I totally think Jean Triplehorn do it. I don't buy it. I totally think. I have no doubt. To me, it's completely Jean Triplehorn is like, she's so creepy. She is creepy.

She is creepy. I just don't think she has the guts. Hot take. Hot take. Yeah. I know you haven't listened to this podcast, but on episode one, we solved cereal. Conclusively. We gave the answer that America wanted.

Way back when. Which is they both did it. And I think this movie is the same. Oh, you think they both did it. I think there's a Jay and Anon thing kind of going on.

I just always walk out of this. That's what I think. I think they both did. I think neither story makes sense if it's just one of them without collaboration

from the other. Wow. See, I really think Jean Triple Horn because it's just one of them without collaboration from the other. Wow. See, I really think Jean Triple Horn because she's just such a creep. And I just feel like that's an identity. She's a creep. And she gets into the, I brought up this article I wrote a few years ago called Persona Swap. And that gets, this is very noir, this movie. But it also gets into this Persona Swap movie where there's a blonde and a brunette.

And there's like a transference of power a transference of power and personality and one is really copying the other like single white female which had a big revival in the 90s

yeah single white female and Hand that Rocks the Cradle kind of tiptoes into that Hand that Rocks the Cradle is more like a fatal attraction movie where it's like what if the worst

possible thing happened after you did a mundane thing like fatal attraction what if you slept with another lady oh she boils your daughter's bunny yeah Hand that Rocks the Crola what if you got a babysitter no no you don't want you don't want to hire a babysitter just never leave your home just don't leave yeah sorry but it did it did there were a lot of in the 90s and then even like mulholland drive and there's the

blonde and like the best one yeah and like so um this to me just reminded me so and and gene triple horn is so the bad guy in those roles, in those movies. Yes. And I really bought everything about her. But I mean, of course, there's the last scene and the last shot. But to me, I am so moved by Sharon Stone and by Catherine Tramiel that I totally don't think she did. But do you think she's now like, maybe I should do it? My feeling then is

that, and I know this isn't quite logical, but just let me go with my heart. I'm with you. I love this read. You sound like Sarah Koenig falling in love with a knife. You're going to talk about how soulful her eyes are? No, but I feel like there's another movie that in this last rewatch

it was reminding me of. Have you guys ever seen the movie Bell, Book, and Candle, the Richard Quine movie? Yes. It was a common answer trivia. Yes. If you remember that. Oh, really? We became very good friends doing movie trivia night of ideology, and we always would get smarted by that one because it would come up over and over again. Because they would do so many witch categories because Maggie loved witch movies.

And so Bell, Book, and Candle was a favorite. Yes. But anyway. At a certain point, both of us were just like, fuck, why didn't we watch Bell, Book, and Candle after the last time? Like, we know it's going to come up every three weeks. That's what's Jimmy Stewart and Kim Novak. Yeah, made the same year as Vertigo. So, I mean, obviously, this movie has a lot of echoes of Vertigo.

And so that movie does too. And they're both, like, not quite Vertigo. But there's, like, in that movie, she she's this like, it's the same thing. Instead of being like the perfect woman, she's the perfect woman because, and instead of her power being her summa cum laude pussy, her power is that she's like literally a witch. And that she put a love spell over Jimmy Stewart and like this sort of thing. But it's the same vibe, like the same sort of blonde coolness.

And like, I have this power over you that you're both like attracted to and totally scared of and um and but then at the end she becomes vulnerable and there's the same the tears at the end too yeah which is in the similar place and so and to me it's like well yeah like she doesn't she's like wants to kill him because he wants her to be a stay-at-home mom. And she wants to stay. He's talking a whole mess at the end there where he's like, let's see, maybe we'll have some kids. And it's like, kids?

Some basic shit. You don't want to have children? Totally. You're going to shoot them by mistake like eight months in. Neither of you are fit to be parents. And that's very bell-bucking candle at the end. She ends up really boring and basic and terrible. And it's almost like sad.

And so I feel like to me, I always read this as like, yeah, so she's ready to stab him at the end, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with all the murders. Not to side stand jump to one of our old punching bags. I just remember how fucking bullshit is it? That moment in suicide squad where enchantress sees all their fantasies and

Harley's claims is that she lives in the suburbs with the Joker and they have a baby yeah it's terrible gross we talked about it at the time

I haven't even seen that but that is so gross it's reprehensible it's literally the witch character like goes into all their deepest fantasies she tries to like

bewitch them by showing them what they want and the way they get into that sequence is her turning on the normal setting on a washer dryer and then it pans out

and it's her and the Joker and they don't have makeup and they have a little baby and they're in like a somewhere that's green like house. Normal. Yeah. Normal. Right. Because I don't know if you know this usually the Joker is twisted.

Twisted. Agree with everything that you say. But you don't agree with me. You disagree with everything I say. I mean actually don't agree with me because you disagree with everything i say actually because you think that a different person oh no right so getting back to this i do think i think beth doesn't have the guts that's my whole argument on beth is that she is like the sort of like wishy-washy version of katherine she was obsessed with katherine but she like you know i she looks so shocked when she again spoiler when she's uh when she gets shot

at the end and i so like that to me i'm like she doesn't look like how did you figure this out she literally looks like why did you shoot me it's so diploma that ending it is with the like poncho and everything it's really great also with the you know throughout the hair like obscure you know the sort of mysterious female villain. The scene that makes the question really interesting for me is the one where Douglas goes to see Catherine after Rocky has died. Yeah.

And she's like a mess. An absolute mess. Right. And up until this point in the movie, she has always been in complete control of what she's projecting onto everyone else around her. And this, like, insane confidence to be like, I bet you think I killed her. Like, just openly baiting them into being like, I know everything you're thinking.

You think I'm guilty. Yeah, they have the whole, it's like a chess conversation. Right. Like, well, they told me, I said that you wouldn't want a lawyer. Why'd you say I wouldn't want a lawyer? You know, yeah. The lie detector leaving the clippings of the magazine the newspaper articles about douglas like all of it she's like openly inviting skepticism and fear about her right and then

this moment where she's just like bundled up in like a blanket right like a big sweater looking out the window just like broken yeah and whereas before she's been kind of flippant when she talks about like the people in her life who have died in this kind of like arched eyebrow way now she's just like i fucking hate it like everyone i know dies like i'm just this person i mean that's obviously the scene where you're supposed to be like oh maybe maybe this this she's for real and because of that scene you either have to go like okay she is the joker like she's like an incredible like arch nemes scene you either have to go like okay she is the Joker like she's like an incredible

like arch nemesis who's capable of like such extreme emotional manipulation that this is part of her plan or that she's like this weird somewhat

victim of circumstance who has now had to own it in a certain way. Sure. But I still kind of I feel like I don't know.

She's got an ice pick on her bed. I mean, I don't know. That's the thing. I mean, I have an ice pick on my bed, but that's because

I like to have ice in my bed. You'd like to do some night pickings. It's kinky. She knows what he likes. I do love how her sex move,

though, is like, that she just sort of goes like, I'm about to stab you. Let me just suddenly rush at you. Do you remember

the DVD for this movie? The DVD? Because we talked about how like... The old sort of snap case. Lionsgate was paid so much money to get Schwarzenegger to do the commentary for Total Recall. Okay. Because this was like the big blockbuster DVD era. And they also...

That's the commentary where Arnold Schwarzenegger is like, I need this scene. I'm watching TV and it's great like he just describes what's happening on screen and they paid him like a million dollars to do the commentary because they were like

maybe this is the next big thing sure but they similarly released Basic Instinct around the same time and the case was like clear blue lucite so it looked like ice

with no cover I do remember this right yes with the disc visible inside and it came packaged with an ice pick that was actually a pen. And it's the weirdest product ever.

I do remember that. Clear blue, visible disc, no other title on it and then there's just an ice pick inside of it. So it's like the movie's in ice. And then you have to pick it out with a pen which is mightier than the ice pick. It's such a mangled kind of thing

I love it I just remember Entertainment Weekly like couldn't get over that like look at how cool DVDs are now this isn't your grandfather's

home media format well I have the Blu-ray and it's just it's just a normal it's just in a case or something yeah have you guys seen

Phantom Thread yet? yes you haven't I haven't you haven't I love Phantom Thread I was just thinking it wasn't while I was watching it but you know when you say why You haven't. I haven't. You haven't. I love Phantom Thread. I was just thinking, it wasn't while I was watching it,

but you know, when you say, why does she have an, okay, I won't say anything more actually. Oh really? No, I won't,

but because, because they have a similar attitude. He can handle a mild spoiler. They just have a similar attitude towards sex. Okay. But they're very different. I think there's like no sex scenes in Phantom Thread. And these are some of the craziest, as you said, athletic.

But I think they're sexy. Fair enough. Maybe I was too hard on the sex scenes. They're very sexy. They're just extreme. I would be frightened if I were placed in a position like this. You mean in your regular life or to film a sex scene like this? Both.

Sure. you mean in your regular life or to film a sex scene like uh both sure either right i read they the sex scene the main centerpiece sex scene took five days to film which just sounds like such a hassle i did want to say right i read this interview with michael douglas i may have said this on the podcast before because it's one of my favorite quotes where he was like i i hate filming sex scenes which is nuts because he's filmed like eight that's like his belly right yeah and he's, because everyone who's watching a movie has had sex and no one's ever died.

Right. So it's so much easier to die on screen because no one knows what that's like. Sure. So I love dying on screen. I'll do it anytime you want, but I hate sex because everyone's just like

comparing it to whatever they do. That's funny. Yeah. That, because you brought it up in comparison with Showgirls, but ever since you brought that up, my mind's been going like,

what happened with that pool scene? Like what happened between the ice pick and the pool scene? But you know what I mean? But it doesn't have focus, maybe, the pool scene. Right, yes. But it doesn't have the death, which he needs. Yes, the pool scene has absolutely no purpose whatsoever, except that they need to have sex, I guess,

because they are beginning a sexual relationship. Right. But no like gravitas to the scene really and so i guess it's the idea is just she's it's it's another performance from her but also i guess as we've talked about previously he always protests that he is not heightened or stylized and how he depicts uh sex or violence and he's, I'm just the only one who shows it the way it is. He considers both of these to be like Ken Loach approaches to sex scenes. You go for it, Pauly. I like it. I love it.

I love it. I mean, I even like it in Showgirls, although in Showgirls it is just obviously funny. It's very hard to imagine. But you know, the thing I think that makes this sex scene work is like a good action sequence. It's very hard to imagine. The thing I think that makes this sex scene work is like a good action sequence. It has character beats within it. It has real performance moments. It's not

just choreography. Yes, but it is choreographed. Sure, but not just choreography. In the first sex scene that we see, do you think that... Was that Sharon Stone in a wig? I think it is. I think that is Sharon Stone. That's her body wig? I think it is I think it is I think that is Sharon Stone

that's like yes that's her body I wasn't frame by framing it but also even the moments when the hair sort of drifts away a little bit and you see

elements of it her bone structure on her face is so distinctive yeah every time you catch a cheekbone you're like

that has to be Sharon Stone or hiring someone purposefully who looks so much like Sharon Stone right that might be it too.

I'm just curious if that's been revealed somewhere. I don't know. I don't know. I'd have to, I wonder how you'd find out. I'd certainly think it's her. But so,

we should, I mean. Yeah, I mean, the main sort of like incident that we haven't covered is about halfway through the movie when he goes to see her

and she reveals that she's made him the character in her next book. Well, yeah. Doing all this research and starts revealing details that she should know. About himself, right. It's the scene at his apartment, I believe,

is where she's doing this. That comes later. Okay. It's the early one where he goes to her house that ends with him leaving and her making out with Rocky in front of him. Right.

And that's when he goes back to the precinct and flips out about, like, who gave her the file. That's when he, right, he yells at Daniel Von Bargen, however you say his name. And then Daniel Von Bargen gets shot, like, one minute later, and he is considered the prime suspect. Right. Because he freaked out. And he's found out that Gene Triplehorn gave the file to him. Right. But this is all, like like this is all film noir shit like where it's like there's just a lot of plot happening and like a lot of like wires getting crossed so that you can't guess quite

what's going to happen next but this leads to him being suspended yeah he gets suspended so now he's still there's also two car chases yes there's the one on those windy roads that you were talking about that's kind of cool and then there's the other one those windy roads that you were talking about that's kind of cool and then there's the other one where like roxy's trying to murder him that uh i i don't know but that's a car versus foot chase right yeah doesn't he get in the car at some point no right doesn't he am i wrong about i think i think there's a car chase yeah i think you know because there's like with with the big pillars and the, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the streets.

It's got the old, you know, the steep streets. Right. Like Kearney or something. Yes, yes. I think he practiced by like driving up and down Kearney Street or whatever. Yes. And that's like classic noir. What's the street that's the zigzag?

Oh, God, I've forgotten. I remember. I'm so out of that. My great aunt and uncle live in San Francisco. And whenever I visited them, they would be like, we've got to drive down the zigzag street. Or, you know, I can't remember what it's called. It's interesting how protested this movie was at the time. For its depiction.

Lombard Street. Before it came out. Well, even while they were shooting. Yes. So what exactly, at that point, I'm not quite clear on this. Like, what were they protesting? Was it the script? It must have been

the script I don't know how they figured it out like that this was a film about a bisexual woman who could be a psychopath

or whatever but that is what they were protesting obviously it's in San Francisco so maybe there was you know like that's like

the home of gay activism in this country so maybe I don't know what the logline was maybe someone got a copy of that, like. I don't know how they figured out either. I don't know what, like, the log line was. Maybe someone got a copy of the script or something. I don't know. This movie has, like, three bisexual female characters, all of whom are violent.

Roxy might not be bisexual. That's true. That is true. She could just be gay. And she likes watching. Yeah. Indeed. Wait.

She likes to peep? She is a peeper. She is a peeper. She's a peeper. That's true. And that's why you're a finest film critic. Thank you, Ben. But yeah, it's like, it gets into a thing where, not that this movie feels innocuous now, but it kind of, when you think about it within its time and place, it's like, well, you don't really have any bisexual representation in movies. And especially when, like, this was still a time very much where I think people were like, that's not real.

You're either gay or straight. I think the idea that, like, oh, here's a movie with a major bisexual character. And also it's a movie about, like, is she a serial killer or not? Yeah. Initially, like, immediately just pissed people off. Yeah, I don't know if that's a like

it's obviously not a positive depiction of bisexuality but I don't like is that was that a stereotype at the time

like bisexuals are murderous I don't think the movie draws a line in any way between the two but you know it's only a year

after the Silence of the Lambs which had a similar controversy that probably is what really and so maybe there was just some sort of like concerted effort like let's watch out for these movies Only a year after The Silence of the Lambs, which had a similar controversy around it. That probably is what really... And so maybe there was just some sort of concerted effort, like, let's watch out for these movies

that sort of paint LGBT people as demented or psychotic or anything like that. I think Silence of the Lambs, especially with how revered it was and winning all the Oscars, that was... It is crazy that they protested filming. That police had to be at like on set to to stop them from interrupting filming. Which also only

helped this movie. Like it definitely made the movie feel like a hot item by the time it came out. Yeah. I mean it does feel dated some of the

stuff like I would be you know embarrassed especially now even when I first watched it then more than when I first watched it. But it gets into an

interesting debate about representation. I'm obviously very pro the idea of more positive representation of, or not positive, but representation of people we don't see. But there's some people who think that you need to have positive depiction of women and positive depiction of black people. That they should only be these paragons of women. Yeah, and I don't follow that idea. I think it's better just to have complicated characters.

I think it just becomes more loaded when this movie is coming out. It's like, well, these are the first major bisexual characters we're getting in a film. And look, they all stab people. And the Beth character, it, I mean, it's interesting because she's so, like, she's sort of, there's something very pathetic about her character, but it's like they paint it, they have it both ways,

that she's this, like, woman in love with this man and that she's this lesbian who's been jilted, which is why she became this person. And so they,'re yeah they really kind of give it to her and and and yeah but it's a it's um poor poor beth yeah she she also yeah her scene where she finally could yeah poor beth and she also gets shot let's not forget um no where she finally confesses like it was what my only woman i ever slept with and i didn't want anyone to find out it is sort of like this sort of like she's too embarrassed

in a way but you also kind of understand you know it's still 1992 so I guess your reading of that depends on what you're reading

of her character if you think that she's guilty like I do and then you're saying you know and then but if you

it's interesting I like this I think I sent you guys something that I wrote and I loved this which was so good we should tweet it that I like this. I think I sent you guys something that I wrote and I love this. Which was so good. We should tweet it out. I love this.

But I love this quote of that. David almost knocked over a water bottle onto Ben's control. I'm excited. Please read the quote. But he got, he said, the scripts that interest me are a little bit edgy and have a little tension between the audience and the film itself. Scripts that interest me are a little bit edgy and have a little tension between the audience and the film itself. And I even think between the filmmaker, between the filmmaker's intentions, I think there's not only room for ambiguity, but there's just so much going on within the film. It really takes the life of its own. And in some ways, he's an intuitive enough filmmaker that the film is smarter than he is, than his intentions, you know?

Like it's like the, what actually ends up happening, like he's able to combine these things. He's like a master provocateur. Yeah. And he just knows how to push buttons in a way that creates meaning that sometimes is intentional

and sometimes isn't. Yeah. But like the thing I love about him is like you never hear anyone have like an indifferent response to a Verhoeven movie. Like there are people who actively hate. Yeah. But like the thing I love about him is like you never hear anyone have like an indifferent response to a Verhoeven movie. Like there are people

who actively hate. Sure. His films. This movie. And people who love them and no one's ever like eh. Like people are like

that's weird. What the fuck is that? Why'd this make me uncomfortable? Or I like love it whole hog or I'm wrestling with it you know.

Right. But he's definitely like someone who's interested in that relationship between the audience and the movie. Mm hmm. And it not being a passive thing i agree yeah totally and then good director yeah and then where he went after this what are you gonna say no i'm not saying anything i mean i like this conversation i'm just listening i wanted to um another we were

talking in the beginning of the conversation about how he uses genre. And this was a really recent revelation for me that I didn't get until I read Adam Neiman's book about showgirls. Which I keep because I know Adam and he's a pal. Oh, God, you should read it. It's really good. I need to read it because we're doing Verhoeven right now. I mean, it'd be nice to have had, but he lives in Toronto. But yes. But anyway, what were you reading his book?

Carry on. Yeah. Sorry. Well, there's a lot of things about the book. And there's great lines about piece of shit or masterpiece. And I feel like you'll start quoting that book in this podcast. But he compared Showgirls to the Gold Diggers movies. To the Showgirls, which I didn't get on a first initial, which totally makes sense. Right. That was Esther House's.

We want to make an old MGM musical. It was Verhoeven's pitch to Esther House was I want to make a Gold Diggers type movie. Yeah. And Esther House was like, great, here's the script. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Your face right now is exactly what happened. But it's also like this Greek tragedy, that movie. Good. It's a woman who just falls deeper and deeper into the depths of hell. To shout out Adam's book, it's just falls deeper and deeper into the depths of hell. To shout out Adam's book. It's called It Doesn't Suck.

Showgirls. With a question mark, right? I believe so. It doesn't suck? No, maybe it doesn't. No, it's just maybe without the question mark. No, it's with a period. It doesn't suck.

And terror bang. And terror bang. And it doesn't suck. It's great. I really recommend it. It's a short book and it's really good you can get it on your kindle

yeah um basic instincts so yeah we covered it out of order well there's the right there because there's

the whole Beth thing yeah is sort of the crux of the middle of the movie right where it's like did she do it uh you know

right right after Rocky dies he goes to see uh Tramiel and through this we have all the he goes to see Tramiel and through this we have all the planting of like all Tramiel's

buddies are former killers of some you know she like collects these people that's great yes and then more about the previous books

right there's the scene where she goes to his apartment after he's been suspended right and it becomes clear that like okay and they still haven't had sex at

this point i believe no they're still in the sort of flirt zone yes they're kind of you know getting right in each other's faces and then she's like real cute modest flirting yeah so let me uh chunk this ice up for you with an ice pick right uh the the coke joke you know it's like now she's like relishing how far he's falling right because her initial temptation is the cigarette case yeah right told you i quit right she's like right she's getting back on all his vices get get them all greased up again um and then yeah yeah so he's now like fully in it goes to see gus at the at the bar after he slept with her gus is like you fucking dummy well right so But they have that first sex

scene right where he's playing the tension of, oh, is she going to stab him too? She gets the silk ties out. And then instead, no, she just sort of flomps onto him. Yeah, she does a flumping. It's a hardcore flumping. And then, yeah, then she goes

there's the rocky car chase goes over to her place. She has this total breakdown where she has no performative or entirely performative, depending on how you look at the film. But this real kind of earnest, broken reckoning of her life and all the people she's lost, which leads to them having a more sensual sex scene. Sure. That we cut past. She says, make love to me. And then it's them sort of like nestling by

the fire and this is when she opens up about dr beth right um so now now douglas has the pieces sure yeah and then he gets the book and she's like i'm done with you book's over right oh uh well our dear friend gus he reads that in the book the. The cop dies in an elevator with his legs sticking out. Yeah. Right? Are we missing any plot stuff here? I'm trying to like. No, I think we've covered all of it, right?

I think so. Pretty much. Now, but we have completely different conclusions. Yeah. That's good. Poor Beth. Yeah. Now I'm more interested though. Well, we're all feel bad for Gus. Yeah. Now I'm more interested, though.

Well, we all feel bad for Gus. Yeah, all he wanted to do was drink some sarsaparilla, ride that mechanical bull. So you think that's Gus getting, I mean, that's Beth knifing Gus, you know, picking, ice picking Gus in the elevator. I agree with you.

You do? I agree with you. I still think that both of them are in on it, but I think Beth is definitely the one who physically killed Gus. But they didn't collaborate. They hate each other. Do you think they collaborated? They were having, oh.

I mean, Anon and Jay hate each other, right? There's like a Rosencrantz and Guildenstern movie of this where it's like the two of them just talking and plotting. Yeah, I don't think her hands are totally clean. You know, I think Beth is doing most of the hands on dirty work. The, the evidence against Beth is, is so sort of open and shut,

right? Like it's like the poncho is there, like in a right, like it's like, it's true. It's, it seems like it could be very planted, right?

When he kills her, it's like, Oh, this all just got tied off really neatly. Yeah. Almost like it was orchestrated by some lady who writes crazy novels and leaves a path of bodies in her wake. Right.

It's a great movie. It is. Yeah. It is a great movie. But then, right. Then when he goes to Catherine, after all this is done,

he doesn't say to anyone like, you know, I think I've got, I've got mixed feelings about shooting that. Yeah. It doesn't mention anything like that. Right. He just goes to her and he's like, can we get together forever? I've got mixed feelings about shooting Beth. Yeah. It doesn't mention anything like that. Right.

He just goes to her and he's like, can we get together forever? Yeah. Like, he's like totally putty in her hands. Like, rather than like, I know you set her up. You know, like. But you think about how loaded that situation is, right? Even if Catherine was never a suspect in this situation, okay? Beth is someone they've both had incredibly intimate relationships with. True.

And now he had to kill her as a response to her going cycle against Catherine. And they're just like, so, what do you think? Montauk, where do you want to move? You know? Like, there would be some grieving time to just process what the fuck just happened. Right, in like February,

and like, go to go to you know tell your right well we do holidays with my parents or your parents well he killed the tourists i mean yeah like it's like it's true you know it's no big deal for him neither one is a saint yeah uh and then they have this sex scene uh-huh uh in his apartment right yeah Where she reaches for the ice pick, but I guess it rolled under the bed. Yeah. Is she like, oh, fuck, there's no ice pick? Or do you think she's like, you know what? No ice pick tonight.

Forget it. I don't know. Maybe it's just the thrill of knowing she could. I like that read, you know, where it's like, you know what? It's a 50-50 shot every time you sleep with Sharon Stone. Is that worth it? She's got to get, she's got to that worth it? She has her kinks too.

She's got a you know, like That's her fuck of the century. She's like, well, there has to be the chance that I murder you for it to be really good. Pick play. Consensual pick play. It's not consensual. Semi-consensual. He is, to me,

like, she just has him in a jar. He knows what he's doing. He knows what he's doing. He knows what he's doing. It's true. But you know what I mean? Like, she has put him in a bottle. Like, she, like, this is it. None of us have seen Fatal Instinct, have we?

Fatal Instinct? Fatal Instinct is the Carl Reiner, like, Mel Brooks-esque parody of the 90s, 80s sex thriller. This is a movie? This is a movie. 1993. Huh.

Directed by Carl Reiner. How do I not know about this? Who's the female lead in it? It's someone who actually had a career. Sherilyn Fenn. Yeah. Which is a funny callback to Fire Walk With Me. I've never seen it either.

Stars Armand Asante. Right. I think he's playing the Douglas. Sean Young is in it. Sean Young. Yes. I think Sean Young is more of the Sharon Stone type. James Remar, the great James Remar,

plays a character called Max Shady, which is a good Carl Reiner movie name. I've never seen it, but I was just thinking there has to be a bit in that movie where she takes out the ice pick and then makes an ice sculpture instead of stabbing him, right? That's like 100% a gag in that movie. Probably.

It's all of 91 minutes long. we're going to do a bonus episode on that yeah yeah yeah the only thing we have left to do is play the box office yeah so this movie was a huge hit uh yes uh 117 million domestic on a $49 million budget. Pretty expensive movie, I guess. He was big at the time. But she only got paid like $500,000? $500,000, yeah. I hope she makes good residuals on this movie.

I wonder if she does. I think she definitely does. I mean, I don't know what kind of a deal she got. I bet you she made good residuals. March 20th, what we're going to do is we're going to guess the box office. I want to point out one thing before that very quickly. Whereas Fatal Attraction was a massive cultural hit, but also got nominated for a bunch of Oscars and was viewed as a legitimate piece of high pulp.

This was very much written off as trash. For one, it came out in March. It did get an editing nomination and a score nomination. I love Jerry Goldstein's score. Both very well deserved. But also got a ton of fucking Razzie nominations. And fuck the Razzies. We've set up a whole scene again. It got three Razzie nominations, which is weird. Gene Triplehorn, are you kidding me?

The Razzies suck. Worst new star, worst male lead. They suck. They got it exactly wrong. Exactly wrong. They're just like if a movie has naked women in it, it must be trashy or whatever. I don't know. Anyway. They hate sexuality.

It opens number one, $15 million, which is very good for the time. And then it just plays throughout the whole spring into the summer. All right. So number two is a comedy, a huge hit comedy. I have to guess the box office. This is a segment. It made $7 million and it's sixth weekend.

It's a huge. It was number one for the last five weekends. 1992? Home Alone? No, it's like a, it's an SNL comedy. Oh, Wayne's World? Wayne's World. I don't know. There you go. I mean, there's too much of a clue. Number three is the greatest movie ever made. Wayne's World 2? No.

No, it's a comedy, a legal comedy. That you love? I think it's arguably the greatest film ever made. Are you being sarcastic here? I guess so, but I do love it. You do love it. It's a legal comedy. Who doesn't love it?

It's like illegal to not like this movie. Maybe Miriam doesn't like it. Illegal to not like this movie? Ben loves it. Ben's nodding vigorously. It's pretty good. It was an Oscar winner. For?

Oh, My Cousin Vinning. My Cousin Vinning. Okay. I mean, who doesn't? I mean, that's just a movie. No, it is true. If I had to watch that movie every day, I'd be okay. To be fair, they presented the bill before Congress, but they have not passed the law yet.

Sure, it's an amendment we're trying to add. Yes, right. Number four is a movie that I would love to do on this podcast one day. It's a cyber thriller. Wayne's World 2? A cyber thriller. The Net? No, earlier. Earlier cyber thriller. Wayne's World 2? A cyber thriller. The Net? No, earlier.

Earlier cyber thriller. Starring James Bond. Starring a Bond. Is it Connery or Brosnan? Brosnan. It's a Brosnan cyber thriller. Based on a novel. Oh, Lawnmower Man? Right, but it's like not actually, it doesn't

have anything to do with the novel. No, it has an occupation and a title. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Based on based on steven i've never seen it it's wild it's not good i don't even know okay like nobody okay we'll do it next week and then number five is another female uh centered film but a nice sort of weepy kind of dramedy Ensemble? Or is it like a star vehicle? Can I guess? Two stars, yes. Steel Magnolias?

It's a good guess. It's in that zone. Fried Green Tomatoes? There we go. I thought it was one of the two. There we go. Which was a huge hit. $82 million in 1992.

About fucking tomatoes. Yeah, my godmother's favorite movie of all time. Every time I talk to her I've never seen it. Have you seen Fried Green Tomatoes? She's from Corsica. Miriam, we gotta get you out of here. My godmother's favorite movie of all time. Every time I talk to her. I've never seen Fred Green Tomatoes. She was in Corsica. Miriam, we gotta get you

out of here. Yes. It was such a pleasure. Thank you for having me. It was a genuine pleasure to have you. You're one of my favorite film writers.

People should look up all your works. We'll post links to the two pieces you sent us. We'll post the one you want people to read. Okay, great. I mean, this will come out in a while, but yes.

For sure. It comes out 2020. All right. Bye. Get out of here. Yes. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe.

Thanks to Ang for Gudo for our social media, Lane Montgomery for our theme song. Good question. I don't know. Why is this? Because he had a basic instinct that she's a murderer. I guess. It's a good call. I don't actually know why it's called that. It's a is this? Because he had a basic instinct that she's a murderer. Yeah. I guess.

I don't know. I don't actually know why it's called. It's a good title. This feels like a great title, but I don't know. What does that mean? It feels like an erotic thriller title generator website would come up with basic instinct. Yeah. All right.

Come on. Wrap it up. Joe Bowen. Yay. Pat Reynolds. Yay. Artwork. Go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit

and as always what I don't I don't okay fine no no

no help me here I don't know there's so many good lines you got this uh the magna

lody the ice sculpture the curl of Reiner. Come up with your own end as always. I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You have to add that in. This is your job.

Add in a fart. Thank you.